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Dassault delivers first Rafale to India

Kashmir still part of India? dont you guys claim that we have some area called POK and that gilgit baltistan is occupied by us as well? So, much for wannabe super power. God, Joshila. Do you ever read your posts and think for a moment that how childish you look. :))

A functioning democracy where a butcher and a former chai wala is the prime minister. A democracy laced with tons of financial scandals. Lets not even go towards it.

Posters like you and romali claim that India is buying Rafaels for China and what not. Little do you guys know that your former airchief iirc was crying last week that how Pakistani block 52s put their SU-30s in danger and that how they need to immediately procure Rafaels to counter Pakistan.

Alchemy brother how many times have i owned your such arguments.

1.What ever Kashmir you occupy was taken from the Maharaja's army,not from IndianArmy.You have tried thrice to take on Indian army in Kashmir and have yourself pummeled to submission.

2.A Chaiwala rising upto the highest office in the country actually depicts how successful a democracy is,ofcourse you wont understand,because you have never experienced a democracy.

Modi must be giving Pakistans like you nightmares,thats why you resort to name calling.If he is so hated in Pakistan i am sure he is doing good for India.

3.Your block 52s are a laughing matter.F 16 Block 60s were rejected by the IAF.And you again trying to twist words Alchemy.Not a good habit sir.The F 16s is the only capable fighter in the PAF and the only when which can seriously give the SU 30s MKIs some resistance,as the JF 17 is a very basic 4th Gen fighter.
 
What a bitter Indian you have become. I bet you don't even read half the crap you write.

That's why I never believe the BS that spouts about Pakistan from Indians who have never been there, let alone any other connections that they have which paints this Warped picture.

Yes is there still a security risk, of course but it has diminished considerably and many Pakiatanis are now going back home for holidays and everything feels "normal" - that's what people are saying on the ground who are going.

So spare us the BS about being 1 of the most unstable places, it's not. It's not
Libya, Iraq or Syria.

Worry about your own problems which are
Much more than Pakistan and where Hindu nationalists have much political power.

You know before pointing fingers at India look at your own country.Whatever problems we may have we are far ahead in security.Pakistan cant hold a cricket match or even a Davis cup tie and you talk about security situation of India where international events are regularly held.

It doesnt matter what Indians or Pakistanis say about themselves or each other,what matters is the perception of neutrals and right now its quite clear which country is perceived to have better security.I am not even going into other things like economy etc.
 
One who practices jingoism. I no think you one.

Yeah, it sucks actually to not have an exact identity you can be biased about. Abbu Pakistani thai, Ummi min il Imarat, Brought up English, Sotia mea e din Romania und jetzt bin ich Deutsch.

Its fun though cuz then I can be an allround racist without reprocussions.
 
Yes Akhand Bharat sounds like a great idea - lets take over territory where bombs go off left, right and centre every 5 minutes. No one other that Indian versions of Zaid Hamid even mention Akhand Bharat anymore and with good reason - who on earth would want to acquire one of the most unstable bits of land on earth? No thanks, most Indians would rather let the Pakistanis fight that battle for the next umpteen years on their own and stay out of it all.

From one of the best Indian posters I had come across on any forum, reduced nowadays to a chest thumping childish whiner like joshila bhai saheb...pity.

:/
 
From one of the best Indian posters I had come across on any forum, reduced nowadays to a chest thumping childish whiner like joshila bhai saheb...pity.

:/

I like [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION] too. Lets say people have their moments where they become who they are not.
 
Calling me names wont change the fact that Pakistan cant even hold a major cricket match or even a Davis cup tie.I am not saying that,thats the real situation or is it anything different?Is that also Indian propoganda?

Who goes where for holidays or says what isnt going to make much difference in the eyes of the world.So you can stop talking about it.

Again,our problems are far lesser than Pakistan's and we are working towards solving them.

Our economy is growing the fastest in the world.bringing millions of of poverty every year.

Btw when did Pakistan have its last census?Any idea?

Yes India is a first world country.

Countries like Canada and Germany envy its development.


Mubarak ho apko :afridi
 
lol 75% of India's force structure is Pakistan specific. The weaponry is largely pakistan specific..you may have bought the propaganda but we cant afford to do that.

by the way you made a comment about the jf17 being reverse engineered. care to elaborate?

lol Buddy like I said before your country is self destructing, no one takes Pakistan seriously in the international scene. Your downfall is your obsession with India; India this India that, had you spent half the amount of time you obsess over India on yourself you wouldn't be a mess you are right now. LOL dont even get me started on your ching chong madeJF17, however if it makes you feel better YES JF17 is enough to kick India's butt and take back Kashmir :angel:
 
Get a life Romali_rotti. You are at the height of hypocrisy with your 13,706 posts on a Pakistani forum...who is obsessed with whom?
 
Get a life Romali_rotti. You are at the height of hypocrisy with your 13,706 posts on a Pakistani forum...who is obsessed with whom?
You should do what I did. Add them to ignore list and you won't have to waste a second reading their meaningless posts.
 
Get a life Romali_rotti. You are at the height of hypocrisy with your 13,706 posts on a Pakistani forum...who is obsessed with whom?

This is the problem, this is why Pakistan will never go anywhere. Since independence what has Pakistan's notable achievement been ? When someone is giving you constructive criticism you don't want to listen to it. Do I get any benefit out of mocking Pakistan ? NO, I say it like how I see it, it is nothing personal. AM I saying India is greatest country in the world ? NO, we have our own issues and that too a lot of it but we are progressing and have achieved much since Independence.
 
lol Buddy like I said before your country is self destructing, no one takes Pakistan seriously in the international scene. Your downfall is your obsession with India; India this India that, had you spent half the amount of time you obsess over India on yourself you wouldn't be a mess you are right now. LOL dont even get me started on your ching chong madeJF17, however if it makes you feel better YES JF17 is enough to kick India's butt and take back Kashmir :angel:

Like I said care to elaborate? Just proves you know sweet ef all about military or aircraft matters. As for being obsessed with India lol. Says an Indian on a Pakistani forum. Now just go away before your made to look even more stupid.
 
This is the problem, this is why Pakistan will never go anywhere. Since independence what has Pakistan's notable achievement been ? When someone is giving you constructive criticism you don't want to listen to it. Do I get any benefit out of mocking Pakistan ? NO, I say it like how I see it, it is nothing personal. AM I saying India is greatest country in the world ? NO, we have our own issues and that too a lot of it but we are progressing and have achieved much since Independence.

Really but how about they don't want your bakwaas so called constructive criticism.

Pakistan is progressing, maybe at a slower pace. But it doesn't need the advice of Bharati blind nationalists.

Worry about your 500 million Indians who are struggling to feed themselves or those millions sleeping on the footpaths in the major cities. Thats constructive criticism. Build enough toilets so they don't have to crap all over the place.

That's constructive criticism. Bye.
 
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Like I said care to elaborate? Just proves you know sweet ef all about military or aircraft matters. As for being obsessed with India lol. Says an Indian on a Pakistani forum. Now just go away before your made to look even more stupid.


Yeah I know sweet EF ALL, your JF17 that flies on a Russian engine ? lol.... What part exactly has Pakistan done on this aircraft? I know ching chong has reverse engineered whatever they could, but what about Pakistan.... Indian on a Pakistani forum sure will talk about how he sees things, you don't like it ? that's badluck for you because the Mods certainly haven't banned me so freedom of speech is alive and kicking..
 
Yeah I know sweet EF ALL, your JF17 that flies on a Russian engine ? lol.... What part exactly has Pakistan done on this aircraft? I know ching chong has reverse engineered whatever they could, but what about Pakistan.... Indian on a Pakistani forum sure will talk about how he sees things, you don't like it ? that's badluck for you because the Mods certainly haven't banned me so freedom of speech is alive and kicking..

Like I said before if you can't be bothered to read and do your research I suggest you beg someone else for a spoon feeding. And please stop being racist. I know India is one of the most racist country's around but have some shame. Your posts are laughable. I mean really lol....
 
Fact remains that we can build 2-3 Tejas aircraft for the price of 1 Rafale. And quantity comes with its own quality as they say.

I knew the deal was scuppered the moment it was downgraded from 126 to 36. The Indian Government are clearly looking to provide Dassault an honourable way out. Sooner or later the latter are going to turn around and ask for more money, time and investment; at which point India will just say that this is too much trouble for just 36 frames and walk away.

A few more Flankers and the long delayed Tejas are all we can look forward to in the coming years, as we watch whole squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s leave the fleet. The GoI and the IAF have messed up spectacularly along the way somewhere in this whole thing; where there was a complete overhaul needed they are happy to just throw a spanner in the works. While that may be enough for Pakistan, it's certainly not going to do us any good if/when we god forbid get into an aerial conflict with the Chinese.
 
Fact remains that we can build 2-3 Tejas aircraft for the price of 1 Rafale. And quantity comes with its own quality as they say.

I knew the deal was scuppered the moment it was downgraded from 126 to 36. The Indian Government are clearly looking to provide Dassault an honourable way out. Sooner or later the latter are going to turn around and ask for more money, time and investment; at which point India will just say that this is too much trouble for just 36 frames and walk away.

A few more Flankers and the long delayed Tejas are all we can look forward to in the coming years, as we watch whole squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s leave the fleet. The GoI and the IAF have messed up spectacularly along the way somewhere in this whole thing; where there was a complete overhaul needed they are happy to just throw a spanner in the works. While that may be enough for Pakistan, it's certainly not going to do us any good if/when we god forbid get into an aerial conflict with the Chinese.

India also has orders for russian PAK-FAs which, admittedly, are technologically disappointing (far behind China's incoming J-20s in terms of stealth).
 
I read this piece last year, don't know if new infos have been released.

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2014/03/j-20-program-update.html

We'll have to wait for tangible info but, even if not j-20, it's only a matter of time before the russians become obsolete in stealth tech with china overtaking their market.
You do know that China hasnt been able to make a single functioning Jet engine yet while Russia has been making jets for many years now.

Do you have any credible source which claims that Chinese tech will overtake Russians and that Russian tech will become obsolete?

Russian military tech till this day competes with the NATO/US tech and thats why Russia still holds its military edge in Europe.

The best jet in the PLAAF is not any Chinese manufactured jet but a version of the Su 35 that the Chinese are buying.
 
You do know that China hasnt been able to make a single functioning Jet engine yet while Russia has been making jets for many years now.

Do you have any credible source which claims that Chinese tech will overtake Russians and that Russian tech will become obsolete?

Russian military tech till this day competes with the NATO/US tech and thats why Russia still holds its military edge in Europe.

The best jet in the PLAAF is not any Chinese manufactured jet but a version of the Su 35 that the Chinese are buying.

Russian jet engines which can't even last 1000 hours (https://veuwer.com/i/30mv.jpg)? Let's be honest here, russian tech is far behind NATO tech. The eurofighter or the F-22 are a lot more likely to escape detection on most SAM defense system simply because they can reach higher top speeds and have better stealth tech.

There is nothing in russian tech that the chinese can't already copy and improve. I don't have a source because it's only speculation on my part but time will tell, I think the j-20s are due for service before the end of the decade.
 
Russian jet engines which can't even last 1000 hours (https://veuwer.com/i/30mv.jpg)? Let's be honest here, russian tech is far behind NATO tech. The eurofighter or the F-22 are a lot more likely to escape detection on most SAM defense system simply because they can reach higher top speeds and have better stealth tech.

The MIGs and Sukhois have took on the NATO jets and done pretty well.The Russian engines with their thrust vectoring more than a match for NATO jets.

The Russians have also made break throughs with Plasma Stealth.

The PAK FA will have better stealth than any existing plane except the F 22.But the PAK FA will be far more manuverable plus they will be using SLATS L band radars in addition to the X band radars which will help detect any stealth aircraft.
There is nothing in russian tech that the chinese can't already copy and improve.

Which is why Russia isnt selling them hi tech stuff anymore and colloborating with India.

I don't have a source because it's only speculation on my part but time will tell, I think the j-20s are due for service before the end of the decade.

Well if its your own speculation then i have nothing to say.
 
The MIGs and Sukhois have took on the NATO jets and done pretty well.The Russian engines with their thrust vectoring more than a match for NATO jets.

The Russians have also made break throughs with Plasma Stealth.

The PAK FA will have better stealth than any existing plane except the F 22.But the PAK FA will be far more manuverable plus they will be using SLATS L band radars in addition to the X band radars which will help detect any stealth aircraft.


Which is why Russia isnt selling them hi tech stuff anymore and colloborating with India.



Well if its your own speculation then i have nothing to say.

This assumes that fifth gen stealth fighters are made for dogfights when they are mostly destined to escape surface to air missile system. And, because of improvement in radar tech, they'll always be more useful when a strong nation attacks a weak one (like us vs iraq).

Due to increasing integration between planes, it's probably better to have light to midsize planes with advanced detection system and then stealth and speed only fifth gen planes. It's pretty much useless to have planes like the PAK-FA with these advanced radars because those same radars defeat the purpose of having stealth in the first place by making the plane more vulnerable (unless, again, you are fighting against a weaker nation).
 
The stat/fact that matters is that Russia have never built a new aircraft (from scratch) since the fall of the Soviet Union a quarter of a century ago. The bestsellers in the Su-27s and the MiG-29s all saw their inceptions in the Soviet era.

The PAKFA is the first fighter jet that has seen its beginnings this side of the Cold War. The last thing we want is for it to fall through as well, in which case our Air Force can just stick white flags in the missile bays of whatever aircraft we have left.
 
Due to increasing integration between planes, it's probably better to have light to midsize planes with advanced detection system and then stealth and speed only fifth gen planes. It's pretty much useless to have planes like the PAK-FA with these advanced radars because those same radars defeat the purpose of having stealth in the first place by making the plane more vulnerable (unless, again, you are fighting against a weaker nation).

Here's my question. If an American stealth plane and a Russian stealth plane are flying head-on toward each other, who (doesn't) see who? In the default scenario won't both of them have no idea about the incoming threat and go SMACK?
 
The stat/fact that matters is that Russia have never built a new aircraft (from scratch) since the fall of the Soviet Union a quarter of a century ago. The bestsellers in the Su-27s and the MiG-29s all saw their inceptions in the Soviet era.

The PAKFA is the first fighter jet that has seen its beginnings this side of the Cold War. The last thing we want is for it to fall through as well, in which case our Air Force can just stick white flags in the missile bays of whatever aircraft we have left.
TBH the PAK FA starts production next year.

India was also offered the F 35 and was asked to join as a partner.
 
India was also offered the F 35 and was asked to join as a partner.

The F-35 was a trainwreck right from the start. Glad we didn't dive in, and the chances of us collaborating with America were slim to none in the first place. You don't buy their planes, you buy their foreign policy and associated sanctions as the Pakistanis have found out the hard way over the years gone by.

Then again, what hope were the foreign policies of the Eurocanards that were part of the MMRCA? Would Dassault and France continue to supply weapons to us should we get into an aerial war with China? Would the UK have done so with the Eurofighter? What about tiny Sweden with their Gripen? Would they have sided with us vs China? Fat chance.

Eurocanards are only good for being American sidekicks in their endless pursuit of mopping up the third world, one country at a time: Libya, Syria, you name it.

The sooner we make our own stuff, Tejas or otherwise, the better.
 
Here's my question. If an American stealth plane and a Russian stealth plane are flying head-on toward each other, who (doesn't) see who? In the default scenario won't both of them have no idea about the incoming threat and go SMACK?

Stealth is not full-proof, if the planes are so close then they detect each other. Or at least since American system is more advanced the Russian plane is detected earlier.
 
The MIGs and Sukhois have took on the NATO jets and done pretty well.The Russian engines with their thrust vectoring more than a match for NATO jets.

The Russians have also made break throughs with Plasma Stealth.

The PAK FA will have better stealth than any existing plane except the F 22.But the PAK FA will be far more manuverable plus they will be using SLATS L band radars in addition to the X band radars which will help detect any stealth aircraft.


Which is why Russia isnt selling them hi tech stuff anymore and colloborating with India.



Well if its your own speculation then i have nothing to say.

Mnnnh..could you tell me what the kill record between the migs and nato aircraft are? Say f15 vs mig 29 etc...

Also I see your still harping on about the pakfa an aircraft that the IAF don't want and neither do the Russians. They are going to make 12 and that's it unless you coff of millions of bucks for a dead duck..

Your best option is the Rafael or the SU35 and the super sukhoi upgrade. It's cheaper and can take on most aircraft in both Chinese and Pakistani airforce's. ..

Forget the pakfa you have a better chance of getting the f35 or the new Japanese stealth fighter..
 
Strange Rafale Deal and Other Murky Acquisitions

Decision making in India as regards military equipment acquisitions has always been opaque, murky and somewhat enigmatic. The apparent arbitrariness of decisions and technology choices, not to mention actual skulduggery, has long opened the doors to suspicion and all manners of conspiracy. In an effort to make the process more transparent and hopefully less open to doubts about corruption, a Defence Procurement Policy with set procedures has been in place now for several years, having gone through multiple revisions supposedly to improve the policy framework and keep pace with changing technological and arms trade scenarios in India and around the world.

However, given the bureaucratic tangle that is the dominant characteristic of governance in India, not excluding in military matters, and notwithstanding the supposed supremacy of the political leadership, the successive avatars of the Defence Procurement Policy have only added more complexity and haziness, making decision-making even more tardy and opaque.

The deal to acquire Rafale fighters from France is the most recent example of the notoriously labyrinthine, expensive and ultimately ineffective defence acquisition process in India. The long-pending deal for outright purchase of 36 fighters from France through a government-to-government agreement, the muddled final outcome of an even longer and more tortured process to acquire 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), was expected to be clinched during French President Francois Hollande’s recent visit to India as chief guest at the Republic Day Parade, but was not, due to still pending financial negotiations.

Confusion prevailed in New Delhi even while president Hollande was still in India, as Government spokespersons first said an Inter-government Agreement (IGA) had been signed, but later recanted and said only an MoU had been signed, and tried to explain away the embarrassment by claiming the MoU nevertheless marked an important step. An MoU towards an Agreement towards a Deal! Both governments clearly want to garner whatever headlines and brownie points can be garnered by making repeated announcements, first by India declaring it had selected the Rafale, then by Hollande and PM Modi in Paris during the latter’s visit, and then by both during the former’s visit to India. Yet the deal still seems far away and getting mired in uncertainty by the day.

There may even be more to this than simple confusion, going by other recent moves and announcements by the Modi government, especially by the increasingly headstrong Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. These suggest that some new thinking about military hardware procurement may be underway and unfolding gradually. And the portents are from happy.

Whimsical decision

The abrupt decision mid-2015 by the Modi Government to drastically scale down the MMRCA acquisition from 126 to a mere 36 Rafale aircraft came as a total surprise. More so the reason Manohar Parrikar advanced, stating that the financial burden was way too much and would hamper other Indian military modernization plans, and that the earlier decision to acquire 126 aircraft was “unviable” and “not necessary,” further suggesting that it had been taken by the previous UPA government without adequate consideration of all the factors. “I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don’t because I can’t afford it. First I can’t afford it and second I don’t need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required.” (Interview to Indian Express, May 31, 2015). The Defence Minister, with all the authority that position carries, stated that the new decision to acquire only 36 Rafales in fly-away condition was taken to meet “the urgent requirement” of the Indian Air Force and the fighters would be used only for “strategic purposes” since they were not, in any case, a replacement for the retiring MiG-21, the gap left by which would be filled by the indigenous LCA. To sum up, Mr.Parrikar’s contention was that the earlier decision was completely wrong, that the Rafales were not really required, but that the 36 Rafales were purely a stop-gap arrangement, only to help the IAF overcome immediate aircraft shortages.

The Minister perhaps felt that his remarks would help clear the air, bring in more transparency, and bolster his image and that of his government as being bold, unafraid, decisive and unhesitant about taking tough decisions. In fact the explanation, if taken as a true reflection of the government’s considered opinion, is an astonishing indictment of the entire institutional mechanism of defence procurement and, after years of periodically revised and structured defence procurement policies, moves in the retrograde direction of re-establishing arbitrariness and whimsy as key decision-making parameters in defence acquisition.

Are we to now understand that all those years the IAF took to analyze its current status and future requirements, framed its General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) based on which it issued the global tender or Request for Proposals (RfP) were all not thought through and a waste of time? Earlier the IAF had framed its requirements for a multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA), then revised this to a “medium” or MMRCA based on its requirement for a multi-role aircraft (Dassault calls Rafale an “omni-role” fighter) with a stress on its deep-penetration strike function in a slot between the lighter MiG 21 or Tejas primarily playing an interceptor role and the heavier SU30-MKI for air superiority. Did the IAF really err in this assessment of its requirement? By what process did Raksha Mantri (RM) revise this requirement and decide that it was “not necessary”? Was the IAF fully on board, did the Defence Acquisition Council get to hear different opinions? Or was it purely a financial decision, in which case RM’s remarks quoted above were incorrect? In fact, even after the RM’s announcement of curtailing Rafale purchase to 36 or 2 squadrons’ worth, the IAF Chief reiterated the requirement for at least 6 squadrons or 108 MMRCA fighters!

IAF in trouble again

This decision leaves the IAF once again in a bad position. LCA Tejas, even the avowedly underpowered Mark1, is still several years away from induction and serious work on Mark-2 has barely begun. The redoubtable Mig 21s are virtually finished, and the few remaining aircraft are on their last legs and will certainly take the lives of a few more young pilots before that chapter is finally closed. The medium strike aircraft, whether Jaguars or Mig 27s, and the earlier MCRA such as the Mirage 2000 are also on the way out --- they are ageing, have already been upgraded to prolong their usefulness and life, are too few in number and facing numerous problems of their own.

The IAF once again has (or soon will have, if the Rafale deal finally comes through) a couple of squadrons of one type of aircraft, along with a few squadrons of so many different aircraft types. As repeatedly underlined in these columns, this is putting a great strain on IAF ground personnel who have to service and maintain so many different aircraft types, and carry a mind-bogglingly diverse inventory of spares. With just 2 squadrons of Rafales, therefore, the Indian Air Force will continue to be, not a well-organized and efficient force with a few types of aircraft for well-defined roles, but like a zoo with a few animals of each type for onlookers to look at and admire!

And even this is still shrouded in uncertainty. Last year, RM said only the financial aspects needed to be ironed out, and this would be done in 2-3 months. Many months have gone by, and it was announced during President Hollande’s visit that the “final negotiations” would take a further few months!

This is indeed a strange way to conduct a procurement process. When “L1,” i.e. the lowest bidder among technically suitable candidates is selected, this is normally supposed to include full consideration of the cost aspect as well. Or it should! But the way India conducts tender evaluations and contract finalization, “final price negotiations” are conducted after L1 has been selected and thereafter, prolonged negotiations take place over base price, life-cycle costs, spares and maintenance, offsets etc. Surely, all of these should have been part of the tender documents and should have been factored-in when comparing the bids. In India, this adds yet another enormously frustrating, time-consuming process to an already stretched-out procedure, adds further cost to the final deal, not to mention the additional burden heaped on the IAF and the added risk to national security. More bureaucracy, more confounding procedures, more delays, more cost! When the MMRCA deal was first spoken about, the total cost for 126 aircraft, the “mother of all defence deals” was estimated to be around $10-12 billion. Today India is buying 36 Rafales for around the same amount!

Dassault is pushing for higher price obviously because India has already declared its choice in favour of the Rafale. With no serious domestic manufacture in India possible since only 36 aircraft are being bought, offsets too become difficult and spares too will have to be bought outright, all pushing costs up further.

To add to all the confusion, RM Parrikar recently said that a few more squadrons worth of MMRCA may be added to the IAF, which may or may not be Rafales but some other aircraft!

When the MMRCA acquisition was in the process of being delineated, 6 aircraft had been short-listed, of which 4 had been rejected as not meeting the essential requirements. The Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale were both subjected to rigorous field tests under different conditions under which the IAF operated, after which Rafale was selected. So if additional Rafales are not being contemplated, which other aircraft will match the requirements? If just any other aircraft will do, then why was such a strict short-listing done earlier? More questions, no satisfactory answers.

Fake in India?

With the MMRCA tender having been scrapped, all the earlier aspirants for what was expected to be a humongous deal are hovering in the Indian skies once again. Since the Modi government seems keen to push its ‘Make in India’ campaign, and there is no scope for manufacture of Rafales in India with just 36 aircraft being bought, international aviation majors are sensing an opportunity. Boeing is running full-page ads in newspapers once again, asking why any country should be interested in a partnership with a $5 billion firm (Saab) when a $75 billion firm (Boeing) is offering its services? Readers may remember that Boeing had earlier offered its capable but 30 year-old F/A18 and is now pushing this for co-production under the Modi Government’s much touted ‘Make in India’ banner.

Saab continues to push its Gripen, the Eurofighter is ever present, and many other aircraft majors are sure to soon start circling the skies.

Nor are they alone. Indian engineering majors such as Tatas, L&T and johny-come-lately Reliance are racing to form partnerships with foreign aviation companies to ‘Make in India.’ And just last week, the indefatigable RM Manohar Parrikar declared that soon India will start making fighter aircraft in India through the private sector, obviously with international partners. As everybody knows, and as many commentators including retired senior Air Force officers have pointed out, none of these Indian firms have the necessary capabilities to contribute to development of aircraft systems and they can and will remain only assemblers or sub-contractors. As argued earlier in these columns, India needs a well thought-out strategic programme to acquire independent design-development capability which will not come through co-production alone. India has had a long history of licensed production but, in the absence of a concerted plan, has failed to build such capability. ‘Make in India’ is just an offer to provide cheap labour, and does not even realize that there is a shortage of skilled workforce for an advanced aviation industry. At present, only defence PSUs can provide even such facilities and effort can, and should, then be made to convert manufacturing know-how to design-development capacity.

Unfortunately, the powers that be have not learned this lesson even the hard way. When PM Modi visited Russia recently, he was accompanied by a bevy of these Indian private sector engineering majors hoping to snare a contract for ‘making in India’ the Kamov 226 light utility helicopters being negotiated with Russia. All of them returned empty handed because, much to the discomfiture of the Indian government and largely ignored by the pink press and corporate media, Russia said it would work with the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)!

Artificial methods to grandfather sweet deals for chosen Indian corporates, with whatever other gratifications are on offer, are no way to build genuine independent capability to develop and manufacture advanced defence hardware. ‘Make in India’ should only be about some people making money. It should be a route to self-reliance, which it is not under the present dispensation.

http://newsclick.in/india/strange-rafale-deal-and-other-murky-acquisitions
 
The whole deal has shown India's bosssyness as a buyer in the defense market. The most sort after country for all major defense equps suppliers today.
 
Originally India claimed that they would buy 126 aircraft for $8billion. Now the French want 12 billion euros (more than $13bn) for 36 jets. You could get double the number of Typhoon jets for that money (or 3 or 4 times the number of F-16s).

Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets' Price
NEW DELHI: Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.

An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault-which manufactures the aircraft-has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion euros).

“Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have categorically told them to come down to nearly 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told Express. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande visit to New Delhi as chief guest for the during Republic Day. In a joint statement on January 25, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in “a couple of days”. Dassault Aviation had also said it expected a complete agreement on the planes in four weeks.

Dassault negotiators are believed to have committed setting up a production line in India, but MoD officials are sticking to serious cost bargaining. Moreover, France has also apparently agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies such as Dassault will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets. From the beginning, MoD was eyeing at least 20 per cent less per aircraft compared to what was offered in the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal during UPA-II.

The 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond visual range missiles and defensive weapon systems. During his France visit, the Prime Minister had announced the decision to buy 36 Rafale jets, citing operational necessity of IAF, which is down to 34 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.
5

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...ring-Jets-Price/2016/02/22/article3289833.ece
 
This embarrassing fiasco continues.

French Rafale stuck in negotiation; US firms Boeing, Lockheed Martin raises pitch for fighters for IA

US defence secretary Ashton Carter will be in India from April 10-12 and is to meet India's defence minister Manohar Parrikar on April 12.

Carter's visit coincides with the ongoing negotiations between India and France for over Rs 60,000 crore Rafale fighter jets deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The negotiations over price has failed to conclude two months after India and France signed an "inter-governmental agreement" on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale purchase during French president Francois Hollande's visit to India in January. Meanwhile, with more complexities remain to be worked out on Rafale like the liability clauses that could bring not just the aircraft manufacturing firm Dassault aviation but the French government too, under the fold of accountability, two US firms, Boeing and Lockheed Martin have raised their pitch to manufacture fighters for IAF.

Sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said that both the firms, earlier this week made elaborate presentations before the Indian officials. US department of defence headquarter Pentagon's Director for International Cooperation Keith Webster too is in India. And one senior official privy to the US pitch on fighter jets said that Webster too was present at the time the two US firms were meeting the MoD officials. The Indian government has been non-committal on a fixed time frame for buying the Rafale jets.

Whereas, according to a Parliament question reply in March, the government declared that it had signed Rs 36,944.48 crore worth defence contracts in past six months, Rafale is nowhere in sight yet. Giving further credence to the fact that India May be considering other options than Rafale, IAF vice chief BS Dhanoa, on March 10, too had said that more MMRCA that just 36 Rafale jets will be needed and "other firms Lockheed Martin, Boeing and the Swedish firm Saab" have shared their proposals to the MoD .

Dhanoa admitted that the current strength of only 33 fighter squadrons in IAF, instead of the desired 42 was a concern and India was "not ready for a two front war" , namely with Pakistan and China together.


http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...rtin-raises-pitch-for-fighters-for-ia-2199111
 
Rafale deal cleared, to be signed on Friday

The government has cleared the much anticipated deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets which will cost 7.878 billion euros (Rs 59,630 crore) and will be signed on Friday in the presence of French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian.

Defence sources said that deal for the aircraft, the first fighter jet deal in 20 years, comes with a saving of nearly 750 million euros (Rs 56,000 crore) than the United Progressive Alliance era one, which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 per cent offset clause.

This means business worth at least 3 billion euros (Rs 22,300 crore) for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating hundreds of jobs in India through offsets.

The Rafale fighter jets, deliveries of which will start in 36 months and finished in 66 months from the date contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

Sources said the government on Wednesday formally cleared the Inter Governmental Agreement to be signed on Friday in the presence of Drian who arrives on Thursday evening along with chief executive officers of Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA and top government officials.

The contract for the deal was already cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security earlier. The price of the contract was fixed in May, sources said.

Sources said the ‘vanila price’ (just the 36 aircraft) is about 3.42 billion euros (Rs 25,535 crore). The armaments cost about 710 million euros (Rs 53,000 crore) while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet mounted displays, will cost 1,700 million euros (Rs 12,700 crore).

Rest of the cost includes spare parts, maintenance among others.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/rafale-deal-cleared-to-be-signed-on-friday/20160921.htm

Seems India got them for cheap.
 
India should invest in their own production, waste of money buying these foreign craps. They'll probably never put to use anyway.
 
India should invest in their own production, waste of money buying these foreign craps. They'll probably never put to use anyway.

Its nice to have these built at home which can provide tremendous amount of jobs to educated work force.

If building at home these fighters was easy, many countries would have attempted it.

They may never be used. But for the next decade, India can breath easy as their older fleet of planes were too old.
 
Interesting developments.

India offers to buy 200 foreign combat jets - if they're Made-in-India

Sat Oct 29, 2016 | 4:30 AM EDT

By Sanjeev Miglani | NEW DELHI

India is offering to buy hundreds of fighter planes from foreign manufacturers - as long as the jets are made in India and with a local partner, air force officials say.

A deal for 200 single-engine planes produced in India - which the air force says could rise to 300 as it fully phases out aging Soviet-era aircraft - could be worth anything from $13-$15 billion, experts say, potentially one of the country's biggest military aircraft deals.

After a deal to buy high-end Rafale planes from France's Dassault was scaled back to just 36 jets last month, the Indian Air Force is desperately trying to speed up other acquisitions and arrest a fall in operational strength, now a third less than required to face both China and Pakistan.

But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration wants any further military planes to be built in India with an Indian partner to kickstart a domestic aircraft industry, and end an expensive addiction to imports.

Lockheed Martin said it is interested in setting up a production line for its F-16 plane in India for not just the Indian military, but also for export.

And Sweden's Saab has offered a rival production line for its Gripen aircraft, setting up an early contest for one of the biggest military plane deals in play.

"The immediate shortfall is 200. That would be the minimum we would be looking at," said an air officer briefed on the Make-in-India plans under which a foreign manufacturer will partner local firms to build the aircraft with technology transfer.

India's defense ministry has written to several companies asking if they would be willing to set up an assembly line for single-engine fighter planes in India and the amount of technology transfer that would happen, another government source said.

"We are testing the waters, testing the foreign firms' willingness to move production here and to find out their expectations," the person said.

OPERATIONAL GAPS

India's air force originally planned for 126 Rafale twin-engine fighters from Dassault, but the two sides could not agree on the terms of local production with a state-run Indian firm and settled for 36 planes in a fly-away condition.

Adding to the military's problems is India's three-decade effort to build a single-engine fighter of its own which was meant to be the backbone of the air force. Only two of those Light Combat Aircraft, called Tejas, have been delivered to the air force which has ordered 140 of them.

The Indian Air Force is down to 32 operational squadrons compared with the 45 it has said are necessary, and in March the vice chief Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa told parliament's defense committee that it didn't have the operational strength to fight a two front war against China and Pakistan.

JET MAKERS RESPOND

Saab said it was ready to not only produce its frontline Gripen fighter in India, but help build a local aviation industry base.

"We are very experienced in transfer of technology – our way of working involves extensive cooperation with our partners to establish a complete ecosystem, not just an assembly line," said Jan Widerström, Chairman and Managing Director, Saab India Technologies.

He confirmed Saab had received the letter from the Indian government seeking a fourth generation fighter. A source close to the company said that while there was no minimum order set in stone for it to lay down a production line, they would expect to build at least 100 planes at the facility.

Lockheed Martin said it had responded to the defense ministry's letter with an offer to transfer the entire production of its F-16 fighter to India.

"Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world's only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world's largest fighter aircraft supply chain," Abhay Paranjape, National Executive for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Business Development in India said in an email.

U.S. TOP SUPPLIER

Lockheed's offer comes on the back of expanding U.S.-India military ties in which Washington has emerged as India's top arms supplier in recent years, ousting old ally Russia.

Earlier this year Boeing also offered India its twin-engine F/A-18 Hornets, but the level of technology transfer was not clear.

India has never previously attempted to build a modern aircraft production line, whether military or civilian. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has assembled Russian combat jets including the Su-30, but these are under licensed production.

"We have never had control over technology. This represents the most serious attempt to build a domestic base. A full or a near-full tech transfer lays the ground for further development," said retired Indian air marshal M. Matheswaran, a former adviser at HAL.

He said the Indian government would be looking at producing at least 200 fighters, and then probably some more, to make up for the decades of delay in modernizing the air force.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12T05M
 
Another Indian fighter jet programme/deal down the drain?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India reconsidering 5th generation fighter jet programme with Russia: Sources <a href="https://t.co/Pu0ZR4OnVI">https://t.co/Pu0ZR4OnVI</a> <a href="https://t.co/vq8w0qdw0G">pic.twitter.com/vq8w0qdw0G</a></p>— NDTV (@ndtv) <a href="https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/1015908202779590656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">8 July 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dear Trolls,<br><br>I apologise for my earlier tweet in which I stated Mr 56’s friend’s JV, received 4 Billion US$’s of “off set” contracts.<br><br>I forgot to add the 16 Billion US$ RAFALE “lifecycle” contract &#55357;&#56882;<br><br>20 BILLION US$, is the actual benefit. <br><br>So Sorry!!<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/130000CroreRafaleScam?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#130000CroreRafaleScam</a></p>— Rahul Gandhi (@RahulGandhi) <a href="https://twitter.com/RahulGandhi/status/1022842177406291969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dear Trolls,<br><br>I apologise for my earlier tweet in which I stated Mr 56’s friend’s JV, received 4 Billion US$’s of “off set” contracts.<br><br>I forgot to add the 16 Billion US$ RAFALE “lifecycle” contract ��<br><br>20 BILLION US$, is the actual benefit. <br><br>So Sorry!!<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/130000CroreRafaleScam?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#130000CroreRafaleScam</a></p>— Rahul Gandhi (@RahulGandhi) <a href="https://twitter.com/RahulGandhi/status/1022842177406291969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Can someone explain the context of the tweet.
 
Interesting, and i thought Modi was as clean as a whistle.

no one is clean. just look at the rafale deal from begining, it gt postponded every year and thn revive again with new price tag from france. so thre must be something wrong.
 
no one is clean. just look at the rafale deal from begining, it gt postponded every year and thn revive again with new price tag from france. so thre must be something wrong.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]. You are always in the know about these things, whats going on?
 
Interesting, and i thought Modi was as clean as a whistle.

This is desperation from congress and Rahul Gandhi. They are losing elections after elections. They dont have anything to offer so this is the last desperate attempt to get some leverage.

If Rafale deal was really tainted why didnt congress approached the supreme court to get the deal cancelled.

Rahul Gandhi lied by taking tge name of the french President. France had to issue a official statement to clarify that its President had made no such comments to rahul Gandhi.

Indo French Rafale deal is a Govt to Govt agreement. So unless the french govt took kickbacks...


https://m.timesofindia.com/india/fr...ahuls-allegation/amp_articleshow/65071698.cms


https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...-rafale-aircraft-under-nda-1295288-2018-07-25

Read the two articles.
 
This is desperation from congress and Rahul Gandhi. They are losing elections after elections. They dont have anything to offer so this is the last desperate attempt to get some leverage.

If Rafale deal was really tainted why didnt congress approached the supreme court to get the deal cancelled.

Rahul Gandhi lied by taking tge name of the french President. France had to issue a official statement to clarify that its President had made no such comments to rahul Gandhi.

Indo French Rafale deal is a Govt to Govt agreement. So unless the french govt took kickbacks...


https://m.timesofindia.com/india/fr...ahuls-allegation/amp_articleshow/65071698.cms


https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...-rafale-aircraft-under-nda-1295288-2018-07-25

Read the two articles.

So you are saying no commissions were paid to anyone.
 
Maybe against Modi and co, if commissions have been paid.

Thing is if commisions have been paid in a govt to govt deal then criminal proceedings will be initiated in France as well.

Remember that the aircraft was selected by the congress govt. The agreement was signed by modi govt.
 
Thing is if commisions have been paid in a govt to govt deal then criminal proceedings will be initiated in France as well.

Remember that the aircraft was selected by the congress govt. The agreement was signed by modi govt.

I guess main reason Con-gress trying so hard is thier own leaders are having corruption charges against them running in courts,including Rahul Gandhi.

Just yesterday Karnataka CAG identified scam in school children uniform.
 
Yes India is a first world country.

Countries like Canada and Germany envy its development.


Mubarak ho apko :afridi

He didnt say India is first world. He stated facts. Its the fastest growing economy. Countries are doing everything to invest there. I get that it riles you up but facts are facts.
 
This is desperation from congress and Rahul Gandhi. They are losing elections after elections. They dont have anything to offer so this is the last desperate attempt to get some leverage.

If Rafale deal was really tainted why didnt congress approached the supreme court to get the deal cancelled.

Rahul Gandhi lied by taking tge name of the french President. France had to issue a official statement to clarify that its President had made no such comments to rahul Gandhi.

Indo French Rafale deal is a Govt to Govt agreement. So unless the french govt took kickbacks...


https://m.timesofindia.com/india/fr...ahuls-allegation/amp_articleshow/65071698.cms


https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...-rafale-aircraft-under-nda-1295288-2018-07-25

Read the two articles.

Congress has beaten BJP in two popular states - Punjab alone counts for 2-3 states given its historical leadership of India. Besides in Karnataka BJP has been smashed by Congress.

We all know BJP is losing Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Haryana in next assemlbly electionss.

BJP's time is up.

It is an evil regime which has given rise to hindu terrorism in India.

India must amnd will defeat Islamophobic/Minority hating BJP-RSS nexus.

Killers of Gandhi will never be forgotten.
 
Congress has beaten BJP in two popular states - Punjab alone counts for 2-3 states given its historical leadership of India. Besides in Karnataka BJP has been smashed by Congress.

We all know BJP is losing Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Haryana in next assemlbly electionss.

BJP's time is up.

It is an evil regime which has given rise to hindu terrorism in India.

India must amnd will defeat Islamophobic/Minority hating BJP-RSS nexus.

Killers of Gandhi will never be forgotten.

Punjab is pretty small state and BJP doesnt have much presence there.

Karnatka BJP won 25 more seats than Congress only in congress dictionary its called smashing..lmao..

For a party which ruled country for decades giving CM seat to another party which didnt even won even half of the seats as congress did is biggest embarrassment.
 
Punjab is pretty small state and BJP doesnt have much presence there.

Karnatka BJP won 25 more seats than Congress only in congress dictionary its called smashing..lmao..

For a party which ruled country for decades giving CM seat to another party which didnt even won even half of the seats as congress did is biggest embarrassment.

Its important to keep BJP out of power before it consumes all of India with hindu terrorism and destroys it.

This is why i also support Mahagathbandhan despite not personally like many of these folks.

India must be willing to support anyone to keep this poisonous BJP-RSS nexus out of power which is destroying India's rich social fabric.
 
Its important to keep BJP out of power before it consumes all of India with hindu terrorism and destroys it.

This is why i also support Mahagathbandhan despite not personally like many of these folks.

India must be willing to support anyone to keep this poisonous BJP-RSS nexus out of power which is destroying India's rich social fabric.

What about Mamata banerjee and her TMC killing Hindus in West bengal..looks like you are ok with this?

Same goes for Karnataka/Kerala where many Hindus killed under Congress and CPM..again you are ok with this as well.
 
What about Mamata banerjee and her TMC killing Hindus in West bengal..looks like you are ok with this?

Same goes for Karnataka/Kerala where many Hindus killed under Congress and CPM..again you are ok with this as well.

Looks like you are paer of many RSS whatsapp grouos spreading paranoia among hindus with fake news.
 
Looks like you are paer of many RSS whatsapp grouos spreading paranoia among hindus with fake news.

I am from one of the places where Hindus got killed by extremist Muslim organization.Voters made sure that Congress bites the dust in that area.

Again this is the reason BJP became so big as pseudo seculars brushed off Hindu killings in the name of fake news.Hope you guys don't celebrate when Hindus got killed,i don't when any religion guy got killed however like/dislike i have.
 
Some people are silent on every day lynching of muslims in India.

Only one political party in India comes out publicly in support of rapists and murderers of minorities and that is BJP.

Anyone with a sane mind cannot support BJP in india until he/she shares the same hatred for muslims
 
Some people are silent on every day lynching of muslims in India.

Only one political party in India comes out publicly in support of rapists and murderers of minorities and that is BJP.

Anyone with a sane mind cannot support BJP in india until he/she shares the same hatred for muslims

People are now clubbing every lynching as Muslim lynching while many cases in West bengal/Kerala and even one recently in Karnataka are different cases.But fake seculars for their own agenda club everyhting and blame BJP and let Congress/TMC/CPM etc go scottfree.

Any way you still doesn't care Hindus getting murdered by the looks of your posts.So taking anything you write seriously will be a mistake.

India is the only country where Minorities can Kill majority community people and still get away due to fake secularism.
 
People are now clubbing every lynching as Muslim lynching while many cases in West bengal/Kerala and even one recently in Karnataka are different cases.But fake seculars for their own agenda club everyhting and blame BJP and let Congress/TMC/CPM etc go scottfree.

Any way you still doesn't care Hindus getting murdered by the looks of your posts.So taking anything you write seriously will be a mistake.

India is the only country where Minorities can Kill majority community people and still get away due to fake secularism.

I see youh panicking now and running away from the allegations like the fraudster sanghi Modi does.

Why cant you condemn BJP leaders comin out in full public support of rapists and murderers of muslims? Or do you deny it?

No major political party in india apart from BJP openly supports rape and mob lynching of minorities..
 
I see youh panicking now and running away from the allegations like the fraudster sanghi Modi does.

Why cant you condemn BJP leaders comin out in full public support of rapists and murderers of muslims? Or do you deny it?

No major political party in india apart from BJP openly supports rape and mob lynching of minorities..

I don't want to discuss too much with a person who casually brushes off murdering of Hindus as Whats app rumors as it clearly shows your agenda.
 
I am from one of the places where Hindus got killed by extremist Muslim organization.Voters made sure that Congress bites the dust in that area.

Again this is the reason BJP became so big as pseudo seculars brushed off Hindu killings in the name of fake news.Hope you guys don't celebrate when Hindus got killed,i don't when any religion guy got killed however like/dislike i have.

Which area is that you are referring to where minority killed majority and have got away with it if I may ask ??
 
Which area is that you are referring to where minority killed majority and have got away with it if I may ask ??

Mangalore/Kannur/i guess there are cases in West Bengal as well.

Now tell me any other country in world where Minorities kills Majority and gets away.
 
Why are you now running away from yhr accusation that no political party has ever come in open in support of muslims killing hindus like the way BJP leaders have in suppirt of Kathua rapists and cow vigilantees murderincg muslims in broad daylight all over India?

Mob violence is one thing. Dont be clever and try to equate mob violence with every day lynching of innicent muslims for fake beef/cow smuggling allegations.
 
Why are you now running away from yhr accusation that no political party has ever come in open in support of muslims killing hindus like the way BJP leaders have in suppirt of Kathua rapists and cow vigilantees murderincg muslims in broad daylight all over India?

Mob violence is one thing. Dont be clever and try to equate mob violence with every day lynching of innicent muslims for fake beef/cow smuggling allegations.

I understand you doesn't care about Hindu lives but after whats app rumor now you are bringing mob violence as another excuse to brush of Killings of Hindus.I know the difference between mob violence and Murder.
 
And thank you for making your Islamophobic agenda clear to us [MENTION=147359]TheLastGreatMan[/MENTION] by making the most absurd claim thag in no country do people from majority community get killed in mob violence.

Absurd claims with no evidence. These whatsapp sanghis i tell you. :yk

Shame on you for justifying acts of violence against muslims on the basis if fake whatsapp claims.
 
And thank you for making your Islamophobic agenda clear to us [MENTION=147359]TheLastGreatMan[/MENTION] by making the most absurd claim thag in no country do people from majority community get killed in mob violence.

Absurd claims with no evidence. These whatsapp sanghis i tell you. :yk

Shame on you for justifying acts of violence against muslims on the basis if fake whatsapp claims.

Keep brushing off murders of Hindus and BJP keeps on growing.Looks like you are even happy.
 
DjLQfKAX4AAsMoW.jpg

This is what BJP has made of India- a complete mockery.
A policeman in his uniform bowing to a saffron-clad CM.
Sharam-haya sab bech khayi hai in unpadh gawaron ne.
 
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