Dassault delivers first Rafale to India

[Gabbar Singh]

Looks like the deal may not even happen. The French want more money and India cannot afford to pay. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise - the government's first priority should be the economy, education and healthcare imo. Defence can wait - it's not as if there is an imminent threat, and anyway the nation already has decent defence capabilities.

Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal

NEW DELHI — India may not have the funds to seal the deal with Dassault Aviation to purchase $12 billion Rafale fighter planes, according to an Air Force source.

While India plans to boost hike defense spending by almost 8 percent, defense analysts and military officers say it falls short of expectations and isn't enough to buy fresh weaponry.

India will spend US $40.4 billion on defense in the April 1 2015-March 31 2016 financial year, according to the Feb. 28 proposal to Parliament.

That's an increase of 7.74 percent over the previous year. The previous year's budget went up 12.4 percent.

Finance Minister Arun Jaitley gave no additional funds in the "Capital Account Head" of the budget proposals, which is earmarked to buy fresh weapons. The budget included the same amount as last year: $15.5 billion.

"With the stagnation in capital expenditure, I believe there is very little left in the budget to cater to new contracts," said Laxman Behera, research fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses think tank in New Delhi.

Amit Cowshish, retired Defence Ministry finance adviser and defense analyst, said: "It is unlikely that the allocation [under Capital Account] would cater for only committed liabilities."

Said an Air Force officer: "With no fresh money it is unlikely if we can contract the $12 billion Rafale fighter deal with Dassault Aviation of France, nor buy additional aircraft in the next financial year."

The contract is to be paid in installments, with 15 percent due at the signing of the deal.

At best, a $2.5 billion deal finalized two years ago to purchase attack and heavy lift helicopters from Boeing could be inked as the US company has threatened to hike the price if the deal is delayed, the official added.

"The budget allocation may not be sufficient even for contracted projects as they are carry over from the 2014-15 budget on capital account," said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) promised during that election to modernize defense and meet weapons requirements, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. "The first full budget of the new government announced Feb. 28 is a let down on expectations," he said.

"There are serious concerns over government's commitment to fully budget India's defense and security needs despite statements by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on modernization of the armed forces," he said.

Said Mehta: "Sadly, the budget reflects continuation of the policies of the previous government. For structural changes there has to be greater synergy between the Ministry of Defence and Finance."

Behera said security needs to have support from both the government and lawmakers.

"However, such security needs are to be satisfied within the overall resource availability," he said. "The defense budget 2015-16 has been subject to resource crunch arising out of slowdown in revenue mobilization and greater devolution of resources to the state government."

However, Cowshish said defense still constitutes around 13.88 percent of India's total budget and as such is a major chunk of allocation.

"Defense budget is the second largest single item of expenditure in the non-plan segment of the union budget. One has to keep these facts in view while forming an opinion on whether the allocation is in sync with the promise or not," Cowshish said.

With such a tight defense budget, it remains to be seen which of the ongoing programs will be inked. Nearly $20 billion worth weapons purchase projects are in the mix, including:

• $12 billion to purchase medium multirole fighter jets

• $1.2 billion for six Airbus A330 tankers

• $1.1 billion for 22 Boeing Apache attack helicopters

• $1 billion for 197 light utility helicopters,

• $833 million for 15 Boeing Chinook heavy lift helicopters,

• $600 million for light howitzer guns from BAE Systems

• $200 million for 98 Black Shark torpedoes from WASS

• $350 million for 1,418 Israeli-made thermal imaging sights for T-72 tanks

• $250 million for 262 Barak missiles from Israel Aerospace Industries

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...n-budget-casts-doubt-on-rafale-deal/24377511/

 

[JoniInsafian]

Lol... Indians want quality but can't afford it.... They should make khatara ladda planes...

 

[Saeed]

So Brother Romali roti and over Joshila were getting excited for no reason? )

 

[Romali_rotti]

So Brother Romali roti and over Joshila were getting excited for no reason? )

Yes now how will we defend our side of Kashmir

 

[the Great Khan]

they dont need it. Its a big white elephant. They have enough SU30 fighters, upgraded MIG29's and mirage 2000's to keep us on our toes. Good for pakistan but wont make too much of a difference.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Anyway back to the topic I don't believe this has anything to do with the funds, heck we are country with a 2 trillion dollar GDP... This is more of a bargaining strategy to bring the price down I feel or maybe the eurofighter is playing spoil sport behind the lines with a cheaper deal who knows....

 

[captain.hansolo]

Not sure whether they ll transfer the technology or not.
If its russia, they would be happy to transfer the technology.

we never just buy the planes. we always include a technology transfer clause. it is countries such as saudi arabia that would just purchase the weapons because they lack the infrastructure or the enthusiasm to exploit the technology transfer.

 

[SULTAN]

Looks like the deal may not even happen. The French want more money and India cannot afford to pay. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise - the government's first priority should be the economy, education and healthcare imo. Defence can wait - it's not as if there is an imminent threat, and anyway the nation already has decent defence capabilities.




http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...n-budget-casts-doubt-on-rafale-deal/24377511/

Good news for the whole region.

pretty sure it's the best news for the starving indians who can't even afford to eat.

If this deal would've went thru, even Pak corrupt generals would've wanted more planes they can't afford.

TIME to celebrate

 

[SULTAN]

and lolz at some clowns here suggesting F35's......that's the biggest scam of probably the entire history of militaries.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The deal for Rafale is expected to be signed in April when PM Modi visits France.

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

New Delhi: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.
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The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21731

 

[Bhaijaan]

The deal was signed by Congress, and its only natural for the newer govt to thoroughly review previous policies before signing the deal. These are massive deals, its not like you going to a car showroom and buying one. There are gonna be lots and lots of arguments over various matters, just take the example of the nuclear deal. Its been 10 years already and they are still handling various disputes. Add to that, it is no secret that Britain were hugely disappointed with this and came up with alternate bargain proposals for us to consider their Eurofighter aircrafts.

 

[the Great Khan]

Heard the French are trying to blackmail the Indians by offering an avionics and weapons package to Pakistan for its JF17. Both sides are now playing hardball. This could run for a bit longer even if Modi signs.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Heard the French are trying to blackmail the Indians by offering an avionics and weapons package to Pakistan for its JF17. Both sides are now playing hardball. This could run for a bit longer even if Modi signs.

I have a gut feeling Eurofighter is going to poke its nose in and offer a irresistible offer..

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have a gut feeling Eurofighter is going to poke its nose in and offer a irresistible offer..

They may.The needling issue is that Dassault wants to charge higher for the planes that will be manufactured in India.This will change their overall bid amount which made them the lowest bidder.That may allow Eurofighter to come back.But Dassault cannot afford to lose a $15bn plus a possible re order and future maintenance/spares/upgrade tender.Signs are that Modi will sign the contract in April when he visits France.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Always feel proud that my country buys expensive aircrafts and weapons, and first world nations are competing to sell their stuff to us!! Shows the prestige we enjoy internationally!!

 

[Yossarian]

Always feel proud that my country buys expensive aircrafts and weapons, and first world nations are competing to sell their stuff to us!! Shows the prestige we enjoy internationally!!

If that's what makes you feel proud, then perhaps the foreign manufacturers should put the prices up even higher and make you feel even more proud.

Doctor: "I'll need to give you some local anaethetic first"
CricketCartoons: "Doc, make me feel proud, don't give me local, give me something foreign and expensive!"

 

[the Great Khan]

They may.The needling issue is that Dassault wants to charge higher for the planes that will be manufactured in India.This will change their overall bid amount which made them the lowest bidder.That may allow Eurofighter to come back.But Dassault cannot afford to lose a $15bn plus a possible re order and future maintenance/spares/upgrade tender.Signs are that Modi will sign the contract in April when he visits France.

also they dont want to take any responsibility for the planes built in India. Which was what all the fuss has been about. I ehar that india have caved in with regards to this so its highly likely that the french will finally get a big order for their bird. Personally I would have gone for the typhoon because its cheaper and still fulfils the requirements but I suspect there are plenty of people making plenty of cash on the back of this as the French are known to be great at backhanders. Just ask zardari.

From a pakistani perspective it ups the ante for us but we've already had this within our threat perception for a while now. It will speed up our need for some more F16 blk 52's and also to get on board with the chinese on their stealth fighter programme.

In the sub continental geopolitical context once the new plane is operational it will further create a sense of insecurity within Pakistan which I dont think is good for the region as a whole.

 

[nish_mate]

IMHO India Pakistan should produce a joint fighter aircraft and sign a binding agreement that only these planes will be used in case of a Indo-Pak war, this will pretty much freeze up the arms race- as none of the parties would want to go in a far with faulty goods.

Vis a vis China- keep on buying arms and dont stop building infra.

 

[nish_mate]

also they dont want to take any responsibility for the planes built in India. Which was what all the fuss has been about. I ehar that india have caved in with regards to this so its highly likely that the french will finally get a big order for their bird. Personally I would have gone for the typhoon because its cheaper and still fulfils the requirements but I suspect there are plenty of people making plenty of cash on the back of this as the French are known to be great at backhanders. Just ask zardari.

From a pakistani perspective it ups the ante for us but we've already had this within our threat perception for a while now. It will speed up our need for some more F16 blk 52's and also to get on board with the chinese on their stealth fighter programme.

In the sub continental geopolitical context once the new plane is operational it will further create a sense of insecurity within Pakistan which I dont think is good for the region as a whole.

French were agreeing on transfer of knowledge and desi components

 

[CricketCartoons]

If that's what makes you feel proud, then perhaps the foreign manufacturers should put the prices up even higher and make you feel even more proud.

Doctor: "I'll need to give you some local anaethetic first"
CricketCartoons: "Doc, make me feel proud, don't give me local, give me something foreign and expensive!"

What is there to laugh? Of course I prefer only foreign and expensive stuff.

 

[the Great Khan]

French were agreeing on transfer of knowledge and desi components

yes I know that but they refused to take responsibility for any problems with the plane. Essentially they said its a HAL fighter not a dassault fighter, you build it , you take responsibility for it. India was having none of it and insisted that they take part responsibility for the build. e.g. insurance legal issues etc etc, so for example lets say a HAL built craft crashed and killed the pilot, India would have the right to ask the french for compensation and perhaps even legal recourse. I ehar that that is no longer the case hence why the deal is now going through.

first deployments are set to occur in 2020.

 

[shortbread]

also they dont want to take any responsibility for the planes built in India. Which was what all the fuss has been about. I ehar that india have caved in with regards to this so its highly likely that the french will finally get a big order for their bird. Personally I would have gone for the typhoon because its cheaper and still fulfils the requirements but I suspect there are plenty of people making plenty of cash on the back of this as the French are known to be great at backhanders. Just ask zardari.

From a pakistani perspective it ups the ante for us but we've already had this within our threat perception for a while now. It will speed up our need for some more F16 blk 52's and also to get on board with the chinese on their stealth fighter programme.

In the sub continental geopolitical context once the new plane is operational it will further create a sense of insecurity within Pakistan which I dont think is good for the region as a whole.

I have a sneaky suspicion the rafale deal might collapse.

The Qataris are next in line to acquire the rafales and everyone knows that the so called 'Qatari Air Force' is heavily dependent on PAF expertise and personnell to fly and maintain their jets. PAF already have experience with Mirage jets and will be very quick to adapting to the Rafales. This makes the Indians very insecure. Also PAF and China's PLAAF have an excellent nexus in adapting (plagiarising) existing planes for China to make cost effective copies eg F16s to J10s. All this is speculative tho!!

There's also the Russian angle. France has put on hold deliveries of the Mistral amphibious carriers. The Soviets will try and bite back any which way possible. They are now offering India the 5 gen upgraded Su 35S which might end up being a more cost effective option for the IAF. Albeit its still a heavy air superiority fighter versus a medium fighter. But HAL can easily adapt to the 35S as they already working on a very similar air frame and its a jet they know inside out. Russia might under-quote to annoy the French.

Considering that Modi loves grandiose in all his foreign visits, Indians might be just holding of the hand shake till he touches down in France and let their PM grab all the attention. If not it will be a huge blow for Dassault.

 

[cricketjoshila]

also they dont want to take any responsibility for the planes built in India. Which was what all the fuss has been about.

That issue has been settled.The french will physically inspect each plane and certify it and they will also take a counter guarantee from the Indian company manufacturing these planes.See post 90

I ehar that india have caved in with regards to this so its highly likely that the french will finally get a big order for their bird.

Cave in?In respect to which terms?

Personally I would have gone for the typhoon because its cheaper and still fulfils the requirements but I suspect there are plenty of people making plenty of cash on the back of this as the French are known to be great at backhanders. Just ask zardari.

Well from the very start it was known that IAF wanted to test only 2 fighters,Rafale and Typhoon but then it unexpectedly sent RFI to 6 contenders and it had to test all 6 of them.The problem with Typhoon was that it had too many stake holders and its AESA Radar development wasnt a surety then.And since it had 6 stake holders its cost was higher and thats why Rafale emerged as the L-1 bidder.The last 2 planes remaining were Rafale and Typhoon and then they were both called to the opening of the financial bids and Rafale won on that.I doubt there was any issue there.But there is no doubt that there was a section which wanted Rafale to win and from the onset they were supported in the media as French being reliable and immune to slapping sanctions and India being used to French technology as IAF already flies the Mirage 2000.

From a pakistani perspective it ups the ante for us but we've already had this within our threat perception for a while now. It will speed up our need for some more F16 blk 52's and also to get on board with the chinese on their stealth fighter programme.

I doubt that the block 52s will stand a chance againist the upgraded Mirages let alone Sukhoi or Rafales.Remember that Lockheed had put up a F-16 based on block 60,but having more advanced features in the MMRCA and that fighter failed to pass.

I have huge doubts over the Chinese Fighter programme as none of chinese fighters yet fly with a chinese engine.Their WS 10 has failed to live up to the quality check of PLAAF.India on the other hand is advancing the schedule of inducting the PAK FA into the IAF from 94 months to 36 months.

In the sub continental geopolitical context once the new plane is operational it will further create a sense of insecurity within Pakistan which I dont think is good for the region as a whole.

The Rafale is more to do with PLAAF then PAF.The present fighters of IAF are enough for PAF.India in terms of air force has a very striaght forward doctrine vis a vis PLAAF,that IAF will go for technologically superior aircrafts than PLAAF as PLAAF has numerical superiority.

 

[the Great Khan]

I have a sneaky suspicion the rafale deal might collapse.

The Qataris are next in line to acquire the rafales and everyone knows that the so called 'Qatari Air Force' is heavily dependent on PAF expertise and personnell to fly and maintain their jets. PAF already have experience with Mirage jets and will be very quick to adapting to the Rafales. This makes the Indians very insecure. Also PAF and China's PLAAF have an excellent nexus in adapting (plagiarising) existing planes for China to make cost effective copies eg F16s to J10s. All this is speculative tho!!

True but I think the Indians are willing to take the risk. It isnt just about fighting a war its about PR and image too and the Indians are always concious of this fact. With chinese advances in stealth aircraft we know the PAF has skipped the J10 for the new stealth aircraft the chinese are developing. Theyre hoping the JF17 and Blk 52's will deter India long enough before we get the stealth planes.


There's also the Russian angle. France has put on hold deliveries of the Mistral amphibious carriers. The Soviets will try and bite back any which way possible. They are now offering India the 5 gen upgraded Su 35S which might end up being a more cost effective option for the IAF. Albeit its still a heavy air superiority fighter versus a medium fighter. But HAL can easily adapt to the 35S as they already working on a very similar air frame and its a jet they know inside out. Russia might under-quote to annoy the French.

I think the Russian option will always be on the table but Im not so sure about Putins ideas. it would be in Russias interest to keep the indians in their pocket with regards to arms exports but the indians haven't been to pleased with the way the russians have dealt with spares and other issues in recent years.

Considering that Modi loves grandiose in all his foreign visits, Indians might be just holding of the hand shake till he touches down in France and let their PM grab all the attention. If not it will be a huge blow for Dassault.

The man loves PR and is very conscious of his image. Hence why the annoucnement is being delayed till April. overall I think its a white elephant but a lethal white elephant.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Confirmed: India to Buy Only 36 Rafale Fighter Jets

Is the ‘mother of all defense deals’ finally dead?


Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar confirmed on Sunday that India will only purchase 36 instead of 126 Rafale fighter jets from France, an announcement that appears to finally bury the much hyped “mother of all defense deals” for good.

The 126 Rafale aircraft are “way too expensive” and “economically unviable and not required,” the defense minister told local press over the weekend. Purchasing the fighters would have been “a very steep slope to climb financially (…) we are not buying the rest. We are only buying the … 36,” Parrikar added.

Yet India could still purchase an additional 20 Rafale jets at a later stage, local media speculated recently. This was fueled by Parrikar’s statement to reporters last week that he is not definitely ruling out additional purchases: “I’m not saying we will buy more Rafale; I’m not saying we will not buy more.”

On Sunday, however, he made his strongest comments so far that the Indian defense budget won’t support the acquisition of a large new fleet of fighter aircraft: “I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don’t because I can’t afford it. First I can’t afford it and second I don’t need it.”

According to Indian press reports, the price tag for the now-scrapped $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project went up “2.7 times” from the original cost proposal.

Initially, the MMRCA project envisioned that India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would build 108 out of a 126 total Rafale jets locally, with the first batch of 18 fighter jets directly delivered from France in flyaway condition.

However, New Delhi unexpectedly announced in April of this year that it would only purchase 36 French-made Rafale fighters instead of the original 126. The announcement came as a severe shock to several Indian defense analysts and the Indian Air Force, which has been plagued by a poor procurement process for decades that has resulted in diminished operational readiness (see: “Indian Air Force Still Plagued by Poor Procurement Process“).

As I reported last week, Germany had consistently lobbied against the purchase of the Rafale aircraft and — among other things — pointed out to New Delhi that the Rafale would only be the cheaper solution to the Eurofighter Typhoon multirole fighter if one excludes maintenance and future upgrade costs from the financial calculations. These lobbying efforts might perhaps be paying off now as India is reconsidering the Eurofighter option (see: “Will India Purchase German Stealth Submarines?”).

The price tag for the 36 off-the-shelf Rafale will substantially be cheaper since France is no longer obligated to build the planes in India. ”In the MMRCA tender, Dassault was to supply 18 Rafales in flyaway condition, and also build 90 fighters in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Now Dassault is freed of the responsibility to ‘Make in India’. The price they now supply the Rafale at should not just be lower, but at least 30-35 per cent lower than the price which included ‘Make in India,’” an expert noted.

However, the current contract under negotiation includes a offset clause which stipulated that France will have to invest 50 percent of the contract value as offsets in India. Final negotiations are supposed to conclude in two to three months, with the planes scheduled to be delivered over the next two years.

The Indian Air Force is currently down to 35 current active fighter squadrons, which is seven below the sanctioned strength of 42. The purchase of 36 Rafale figher jets is a stopgap solution to overcome some the critical shortages facing the IAF, as highlighted in a parliamentary committee report in April 2015.

“The direct acquisition of 36 Rafales is based on the IAF’s critical operational requirement. What is the final offer at the end of the discussions, it will be considered then. I will not like to comment at this stage… let the discussions come to some conclusion,” the defense minister said on Sunday.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/confirmed-india-to-buy-only-36-rafale-fighter-jets/

 

[cricketjoshila]

http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/confirmed-india-to-buy-only-36-rafale-fighter-jets/

Yes,

Modi believes in Govt to Govt military sales and not this tendering thing.So all Rafales and i believe under 90 to 100 may join the IAF will be purchased through the french govt. with Rafale opening an assembly line in India.

The old MMRCA tender will be scrapped as it was too complicated and costly.The cost savings are estimated to.be around 4-5bn over the 126 fighters.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Yes,

Modi believes in Govt to Govt military sales and not this tendering thing.So all Rafales and i believe under 90 to 100 may join the IAF will be purchased through the french govt. with Rafale opening an assembly line in India.

The old MMRCA tender will be scrapped as it was too complicated and costly.The cost savings are estimated to.be around 4-5bn over the 126 fighters.

That's pretty optimistic and highly unlikely given the financial situation.

The Modi government has also questioned UPA for clearing the French fighter deal which was likely to cost the nation over USD 20 Billion.

"I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required," Mr Parrikar said.

Their back up plan isn't great either:

"We plan to induct as many as a Tejas Mark-II to make up the number" a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official told NDTV.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...says-defence-minister-manohar-parrikar-767499

In hindsight they should have probably gone for the F16s/F18s because you would get a lot more than 36 jets for $7.5billion, wouldn't you?

Anyway, one hopes that the need for such planes never arises so maybe this is a blessing in disguise.

 

[MSaad1237]

They all look pretty badass.

 

[justarslan]

Does Butcher of Gujarat support Everton FC?

 

[anuk]

what a waste of money when indian living standards are so poor

 

[cricketjoshila]

That's pretty optimistic and highly unlikely given the financial situation.



Their back up plan isn't great either:




http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...says-defence-minister-manohar-parrikar-767499

In hindsight they should have probably gone for the F16s/F18s because you would get a lot more than 36 jets for $7.5billion, wouldn't you?

Anyway, one hopes that the need for such planes never arises so maybe this is a blessing in disguise.

The 126 jets would have cost 10bn USD in 2008-09 but due to the third rate delaying tactics of of UPA which went for a long winding tendering process,that finally chose Rafale in 2012 made the cost shoot up to 15bn usd in 2012.Then the insistence of UPA that Dassault partner HAL and no one else and the pathetic track record of HAL meant that Dassault refused to take responsibility of the planes manufactured by HAL.This further delayed the project and now the cost of 36 planes is estimated to be near 20bn USD.

Modi override all this and signed a contract with the French govt. meaning that the french will acquire the fighters for India from dassault and stand guarantee.The terms and condition and pricing will be same as that between French govt and dassault.

The initial 36 aircrafts plus weapons and service will cost 4bn USD.Ultimately 126 aircrafts will be acquired for close to 15bn USD in todays rates.

A saving of over 5 bn USD from the MMRCA contract.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

From 126 to 36 to potentially nil. This is all getting rather embarrassing now.

Hundreds of MiG 21 and MiG 27s to be phased out soon, the indigenous HAL Tejas programme is almost 20 years behind schedule and now this. Good job that the odds of aerial combat between India and Pakistan or China are extremely slim.

4 Months After PM Intervened, Rafale Deal in Trouble: Report

New Delhi: India's order of 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets has run into trouble with government officials struggling to agree on sales terms, sources said, four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened to break a logjam in previous commercial negotiations.

Two senior defence officials told Reuters that both sides were wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that planemaker Dassault Aviation invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India.

The problems threaten to further delay the modernisation of India's ageing air force.

Military officials have warned of a major capability gap opening up with rivals China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

The PM and French President Francois Hollande announced the government-to-government deal for the sale of the off-the-shelf Rafale fighters on April 10.

That followed three years of commercial negotiations with Dassault for 126 aircraft that stalled due to disagreements over assembling most of the aircraft in India.

Citing India's urgent defence needs, the Prime Minister chose to deal directly with Paris for a smaller order, saying officials would work out the details.

On May 16, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told local media that negotiations over pricing would be finished in a "month or two".

But those talks were bogged down over India's insistence on a lower price for the frontline warplanes than the roughly $200 million each that was discussed with Dassault during the commercial talks, said the two defence officials, who have been briefed on the new negotiations.

Under the previous proposal, Dassault was to assemble 108 of the aircraft in India, a move New Delhi hoped would help boost a high-tech local aerospace industry. There is no production in India in the new arrangement.

"Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks cannot stand," said one of the officials, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The Defence Ministry said negotiators were in talks to produce a draft agreement, but declined to give details.

A Dassault spokesman declined to comment, as did the French defence procurement agency.

The two defence officials said another sticking point is Delhi's standard requirement that arms makers invest a percentage of the value of any deal above $50 million in India.

In this instance, India wants Dassault to invest at least 30 percent of the contract value locally through activities such as the sourcing of components for future French operations, the setting up of manufacturing facilities in India or by providing high-tech job training, the officials said.

"This issue has become bigger than the procurement," said Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor on arms purchases to the Indian Defence Ministry, who has been tracking the negotiations.

Complicating matters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has reportedly asked for technical modifications so the latest weapons could be fitted to the jets.

The air force declined to comment, saying the deal was in the government's hands.

A domestic programme to build a light combat aircraft to form the backbone of the air force is 19 years behind schedule, with the first plane due for final operational clearance in March 2016.

Meanwhile, nearly 260 MiG 21 and MiG 27 Cold War-era fighter jets are due to be phased out in about eight years.

"Even with the entry of the Rafales, the air force has reconciled itself to depleted aircraft strength over the next decade," said retired air vice marshal Kapil Kak.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/4-mo...ouble-report-1206712?pfrom=home-lateststories

 

[the Great Khan]

Lol. Pakistan greatest ally. Indian bureaucracy. Read the thread about the jf17 and my debate with cricketjoshila. The IAF should scrap this deal and buy some SU35. raffas are a waste of money. From a PAF perspective the best thing is for the negotiations to drag on and on...ithe will give us time..

 

[Bewal Express]

2 poor countries with around a billion people in absolute poverty engaged in an egotistical battle of my willy is bigger than yours. Get around a table, make Kashmir Independent of both and then work together to build economies which benefit the masses and not just the elites, whose children go to good schools, end up in American and European universities and don't get killed in pointless conflicts.

 

[Robert]

what a waste of money when indian living standards are so poor

"Build your muscles as your body decays" - Dr Brian May.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

"Build your muscles as your body decays" - Dr Brian May.

You mean the astrophysicist or Queens guitarist?

 

[rakeem]

This much talked about deal is in the freezer and looks finished. The LOL salute to whoever started this thread.

The butcher of Gujarat Modi chai wala's skills r exposed. The initial deal by previous Congress govt. of 108 with assembly in India was reduced to 36 in April, 2015. with no assembly in India, no technology transfer and continued to crap about the unit aircraft pricing. Dassault like other western corporates investing in India were thinking of getting extra few billion by singing jana gana mana with emotional fools the indians. Both sides had different greedy priorities. The Indian Air Force wanted modifications to increase payload of latest weapons [LOL] on an 80s designed plane. Modi chaiwala also wanted the arms maker to invest more percentage from themselves.

India's indigenuous fighter manufacturing, a reaction to Pak JF-17 in 90s, is also 19 year behind, with final operation clearance delayed till mid 2016. The rest of the details can be enjoyed on times of india report here:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rafale-fighter-jets-deal-with-France-runs-into-problems-Sources/articleshow/48450445.cms

This Rafales and Tejas are meant against Pakistan & China in a war and are being posted on Pakistani forums are a real slap and own goal for the indian posters in their stupid chuty*pa of upmanship and gloating. A lesson for Pak posters also no need to brag and make huge statements let the JF-17s do the talking. Don't be presumptuous when ur own ppl r sleeping on the roads, r poverty stricken and enjoy Indian *****apa. Happy Independence day to all.

 

[Syed1]

Lol at romalli roti and cricket joshila...

Yeh tou epic fail hogaya )

 

[Syed1]

Haan bhai ora liyay apnay rafeekay?


Kaisa diya?

 

[Deosai]

Modi's been a disappointment so far, i thought India was gonna launch their first campaign for Akhand Bharat this year, looks like they'll have to wait another lifetime

 

[Syed1]

Modi's been a disappointment so far, i thought India was gonna launch their first campaign for Akhand Bharat this year, looks like they'll have to wait another lifetime

Lol Indian kids like cricket joshila are taught fantasies of Akhand Bharat..


Humnay tou jaisay yeh bum eid ke pathakon ke liyay bunaye hain..

 

[the Great Khan]

This much talked about deal is in the freezer and looks finished. The LOL salute to whoever started this thread.

The butcher of Gujarat Modi chai wala's skills r exposed. The initial deal by previous Congress govt. of 108 with assembly in India was reduced to 36 in April, 2015. with no assembly in India, no technology transfer and continued to crap about the unit aircraft pricing. Dassault like other western corporates investing in India were thinking of getting extra few billion by singing jana gana mana with emotional fools the indians. Both sides had different greedy priorities. The Indian Air Force wanted modifications to increase payload of latest weapons [LOL] on an 80s designed plane. Modi chaiwala also wanted the arms maker to invest more percentage from themselves.

India's indigenuous fighter manufacturing, a reaction to Pak JF-17 in 90s, is also 19 year behind, with final operation clearance delayed till mid 2016. The rest of the details can be enjoyed on times of india report here:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rafale-fighter-jets-deal-with-France-runs-into-problems-Sources/articleshow/48450445.cms

This Rafales and Tejas are meant against Pakistan & China in a war and are being posted on Pakistani forums are a real slap and own goal for the indian posters in their stupid chuty*pa of upmanship and gloating. A lesson for Pak posters also no need to brag and make huge statements let the JF-17s do the talking. Don't be presumptuous when ur own ppl r sleeping on the roads, r poverty stricken and enjoy Indian *****apa. Happy Independence day to all.

but but wait till India launches its stealth fighter programme. then theyll teach us pakistanis whats what. the truth is i truly hope they continue to try to build everything and also continue to haggle with the french for a few more years..it will give us plenty of time to get our force up to the level we desire!!

Oh I cant wait to ehar the news of the failure of the PAKFA programme too..!!lol

 

[Romali_rotti]

but but wait till India launches its stealth fighter programme. then theyll teach us pakistanis whats what. the truth is i truly hope they continue to try to build everything and also continue to haggle with the french for a few more years..it will give us plenty of time to get our force up to the level we desire!!

Oh I cant wait to ehar the news of the failure of the PAKFA programme too..!!lol

While I agree that Tejas has been a joke so far, I wouldnt give much attention to JF-17 they are nothing but Chinese reverse engineered junk... Also the Rafale and PAKFA are focused on China, Pakistan is not even in the equation here, Pakistan is self destructing on its own..

 

[cricketjoshila]

From 126 to 36 to potentially nil. This is all getting rather embarrassing now.

Hundreds of MiG 21 and MiG 27s to be phased out soon, the indigenous HAL Tejas programme is almost 20 years behind schedule and now this. Good job that the odds of aerial combat between India and Pakistan or China are extremely slim.



http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/4-mo...ouble-report-1206712?pfrom=home-lateststories

http://www.abplive.in/india/2015/08/02/article671138.ece/Make-in-India-for-90-medium-combat-jets

Gabbar Bhai,

NDTV is something you shouldnt trust when it comes to BJP and Modi.Most of their articles have un named sources.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lol Indian kids like cricket joshila are taught fantasies of Akhand Bharat..


Humnay tou jaisay yeh bum eid ke pathakon ke liyay bunaye hain..

Akhand Bharat ka to pata nahi par 1971 mein Pakistan ko Do khand awashya kar diya tha.

 

[cricketjoshila]

but but wait till India launches its stealth fighter programme. then theyll teach us pakistanis whats what. the truth is i truly hope they continue to try to build everything and also continue to haggle with the french for a few more years..it will give us plenty of time to get our force up to the level we desire!!

Oh I cant wait to ehar the news of the failure of the PAKFA programme too..!!lol

Our current forces are enough to take out your Chinese 4th gen fighters and old F 16s.

Rafales/PAK FA are not for Pakistan because these expensive hi tech birds are not needed againist PAF.These are for PLAAF.

 

[the Great Khan]

Our current forces are enough to take out your Chinese 4th gen fighters and old F 16s.

Rafales/PAK FA are not for Pakistan because these expensive hi tech birds are not needed againist PAF.These are for PLAAF.

we have 75+ blok 52 f16's that are proven combat airplanes. Nd soon nearly a 150 f17's half of which are comparable to the block 52's. Plus fighting in our own airspace with SAM and earlyw arning cover..yeah you can try..half your planes will probably crash before they get over the border considering your pathetic attrition record..lets not go into all of this again..

 

[the Great Khan]

While I agree that Tejas has been a joke so far, I wouldnt give much attention to JF-17 they are nothing but Chinese reverse engineered junk... Also the Rafale and PAKFA are focused on China, Pakistan is not even in the equation here, Pakistan is self destructing on its own..

hahahahaha..sorry but You indians never fail to amaze me..oh dear...

 

[KeyboardWarrior]

Heres the reputable Defence source :

Indian demands put Rafale deal in jeopardy

http://www.janes.com/article/53244/indian-demands-put-rafale-deal-in-jeopardy-say-sources

 

[the Great Khan]

Heres the reputable Defence source :

Indian demands put Rafale deal in jeopardy

http://www.janes.com/article/53244/indian-demands-put-rafale-deal-in-jeopardy-say-sources

now why would indians listen to an "independant" news and analysis organisation? why? oh this is hilarious!! Wait till the PAKFA tamasha starts!! lol

 

[Romali_rotti]

hahahahaha..sorry but You indians never fail to amaze me..oh dear...

This is problem with you Pakistanis, you laugh too much, had you been more serious Pakistan wouldn't be the mess it is now..

 

[cricketjoshila]

we have 75+ blok 52 f16's that are proven combat airplanes. Nd soon nearly a 150 f17's half of which are comparable to the block 52's. Plus fighting in our own airspace with SAM and earlyw arning cover..yeah you can try..half your planes will probably crash before they get over the border considering your pathetic attrition record..lets not go into all of this again..

And they will be facing 250 Su 30MKIs 50 Mirages 70 odd MIG 29s.All of them upgraded to latest tech.

Your airforce will probably sit out after few days of pounding like in 1971.

Btw with the Novator K100 missiles we wont be needing to enter the Pak Airspace a lot to shoot down your planes.

 

[cricketjoshila]

now why would indians listen to an "independant" news and analysis organisation? why? oh this is hilarious!! Wait till the PAKFA tamasha starts!! lol

PAK FA is already flying.Sadly for you.

 

[the Great Khan]

This is problem with you Pakistanis, you laugh too much, had you been more serious Pakistan wouldn't be the mess it is now..

and the problem with you Indians is you read little and talk much..now be gone before your made to look like a fool..

 

[the Great Khan]

And they will be facing 250 Su 30MKIs 50 Mirages 70 odd MIG 29s.All of them upgraded to latest tech.

Your airforce will probably sit out after few days of pounding like in 1971.

Btw with the Novator K100 missiles we wont be needing to enter the Pak Airspace a lot to shoot down your planes.

yawn..no indian commander worth a salt will send 250 su-30's into a pakistani airspace meat grinder..anyway half your fleet is in maintenance that leaves you with about 100+ SU-30's..thats all you have..

as for the PAKFA..lol, its already causing the IAF headaches..doubt we'll see it flying in indian colours for a long time to come..

we will be able to field a full strength capability backed up by everything if you come across the border..

as for 71..lol..i wont even comment on the "prowess" of the IAF in the three wars...

by the way lost any planes this week? any more crashes? i mean you have to maintain your squadron a year average right?? lol..

 

[Romali_rotti]

and the problem with you Indians is you read little and talk much..now be gone before your made to look like a fool..

lol I have nothing but sympathy when I look at Pakistan; being used by Americans to do all their dirty work then being used by China as a lapdog to bark at India........

 

[the Great Khan]

lol I have nothing but sympathy when I look at Pakistan; being used by Americans to do all their dirty work then being used by China as a lapdog to bark at India........

lol says the indian who bends over and begs to be used by everyone!!..

 

[Romali_rotti]

lol says the indian who bends over and begs to be used by everyone!!..

Like I said; just sympathy for you lot..

 

[the Great Khan]

Like I said; just sympathy for you lot..

and like i said pity for you lot..

 

[Romali_rotti]

and like i said pity for you lot..

Great 2 sympathizers towards each other, no need to talk about the war issue between us as I said earlier... Focus for India is China..

 

[the Great Khan]

Great 2 sympathizers towards each other, no need to talk about the war issue between us as I said earlier... Focus for India is China..

lol 75% of India's force structure is Pakistan specific. The weaponry is largely pakistan specific..you may have bought the propaganda but we cant afford to do that.

by the way you made a comment about the jf17 being reverse engineered. care to elaborate?

 

[PCP_1]

[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] - Tumhari Urdu in english nai mujhe sar mai headache dai dya bhai.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

http://www.abplive.in/india/2015/08/02/article671138.ece/Make-in-India-for-90-medium-combat-jets

Gabbar Bhai,

NDTV is something you shouldnt trust when it comes to BJP and Modi.Most of their articles have un named sources.

I hope you are in correct in this case however the whole procurement process has been a bit of a mess.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Modi's been a disappointment so far, i thought India was gonna launch their first campaign for Akhand Bharat this year, looks like they'll have to wait another lifetime

Lol Indian kids like cricket joshila are taught fantasies of Akhand Bharat..


Humnay tou jaisay yeh bum eid ke pathakon ke liyay bunaye hain..

Yes Akhand Bharat sounds like a great idea - lets take over territory where bombs go off left, right and centre every 5 minutes. No one other that Indian versions of Zaid Hamid even mention Akhand Bharat anymore and with good reason - who on earth would want to acquire one of the most unstable bits of land on earth? No thanks, most Indians would rather let the Pakistanis fight that battle for the next umpteen years on their own and stay out of it all.

 

[endymion248]

It seems that excessive domestic protectionism is a major issue with BJP. They seem to still be living in the 20th century.

 

[Syed1]

Yes Akhand Bharat sounds like a great idea - lets take over territory where bombs go off left, right and centre every 5 minutes. No one other that Indian versions of Zaid Hamid even mention Akhand Bharat anymore and with good reason - who on earth would want to acquire one of the most unstable bits of land on earth? No thanks, most Indians would rather let the Pakistanis fight that battle for the next umpteen years on their own and stay out of it all.

Yet I'm the one with the Shoaib Malik Avatar...


hahahhahahahahhahahahahhaa

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahaha

)

 

[Thivagar]

This is problem with you Pakistanis, you laugh too much, had you been more serious Pakistan wouldn't be the mess it is now..

and the problem with you Indians is you read little and talk much..now be gone before your made to look like a fool..

lol I have nothing but sympathy when I look at Pakistan; being used by Americans to do all their dirty work then being used by China as a lapdog to bark at India........

lol says the indian who bends over and begs to be used by everyone!!..

Like I said; just sympathy for you lot..

and like i said pity for you lot..

So cute.

 

[Thivagar]

Question time. No morons needed to answer. You know who you are.

1. If there was another war over lets say Kashmir. Who would win ? Why and How ? Why do you think the other one isn't going to win ?

2. Both parties aren't stupid enough to engage in a war so don't tell me that another war won't take place, because I already know it won't. Don't ask me how I know either.

 

[justarslan]

Question time. No morons needed to answer. You know who you are.

1. If there was another war over lets say Kashmir. Who would win ? Why and How ? Why do you think the other one isn't going to win ?

2. Both parties aren't stupid enough to engage in a war so don't tell me that another war won't take place, because I already know it won't. Don't ask me how I know either.

It will be nuclear war and both will lose.

 

[GenericBrand]

The wet dreams here..... )

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] - Tumhari Urdu in english nai mujhe sar mai headache dai dya bhai.

Witnessing you writing urdu for the first time.

Dont waste time on a jingo like syed1.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

[MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION] has genuinely lost his marbles in this thread. Comes off as a bitter old hag. Relax.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Akhand Bharat ka to pata nahi par 1971 mein Pakistan ko Do khand awashya kar diya tha.

More than 60 years and Pakistan is still standing. Big slap on the face of jingos from across the borders.

 

[PCP_1]

Witnessing you writing urdu for the first time.

Dont waste time on a jingo like syed1.

Adaab Janaab!

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Hello,

Pakistan broken into two.

India standing undivided.Kashmir still part of India.Economically and militarily stronger than Pakistan.International standing miles ahead of Pakistan.A functioning democracy.

Slap to the ones across the border who predicted doom for India and thought India land will be easy to take.

Kashmir still part of India? dont you guys claim that we have some area called POK and that gilgit baltistan is occupied by us as well? So, much for wannabe super power. God, Joshila. Do you ever read your posts and think for a moment that how childish you look.

A functioning democracy where a butcher and a former chai wala is the prime minister. A democracy laced with tons of financial scandals. Lets not even go towards it.

Posters like you and romali claim that India is buying Rafaels for China and what not. Little do you guys know that your former airchief iirc was crying last week that how Pakistani block 52s put their SU-30s in danger and that how they need to immediately procure Rafaels to counter Pakistan.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Adaab Janaab!

I kindoff take my comment regarding Syed back as we need some jingos to counter the cyber force across the border.

 

[PCP_1]

I kindoff take my comment regarding Syed back as we need some jingos to counter the cyber force across the border.

What is a jingo. I fear I maybe one too.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

What is a jingo. I fear I maybe one too.

One who practices jingoism. I no think you one.

 

[90MPH]

Yes Akhand Bharat sounds like a great idea - lets take over territory where bombs go off left, right and centre every 5 minutes. No one other that Indian versions of Zaid Hamid even mention Akhand Bharat anymore and with good reason - who on earth would want to acquire one of the most unstable bits of land on earth? No thanks, most Indians would rather let the Pakistanis fight that battle for the next umpteen years on their own and stay out of it all.

What a bitter Indian you have become. I bet you don't even read half the crap you write.

That's why I never believe the BS that spouts about Pakistan from Indians who have never been there, let alone any other connections that they have which paints this Warped picture.

Yes is there still a security risk, of course but it has diminished considerably and many Pakiatanis are now going back home for holidays and everything feels "normal" - that's what people are saying on the ground who are going.

So spare us the BS about being 1 of the most unstable places, it's not. It's not
Libya, Iraq or Syria.

Worry about your own problems which are
Much more than Pakistan and where Hindu nationalists have much political power.

 

[Saeed]

When does the summer vacation end in India and Pakistan?