England v West Indies ||2nd Test ||Trent Bridge

[James]

English fans tend to get nostalgic about Botham and Flintoff with their theories over five-man attacks.

Fact is, England only have one of those test-class genuine all-rounders come along once every decade, or once every two decades. Such a luxury is unavailable with the current stock.

It should also be noted that English sides with five-man attacks that do not feature Botham and Flintoff have often experienced problems. Unbalanced teams, directionless bowling strategies, captain forgetting to use one or more of the bowlers...and sometimes, lost matches.

 

[leatherface58]

this is way too common. there is atleast one poor batting performance by windies per test match.

 

[James]

none of those sides have a batting lineup coming anywhere near that of S.A. You have Kallis, Smith, Amla, De Villiers.

I agree, South Africa have the best batting lineup that we have faced since...South Africa last time. But our chances increase in our own conditions.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Just caught Bairstows innings properly now, he certainly looked a bit twitchy but its his first test match and he was facing some quite hostile bowling.

I've seen the lad play county cricket a bit and he's a fine young talent. He will come good and can potentially be a very explosive test match cricketer.

England really don't need to be playing 5 bowlers at home as Jimmy, Broad and Bresnan/Tremlett will be a handful for any side in the pace department so there really is no need for a 4th seamer, perhaps in the SC they can make the case for an extra spinner.

 

[truthseer]

Just caught Bairstows innings properly now, he certainly looked a bit twitchy but its his first test match and he was facing some quite hostile bowling.

I've seen the lad play county cricket a bit and he's a fine young talent. He will come good and can potentially be a very explosive test match cricketer.

England really don't need to be playing 5 bowlers at home as Jimmy, Broad and Bresnan/Tremlett will be a handful for any side in the pace department so there really is no need for a 4th seamer, perhaps in the SC they can make the case for an extra spinner.

Second, not first

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yepp sorry you are quite correct second match but still too early to make a judgement on him.

 

[James]

Comparisons to SK Raina are uncalled for. Raina played 15 tests and was still getting pairs, and still couldn't play bouncers or spinners. Bairstow has a number of first-class hundreds in English conditions.

Test cricket is a harsh environment and you've got to give young lads time. In fact it is good that Bairstow has been worked over by Rampaul and Roach, two top quality and different kinds of bowlers. All part of the learning experience.

 

[Ruri]

I've always been a five-bowler man.

It's having come up watching Botham destroying bowling attacks and running through batting lines (and taking scores of catches).

Prior can do it, if he keep Bres at #7 and Broad at #8.

I'm not normally a 5 - bowler man, but I support it in this situation. The Windies should not have been allowed to pass 300 in the first innings after looking like they could be below 250, and having another bowler, in ST Finn, would have been nice there to blast that partnership out.

In most of our wins recently, it's been based off our top 5 + Prior scoring runs, Morgan was irrelevant vs. India, Patel was unimportant vs. SL. Collingwood was carried in the Ashes, though his fielding was great like usual. I wouldn't even suggest it if Bresnan and Broad weren't in the side because they can bat a fair bit.

It's probably a stupid way to think about it, but none of our batsmen waiting in the wings are currently any good, and if a 5th bowler can save us a handful of runs, I see that as marginally better.

If we still had Collingwood, in form, I'd advocate him over the 5th bowler because he gave us a few reliable overs and had a golden arm while being a dogged batsman (he's one of my favorite England players). But seeing as our bowling depth is currently far more advanced than our batting depth, opting for another bowler I feel is nice.

There are still spells when Jimmy and Broad are off, and Bresnan looks ineffective that I'd love Finn/Onions to step up. England have a bowling weakness at around 60-80 overs, where we bowl for the new ball. Having a fifth means that we'd be able to spread bowling spells and be piling on the pressure nonstop.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I dont think an extra bowler will solve any of those things you have outlined Ruri. These niggling tail end partnerships are part of the game.

I think when you've got bowling as good as Englands an extra bowler will not make any difference to the amount of runs the opposition is getting.

 

[James]

Collingwood is an interesting case. In hindsight, there's actually an argument for him playing in the UAE and Sri Lanka. He is one of England's better batsmen in Asia. But the bus has been missed now; Paul never had the greatest pedigree in English conditions. No footwork you see. It helped him in ODIs in Australia and tests in India.

 

[Sherlock]

In my opinion England barring Swann, Broad and Anderson are lacking in bowlers that can do the job at times.

Yes Bresnan can bowl but at times he can go for a few runs too. They'd also consider bowling Trott thus my opinion is they need a a bowler that can take wickets if Ando and Broad can't.

Bresnan, in my view, is 50/50. He can bowl that great spell or he can get clobbered for plenty of runs and quick.

He's a decent batsmen but hasn't really shown too much in that department either.

Why Finn isn't in the team is baffling.

As I said earlier regarding Bairstow, this series has probably come too early for the lad.

 

[Ruri]

Collingwood is an interesting case. In hindsight, there's actually an argument for him playing in the UAE and Sri Lanka. He is one of England's better batsmen in Asia. But the bus has been missed now; Paul never had the greatest pedigree in English conditions. No footwork you see. It helped him in ODIs in Australia and tests in India.

I don't want to recall him, his form in the CC is terrible anyways, looking past his retirement even. But I think when you have 2-3 bowlers waiting in the wings with international success, and rather, international excellence, and a list of currently undercooked batsmen... Having the extra bowler denying runs rather than the average #6s we have just feels better right now. If we had a Collingwood who was brilliant at fielding (and didn't drop Bresnan/Swann catch yesterday), bowled a really good part-timer role (Hussey wicket?, Colly is miles ahead of Trott as a bowler) and still gave us enough value at 6... I'd be interested. Instead, almost all our recent #6s have been batsmen first, and decent to good fielders (in the case of Baristow and Morgan). Patel is not decent enough of a batsman to deserve the spot.

As to your point Deadly Venom: 84 runs for the last 4 wickets in the first Test and 234 runs in this match for the last 4 are less tail-wagging and beyond aggravating.

 

[ads101]

In my opinion England barring Swann, Broad and Anderson are lacking in bowlers that can do the job at times.

Yes Bresnan can bowl but at times he can go for a few runs too. They'd also consider bowling Trott thus my opinion is they need a a bowler that can take wickets if Ando and Broad can't.

Bresnan, in my view, is 50/50. He can bowl that great spell or he can get clobbered for plenty of runs and quick.

He's a decent batsmen but hasn't really shown too much in that department either.

Why Finn isn't in the team is baffling.

As I said earlier regarding Bairstow, this series has probably come too early for the lad.

Bresnan is very rarely clobbered. He has an economy of 2.80. The best out of all the english bowlers. He can be relied to bowl tight if needed.

Bresnan has shown that he is able with the bat. He's far stronger than Finn with the bat. An average of 35 with three half centuries ain't bad. He isn't as good as a full time batsman, but that's asking too much.

People are really overrating Finn. Finn was full of flaws before his comeback. Was slow, inaccurate, gave away a ball for a boundary every over. Couldn't keep the pressure on. We can see from ODIs he's got faster, and more accurate. But I see this as no reason for him to come in for Bresnan. Bresnan is doing his job, and is excelling in reverse swing.

Finn may do well, he may not on his return. But it's baffling people want him in for a guy who's currently got by far the best stats as a bowler and as a batsman from the english bowlers. Not to mention the fact that England seems to win every test with him in. Why change something when it isn't broke? Bresnan is getting wickets and winning matches.

 

[wrongun]

I've rarely seen Bresnan clobbered.

But if England won't play 5 bowlers with their current worlds best (IMO) for the top 5 batsmen, a genuine keeper batsman in Prior and a "tail" which includes the likes of Broad, Bresnan & Swann they never will. Broad & Bresnan are genuine all-rounders (albeit bowling stronger) & Swann is handy in a Brett Lee kind of way.

 

[truthseer]

But if England won't play 5 bowlers with their current worlds best (IMO) for the top 5 batsmen,

Did you just say Strauss and co are better than Smith and co?

 

[ads101]

I've rarely seen Bresnan clobbered.

But if England won't play 5 bowlers with their current worlds best (IMO) for the top 5 batsmen, a genuine keeper batsman in Prior and a "tail" which includes the likes of Broad, Bresnan & Swann they never will. Broad & Bresnan are genuine all-rounders (albeit bowling stronger) & Swann is handy in a Brett Lee kind of way.

5 bowlers wouldn't be a bad idea playing South Africa in England. They don't really have a proper no.6 locked down so might as well.

If England were playing away then I can see their reservations at making the batting order shorter.

I am not impressed with Bairstow at all really. And not sure about Bopara.

South Africa's top 5 is stronger, they have 4 gun players in the top 5, smith, Amla, Ab de villiers, Kallis. England have only 3 gun players Cook, Trott, pietersen out of the five. Bell and Strauss are just good (strauss is hitting centuries now but for some reason I don't think he'll do well against South Africa). If we analyse the whole batting line up, with Prior at seven and good batting from the bowlers, England is stronger. Even if they drop a batsman for a bowler, they'll be stronger than South Africa (who don't have a proper no.6 spot locked down either, and Boucher's not great with the bat anymore. They also don't have any all rounders in the league of bresnan and Broad).

The only thing you might say is that the South african batsmen are better in playing in Subcontinent conditions. Which won't really matter since the series is in England.

 

[Random Aussie]

So, Shiv in yet?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Typical W.I battle hard for half a game and then usual gutless collapse in 2nd half. pretty much this games been thrown away!

 

[James]

Interesting developments with Shiv yesterday. After his promotion, looked pretty inept against the new ball - couldn't deal with the extra movement, increased pressure or steepling bounce, and the latter two resulted in his wicket. I wonder if a guy who hides behind the young guys and has to bat at five to comfortably make a score really deserves to be called the number one test player in the world.

 

[Random Aussie]

Dont agree he is the number one Test player in the world in any event.

 

[Kwremb]

It raises a question as to how hard is it to play against all odds, in this case devoid of any support from his co-batsmen

 

[Robert]

People are really overrating Finn. Finn was full of flaws before his comeback. Was slow, inaccurate, gave away a ball for a boundary every over. Couldn't keep the pressure on. We can see from ODIs he's got faster, and more accurate. But I see this as no reason for him to come in for Bresnan. Bresnan is doing his job, and is excelling in reverse swing.

I consider Finn to be a true strike bowler, which England lack. Bres had a poor test at Lord's and so we wanted the thoroughbred colt in, instead of the willing workhorse.

But Bres has improved in this test so will keep the youngster out for a bit longer.

I would still give Finn a run in the next one, instead of Broad who England are going to burn out if they're not careful.

 

[James]

Resting Anderson and Broad for Onions and Finn at Durham would be a really good idea for all concerned.

Swann will be there to pull things back if it goes belly up.

 

[Robert]

English fans tend to get nostalgic about Botham and Flintoff with their theories over five-man attacks.

Fact is, England only have one of those test-class genuine all-rounders come along once every decade, or once every two decades. Such a luxury is unavailable with the current stock.

Oh, I don't know. Stewart and Prior can also be considered genuine test all-rounders.

 

[James]

But they don't bowl.

The concept of the wicketkeeper-batsman as the all-rounder is an outdated one.

The wicketkeeper now has to be competent but his primary job, by far, is to bat. It's a batting game. This is why the all-rounder has to be good enough to get into the team as a bowler alone. Balance.

 

[Saurav]

so this will be 13th consecutive win for Bresnan since his debut.wats the record

 

[James]

15 for Gilchrist

 

[James]

Dont agree he is the number one Test player in the world in any event.

Yes he is, that is observable and undeniable.

But there's a difference between holding the number one player spot and being the best player.

 

[style_guru]

15 for Gilchrist

Ok. So since England has one more test against WI at Edgbaston left, I would say that Bres would up his record to 14 wins for sure.

England's next assignment is against SA at the Oval in July. So it'll be a test for Bres and England.

As far as this game is concerned, I feel that WI have handed it to England on a plate.

 

[Saurav]

15 for Gilchrist

think that record will be broken

 

[James]

Don't agree...Bresnan has had a great run but I suspect that South Africa will be drawing or winning this series...

 

[Robert]

But they don't bowl.

The concept of the wicketkeeper-batsman as the all-rounder is an outdated one.

The wicketkeeper now has to be competent but his primary job, by far, is to bat. It's a batting game. This is why the all-rounder has to be good enough to get into the team as a bowler alone. Balance.

Only if you've got four really good bowlers, or two champions such as McGrath and Warne.

This seven batters idea isn't necessary IMO. You might get fewer runs but your five bowlers will get the oppo out for fewer too.

 

[leatherface58]

again the 2 sams showing you can bat on this pitch. you got crap then shiv samuels sammy followed by tailenders.

how can you win a test match if your top 3 are scoring in single digits? that new guy fudadin might as well try him than try failures like powell and barath no matter how pretty their cover drive is.

 

[James]

55 ahead, 3 wickets left to get. Surely academic.

Bres needs 1 of them for a five-wicket haul and 2 of them for a ten.

 

[ads101]

haha roach has a go bashing Broad.

Does look a lot better batsman than he actually is Roach. Some stylish shots. Or at least the first four in that over against broad.

 

[leatherface58]

broad is a whiny jerk but his cricketing attitude is rather proper. much like kumble. nobody has the right to even take singles off my bowling. he will be very successful with that attitude i feel.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Bresnan has been very impressive in this game after having a pretty quite game in the 1st Test.

 

[James]

Roach LBW to Anderson.

DRS 3 Rauf 0. Not Asad's best game!

 

[wrongun]

Did you just say Strauss and co are better than Smith and co?

Yes.

SA have weaker openers so the other team gets a look in more often.

I rate Smith as good rather than great as well.

 

[ads101]

Yes.

SA have weaker openers so the other team gets a look in more often.

I rate Smith as good rather than great as well.

You rate Strauss and/or cook over Smith? Surely Smith has been the best opener of his era?

Not to mention he has one of the better records against england out of the SA batsmen.

 

[James]

Overall, not much at all to choose between England and South Africa.

Main difference is that Steyn is better than any of our bowlers.

 

[Saurav]

Overall, not much at all to choose between England and South Africa.

Main difference is that Steyn is better than any of our bowlers.

but overall England attack is better.SA's best spinner is

 

[Robert]

You rate Strauss and/or cook over Smith? Surely Smith has been the best opener of his era?

Not to mention he has one of the better records against england out of the SA batsmen.

If you take the 250 and the 275 out of his first and second tests against us, he has not been that good. Hoggard in particular worked him out.

Shark and Amla are more scary TBH.

 

[ads101]

If you take the 250 and the 275 out of his first and second tests against us, he has not been that good. Hoggard in particular worked him out.

Shark and Amla are more scary TBH.

he scored two hundreds (one nearly a double hundred) against England in his last two tests against South Africa.

Think he scored a couple of hundreds in his last tour in england too.

Dunno why you'd take out the 250 and 275 anyway doesn't seem particularly fair.

And Hoggard ain't in the team anymore. And the current English bowlers haven't worked him out at all. He scored huge amounts of runs in the last tour (and to some extent the one before that too).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

James: "Samuels has now faced over 400 balls this Test, and scored over 170 runs. Plus 2 wickets. Man of the match for me. Without that there would have been no contest."


Is this our very own James?

 

[James]

That James makes a good point, but it is unfortunately not this James.

Samuels, Strauss and Bresnan all have a shout for MotM.

 

[James]

Caught Anderson!

 

[Fireworks11]

Looks like Samuels will be left stranded.

 

[JibranAnsari]

couldn't buy single on the last delivery..

 

[Saurav]

108 to get

Samuels left stranded on 76

 

[JibranAnsari]

108 to get

Samuels left stranded on 76

Should not have exposed rampaul, could have added another precious thirty.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

England to knock it off in 20 overs.

 

[Saurav]

Should not have exposed rampaul, could have added another precious thirty.

yes batting with the tail is an art few possess

 

[DeadlyVenom]

‎#EngvWi A really good fight from Marlon Samuels (76*) to help the Windies to a somewhat competitive total. May still not be enough. - From the Windies FB page

They seem to be Glass half full kind of guys

 

[Fireworks11]

England need 108 to win.

Should be a summer's walk in the park.

 

[Saurav]

‎#EngvWi A really good fight from Marlon Samuels (76*) to help the Windies to a somewhat competitive total. May still not be enough. - From the Windies FB page

They seem to be Glass half full kind of guys

50-4 n u never know

not happening though

 

[Fireworks11]

Second successive maiden over.

 

[Fireworks11]

That's 3 maidens in a row.

0-0.

 

[Amjid Javed]

W.I - Top 3 is majorly inexperienced and will continue to exposed against top class bowlers. W.I need to look at get Gayle back into the side and maybe samuels or Chanderpaul needs to bat higher up the order.

 

[Fireworks11]

Looking hunkey dorey for England.

 

[Ruri]

Lol, woke up to a 9-wicket win. Nice, but it seemed to be a bit of a doddle.

 

[Ruri]

Resting Anderson and Broad for Onions and Finn at Durham would be a really good idea for all concerned.

Swann will be there to pull things back if it goes belly up.

I'd definitely rest Broad because of how injury prone he is, and how pivotal he will be in the ODIs and T20s to follow, so he wont get much rest there.

But they've only played three competitive games this year each, a CC match and then these two tests, hardly a reason to rest them. I'd actually consider resting both from the odd Australia ODIs...

 

[WalkingWiggett]

Lol, woke up to a 9-wicket win. Nice, but it seemed to be a bit of a doddle.

Minnow bashing.

But you can only beat what's presented. Well played, Flower XI.

 

[Ruri]

Minnow bashing.

But you can only beat what's presented. Well played, Flower XI.

Should have been more interesting if that 2nd innings batting by the Windies folded under the pressure (of having actually done relatively well the first go around)

 

[leatherface58]

dang marlon is in the form of his life. and he seems to be converting also. woulda shoulda got another 100 if windies hadnt folded.