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India close Day 5 of the WTC final at 2/64, leading New Zealand by 32 runs

Now then. Hopefully, people can start posting about how they really feel. So much for the suppressed angst and murmurs of IND bowlers not adapting.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
There is a difference between full length and overpitching.

And yes full length will go for more runs but chances of wickets rises.

The sweet spot is the half part of full length close to good length maybe.
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All 3 wickets were on the 6 - 8 m length which is good length. Even the Ross Taylor wicket.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
All 3 wickets were on the 6 - 8 m length which is good length. Even the Ross Taylor wicket.
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Shami taylor was officially full length according to pitch map.

The latest wicket was good length yes.

Ishant wicket not sure but cricbuzz calling it full.

The key i believe is to be full enough to get them on the front foot.

Heck, rossy played that shot cos he was on the front foot.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Shami taylor was officially full length according to pitch map.

The latest wicket was good length yes.

Ishant wicket not sure but cricbuzz calling it full.

The key i believe is to be full enough to get them on the front foot.

Heck, rossy played that shot cos he was on the front foot.
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No, Ishant bowled a good length delivery.
 
excellent bowling in tandem from indias pacers here and they are deservedly picking up wickets. NZ tactics of just blocking isnt working here. India sould be aiming to gain a 1st inns lead here.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
You can check it again the ICC website .
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I am literally seeing the live coverage.

The commies were talking about the spot of shami delivery to ross taylor.

I get your point......but i think we need to distinguish between super agressive full length (southee delivery to ashwin) vs relatively safer full length.
 
Pretty obvious, but IND will need to ensure they do not go searching for wickets. NZD are on the backfoot anyway.

NZD will likely want ~30-40 quick runs regardless where they come from on the wagon wheel. The mistake to avoid would be to leave the flourish too late like IND did.
 
Williamson has batted for over 2 hrs today but has scored only 7 runs.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Another good length ball gets a wicket .
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I remember reading a article where some writer from espn posted stats of the most consistent "good length" hitters, guess what James Anderson was at the top.
In England you can get wicket by bowling 4th stump line and good length, just bcoz Indians didn't get wickets yesterday some posters have made a hoopla about full length
 
Amjid Javed said:
excellent bowling in tandem from indias pacers here and they are deservedly picking up wickets. NZ tactics of just blocking isnt working here. India sould be aiming to gain a 1st inns lead here.
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right !! so no humiliation in waiting for us then..:)
 
Imagine if this was played in india, and if NZ was 217 AO and india was 135 - 5....every T D H and their aunt would have crawled out of the wood work and gone all out about how the schedule fitted india perfectly, how the pitches were designed to help india win, how the umps, conditions, sightscreen, team lunch etc were all in india's favour and off course the ridiculous narrative of BCCI = ICC ...
Just think these conditions are more Kiwi than Indian, the NZ guys grew up playing these conditions at junior/school / FC levels....u'd think they should never get out to a paceman here....
Did we whinge at all? Whatever the result of the test in front of us....two of the best teams are playing here....
 
Williamson is obviously scratching around ever since he walked into bat, never looked in.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
I remember reading a article where some writer from espn posted stats of the most consistent "good length" hitters, guess what James Anderson was at the top.
In England you can get wicket by bowling 4th stump line and good length, just bcoz Indians didn't get wickets yesterday some posters have made a hoopla about full length
Click to expand...

Ishant's entire career was called unlucky cos he bowled a touch too short.

Then he changed up and his average improved.

Today, shami was getting beatens but not the edge.

He went a touch full and got the wicket.

With that being said, good length averages better cps batsman wont hit you for 4s easily.

There was a cricvizz stats posted. The tweet got deleted.

The conclusion was it wasnt a black and white case as in good length vs full length.

India defo werent going full.

Heck you yourself said it in the bumrah thread.

Issue is that if you dont get movement, full can kill you.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I am literally seeing the live coverage.

The commies were talking about the spot of shami delivery to ross taylor.

I get your point......but i think we need to distinguish between super agressive full length (southee delivery to ashwin) vs relatively safer full length.
Click to expand...

Shami's wicket of Taylor was almost bang on the 6m length , maybe even a smidge shorter. NZ bowlers , and Southee in particular, swung the ball a massive amount. When you consistently get that much swing , it is beneficial to pitch the ball up a little bit. Our bowlers didnt get anywhere near that amount of swing which is why I dont think they would have been better off pitching it up.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
I remember reading a article where some writer from espn posted stats of the most consistent "good length" hitters, guess what James Anderson was at the top.
In England you can get wicket by bowling 4th stump line and good length, just bcoz Indians didn't get wickets yesterday some posters have made a hoopla about full length
Click to expand...

Length has been OK. Also not quite a like for like comparison in terms of lengths bowled by Jasprit and Ishant/Shami. The latter two are using swing so can look to pitch it slightly fuller. Jasprit is not really getting much movement so bowling it full will likely just mean a straight full delivery. A good length is more likely to help him maintain control and try and catch the shoulder of the bat.

Conventional wisdom suggests that all of them should bowl fuller to allow the ball to swing as much as possible but this may not be best suited to their own strengths. Let’s see how things pan out.
 
This is about the time that Sam Curran used to change the tempo of the innings with quick cameos with the bat two years ago.

Nz will need either CDG or Jamieson to do that job.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Shami's wicket of Taylor was almost bang on the 6m length , maybe even a smidge shorter. NZ bowlers , and Southee in particular, swung the ball a massive amount. When you consistently get that much swing , it is beneficial to pitch the ball up a little bit. Our bowlers didnt get anywhere near that amount of swing which is why I dont think they would have been better off pitching it up.
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Smidge fuller acvording to tv coverage. Maybe different sources show it differently.

I didnt say go too much full.

In fact, this is the first time i am commenting about it for this test.

I am saying there is a gradient...a grey area between good and full and if you push things up just a little bit, you can get a few more edges and plays.

And cricket is a game where one delivery will lead to a mistake from another.

Like bouncers resulting in a simple full length sucker ball getting the edge. Doesnt mean the latter is what works.
 
NZ going nowhere at the moment and have allowed India to attack them...they need to get a quick 40-50 from somewhere to ease the pressure
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
I remember reading a article where some writer from espn posted stats of the most consistent "good length" hitters, guess what James Anderson was at the top.
In England you can get wicket by bowling 4th stump line and good length, just bcoz Indians didn't get wickets yesterday some posters have made a hoopla about full length
Click to expand...

Yes, you dont have to pitch any fuller in England unless you get prodigious swing. I just felt our bowlers a tad unlucky and NZ showed excellent skill and patience. Nothing more to it. With the amount of swing out bowlers were bowling , they would have been smacked.

It was bound to be a war of attrition that we had to win.
 
Although the first 3 wickets were soft dismissals, the Indian seamers seem to have found their lengths.

I still think a draw is likely
 
There is a reason why Shami had 278 false shots created in 2018 series vs Bumrah amd ishant's 200 each and yet averaged 35 while they both averaged low to mid 20s.

You can be unlucky for a game or two.

You cant be unlucky forever.

Ian bishop beautifully explained about the release points and how you need practice and rhythm to make it happen.
 
Mohammad Shami’s average length has shifted from 7.48m on day three to 6.94m today.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Smidge fuller acvording to tv coverage. Maybe different sources show it differently.

I didnt say go too much full.

In fact, this is the first time i am commenting about it for this test.

I am saying there is a gradient...a grey area between good and full and if you push things up just a little bit, you can get a few more edges and plays.

And cricket is a game where one delivery will lead to a mistake from another.

Like bouncers resulting in a simple full length sucker ball getting the edge. Doesnt mean the latter is what works.
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I would agree with that only if our bowlers showed enough skill to swing the ball significantly. This pushing the gradient slightly fuller is a very finely tuned skill which I think our bowlers are not very good at. Boult, Southee etc
. are masters of doing that and it suits their strengths. It's not really a strength of out attack and they risk getting smashed . In this test, full length run rate has been 3.2 while good length has been 1.0 . Bowling fuller is very risky unless the bowlers are particularly good at that.

I think 2018 Ishant couldhave done that well since he was generating massive swing.
 
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Nikhil_cric said:
Yes, you dont have to pitch any fuller in England unless you get prodigious swing. I just felt our bowlers a tad unlucky and NZ showed excellent skill and patience. Nothing more to it. With the amount of swing out bowlers were bowling , they would have been smacked.

It was bound to be a war of attrition that we had to win.
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I thought I was the only one who thought Conway and Latham batted exceptionally well. Most of the comments were trashing bumrah and ishant
 
Nikhil_cric said:
I would agree with that only if our bowlers showed enough skill to swing the ball significantly. This pushing the gradient slightly fuller is a very finely tuned skill which I think our bowlers are not very good at. Boult, Southee etc
. are masters of doing that and it suits their strengths. It's not really a strength of out attack and they risk getting smashed . In this test, full length run rate has been 3.2 while good length has been 1.0 . Bowling fuller is very risky unless the bowlers are particularly good at that.
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Dont disagree but if batsman are not even facing any issues with good length, its time to change it up and try stuff.

If we were bowling good length all day, sooner or later we will get tired and start spraying and they would capitalize.

We dont even need to go full length all the time but just try to push it a bit.

You can always recalibrate and scale back if things dont work well.

You need to create some doubts jn the batsmens minds.

By the way, we desperately needed Siraj here.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Dont disagree but if batsman are not even facing any issues with good length, its time to change it up and try stuff.

If we were bowling good length all day, sooner or later we will get tired and start spraying and they would capitalize.

We dont even need to go full length all the time but just try to push it a bit.

You can always recalibrate and scale back if things dont work well.

You need to create some doubts jn the batsmens minds.

By the way, we desperately needed Siraj here.
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Should have played him ahead of the extra spinner.
 
Average seam movement today:

Bumrah - 0.8 degrees
Ishant - 0.6 degrees
Shami - 0.9 degrees
 
Run rate (against seamers) in this Test:

Full Balls - 3.2rpo
Good Length Balls - 1.0rpo
Short Balls - 3.2rpo
 
Now I am convinced you need to bowl at mid 130s and keep bowling a good length in England allow the rest for pitch to do job. Looks like bumrah should somehow cut his pace and find the right length, his 140 speeds is not aiding swing and he is not attacking the wicket too
 
Best pace attacks in Tests since the start of 2018:
(Min.10 matches)

Avg
22.82 - Ind (351* wkts)
24.02 - SA (362)
24.99 - NZ (359)
25.66 - Aus (334)
26.01 - Eng (480)
26.23 - WI (286)
28.70 - Pak (236)
33.68 - SL (199)
49.34 - Ban (67)
 
Looks like we are back into the game.

Has Shami been the standout bowler for us?
 
globalcitizen said:
Now I am convinced you need to bowl at mid 130s and keep bowling a good length in England allow the rest for pitch to do job. Looks like bumrah should somehow cut his pace and find the right length, his 140 speeds is not aiding swing and he is not attacking the wicket too
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He used to swing it at high pace in WI.

Last time , he was pretty good in England.

Needs to work on his game post injury.
 
There was someone who was saying before we left for England that Shami isn't made for English conditions.
 
How about giviing Ashwin a burst at C De G before the new ball arrives....i guess C De G will be looking to open his shoulders and up the run rate...will be intresting....GO INDIAAAAA!!!!
 
It's not so much about bowling full length or good length. If the full length is 4-6m and good length is 6-8m, I would say the ideal english length is sort of a buffer zone adjoining the full length and good length zones, ideally in the 5-7m area.

And it's not that you bowl full only if there's swing on offer. Seam movement is also lateral movement and any sort of lateral movement at the right zone will get the edge. And yes, Shami has not been always unlucky. His natural length is just a bit too short for english conditions. The above picture is of his pitch map before he took his wickets.

shami.jpg


The general rule of bowling (be it fast bowling or spin bowling) is that the more lateral movement you get (via swing/seam movement for the quicks and turn for the spinners), the fuller you need to pitch and the lesser you get, the shorter you need to pitch to get the edge.
 
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What a farce that this trophy will be shared, at the bare minimum this should have been a 3 match series; I hope this will be the case for future finals
 
shaz619 said:
What a farce that this trophy will be shared, at the bare minimum this should have been a 3 match series; I hope this will be the case for future finals
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The ICC barely has the appetite to host/pay for one test. You think they will fork out money to play three?
 
Yasir_ch said:
LOL if in these conditions they won't get wickets then I don't know where they will.LOL world class.First produce a bowler whose average is less than 25 then we will talk.
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lol.. Kaake vekh le.. Conditions or no conditions wickets are taken.. Unlike getting overhyped and smashed to pieces in Australia/NZ and even England
 
What a boring test match......... I just want this to end, if Grandhomme can get a quickfire 60-70 and NZ get about 270-280, they should put India in a lot of trouble.. NZ Maybe even pull off a win in time.
 
KW looking to force the issue through the off side vs Jadeja. Should bowl a quicker flatter one.
 
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