Jacques Kallis' Test average is better than Sachin Tendulkar. Is he a better batsman?

[Bhaijaan]

Don't know about the Lillee-Imran stuff you're talking about, i for one have always chosen Imran without a second thought. For me it's all about the impact on the game and usefulness. These teams are meant to take on the best the world has to offer and dominate them and that's what i expect from SRT and Imran. SRT stood up against Australia like Imran did against WI.
It's something i haven't seen from Kallis and that has been disappointing bbecause the Aussie hater inside of me always wanted such things from Kallis during those matches

 

[cricketworm]

Close your eyes and remember any Kallis' knock or bowling performances you remember. Any in 90's? Don't look at the score card or stats. Does anyone even remember Kallis' top 3 highest scores in any of the format. Done. I rest my case.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Urban myth... Flintoff summer 2003 to winter 2005/6 was a classy and sometimes amazing test player, and carried on after that as a superb ODI player - quick 40s, 4-fers, catches and hat-tricks. Even in the 2008 and 2009 test summers he had some gargantuan moments. I am not his biggest fan these days and he deserves a lot of the criticism he receives, but he contributed a lot more than 'one' 'good' 'Ashes' series - it was a magnificent Ashes series by the way... The Kallis v Flintoff debate is separate and could go on long into the night, but thought I would step here in and defend the big Lancastrian for once...

Kallis v Tendulkar as batsmen... it's really close. I just about lean towards Tendulkar, because the point that Kallis faced lots of Indian bowling and zero South African bowling does have some strength.

I say stuff from personal experience, Flintoff scared me. He was the guy standing between us and victory both as a bowler and batsman. People don't realize that behind his not so impressive stats are his injury problems that ultimately lead to his retirement as well.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Close your eyes and remember any Kallis' knock or bowling performances you remember. Any in 90's? Don't look at the score card or stats. Does anyone even remember Kallis' top 3 highest scores in any of the format. Done. I rest my case.

Averages 55 and gives you 20 decent overs of fast bowling. Isn't it good enough, please don't ask for Youtube videos

 

[Jo_Don]

Flintoff was a mediocre all rounder?

Yes, 32 with the bat and 33 with the ball is mediocre. His bowling average is even worse than Kallis', and Kallis is a batting allrounder. Furthermore he only has 3 5-wicket hauls, and as a bowling allrounder, that's mediocre.

Please don't say anything against Pollock, he was the one of the finest of his era. Again i would like to let my fellow RSA PP'er know that i even rate Pollock higher as an allrounder than Kallis. It's not bias or anything man. Opinions all based on real match performances. Kallis the all rounder died a decade ago.
Anyone who bigs up Kallis as an all rounder needs to watch more cricket than net surfing

I've followed all our tests since readmission, and you can't really compare the two. Pollock was a bowling allrounder, and a world class opening bowler.

But I feel that Kallis added more value to the team - he always had to hold the innings together when the batting collapsed because we had a relatively fragile middle order at the time. That's one of the main reasons that his strike rate was so low early on.

Recently we have very good supporting batsmen in Amla and ABD, and Kallis is now able to play with more freedom. His true class is now evident, supported by the fact that no other test batsman was better than him this past decade.

No they all prove something.
Dravid didn't enjoy the bounce and RSA fielders.
Ponting didn't enjoy our turning tracks.
And Kallis didn't enjoy the challenge posed by his time's finest team.

Every team has a bogey team. It just so happened that Aus was ours and that they were the best at the time.

 

[Jo_Don]

Close your eyes and remember any Kallis' knock or bowling performances you remember. Any in 90's? Don't look at the score card or stats. Does anyone even remember Kallis' top 3 highest scores in any of the format. Done. I rest my case.

Yes, I clearly remember the century he made in the last test to pull us out of trouble at 100-5, and take us into a winning position. And with an injured back too. I can think of many players who would have retired hurt.

 

[James]

I say stuff from personal experience, Flintoff scared me. He was the guy standing between us and victory both as a bowler and batsman. People don't realize that behind his not so impressive stats are his injury problems that ultimately lead to his retirement as well.

Yeah, he was undoubtedly a good all-rounder... not in the Sobers, Imran or even Botham class, but an honourable contributor and servant who will be remembered by many.

You as an Indian fan will remember his immense and often forgotten hand in 2006... arrived in South Asia with a squad that had been decimated by Delhi belly, mental illness and serious physical injury, and captained the team with aplomb. Scored the runs, took the wickets and inspired the boys in every test, finally silencing the Mumbai cauldron by ploughing through the Wall and setting the ailing Shaun Udal loose on the great Tendulkar. The 'Ring of Fire' test is still one of our best results in the subcontinent, and one of Flintoff's many achievements outside of the 2005 Ashes series. Even Dean Jones was forced to take a bow.

Moreover, alongside Kevin Pietersen, Flintoff stands as the only England player in my time that has genuinely seemed to destabilise and even frighten the Aussies. Not always, like Pietersen has - but sometimes. For an England fan watching an Ashes test match - when the Aussies had been battering us for so long - that's a powerful and memorable experience.

At his best, Flintoff had a spiritual effect on the team, the kind that is limited to slightly special international players. This is also why at his worst he always found himself at the root of the problems...

 

[cricketworm]

Yes, I clearly remember the century he made in the last test to pull us out of trouble at 100-5, and take us into a winning position. And with an injured back too. I can think of many players who would have retired hurt.

I remember everything he scored against us in last two series. Other than that what!? When!? Where?! No cheating!

 

[Jo_Don]

I remember everything he scored against us in last two series. Other than that what!? When!? Where?! No cheating!

You asked for one, and I gave you one. But here's another that goes much further back - how about his century against Aus, in Aus, when he was still a new kid on the scene? That saved the test match when we were dead in buried.

Look, the point is in general most people will remember innings that held meaning to them. As an SA supporter, I remember many of Kallis' innings, whereas you might not. As an Indian supporter, you may remember many of Tendulkar's innings, whereas I don't.

 

[James]

Yes, I clearly remember the century he made in the last test to pull us out of trouble at 100-5, and take us into a winning position. And with an injured back too. I can think of many players who would have retired hurt.

Very fine point, but the Indian bowlers did kind of bottle it too. It was theirs to lose and they managed it. Well, they drew.

 

[Jo_Don]

Very fine point, but the Indian bowlers did kind of bottle it too. It was theirs to lose and they managed it. Well, they drew.

True, but the point is that 10 years down the line, that innings would have been forgotten by all those except SA supporters. Similarly, I don't recall many of Tendulkar's, Ponting's or Dravid's great knocks because they held no meaning to me.

I think it's time that people stop harping on about this "how many great knocks do you remember" charade. Just because a great Tendulkar knock would have been memorable to an Indian supporter, doesn't necessarily mean that it applies to everyone else.

In fact, one of the few truly great partnerships that I remember from another team was the one between Artherton/Russel to save the match against us.

 

[Bhaijaan]

True, but the point is that 10 years down the line, that innings would have been forgotten by all those except SA supporters. Similarly, I don't recall many of Tendulkar's, Ponting's or Dravid's great knocks because they held no meaning to me.

I think it's time that people stop harping on about this "how many great knocks do you remember" charade. Just because a great Tendulkar knock would have been memorable to an Indian supporter, doesn't necessarily mean that it applies to everyone else.

In fact, one of the few truly great partnerships that I remember from another team was the one between Artherton/Russel to save the match against us.

Not true, people don't remember a lot of special Kallis knocks not because they are non south africans but because there haven't been many. Of course every hundred is special in some way but you can't match the class and sheer domination of a Tendulkar or Lara
Ponting althugh has stumbled on the stat front still has a lot of special knocks to compete with SRT and Lara.

 

[Jo_Don]

Not true, people don't remember a lot of special Kallis knocks not because they are non south africans but because there haven't been many. Of course every hundred is special in some way but you can't match the class and sheer domination of a Tendulkar or Lara
Ponting althugh has stumbled on the stat front still has a lot of special knocks to compete with SRT and Lara.

Without looking at stats, name 3 from Ponting and 3 from Lara in matches that didn't include India.

 

[James]

Yes, we all have our biases... again, very fair

I would like to acknowledge your compliment on Atherton and Russell with a shout-out for Graeme Smith and his hundred at Edgbaston... we threw everything at him and he stood up in a match when Kallis hadn't even been able to see the ball. Leading your team to its finest triumph since your own country had been ravaged and dissociated - such achievements are truly historic, and override any statistical analyses. I've always rated Smith as your greatest because of this. And then there is that tour to Australia...

 

[Blitz]

Not true, people don't remember a lot of special Kallis knocks not because they are non south africans but because there haven't been many. Of course every hundred is special in some way but you can't match the class and sheer domination of a Tendulkar or Lara
Ponting althugh has stumbled on the stat front still has a lot of special knocks to compete with SRT and Lara.

Again, you are Indian. You can't possibly answer the question of how many 'memorable' knocks Sachin has played.

I can remember a lot of the centuries by Inzi/Younus/Yousuf. You remember your countrymans.


Now for Tendulker/Lara/Ponting.


I can remember loads of Lara's knocks. The 400 comes first. But his destruction of Warne, and Kaneria, leading to massive knocks.


Tendulker.....I can remember one 100. The Sharjah one, in 1997. I know he made a 100 in the WC, absolutely no idea who it was against. England?


Ponting. The WC final knock. The massive knock against sa, world records, etc. Loads...

 

[Jo_Don]

Yes, we all have our biases... again, very fair

I would like to acknowledge your compliment on Atherton and Russell with a shout-out for Graeme Smith and his hundred at Edgbaston... we threw everything at him and he stood up in a match when Kallis hadn't even been able to see the ball. Leading your team to its finest triumph since your own country had been ravaged and dissociated - such achievements are truly historic, and override any statistical analyses. I've always rated Smith as your greatest because of this. And then there is that tour to Australia...

Ditto to Atherton and Russell. It was very frustrating for us, and we had Donald and Pollock in their prime, and even that wasn't enough. With Russell, I just couldn't figure out how somebody with such an unorthodox technique managed to hang in there for so long. A well earned draw if I ever saw one.

Tendulker.....I can remember one 100. The Sharjah one, in 1997. I know he made a 100 in the WC, absolutely no idea who it was against. England?


Ponting. The WC final knock. The massive knock against sa, world records, etc. Loads...

Sure, but how many test knocks of theirs do you remember against teams apart from your own? It illustrates the point that most good knocks are almost always remembered by those whose team was involved in a match. That doesn't take anything away from the class of a batsman.

 

[DC]

Jacques Kallis Test Average is Better than Sachin. Is he better than Sachin in test arena?

No.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Without looking at stats, name 3 from Ponting and 3 from Lara in matches that didn't include India.

Ponting - That 160 he hit against you guys in the 434 run chase match was special, Ashes 2005 hundred , double hundred knock against Pakistan with Akhtar in his prime ( 2005 i guess), Durban hundreds against RSA , 2006

Lara - Come on now

 

[Bhaijaan]

Tendulker.....I can remember one 100. The Sharjah one, in 1997. I know he made a 100 in the WC, absolutely no idea who it was against. England?
.

We are glad you at least said you know who Sachin is , thank you Sir
BTW, i remember all of the good knocks from Inzi, MoYo and YK


Been against us mostly

 

[Bhaijaan]

Sure, but how many test knocks of theirs do you remember against teams apart from your own? It illustrates the point that most good knocks are almost always remembered by those whose team was involved in a match. That doesn't take anything away from the class of a batsman.

LOL this is just utter rubbish bro. People who are like that shouldn't be calling themselves Cricket fans. I even remember that tiny Bangladeshi wicket keepers's hundred against us last we toured there
You always remember the good ones.

Blitz is obviously lying, don't let him fool you. Bet he remembers more hundreds than me )

 

[cricketworm]

You asked for one, and I gave you one. But here's another that goes much further back - how about his century against Aus, in Aus, when he was still a new kid on the scene? That saved the test match when we were dead in buried.

Look, the point is in general most people will remember innings that held meaning to them. As an SA supporter, I remember many of Kallis' innings, whereas you might not. As an Indian supporter, you may remember many of Tendulkar's innings, whereas I don't.

I don't even remember his single ODI knock or 5fier or even decent bowling that beat us. He might have but I don't remember. The point I want to make is I really really really doubt many people remember his 'WOW' innings for years to come or has played in past, even if you are Saffa fan. Kallis really hasn't really picked with the bat before 2009. He has lots of gaps in ODIs and tests for his big knocks before that.

Look, King Kallis is legendary player for SA and very very good athlete. There were more fans of Zulu than Kallis post 'that' Zulu WC. When is the last time you have heard this kind of all rounder performance by Kallis? How many times people have talked about it again and again? I am not denying Kallis' form with the bat in recent time, and SA will need his batting, for them going top rank side. But to tell Kallis better batsman is just a bit stretch. Even his all rounder ability has been scattered through out his career. When you clump them then you realize ... wow these are good numbers.

 

[praveen]

Kallis should be compared to RD in terms of batting. Similar type of players. Averages shouldn't come in the way if the difference isn't vast. Trott averages more than any, so really doesnt say anything.

Kallis outscores sachin heavily in bowling, decently in fielding and fails marginally in batting. My vote for kallis.

edit: typo corrected

 

[kingusama92]

Kallis should be compared to RD in terms of batting. Similar type of players. Averages shouldn't come in the way if the difference isn't vast. Trott averages more than any, so really doesnt say anything.

Kallis outscores sachin heavily in batting, decently in fielding and fails marginally in batting. My vote for kallis.

 

[praveen]

there

 

[kingusama92]

^

Just teasing.

I'd have to agree with your assessment.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Please list out your strong attacks for a country.....

Tendulkar avgd 47-48 againist Ambrose and Walsh in WI

Scored centuries at Perth and Sydney againist Hughes and MCdermott when aged 17-18........has never had a Test series in Australia where he has failed to score a century.......his worst was in 2004....where he scored 240 in his last innings........A series where Mcgrath and Warne didnt play.I have not included likes of Gillespie and Lee and Johnson.

Avged 40 against Donald and Pollock and Ntini led SA...avgs 46...when Steyn(the best fast bowler in world today by some distance).

Debut againist a Pak team of Waqar Wasim Imran and Qadir....at age 16 scored 3 half centuries to avg 37.Didnt play another test againist them till 1999.....scored a 127 on his very 1st match againist Pakistan.....suffered a stress fracture at the back.....continued to play through with pain and fracture...failed in next 4 innings.

For a start.

McGrath.
Donald.
Ambrose.
Wasim.
Waqar.

I think you need to check out your stats in respect of these for a start.

Then we'll move on.


1) Ambrose...
Inzamam-ul-Haq (Pak)
GA Gooch (Eng)
SR Waugh (Aus)
RA Smith (Eng)
DM Jones (Aus)
DC Boon (Aus)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=batting


2) Waqar....
MA Taylor (Aus)
DL Haynes (WI)
AJ Stewart (Eng)
CL Hooper (WI)
MS Atapattu (SL)
A Flower (Zim)
ST Jayasuriya (SL)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=batting


5) Allan Donald....
Azhar Mahmood (Pak)
SR Waugh (Aus)
RD Jacobs (WI)
N Hussain (Eng)
MA Atherton (Eng)
GA Hick (Eng)
AJ Stewart (Eng)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=batting

13) Glenn McGrath....
Saeed Anwar (Pak)
KP Pietersen (Eng)
Ijaz Ahmed (Pak)
MP Vaughan (Eng)
BC Lara (WI)
GP Thorpe (Eng)
VVS Laxman (India)
CL Cairns (NZ)
MR Ramprakash (Eng)
Aamer Sohail (Pak)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=batting

18) Wasim Akram....
SV Manjrekar (India)
MA Taylor (Aus)
MJ Slater (Aus)
ST Jayasuriya (SL)
GP Thorpe (Eng)
HP Tillakaratne (SL)
AJ Stewart (Eng)
ME Waugh (Aus)
GA Gooch (Eng)
CL Hooper (WI)
DL Haynes (WI)
M Azharuddin (India)
A Flower (Zim)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=batting

 

[cricketindiafan]

Sachin has a WC, Kallis has none.
Sachin has a match winning 100 in 4th innings, Kallis has none
Sachin has opened in tests, Kallis has never done so

Sachin is better

/thread

 

[Law]

^^ what about batting at No. 3

 

[cricketindiafan]

^^ what about batting at No. 3

Ok, so its 3-1, still Sachin wins

 

[Blitz]

Ok, so its 3-1, still Sachin wins

Sachin has opened once. In almost 200 test matches.

 

[Law]

^ lol.. You burst the bubble.. khush to hone dete

 

[cricketindiafan]

Sachin has opened once. In almost 200 test matches.

Quantity doesn't matter, fact is he did open

 

[kkmix]

Even my two year old imaginary son is taller than Sachin.

 

[SID_ZONE]

^ and even more taller than Diego Maradona

 

[AlizeeFan]

IMO Kallis alongside Ponting are the best batsmen in the world..

For me it goes.. Kallis, Ponting, Dravid, Tendulkar, Lara..

What about Sangakara and Jayawardane?

Sangakara's average (56.18) is higher than Ponting (53.51), Lara (52.88), Dravid (53), Jaya (52.62).

 

[Poison]

Kallis is a Complete cricket, compare to Sachin only wants to Bat.

 

[Poison]

Reason:Kallis avgs less than 35 againist 3 of the top 5 bowling attacks of his time......Enough said....

This is a legit 100% lie. Kallis only averages under 40 against one team, and that's Sri Lanka, not even close to the best bowling attack of his time. He also has a million wickets/catches. He is a FAR superior cricket to Sachin, not even arguable.

 

[Poison]

To put it in perspective Kallis has played two times the number of Tests as your best quick bowler of all time (Z.Khan), and he still averages just 0.25 above Zaheer.

 

[AlizeeFan]

This is a legit 100% lie. Kallis only averages under 40 against one team, and that's Sri Lanka, not even close to the best bowling attack of his time. He also has a million wickets/catches. He is a FAR superior cricket to Sachin, not even arguable.

Who's Kallis in S2K's post?

 

[Bhaijaan]

To put it in perspective Kallis has played two times the number of Tests as your best quick bowler of all time (Z.Khan), and he still averages just 0.25 above Zaheer.

Kallis the bowler has been comfortably dealt by the better batting line-ups against whom he averages from 35 to 45. Has only done well against the minnows and Pakistan, Lanka, West Indies and we know how their batsmen tremble just at the sight of a South African bowler

 

[Poison]

The great Jaheer also averages 35+ vs Australia, 48 against Pakistan ( ) ), 34.5 v SA and 38 v SL. What's your point? Kallis also averages a full ten points less than Jaheeriya (38) vs Pakistan, so your shot at Pakistan is invalid.

Is it that hard to accept that while Kallis might not be as good a batsman as Tendulkar (arguable even), he is a much better cricketer all round (270 wickets v 45 wickets)?

 

[Bhaijaan]

It's because that's how bad our bowling has been, but a win over ZK alone makes Kallis a threatening bowler ?

Is ZK the yardstick?
Kallis is a competitive bowler whose decent swing, pace, bounce has been good enough for the minnows and the not so great batting generations of Pakistan, Lanka and West Indies during the last decade. My point is that any batting line-up that does not tremble against decent swing, pace, bounce will easily tackle him and will actually target him while playing RSA as is evident from his record against Aussies and Indians as a bowler.

People wont believe looking at stats that Flintoff as a bowler was always miles ahead of Kallis. He was top notch, a poor lad whose career got badly effected by injuries.
I dunno man, last time Kallis felt an all rounder to me was back in 1999

Only going by Imran's definition of an all rounder

 

[Poison]

It's because that's how bad our bowling has been, but a win over ZK alone makes Kallis a threatening bowler ?

Is ZK the yardstick?
Kallis is a competitive bowler whose decent swing, pace, bounce has been good enough for the minnows and the not so great batting generations of Pakistan, Lanka and West Indies during the last decade. My point is that any batting line-up that does not tremble against decent swing, pace, bounce will easily tackle him and will actually target him while playing RSA as is evident from his record against Aussies and Indians as a bowler.

People wont believe looking at stats that Flintoff as a bowler was always miles ahead of Kallis. He was top notch, a poor lad whose career got badly effected by injuries.
I dunno man, last time Kallis felt an all rounder to me was back in 1999

Only going by Imran's definition of an all rounder

It's a useful point indicating that though Kallis' averages against SOME stronger teams leave a bit to be desired, your much championed bowler Zaheer has a similarly poor record against many stronger sides. Why the double standard? His overall average is good. Out of his 270 wickets only 38 are against minnows ... your point is crap.

I'm not saying Kallis was an all rounder in the truest sense of the word (could make the side on batting/bowling alone), but he proved to be an impeccable batsman with a MORE than useful string to his bow with his bowling. Seriously any rational person cannot disagree with this point, he averages higher than Tendulkar with the bat + has an extra 235 wickets, he is CLEARLY a better cricketer overall.

 

[Bhaijaan]

It's a useful point indicating that though Kallis' averages against SOME stronger teams leave a bit to be desired, your much championed bowler Zaheer has a similarly poor record against many stronger sides. Why the double standard? His overall average is good. Out of his 270 wickets only 38 are against minnows ... your point is crap.

I'm not saying Kallis was an all rounder in the truest sense of the word (could make the side on batting/bowling alone), but he proved to be an impeccable batsman with a MORE than useful string to his bow with his bowling. Seriously any rational person cannot disagree with this point, he averages higher than Tendulkar with the bat + has an extra 235 wickets, he is CLEARLY a better cricketer overall.

Rate him highly as a batsman but can completely ignore him on bowling front when i am looking to play a top side.

 

[Jo_Don]

Rate him highly as a batsman but can completely ignore him on bowling front when i am looking to play a top side.

Then what's Zaheer doing in your team, if a bowler of that calibre can be ignored?

Let's put it this way - who would you have as an opening bowler to partner with Zaheer? Srisanth, Ishant, Nehra or Kallis? Don't forget that Kallis can easily hit 140 km/h if he wanted to - we've seen him do it, even though he usually favours swing.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Then what's Zaheer doing in your team, if a bowler of that calibre can be ignored?

Let's put it this way - who would you have as an opening bowler to partner with Zaheer? Srisanth, Ishant, Nehra or Kallis? Don't forget that Kallis can easily hit 140 km/h if he wanted to - we've seen him do it, even though he usually favours swing.

What is Kallis's bowling average in India and Pakistan ? Zaheer has only got better in last 3-4 years

 

[Jo_Don]

What is Kallis's bowling average in India and Pakistan ? Zaheer has only got better in last 3-4 years

India: 38.8
Pakistan: 41.5
SL: 38.5

Zaheer Khan:
India: 34.4
Pakistan: 40.9
SL: 39.9

How is it any different to Kallis apart from the fact that he does better in India (which he should, seeing that it's his home country)?

 

[Bhaijaan]

Another proof of how over rated and inconclusive stats are, Zaheer has been a bowling line-up of his own for India in last few years and probabaly the reason why we got to #1 rank.

Made a quite a few non Indian ex cricketers' XI for the past decade purely as a bowler. Only a geek would say Kallis is better or par with Flintoff and Zaheer as a bowler. The other two have been terrific bowlers

 

[Jo_Don]

Another proof of how over rated and inconclusive stats are, Zaheer has been a bowling line-up of his own for India in last few years and probabaly the reason why we got to #1 rank.

Made a quite a few non Indian ex cricketers' XI for the past decade purely as a bowler. Only a geek would say Kallis is better or par with Flintoff and Zaheer as a bowler. The other two have been terrific bowlers

You asked for bowling averages, and now when it doesn't suit you, then stats become inconclusive? Make up your mind buddy

 

[Poison]

You asked for bowling averages, and now when it doesn't suit you, then stats become inconclusive? Make up your mind buddy

Funny, especially since stats are the only thing that are meant to seal Sachin's legacy in cricket.

 

[cricketindiafan]

India: 38.8
Pakistan: 41.5
SL: 38.5

Zaheer Khan:
India: 34.4
Pakistan: 40.9
SL: 39.9

How is it any different to Kallis apart from the fact that he does better in India (which he should, seeing that it's his home country)?

Kallis has 7 wickets each in each of those countries, thats 21 wickets in 16 tests!! Extend that further and he has 27 wickets in 23 tests he's played in Asia.

With a ball in hand, he's no more than a GTB (green track bully)

 

[Poison]

Kallis has 7 wickets each in each of those countries, thats 21 wickets in 16 tests!! Extend that further and he has 27 wickets in 23 tests he's played in Asia.

With a ball in hand, he's no more than a GTB (green track bully)

That indicates merely that he has not bowled much in those countries.

 

[Jo_Don]

Kallis has 7 wickets each in each of those countries, thats 21 wickets in 16 tests!! Extend that further and he has 27 wickets in 23 tests he's played in Asia.

With a ball in hand, he's no more than a GTB (green track bully)

Riiiiiiight, so it's his fault that he doesn't play much cricket in Asia.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Riiiiiiight, so it's his fault that he doesn't play much cricket in Asia.

Naah his problem is he doesn't take too many wickets in Asia and is used more as a partnership breaker or to rest the main bowlers.

 

[Jo_Don]

Naah his problem is he doesn't take too many wickets in Asia and is used more as a partnership breaker or to rest the main bowlers.

Nobody claimed otherwise His role as a bowler is clearly defined - to support the main bowlers. He's never had to serve as a strike bowler, but I'm pretty sure that he could up his game if called on to do so.

The comparisons to Zaheer and Flintoff are valid - in the sense that even as strike bowlers, their records are still similar to Kallis'. So there are two outcomes:
1) If Kallis is a poor bowler, then so are Zaheer and Flintoff.
2) If Zaheer and Flintoff are good bowlers, then so is Kallis.

 

[cricketworm]

Nobody claimed otherwise His role as a bowler is clearly defined - to support the main bowlers. He's never had to serve as a strike bowler, but I'm pretty sure that he could up his game if called on to do so.

The comparisons to Zaheer and Flintoff are valid - in the sense that even as strike bowlers, their records are still similar to Kallis'. So there are two outcomes:
1) If Kallis is a poor bowler, then so are Zaheer and Flintoff.
2) If Zaheer and Flintoff are good bowlers, then so is Kallis.

Zaheer is best bowler on flat pitches at the moment. There is no-one better than him at the moment (disregarding his fitness)

 

[cricketindiafan]

Nobody claimed otherwise His role as a bowler is clearly defined - to support the main bowlers. He's never had to serve as a strike bowler, but I'm pretty sure that he could up his game if called on to do so.

The comparisons to Zaheer and Flintoff are valid - in the sense that even as strike bowlers, their records are still similar to Kallis'. So there are two outcomes:
1) If Kallis is a poor bowler, then so are Zaheer and Flintoff.
2) If Zaheer and Flintoff are good bowlers, then so is Kallis.

The argument that he hasn't bowled enough in Asia is weak.

Just for comparison, Sachin has 45 wickets in 170 odd tests. Can I say he would have taken 200+ if he bowled more? Or that he could have been a strike bowler in spin friendly conditions? Nope, cos the number of wickets he has taken is too low. Ditto with Kallis' record in Asia. Didn't bowl more cos he wasn't suited to those conditions.

 

[Poison]

If we accept that Kallis is a GTB with the ball in hand ... what does that prove to add to your argument regarding the thread title at hand? With 270 wickets he cannot have been a completely **** poor bowler, and with an average of 57 he trumps Tendulkar with the bat. Is he (in your opinion) a greater overall cricketer than Sachin in Tests?

 

[cricketindiafan]

If we accept that Kallis is a GTB with the ball in hand ... what does that prove to add to your argument regarding the thread title at hand? With 270 wickets he cannot have been a completely **** poor bowler, and with an average of 57 he trumps Tendulkar with the bat. Is he (in your opinion) a greater overall cricketer than Sachin in Tests?

Obviously.

Next only to Gary Sobers as an overall cricketer. The greatest ever cricketer from SA.

And even if his average goes down to 53-54 in the next few years, won't make him a lesser batsman. Will still remain a legend of all times.

 

[Phool]

Sachin is the best cricketer of this era.

 

[SID_ZONE]

Funny, especially since stats are the only thing that are meant to seal Sachin's legacy in cricket.

O'rly?

Are those who played with/against him also voicing their opinions merely on the basis of Sachin's stats?

Jinx threads while one's own country involved is a common practise but here's a guy who couldn't resist himself and started a jinx thread when an Indian was approcahing one of the biggest milestones ever in cricket against not Pakistan but against England! You think your take on Tendulkar has any credibility? you mad brah

 

[Bhaijaan]

You asked for bowling averages, and now when it doesn't suit you, then stats become inconclusive? Make up your mind buddy

Already talked about how having comparable bolwing stats to Zaheer make him no better bowler as ZK himself no yardstick.

@Poison - SRT prevails and that doesn't need any statistical proof. Live with it.

 

[Poison]

SID_ZONE ... Nah I straight up hate Tendulkar, I threw that out there a while ago and will stand by it, say what you will. U mad brah?

And no, Tendulkar's legacy is his unmatchable run scoring feats, his 99 (LOL JINX THREAD WINZ) hundreds and probably his 200*.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Will be something if you can pull this off

I'm not sure what you are expecting other than time contributes to stats.

If you are expecting the paper to be a judge of calibre, then you have the wrong end of the stick.

 

[shah_1]

The way he bowled against England was mesmerizing and just have to look at Ian bell dismissal to know a how a useful bowler he is and also Kallis is one of the best slip catcher as well.


Kallis is a definitely a better cricketer with his all round ability but Sachin is a better batsmen. If I had to pick one I would say Kallis.

 

[Indiafan]

Funny, especially since stats are the only thing that are meant to seal Sachin's legacy in cricket.

I'm not sure what you are expecting other than time contributes to stats.

If you are expecting the paper to be a judge of calibre, then you have the wrong end of the stick.

Whenever I see the ignorance exhibited in such posts I have to laugh out aloud. I am not sure whether you guys are really ignorant or pretending to be. Because Sachin was considered one of the best ever, was included in most all time lists by everyone, was in every comparison for best batsman way back in the 90s. This was much before he even came close to Gavaskar's records of most 100s or any other world records and if you are deliberately ignoring this, you are being dishonest

 

[Indiafan]

If you are expecting the paper to be a judge of calibre, then you have the wrong end of the stick.

No, but I am expecting most experts of the game, current and ex players, crticis, players of the caliber of Bradman, Warne, etc who all put Sachin ahead of Kallis as a better jugge of caliber than an anonymous poster on the internet with a clear bias against one player

 

[Indiafan]

Kallis is a definitely a better cricketer with his all round ability but Sachin is a better batsmen..

I agree with this assesment. In fact India would have given anything to have a Kallis instead of Sachin in the 90s, his bowling would have been much more useful and needful than Sachin's batting

 

[Bhaijaan]

Tendulkar over Kallis any day. Better batsman, better cricketer.

 

[shah_1]

Tendulkar over Kallis any day. Better batsman, better cricketer.

TYPICAL SACHIN FANS.... ALWAYS in denial.

 

[lilFlip]

Kallis = [Sachin+Zaheer]

 

[Jo_Don]

Tendulkar over Kallis any day. Better batsman, better cricketer.

In what way is he a better cricketer?

 

[Anfield]

Kallis as a cricketer>>Tendulkar. If I have to pick one it would be Kallis.

 

[Inziquicksingle]

To say Tendulkar is a better batsman is reasonable I guess. Whos the better cricketer? Not even close. The taller guy.

 

[Buffet]

In what way is he a better cricketer?

Batting, Bowling & Fielding taken together Kallis > Tendulkar. I will also like to hear why Sachin is better Cricketer.

 

[Jo_Don]

Outbowled Steyn, taking the wickets of KP and Bell for 38 runs, then follows it up with 82*. Not a bad couple of days for him.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kallis's bowling has rarely done the damage against top teams. Pseudo Allrounder

 

[Jo_Don]

Kallis's bowling has rarely done the damage against top teams. Pseudo Allrounder

You obviously haven't watched his performance against England in this match. He outbowled both Steyn and Philander. He doesn't seem to do damage because the others usually do, but when they don't then he pulls his weight like he did in this match.

That still doesn't answer the question, in what way is Tendulkar a better cricketer?

 

[Buffet]

Kallis's bowling has rarely done the damage against top teams. Pseudo Allrounder

He is not a strike bowler but I would not call him Pseudo Allrounder. In my opinion he has done enough with 2-3 wickets here and there with good batting record and good fielding to come ahead of Sachin. Having watched both in their prime against best bowlers, I admit that as a batsman there is no comparison but point was about better cricketer.

 

[shah_1]

Kallis's bowling has rarely done the damage against top teams. Pseudo Allrounder

Are you watching the match EngVsSa. IF are watching then kallis bowling was reason that turned around the match. Did you see him getting KP out (who is in form of his life) and bell. Bell dismissal was excellent piece of bowling by setting bell for the in swinger.

He didn't take as many wickets in 153 matches because SA always had great bowlers in their sides so he was never a front line seamer. he always supported these seamer rather being a strike bowler. He never got bowl enough overs to boost his wicket column.he was a good bowler that is supported by his average that is same as Zaheer.


If he was in Indian side than I am 100% sure he would taken more wickets