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Jacques Kallis' Test average is better than Sachin Tendulkar. Is he a better batsman?

Poor Kallis, he will always remain an enigma for the World XI All-time fetish selections.

How many in here would have him over the likes Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Shaun Pollock, Sobers?

How many in here would have him over Richards, Maindad, Lara, Tendulkar?

Kallis is a great batsman but his bowling success has come largely on seam friendly conditions and against weaker batting sides.

Unfortunately Kallis will never make it to an All-time XI because the cruelty of such a team's dynamic won't really require his bowling services (since there are better bowling all-rounders) and the excellence of the other batsmen means the team won't need his batting too often, and hence why many pundits tend not to class Kallis as "legend".

i.e. why have Kallis when you already have better batsmen averaging 50+ from positions 1 to 6, you rather have an all-rounder who is heavy on the bowling side at no.7 with abit of dare devilry in him.
 
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Green Leopard said:
Poor Kallis, he will always remain an enigma for the World XI All-time fetish selections.

How many in here would have him over the likes Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Shaun Pollock, Sobers?

How many in here would have him over Richards, Maindad, Lara, Tendulkar?

Kallis is a great batsman but his bowling success has come largely on seam friendly conditions and against weaker batting sides.

Unfortunately Kallis will never make it to an All-time XI because the cruelty of such a team's dynamic won't really require his bowling services (since there are better bowling all-rounders) and the excellence of the other batsmen means the team won't need his batting too often, and hence why many pundits tend not to class Kallis as "legend".

i.e. why have Kallis when you already have better batsmen averaging 50+ from positions 1 to 6, you rather have an all-rounder who is heavy on the bowling side at no.7 with abit of dare devilry in him.
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There is no injustice for Kallis.

Nothing is stopping him to step up as a bowler on a given day like Flintoff did instead of being an accumulator/partnership breaker who's rare good day is against a lower grade side.

Nothing stopped him to show his steal against the dominant Aussie side as a batsman. Nothing stops him to play those heroic knocks with the bat.

Smith is everything that Kallis hasn't been.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
There is no injustice for Kallis.

Nothing is stopping him to step up as a bowler on a given day like Flintoff did instead of being an accumulator/partnership breaker who's rare good day is against a lower grade side.

Nothing stopped him to show his steal against the dominant Aussie side as a batsman. Nothing stops him to play those heroic knocks with the bat.

Smith is everything that Kallis hasn't been.
Click to expand...

And rightly so, the South African media have always labeled Kallis "selfish".
South Africans (I feel) never celebrated Kallis like they have with Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Smith, and currently Amla, Steyn or AB De Villiers.
 
The paradox of Kallis is, given choice between Tendulkar or Kallis for your average Test team, mnay would pick Kallis hands down, including me.
But for an all-time (or any time) World XI, Kallis would miss out against a choice vs Tendulkar, Ponting, Graeme Smith, Amla, Lara, Richards etc.

My opinion.
 
Green Leopard said:
And rightly so, the South African media have always labeled Kallis "selfish".
South Africans (I feel) never celebrated Kallis like they have with Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Smith, and currently Amla, Steyn or AB De Villiers.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most pathetic post I have read in my life mate. Just look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVNPD_xCAZ4 see after 6.38 and see how much crowd, media and his team mate love him.

Green Leopard said:
Unfortunately Kallis will never make it to an All-time XI
why many pundits tend not to class Kallis as "legend".
Click to expand...

Mate we are not talking about all time XI here, for me as well Kallis won't make into XI because there are better batsmen and all-rounder like sober.

Here we are talking about Kallis as a cricketer compared to Tendu. I still would say Kallis is better cricketer then sachin but sachin is a better batsmen.
 
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Green Leopard said:
The paradox of Kallis is, given choice between Tendulkar or Kallis for your average Test team, mnay would pick Kallis hands down, including me.
But for an all-time (or any time) World XI, Kallis would miss out against a choice vs Tendulkar, Ponting, Graeme Smith, Amla, Lara, Richards etc.

My opinion.
Click to expand...

Green Leopard vs Australia 2000-2007 / West Indies 1975-1990

Would you really pick Kallis over Tendulkar/Lara?
 
kallis is the most textbook batsman I have ever seen, the other is sanga.

sanga is the textbook left hander and kallis the text book right hander.

both have amazing averages I think both average 56+.
 
speed said:
kallis is the most textbook batsman I have ever seen, the other is sanga.

sanga is the textbook left hander and kallis the text book right hander.

both have amazing averages I think both average 56+.
Click to expand...

I thought Lara is left handed text book batsman?
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Green Leopard vs Australia 2000-2007 / West Indies 1975-1990

Would you really pick Kallis over Tendulkar/Lara?
Click to expand...

With India as the opposition and already Dravid, Ganguly, and Laxman in the team, then I would pick Kallis due to India's below par bowling attack.

With Pakistan or South Africa, I would definitely pick Tendulkar/Lara over Kallis.

Simples :)
 
Green Leopard said:
With India as the opposition and already Dravid, Ganguly, and Laxman in the team, then I would pick Kallis due to India's below par bowling attack.

With Pakistan or South Africa, I would definitely pick Tendulkar/Lara over Kallis.

Simples :)
Click to expand...

Sorry but I'd never replace Kallis with Tendulkar in our side. Somebody else maybe, but not Kallis. It throws the balance of the team off. He showed the benefit of having a 4th seamer in this match.

Still waiting for an explanation from f_c about what makes Tendulkar a better cricketer ;-)
 
Jo_Don said:
Sorry but I'd never replace Kallis with Tendulkar in our side. Somebody else maybe, but not Kallis. It throws the balance of the team off. He showed the benefit of having a 4th seamer in this match.

Still waiting for an explanation from f_c about what makes Tendulkar a better cricketer ;-)
Click to expand...

He is better at being bhagwan. That's about it.
 
Green Leopard said:
With India as the opposition and already Dravid, Ganguly, and Laxman in the team, then I would pick Kallis due to India's below par bowling attack.

With Pakistan or South Africa, I would definitely pick Tendulkar/Lara over Kallis.

Simples :)
Click to expand...

That's a totally difference case. Talking about Indian team, even a swap with Stuart Broad would prove to be more useful and a team like Pakistan would gladly take a Jonathan Trott for one of its star bowlers. That's not how individual utilities should be measured, in relative terms.

Player vs Player, Kallis loses out to Tendulkar, Lara and probably Ponting as well. His bowling is largely irrelevant. I have seen comparisons with Zaheer, Kapil Dev etc trying to suggest he is as good as them. Well, no. Zaheer, Kapil etc have all CARRIED Indian bowlign attack on their back alone for a decade and were not partnership breakers who took advantage of pressure exerted by Pollock, Donald, Ntini, Morkel, Steyn etc.
 
BTW congrats Kallis hits a ton. Supporters will be on a high today. Will bump it some other day when they will get settled and be ready again to understand why Kallis is not an A+
 
As a Cricketer Kallis probably best of his generation.
As batsmen Tendu and Lara are league above everyone else with Sachin ahead among both of them.
 
Average is not everything

If we were to judge a batsman purely by his average then Samaraweera is a better batsman than Viv Richards!

No sane, knowledgeable cricketer or fan would buy that
 
Best Cricketer of a generation doesn't go hiding against top team of his generation. Doesn't ruin big chases by playing slow.


He also stamps his authority in big world cup/Champions Trophy matches for all to remember.
 
I put an ''also''. Doesn't apply to players who didn't play ODIs at all
 
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freelance_cricketer said:
Best Cricketer of a generation doesn't go hiding against top team of his generation. Doesn't ruin big chases by playing slow.
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This is about Sanga, right?
Kallis has been an immense legend for his team and is now getting a 150 against the top team of this generation
 
Very fine knock today. Credit to him. Of course a great player. :14:
 
As test batsmen, neither Kallis nor Sanga can beat Tendulkar. But as players, hands down!
 
As a all-rounder he brings more value to the team than SRT. Definitely better than Sachin in value for his team.
 
Look at him taking England apart right now and tell me that he can't dominate.
 
Kallis is having an amazing...end (?) to his career. Last few years he has been awesome.

First name on the teamsheet in a World XI fo sho.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Best Cricketer of a generation doesn't go hiding against top team of his generation. Doesn't ruin big chases by playing slow.


He also stamps his authority in big world cup/Champions Trophy matches for all to remember.
Click to expand...

He is better than SRT in test matches only.
 
I rate them the same in Tests, both are run scoring machines. Overall Sachin is ahead. Ahead of most actually.

And I meant as pure batsmen. Kallis is the better cricketer of course.
 
AZulfi said:
Average is not everything

If we were to judge a batsman purely by his average then Samaraweera is a better batsman than Viv Richards!

No sane, knowledgeable cricketer or fan would buy that
Click to expand...

Problem is with your understanding of "average"

Viv was pathetic in the end of his career and that effected his average .. he could have retired earlier to have better average than Samaraweera...

anyway, back to Topic..

any day, Kallis >>> (Lara + SRT)
 
Black Zero said:
Problem is with your understanding of "average"

Viv was pathetic in the end of his career and that effected his average .. he could have retired earlier to have better average than Samaraweera...

anyway, back to Topic..

any day, Kallis >>> (Lara + SRT)
Click to expand...

as a batsman?
 
From 1995 when Kallis made his debut, the test stats for him and Tendulkar are:

Player Tests Runs Avg 100s
Kallis 153 12561 57.61 43
Tendulkar 150 12987 56.22 43

Very similar stats between these two.

Kallis played mostly on bouncy pitches in SA, had to share a heavy workload of bowling, but didn't do well against the best team of his era(Aus), and the team with the best offspinner(SL).

Sachin played in a team with a poor bowling attack, did well against the best team of his era, and has outlasted his peers.

IMO, Sachin the Test batsman is slightly ahead of Kallis the batsman. Slightly because Kallis has reached a new level since the last couple of years.

As a cricketer, Kallis is much ahead of Sachin, and even Ponting and Lara.
 
With one innings, Kallis' average in England went from 29 to 38. He does a great job of answering his critics. Took 2 good wickets when it mattered too.
 
kallis is certainly comparable to sashin purely as a batsman, as others have said as a total package though he's a better cricketer than tendulkar.
 
Anyone done this yet?

23817457.jpg
 
insaan said:
From 1995 when Kallis made his debut, the test stats for him and Tendulkar are:

Player Tests Runs Avg 100s
Kallis 153 12561 57.61 43
Tendulkar 150 12987 56.22 43

Very similar stats between these two.

Kallis played mostly on bouncy pitches in SA, had to share a heavy workload of bowling, but didn't do well against the best team of his era(Aus), and the team with the best offspinner(SL).

Sachin played in a team with a poor bowling attack, did well against the best team of his era, and has outlasted his peers.

IMO, Sachin the Test batsman is slightly ahead of Kallis the batsman. Slightly because Kallis has reached a new level since the last couple of years.

As a cricketer, Kallis is much ahead of Sachin, and even Ponting and Lara.
Click to expand...

That is not true. He had Klusener and atleast 3 others allrounders like Boje,Cronje most of the time.(ofcourse Donald,Pollock,Ntini were there to share that 'HEAVY WORKLOAD')
Last 4 years his bowling workload is anything but heavy. compare him with Watson in just no. of overs.
He has been a better cricketer than SRT.
As a batsman I'm not sure.
 
BTW If it wasn't for Tennis elbow, Tendulkar's spin exploration was quite vicious as well.
 
Kallis's batting average in england was poor b4 , but his bowling average in englad was good.

As a player , his batting average vs austarlia is 40 which is his low point , but again 40 is still not bad.
 
Lethalweapon said:
That is not true. He had Klusener and atleast 3 others allrounders like Boje,Cronje most of the time.(ofcourse Donald,Pollock,Ntini were there to share that 'HEAVY WORKLOAD')
Last 4 years his bowling workload is anything but heavy. compare him with Watson in just no. of overs.
He has been a better cricketer than SRT.
As a batsman I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

Kallis bowled 12.54 overs per innings.
Donald and Pollock 20 overs each, and they were specialist bowlers.

That is still heavy workload for someone who bats up the order.

Btw, Watson bowls 10.5 overs per innings.
 
insaan said:
Kallis bowled 12.54 overs per innings.
Donald and Pollock 20 overs each, and they were specialist bowlers.

That is still heavy workload for someone who bats up the order.

Btw, Watson bowls 10.5 overs per innings.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with the word 'heavy' for that workload.
 
A better cricketer YES mainly due to his all round skills.
Better batsman NO mainly because he had gone missing against Australia at their prime. IIRC he was especially vulnerable against two greatest spinners of the modern game: Warne and Murali while Sachin was as comfortable as any other batsman against them.
P.S: In ODIs Sachin is a much better batsman than Kallis mainly due to his aggression as well as performances on the biggest stage ie World Cups
 
Anfield said:
Actually he avg against Australia wasn't bad at all.
Click to expand...

According to Wiki (prior to Dec 2008 series) "Prior to the series, Kallis had a batting average of 38.32 in 18 Tests against the number one ranked team, substantially lower than his overall average of 55.06" In this series there was no Mcgrath or Warne so I think currently his average has got better.
 
Yes. Stats are stats!
Can't beat 'em join 'em............especially on this one.

Also can the computer programming geeks here tell me how many winning test match centuries for both - home and away.

Thanks
 
Amoeba said:
Yes. Stats are stats!
Can't beat 'em join 'em............especially on this one.

Also can the computer programming geeks here tell me how many winning test match centuries for both - home and away.

Thanks
Click to expand...

20 for both.
 
scored 22 at home and 21 away ..

out of his 43 hundreds only 3 resulted in losses.. ( 2 vs aus and 1 vs india ) :D
 
So there you go the figures prove it. Kallis a better batsman then Tendu.

Case closed. Next!
 
what is his bowling stats against top teams if u take away bangladesh and zimbabwe?
 
Well well well, need to bump this up during COVID. This is a great debate.

I think Kallis is better than Sachin.
 
As a cricketer, Kallis is definitely right up there. Between 1995- 2003, he was a genuine all-rounder. After that, he became a all-time great batsmen who did a containing job with the bowl. The only problem with his stats is that even after 2003, his great innings mostly remained in limelight of Graeme Smith and Hashim Amla and they would come up in supporting role more often.

Tendulkar, on other hand, was literally a GOAT batsmen(only behind Bradman perhaps) from 1993- 2002 averaging 62 during that 10 years time period with 7500 runs but after that, he had a bad phase due to tennis elbow till 2006 and then he revamped himself back in 2007 till '11.

<B><I>Ponting at its peak averaged 67 in tests during 2001-2007 time period but I would argue the attack Tendulkar faced between 1993-2002 was much tougher and harder and he averaged 62 at that time and that came over a longer time period of 10 years.</B></I>
 
Ab Fan said:
As a cricketer, Kallis is definitely right up there. Between 1995- 2003, he was a genuine all-rounder. After that, he became a all-time great batsmen who did a containing job with the bowl. The only problem with his stats is that even after 2003, his great innings mostly remained in limelight of Graeme Smith and Hashim Amla and they would come up in supporting role more often.

Tendulkar, on other hand, was literally a GOAT batsmen(only behind Bradman perhaps) from 1993- 2002 averaging 62 during that 10 years time period with 7500 runs but after that, he had a bad phase due to tennis elbow till 2006 and then he revamped himself back in 2007 till '11.

<B><I>Ponting at its peak averaged 67 in tests during 2001-2007 time period but I would argue the attack Tendulkar faced between 1993-2002 was much tougher and harder and he averaged 62 at that time and that came over a longer time period of 10 years.</B></I>
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what?I dint know this. tenda averaged 62 between 1993-2002?

However the tougher bowling era was post 2000.

Tenda was past his prime post 2003 ish. What was his average between 2003-2010?
must have been in the 40s.
 
Pre Tennis elbow, there was no comparison, SRT was all alone in his own league. However post Tennis Elbow, Kallis and SRT were neck and neck with Kallis overall offering more value because he could bowl also...
 
Ab Fan said:
As a cricketer, Kallis is definitely right up there. Between 1995- 2003, he was a genuine all-rounder. After that, he became a all-time great batsmen who did a containing job with the bowl. The only problem with his stats is that even after 2003, his great innings mostly remained in limelight of Graeme Smith and Hashim Amla and they would come up in supporting role more often.

Tendulkar, on other hand, was literally a GOAT batsmen(only behind Bradman perhaps) from 1993- 2002 averaging 62 during that 10 years time period with 7500 runs but after that, he had a bad phase due to tennis elbow till 2006 and then he revamped himself back in 2007 till '11.

<B><I>Ponting at its peak averaged 67 in tests during 2001-2007 time period but I would argue the attack Tendulkar faced between 1993-2002 was much tougher and harder and he averaged 62 at that time and that came over a longer time period of 10 years.</B></I>
Click to expand...

yeah agree. I watched most of Sachin during that period and tried to model my pathetic game around how he would play. Kallis was an amazing batsmen, very underrated.

the difference was he was in a allround better team. Sachin was in a poor team most of the time and for you to also play under the pressure of a billion who know your the only one who is good and still fight against the best attacks I have seen, is not a mean feat.

ponting didnt face mcgrath, kallis didnt face donals and pollock. Sachin faced them all..rate him very highly..
 
tyron_woodley said:
what?I dint know this. tenda averaged 62 between 1993-2002?

However the tougher bowling era was post 2000.

Tenda was past his prime post 2003 ish. What was his average between 2003-2010?
must have been in the 40s.
Click to expand...

That's the problem with people who have watched Tendulkar only post 2003. The memory is of an accumulator which he wasn't . He averaged 44 between 2003 to 2006 and again an average of 61 between 2007-2010.

In case you are interested, between 1993-2010(17 years time period), SRT averaged almost 59 in test cricket over 150+ test matches and about 13500 runs and this includes the short period where he had to deal with tennis elbow.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...3;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

For such a long period or with that many runs, you will find harder to name me one cricketer who has a peak of 10,000+ runs and an average over 55, let alone 59 with 13500 runs.
 
Ab Fan said:
That's the problem with people who have watched Tendulkar only post 2003. The memory is of an accumulator which he wasn't . He averaged 44 between 2003 to 2006 and again an average of 61 between 2007-2010.

In case you are interested, <B><I>between 1993-2010(17 years time period), SRT averaged almost 59 in test cricket over 150+ test matches and about 13500 runs and this includes the short period where he had to deal with tennis elbow.</B></I>

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...3;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

For such a long period or with that many runs, you will find harder to name me one cricketer who has a peak of 10,000+ runs and an average over 55, let alone 59 with 13500 runs.
Click to expand...

Bolded part.
 
Ab Fan said:
That's the problem with people who have watched Tendulkar only post 2003. The memory is of an accumulator which he wasn't . He averaged 44 between 2003 to 2006 and again an average of 61 between 2007-2010.

In case you are interested, between 1993-2010(17 years time period), SRT averaged almost 59 in test cricket over 150+ test matches and about 13500 runs and this includes the short period where he had to deal with tennis elbow.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...3;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

For such a long period or with that many runs, you will find harder to name me one cricketer who has a peak of 10,000+ runs and an average over 55, let alone 59 with 13500 runs.
Click to expand...

Sachin was a better batsman but kallis was a better cricketer. The Fact that kallis had a higher average overall than Sachin while bowling was a massive achievement.
 
Pakhs said:
Sachin was a better batsman but kallis was a better cricketer. The Fact that kallis had a higher average overall than Sachin while bowling was a massive achievement.
Click to expand...

I love Kallis the test cricketer but he is not better than Tendulkar. SRT stats are highly misleading and when I tried to put longevity into perspective, it explains us all we have to know.

No point undermining a bloke who averaged 59 for 17 years of his career during the age period 20-37 which is basically the whole career of Ponting, Kallis and Dravid.
 
Ab Fan said:
I love Kallis the test cricketer but he is not better than Tendulkar. SRT stats are highly misleading and when I tried to put longevity into perspective, it explains us all we have to know.

No point undermining a bloke who averaged 59 for 17 years of his career during the age period 20-37 which is basically the whole career of Ponting, Kallis and Dravid.
Click to expand...

There is no one undermining Sachin his stats are there which are good too - But kallis was definitely better cricketer. He averaged more than Sachin and also was seam bowler with 300+ wickets thats amazing.

When it comes to just batting you cant usually argue with averages for long periods but I saw both bat for majority of their careers and Sachin just seemed a better batsman.
 
Kallis and Sachin have different roles. Sachin was more aggresive while Kallis was better coming in during really tough situations. Kallis struggles to get into ATG XI's given the bowling of Sobers is already present, and there are better reliable players at coming in in crunch situations. Sachin is one of the best with Sobers, Viv, Lara at playing all types of bowling aggresively
 
Tendulkar played 200 test matches.

Until you have also played 200 test mat he's and averaged better, you do not average better than Tendulkar.

Even Sir Donald Bradman DOES NOT average better than Tendulkar. He only played 1/3rd of Tendulkars tally of test matches. Thatis after 500 more LOIs played by Tendulkar is ignored.

We respect Sir Don for all that he achieved in 69 test matches and he is the GOAT.

But that same respect applies to Tendulkar. The guy played 200 test matches let that sink in.

Nobody will ever be a better test cricketee until he's done better than him in 200 test matches
 
Kallis is definitely better. Tendulkar was world class but definitely not GOAT level like his fans claim - his average is excellent but there are also other batsmen who have similiar averages.
 
Both were brilliant players, both had great averages but the only criticism of Kallis was that he never had another gear. I think deciding who is better between brilliant players depends on what qualities you value most for example the people that consider Viv to be the greatest admire his gladiatorial courage, whereas Lara is loved for his stroke play, Tendulkar for his handling of expectations etc.
 
Another mandatory Sachin vs XYZ post on Pakpassion, one is an all rounder, one is a batsmen, there is no comparison, but again, the idea is to inflate our fragile ego and show how Tendulkar is an inferior batsmen by comparing him with every other sportsmen possible.
For me, if people compare every player with Sachin, then it is because Sachin is a yardstick against whom better players are compared.
 
Faizhassan said:
Another mandatory Sachin vs XYZ post on Pakpassion, one is an all rounder, one is a batsmen, there is no comparison, but again, the idea is to inflate our fragile ego and show how Tendulkar is an inferior batsmen by comparing him with every other sportsmen possible.
For me, if people compare every player with Sachin, then it is because Sachin is a yardstick against whom better players are compared.
Click to expand...

Beautifully summarised.

Some people will come here to prove Kallis is better but somehow in another thread they would still feel the need to emphasize how Steve Smith is also better than Sachin or how Sangakkara/Ponting/Younis/Cook/Amla/Viv etc etc are better than Sachin too.


Yet we rarely see Smith vs Kallis, Lara vs Younis, Viv vs Kallis

Why?

Sachin is THE yardstick

He captured the imagination of a generation in the 1990 and the Hangover hasn't yet left the masses
 
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