Kargil war a disaster, Musharraf tried to cover it up

[PetroDollars]

Kargil was a major diplomatic victory for India, it worth more than any wars we fought before. We have to thank your Musharraf for that, any other general would have had common-sense.

A diplomatic victory thanks to Nawaz Sharif and a military disaster thanks to Musharraf

Yea, go thank Musharraf. )

 

[Senman]

A diplomatic victory thanks to Nawaz Sharif and a military disaster thanks to Musharraf

Yea, go thank Musharraf. )

But how is that a disaster? according to you who won?

I am thanking Mr. Musharraf through this thread.

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

Kargil was a major diplomatic victory for India, it worth more than any wars we fought before. We have to thank your Musharraf for that, any other general would have had common-sense.

lol, are you being stupid, you should thank nawaz shreef not musharraf for this diplomatic victory, btw, your american daddy was always with you because the jewish lobby always backed india against pakistan because of obvious reasons(pakistan not accepting israel and backing palestine), so no, it was not the actual diplomatic victory for india

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

A diplomatic victory thanks to Nawaz Sharif and a military disaster thanks to Musharraf

Yea, go thank Musharraf. )

how is that a military disaster, do you know one of the strategically crucial tiger hills still occupied by pakistan?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yx4Ra2kM2Ds" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Senman]

lol, are you being stupid, you should thank nawaz shreef not musharraf for this diplomatic victory, btw, your american daddy was always with you because the jewish lobby always backed india against pakistan because of obvious reasons(pakistan not accepting israel and backing palestine), so no, it was not the actual diplomatic victory for india

American daddy? jewish lobby? Israel , Palestine? dude we are talking about Kargil and Musharraf. Ok, I will thank both Nawaz Sharif and Musharraf, how's that sound?

 

[PetroDollars]

how is that a military disaster, do you know one of the strategically crucial tiger hills still occupied by pakistan?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yx4Ra2kM2Ds" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes, its occumpied by pakistan and so are 4 others, hence its a military disaster for India and a diplomatic disaster for us.

 

[PetroDollars]

But how is that a disaster? according to you who won?

I am thanking Mr. Musharraf through this thread.

we never achived our objectives, no one won because of the ceasefire HOWEVER we crushed your army and gained territory, we only lost out on diplomacy thanks to a buffoon prime minister,

 

[Senman]

we never achived our objectives, no one won because of the ceasefire HOWEVER we crushed your army and gained territory, we only lost out on diplomacy thanks to a buffoon prime minister,

thats a loss bro. Lets forget that for a moment, look at some of his achievements 1999 coup, support for WOT, letting drone attacks inside Pakistan. I simply don't get the logic behind your support for Mr.Musharraf but for us he is a great hero, I dearly wish he gets elected and rule once again.

 

[PetroDollars]

thats a loss bro. Lets forget that for a moment, look at some of his achievements 1999 coup, support for WOT, letting drone attacks inside Pakistan. I simply don't get the logic behind your support for Mr.Musharraf but for us he is a great hero, I dearly wish he gets elected and rule once again.

support for Mush )

Where am i supporting him?

I am talking about the Kargil war, it was the right plan and strategy however with the wrong government.

 

[Senman]

support for Mush )

Where am i supporting him?

I am talking about the Kargil war, it was the right plan and strategy however with the wrong government.

Exactly, thats what Mr.Musharraf was, always preempting and never listens to elected leaders + this, he is worth his weight in diamonds, thats how valuable he was for India.

 

[Itachi]

lol, are you being stupid, you should thank nawaz shreef not musharraf for this diplomatic victory, btw, your american daddy was always with you because the jewish lobby always backed india against pakistan because of obvious reasons(pakistan not accepting israel and backing palestine), so no, it was not the actual diplomatic victory for india

this is a new news to me. Please explain more because i thought it was opposite.

 

[youboy]

Pervaiz Musharraf Replying to Kargil War Allegations AryNews 11th Hour 30th January 2013

[utube]bEgb9SlVtmI[/utube]

 

[Cracket]

What's the point? With US raids and drones killing your innocents, all Pakistan can think about at this moment is shitty covert ops to schedule another war with India?

 

[Jeetu111]

)
People actually taking General (Retarded) Shahid Aziz seriously, this guys an idiot and chumcha of Ganja who has come out after 13 years only to help Ganjas election campaign.

Its a fact India got battered hard by Pak army in kargil even the guy that led you in war says so, but ofcouse indians will always remain in denial.

oh yes ....we all know the score as 4-0 . battering indeed

 

[ReluctantT]

Mush tried to attack India based on fake missiles )

People here call him intelligent

 

[the Great Khan]

oh yes ....we all know the score as 4-0 . battering indeed

lol...is this what their teaching in India latley then?..

Mush tried to attack India based on fake missiles

People here call him intelligent

evidently intelligence is not one of your fortes by the looks of things.

 

[Jeetu111]

lol...is this what their teaching in India latley then?..




evidently intelligence is not one of your fortes by the looks of things.

buddy, live in denial at your own peril ...look around u & u will recognize how silly that is

 

[123]

support for Mush )

Where am i supporting him?

I am talking about the Kargil war, it was the right plan and strategy however with the wrong government.

In best care scenario it would have blown into a full scale war, that would have been a bigger disaster for people on either side. So what exactly was mushy trying to achieve ? He knew India would get the control back or will make it a full scale war so either way he wa not going to gain an inch.

 

[123]

we never achived our objectives, no one won because of the ceasefire HOWEVER we crushed your army and gained territory, we only lost out on diplomacy thanks to a buffoon prime minister,

So your objective was to take Indian lives ? Because that's all that happened and that's what Pakistanis achieved.

 

[Senman]

Exclusive interview: Musharraf hits back at Shahid Aziz
By Javed ChaudhryPublished: January 31, 2013

LAHORE:
Former president of Pakistan, General (retd) Pervez Musharraf has responded to allegations made recently by Lt. Gen. (retd) Shahid Aziz that as army chief he was guilty of putting a “tight lid” on the Kargil war.
“Telling everyone about it was not necessary at all,” said Musharraf in an interview with Express News show Kal Tak that was aired Wednesday night. He added that he felt Aziz had an imbalanced personality and has resorted to character assassination by making these accusations.
“We lost the Kargil war, which was a big success militarily, because of Nawaz Sharif,” said Musharraf. “If he had not visited the US, we would have conquered 300 square miles of India.”
The former president said that the Kargil operation was not a major operation but a localized one. “Kargil was just one of many sectors all under a major general stationed in Gilgit, in charge of the area. Exchange of fire was routine there,” he explained.
He said that he would not go so far as to accuse Nawaz Sharif of betrayal, but his decision to withdraw from Kargil was a mistake. “Nawaz lost a political front which we had won militarily,” he added.
During the Kargil conflict of 1999, Aziz ran the Inter-Services Intelligence analysis wing.
“The prime consideration of such actions is security and secrecy, so the army leadership decides who is to be informed and when. As the operation progressed and the proper time arrived, a briefing of the corps commanders was also held,” he added.
“I am really astonished that Lt Gen Shahid Aziz is writing about this 10 years later,” said Musharraf when asked to comment on the accusation that he did not inform other generals.
He said that blaming the nation at this juncture of time, as Lt Gen (retd) Shahid has done, seems to be part of a conspiracy.
“It was a tactical action that had a strategic importance in which no more than a few hundred persons were involved, but which engaged thousands on the Indian side and was of tremendous importance.”
Musharraf justified Pakistani casualties in the conflict, saying that Pakistan lost only 270 men against India’s 1,600 soldiers.
India has reacted badly to the comments, asking Pakistan whether it wants to maintain a friendship with India given Aziz’s revelations that army regulars took part in the 1999 conflict.
Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2013.

Source:Express Tribune

***************************************************************************

Getting funnier by the minute, I hope Indian politicians/Army personnel taking notes.

 

[Garuda]

^^ Never seen any leader on the world map who changes his statements so often than this Mushy guy.

Also one statement of his from one day contradicts with another on other day.

And some Pakistanis feel he is an intelligent leader.

 

[Indiafan]

lol...is this what their teaching in India latley then?..




evidently intelligence is not one of your fortes by the looks of things.

Yes, I still remember amazing insights like ISI being on the ground when Laden was killed and Indians being directly involved in the attack on SL players. So of course the intelligence shines through

 

[Jeetu111]

Yes, I still remember amazing insights like ISI being on the ground when Laden was killed and Indians being directly involved in the attack on SL players. So of course the intelligence shines through

he is troll bro .... needs to open his eyes & see what history & world says

 

[PetroDollars]

Exactly, thats what Mr.Musharraf was, always preempting and never listens to elected leaders + this, he is worth his weight in diamonds, thats how valuable he was for India.

So after leading an army that battered the living day lights out of your army you want to call him a valuable asset for India )

Please do so, you guys arnt that intelligent are you

 

[PetroDollars]

oh yes ....we all know the score as 4-0 . battering indeed

Continue to live in denial like the rest of your country,

 

[cricketjoshila]

So after leading an army that battered the living day lights out of your army you want to call him a valuable asset for India )

Please do so, you guys arnt that intelligent are you

LOL.We saw whose PM ran to Washington with his tail between his legs.

we saw which Army shamefully refused to take back and honour its dead.

India still has KAshmir,Leh everything.Pakistan gained one disputed peak point 5353 India gained two Point 4251 and 4275.

Also havent many Pakistani Generals/Your PM/Head of ISI of that time all accepted that Kargil was a blunder.And the words of all those>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You plus Mussharaf

Not to talk about the Phainta we gave you in past.

Yes Yes keep living in denials.LOL.The world saw what happened.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Continue to live in denial like the rest of your country,

which country lost half of its territory and population in 1971?Remind me please.Living in denial LOL.

 

[Garuda]

which country lost half of its territory and population in 1971?Remind me please.Living in denial LOL.

They were not Pakistanis to start with. They were bengalis. So Pakistanis didn't lose anything.

 

[shan]

They were not Pakistanis to start with. They were bengalis. So Pakistanis didn't lose anything.

Exactly, good to see level headed Indians. India tried to invade Pakistan in 65 and failed. Was watching Last Resort tv series where USA nukes Pakistan without any good reason. They also show how India try to take advantge of situation and invade birth place of Hinduism. But Indian imperalism is stoped by american submarine with nukes captain Chaplin.

 

[Blitzkrieg27]

fyi my pakistani friends on this thread, the worst and failed nations in the world are fed only one thing, Propaganda. Do you really want to believe crap being fed to you by your army?

Please do enlighten yourselves if you want to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybioqLp7EVo

Oh yeah I forgot that Najam Sethi is an Indian spy, henceforth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGVpiWH-QI

All said, Kargil was a massive failure on the part of RAW and IA. No matter what jingoistic crap we got fed by our media, the fact remains that the PA outsmarted IA covertly in the initial stages of the war but the folly was that this covertness came at a cost i.e. PA had to disown its own soldiers.

 

[90MPH]

They were not Pakistanis to start with. They were bengalis. So Pakistanis didn't lose anything.

Finally an Indian talking sense in this thread.

 

[Senman]

So after leading an army that battered the living day lights out of your army you want to call him a valuable asset for India )

Please do so, you guys arnt that intelligent are you

Who won, who got battered can be know by reading neutral accounts. Lets keep it all aside because I don't enjoy playing spoilsport, lets get back to the current debate.

The value of service that Mr.Musharraf done for India cannot be described in mere words, its too significant. He made Ind-Pak in to Af-Pak and in mere days turned all the sympathizers(for Pakistani cause) against them. We got supportive message from USA(at that time it was a strong Pak ally), heck even China asked Pakistan to move back, its a hugeeeeee diplomatic victory apart from military victory.

He gave the current perception of Pakistan to Pakista that too besides a coup & WOT. He took away many of our problems and turned it to your country. IMHO he deserves an award from India for being the 'dream come true' and we really really hope you guys continue to support Mr.Musharraf in the future too.

 

[PetroDollars]

LOL.We saw whose PM ran to Washington with his tail between his legs.

we saw which Army shamefully refused to take back and honour its dead.

India still has KAshmir,Leh everything.Pakistan gained one disputed peak point 5353 India gained two Point 4251 and 4275.

Also havent many Pakistani Generals/Your PM/Head of ISI of that time all accepted that Kargil was a blunder.And the words of all those>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You plus Mussharaf

Not to talk about the Phainta we gave you in past.

Yes Yes keep living in denials.LOL.The world saw what happened.

Yes that's why India was running all over the world asking america to save their arses when they got crushed.

...and dont make stuff up like you usually do. Pak still occupies 5 peaks from Kargil, India gained no territory, ZERO, NADA. Stop living in fantasy dreams.

As for the PM he was a buffoon who we admit, who now is enemies with Musharraf and makes political statements, the ISI chief wasn't even capable of being there and was just his croonie who is still today and was probably the shortest lived army leader ever, lasting only a few hours, he is hated in the army and has always been.

As for these other generals you talk about please list them, because there is more to it then just the headlines you read, which get twisted.

As for phaintys, other then kargil your army is still having nightmares of the phainties they got in 65 and 48, obviously you live in a country of denial but your army knows what happenened.

The truth is obviously to hard to accept you guys living in denial but here are the facts

Owen Bennet mentions the kargil war in his book:

.....indian sources claim that by the time sharif met president clinton, over 80% of the Pakistani intruders had been dislodged from their position. neutral observers have suggested that Pakistani troops had been dislodged from only 12 out of the 134 defended positions. Another estimate suggests that india had overrun only 4 of the 132 positions. whatever the precise figure the important point is that pakistan was still in control of a large area and would, in all likelihood, have been able to hang on it for the remaining weeks of the summer. They could have then dug in, maintained a light presence and waited to see whether there would be any diplomatic movement before fighting could resume next spring. the planned militant attacks on indian installations in the rest of kashmir would add to delhi's discomfort.

Victoria Schofield in her book "kashmir in conflict" mentions:

.....analysts believe, however, that the difficult conditions in which the indians were fighting and their own unpreparedness for a high altitude campagn, their victories were far less glorious than their spokesmen liked to portray.

Brian Cloughley, who was the the deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir

says in his book:

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.

In the same book, he continues:

It seems that we fell for the Indian propaganda as much as the Indians did.

Brig Surinder Singh of Indian Army claims:

Indian defense establishment had misled the country by claiming it had gained control on the peaks in Kargil.

The defense establishment had misled the nation about getting every intruder out of the Kargil sector. I can give proof of this to whatever committee the new government at the center sets up

[utube]3kQEV1AiTk4[/utube]

Another honest Indian, involved in the war
[utube]j_l73BVmlrs[/utube]


Neutral sources prove that Pak Army were giving a battering to India before the ceasefire. Even Indian generals in the war admit it and the Indian government gave false claims to the public.


We still hold on to some strategic points which we captured in the war

[utube]oWwBbBhHV0w[/utube]

Here is the reality, the truth hurts, now go cry.

 

[PetroDollars]

Who won, who got battered can be know by reading neutral accounts. Lets keep it all aside because I don't enjoy playing spoilsport, lets get back to the current debate.

The value of service that Mr.Musharraf done for India cannot be described in mere words, its too significant. He made Ind-Pak in to Af-Pak and in mere days turned all the sympathizers(for Pakistani cause) against them. We got supportive message from USA(at that time it was a strong Pak ally), heck even China asked Pakistan to move back, its a hugeeeeee diplomatic victory apart from military victory.

He gave the current perception of Pakistan to Pakista that too besides a coup & WOT. He took away many of our problems and turned it to your country. IMHO he deserves an award from India for being the 'dream come true' and we really really hope you guys continue to support Mr.Musharraf in the future too.

I dont understand why you keep trying to bring Musharrafs period as a presidant into Kargil, i guess thats all you have to defend yourself.

Well keep regarding the man who chopped and sliced your army as a HERO. Ye India should give him an award for battering the living day lights out of their own army )

 

[Itachi]

I dont understand why you keep trying to bring Musharrafs period as a presidant into Kargil, i guess thats all you have to defend yourself.

Well keep regarding the man who chopped and sliced your army as a HERO. Ye India should give him an award for battering the living day lights out of their own army )

you failed to grasp his point. In practice, sometimes winner becomes loser and vice versa.

In internation arena, kargil war accelerated the downfall of pakistan's impression. Till then, india was in isolated position due to aggressive stance in 1971 ignoring USA's orders.

But after kargil war, suddenly whole international community became symphatize for india. This lead to stronger diplomatic deals, pacts etc.

After this, pakistan, diplomatically speaking, lost influence gradually while india gained the upper hand to a point where, now, it considers china as more troublesome country than pakistan.

 

[Jeetu111]

which country lost half of its territory and population in 1971?Remind me please.Living in denial LOL.

hmm, did that really happen or is it just more Indian propaganda

 

[Itachi]

Yes that's why India was running all over the world asking america to save their arses when they got crushed.

...and dont make stuff up like you usually do. Pak still occupies 5 peaks from Kargil, India gained no territory, ZERO, NADA. Stop living in fantasy dreams.

As for the PM he was a buffoon who we admit, who now is enemies with Musharraf and makes political statements, the ISI chief wasn't even capable of being there and was just his croonie who is still today and was probably the shortest lived army leader ever, lasting only a few hours, he is hated in the army and has always been.

As for these other generals you talk about please list them, because there is more to it then just the headlines you read, which get twisted.

As for phaintys, other then kargil your army is still having nightmares of the phainties they got in 65 and 48, obviously you live in a country of denial but your army knows what happenened.

The truth is obviously to hard to accept you guys living in denial but here are the facts

Owen Bennet mentions the kargil war in his book:




Victoria Schofield in her book "kashmir in conflict" mentions:




Brian Cloughley, who was the the deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir

says in his book:



In the same book, he continues:




Brig Surinder Singh of Indian Army claims:






[utube]3kQEV1AiTk4[/utube]

Another honest Indian, involved in the war
[utube]j_l73BVmlrs[/utube]


Neutral sources prove that Pak Army were giving a battering to India before the ceasefire. Even Indian generals in the war admit it and the Indian government gave false claims to the public.


We still hold on to some strategic points which we captured in the war

[utube]oWwBbBhHV0w[/utube]

Here is the reality, the truth hurts, now go cry.

what happened in 1971? That was a great phainta. Wasn't it?

Pakistan got divided. India got relief from attack from the east.... Just think, strategically how india win it. Forget the war, look at the bigger picture. The phainta gets clearer. Isn't it?

 

[Senman]

*double post*

 

[Senman]

Source

Musharraf crossed LoC before Kargil war

ISLAMABAD:
Controversy surrounding the former president and Kargil refuses to die down, with fresh allegations by a former Pakistan Army official that weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in Kargil, then army chief General Pervez Musharraf spent a night on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC).
Col (retd) Ashfaq Hussain, who was serving in the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) at the time, said Musharraf flew across the de facto border on March 28, 1999 and spent a night at a location 11 kilometres inside Indian territory, The Times of India reported.
Hussain alleges that Musharraf, who was accompanied by Brigadier Masood Aslam, then commander of 80 Brigade, spent the night at a location called Zikria Mustaqar, where Pakistani troops commanded by Col Amjad Shabbir were present.
However, the spokesperson for Gen Musharraf strongly denied Hussain’s claim that the former military ruler had ever crossed the LoC. “Such claims are baseless and nonsense,” said Major General (retd) Rashid Qureshi.
General Qureshi, who is also member of Musharraf’s political party, said Col (retd) Hussain served under him at the ISPR.
“At the time of the Kargil operation, he was posted in Karachi, and his claims about General Musharraf crossing over the LoC were nothing but preposterous,” he added.
Col Hussain first made the revelation in his book ‘Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds’, which was published late in 2008.
He repeated the assertion earlier this week on a television show on the Kargil episode.
He went on to say that Pakistani troops first intruded into the Indian side of the LoC on December 18, 1998, when Captains Nadeem, Ali and Havaldar Lalik Jan were sent on a reconnaissance mission.
“They were never told about the aims and objectives of their mission,” maintained Hussain.
However, Musharraf’s spokesman denies this assertion, saying he could not have access to such classified information given the position he was serving in the Army. “It appears to be a publicity stunt,” Gen Qureshi insisted.
V K Singh praises Musharraf’s ‘courage’
On Friday, Musharraf also received praise for entering deep into Indian territory in Kargil in 1999 from former Indian Army chief General V K Singh, who said it showed the “courage” of a military commander.
Singh, who headed the Indian Army from 2010 to 2012, said there were “mistakes” on the Indian side that allowed Pakistani troops to cross over into Indian territory and let Musharraf return to Pakistan safely.

****************************************************************************

Even Indian ex-general is praising Mr. Musharraf

 

[shan]

Didnt know Pakistan still have 5 peaks from Kargil War. If i was India then i would make sure to get them back right now. I mean whats the use of 7 times more population if failed state like Pakistan can ocupy your mountains?

 

[shan]

what happened in 1971? That was a great phainta. Wasn't it?

Pakistan got divided. India got relief from attack from the east.... Just think, strategically how india win it. Forget the war, look at the bigger picture. The phainta gets clearer. Isn't it?

hahahaha

Relief from the attack from east? Good joke. Even you guys didnt consider Bangladesh real Pakistan back then. You could have easly invaded East Pakistan any time after 1947 but didnt bother. But instead try to invade Pakistan in 1965 and got phanty of their lifes, the scares still hunt you.

Even now after false flag Parliment attacks and Mumbai attacks all you guys can do is bark and send documents couple of weeks later. And as last resort dont play cricket with Pakistan.

 

[Jeetu111]

hahahaha

Relief from the attack from east? Good joke. Even you guys didnt consider Bangladesh real Pakistan back then. You could have easly invaded East Pakistan any time after 1947 but didnt bother. But instead try to invade Pakistan in 1965 and got phanty of their lifes, the scares still hunt you.

Even now after false flag Parliment attacks and Mumbai attacks all you guys can do is bark and send documents couple of weeks later. And as last resort dont play cricket with Pakistan.

no,you guys were not BROKEN into 2 in 1971 ....everything is big kahani & conspiracy

 

[Wazeeri]

no,you guys were not BROKEN into 2 in 1971 ....everything is big kahani & conspiracy

Yes that was really brave of you to attack when Pakistan was busy fighting itself.

India has always been opportunistic, had we fought the cowardly war like you, we would have taken Kashmir while China was giving you a good hiding.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes that was really brave of you to attack when Pakistan was busy fighting itself.

India has always been opportunistic, had we fought the cowardly war like you, we would have taken Kashmir while China was giving you a good hiding.

Lets not talk about the cowardly Kargil or The terrorism Pakistan supports.You guys cannot take an inch of Kashmir.Thats your wet dream.I laugh everytime i read this Kashmir leke rehenge attitude.

Btw while you are around read why china suddenly called a one sided ceasefire.and who started the war in 1971 by trying a pre emptive bombings.

 

[Senman]

Kargil redux

Former Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz’s upcoming book has already raked up the Kargil episode and the book is not even about Kargil! From what has so far appeared, there’s nothing he has said that is not already known.
Yet, there’s back and forth between Aziz and Musharraf. This is the problem with avoiding closures. It is somewhat ironic that any mention of Kargil, the operation Musharraf defends with such vehemence, upsets him greatly. It’s almost like he knows that operation is unlikely to place him in the hall of fame. Infamy is, of course, another matter.
Consider.
The first and the most important issue is whether the civilian government gave a nod to the operation. Musharraf says then-prime minister (PM) Nawaz Sharif was in the know of it. Perhaps, but the question is: when was the PM told about it; or, to what extent? It is one thing for a civilian government to order the army to start a conflict and quite another for a cabal of generals to initiate hostilities and then inform the PM and other services that the bow is bent and drawn.
Available evidence points to the fact that Sharif was given fait accompli and thus placed in a terribly unenviable position — especially if we note that Sharif was already committed to a process of rapprochement with New Delhi and had hosted the Indian PM, oblivious to what the generals had pulled.
Musharraf’s assertion becomes doubtful also because the operation was kept hush-hush to the point where even chiefs of air force and navy were not informed until the Northern Light Infantry — then a paramilitary force — troops and other support elements had occupied some 500 square miles of the area. In fact, the DGMO, Lt Gen Tauqir Zia (retd), was ordered, ex post facto, to come up with a rationale to justify the operation.
If there ever was a classic example of situating the appreciation rather than appreciating the situation, this was it.
If truth be told, they had no plan, neither strategic nor tactical. No thought was given to whether the environment at the regional and global levels was conducive for such an operation. There was no proper assessment of the Indian response and it was assumed, arbitrarily, that India would resign to the occupation instead of mounting a maximum effort to evict our troops. Or what options, if any, Pakistan could exercise in case the Indians decided, which sure as hell they would have and did, to sacrifice any number of men to regain lost positions. How would our troops survive beyond a certain point in the absence of a secure line of communication; what will happen when they run out of rations and ammunition and when casualties begin to mount and the men left to fend for themselves?
Did the plan cater to that? Were we prepared to open another front across the LoC to force the Indians to reorganise and thereby ensure that the mounting pressure on the men we had left trapped on those heights was released? And if that scenario was indeed war-gamed, did the game factor in the Indian response if we chose to expand the zone of conflict? From the conversation between Musharraf and then-CGS Aziz Khan, which was intercepted, it doesn’t seem to me that any of these scenarios were war-gamed. Oh, and that conversation not only gives the lie to Musharraf’s Sharif-knew-it position but also makes a mockery of his great insistence on secrecy, exchange notes as he did on a top secret operational matter on an open, unsecure line. And CGS Aziz’ boasts show how poorly they had assessed India’s response and their own perceived advantage.
Secrecy has levels and Musharraf was not mounting a Special Forces operation which required going in, executing a mission and getting out. Even such an operation would have required political consent.
At some point the Indians would have known about the occupation. If Musharraf and his lieutenants had worked out the scenarios, they would have known that they could not finger India without the other two services onboard and, in the worst-case scenario, preparing the nation for a possible broader conflict.
In his book, in the chapter on Kargil, Musharraf keeps talking about deploying troops to cover gaps along the LoC, why others outside the FCNA and 10 Corps were not informed, why India was in no position to opt for an all-out war and in the same breath talks about India’s use of air force, its disproportionate response and the war hysteria that had gripped India and which necessitated pulling in the CAS and the CNS. The chapter is remarkable for its disingenuousness and inconsistencies.
Brig Shaukat Qadir (retd) in his article for the RUSI (Royal United Services Institute) journal argues that the operation began with limited objectives but acquired a bigger momentum. That is possible, though I can’t see how it could have expanded so much on the spur of the moment. But if it indeed did, that still reflects poorly on the commanders who turned salami slicing into a huge embarrassment for the Indian Army which it just could not swallow.
At the politico-strategic level, Musharraf made no serious attempt to understand the impact of diplomacy being conducted between Islamabad and Delhi. Nor does it seem that he realised how effectively India would combine its local military response with its diplomatic offensive.
His assertion that Sharif lost the war on the political front which he (Musharraf) was winning on the ground is nothing if not dishonest, the bravery of the men on the ground notwithstanding. US General Anthony Zinni, a Musharraf friend, has a different account and informal talks with a number of officers over the years corroborate that account.
Some former officers on internet discussion forums fault Shahid Aziz for not taking to the grave service matters. That’s poppycock. Kargil requires closure not just because we need to honour those who fought like dickens and fell to a harebrained plan as much as enemy fire, but also because we need to identify the structural flaws in decision-making that now threaten to unravel us.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 6th, 2013.

Source: Express Tribune

Seems Mr. Musharraf is getting lot of attention these days for his role in (in)famous Kargil war.

 

[Wazeeri]

Lets not talk about the cowardly Kargil or The terrorism Pakistan supports.You guys cannot take an inch of Kashmir.Thats your wet dream.I laugh everytime i read this Kashmir leke rehenge attitude.

Btw while you are around read why china suddenly called a one sided ceasefire.and who started the war in 1971 by trying a pre emptive bombings.

Please see a few more post upwards and you'll see some mention of tiger hill. Hills and mountains are a bit more than an inch.

Also when your enemies take up the forward position at the border, that means that a war is on the cards and you need to get the first punch in. Please look up the definition of pre-emptive, genius.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Please see a few more post upwards and you'll see some mention of tiger hill. Hills and mountains are a bit more than an inch.

Also when your enemies take up the forward position at the border, that means that a war is on the cards and you need to get the first punch in. Please look up the definition of pre-emptive, genius.

If you are talking about point 5353,then let me clarify that point 5353 and 3 other points(4875,4251,5240) were disputed at best,according to other sources they were on Pakistani side of LOC.Indian Army during Kargil tried to take all those 4 points and successfully took the other three points,except point 5353.

Later the local commanders of PA and IA decided to leave all those 4 points un occupied.Then IA in october that year decided to re occupy its other 3 points and PA re occupied its 5353 point.

During the Kargil War,Grenadies despatch specifically mentions point 5353 as a minor objective.

Indian Army was in forward position in 2001 also.Why didnt you guys tried bombing then?

Here is what was happening inPakistan.CRUSH INDIA

http://www.docstrangelove.com/uploads/1971/po/19711130_po_crush_india.pdf

PAF tried to copy the Operation Focus of the Israelis by those pre emptive bombing on forward air bases and radars of the IAF.Failed miserably.

Now go read history as written by the neutrals.

 

[youboy]

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied

Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as "untenable" given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.

While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.

Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas. Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.

Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.

Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.

While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.

Supplies for Leh and the Siachen glacier follow two basic routes — through the Rohtang pass on the Manali-Leh highway or through the Zojila pass on the Srinagar-Leh highway 1 D. While the 13,000 feet Rohtang pass remains cut off longer in winters, the 11,500 feet Zojila pass generally opens earlier and is used to carry supplies for Army units.

What is worrisome is that even after a decade of the Kargil war, highway 1 D remains under the threat of being cut off by enemy fire.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/near-tiger-hill-point-5353-still-pakoccupied/488505/0

 

[Nitin Tomer]

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied

Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as "untenable" given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.

While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.

Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas. Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.

Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.

Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.

While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.

Supplies for Leh and the Siachen glacier follow two basic routes — through the Rohtang pass on the Manali-Leh highway or through the Zojila pass on the Srinagar-Leh highway 1 D. While the 13,000 feet Rohtang pass remains cut off longer in winters, the 11,500 feet Zojila pass generally opens earlier and is used to carry supplies for Army units.

What is worrisome is that even after a decade of the Kargil war, highway 1 D remains under the threat of being cut off by enemy fire.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/near-tiger-hill-point-5353-still-pakoccupied/488505/0

Yes, I can vouch for this. There comes a point on highway 1-D , just before Kargil town, where a signboad says - "saavdhan, dushman aapko dekh raha hai". Though the army had made a wall of huge stones there, I don't know how secure is that.

On the other hand, on my various excursions to that part of the world, I have been told that in worst case scenario, BRO can open the road from both sides in 3 days flat. From Manali side, there are actually only two passes, which are problematic - Rohtang and Baralacha La. Beyond that, there is not much snow-fall.

And even at Rohtang, the problem is more due to civilian traffic. Rohtang is the gateway for Spiti valley and to Leh; and a very popular tourist destination and traffic there is nightmarish. If, ever there is any need, civilian traffic can be stopped and supplies be sent to Leh/Siachen area.

Rohtang can also be bypassed, if one comes from Kinnaur side, via the Kunzom pass. Which leads one to Keylong.

Nitin

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Truth is we had India by the throat. NS sold out and collapsed to the international pressure. But this was a lesson to India hence they came to the negotiation table.

 

[Garuda]

Truth is we had India by the throat. NS sold out and collapsed to the international pressure. But this was a lesson to India hence they came to the negotiation table.

What did they negotiate ?

Anything Pakistan gained in that so called negotiation (if we agree that Pak compelled India to do) in last 12 years?

It's just Mush's words to cover his own failture.

 

[Nitin Tomer]

What did they negotiate ?

Anything Pakistan gained in that so called negotiation (if we agree that Pak compelled India to do) in last 12 years?

It's just Mush's words to cover his own failture.

Don't take him seriously. He has issues dealing with reality. Still living in the glory of 92

 

[cricketjoshila]

Truth is we had India by the throat. NS sold out and collapsed to the international pressure. But this was a lesson to India hence they came to the negotiation table.

Half of your generals and all of your civilian govts say something else.Guess your PM has more credibility.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Don't take him seriously. He has issues dealing with reality. Still living in the glory of 92

Troll on pleb

 

[GLORY OF '92]

What did they negotiate ?

Anything Pakistan gained in that so called negotiation (if we agree that Pak compelled India to do) in last 12 years?

It's just Mush's words to cover his own failture.

Nothing gained in negotiation. But now India knows that we are not just passive

 

[Garuda]

Nothing gained in negotiation. But now India knows that we are not just passive

And mush is happy with killing 500+ of his soldiers for nothing? Forget about Indian soldiers.

(even if I take mush's words it's 270 Pak soldier died for nothing). Ofcouse you should be proud of that.

 

[Nitin Tomer]

Troll on pleb

But humko kahein kaafir, allah ki marzi hai...

 

[Black Zero]

Mush presented this "mission" to Bay Nazir also, and she rejected strongly
Mush presented this to NS and assured that it will be a localized battle (Mush informed NS very very late stage of mission) (NS was so happy because of PM Vajpaeeie visit)

Once "mission" was open, India threatened an all out war (LOC + International border).
Pakistan Military informed NS and govt, that they never planned for that scale

and Mush begged to NS to fix that mess.

Pakistan lost so many brave because of Mush for no reason...

 

[MenInG]

Another anniversary of this event - What did both countries learn from this?

 

[Napa]

Another anniversary of this event - What did both countries learn from this?

Should have learned that soldiers lives are cheap and their orphans will grow up destitute unless those who benefit from conflict are curbed... but nothing was learned.

 

[PetroDollars]

Another anniversary of this event - What did both countries learn from this?

It wasnt the biggest war, but we learnt in pakistan civilian gov hold no power, when army and gov. are not on the same page the country pays the price but if they are on the same page, india is there for the taking.