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Remembering fall of Dhaka! Most tragic incident in history of Pakistan

I can see why the Quaid did it, as its difficult to build a nation without a common language. But the our Bengali brothers also need to realise that there would be no BD without Quaid.

the partition is the manifestation of many leaders who worked tirelessly for decades. yes, quaid e azam undeniably played an extremely influential role but he needed organizational and grass root support from the Muslim elites and leaders in the region. All-India Muslim played that part.

"The Muslim League played a decisive role in the 1940s, becoming a driving force behind the division of India along religious lines and the creation of Pakistan as a Muslim state in 1947."

The party was founded in Dhaka at the palace of then Dhaka Nawab family.

All_India_Muslim_league_conference_1906_attendees_in_Dhaka.jpg

The AIME Conference in 1906, held at the Ahsan Manzil palace of the Dhaka Nawab Family, laid the foundation of the Muslim League.
 
I can see why the Quaid did it, as its difficult to build a nation without a common language. But the our Bengali brothers also need to realise that there would be no BD without Quaid.

Based on what I have read, Bengali Muslims had a much bigger role in partition than their western brothers. The cadre of the League were more from Bengal than North India. The Great Calcutta Killings and Noakhali genocide were the acts that broke the final resistance from Congress' side. Based on wiki (not the most reliable) it seems that the Muslim League was founded by the Nawab of Dhaka in 1906. So while Mr Jinnah was a tall leader of the movement the contribution of Bengalis cannot be brushed aside.
 
Based on what I have read, Bengali Muslims had a much bigger role in partition than their western brothers. The cadre of the League were more from Bengal than North India. The Great Calcutta Killings and Noakhali genocide were the acts that broke the final resistance from Congress' side. Based on wiki (not the most reliable) it seems that the Muslim League was founded by the Nawab of Dhaka in 1906. So while Mr Jinnah was a tall leader of the movement the contribution of Bengalis cannot be brushed aside.
It seems like a lot of sacrifice was given by Bengalis and Urdu speaking migrants who left India for Pakistan, yet they didnt get the right treatment. Such a shame.
 
It seems like a lot of sacrifice was given by Bengalis and Urdu speaking migrants who left India for Pakistan, yet they didnt get the right treatment. Such a shame.

Here is a blunt assessment of what happened. The Pakistani Army quickly moved to exploit all citizens of its country, especially the East Pakistanis. After the Bangladeshis got tired of being economically exploited, and wanted to quit the country, the Army responded by killing them somewhere in the range of 200,000 to 3,000,0000. After all this killing failed and the Bangladeshis left anyway, the only people left to be exploited now are the citizens of remaining Pakistan.
 
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It seems like a lot of sacrifice was given by Bengalis and Urdu speaking migrants who left India for Pakistan, yet they didnt get the right treatment. Such a shame.

The refusal to honour the results of 1970 Pakistani elections must be one of the worst blunders in the history of politics. How and why were Awami League denied the chance to form government after such a landslide victory? I often hear Pakistani experts call 1971 a RAW conspiracy and labeling of Awami League/Sheikh Mujibur Rahman as traitors, Bengali Muslims as kafir/Hindu agents etc but how can anyone justify what happened in the aftermath of those elections?

And Awami League too was a Muslim dominated party, founded by erstwhile leading Muslim League figures who made big contributions in the creation of Pakistan. I mean it is ridiculous really, Pakistan's refusal to issue a formal apology for the genocide is morally unacceptable.
 
Based on what I have read, Bengali Muslims had a much bigger role in partition than their western brothers. The cadre of the League were more from Bengal than North India. The Great Calcutta Killings and Noakhali genocide were the acts that broke the final resistance from Congress' side. Based on wiki (not the most reliable) it seems that the Muslim League was founded by the Nawab of Dhaka in 1906. So while Mr Jinnah was a tall leader of the movement the contribution of Bengalis cannot be brushed aside.

Nobody is, but without the Quaid and Allama Iqbal there would be no PK or BD
 
Here is a blunt assessment of what happened. The Pakistani Army quickly moved to exploit all citizens of its country, especially the East Pakistanis. After the Bangladeshis got tired of being economically exploited, and wanted to quit the country, the Army responded by killing them somewhere in the range of 200,000 to 3,000,0000. After all this killing failed and the Bangladeshis left anyway, the only people left to be exploited now are the citizens of remaining Pakistan.
Look I don’t know how bad the army did in the past, there are always two sides of the story. When we discuss history sometimes things are exaggerated. But one thing I can assure you about the current Army of Pakistan, they have become a true institution and have massively learnt from their past mistakes. Several army generals have been tried under military courts for corruption, these things do not get advertised in the news but there has been a big operation in the country in every institution of Pakistan. We love our army and stand by it and trust it.
 
Look I don’t know how bad the army did in the past, there are always two sides of the story. When we discuss history sometimes things are exaggerated. But one thing I can assure you about the current Army of Pakistan, they have become a true institution and have massively learnt from their past mistakes. Several army generals have been tried under military courts for corruption, these things do not get advertised in the news but there has been a big operation in the country in every institution of Pakistan. We love our army and stand by it and trust it.

1) Read the following Washington Post article and tell me where it is wrong?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/26/AR2007062601826.html?noredirect=on

"Active-duty or retired officers now occupy most key government jobs, including posts in education, agriculture and medicine that have little to do with defense. The military also dominates the corporate world; it reportedly runs a $20 billion portfolio of businesses from banks to real estate developers to bakeries."

"History in Pakistan is on the generals' side. They have ruled the country for more than half of the 60 years since independence. Even when civilians have ostensibly been in charge, they have had to bow to the military just to keep their jobs. Of the nation's past three civilian leaders, two are in exile and one was hanged."

"Yet the military's imprint is everywhere. It's by the side of the road, where men in orange jumpsuits labor for a military-run foundation that controls a huge share of the nation's construction industry. It's also present up and down the ranks of the civilian bureaucracy, where government workers answer to retired military men and complain that loyalty is consistently rewarded over hard work or competence. And it's in Riaz's health clinic, where his doctors say they take heat from army inspectors if they spend more than 10 minutes with a patient."

"For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

"For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

"In Rawalpindi, the teeming garrison town just down the road from Islamabad, retired and active-duty officers live in sparkling new gated communities that feature luxury homes, tree-lined streets and grassy parks. Mohammed Shafiq, a 36-year-old clerk, can see one such development from the weedy field in front of his old, squat brick home. "Before, people had good opinions of the army," he said. "Now they are afraid. If soldiers come, we think they are coming to take our land." Land is one of the military's most prized assets, distributed as a perk to top officers, with major generals getting at least 50 acres apiece."

2. The Pakistani military is powerful within Pakistan because it is seen as defending Pakistan against India. This requires that India be seen as a threat. Constantly poking India and getting Indian retaliation helps making India seem as a threat.

From the same article: "One reason for the changed attitude is geopolitical. Pakistan's military has traditionally acted as a bulwark against a hostile neighbor to the east, India. But relations between the two nuclear powers have been warming, and the threat has become less imminent."

While the negative impact of the Pakistani Army is most on Pakistani civilians, the low level war also results in Indian lives lost.

3. In history, military domination of a country has ALWAYS resulted in a bad economy. Don't expect to be any different.

4. Getting Pakistan to advance economically is in the interests of the Pakistani civilians, especially the poor. If you think that you can continue having military domination along with economic growth you are mistaken. Think about this calmly.
 
1) Read the following Washington Post article and tell me where it is wrong?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/26/AR2007062601826.html?noredirect=on

"Active-duty or retired officers now occupy most key government jobs, including posts in education, agriculture and medicine that have little to do with defense. The military also dominates the corporate world; it reportedly runs a $20 billion portfolio of businesses from banks to real estate developers to bakeries."

"History in Pakistan is on the generals' side. They have ruled the country for more than half of the 60 years since independence. Even when civilians have ostensibly been in charge, they have had to bow to the military just to keep their jobs. Of the nation's past three civilian leaders, two are in exile and one was hanged."

"Yet the military's imprint is everywhere. It's by the side of the road, where men in orange jumpsuits labor for a military-run foundation that controls a huge share of the nation's construction industry. It's also present up and down the ranks of the civilian bureaucracy, where government workers answer to retired military men and complain that loyalty is consistently rewarded over hard work or competence. And it's in Riaz's health clinic, where his doctors say they take heat from army inspectors if they spend more than 10 minutes with a patient."

"For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

"For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

"In Rawalpindi, the teeming garrison town just down the road from Islamabad, retired and active-duty officers live in sparkling new gated communities that feature luxury homes, tree-lined streets and grassy parks. Mohammed Shafiq, a 36-year-old clerk, can see one such development from the weedy field in front of his old, squat brick home. "Before, people had good opinions of the army," he said. "Now they are afraid. If soldiers come, we think they are coming to take our land." Land is one of the military's most prized assets, distributed as a perk to top officers, with major generals getting at least 50 acres apiece."

2. The Pakistani military is powerful within Pakistan because it is seen as defending Pakistan against India. This requires that India be seen as a threat. Constantly poking India and getting Indian retaliation helps making India seem as a threat.

From the same article: "One reason for the changed attitude is geopolitical. Pakistan's military has traditionally acted as a bulwark against a hostile neighbor to the east, India. But relations between the two nuclear powers have been warming, and the threat has become less imminent."

While the negative impact of the Pakistani Army is most on Pakistani civilians, the low level war also results in Indian lives lost.

3. In history, military domination of a country has ALWAYS resulted in a bad economy. Don't expect to be any different.

4. Getting Pakistan to advance economically is in the interests of the Pakistani civilians, especially the poor. If you think that you can continue having military domination along with economic growth you are mistaken. Think about this calmly.
I agree that military does play a key role in the affairs of Pakistan. This is also because the politicians do not what they are supposed to do. There is a void, and this void needs to be filled. So easy to blame the army but the people of Pakistan are to be blamed for their poor choices.
I strongly feel that parliamentary democratic system does not suit Pakistan. We can see what beautiful role Zardari and Shareef played in increasing the debt, which resulted in bad economy. Army didnt tell political government to spend money on bad projects. Army didnt tell to do corruption. If there is one institution that majority of Pakistanis trust it is the Army. I know the foreign news agencies are on an agenda, but they will fail as they always do.
 
I agree that military does play a key role in the affairs of Pakistan. This is also because the politicians do not what they are supposed to do. There is a void, and this void needs to be filled. So easy to blame the army but the people of Pakistan are to be blamed for their poor choices.
I strongly feel that parliamentary democratic system does not suit Pakistan. We can see what beautiful role Zardari and Shareef played in increasing the debt, which resulted in bad economy. Army didnt tell political government to spend money on bad projects. Army didnt tell to do corruption. If there is one institution that majority of Pakistanis trust it is the Army. I know the foreign news agencies are on an agenda, but they will fail as they always do.

I don't think the Washington Post article should be dismissed as "foreign news agencies are on an agenda", the facts mentioned are true.

If you really believe that there is no alternative to the Army when it comes to running the country, then I have to tell you that the future is really going to be no better than the past given that the Army has always been the most powerful entity.

Also, as history across the world shows, an active involvement of the Army in the economy has uniformly been a disaster across countries and over the centuries. Add to that the Army's pursuit of a low-level war with India, and the resulting terrorism in both countries is economically disastrous for Pakistan but not so for India as it is able to confine the terrorism mostly to Kashmir.

NS could have led Pakistan to prosperity, even if he deposited a hundred million dollars into foreign accounts. However he was always hamstrung by the Army (which would not let him make peace with India and thereby improve the security situation) and ISI's nurturing of jihadists (which precluded foreign investment in Pakistan).

You can't blame the people for not being able to produce good politicians when the politicians have to constantly look over their shoulders. "Of the nation's past three civilian leaders, two are in exile and one was hanged." You can't have a successful democracy when it is only occasionally that people are allowed to choose their leaders. The political leaders will inevitably spend more time worrying about what the Army will do than how to develop the country.
 
I don't think the Washington Post article should be dismissed as "foreign news agencies are on an agenda", the facts mentioned are true.

If you really believe that there is no alternative to the Army when it comes to running the country, then I have to tell you that the future is really going to be no better than the past given that the Army has always been the most powerful entity.

Also, as history across the world shows, an active involvement of the Army in the economy has uniformly been a disaster across countries and over the centuries. Add to that the Army's pursuit of a low-level war with India, and the resulting terrorism in both countries is economically disastrous for Pakistan but not so for India as it is able to confine the terrorism mostly to Kashmir.

NS could have led Pakistan to prosperity, even if he deposited a hundred million dollars into foreign accounts. However he was always hamstrung by the Army (which would not let him make peace with India and thereby improve the security situation) and ISI's nurturing of jihadists (which precluded foreign investment in Pakistan).

You can't blame the people for not being able to produce good politicians when the politicians have to constantly look over their shoulders. "Of the nation's past three civilian leaders, two are in exile and one was hanged." You can't have a successful democracy when it is only occasionally that people are allowed to choose their leaders. The political leaders will inevitably spend more time worrying about what the Army will do than how to develop the country.

I read an article on a website called Stratfor a couple of years ago about this issue. This is how it began ---
The saying goes that most countries have an army, but Pakistan's army has a country. Even when it is not formally in power — as it has been off and on for nearly half of Pakistan's 69-year history — the Pakistani military wields tremendous influence as a kingmaker
 
Debt when Mush left $37bn(61years), debt after 10 years of "Democracy" stood at $90bn+. Remind us again who has the best interests at heart

It takes years to bring about a change, especially wrt impact go government policies. Democracy needs to given a long run, 30+ years to create a positive impact, but it eventually does. There will be always be small hiccups, like Trump, Brexit, Modi etc, but in the long run, things always improve.

Even wrt to economic policies, it takes anywhere near 5-15 years to have an impact. So, many a times the good steps taken by a government will not bear fruits until after the next elections.

Also, if the military has been in charge for a significant period, the institutions will have been hampered, and for them to get to proper functioning it does require time.
 
Worth reading the OP in full again. If you ignore the headline, some thoughts have turned out to be remarkably accurate.
 
It takes years to bring about a change, especially wrt impact go government policies. Democracy needs to given a long run, 30+ years to create a positive impact, but it eventually does. There will be always be small hiccups, like Trump, Brexit, Modi etc, but in the long run, things always improve.

Even wrt to economic policies, it takes anywhere near 5-15 years to have an impact. So, many a times the good steps taken by a government will not bear fruits until after the next elections.

Also, if the military has been in charge for a significant period, the institutions will have been hampered, and for them to get to proper functioning it does require time.

What has democracy got to do with borrowing billions to buy property abroad with stolen cash? Isnt democracy supposed to be protecting peoples wealth not stealing it?
 
Here is a blunt assessment of what happened. The Pakistani Army quickly moved to exploit all citizens of its country, especially the East Pakistanis. After the Bangladeshis got tired of being economically exploited, and wanted to quit the country, the Army responded by killing them somewhere in the range of 200,000 to 3,000,0000. After all this killing failed and the Bangladeshis left anyway, the only people left to be exploited now are the citizens of remaining Pakistan.

Here is a blunt assessment of what happened. The Pakistani Army quickly moved to exploit all citizens of its country, especially the East Pakistanis. After the Bangladeshis got tired of being economically exploited, and wanted to quit the country, the Army responded by killing them somewhere in the range of 200,000 to 3,000,0000. After all this killing failed and the Bangladeshis left anyway, the only people left to be exploited now are the citizens of remaining Pakistan.

agree with you.

Bengali's didn't secede because they didn't get along well with West Pakistani citizen and civilians. In fact they got along very well. There was lot of communication between the common folks of both regions. Even today there are no animosity between the regular people.

The animosity and hatred is almost entirely for the army who committed unspeakable brutality and the punjabi elites who refused to share power. It's funny and sad how they labeled Bengalis as kafirs/hindu agents while they routinely killed many imams and religious scholars who resisted the army. They also raped thousands of bengali woman.

There was mass rape during the Bangladesh Liberation war with an estimated 200,000-400,000 women were raped by Pakistan Army and their collaborators. On 22 December 1971 the Government of Bangladesh declared women who had been raped Birangona or war-heroine. President Sheikh Mujibur Rahman asked Bangladesh to "give due honor and dignity to the women oppressed by the Pakistani army" and called them his daughters

If you want to read more about them --

https://www.thedailystar.net/in-focus/the-war-not-over-yet-1380949

http://en.sachalayatan.com/guest_writer/48077
 
another interesting read --

An account of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman’s time spent in prison

Three years ago, a retired Pakistani police officer named Raja Anar Khan appeared on Pakistani television to reflect on the duties he performed as an intelligence officer between April 1971 and early January 1972.

Those duties related to guarding and keeping watch on Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, once the chief of the Awami League had been flown to erstwhile West Pakistan and lodged in solitary confinement in Mianwali.

In Sahiwal jail, Bangabandhu began keeping a diary into which he made daily entries.

Late in the evening of December 16, 1971, hours after the Pakistan army surrendered in Bangladesh, a senior prison official named Khwaja Tufail knocked loudly on the gate of the corridor leading to Bangabandhu’s cell in Mianwali prison.

Khan, whose quarters were near the gate, initially refused to open it out of fear that doing so would lead to his prisoner coming to harm in light of the news from Dhaka. But Tufail persisted.

When Khan let him in, both men unlocked the door to Bangabandhu’s cell and asked him to follow them out of the place. One recalls that a sentence of death had already been pronounced against Bangabandhu.

Being woken up in the middle of the night somehow convinced him that he was being led to his execution. Indeed, he asked Khan and Tufail calmly if he was being led to the gallows.

On January 5, 1972, as Bangabandhu prepared to fly to freedom, Raja Anar Khan, who addressed Bangabandhu as Baba, asked him for a parting gift. By then, Bangabandhu had been given newspapers and a radio.

He had a copy of Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment. He autographed it for Khan: “In the long war between the falsehood and the truth, falsehood wins the first battle and truth the last.”

Two days later, the Father of the Nation flew to freedom.

In February 1974, in Lahore for the Islamic summit, Bangabandhu enquired after Raja Anar Khan and asked Pakistani officials to have him brought over. Conveyed Bangabandhu’s wish, Khan decided not to see him.

He was afraid such a reunion would lead to his persecution by his own government in future.

https://www.dhakatribune.com/opinio...ani-jailer-remembers-incarcerated-bangabandhu
 
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What has democracy got to do with borrowing billions to buy property abroad with stolen cash? Isnt democracy supposed to be protecting peoples wealth not stealing it?

You have decided upon "Sharif stole money which caused Pakistan's debt", and then you work your facts around to justify this conclusion.

Even if you take an extreme view of Sharif's "stealing", it still doesn't amount to $100 million, which is a trifling amount compared to at least a trillion dollars more Pakistan should have produced over the last 20 years (at $50 billion more a year).

Pakistan's problem is not that the PM steals some money. Pakistan's problem is that 1) the Army dominates vast swatches of the economy, thereby reducing its productivity 2) the bad security situation due to the nurturing of jihadis inside the country which stops foreign investment from coming in 3) the lack of development of modern industries due to the lack of foreign investment and the Army's involvement in the economy, resulting in Pakistan's persistent large balance of merchandise trade deficits.

Pakistan's external debt today is very high not because some PM stole some money, it is very high because Pakistan has not developed modern industries. Anything the PM may have stolen, is a small fraction the trillion dollars the country has lost due to the lack of development of modern industries.

If Pakistanis can understand the real reasons for the lack of development of modern industries, they will be very successful.
[MENTION=143303]Bosanquet[/MENTION] [MENTION=134408]Sidilicious[/MENTION]
 
The refusal to honour the results of 1970 Pakistani elections must be one of the worst blunders in the history of politics. How and why were Awami League denied the chance to form government after such a landslide victory? I often hear Pakistani experts call 1971 a RAW conspiracy and labeling of Awami League/Sheikh Mujibur Rahman as traitors, Bengali Muslims as kafir/Hindu agents etc but how can anyone justify what happened in the aftermath of those elections?

And Awami League too was a Muslim dominated party, founded by erstwhile leading Muslim League figures who made big contributions in the creation of Pakistan. I mean it is ridiculous really, Pakistan's refusal to issue a formal apology for the genocide is morally unacceptable.

In the words of Brigadier A.R. Siddiqi, the head of the ISPR:

"The right of a provincial party (Awami League) to frame the Constitution and run the national government for the next five years was not acceptable to the military high command."

The tragedy is that independence was not inevitable had the West Pakistani establishment distinguished between legitimate calls for regional autonomy and secession. Even as late as March 1971, Mujib was proposing a Confederation of Pakistan, allowing PPP to govern West Pakistan. By then Yahya had decided to roll in the tanks.
 
You have decided upon "Sharif stole money which caused Pakistan's debt", and then you work your facts around to justify this conclusion.

Even if you take an extreme view of Sharif's "stealing", it still doesn't amount to $100 million, which is a trifling amount compared to at least a trillion dollars more Pakistan should have produced over the last 20 years (at $50 billion more a year).

Pakistan's problem is not that the PM steals some money. Pakistan's problem is that 1) the Army dominates vast swatches of the economy, thereby reducing its productivity 2) the bad security situation due to the nurturing of jihadis inside the country which stops foreign investment from coming in 3) the lack of development of modern industries due to the lack of foreign investment and the Army's involvement in the economy, resulting in Pakistan's persistent large balance of merchandise trade deficits.

Pakistan's external debt today is very high not because some PM stole some money, it is very high because Pakistan has not developed modern industries. Anything the PM may have stolen, is a small fraction the trillion dollars the country has lost due to the lack of development of modern industries.

If Pakistanis can understand the real reasons for the lack of development of modern industries, they will be very successful.
[MENTION=143303]Bosanquet[/MENTION] [MENTION=134408]Sidilicious[/MENTION]

I am sure Sharif (like a lot of other sub-continental politicians) stole very large sums of money. However that fades into insignificance compared to what the country spends on the up keep of it's outsized armed forces. Currently 21% of total government expenditure goes to the military. In India it's around 12%. Even 12% is far too much, as for 21%...!!
Unfortunately, this huge military has not brought security to the country, just the opposite if anything.
I don't think it's my job pontificating to Pakistanis (or Indians), while safely sitting in UK. I am sure that the intelligent in both countries realise how much progress they both could make if they were at peace & spent only 1/4 or 1/3rd of what they do on arms.
 
You have decided upon "Sharif stole money which caused Pakistan's debt", and then you work your facts around to justify this conclusion.

Even if you take an extreme view of Sharif's "stealing", it still doesn't amount to $100 million, which is a trifling amount compared to at least a trillion dollars more Pakistan should have produced over the last 20 years (at $50 billion more a year).

Pakistan's problem is not that the PM steals some money. Pakistan's problem is that 1) the Army dominates vast swatches of the economy, thereby reducing its productivity 2) the bad security situation due to the nurturing of jihadis inside the country which stops foreign investment from coming in 3) the lack of development of modern industries due to the lack of foreign investment and the Army's involvement in the economy, resulting in Pakistan's persistent large balance of merchandise trade deficits.

Pakistan's external debt today is very high not because some PM stole some money, it is very high because Pakistan has not developed modern industries. Anything the PM may have stolen, is a small fraction the trillion dollars the country has lost due to the lack of development of modern industries.

If Pakistanis can understand the real reasons for the lack of development of modern industries, they will be very successful.
[MENTION=143303]Bosanquet[/MENTION] [MENTION=134408]Sidilicious[/MENTION]

Sharifs and AZ stole billions and let others steal billions. It was a free for all at the expense of a poor country. Democracy is not a licence to loot the taxpayer. The debt increased to alarming levels, and what did we get in that period bar the corruption? These crooks cant point to a single institution they built or strengthened. This is not democracy, its a lootocracy. No Thanks
 
Debt when Mush left $37bn(61years), debt after 10 years of "Democracy" stood at $90bn+. Remind us again who has the best interests at heart

Oh yes, the great commando really cared about the country. The NRO is just another proof of his shining legacy.
 
Oh yes, the great commando really cared about the country. The NRO is just another proof of his shining legacy.

I agree that Mush was greedy and let everyone down but please explain what happened to the $60bn these democrats borrowed?
 
I hope India doesn't do the Urdu mistake of Pakistan by making Hindi compulsory,one can't trust BJP jus to win UP seats they can stoop low.

People can talk about why location of Bangladesh and all, but they did try their utter best to suppress the largest population of their country , wonder if it's a classic example of Punjabi domination that @_enkidu keeps talking about but on Indian side , the actual example was more on the Pakistani side.

Spot on. This is the biggest lesson for us. There were people in our Constituent Assembly who thought you could not possibly be Indian if you didn't speak Hindi lol. There is wisdom in learning from the failures of others.
 
I agree that Mush was greedy and let everyone down but please explain what happened to the $60bn these democrats borrowed?

Our economy and industries have not been allowed to develop due to military interference.
 
I agree. But this is a complex issue now. The military has now become extremely powerful and influential. In fact even all these proceedings against the Sharifs involves a big hand of the military. The fact is that a democratic, economically stable and peaceful Pakistan Is not ideal for the military. The current situation is ideal for them to prove their power and existence.
 
I agree that Mush was greedy and let everyone down but please explain what happened to the $60bn these democrats borrowed?

Our economy and industries have not been allowed to develop due to military interference.

The main reason why Pakistan's debt keeps growing is not because the politicians may have stolen some money. Even if you take the extreme case and say the Sharifs have ten properties abroad worth $10 million each, you are only up to $0.1 billion.

The reason why Pakistan's debt keeps growing is that some external countries or agencies are willing to keep lending it money, even though it does not produce enough exports to justify all the stuff that it imports. Some of the imports are essentials like oil, but the elite also import luxury cars and other luxury consumption items. If external countries or agencies refused to allow Pakistan to buy the goods it imports on credit then obviously its external debt would not have grown.

Given the economy he was handed, NS thought he could jumpstart it by building a lot of infrastructure. Hence the $60 billion CEPC borrowing to build infrastructure. That thinking is not completely wrong, Pakistan does have the human capital and it needs infrastructure for the economy to grow.

However, security, the removal of Army influence from the economy and the elimination of the jihadists is also needed for modern industries to grow. Army officers are good in some respects. They are punctual and obey orders they are given. They however are not capable of the innovative thinking required for economic success. This is not unique to Pakistan, but you can see this in all countries that have had the Army run the economy.

The reason Pakistan now has a huge external debt is modern industries that produce goods the rest of the world wants to buy haven't developed. These industries will only develop once there is foreign investment, and that needs the Army out of the economy and the jihadis in jail.

IK with his constant sniping at India does not inspire any confidence that he is the man to lead his country out of the woods.
 
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The main reason why Pakistan's debt keeps growing is not because the politicians may have stolen some money. Even if you take the extreme case and say the Sharifs have ten properties abroad worth $10 million each, you are only up to $0.1 billion.

The reason why Pakistan's debt keeps growing is that some external countries or agencies are willing to keep lending it money, even though it does not produce enough exports to justify all the stuff that it imports. Some of the imports are essentials like oil, but the elite also import luxury cars and other luxury consumption items. If external countries or agencies refused to allow Pakistan to buy the goods it imports on credit then obviously its external debt would not have grown.

Given the economy he was handed, NS thought he could jumpstart it by building a lot of infrastructure. Hence the $60 billion CEPC borrowing to build infrastructure. That thinking is not completely wrong, Pakistan does have the human capital and it needs infrastructure for the economy to grow.

However, security, the removal of Army influence from the economy and the elimination of the jihadists is also needed for modern industries to grow. Army officers are good in some respects. They are punctual and obey orders they are given. They however are not capable of the innovative thinking required for economic success. This is not unique to Pakistan, but you can see this in all countries that have had the Army run the economy.

The reason Pakistan now has a huge external debt is modern industries that produce goods the rest of the world wants to buy haven't developed. These industries will only develop once there is foreign investment, and that needs the Army out of the economy and the jihadis in jail.

IK with his constant sniping at India does not inspire any confidence that he is the man to lead his country out of the woods.

Sharif, Zardari and co 'borrowed' the money to develop industries? What naïveté :)))
 
Sharif, Zardari and co 'borrowed' the money to develop industries? What naïveté :)))

1) I did not say anything about Zardari, who not only stole but didn't make the right economic decisions for growth either. NS on the other hand did want to make the right decisions (for example, peace with India which would improve the security situation and attract foreign investment) but was hampered by the Army.

2) It is your country. If you can't figure out what is holding your country back, then your economy will continue being terrible like it is now. It is apparent that many Pakistanis do not understand what is holding their country back economically, which explains the current situation. You can keep believing things which are not true, like India and the US are holding Pakistan back, but those beliefs will only mean that the existing situation will continue.
 
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Another anniversary of this very sad chapter.
 
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