The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[BunnyRabbit]

It would be nice if it gets the PPV billing globally, but I suspect it wont be, it will be similar to the show they done at the MCG in Australia, whenever they do stadium shows they always air it live on the network, they will be cheeky here and sell it on UK PPV as well though given their deal with BT.

I enjoy them Saudi shows lmao some matches be good but it’s also predominately the luxury of being able to watch live wrestling during normal hours lol I can’t stay up anymore bro, only for specific Boxing fights and even they I try to avoid spoilers sometimes and buy the replay in the morning.

Yeah think that was the SSE arena in Wembley, TNA has a big fanbase here and have received decent coverage over the years on FTA, there use to a channel called ‘The Wrestling Channel’ it use to show every alternative to WWE and wrestling from all around the world and the indie circuit in America, this was when I first came across Punk, Joe, Daniels, Mcguiness, Amazing Red, Bryan, Shark Boy (LOL), Jushin Thunger Liger in his prime and my all time fav japanese guy to watch Kenta Kobashi, when he wrestled Joe it was such a massive dream match in those days. I also remember when Punk vs Eddie Gurrero first happened they showed that on the channel to it was mad

I hope it gets telecasted cause you can't just deprive the viewers to see a show with 50k+ thunderous crowd. I hope they make some good arrangements with Peacock. The recent MSG show was so weird, firstly it wasn't shown on tv and then the post match beatdown of Brock was made to be the biggest angle for Wrestlemania.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Kross suffered the wrath of Vince cause he was supposedly the top chamption of Nxt during the time Dynamite overtook NXT in ratings. Kross was extremely limited in ring (never liked him as a character or wrestler) but a lot of people have said he's a genuinely nice guy who's always doing what he's told and was never difficult to work with and was also a locker room leader(which was one reason Trips hired him in the first place cause let's face it, he was never built for NXT).

Keith Lee just turned out to be too smart for his ownself. He had problems with WWE changing his music to his ring attire to many things. And one thing that WWE takes a lot into account is how their wrestlers adapt to the creative, Lee never did it well. He could only play a calm yet forceful monster face.

Ah yes. The old he was champion when we weren't drawing any viewers or money argument that Vince loves. I've heard people attribute this line of thinking to Vince numerous times but in a sense it is a self-serving prophecy. Because if Vince really believed this, rather than believing it selectively he would have fired Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels decades ago. Because Nash was the worst drawing champion in WWE history uptill that point and was champion during a time when interest in WWE's product was at an all-time low. Shawn himself was not much better as champion. But ofcourse Vince liked those guys so this theory didn't apply to them.

I see. Yeah that checks out. They don't have a lot of patience for guys having much creative control over who they are.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

AEW pulled a full-on WWE and debuted an Indian giant on Dynamite this week.

Yes, another Indian giant.

I am fairly certain that he too will not be able to work in the ring if his life depended on it. And ofcourse it is yet another case of trying to enter the Indian market. Which is what The Great Khali and Jinder's pushes were as well.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them having a good wrestler from India on the roster. But compromising your product just so you can enter a market is such a WWE thing to do. On top of that, when was the last time we saw a giant who was even barely mobile in the ring? If you take out Big Show I reckon you would have to go all the way back to Andre. And my biggest problem with this is that AEW, that prides itself as an alternative to WWE should know better. Because this is downright hypocritical.

What's funnier is that they turned the lights off to build anticipation for his debut and when the lights came back on, literally nobody knew who he even was. And then ofcourse he used The Great Khali's head-squeezing submission move that takes literally zero work to do. Just incase you were questioning his ability to work...

I love AEW because the company has been on a roll in the past year and has converted me from a detractor to a fan. But personally, I fail to understand how any self-respecting wrestling fan can defend this blatant attempt to copy WWE and compromise the quality of your product just to make some extra money.

 

[Suleiman]

I’ve kinda sorta been keeping up with WWE for the last 6-7 years, heard about the new Ezekiel thing- i saw Elias few years ago and he looked like he would go very far. Had the charisma, look, mic skills. Surprised they turned him into what looks like comic relief this week. Did he really not fulfill his potential or did WWE creative turn another possible winner into a jobber?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Ah yes. The old he was champion when we weren't drawing any viewers or money argument that Vince loves. I've heard people attribute this line of thinking to Vince numerous times but in a sense it is a self-serving prophecy. Because if Vince really believed this, rather than believing it selectively he would have fired Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels decades ago. Because Nash was the worst drawing champion in WWE history uptill that point and was champion during a time when interest in WWE's product was at an all-time low. Shawn himself was not much better as champion. But ofcourse Vince liked those guys so this theory didn't apply to them.

I see. Yeah that checks out. They don't have a lot of patience for guys having much creative control over who they are.

Shawn and Nash were highly influential backstage as members of the kliq. Vince took so much **** from hbk that is probably only matched by hogan. During that steroid trial, Vince was as scared as he had probably ever been and didn't have any alternatives. Bret never drew either. It was such a blessing for him that Austin came along by chance with a gimmick that changed the landscape of wrestling. Plus there's a ton of difference between Vince of early 90s and Vince of today. That Vince was probably much more flexible, today's Vince is like a Wilson Fisk.

Plus Nick Khan has also changed WWE recently by providing them with record profits, so he's making a lot of calls regarding which wrestlers to keep and which ones to fire.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

AEW pulled a full-on WWE and debuted an Indian giant on Dynamite this week.

Yes, another Indian giant.

I am fairly certain that he too will not be able to work in the ring if his life depended on it. And ofcourse it is yet another case of trying to enter the Indian market. Which is what The Great Khali and Jinder's pushes were as well.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them having a good wrestler from India on the roster. But compromising your product just so you can enter a market is such a WWE thing to do. On top of that, when was the last time we saw a giant who was even barely mobile in the ring? If you take out Big Show I reckon you would have to go all the way back to Andre. And my biggest problem with this is that AEW, that prides itself as an alternative to WWE should know better. Because this is downright hypocritical.

What's funnier is that they turned the lights off to build anticipation for his debut and when the lights came back on, literally nobody knew who he even was. And then ofcourse he used The Great Khali's head-squeezing submission move that takes literally zero work to do. Just incase you were questioning his ability to work...

I love AEW because the company has been on a roll in the past year and has converted me from a detractor to a fan. But personally, I fail to understand how any self-respecting wrestling fan can defend this blatant attempt to copy WWE and compromise the quality of your product just to make some extra money.

Heard AEW's locker room hated that debut. It had something to do with Indian market I heard. They have a deal with some channel that provides AEW in India or something.
Maybe Tony's finding out that cheap tactics like this actually draws the numbers from casual fans.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I’ve kinda sorta been keeping up with WWE for the last 6-7 years, heard about the new Ezekiel thing- i saw Elias few years ago and he looked like he would go very far. Had the charisma, look, mic skills. Surprised they turned him into what looks like comic relief this week. Did he really not fulfill his potential or did WWE creative turn another possible winner into a jobber?

Well Elias had a Baron Corbin problem. His gimmick could only engage the audience to a point and it wasn't high enough to lift him to top card. Plus his in ring skills are average at best. So he wasn't going to go anywhere with his drifter gimmick. There was just so much you could do with it unless you're a generational talent. I am actually curious as to where Ezekiel would lead to. Cause it has the potential to be quite hilarious especially as a face. Although I think he would soon be running around chasing 24/7 but having him feud with KO means they are going to push him.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

CM Punk right now is doing the best work of his career. This is the run he will be remembered for.

Alot of people questioned if he would be able to go at his age and with so much time outside of the business, but honestly, I think this is the best he has ever been. He has evolved so much when it comes to in-ring psychology and just working in the ring from his previous WWE run. Since coming to AEW he has slowly but surely built up his cardio (which they made into story-line aswell) and now he is hitting his stride and having dream matches every single week. Next week he is wrestling Dustin which I am sure is going to be excellent.

But more importantly, the time seems right to put the belt on him. Which means he shouldn't just get the match at the next PPV but win it too. Page as champion has been thoroughly boring and I don't think anyone besides the hardcore AEW fan-base cares about him anymore. Punk on the other hand, is red-hot right now. No one in the company is as over as him, or as big of a draw as him. Putting him in the main-event of the next PPV would pump up those PPV buys and putting the belt on him would bring new interest into the product.

It would also make sense for Tony because when Tony started the company he wanted Jericho, Moxley, Punk, Page and Omega (in no particular older) to be his first five champions.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Surely, Punk has to win at the next PPV right?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Shawn and Nash were highly influential backstage as members of the kliq. Vince took so much **** from hbk that is probably only matched by hogan. During that steroid trial, Vince was as scared as he had probably ever been and didn't have any alternatives. Bret never drew either. It was such a blessing for him that Austin came along by chance with a gimmick that changed the landscape of wrestling. Plus there's a ton of difference between Vince of early 90s and Vince of today. That Vince was probably much more flexible, today's Vince is like a Wilson Fisk.

Plus Nick Khan has also changed WWE recently by providing them with record profits, so he's making a lot of calls regarding which wrestlers to keep and which ones to fire.

Bret was never a Hulk Hogan level draw but I would say he drew well for his time. Bret also had other stuff going for him, he was by far their biggest and most recognized star internationally prior to the Attitude Era and was probably the biggest merchandise mover. He was also a reliable champion (unlike Shawn) who barely ever got hurt and on top of that he was also (in my opinion atleast) the very best in the ring. And that's something I still believe. I have seen alot of wrestling but I have never seen a better pro-wrestler than Bret Hart.

I think that's harsh. If anything, it was that feud with Bret (particularly the match at WM 13) that took Austin to the next level. WWE likes to rewrite history and pretend like the KOTR win was what made Austin into Austin. But that isn't true. Bret may not have been on Hogan or Austin's level as a draw but there's a reason he is called the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be and that's because he is.

Well drawing power has kinda become irrelevant in today's WWE. Now that everything is on the network. I don't think they even call PPVs PPVs anymore.

 

[shaz619]

CM Punk right now is doing the best work of his career. This is the run he will be remembered for.

Alot of people questioned if he would be able to go at his age and with so much time outside of the business, but honestly, I think this is the best he has ever been. He has evolved so much when it comes to in-ring psychology and just working in the ring from his previous WWE run. Since coming to AEW he has slowly but surely built up his cardio (which they made into story-line aswell) and now he is hitting his stride and having dream matches every single week. Next week he is wrestling Dustin which I am sure is going to be excellent.

But more importantly, the time seems right to put the belt on him. Which means he shouldn't just get the match at the next PPV but win it too. Page as champion has been thoroughly boring and I don't think anyone besides the hardcore AEW fan-base cares about him anymore. Punk on the other hand, is red-hot right now. No one in the company is as over as him, or as big of a draw as him. Putting him in the main-event of the next PPV would pump up those PPV buys and putting the belt on him would bring new interest into the product.

It would also make sense for Tony because when Tony started the company he wanted Jericho, Moxley, Punk, Page and Omega (in no particular older) to be his first five champions.

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Surely, Punk has to win at the next PPV right?

In the ring I’d need to watch him a bit more to say if this is his best run because in the E he achieved unprecedented success against a variety of opposition from the bottom to the top / evolved as a performer, I’d say his form is very close to his best but definitely on the psychology front arguably this is his best showing considering the disadvantage of such a long lay off and how that has been covered up, on the promo side there is no doubt that this is his best work ever in my opinion. But ignoring all that, I legit think that right now Punk has a strong case to be regarded as the best all round performer on the planet, he just needs others to rise to his level!

This is a slight issue in a way because given the nature of Page’s run you can make a case for and against Punk going over. For, you mentioned some of those reasons - it’s logical to strap a rocket behind Punk’s back and gain the max monetary benefit from it by positioning him as the top guy; as a Punk mark, do I really want to see him beat a Champion who I feel is now regarded as being a chump? not really, I actually wouldn’t have minded if it were Omega even though am not his fan but he’s a bigger name then Page and somehow even though his heel run was horrible, AEW managed to outdo themselves with the horrible booking of Page.

But when you have that problem with your champion and you have the likes of MJF, Bryan and Punk on your roster the decision is straight forward, in north america eve with a product appealed to smarks you need to be able to talk, that’s the fundamental quality you require and I know it’s not easy for a face champion in such a fickle environment but that’s how it is, it wouldn’t shock me if Punk turned. It will be interesting to see what they do, while it would be logical to put the belt on Punk I wont be annoyed if they don’t purely because it means less to beat Page; but maybe Punk can help sell that match hard

 

[shaz619]

It’s a massive myth that the likes of Shawn and Bret couldn’t draw, along with Taker these guys kept the ship afloat during some serious difficulties, the company was in a transition post the steroid trial and the E had to adapt, in any such phase for a business there are going to be some severe lows but both guys were over enough to follow up on the golden era which I don’t imagine was an easy task, if anything the two deserve immense credit for helping the company survive. Shawn gets stick for the backstage stuff and half the time he was out of it in the head but always delivered in the ring, he will never get any sympathy and that’s understandable but Bret himself has admitted to being bitter about the fact that the company were moving away from him and focussing more on the younger star in Shawn who was on the up / increasingly getting super over, it never helped the situation when for better or worse that Bret was such a big mark of himself. Anyway, without Bret or Shawn there would be no Austin and the two can also be seen as pioneers of the AE era, directly or indirectly lol

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It’s a massive myth that the likes of Shawn and Bret couldn’t draw, along with Taker these guys kept the ship afloat during some serious difficulties, the company was in a transition post the steroid trial and the E had to adapt, in any such phase for a business there are going to be some severe lows but both guys were over enough to follow up on the golden era which I don’t imagine was an easy task, if anything the two deserve immense credit for helping the company survive. Shawn gets stick for the backstage stuff and half the time he was out of it in the head but always delivered in the ring, he will never get any sympathy and that’s understandable but Bret himself has admitted to being bitter about the fact that the company were moving away from him and focussing more on the younger star in Shawn who was on the up / increasingly getting super over, it never helped the situation when for better or worse that Bret was such a big mark of himself. Anyway, without Bret or Shawn there would be no Austin and the two can also be seen as pioneers of the AE era, directly or indirectly lol

Bret is clearly bitter but to be honest, I understand and completely sympathize with all his frustration and anger. I do hope he learns to let it go one day because that kind of a thing can eat a man up inside. But that said, you gotta understand that being a pro-wrestler was all Bret ever dreamed about. He wasn't in it for the money like Hall or Nash or to be big and famous like Hogan. And he didn't just succeed in making that dream come true but he also became someone who was the very best at what he did. First, he got screwed by a man who was he considered a father figure. Then he experienced an idiot like Eric Bischoff ruin his career for two years in real time, and if that wasn't enough, he then had his career ended by a guy who clearly was never properly trained to ever be in the ring in the first place. You could say that Bret was a big mark for himself. But I just see him as someone who took everything he did very seriously. He considered himself to be the best and quite honestly, he was.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In the ring I’d need to watch him a bit more to say if this is his best run because in the E he achieved unprecedented success against a variety of opposition from the bottom to the top / evolved as a performer, I’d say his form is very close to his best but definitely on the psychology front arguably this is his best showing considering the disadvantage of such a long lay off and how that has been covered up, on the promo side there is no doubt that this is his best work ever in my opinion. But ignoring all that, I legit think that right now Punk has a strong case to be regarded as the best all round performer on the planet, he just needs others to rise to his level!

This is a slight issue in a way because given the nature of Page’s run you can make a case for and against Punk going over. For, you mentioned some of those reasons - it’s logical to strap a rocket behind Punk’s back and gain the max monetary benefit from it by positioning him as the top guy; as a Punk mark, do I really want to see him beat a Champion who I feel is now regarded as being a chump? not really, I actually wouldn’t have minded if it were Omega even though am not his fan but he’s a bigger name then Page and somehow even though his heel run was horrible, AEW managed to outdo themselves with the horrible booking of Page.

But when you have that problem with your champion and you have the likes of MJF, Bryan and Punk on your roster the decision is straight forward, in north america eve with a product appealed to smarks you need to be able to talk, that’s the fundamental quality you require and I know it’s not easy for a face champion in such a fickle environment but that’s how it is, it wouldn’t shock me if Punk turned. It will be interesting to see what they do, while it would be logical to put the belt on Punk I wont be annoyed if they don’t purely because it means less to beat Page; but maybe Punk can help sell that match hard

Earlier in his run I wasn't convinced about him in the ring. But they used his real-life ring rust and played it into the story-line where he was having difficulty putting guys away. But now, he has well and truly hit his stride. The matches were MJF were ofcourse in a league of their own, but as of late he has been on a roll on Dynamite aswell. He had an amazing match with Dax Harwood couple of weeks back. There was an outstanding tag team match where he and Mox faced FTR weeks back aswell. He even got a good match out of Penta.

I loved Punk in WWE...especially after the pipebomb promo but I never considered him to be an outstanding worker on the level of someone like Bryan. And though he had a memorable run as World Champion he somehow always felt like an afterthough even during that mammoth 434 day reign as it was usually Cena who was main-eventing PPVs. On top of that he had to deal with stuff like HHH burying him and working boring feuds with Ryback. This current CM Punk is not only the biggest star in the company, but like you said, also the best all-round performer on the planet. And I genuinely feel he has evolved as a worker too. He is much more methodical than he was before and far more precise with what he does. And everything he does in the ring means something. He's not as quick as he was before but he uses that to his favor because he just lets stuff breathe and settle in more.

I get what you mean about Page. I echo your concerns. But that said, as underwhelming as he has been as a personality, he has been booked like a champion. I don't care much for him but even I can't deny that he had two classics with Bryan Danielson...one of which he won clean in the middle of the ring. And that makes him somewhat of a credible champion in the ring. So I don't think beating him will hurt Punk in the slightest...if anything it will merely show the fans who is the better man.

And once Punk becomes champion, I imagine he would have a credible run of atleast 270+ days. And that's when you can book all the dream matches, beginning with the one against Omega. Heck, I can easily see Punk vs Omega for World title at All Out later this year. I'd be excited to see that match.

But yeah, the next three AEW World Champions should definitely be Punk, MJF and Bryan. There is no one on the roster that is on these guys' level, and who hasn't been World Champion before.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Earlier in his run I wasn't convinced about him in the ring. But they used his real-life ring rust and played it into the story-line where he was having difficulty putting guys away. But now, he has well and truly hit his stride. The matches were MJF were ofcourse in a league of their own, but as of late he has been on a roll on Dynamite aswell. He had an amazing match with Dax Harwood couple of weeks back. There was an outstanding tag team match where he and Mox faced FTR weeks back aswell. He even got a good match out of Penta.

I loved Punk in WWE...especially after the pipebomb promo but I never considered him to be an outstanding worker on the level of someone like Bryan. And though he had a memorable run as World Champion he somehow always felt like an afterthough even during that mammoth 434 day reign as it was usually Cena who was main-eventing PPVs. On top of that he had to deal with stuff like HHH burying him and working boring feuds with Ryback. This current CM Punk is not only the biggest star in the company, but like you said, also the best all-round performer on the planet. And I genuinely feel he has evolved as a worker too. He is much more methodical than he was before and far more precise with what he does. And everything he does in the ring means something. He's not as quick as he was before but he uses that to his favor because he just lets stuff breathe and settle in more.

I get what you mean about Page. I echo your concerns. But that said, as underwhelming as he has been as a personality, he has been booked like a champion. I don't care much for him but even I can't deny that he had two classics with Bryan Danielson...one of which he won clean in the middle of the ring. And that makes him somewhat of a credible champion in the ring. So I don't think beating him will hurt Punk in the slightest...if anything it will merely show the fans who is the better man.

And once Punk becomes champion, I imagine he would have a credible run of atleast 270+ days. And that's when you can book all the dream matches, beginning with the one against Omega. Heck, I can easily see Punk vs Omega for World title at All Out later this year. I'd be excited to see that match.

But yeah, the next three AEW World Champions should definitely be Punk, MJF and Bryan. There is no one on the roster that is on these guys' level, and who hasn't been World Champion before.

I actually think there's a good difference between the in ring level of CM Punk of today and 2008-13. He was much quicker and brash during that time (even before the pipebomb) that appealed to the young viewers a lot. He has naturally gone a bit slower now. It's just that he's working non methodical matches as to what WWE provides day in day out and gets to wrestle arguably better talent in big feuds now.

It would be great to see him turn heel in a few months I think. And I would like to hear how he does his heel stuff now cause let's face it, his face run continues to write itself due to his real life events. As a heel, he would really need to do something adventurous to turn the audience against him which would get exciting.

Plus one thing I'd like to say is, don't you guys feel there's something wrong with AEW's ring ropes or turnbuckles. Maybe something to do with the tension of the ropes or the dimensions of the ring or something, people seem to be taking too many botches on the turnbuckles and while springboarding. That failed frankensteiner attempt from Punk on Penta could have been career ending had it gone a bit more wayward. Even Jeff managed to botch his Swanton there something he probably hasn't done wrong in maybe a decade.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Bret was never a Hulk Hogan level draw but I would say he drew well for his time. Bret also had other stuff going for him, he was by far their biggest and most recognized star internationally prior to the Attitude Era and was probably the biggest merchandise mover. He was also a reliable champion (unlike Shawn) who barely ever got hurt and on top of that he was also (in my opinion atleast) the very best in the ring. And that's something I still believe. I have seen alot of wrestling but I have never seen a better pro-wrestler than Bret Hart.

I think that's harsh. If anything, it was that feud with Bret (particularly the match at WM 13) that took Austin to the next level. WWE likes to rewrite history and pretend like the KOTR win was what made Austin into Austin. But that isn't true. Bret may not have been on Hogan or Austin's level as a draw but there's a reason he is called the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be and that's because he is.

Well drawing power has kinda become irrelevant in today's WWE. Now that everything is on the network. I don't think they even call PPVs PPVs anymore.

The steroid scandal had hit the wrestling world real low. It was a general consensus back then that wrestlers were steroid junkies. The fan following had taken a big fall back then. It was just a poor time period for NA wrestling overall. I think WWE had established a measuring yardstick for a draw by then which was Hogan. Anything less than that was considered a failure. I think they only really believed that Warrior was the one who could match Hogan's appeal despite being one of the worst wrestlers back then.

I do agree that Bret and Shawn drew and did much better than Diesel or Sid but on the other hand WCW was doing better than them, so they were considered something of a failure.

I do agree with the fact that Bret is probably the best in ring wrestler of all time. Bret was screwed mutliple times even before the screwjob. He had to lose to Yokozuna and hogan immediately would defeat Yoko in a minute the same night. Stuff like that was always hurting other wrestler's appeal.

These days yes I agree WWE becoming a global empire don't really need a big draw for the PPVs as a whole but they do need a draw for the house shows (when they fully resume). I heard during Seth's reign in 2019, the house shows ticket sales were very down.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Bret is clearly bitter but to be honest, I understand and completely sympathize with all his frustration and anger. I do hope he learns to let it go one day because that kind of a thing can eat a man up inside. But that said, you gotta understand that being a pro-wrestler was all Bret ever dreamed about. He wasn't in it for the money like Hall or Nash or to be big and famous like Hogan. And he didn't just succeed in making that dream come true but he also became someone who was the very best at what he did. First, he got screwed by a man who was he considered a father figure. Then he experienced an idiot like Eric Bischoff ruin his career for two years in real time, and if that wasn't enough, he then had his career ended by a guy who clearly was never properly trained to ever be in the ring in the first place. You could say that Bret was a big mark for himself. But I just see him as someone who took everything he did very seriously. He considered himself to be the best and quite honestly, he was.

Think a lot of that has to do with the brain damage as well that he suffered due to the stroke by that goldberg's kick and multiple concussions. The part of his brain that got damaged due to the stroke is permanently damaged so there's definitely personality changes. But he was definitely treated poorly in both WWF and WCW.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think a lot of that has to do with the brain damage as well that he suffered due to the stroke by that goldberg's kick and multiple concussions. The part of his brain that got damaged due to the stroke is permanently damaged so there's definitely personality changes. But he was definitely treated poorly in both WWF and WCW.

Completely forgot to mention the stroke. I think it was as a result of a motorcycle accident. But yeah, that really took a toll on him too. From what I've read he was left completely paralyzed down his left side. And it took him months of physiotherapy just for him to move again. And I'm sure he battled major depression as a result of all this aswell.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I actually think there's a good difference between the in ring level of CM Punk of today and 2008-13. He was much quicker and brash during that time (even before the pipebomb) that appealed to the young viewers a lot. He has naturally gone a bit slower now. It's just that he's working non methodical matches as to what WWE provides day in day out and gets to wrestle arguably better talent in big feuds now.

It would be great to see him turn heel in a few months I think. And I would like to hear how he does his heel stuff now cause let's face it, his face run continues to write itself due to his real life events. As a heel, he would really need to do something adventurous to turn the audience against him which would get exciting.

Plus one thing I'd like to say is, don't you guys feel there's something wrong with AEW's ring ropes or turnbuckles. Maybe something to do with the tension of the ropes or the dimensions of the ring or something, people seem to be taking too many botches on the turnbuckles and while springboarding. That failed frankensteiner attempt from Punk on Penta could have been career ending had it gone a bit more wayward. Even Jeff managed to botch his Swanton there something he probably hasn't done wrong in maybe a decade.

Yeah agree big time. In WWE whenever I'm watching certain guys wrestle I somehow always get the feeling that the company has put training wheels on them. Just look at Bryan, he did so much submission stuff in ROH. But in WWE you never saw that stuff. Stuff like the Cattle Mutilation or any of the other 50 submission moves that he has used to win matches on Dynamite. The same goes for Punk who is doing Frankensteiners, Bret Hart tributes and even bringing out some of his old ROH stuff like the Pepsi Twist.

Oh without a doubt. But I'd say get the most out of him as a top-drawing babyface first. Get all those big dream matches in. With the World title around his waist those dream matches would mean more too. Once that whole deal has run its course, the logical step is to turn him heel. Because as good as he is, as a babyface he simply thrives as a heel. The mark in me even wants to see him feud with Jeff Hardy one more time, just because I loved that feud.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about rings to say something on this. But to the blind eye, that seemed like Punk's fault. He wasn't properly balanced and he slipped. He was smart enough to start selling it as an injury throughout the match but honestly hitting the Frankensteiner off the ropes was a risky proposition to begin with. Punk was trying to show off some lucha stuff. But honestly, I don't think he should have been doing that because it could have easily turned into something far more dangerous.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I actually think there's a good difference between the in ring level of CM Punk of today and 2008-13. He was much quicker and brash during that time (even before the pipebomb) that appealed to the young viewers a lot. He has naturally gone a bit slower now. It's just that he's working non methodical matches as to what WWE provides day in day out and gets to wrestle arguably better talent in big feuds now.

It would be great to see him turn heel in a few months I think. And I would like to hear how he does his heel stuff now cause let's face it, his face run continues to write itself due to his real life events. As a heel, he would really need to do something adventurous to turn the audience against him which would get exciting.

Plus one thing I'd like to say is, don't you guys feel there's something wrong with AEW's ring ropes or turnbuckles. Maybe something to do with the tension of the ropes or the dimensions of the ring or something, people seem to be taking too many botches on the turnbuckles and while springboarding. That failed frankensteiner attempt from Punk on Penta could have been career ending had it gone a bit more wayward. Even Jeff managed to botch his Swanton there something he probably hasn't done wrong in maybe a decade.

Yeah agree big time. In WWE whenever I'm watching certain guys wrestle I somehow always get the feeling that the company has put training wheels on them. Just look at Bryan, he did so much submission stuff in ROH. But in WWE you never saw that stuff. Stuff like the Cattle Mutilation or any of the other 50 submission moves that he has used to win matches on Dynamite. The same goes for Punk who is doing Frankensteiners, Bret Hart tributes and even bringing out some of his old ROH stuff like the Pepsi Twist.

Oh without a doubt. But I'd say get the most out of him as a top-drawing babyface first. Get all those big dream matches in. With the World title around his waist those dream matches would mean more too. Once that whole deal has run its course, the logical step is to turn him heel. Because as good as he is, as a babyface he simply thrives as a heel. The mark in me even wants to see him feud with Jeff Hardy one more time, just because I loved that feud.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about rings to say something on this. But to the naked eye, that seemed like Punk's fault. He wasn't properly balanced and he slipped. He was smart enough to start selling it as an injury throughout the match but honestly hitting the Frankensteiner off the ropes was a risky proposition to begin with. Punk was trying to show off some lucha stuff. But honestly, I don't think he should have been doing that because it could have easily turned into something far more dangerous.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah agree big time. In WWE whenever I'm watching certain guys wrestle I somehow always get the feeling that the company has put training wheels on them. Just look at Bryan, he did so much submission stuff in ROH. But in WWE you never saw that stuff. Stuff like the Cattle Mutilation or any of the other 50 submission moves that he has used to win matches on Dynamite. The same goes for Punk who is doing Frankensteiners, Bret Hart tributes and even bringing out some of his old ROH stuff like the Pepsi Twist.

Oh without a doubt. But I'd say get the most out of him as a top-drawing babyface first. Get all those big dream matches in. With the World title around his waist those dream matches would mean more too. Once that whole deal has run its course, the logical step is to turn him heel. Because as good as he is, as a babyface he simply thrives as a heel. The mark in me even wants to see him feud with Jeff Hardy one more time, just because I loved that feud.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about rings to say something on this. But to the naked eye, that seemed like Punk's fault. He wasn't properly balanced and he slipped. He was smart enough to start selling it as an injury throughout the match but honestly hitting the Frankensteiner off the ropes was a risky proposition to begin with. Punk was trying to show off some lucha stuff. But honestly, I don't think he should have been doing that because it could have easily turned into something far more dangerous.

Bryan usually always do the opposite, he turns heel pretty quickly and gets the audience to start hating booing him. Then he slowly turns face again. Saw that during his comeback in 2018, turned heel within 6 months of returning against AJ. Here in AEW, turned face within a few months whilst feuding with Page. Although his heel turn here couldn't put Page over as a champion here sadly IMO. Page just doesn't carry himself like a champ.

 

[shaz619]

Bret is clearly bitter but to be honest, I understand and completely sympathize with all his frustration and anger. I do hope he learns to let it go one day because that kind of a thing can eat a man up inside. But that said, you gotta understand that being a pro-wrestler was all Bret ever dreamed about. He wasn't in it for the money like Hall or Nash or to be big and famous like Hogan. And he didn't just succeed in making that dream come true but he also became someone who was the very best at what he did. First, he got screwed by a man who was he considered a father figure. Then he experienced an idiot like Eric Bischoff ruin his career for two years in real time, and if that wasn't enough, he then had his career ended by a guy who clearly was never properly trained to ever be in the ring in the first place. You could say that Bret was a big mark for himself. But I just see him as someone who took everything he did very seriously. He considered himself to be the best and quite honestly, he was.

Goldberg is probably the biggest culprit in that regard but all involved in his training at the power-plant are accountable. He lost millions and we were also deprived of some peak dream matches, Bret v Angle, Bret v 2000’s Shawn and many more. I meant he was bitter with regards to the company getting behind a younger champion and he wasn’t entirely on board with that which was his own admission, with Montreal, WCW and Goldberg his bitterness is somewhat justified and I do feel sorry for what he has become but I would definitely prefer more Bret Hart’s right now then a big chunk of the AEW roster for example who don’t take themselves as seriously at all while Bret was a true professional in that regard

 

[shaz619]

Earlier in his run I wasn't convinced about him in the ring. But they used his real-life ring rust and played it into the story-line where he was having difficulty putting guys away. But now, he has well and truly hit his stride. The matches were MJF were ofcourse in a league of their own, but as of late he has been on a roll on Dynamite aswell. He had an amazing match with Dax Harwood couple of weeks back. There was an outstanding tag team match where he and Mox faced FTR weeks back aswell. He even got a good match out of Penta.

I loved Punk in WWE...especially after the pipebomb promo but I never considered him to be an outstanding worker on the level of someone like Bryan. And though he had a memorable run as World Champion he somehow always felt like an afterthough even during that mammoth 434 day reign as it was usually Cena who was main-eventing PPVs. On top of that he had to deal with stuff like HHH burying him and working boring feuds with Ryback. This current CM Punk is not only the biggest star in the company, but like you said, also the best all-round performer on the planet. And I genuinely feel he has evolved as a worker too. He is much more methodical than he was before and far more precise with what he does. And everything he does in the ring means something. He's not as quick as he was before but he uses that to his favor because he just lets stuff breathe and settle in more.

I get what you mean about Page. I echo your concerns. But that said, as underwhelming as he has been as a personality, he has been booked like a champion. I don't care much for him but even I can't deny that he had two classics with Bryan Danielson...one of which he won clean in the middle of the ring. And that makes him somewhat of a credible champion in the ring. So I don't think beating him will hurt Punk in the slightest...if anything it will merely show the fans who is the better man.

And once Punk becomes champion, I imagine he would have a credible run of atleast 270+ days. And that's when you can book all the dream matches, beginning with the one against Omega. Heck, I can easily see Punk vs Omega for World title at All Out later this year. I'd be excited to see that match.

But yeah, the next three AEW World Champions should definitely be Punk, MJF and Bryan. There is no one on the roster that is on these guys' level, and who hasn't been World Champion before.

Booking aside, watching his evolution very closely from the indies to the WWE and how he made vast improvements technically and psychologically, I just rate that transformation highly; in Punk’s own words, on the indie circuit he thought he was a god until Eddie jumped in the ring with him. Under the E’s set up he really thrived as an elite performer and while there are many aspects right now of his work which are amazing, I think his ring work in the E is too under rated and overshadowed by the politics.

As for right now tbh whatever they do with Punk, you know he will do his best to make good of it and there is loads to be excited about!

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Goldberg is probably the biggest culprit in that regard but all involved in his training at the power-plant are accountable. He lost millions and we were also deprived of some peak dream matches, Bret v Angle, Bret v 2000’s Shawn and many more. I meant he was bitter with regards to the company getting behind a younger champion and he wasn’t entirely on board with that which was his own admission, with Montreal, WCW and Goldberg his bitterness is somewhat justified and I do feel sorry for what he has become but I would definitely prefer more Bret Hart’s right now then a big chunk of the AEW roster for example who don’t take themselves as seriously at all while Bret was a true professional in that regard

Yeah totally agree. And I would say he was one of the torch-bearers in taking the business seriously. When he was on-top WWF was essentially a cartoon show. And yet he still had great matches and serious feuds with guys like Henning, Davey Boy, Owen, Austin. The feud with Michaels was great too until it seeped into real life.

There has been alot of talk of him potentially managing FTR in AEW. Eventhough the chances of that happening are unlikely (in my estimation) it would really be something if it did happen. Because if Bret is in that locker-room he likely won't hold back on making his opinion known to some of the spot monkeys and geeks in that AEW locker-room.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Booking aside, watching his evolution very closely from the indies to the WWE and how he made vast improvements technically and psychologically, I just rate that transformation highly; in Punk’s own words, on the indie circuit he thought he was a god until Eddie jumped in the ring with him. Under the E’s set up he really thrived as an elite performer and while there are many aspects right now of his work which are amazing, I think his ring work in the E is too under rated and overshadowed by the politics.

As for right now tbh whatever they do with Punk, you know he will do his best to make good of it and there is loads to be excited about!

The best thing about Punk in AEW right now is that he is probably the one deciding what he wants to do. He doesn't have Vince telling him to wrestle a Fatal 4 Way match for a chance to face The Undertaker at WrestleMania, or HHH telling him he has a feud with Kevin freakin' Nash...right after winning the World title.

I don't want to underrate his WWE run. The matches he had with Jeff, Cena, Bryan, Jericho, Rock, Brock, Taker were simply outstanding. And story-wise most of these feuds were really well-executed too. But for me there was nothing in that run on the level of the feud he had with MJF (maybe the John Cena and Jeff Hardy feuds comes close). There was certainly nothing like that Dog Collar match.

But considering he has been there less than a year, I guess its best to let him do more before comparing the two runs. One thing is for sure though, creatively, the glass ceiling for Punk is far higher in AEW than it ever was in WWE. And that's great to see as a CM Punk fan.

 

[shaz619]

The best thing about Punk in AEW right now is that he is probably the one deciding what he wants to do. He doesn't have Vince telling him to wrestle a Fatal 4 Way match for a chance to face The Undertaker at WrestleMania, or HHH telling him he has a feud with Kevin freakin' Nash...right after winning the World title.

I don't want to underrate his WWE run. The matches he had with Jeff, Cena, Bryan, Jericho, Rock, Brock, Taker were simply outstanding. And story-wise most of these feuds were really well-executed too. But for me there was nothing in that run on the level of the feud he had with MJF (maybe the John Cena and Jeff Hardy feuds comes close). There was certainly nothing like that Dog Collar match.

But considering he has been there less than a year, I guess its best to let him do more before comparing the two runs. One thing is for sure though, creatively, the glass ceiling for Punk is far higher in AEW than it ever was in WWE. And that's great to see as a CM Punk fan.

Punk had Vince’s favour for the most part who was in tears when Punk walked out, the biggest thorn in his backside was Hunter, his ego has no limits; Punk if I understand correctly was a grand slam champion there and also can’t overlook his work as part of the straight edge society. He had creatives backing and he commanded respect through his hard work but Hunter is the one who always attempted to sabotage it all because Punk didn’t fall at his feet and worship him as if he were Harley Race.

Yeah, possibly that dog collar match was arguably his best gimmick match on PPV, if I were to pick a stand out one from WWE I might go with the no holds barred match with Lesnar.

In AEW there wont be anyone standing in his way and it’s a set up where an ATG level performer can take full advantage of and bring all his experiences together

 

[shaz619]

Yeah totally agree. And I would say he was one of the torch-bearers in taking the business seriously. When he was on-top WWF was essentially a cartoon show. And yet he still had great matches and serious feuds with guys like Henning, Davey Boy, Owen, Austin. The feud with Michaels was great too until it seeped into real life.

There has been alot of talk of him potentially managing FTR in AEW. Eventhough the chances of that happening are unlikely (in my estimation) it would really be something if it did happen. Because if Bret is in that locker-room he likely won't hold back on making his opinion known to some of the spot monkeys and geeks in that AEW locker-room.

I enjoyed that feud 10x more when it go personal and they blurred the lines between kayfabe and reality lol they went all out and there was no turning back, that has to be the best shoot feud ever lol but a big honourable mention to Edge/Matt Hardy that was insane looking back lol I still remember ‘Byte This’ can’t fathom having something similar around now

 

[shaz619]

Did Joe win the ROH TV title ? wonder if it was televised. I just had a thought, personally there be a lot more romanticism with the idea of Punk becoming the ROH world champion again, that would be a real tear jerker, but for AEW it’s important he wins their premier title.

Also glad to see Sonjay Dutt! I would say he is the best Indian origin wrestler of the 2000’s and one of the pillars of TNA’s X-Division, his style was similar to Jody Fleisch who might be a ghost now but in the early 2000’s he was a pioneer of high spot wrestling on the indie circuit, the dude was legit nuts and a focal point for FWA here in England which has folded, it was our ICW

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Punk had Vince’s favour for the most part who was in tears when Punk walked out, the biggest thorn in his backside was Hunter, his ego has no limits; Punk if I understand correctly was a grand slam champion there and also can’t overlook his work as part of the straight edge society. He had creatives backing and he commanded respect through his hard work but Hunter is the one who always attempted to sabotage it all because Punk didn’t fall at his feet and worship him as if he were Harley Race.

Yeah, possibly that dog collar match was arguably his best gimmick match on PPV, if I were to pick a stand out one from WWE I might go with the no holds barred match with Lesnar.

In AEW there wont be anyone standing in his way and it’s a set up where an ATG level performer can take full advantage of and bring all his experiences together

Really? I had no idea he had such a positive relationship with Vince. Part of it may be because I have not heard much on Punk in WWE barring Punk's infamous appearance on Colt Cabana's podcast. The Straight Edge Society was great. But even during that gimmick he was not booked like a top guy, which was my biggest problem with it. Creatively though it was great.

Yeah that match was great. I loved the Ladder match he had with Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam too. At the end of the day though, when it comes to pure fan reaction nothing in WWE or AEW (gimmick or non-gimmick) comes close to Money in the Bank 2011.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I enjoyed that feud 10x more when it go personal and they blurred the lines between kayfabe and reality lol they went all out and there was no turning back, that has to be the best shoot feud ever lol but a big honourable mention to Edge/Matt Hardy that was insane looking back lol I still remember ‘Byte This’ can’t fathom having something similar around now

I think one thing that has to appreciated about that feud, regardless of how you look at it, is that that feud kinda ended up being a light-bulb moment for WWE. In that it made them realize that reality-based storylines were going to resonate more with the audience as compared to the cartoonish B.S they had been doing previously. WCW had realized this a year ago which is one of the reasons why they were putting on a better wrestling show. WWE was still pretty over-the-top even after that but I think there was still alot of stuff people could relate to, as opposed to before where almost every wrestler looked like a cartoon character or had some job like a garbage man or a dentist.

LOL that feud was brilliant. Talk about art imitates life. And to their credit WWE executed that feud to perfection once they realized what they could to with it. They took their time, built some monster heat at SummerSlam, built Hardy up as a true underdog by saddling him with a losing streak and then pulled the trigger inside a Steel Cage at Unforgiven. As tough as all that might have been for him, Matt Hardy's singles career peaked with that feud.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Did Joe win the ROH TV title ? wonder if it was televised. I just had a thought, personally there be a lot more romanticism with the idea of Punk becoming the ROH world champion again, that would be a real tear jerker, but for AEW it’s important he wins their premier title.

Also glad to see Sonjay Dutt! I would say he is the best Indian origin wrestler of the 2000’s and one of the pillars of TNA’s X-Division, his style was similar to Jody Fleisch who might be a ghost now but in the early 2000’s he was a pioneer of high spot wrestling on the indie circuit, the dude was legit nuts and a focal point for FWA here in England which has folded, it was our ICW

Yeah he won it on Dynamite in what I can only call: a chop-fest, against Minoru Suzuki. I think they are trying to get some big names in ROH to build the ROH brand, possibly to get a TV deal. And Joe as TV Champ certainly lends some credibility to that brand.

I loved Sonjay Dutt in TNA. He was so great during those golden years of TNA. I would go so far as to say he was one of the pioneers of the kind of high-spot wrestling we see on Dynamite and other, bigger wrestling shows nowadays.

It's a shame he isn't a wrestler any longer. Because if AEW needed a guy to make inroads into the Indian market, I can't think of anyone better than Sonjay Dutt. Instead I guess we are going to get Great Khali 2.0.

 

[Kianig89]

So the Undertaker is inducted in the HOF and Vincent Kennedy McMahon announced it Rest in Peace

 

[shaz619]

I think one thing that has to appreciated about that feud, regardless of how you look at it, is that that feud kinda ended up being a light-bulb moment for WWE. In that it made them realize that reality-based storylines were going to resonate more with the audience as compared to the cartoonish B.S they had been doing previously. WCW had realized this a year ago which is one of the reasons why they were putting on a better wrestling show. WWE was still pretty over-the-top even after that but I think there was still alot of stuff people could relate to, as opposed to before where almost every wrestler looked like a cartoon character or had some job like a garbage man or a dentist.

LOL that feud was brilliant. Talk about art imitates life. And to their credit WWE executed that feud to perfection once they realized what they could to with it. They took their time, built some monster heat at SummerSlam, built Hardy up as a true underdog by saddling him with a losing streak and then pulled the trigger inside a Steel Cage at Unforgiven. As tough as all that might have been for him, Matt Hardy's singles career peaked with that feud.

Yep that defo contributed to the shift in their image, and you’re right while WCW may have realised that earlier, the WWF were simply too professional to fail. I’d be inclined to agree with that to an extent on Matt, although the stuff he did with TNA was very innovative and creative, I still don’t get how Edge and Matt were able to keep professional in the ring, backstage it was a different story and I think they had to move Matt to SD because of that

 

[shaz619]

Really? I had no idea he had such a positive relationship with Vince. Part of it may be because I have not heard much on Punk in WWE barring Punk's infamous appearance on Colt Cabana's podcast. The Straight Edge Society was great. But even during that gimmick he was not booked like a top guy, which was my biggest problem with it. Creatively though it was great.

Yeah that match was great. I loved the Ladder match he had with Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam too. At the end of the day though, when it comes to pure fan reaction nothing in WWE or AEW (gimmick or non-gimmick) comes close to Money in the Bank 2011.

I’m not sure but I think Punk mentioned it on that podcast itself but here’s a link to an article reporting it as well:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/wwe...n-cried-backstage-on-the-day-cm-punk-left-wwe

Vince covered for Hunter who was behind most of the poor treatment of Punk and the most petty thing of all; sending Punk his termination papers on his wedding day, Hunter was behind that without a doubt, I will never be fooled by the nature of that guy even with NXT which was project for him to milk the praise from smarks which he never go in his prime. Obviously Vince had to side with his son in law by default but he was a guy who loved Punk and how ballsy he was to challenge creative, despite the vanilla midget stereotype at times I’d say Punk and Bryan had really good runs, remember when Bryan got fired for choking justin roberts; Bryan said to Vince he will now make even more money in the Indies lol that winded Vince up, he bought him back partly due to that as well, he loves the guys who took their chances and backed it up

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Is it just me or WWE has come to a sudden lull once the Mania season is over.

There is not a single intriguing storyline at the moment. Randy and Riddle are doing some good work. Cody Rhodes feels fresh. Apart from that everything is just dead air. Even Edge's segments which are usually very energizing feel dull.

I think a lot of that has to do with unifying the World Titles and Roman not doing anything. Now they're going to unify the tag titles as well which will lead to even less storylines.

With two world titles, usually Roman was doing his thing and Drew/Lashley his. Now there's nothing to be excited about. Plus US and IC titles have been deemed obsolete.

I remember there was a time when even Cruiserweight division felt quite powerful with guys like Rey, Hurricane, Kidman, Noble, Tajiri etc.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Really? I had no idea he had such a positive relationship with Vince. Part of it may be because I have not heard much on Punk in WWE barring Punk's infamous appearance on Colt Cabana's podcast. The Straight Edge Society was great. But even during that gimmick he was not booked like a top guy, which was my biggest problem with it. Creatively though it was great.

Yeah that match was great. I loved the Ladder match he had with Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam too. At the end of the day though, when it comes to pure fan reaction nothing in WWE or AEW (gimmick or non-gimmick) comes close to Money in the Bank 2011.

Don't think the Dog Collar match comes close to his match vs Cena at MITB 11 in terms of isolated match. That match was pure wrestling perfection especially the audience reaction.

 

[Kianig89]

Undertaker vs HBK, Undertaker vs HHH at WM the greatest wrestling matches ever

 

[shaz619]

Don't think the Dog Collar match comes close to his match vs Cena at MITB 11 in terms of isolated match. That match was pure wrestling perfection especially the audience reaction.

As a gimmick match, it’s arguably his best; the other I’d compare it to is the no holds barred match with Lesnar at SS.

If we are talking his best singles matches ever, I find it hard to look past the trilogy with Joe and especially Punk v Joe 2, then there’s the original summer of Punk at ROH and him toying with the fans regarding his imminent departure to WWE and culmination in the emotionally charged world title match with Austin Aries; I recommend both these matches if you’ve not seen them.

The Cena match is right up there though, for me personally; I actually prefer the match they had on RAW prior to WM 29 I think, I was at uni revising and stayed up late to watch an episode of RAW and I got that match! the piledriver spot literally had me falling out my seat, great example of how less is more and not overusing certain moves, I know the move was kinda banned which added to the spot and made the near fall so much more believable, I wonder what you guys think of that match because it falls under the radar [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Is it just me or WWE has come to a sudden lull once the Mania season is over.

There is not a single intriguing storyline at the moment. Randy and Riddle are doing some good work. Cody Rhodes feels fresh. Apart from that everything is just dead air. Even Edge's segments which are usually very energizing feel dull.

I think a lot of that has to do with unifying the World Titles and Roman not doing anything. Now they're going to unify the tag titles as well which will lead to even less storylines.

With two world titles, usually Roman was doing his thing and Drew/Lashley his. Now there's nothing to be excited about. Plus US and IC titles have been deemed obsolete.

I remember there was a time when even Cruiserweight division felt quite powerful with guys like Rey, Hurricane, Kidman, Noble, Tajiri etc.

I haven’t watched the show if am honest besides checking out the Cody Rhodes segments which have been great.

For the upcoming UK tour, I believe Reigns/Drew has been promoted as the main event attraction, I also feel Vince will use these house shows as feeler for how the audience would take to a Drew triumph in Cardiff and perhaps build him up for that. I still have some doubts because Tyson Fury is going to be involved and it’s hard not to book him against Drew

 

[shaz619]

Undertaker vs HBK, Undertaker vs HHH at WM the greatest wrestling matches ever

Taker / Shawn has such great chemistry, created magic whenever they fought. It’s hard to say what is the best match ever but for me personally, Shawn v Angle at WM21 is the greatest match I’ve ever watched in my time as a fan

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I haven’t watched the show if am honest besides checking out the Cody Rhodes segments which have been great.

For the upcoming UK tour, I believe Reigns/Drew has been promoted as the main event attraction, I also feel Vince will use these house shows as feeler for how the audience would take to a Drew triumph in Cardiff and perhaps build him up for that. I still have some doubts because Tyson Fury is going to be involved and it’s hard not to book him against Drew

I hope Drew wins atleast one belt from Reigns during that tour and keeps it. This title unification is crappy especially when you're only going to defend it on ppvs. Makes raw and sd's redundant.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I haven’t watched the show if am honest besides checking out the Cody Rhodes segments which have been great.

For the upcoming UK tour, I believe Reigns/Drew has been promoted as the main event attraction, I also feel Vince will use these house shows as feeler for how the audience would take to a Drew triumph in Cardiff and perhaps build him up for that. I still have some doubts because Tyson Fury is going to be involved and it’s hard not to book him against Drew

Tyson Fury vs Strowman was one of the worst matches ever tbh. As an athlete, Fury should have done better. Even Bad Bunny wrestled quite well despite not being an athlete. Pat McAfee is on another level though.

 

[shaz619]

Tyson Fury vs Strowman was one of the worst matches ever tbh. As an athlete, Fury should have done better. Even Bad Bunny wrestled quite well despite not being an athlete. Pat McAfee is on another level though.

Tyson Fury is a 6ft+ HW, forget something like pro wrestling, no HW champion in history at his size and weight has been so athletic and have that ability to be so fluid with his upper and lower body movement. I thought he gave a really good account of himself personally, I doubt any one of a similar size/height from the combat sports world would be capable of any better. Plus he was working with Braun, the two guys have to slug it out, it wouldn’t make sense for Fury to climb the top rope.

Bad Bunny never done anything special, he pranced around like a spot monkey; just shows you where we are in the business today when we rate what he did so highly, it’s a bad look on his opponent to when they gave that midget way too much to do and he wasn’t even a sportsman

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Tyson Fury is a 6ft+ HW, forget something like pro wrestling, no HW champion in history at his size and weight has been so athletic and have that ability to be so fluid with his upper and lower body movement. I thought he gave a really good account of himself personally, I doubt any one of a similar size/height from the combat sports world would be capable of any better. Plus he was working with Braun, the two guys have to slug it out, it wouldn’t make sense for Fury to climb the top rope.

Bad Bunny never done anything special, he pranced around like a spot monkey; just shows you where we are in the business today when we rate what he did so highly, it’s a bad look on his opponent to when they gave that midget way too much to do and he wasn’t even a sportsman

I know what a freak of an athlete Fury is. He is my personal favorite actually. His agility and speed are extraordinary for his size. But if you look back to that match, I don't think the match had anything in it other than a few punches from either men and then Fury knocking Braun out followed by strowman powerslamming him after the match. Like Braun ain't no Bret Hart, but still they could have booked the match better. Even Big Show vs Mayweather was better than that.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yep that defo contributed to the shift in their image, and you’re right while WCW may have realised that earlier, the WWF were simply too professional to fail. I’d be inclined to agree with that to an extent on Matt, although the stuff he did with TNA was very innovative and creative, I still don’t get how Edge and Matt were able to keep professional in the ring, backstage it was a different story and I think they had to move Matt to SD because of that

I think the biggest difference at the end of the day was that WWF had Vince at the helm. WCW had professionalism during its peak. Till late 1997, I felt they were better than WWF in just about every way. Even after they ruined their biggest and most important angle that they spent a year building, I felt they were putting on a better show than WWF for atleast 8-10 more months. But from 1999 onwards it was just pure chaos. The inmates who had already been loose essentially took over the asylum and kickstarted the disintegration. Whereas, WWF just reached a whole new level. And by 2001 they were at a peak never before seen in wrestling...financially and creatively. And the biggest reason was Vince who was at his peak creatively and didn't just build new stars but gave them a spotlight to shine. And boy did they shine...

Ooh I dunno man, can't say I'm the biggest fan of the Broken Universe.

I'm sure it must have been somewhat uncomfortable for Edge. But ultimately I feel it probably might have been harder for Hardy. At any rate, I am glad that the two have moved on from all that bad blood. They, along with Jeff and Christian even did a Table For 3 episode where they talked about the legacy of their respective tag teams.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Is it just me or WWE has come to a sudden lull once the Mania season is over.

There is not a single intriguing storyline at the moment. Randy and Riddle are doing some good work. Cody Rhodes feels fresh. Apart from that everything is just dead air. Even Edge's segments which are usually very energizing feel dull.

I think a lot of that has to do with unifying the World Titles and Roman not doing anything. Now they're going to unify the tag titles as well which will lead to even less storylines.

With two world titles, usually Roman was doing his thing and Drew/Lashley his. Now there's nothing to be excited about. Plus US and IC titles have been deemed obsolete.

I remember there was a time when even Cruiserweight division felt quite powerful with guys like Rey, Hurricane, Kidman, Noble, Tajiri etc.

WWE for me hasn't been good in atleast 2 years. Pretty much since the pandemic started. So personally I can't say I am surprised. They try to put some effort in during Mania season, just because its Mania. But after that its back to business as usual. All the matches feel the same, most of the segments feel the same and on top of all that, you have RAW which is 3 freaking hours long!

I have no idea what Edge is doing with his high-budget version of The House of Black. I find that gimmick to be utterly stupid on the other show, and its just as stupid here. There is a place for theatrical, special-effects, 'suspend your disbelief' stuff in wrestling. Case in point: The Undertaker or The Fiend when he was actually menacing and not being BBQed in the ring. But this is not it.

Riddle is another guy I don't care about at all. For some reason he is popular with the WWE audience. But personally, I'm just waiting for Orton to turn on him as we all know he eventually will. Speaking of which, WWE has got to have the most boring tag team division in wrestling, its no wonder that they are deciding to unify the tag team belts. I honestly feel like I will see more interesting matches on IMPACT if I bothered to watch that show. You can't even compare WWE's tag-team division to AEW's that has a legit insane group of tag team talent.

The only two good things about WWE right now are Cody and Roman. Roman has been incredible pretty much since he turned heel so that's nothing new. But Cody is a real breath of fresh air right now. He comes across like a real star, he feels different as compared to everyone else on the roster and he's extremely over with the crowd. Let's hope he can stay on top because WWE is in desperate need of some actual main-event stars right now.

Yeah, WWE borrowed that idea from WCW who pioneered the idea Cruiserweights in the US. The Cruiserweight talent that WCW had at one point was seriously good: Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman, Ultimo Dragon, Psychosis, Juventud Guerrera. Even Noble and Helms started out in WCW during its last days. And the Cruiserweights always stole the show. WWE did a good job of bringing the idea back on SmackDown initially but eventually made a mockery of it by putting the Cruiserweight belt on Hornswoggle and ruining the credibility of everyone in that division. There is always a place for that kind of high-work rate, high-spot style of wrestling even if it isn't connected to a big angle or storyline. But it needs to be executed properly.

They tried to bring that idea back with the Cruiserweight Classic in 2016 and 205 Live but it because it was essentially presented as the D show, it was never taken seriously enough by the fans.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I’m not sure but I think Punk mentioned it on that podcast itself but here’s a link to an article reporting it as well:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/wwe...n-cried-backstage-on-the-day-cm-punk-left-wwe

Vince covered for Hunter who was behind most of the poor treatment of Punk and the most petty thing of all; sending Punk his termination papers on his wedding day, Hunter was behind that without a doubt, I will never be fooled by the nature of that guy even with NXT which was project for him to milk the praise from smarks which he never go in his prime. Obviously Vince had to side with his son in law by default but he was a guy who loved Punk and how ballsy he was to challenge creative, despite the vanilla midget stereotype at times I’d say Punk and Bryan had really good runs, remember when Bryan got fired for choking justin roberts; Bryan said to Vince he will now make even more money in the Indies lol that winded Vince up, he bought him back partly due to that as well, he loves the guys who took their chances and backed it up

That's quite interesting. It isn't all that surprising because Vince does respect people who know who they are, what they want and actually stand up for themselves. But still Vince's reaction is an interesting one that you would not necessarily expect from him.

Funny you bring up Bryan because I find his relationship with Vince to be kinda interesting aswell. I mean here's someone who like you mentioned was fired by them initially. And was basically the exact anti-thesis of what they want a top guy to be. Even more so than Punk. And yet when you look at it, Bryan spent pretty much the entirely of his career post-2012 in the main-event. A major reason for that was the fans. But Vince too became a big fan of him eventually, especially after he came back. And Bryan to this day has a great relationship with Vince and credits him for teaching him alot.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't think the Dog Collar match comes close to his match vs Cena at MITB 11 in terms of isolated match. That match was pure wrestling perfection especially the audience reaction.

I find audience reaction to be a pretty misleading thing. And the only reason I say that is because when I saw this match in 2011, I too thought it was the greatest match in the history of wrestling. But when I revisited it, I didn't feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, its a great match but for me personally it wasn't even the best Cena v Punk match. I felt their match on RAW was a superior wrestling match.

It's the same thing with Hogan v Rock at WM 18 or Hogan v Goldberg on Nitro. If you go by crowd reactions there are few things in the history of wrestling that rival that. But when you focus on the action in the ring, there isn't all that much going on.

Cena v Punk at MITB was a really well-worked match. But if I take out the crowd and look at the match in isolation I can't say those guys did anything too different or unique in the ring.

The reason I love that Dog Collar match so much (even more than MITB 2011) is because besides being an incredible blow-off gimmick match it was also an absolutely perfect ending to an absolutely perfect feud. It was exactly what it needed to be and as a wrestling fan, fitting conclusions just hit different for me because of how rare they are.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

As a gimmick match, it’s arguably his best; the other I’d compare it to is the no holds barred match with Lesnar at SS.

If we are talking his best singles matches ever, I find it hard to look past the trilogy with Joe and especially Punk v Joe 2, then there’s the original summer of Punk at ROH and him toying with the fans regarding his imminent departure to WWE and culmination in the emotionally charged world title match with Austin Aries; I recommend both these matches if you’ve not seen them.

The Cena match is right up there though, for me personally; I actually prefer the match they had on RAW prior to WM 29 I think, I was at uni revising and stayed up late to watch an episode of RAW and I got that match! the piledriver spot literally had me falling out my seat, great example of how less is more and not overusing certain moves, I know the move was kinda banned which added to the spot and made the near fall so much more believable, I wonder what you guys think of that match because it falls under the radar [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

The trilogy with Joe rightly gets alot of praise but that match he had with Aries is seriously underrated. Not only is it an excellent wrestling match but the finish is such a ballsy finish that you could have only expected from a company like ROH and a booker like Gabe Sapolsky at the time. No one else would have had the cajones to do something like that back then or today.

Yeah man me too. MITB is a special match for me because it represented Punk becoming a bonafide star, but I also feel that the match he and Cena had on RAW was a superior wrestling match. Which isn't all that surprising because Punk claimed that his contract was being finalized at the PPV and because things were up in the air, he and Cena never had a chance to work out the match and essentially called it in the ring.

 

[Kianig89]

watching some old footage on Youtube The Undertaker had more moves than anybody else all lethal moves The last ride chokeslam hells gate Tombstone Goldberg comes next to him

 

[Kianig89]

Watched an old clip of Summerslam 03 elimination chamber what aura and ferocity Goldberg created toyed with HBK Jericho and Orton brutally manhandled and even a legendary icon like HHH had a glum look on his face though a shame Goldberg didn't won add to it JR and Cole epic comm. Really WWE is not the same anymore

 

[Kianig89]

Taker / Shawn has such great chemistry, created magic whenever they fought. It’s hard to say what is the best match ever but for me personally, Shawn v Angle at WM21 is the greatest match I’ve ever watched in my time as a fan

Taker vs HHH all three WM matches are worth watching some real epic encounters

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

watching some old footage on Youtube The Undertaker had more moves than anybody else all lethal moves The last ride chokeslam hells gate Tombstone Goldberg comes next to him

Goldberg was a massive star but a largely awful wrestler. When I think of great Goldberg matches I can't really think of a single one. Even at his peak he was best when used in limited doses because he never really learned to wrestler. That said, I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that he was the biggest star in wrestling after Stone Cold, in what was the hottest period for pro-wrestling ever.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Slightly OT but I find it somewhat fascinating that HHH lost to Benoit 6 out of 7 times between 2004 and 2005. I know you don't hold a particularly high opinion of HHH (not that I blame you) but do you think H respected Benoit more than almost everyone else on the roster? Because of what Benoit did, no one will probably discuss this but for some reason it just surprises me that H who buried just about everyone he could bury on the roster lost to Benoit 6 out of 7 times---most of which were clean finishes where he was pinned or made to submit in the middle of the ring. And its not even like Benoit was a tippy top guy in the company for most of his run. Barring 2004 which was his year, Benoit spent most of the time in the midcard or slightly above that.

 

[Markhor]

Taker / Shawn has such great chemistry, created magic whenever they fought. It’s hard to say what is the best match ever but for me personally, Shawn v Angle at WM21 is the greatest match I’ve ever watched in my time as a fan

Believe it or not, that's the first wrestling match I ever watched. Didn't see it live, it was shown on some end-of-year special on Sky Sports (I think I subscribed to watch the 2005 Pakistan vs England home series but I could be wrong) and was hooked from then.

Bobby Heenan called it the greatest match he'd seen in his 40 years in the business.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Slightly OT but I find it somewhat fascinating that HHH lost to Benoit 6 out of 7 times between 2004 and 2005. I know you don't hold a particularly high opinion of HHH (not that I blame you) but do you think H respected Benoit more than almost everyone else on the roster? Because of what Benoit did, no one will probably discuss this but for some reason it just surprises me that H who buried just about everyone he could bury on the roster lost to Benoit 6 out of 7 times---most of which were clean finishes where he was pinned or made to submit in the middle of the ring. And its not even like Benoit was a tippy top guy in the company for most of his run. Barring 2004 which was his year, Benoit spent most of the time in the midcard or slightly above that.

That’s a big misconception bro on the big success in 04 alone, it was a shark tank back then and the level of depth in their roster was mental. Benoit came in as a guy who commanded respect for being one of the hardest workers in the business having built a reputation all around the world and among the chaos in WCW, Benoit kept delivering in the ring, he was extremely disciplined and a perfectionist. When he came to the E, whether he was in the mid-card, upper-mid card or main-event, he had great matches with almost everyone and I don’t want to make it about Hunter here because Benoit was our guy in the 2000’s, and between 01-03, his popularity sky-rocketed, the company was in transition and the likes of Cena, Orton, Batista and I’d even say Brock wasn’t ready yet the schedule was too much for him Benoit was on the brink of greatness and putting on some of the best matches of his career very consistently. Watch him against the likes of Jericho and Angle especially, I’d say the biggest test for him was that co-main event / world title match against Angle at the Rumble in 03, it proved to Vince he can be the man. Benoit ended up having a longer reign then we all imagined at the time and look Hunter respected Benoit no doubt about that, but I really doubt he was going to be able to influence this one due to Benoit’s body of work, see if you can have a quick look at Meltzer archives on Benoit matches during the early 2000’s and see the level of consistency, I know the guy is biased but he has built up a decent library to fall back on with stuff like this, Benoit was relentless he worked each match like it was his last lol Hunter admired him no doubt, I recall he and Shawn being the only ones to use the cross face following what he did as a form of tribute despite what he did

 

[shaz619]

Believe it or not, that's the first wrestling match I ever watched. Didn't see it live, it was shown on some end-of-year special on Sky Sports (I think I subscribed to watch the 2005 Pakistan vs England home series but I could be wrong) and was hooked from then.

Bobby Heenan called it the greatest match he'd seen in his 40 years in the business.

The best match to watch to get hooked lol I recall ordering it from an Uncle’s sky subscription via the remote he still doesn’t know about that random £12 bill

If I recall correctly am not sure but I believe Heenan was also in tears when the boys back to the gorilla position, you may well be right; that’s massive praise from a bloke who has seen it all ringside.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I find audience reaction to be a pretty misleading thing. And the only reason I say that is because when I saw this match in 2011, I too thought it was the greatest match in the history of wrestling. But when I revisited it, I didn't feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, its a great match but for me personally it wasn't even the best Cena v Punk match. I felt their match on RAW was a superior wrestling match.

It's the same thing with Hogan v Rock at WM 18 or Hogan v Goldberg on Nitro. If you go by crowd reactions there are few things in the history of wrestling that rival that. But when you focus on the action in the ring, there isn't all that much going on.

Cena v Punk at MITB was a really well-worked match. But if I take out the crowd and look at the match in isolation I can't say those guys did anything too different or unique in the ring.

The reason I love that Dog Collar match so much (even more than MITB 2011) is because besides being an incredible blow-off gimmick match it was also an absolutely perfect ending to an absolutely perfect feud. It was exactly what it needed to be and as a wrestling fan, fitting conclusions just hit different for me because of how rare they are.

I don't know man, they are two different kinds of wrestling/sports entertainment thing. I remember watching Rock vs Hogan live in the morning on supersports 20 years ago, and it remains the best experience ever for me because of the crowd, the occasion and the atmosphere. It wasn't a technical masterpiece but it was exactly what we(I) wanted to see witness.

I think there is a place for both kinds of wrestling. For me personally, crowd reactions and the atmosphere is a big big part of enjoyment.

NXT had a different vibe altogether which was focused on in ring wrestling and the crowd reactions were wild but they were totally different to what is done at Wrestlemania-esque reactions.

The Wargames 2 (UE vs Raiders, Ricochet and Dunne) remains one of my favorite matches as well because of the layered and interconnected storyline and the in ring action but the crowd wasn't that big in it.

Bryan vs Reigns at SD was IMO a perfect match but that happened with no crowd. It was also a perfect culmination of a feud IMO.

I think it's subjective. Everyone will have a different choice and opinion regarding what match/storyline/feud/promotion they like and it's okay for everyone's choice to be diffferent cause in the end, it's a subjective thing and there are no real parameters for that and that's how it should be. It's for our enjoyment, every person will find a totally different thing he would call his favorite.

Think it's about respecting others opinion something the (so called hardcore/real fans) wrestling community refuses to do.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

WWE for me hasn't been good in atleast 2 years. Pretty much since the pandemic started. So personally I can't say I am surprised. They try to put some effort in during Mania season, just because its Mania. But after that its back to business as usual. All the matches feel the same, most of the segments feel the same and on top of all that, you have RAW which is 3 freaking hours long!

I have no idea what Edge is doing with his high-budget version of The House of Black. I find that gimmick to be utterly stupid on the other show, and its just as stupid here. There is a place for theatrical, special-effects, 'suspend your disbelief' stuff in wrestling. Case in point: The Undertaker or The Fiend when he was actually menacing and not being BBQed in the ring. But this is not it.

Riddle is another guy I don't care about at all. For some reason he is popular with the WWE audience. But personally, I'm just waiting for Orton to turn on him as we all know he eventually will. Speaking of which, WWE has got to have the most boring tag team division in wrestling, its no wonder that they are deciding to unify the tag team belts. I honestly feel like I will see more interesting matches on IMPACT if I bothered to watch that show. You can't even compare WWE's tag-team division to AEW's that has a legit insane group of tag team talent.

The only two good things about WWE right now are Cody and Roman. Roman has been incredible pretty much since he turned heel so that's nothing new. But Cody is a real breath of fresh air right now. He comes across like a real star, he feels different as compared to everyone else on the roster and he's extremely over with the crowd. Let's hope he can stay on top because WWE is in desperate need of some actual main-event stars right now.

Yeah, WWE borrowed that idea from WCW who pioneered the idea Cruiserweights in the US. The Cruiserweight talent that WCW had at one point was seriously good: Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman, Ultimo Dragon, Psychosis, Juventud Guerrera. Even Noble and Helms started out in WCW during its last days. And the Cruiserweights always stole the show. WWE did a good job of bringing the idea back on SmackDown initially but eventually made a mockery of it by putting the Cruiserweight belt on Hornswoggle and ruining the credibility of everyone in that division. There is always a place for that kind of high-work rate, high-spot style of wrestling even if it isn't connected to a big angle or storyline. But it needs to be executed properly.

They tried to bring that idea back with the Cruiserweight Classic in 2016 and 205 Live but it because it was essentially presented as the D show, it was never taken seriously enough by the fans.

Well it's pretty clear all Vince cares about is how much money and profits he is generating and what factors help him generate them. Tag team wrestling, cruiserweights etc doesn't weigh in for him now it appears(maybe Nick Khan's has some data on it or Vince is already convinced). Vince wouldn't spend money on anything that wouldn't lead to him generate money. He even discontinued pyro back in 2017 I remember. It's like he doesn't care what audience wants to see as long as he is in profit.

I watched 205 in the initial years till Cedric lost the belt to Murphy I think. It peaked during Neville's reign and then died slowly. It never touched the heights of WWE's own cruiserweight wrestling of early 2000s let alone WCW's division.

I actually like Matt Riddle, he has shown himself to be very adept in every kind of environment he is in. He is extremely talented in the ring and his work in the indies and NXT showed that. He has charisma which is contagious. He was brought to the main roster and he adapted really well there. Jobbed to others and made his opponents look real good. He is working the big sports entertainment style really well now as well. Think he's the sort of guy who will do his best to do whatever material he is given with and whoever he is given to work with. He doesn't look like a guy who complains or refuses to do (Neville) or fails to adapt to whatever he is asked to do regardless of how bad the stuff is(Keith Lee). I think that works for him cause he eventually shines through. I won't be surprised if he rises to the main event status in future.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think the biggest difference at the end of the day was that WWF had Vince at the helm. WCW had professionalism during its peak. Till late 1997, I felt they were better than WWF in just about every way. Even after they ruined their biggest and most important angle that they spent a year building, I felt they were putting on a better show than WWF for atleast 8-10 more months. But from 1999 onwards it was just pure chaos. The inmates who had already been loose essentially took over the asylum and kickstarted the disintegration. Whereas, WWF just reached a whole new level. And by 2001 they were at a peak never before seen in wrestling...financially and creatively. And the biggest reason was Vince who was at his peak creatively and didn't just build new stars but gave them a spotlight to shine. And boy did they shine...

Ooh I dunno man, can't say I'm the biggest fan of the Broken Universe.

I'm sure it must have been somewhat uncomfortable for Edge. But ultimately I feel it probably might have been harder for Hardy. At any rate, I am glad that the two have moved on from all that bad blood. They, along with Jeff and Christian even did a Table For 3 episode where they talked about the legacy of their respective tag teams.

I think 20 years from now, they (hardyz, E and C, Dudleys) will still be acknowledged as guys to revolutionize the tag team wrestling and they have their legacies cemented as ATGs in that category. Meanwhile Matt is the one who has only really failed to build a legacy as a top singles guy. I don't rate Ray or Dvone as a top singles guy either regardless of how many titles they have won on the indies or even TNA.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That’s a big misconception bro on the big success in 04 alone, it was a shark tank back then and the level of depth in their roster was mental. Benoit came in as a guy who commanded respect for being one of the hardest workers in the business having built a reputation all around the world and among the chaos in WCW, Benoit kept delivering in the ring, he was extremely disciplined and a perfectionist. When he came to the E, whether he was in the mid-card, upper-mid card or main-event, he had great matches with almost everyone and I don’t want to make it about Hunter here because Benoit was our guy in the 2000’s, and between 01-03, his popularity sky-rocketed, the company was in transition and the likes of Cena, Orton, Batista and I’d even say Brock wasn’t ready yet the schedule was too much for him Benoit was on the brink of greatness and putting on some of the best matches of his career very consistently. Watch him against the likes of Jericho and Angle especially, I’d say the biggest test for him was that co-main event / world title match against Angle at the Rumble in 03, it proved to Vince he can be the man. Benoit ended up having a longer reign then we all imagined at the time and look Hunter respected Benoit no doubt about that, but I really doubt he was going to be able to influence this one due to Benoit’s body of work, see if you can have a quick look at Meltzer archives on Benoit matches during the early 2000’s and see the level of consistency, I know the guy is biased but he has built up a decent library to fall back on with stuff like this, Benoit was relentless he worked each match like it was his last lol Hunter admired him no doubt, I recall he and Shawn being the only ones to use the cross face following what he did as a form of tribute despite what he did

Eddie and Benoit were already locker room leaders from what I have heard back then. Especially as they were the ones to embarrass Daniel Puder in the Royal Rumble as a receipt after what he did to Angle. The Rock held Benoit in high esteem as well and sold his moves very highly even when Benoit was a midcarder and Dwayne at the top.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well it's pretty clear all Vince cares about is how much money and profits he is generating and what factors help him generate them. Tag team wrestling, cruiserweights etc doesn't weigh in for him now it appears(maybe Nick Khan's has some data on it or Vince is already convinced). Vince wouldn't spend money on anything that wouldn't lead to him generate money. He even discontinued pyro back in 2017 I remember. It's like he doesn't care what audience wants to see as long as he is in profit.

I watched 205 in the initial years till Cedric lost the belt to Murphy I think. It peaked during Neville's reign and then died slowly. It never touched the heights of WWE's own cruiserweight wrestling of early 2000s let alone WCW's division.

I actually like Matt Riddle, he has shown himself to be very adept in every kind of environment he is in. He is extremely talented in the ring and his work in the indies and NXT showed that. He has charisma which is contagious. He was brought to the main roster and he adapted really well there. Jobbed to others and made his opponents look real good. He is working the big sports entertainment style really well now as well. Think he's the sort of guy who will do his best to do whatever material he is given with and whoever he is given to work with. He doesn't look like a guy who complains or refuses to do (Neville) or fails to adapt to whatever he is asked to do regardless of how bad the stuff is(Keith Lee). I think that works for him cause he eventually shines through. I won't be surprised if he rises to the main event status in future.

Absolutely. And that's the saddest part of it all. WWE is essentially too big to fail now...they are making record profits. I've said this numerous times but I love making this analogy: they are like the Disney and McDonalds of wrestling. The brand name is enough to get people in the door. And what that means is that nothing matters. PPV buys don't exist anymore because of the Network, so there is no concrete way of knowing the drawing power of their stars. Ratings-wise no wrestling show has as many viewers, which gives them zero motivation to actually put on a good wrestling show. They can put on the same garbage every week and it will still do a decent number because they have a core base that isn't going anywhere.

And ultimately all that has destroyed innovation and creativity in the company. There's some good stuff here and there but largely it sucks. And I don't see it changing qualitatively anytime soon.

Yeah it was hot during that initial phase where they were featuring a Cruiserweight match on RAW every week. I think it was called the Cruiserweight Classic initially. Neville, Aries, Murphy, Cedric, Gulak all found a way to shine on the show. Murphy in particular had some awesome matches with the likes of Mustafa Ali, Cedric, Tony Nese. I enjoyed the Neville/Aries feud too. But ultimately I think it was always doomed to fail because of the lack of significance and minute audience base that it had.

Yeah no disagreements there. I don't like him at all personally, but he can work that sports entertainment style really well and deliver that goofy, comedy stuff too. I heard they resigned him to a massive deal a year ago. So that tells me that they probably do have some major plans for him.

Well to be fair to Neville, they completely wasted him once he made it to the main roster. He was pretty great on NXT where he was the champ for and had that amazing feud with Sami Zayn, which also featured one of my all-time favorite NXT matches at R-Evolution. But once he made it to the main-roster they had no meaningful story-lines or ideas for him to be involved in. He was just another guy. And I can understand someone as talented as him getting annoyed at how he was booked. He finally found his niche on 205 Live but even there they wanted him to job to Enzo Amore which ended up being the final straw. And honestly, his work and booking in AEW is a vindication of him as a talent. So he was better off leaving the company on his own accord.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't know man, they are two different kinds of wrestling/sports entertainment thing. I remember watching Rock vs Hogan live in the morning on supersports 20 years ago, and it remains the best experience ever for me because of the crowd, the occasion and the atmosphere. It wasn't a technical masterpiece but it was exactly what we(I) wanted to see witness.

I think there is a place for both kinds of wrestling. For me personally, crowd reactions and the atmosphere is a big big part of enjoyment.

NXT had a different vibe altogether which was focused on in ring wrestling and the crowd reactions were wild but they were totally different to what is done at Wrestlemania-esque reactions.

The Wargames 2 (UE vs Raiders, Ricochet and Dunne) remains one of my favorite matches as well because of the layered and interconnected storyline and the in ring action but the crowd wasn't that big in it.

Bryan vs Reigns at SD was IMO a perfect match but that happened with no crowd. It was also a perfect culmination of a feud IMO.

I think it's subjective. Everyone will have a different choice and opinion regarding what match/storyline/feud/promotion they like and it's okay for everyone's choice to be diffferent cause in the end, it's a subjective thing and there are no real parameters for that and that's how it should be. It's for our enjoyment, every person will find a totally different thing he would call his favorite.

Think it's about respecting others opinion something the (so called hardcore/real fans) wrestling community refuses to do.

Absolutely man. To each their own. Ultimately there is no right or wrong in wrestling. Alot of times there is stuff that can be objectively good or objectively bad, but basically its down to what you like. Which is why I don't like it when people bring up the "greatest wrestler of all-time", "the greatest wrestler currently" etc etc. It's all about what you like.

I completely understand where you are coming from. The crowd is one of the most essential aspects of wrestling (if not the most). Personally speaking, I am someone who isn't as enamored by the crowd reaction, like I will always put the quality of wrestling above everything else. But how good the other factors are enhances the match for me. At the same time though, I'm not a fan of no crowd either. But its not something that will stop me from giving the deserved props to a great match.

And there were a number of matches during the pandemic that stood out. Off the top of my head in WWE alone, Edge v Orton at Backlash, Reigns v KO at TLC, WALTER v Draganov on NXT UK and the one you mentioned: Bryan v Reigns on SD! were all excellent matches.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Absolutely man. To each their own. Ultimately there is no right or wrong in wrestling. Alot of times there is stuff that can be objectively good or objectively bad, but basically its down to what you like. Which is why I don't like it when people bring up the "greatest wrestler of all-time", "the greatest wrestler currently" etc etc. It's all about what you like.

I completely understand where you are coming from. The crowd is one of the most essential aspects of wrestling (if not the most). Personally speaking, I am someone who isn't as enamored by the crowd reaction, like I will always put the quality of wrestling above everything else. But how good the other factors are enhances the match for me. At the same time though, I'm not a fan of no crowd either. But its not something that will stop me from giving the deserved props to a great match.

And there were a number of matches during the pandemic that stood out. Off the top of my head in WWE alone, Edge v Orton at Backlash, Reigns v KO at TLC, WALTER v Draganov on NXT UK and the one you mentioned: Bryan v Reigns on SD! were all excellent matches.

Walter vs Gragunov is by far the closest you can come to actual fighting IMO. That match should have its own category IMO. The best thing about the match for me was it ended with one of the most basic submission moves ever ie the rear naked choke. No spots, no choreography, no self awareness, just pure fighting.

I think getting a reaction from the crowd and investing the crowd are skills themselves. Like we all know, Dwayne was never a technical wizard yet he brought the crowd in every single match of his during his prime. Bryan, Bret, Edge, HBK, Angle, Jericho(before his body gave way), Joe, Austin etc etc were/are masters of this craft. A lot of indie wrestlers lack that skill something commonly misattributed to as "charisma". I find Jeff Hardy to still be insanely charismatic but isn't able to invest the crowd all through his match before doing his spots or hot tags. He used to be a very good and underrated wrestler who could do that job in his younger days, Taker vs Jeff at Raw. The whole crowd was sooooooo into that match. But yes, I do get it, I can very much ignore the dead crowd or booing crowd aside as well if the match is really good, for example i found Roman vs Miz at Raw 25th ceremony found to be extremely well worked match that was destroyed by the reverse crowd reactions.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Absolutely. And that's the saddest part of it all. WWE is essentially too big to fail now...they are making record profits. I've said this numerous times but I love making this analogy: they are like the Disney and McDonalds of wrestling. The brand name is enough to get people in the door. And what that means is that nothing matters. PPV buys don't exist anymore because of the Network, so there is no concrete way of knowing the drawing power of their stars. Ratings-wise no wrestling show has as many viewers, which gives them zero motivation to actually put on a good wrestling show. They can put on the same garbage every week and it will still do a decent number because they have a core base that isn't going anywhere.

And ultimately all that has destroyed innovation and creativity in the company. There's some good stuff here and there but largely it sucks. And I don't see it changing qualitatively anytime soon.

Yeah it was hot during that initial phase where they were featuring a Cruiserweight match on RAW every week. I think it was called the Cruiserweight Classic initially. Neville, Aries, Murphy, Cedric, Gulak all found a way to shine on the show. Murphy in particular had some awesome matches with the likes of Mustafa Ali, Cedric, Tony Nese. I enjoyed the Neville/Aries feud too. But ultimately I think it was always doomed to fail because of the lack of significance and minute audience base that it had.

Yeah no disagreements there. I don't like him at all personally, but he can work that sports entertainment style really well and deliver that goofy, comedy stuff too. I heard they resigned him to a massive deal a year ago. So that tells me that they probably do have some major plans for him.

Well to be fair to Neville, they completely wasted him once he made it to the main roster. He was pretty great on NXT where he was the champ for and had that amazing feud with Sami Zayn, which also featured one of my all-time favorite NXT matches at R-Evolution. But once he made it to the main-roster they had no meaningful story-lines or ideas for him to be involved in. He was just another guy. And I can understand someone as talented as him getting annoyed at how he was booked. He finally found his niche on 205 Live but even there they wanted him to job to Enzo Amore which ended up being the final straw. And honestly, his work and booking in AEW is a vindication of him as a talent. So he was better off leaving the company on his own accord.

I think Neville had some problems with AEW as well in regards to doing the job to Page back when AEW started. I think he has either improved his attitude now or has realised that you can't work in a big company how you want to unless you're the top guy.

There are some guys like Kross who were never really given a chance in the first place in main roster who have a legit excuse for being treated poorly. I think Neville was poorly treated and should have never been asked to lose to Enzo, but I think, as an employee you should be able to work through the bad times and rise up eventually. Cause we know, life will never be easy.

Ricochet has the same problem (he's been my favorite wrestler for 5 years now), but is unable to invest the WWE crowd (probably because they are either casuals or kids). But I think his attitude has been superb throughout. He's been booked even worse than Neville on the roster despite being more talented(subjective I guess) but he's persevered. I think he might finally be starting to come into his own (wishful thinking maybe?) but WWE has atleast given him something of a push atleast. He was consistently losing to guys like Ridge Holland, Sheamus and even Retribution some time back.

This may be a life/career crisis going on guy inside me saying but I believe hard work and honesty pays off eventually in one way or another.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Walter vs Gragunov is by far the closest you can come to actual fighting IMO. That match should have its own category IMO. The best thing about the match for me was it ended with one of the most basic submission moves ever ie the rear naked choke. No spots, no choreography, no self awareness, just pure fighting.

I think getting a reaction from the crowd and investing the crowd are skills themselves. Like we all know, Dwayne was never a technical wizard yet he brought the crowd in every single match of his during his prime. Bryan, Bret, Edge, HBK, Angle, Jericho(before his body gave way), Joe, Austin etc etc were/are masters of this craft. A lot of indie wrestlers lack that skill something commonly misattributed to as "charisma". I find Jeff Hardy to still be insanely charismatic but isn't able to invest the crowd all through his match before doing his spots or hot tags. He used to be a very good and underrated wrestler who could do that job in his younger days, Taker vs Jeff at Raw. The whole crowd was sooooooo into that match. But yes, I do get it, I can very much ignore the dead crowd or booing crowd aside as well if the match is really good, for example i found Roman vs Miz at Raw 25th ceremony found to be extremely well worked match that was destroyed by the reverse crowd reactions.

I actually loved their second match more. The one they had on TakeOver 36. But the one they had infront of no crowd was incredible aswell and not too far off from the second one.

No I'm not saying that investing the crowd is not important. If anything, it goes hand in hand with having a great match. But for me, the quality of wrestling is simply the most important thing. I'm someone who might look past other flaws in a match if the wrestling is up to snuff. But hey that's just me.

Hardy peaked during 2008-09. At that time he was getting monster crowd reactions and getting over really well as a top babyface. They had big plans for him and one point there was even some contemplation about him taking John Cena's place at 'the' top babyface in the company. Unfortunately, Hardy's own actions---namely his issues with drugs---put the breaks on that push. From what I recall he had multiple violations of his wellness policy and for a company like WWE that was enough for them to realize that he was not a guy that they could rely on to carry the company flag so to speak. Which is sad because Hardy was one of the few true natural babyfaces that WWE had during that period. And since he wasn't shoved down their throats like Cena, the fans actually like him. Sadly he was his own worst enemy.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Neville had some problems with AEW as well in regards to doing the job to Page back when AEW started. I think he has either improved his attitude now or has realised that you can't work in a big company how you want to unless you're the top guy.

There are some guys like Kross who were never really given a chance in the first place in main roster who have a legit excuse for being treated poorly. I think Neville was poorly treated and should have never been asked to lose to Enzo, but I think, as an employee you should be able to work through the bad times and rise up eventually. Cause we know, life will never be easy.

Ricochet has the same problem (he's been my favorite wrestler for 5 years now), but is unable to invest the WWE crowd (probably because they are either casuals or kids). But I think his attitude has been superb throughout. He's been booked even worse than Neville on the roster despite being more talented(subjective I guess) but he's persevered. I think he might finally be starting to come into his own (wishful thinking maybe?) but WWE has atleast given him something of a push atleast. He was consistently losing to guys like Ridge Holland, Sheamus and even Retribution some time back.

This may be a life/career crisis going on guy inside me saying but I believe hard work and honesty pays off eventually in one way or another.

Well I didn't hear anything about that so I can't comment on it. Maybe PAC is difficult to deal with, but I can't say for sure because I haven't read anything on that. But alot of time wrestlers in WWE have issues with doing jobs because logically it makes no sense. And for that I sympathize with alot of them. I was just hearing Miro the other day talk about his WWE run and how the first thing that was asked of him after coming back from a lengthy injury was to job to Cena at SummerSlam just because it was the 4th of July and Vince had the badly dated 'American hero beats foreign heel' angle in mind. Miro didn't have a a problem jobbing to Cena but felt it would have made more sense if he was built up as an actual threat first by getting some wins under his belt.

I would have to disagree with you there. I believe that if someone is confident in their abilities and feels that they are being treated poorly by their employer than for me, they have every right to pack up ad leave. I think taking a chance on yourself is always better than being miserable or being content in the same spot just because the money is good. I mean just look at Mox. He is arguably one of the biggest stars in pro-wrestling today. Had he taken the "massive" amount of money that WWE offered him to re-sign and stayed there I doubt that would be the case.

To be honest, I attribute Ricochet not being as over as he should be to his booking. I mean here is a guy who is absolutely spectacular in everything he does. There are so many clumsy, botch-heavy spot-monkeys in this business who don't even do one-third of the stuff that Ricochet does. Ricochet doesn't just do that stuff but does it smoothly without any eff ups or botches. He has all the potential in the world to be this generation's Rey Mysterio, but how are the fans going to take him seriously when he can't even get on a two-night WrestleMania? He has been IC Champion for almost two months now but hasn't been involved in even a single actual feud. And before that he was essentially a jobber on Raw for the better part of 2 years.

The WWE crowd is already known as a sports entertainment crowd that is more interested in angles and segments and does not expect good wrestling on a weekly basis. So its already pretty hard to get them interested. But when you add bad booking to the mix, it becomes difficult to get over even for someone as insanely talented as Ricochet.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That’s a big misconception bro on the big success in 04 alone, it was a shark tank back then and the level of depth in their roster was mental. Benoit came in as a guy who commanded respect for being one of the hardest workers in the business having built a reputation all around the world and among the chaos in WCW, Benoit kept delivering in the ring, he was extremely disciplined and a perfectionist. When he came to the E, whether he was in the mid-card, upper-mid card or main-event, he had great matches with almost everyone and I don’t want to make it about Hunter here because Benoit was our guy in the 2000’s, and between 01-03, his popularity sky-rocketed, the company was in transition and the likes of Cena, Orton, Batista and I’d even say Brock wasn’t ready yet the schedule was too much for him Benoit was on the brink of greatness and putting on some of the best matches of his career very consistently. Watch him against the likes of Jericho and Angle especially, I’d say the biggest test for him was that co-main event / world title match against Angle at the Rumble in 03, it proved to Vince he can be the man. Benoit ended up having a longer reign then we all imagined at the time and look Hunter respected Benoit no doubt about that, but I really doubt he was going to be able to influence this one due to Benoit’s body of work, see if you can have a quick look at Meltzer archives on Benoit matches during the early 2000’s and see the level of consistency, I know the guy is biased but he has built up a decent library to fall back on with stuff like this, Benoit was relentless he worked each match like it was his last lol Hunter admired him no doubt, I recall he and Shawn being the only ones to use the cross face following what he did as a form of tribute despite what he did

It's been a long time since I saw those matches but now that you mention it I honestly cannot recall seeing a bad Chris Benoit match from 2002 onwards. I love the point about him wrestling every match as if it were his last. That perfectly captures the kind of wrestler he was. His intensity was well and truly off the charts. I am glad you brought up the 2003 Rumble match because I think its easily one of the greatest wrestling matches ever. I didn't think it was possible for him and Angle to top their match at Unforgiven '02 and then they had this classic.

And yeah, you're right. Especially about his level of consistency. Even in WCW where he was initially pigeonholed as a "cruiserweight" and where guys like Nash and Hogan tried their best to bury him, he managed to rise to the top and capture the World Championship. And this was a time when the WCW belt had some semblance of credibility left and when the main-event was dominated by guys who were all taller or bigger than him.

As a person, I think he's a coward who deserves to rot in hell for what he did. I will never have any respect for him as a human being. But as a wrestler I think he was one of the greatest of all-time. Its a real shame that there is such a dichotomy between those two sides of him. But that's just way it is I guess.

 

[shokz1408]

It’s a nice card for Fridays london show
Looking forward to see reigns and the USOs
Flair v Rousey
And to see Sasha banks

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I actually loved their second match more. The one they had on TakeOver 36. But the one they had infront of no crowd was incredible aswell and not too far off from the second one.

No I'm not saying that investing the crowd is not important. If anything, it goes hand in hand with having a great match. But for me, the quality of wrestling is simply the most important thing. I'm someone who might look past other flaws in a match if the wrestling is up to snuff. But hey that's just me.

Hardy peaked during 2008-09. At that time he was getting monster crowd reactions and getting over really well as a top babyface. They had big plans for him and one point there was even some contemplation about him taking John Cena's place at 'the' top babyface in the company. Unfortunately, Hardy's own actions---namely his issues with drugs---put the breaks on that push. From what I recall he had multiple violations of his wellness policy and for a company like WWE that was enough for them to realize that he was not a guy that they could rely on to carry the company flag so to speak. Which is sad because Hardy was one of the few true natural babyfaces that WWE had during that period. And since he wasn't shoved down their throats like Cena, the fans actually like him. Sadly he was his own worst enemy.

Yes I was talking about the NXT Takeover 36 match as well that Ilja won. The first one was great as well but the second one was just another level.

Jeff would still get monstrous crowd reactions if he's booked like a big deal which WWE didn't do in last 5 years(Sadly). Jeff is one of those rare guys that ooze charisma. His silly little dance is enough to make the crowd stand up. Drugs are such a sad part of Jeff's life though. I don't see him booked as a top guy in AEW either now. So I guess the ship has sailed for Jeff. The silly child in me has bought 2 tees of hardy boyz cause I still find them so cool not to cheer for them.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well I didn't hear anything about that so I can't comment on it. Maybe PAC is difficult to deal with, but I can't say for sure because I haven't read anything on that. But alot of time wrestlers in WWE have issues with doing jobs because logically it makes no sense. And for that I sympathize with alot of them. I was just hearing Miro the other day talk about his WWE run and how the first thing that was asked of him after coming back from a lengthy injury was to job to Cena at SummerSlam just because it was the 4th of July and Vince had the badly dated 'American hero beats foreign heel' angle in mind. Miro didn't have a a problem jobbing to Cena but felt it would have made more sense if he was built up as an actual threat first by getting some wins under his belt.

I would have to disagree with you there. I believe that if someone is confident in their abilities and feels that they are being treated poorly by their employer than for me, they have every right to pack up ad leave. I think taking a chance on yourself is always better than being miserable or being content in the same spot just because the money is good. I mean just look at Mox. He is arguably one of the biggest stars in pro-wrestling today. Had he taken the "massive" amount of money that WWE offered him to re-sign and stayed there I doubt that would be the case.

To be honest, I attribute Ricochet not being as over as he should be to his booking. I mean here is a guy who is absolutely spectacular in everything he does. There are so many clumsy, botch-heavy spot-monkeys in this business who don't even do one-third of the stuff that Ricochet does. Ricochet doesn't just do that stuff but does it smoothly without any eff ups or botches. He has all the potential in the world to be this generation's Rey Mysterio, but how are the fans going to take him seriously when he can't even get on a two-night WrestleMania? He has been IC Champion for almost two months now but hasn't been involved in even a single actual feud. And before that he was essentially a jobber on Raw for the better part of 2 years.

The WWE crowd is already known as a sports entertainment crowd that is more interested in angles and segments and does not expect good wrestling on a weekly basis. So its already pretty hard to get them interested. But when you add bad booking to the mix, it becomes difficult to get over even for someone as insanely talented as Ricochet.

Yes I do sympathize with the guys who are stuck in a limbo but the thing is once you refuse to do something you get labelled as being difficult to work with. I liked Miro as well. No way am I on WWE's side, but I am just saying that the contract they sign make them legally bound to do what their employer ask of them(which I don't like myself either) but unfortunately that's what they are obliged to do. You have to wait for your contract to expire and then leave rather than refusing to work. Just like QdK was obliged to take the knee during the wt20 as per his contract (even though it sounds ridiculous but that's what legally bound to do is). No way do I endorse it, but just stating the fact that it is what that has to be done.

No one is more disappointed with Ricochet's booking more than I am (apart from the guy himself lol) cause he is my personal favorite currently. Even Steve Austin, who I consider to be someone who really knows pro wrestling rates him highly. Randy likes him as well and as per news is working with him regarding his character and mic skills stuff. I agree with all of what you said regarding the injustice done to him (esp not getting booked on Mania despite being the IC Champ), but what I wanted to emphasize on was how great his attitude has been through out. Has never once complained about it to "journalists" or on social media. Plus I have heard Ricochet is killing it in the live events and getting a lot of cheers.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's been a long time since I saw those matches but now that you mention it I honestly cannot recall seeing a bad Chris Benoit match from 2002 onwards. I love the point about him wrestling every match as if it were his last. That perfectly captures the kind of wrestler he was. His intensity was well and truly off the charts. I am glad you brought up the 2003 Rumble match because I think its easily one of the greatest wrestling matches ever. I didn't think it was possible for him and Angle to top their match at Unforgiven '02 and then they had this classic.

And yeah, you're right. Especially about his level of consistency. Even in WCW where he was initially pigeonholed as a "cruiserweight" and where guys like Nash and Hogan tried their best to bury him, he managed to rise to the top and capture the World Championship. And this was a time when the WCW belt had some semblance of credibility left and when the main-event was dominated by guys who were all taller or bigger than him.

As a person, I think he's a coward who deserves to rot in hell for what he did. I will never have any respect for him as a human being. But as a wrestler I think he was one of the greatest of all-time. Its a real shame that there is such a dichotomy between those two sides of him. But that's just way it is I guess.

One thing I'd like to add here is if you look at the pictures of Eddie and Benoit, their bodies regardless of being not the biggest dudes are a textbook example of Steroid abuse sadly. The disproportionate muscle mass on shoulders and chest is a characteristic thing that we study. Steroid abuse likely had a lot of role in the cardiac condition of Eddie and sorrily his untimely demise.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes I was talking about the NXT Takeover 36 match as well that Ilja won. The first one was great as well but the second one was just another level.

Jeff would still get monstrous crowd reactions if he's booked like a big deal which WWE didn't do in last 5 years(Sadly). Jeff is one of those rare guys that ooze charisma. His silly little dance is enough to make the crowd stand up. Drugs are such a sad part of Jeff's life though. I don't see him booked as a top guy in AEW either now. So I guess the ship has sailed for Jeff. The silly child in me has bought 2 tees of hardy boyz cause I still find them so cool not to cheer for them.

He was getting pretty good reactions in WWE during his last run. I would even say he was one of the most over guys in the company, although that doesn't mean much in WWE in this day and age. And from what I read he was scheduled to do a program with Reigns until he was fired for doing the drugs that he didn't even do.

Yeah but we all know the Jeff Hardy of today simply isn't the Jeff Hardy of 2008-09. I mean don't get me wrong he is still one of the biggest stars in wrestling today who is going to be over wherever he goes. But he is somewhat limited in the ring at this stage of his career which doesn't surprise me considering all that he has put his body through over the years. But that doesn't exactly make him an attractive prospect for that main-event spot either. He can still have very good matches, which he did during his last WWE run but yeah I think its fair to say that his best days are behind him.

I just can't comprehend though how WWE let him slip through their fingers and walk right on over to the other show. I mean that has got to be one of the most incompetent things they have done in quite some time. They fired him for a drug violation without even getting back the results of his drug test. And then when they did and found out that he was clean and it was them who had effed up, they tried to beg and plead for him to come back. The whole thing was just laughable and the height of incompetence considering it was fairly obvious that their competition would try to get him as soon as they could, which they did.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

One thing I'd like to add here is if you look at the pictures of Eddie and Benoit, their bodies regardless of being not the biggest dudes are a textbook example of Steroid abuse sadly. The disproportionate muscle mass on shoulders and chest is a characteristic thing that we study. Steroid abuse likely had a lot of role in the cardiac condition of Eddie and sorrily his untimely demise.

Yeah I don't think there's any doubt that steroid abuse contributed significantly to both their deaths. With Eddie I think it was that history of pain-killer addiction that did alot of damage to his body, and on top of that he very clearly started taking steroids late in his career to get as big as he did, which likely sped up the whole process leading to his ultimate demise.

With Benoit there were multiple accounts of 'roid rage' and erratic behavior as reported by his late wife. I'm also fairly certain that Benoit abused pain-killers. Because the kind of physical style he wrestled had to have taken a massive toll on his body. Add to that a history of concussions that were never really given the attention that they would be given in this day and age. And that's a lethal combination. To clarify, I'm not defending or justifying Benoit in any way. But merely pointing out that there was shockingly less attention given to these things in pro-wrestling. And its sad that it had to take such a horrific tragedy to finally bring attention to them.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes I do sympathize with the guys who are stuck in a limbo but the thing is once you refuse to do something you get labelled as being difficult to work with. I liked Miro as well. No way am I on WWE's side, but I am just saying that the contract they sign make them legally bound to do what their employer ask of them(which I don't like myself either) but unfortunately that's what they are obliged to do. You have to wait for your contract to expire and then leave rather than refusing to work. Just like QdK was obliged to take the knee during the wt20 as per his contract (even though it sounds ridiculous but that's what legally bound to do is). No way do I endorse it, but just stating the fact that it is what that has to be done.

No one is more disappointed with Ricochet's booking more than I am (apart from the guy himself lol) cause he is my personal favorite currently. Even Steve Austin, who I consider to be someone who really knows pro wrestling rates him highly. Randy likes him as well and as per news is working with him regarding his character and mic skills stuff. I agree with all of what you said regarding the injustice done to him (esp not getting booked on Mania despite being the IC Champ), but what I wanted to emphasize on was how great his attitude has been through out. Has never once complained about it to "journalists" or on social media. Plus I have heard Ricochet is killing it in the live events and getting a lot of cheers.

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. But personally, I don't subscribe to this view. A contract from me is just another man-made instrument designed for someone who has more power than you, to control you. I'm not saying that all contracts are unfair. But if we just stick to the wrestling business and WWE, it seems patently obvious that one side has all the power while the other side has little to no power at all. Like you can't do anything outside WWE even if they haven't used you on TV for 6 months. But you can be fired literally anytime. And if you are tired of it all and want to leave on your own accord that can't exactly happen either.

I personally believe that if anyone is unhappy at their job they should have the choice to leave instead of needlessly hanging around being miserable and not really contributing to the company in any meaningful way either.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He was getting pretty good reactions in WWE during his last run. I would even say he was one of the most over guys in the company, although that doesn't mean much in WWE in this day and age. And from what I read he was scheduled to do a program with Reigns until he was fired for doing the drugs that he didn't even do.

Yeah but we all know the Jeff Hardy of today simply isn't the Jeff Hardy of 2008-09. I mean don't get me wrong he is still one of the biggest stars in wrestling today who is going to be over wherever he goes. But he is somewhat limited in the ring at this stage of his career which doesn't surprise me considering all that he has put his body through over the years. But that doesn't exactly make him an attractive prospect for that main-event spot either. He can still have very good matches, which he did during his last WWE run but yeah I think its fair to say that his best days are behind him.

I just can't comprehend though how WWE let him slip through their fingers and walk right on over to the other show. I mean that has got to be one of the most incompetent things they have done in quite some time. They fired him for a drug violation without even getting back the results of his drug test. And then when they did and found out that he was clean and it was them who had effed up, they tried to beg and plead for him to come back. The whole thing was just laughable and the height of incompetence considering it was fairly obvious that their competition would try to get him as soon as they could, which they did.

Well it was extremely stupid of WWE to book him so badly in his last run. Jeff himself said while watching one of his older matches that he can't do the stuff he could back in the day and can no longer move at that speed. Jeff is a money making machine from merch sales point of view as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. But personally, I don't subscribe to this view. A contract from me is just another man-made instrument designed for someone who has more power than you, to control you. I'm not saying that all contracts are unfair. But if we just stick to the wrestling business and WWE, it seems patently obvious that one side has all the power while the other side has little to no power at all. Like you can't do anything outside WWE even if they haven't used you on TV for 6 months. But you can be fired literally anytime. And if you are tired of it all and want to leave on your own accord that can't exactly happen either.

I personally believe that if anyone is unhappy at their job they should have the choice to leave instead of needlessly hanging around being miserable and not really contributing to the company in any meaningful way either.

I don't endorse it either but just stating the fact what is "correct as per laws" It's just a sad world where people are not treated like humans and how little sense it makes if you just think about it rationally.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah I don't think there's any doubt that steroid abuse contributed significantly to both their deaths. With Eddie I think it was that history of pain-killer addiction that did alot of damage to his body, and on top of that he very clearly started taking steroids late in his career to get as big as he did, which likely sped up the whole process leading to his ultimate demise.

With Benoit there were multiple accounts of 'roid rage' and erratic behavior as reported by his late wife. I'm also fairly certain that Benoit abused pain-killers. Because the kind of physical style he wrestled had to have taken a massive toll on his body. Add to that a history of concussions that were never really given the attention that they would be given in this day and age. And that's a lethal combination. To clarify, I'm not defending or justifying Benoit in any way. But merely pointing out that there was shockingly less attention given to these things in pro-wrestling. And its sad that it had to take such a horrific tragedy to finally bring attention to them.

Yup the wrestling business was too dirty and screwed up till more attention was forced to put on it through the tragic incidents like these.

 

[shaz619]

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. But personally, I don't subscribe to this view. A contract from me is just another man-made instrument designed for someone who has more power than you, to control you. I'm not saying that all contracts are unfair. But if we just stick to the wrestling business and WWE, it seems patently obvious that one side has all the power while the other side has little to no power at all. Like you can't do anything outside WWE even if they haven't used you on TV for 6 months. But you can be fired literally anytime. And if you are tired of it all and want to leave on your own accord that can't exactly happen either.

I personally believe that if anyone is unhappy at their job they should have the choice to leave instead of needlessly hanging around being miserable and not really contributing to the company in any meaningful way either.

Mustafa Ali likes this post

 

[shaz619]

Yeah I don't think there's any doubt that steroid abuse contributed significantly to both their deaths. With Eddie I think it was that history of pain-killer addiction that did alot of damage to his body, and on top of that he very clearly started taking steroids late in his career to get as big as he did, which likely sped up the whole process leading to his ultimate demise.

With Benoit there were multiple accounts of 'roid rage' and erratic behavior as reported by his late wife. I'm also fairly certain that Benoit abused pain-killers. Because the kind of physical style he wrestled had to have taken a massive toll on his body. Add to that a history of concussions that were never really given the attention that they would be given in this day and age. And that's a lethal combination. To clarify, I'm not defending or justifying Benoit in any way. But merely pointing out that there was shockingly less attention given to these things in pro-wrestling. And its sad that it had to take such a horrific tragedy to finally bring attention to them.

I couldn’t finish the dark side of the ring episode, it’s just so upsetting. I would recommend Jericho’s interview with Sandra Toffolon who is Nancy Benoit’s sister, I recall tearing up listening to that back in 2016ish I think, she paints the most vivid picture and was very close to both

 

[shaz619]

Eddie/Benoit changed the business forever, WWE introduced a wellness policy and post 2007 went through a massive shift in their product and image, the company has never been the same since for better or worse