The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] your review bro.

Wardlow v MJF (3/5) - More of a squash than an actual match, but this was absolutely perfect and exactly what it needed to be. Wardlow had a Goldberg-like aura walking into this match and by the end of it they had made a star out of him. Really looking forward to seeing his progression in the coming years.

Young Bucks v Hardy Boys (3.5/5) - This was actually much better than I expected it to be. Young Bucks looked really good here and Matt Hardy didn't look to bad either,. But the Hardy Boys' limitations were evident yet again here. Overall, though I thought this was fairly enjoyable.

Jade Cargill v Anna Jay (2/5) - Nothing match but a good showcase for Jade. Would have been better if it ended 3 minutes earlier.

House of Black v Death Triangle (3.25/5) - This was fun but not nearly the show stealer that people expected it to be. This was the designated spot-fest match on this show, and that's exactly what we got.

Adam Cole v Samoa Joe (3.25/5) - Joe looked absolutely incredible here but Cole looked bang-on average. Whenever Joe had the momentum, this match was compelling to watch, but whenever Cole got the upper-hand it became an average TV match. That disconnect really hurt this match and it wasn't helped by Cole going over.

Britt Baker v Ruby Soho (2/5)

Scorpio Sky, Ethan Page and Page Van Zandt v Sammy Guevara, Kazarian & Tay Conti (2.5/5) - A really weird schizophrenic match with little to no logic.

Darby Allin v Kyle O'Reilly (4.5/5) - This match got less than 10 minutes, had very little heat and it was still the best straight-up wrestling match of the night. Thought it was beautifully paced and showed us a great contrast between Darby's quickness and Kyle's grappling/submission skills. Had one absolutely horrific spot where Darby undershot a dive and landed head/neck first on the floor (thankfully he is okay), but other than that; amazing freaking match. Might actually be one of the best under 10 minute matches I've ever seen.

Thunder Rosa v Serena Deeb (4/5) - This was expected by many to be AEW's best women's match yet, and it was. Both women were outstanding here and went out there and had an excellent no-frills pro-wrestling match. The result was predictable but it still showed why both these women are among the best female wrestlers on the planet. This match did not have the best place on the card though which hurt the reaction that it got.

Jericho Appreciation Society v Moxley, Danielson, Santana, Ortiz & Kingston (4.5/5) - This was a jarring experience initially because you had to get used to following 4-5 different cameras. But once it got going, it got really good. What it was, was an all-out brawl. Certain guys (Kingston, Moxley, Danielson) went out of their way to make this as believable as they could. And while I don't tend to like these types of matches---that take place largely outside the ring, I enjoyed the heck out of this because the cameras captured all the chaos beautifully. And because they were telling 3-4 different stories simultaneously in a largely coherent manner, you never got bored or even got a chance to catch your breath.

The shot of a bloodied Kingston walking down the ramp with a box of gasoline to seemingly set Jericho on fire, was incredible. The stage seems set for these two teams to go at it again in a WarGames match, which I would love to see.

Jurassic Express v Team Taz v Keith Lee/Swerve (4.5/5) - This was really surprisingly great and arguably the surprise of the night for me. Both teams showcased their quickness, athleticism and tag team offence really well. All 6 guys had their moments and the match was consistently exciting/entertaining. And although there was an abundance of high-risk, tandem offence there was very little stuff that felt out of place here.

CM Punk v Adam Page (4.25/5) - This was obviously the match I was most looking forward to. And while it mostly delivered, it was far from perfect. I think it was more story-driven which is why I can look past some flaws. Punk's botches were bad and could have resulted in a serious knee injury for someone like him who is over 40 and not used to doing that move, especially that late in the match. But hey, everyone makes mistakes and sometimes s**t just happens. Still though I thought this was a very good match and Punk winning the belt at the end was the perfect way to send the fans home happy.


Overall, I thought this was an awesome show, but not nearly on the level of All Out 2021 or Full Gear 2021...or even AEW's last PPV: Revolution 2022.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I skimmed through the event as I have no intentions of watching a 4hr plus PPV. Punk vs Page was good but botchy, delivered below the expectations in regards to in ring action and was expecting a raucous crowd cheering Punk on.

Wardlow vs MJF, well it was all about the angle and MJF thankfully put Wardlow over strong. But even then, a guy who had been pinned/submitted only thrice before in his AEW career, to get squashed is a bit unbelievable. Unless this launches Wardlow into the main title event, the manner of victory looks a bit strange to say the least. And even if Wardlow goes into the main event scene, he certainly can't lose to Punk right now.

Hardys vs Bucks like I had said already, delivered to my average expectations. I have seen their matches a few times already and it was no different to that.

JAS vs Blackpool CC was probably the best match on the show.

Death Triangle vs House of Black, well I had expectations of a good fast paced match but it didn't end up being the show stealer. Plus I don't like Brody King at all. He is clearly a level below Black and Murphy.

I don't think you need to put Wardlow in that position. In kayfabe he just got an AEW contract. Therefore logically he needs to beat credible challengers if he even wants to be considered for a World title shot. The only wins that he has over credible challengers are a win each over Archer and MJF.

I think a much better way to use him would be to put him in the TNT title picture. Turn him into a dominant midcard champion. Its a template that has worked with alot of guys on the main-event route. Golderg being one of them. I also think Wardlow needs to be in the ring with more and more good workers so that he can continue to improve as a wrestler.

I'd actually love to see a feud between him and Miro

 

[shaz619]

Wardlow v MJF (3/5) - More of a squash than an actual match, but this was absolutely perfect and exactly what it needed to be. Wardlow had a Goldberg-like aura walking into this match and by the end of it they had made a star out of him. Really looking forward to seeing his progression in the coming years.

Young Bucks v Hardy Boys (3.5/5) - This was actually much better than I expected it to be. Young Bucks looked really good here and Matt Hardy didn't look to bad either,. But the Hardy Boys' limitations were evident yet again here. Overall, though I thought this was fairly enjoyable.

Jade Cargill v Anna Jay (2/5) - Nothing match but a good showcase for Jade. Would have been better if it ended 3 minutes earlier.

House of Black v Death Triangle (3.25/5) - This was fun but not nearly the show stealer that people expected it to be. This was the designated spot-fest match on this show, and that's exactly what we got.

Adam Cole v Samoa Joe (3.25/5) - Joe looked absolutely incredible here but Cole looked bang-on average. Whenever Joe had the momentum, this match was compelling to watch, but whenever Cole got the upper-hand it became an average TV match. That disconnect really hurt this match and it wasn't helped by Cole going over.

Britt Baker v Ruby Soho (2/5)

Scorpio Sky, Ethan Page and Page Van Zandt v Sammy Guevara, Kazarian & Tay Conti (2.5/5) - A really weird schizophrenic match with little to no logic.

Darby Allin v Kyle O'Reilly (4.5/5) - This match got less than 10 minutes, had very little heat and it was still the best straight-up wrestling match of the night. Thought it was beautifully paced and showed us a great contrast between Darby's quickness and Kyle's grappling/submission skills. Had one absolutely horrific spot where Darby undershot a dive and landed head/neck first on the floor (thankfully he is okay), but other than that; amazing freaking match. Might actually be one of the best under 10 minute matches I've ever seen.

Thunder Rosa v Serena Deeb (4/5) - This was expected by many to be AEW's best women's match yet, and it was. Both women were outstanding here and went out there and had an excellent no-frills pro-wrestling match. The result was predictable but it still showed why both these women are among the best female wrestlers on the planet. This match did not have the best place on the card though which hurt the reaction that it got.

Jericho Appreciation Society v Moxley, Danielson, Santana, Ortiz & Kingston (4.5/5) - This was a jarring experience initially because you had to get used to following 4-5 different cameras. But once it got going, it got really good. What it was, was an all-out brawl. Certain guys (Kingston, Moxley, Danielson) went out of their way to make this as believable as they could. And while I don't tend to like these types of matches---that take place largely outside the ring, I enjoyed the heck out of this because the cameras captured all the chaos beautifully. And because they were telling 3-4 different stories simultaneously in a largely coherent manner, you never got bored or even got a chance to catch your breath.

The shot of a bloodied Kingston walking down the ramp with a box of gasoline to seemingly set Jericho on fire, was incredible. The stage seems set for these two teams to go at it again in a WarGames match, which I would love to see.

Jurassic Express v Team Taz v Keith Lee/Swerve (4.5/5) - This was really surprisingly great and arguably the surprise of the night for me. Both teams showcased their quickness, athleticism and tag team offence really well. All 6 guys had their moments and the match was consistently exciting/entertaining. And although there was an abundance of high-risk, tandem offence there was very little stuff that felt out of place here.

CM Punk v Adam Page (4.25/5) - This was obviously the match I was most looking forward to. And while it mostly delivered, it was far from perfect. I think it was more story-driven which is why I can look past some flaws. Punk's botches were bad and could have resulted in a serious knee injury for someone like him who is over 40 and not used to doing that move, especially that late in the match. But hey, everyone makes mistakes and sometimes s**t just happens. Still though I thought this was a very good match and Punk winning the belt at the end was the perfect way to send the fans home happy.


Overall, I thought this was an awesome show, but not nearly on the level of All Out 2021 or Full Gear 2021...or even AEW's last PPV: Revolution 2022.

The event with the dog collar match was better. 4.25 for the main event is too generous, personally it was a 3.6, look at the abilities of the guys in the ring, they disappointed; no story or flow and doing each others moves is not a compelling narrative, you add in the botches and that 3.6 is way too kind they are professionals it’s unacceptable on multiple occasions, I know AEW are numb to this but this is their flag ship main event and these are catering to the enthusiasts… they buckled under pressure and you will see a vast improvement hopefully in the rematch, I hope Punk doesn’t attempt the buck shot deep in a match next time as some sort of redemption spot

 

[shaz619]

I skimmed through the event as I have no intentions of watching a 4hr plus PPV. Punk vs Page was good but botchy, delivered below the expectations in regards to in ring action and was expecting a raucous crowd cheering Punk on.

Wardlow vs MJF, well it was all about the angle and MJF thankfully put Wardlow over strong. But even then, a guy who had been pinned/submitted only thrice before in his AEW career, to get squashed is a bit unbelievable. Unless this launches Wardlow into the main title event, the manner of victory looks a bit strange to say the least. And even if Wardlow goes into the main event scene, he certainly can't lose to Punk right now.

Hardys vs Bucks like I had said already, delivered to my average expectations. I have seen their matches a few times already and it was no different to that.

JAS vs Blackpool CC was probably the best match on the show.

Death Triangle vs House of Black, well I had expectations of a good fast paced match but it didn't end up being the show stealer. Plus I don't like Brody King at all. He is clearly a level below Black and Murphy.

It was average but your assessment I agree with, if we are praising this match overly then there is little to improve when there is a lot more with the structure, not every style will gel with the other, it was the first match they worked to and in a high profile situation it can be tough, the situation was a bit too overwhelming for Punk I think, the rematch will be much better.

I didn’t watch the match but Wardlow winning by squash was the right decision given how they should be building him but at the same time, the guy was working like a Cruser and going 50/50 with Lance Archer; so from that angle you are right to question how he won when they have been damaging his aura of invincibility. But, this is a step in the right direction providing they cut out all the ** with Wardlow. MJF has been vocal about leaving, so who knows what he will do, I think he would be perfect in the E and get treated well, but he is young and can build himself further

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] ever since becky has returned with this heel persona, i can't help but it seems like her mannerisms are based on the hollywood heel rock gimmick. Like the way and tone with which she talks etc and stuff, it's like she's based her whole heel gimmick on the rock. is it just me or you have noticed it too?

I haven’t paid attention to The Rock comparison as much tbh I will look out for any similarities but she is entertaining lol

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I watched the main event of AEW’s flagship PPV and while it was a nice moment / emotionally charged for Punk, outside the decent finishing stretch, the match was sloppy to say the least. The E gets criticised for recycling the same formula at times but if we look at the main event at mania it was solid and to the point, no mucking around, people have been waiting for it all night wrong, keep things simple / moving at a hot pace to start and go to the finish. The styles just didn’t gel unfortunately and they got too cute then they needed to, ignoring the botches (surprised Punk attempted the buck shot really but he tried it on TV as a tester but it’s different doing the move deep in a match and he has never been a flippy guy) anyway there was little flow but they got to the finish in one piece and it’s a big win for Punk, he will happy to get over that one under the pressure of a main event but at the same time I’ve notice many overly criticise the guy, that’s the problem with special events, the casual might turn in or a lapsed fan who watches sporadically and they’d look at that and say this guy is shot etc while those who have seen him perform on a more regular basis know it’s not true but it goes back the point where the margin for error is small on national television. Excited for Punk’s reign though, don’t think I will bother watching the rest of the card from double or nothing. I wonder if each match even has an agent or producer, Paul E would be a god send in these scenarios

Paul E is good for certain tyles of matches. But I don't think this match needed that kind of Paul E booking. Where its big move, big move, take a breather, big move again. That kind of booking works best for WWE main-event matches where you have big, imposing dudes like Brock, Goldberg, Reigns, Lashley. But in the case of these guys you needed them to go out and have a proper wrestling match. And eventhough it was far from perfect from an execution stand-point I thought it blew the Mania main-event out of the water which for me was really underwhelming (after 10+ months of build) and not too different from just about every other Reigns/Lesnar match.

Is DoN AEW's flagship PPV? Because I've heard from alot of people that its All Out. Which wouldn't surprise me since its based off All In, which was the genesis of AEW. But then again, DoN was their first actual PPV.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't think you need to put Wardlow in that position. In kayfabe he just got an AEW contract. Therefore logically he needs to beat credible challengers if he even wants to be considered for a World title shot. The only wins that he has over credible challengers are a win each over Archer and MJF.

I think a much better way to use him would be to put him in the TNT title picture. Turn him into a dominant midcard champion. Its a template that has worked with alot of guys on the main-event route. Golderg being one of them. I also think Wardlow needs to be in the ring with more and more good workers so that he can continue to improve as a wrestler.

I'd actually love to see a feud between him and Miro

Yes but coming over hot from squashing MJF to be feuding with Scorpio Sky and Sammy is going to be underwhelming from my point of view.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I haven’t paid attention to The Rock comparison as much tbh I will look out for any similarities but she is entertaining lol

Yup she's consistently been the best part of the women's division for a few years now. Bayley was doing pretty well before getting injured too. Bianca has stepped up her game in last one year as well.

When I hear her tone and the way she talks as a heel, it seems like an impression of Hollywood Heel Rock.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't think you need to put Wardlow in that position. In kayfabe he just got an AEW contract. Therefore logically he needs to beat credible challengers if he even wants to be considered for a World title shot. The only wins that he has over credible challengers are a win each over Archer and MJF.

I think a much better way to use him would be to put him in the TNT title picture. Turn him into a dominant midcard champion. Its a template that has worked with alot of guys on the main-event route. Golderg being one of them. I also think Wardlow needs to be in the ring with more and more good workers so that he can continue to improve as a wrestler.

I'd actually love to see a feud between him and Miro

When Batista was involved in a similar sort of feud with Trips(the biggest heel in the company ie the position MJF occupies in AEW currently), he came out of it as a main eventer who remained something like undefeated for almost a year IIRC. I don't know if doing all of this for Wardlow just to send him into TNT division would do justice to the storyline.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Wardlow v MJF (3/5) - More of a squash than an actual match, but this was absolutely perfect and exactly what it needed to be. Wardlow had a Goldberg-like aura walking into this match and by the end of it they had made a star out of him. Really looking forward to seeing his progression in the coming years.

Young Bucks v Hardy Boys (3.5/5) - This was actually much better than I expected it to be. Young Bucks looked really good here and Matt Hardy didn't look to bad either,. But the Hardy Boys' limitations were evident yet again here. Overall, though I thought this was fairly enjoyable.

Jade Cargill v Anna Jay (2/5) - Nothing match but a good showcase for Jade. Would have been better if it ended 3 minutes earlier.

House of Black v Death Triangle (3.25/5) - This was fun but not nearly the show stealer that people expected it to be. This was the designated spot-fest match on this show, and that's exactly what we got.

Adam Cole v Samoa Joe (3.25/5) - Joe looked absolutely incredible here but Cole looked bang-on average. Whenever Joe had the momentum, this match was compelling to watch, but whenever Cole got the upper-hand it became an average TV match. That disconnect really hurt this match and it wasn't helped by Cole going over.

Britt Baker v Ruby Soho (2/5)

Scorpio Sky, Ethan Page and Page Van Zandt v Sammy Guevara, Kazarian & Tay Conti (2.5/5) - A really weird schizophrenic match with little to no logic.

Darby Allin v Kyle O'Reilly (4.5/5) - This match got less than 10 minutes, had very little heat and it was still the best straight-up wrestling match of the night. Thought it was beautifully paced and showed us a great contrast between Darby's quickness and Kyle's grappling/submission skills. Had one absolutely horrific spot where Darby undershot a dive and landed head/neck first on the floor (thankfully he is okay), but other than that; amazing freaking match. Might actually be one of the best under 10 minute matches I've ever seen.

Thunder Rosa v Serena Deeb (4/5) - This was expected by many to be AEW's best women's match yet, and it was. Both women were outstanding here and went out there and had an excellent no-frills pro-wrestling match. The result was predictable but it still showed why both these women are among the best female wrestlers on the planet. This match did not have the best place on the card though which hurt the reaction that it got.

Jericho Appreciation Society v Moxley, Danielson, Santana, Ortiz & Kingston (4.5/5) - This was a jarring experience initially because you had to get used to following 4-5 different cameras. But once it got going, it got really good. What it was, was an all-out brawl. Certain guys (Kingston, Moxley, Danielson) went out of their way to make this as believable as they could. And while I don't tend to like these types of matches---that take place largely outside the ring, I enjoyed the heck out of this because the cameras captured all the chaos beautifully. And because they were telling 3-4 different stories simultaneously in a largely coherent manner, you never got bored or even got a chance to catch your breath.

The shot of a bloodied Kingston walking down the ramp with a box of gasoline to seemingly set Jericho on fire, was incredible. The stage seems set for these two teams to go at it again in a WarGames match, which I would love to see.

Jurassic Express v Team Taz v Keith Lee/Swerve (4.5/5) - This was really surprisingly great and arguably the surprise of the night for me. Both teams showcased their quickness, athleticism and tag team offence really well. All 6 guys had their moments and the match was consistently exciting/entertaining. And although there was an abundance of high-risk, tandem offence there was very little stuff that felt out of place here.

CM Punk v Adam Page (4.25/5) - This was obviously the match I was most looking forward to. And while it mostly delivered, it was far from perfect. I think it was more story-driven which is why I can look past some flaws. Punk's botches were bad and could have resulted in a serious knee injury for someone like him who is over 40 and not used to doing that move, especially that late in the match. But hey, everyone makes mistakes and sometimes s**t just happens. Still though I thought this was a very good match and Punk winning the belt at the end was the perfect way to send the fans home happy.


Overall, I thought this was an awesome show, but not nearly on the level of All Out 2021 or Full Gear 2021...or even AEW's last PPV: Revolution 2022.

I had anticipated Joe and Cole's styles not meshing up well enough to produce a banger something like how Edge's tweaked style has failed to gel in well with AJ's so far.

KOR is severely underrated and deserves a lot more IMO. I like Darby's insane speed but I fear for his life with the insane danger he puts his body in every time he wrestles a match.

I have never liked Eddie Kingston and find it hard to get behind him for some reason, but I think he does angles extremely well and with the likes of Y2J, Bryan, Mox and Regal involved, they can create magic.

On the other hand, Jungle Boy needs a gimmick change. A tarzan gimmick for a person so talented is a disfavor. He might have gotten some success with it, but it's time for him to move on from that. A lot of great wrestlers have done that and so can he.

Alongside that, I think Ricky Starks is one that needs more feuds and angles rather than the tripe of ATT and Sammy and Tay's annoying neverending story.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The event with the dog collar match was better. 4.25 for the main event is too generous, personally it was a 3.6, look at the abilities of the guys in the ring, they disappointed; no story or flow and doing each others moves is not a compelling narrative, you add in the botches and that 3.6 is way too kind they are professionals it’s unacceptable on multiple occasions, I know AEW are numb to this but this is their flag ship main event and these are catering to the enthusiasts… they buckled under pressure and you will see a vast improvement hopefully in the rematch, I hope Punk doesn’t attempt the buck shot deep in a match next time as some sort of redemption spot

Upon careful reflection I would probably go 4/5 for Punk v Page. Like I said, it was far from perfect. But it still had a big fight feel and I do think that despite the botches, both guys worked really hard and had a really good wrestling match. And it wasn't like there wasn't anything to the match. It did have a story and flowed fairly well. But undoubtedly it should have been significantly better given the skill-level and talent of both of these competitors.

As far as the botches are concerned, I actually thought Page did a pretty good job levelling almost immediately after Punk after he missed the first Buckshot. My problem was withy the second one, which looked awful, and the superplex spot where Page slipped and that kinda effed up the whole spot because it was supposed to be a quickfire superplex as opposed to the kind of superplex we usually see where both guys are openly cooperating.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I had anticipated Joe and Cole's styles not meshing up well enough to produce a banger something like how Edge's tweaked style has failed to gel in well with AJ's so far.

KOR is severely underrated and deserves a lot more IMO. I like Darby's insane speed but I fear for his life with the insane danger he puts his body in every time he wrestles a match.

I have never liked Eddie Kingston and find it hard to get behind him for some reason, but I think he does angles extremely well and with the likes of Y2J, Bryan, Mox and Regal involved, they can create magic.

On the other hand, Jungle Boy needs a gimmick change. A tarzan gimmick for a person so talented is a disfavor. He might have gotten some success with it, but it's time for him to move on from that. A lot of great wrestlers have done that and so can he.

Alongside that, I think Ricky Starks is one that needs more feuds and angles rather than the tripe of ATT and Sammy and Tay's annoying neverending story.

Well, to each their own but Eddie Kingston for me has been an absolute revelation in AEW. I know he has been around forever...can't say I've ever followed him or his career. But ever since he has arrived in AEW he has been the realest guy on their roster. Every word that comes out of his mouth feels real. For me, he is easily the best promo they have. And I say that knowing full well that AEW has MJF, Punk and Moxley on their roster. And on top of that, he looks exactly like he sounds: like a guy from the streets of NYC who would probably just beat the s**t out of you if you looked sideways.

Jungle Boy reminds me alot of Billy Kidman. During WCW's peak, Kidman was a guy who was having consistently great matches and was seen by many as a major future star. But the guy had zero charisma or personality and never ended up making it big in WCW or WWE. Jungle Boy for me has much of the same strengths and weaknesses. He's a good-looking kid who can have good to great matches, and someone who you can push as a babyface...but he has little to no personality, which is why I don't see him being a top star unless he makes some drastic changes or suddenly develops an actual personality.

Wardlow, Starks and Wheeler Yuta are the most intriguing long-term prospects in AEW for me. MJF is already a top guy so I think he needs to be separated from the pack. Eventhough he is freaking 26 years old, which is simply insane. I love Darby too but I seriously question if he and Sammy Guevara will even be able to walk in a few years time.

I also dearly hope that Kyle O'Reilly finally gets the main-event push down the line, that he was being set-up for in NXT...before ofcourse NXT (as we know it) came to an end. Because he is someone who is supremely talented also someone who is going to be with AEW for the next 5 years.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

When Batista was involved in a similar sort of feud with Trips(the biggest heel in the company ie the position MJF occupies in AEW currently), he came out of it as a main eventer who remained something like undefeated for almost a year IIRC. I don't know if doing all of this for Wardlow just to send him into TNT division would do justice to the storyline.

It pro-wrestling 101 and story that has been done a number of times. The reason it works is because its simple and effective. But keep in mind that when WWE did it, they did specifically with the intention of elevating Batista to the main-event. And by 2005, Batista had spent a number of years in developmental in OVW and on the main-roster where he was wrestling regularly on house-shows and on RAW for a span of three years (minus a year when he was out with an injury).

Wardlow for me, is not ready for that main-event push JUST yet. AEW has protected him by booking him in squash matches that accentuate his strengths, and where he doesn't have to sell. But I highly doubt that he can go out there and have a 20 minute barn-burner with the best workers on the roster.

For me, I think he needs to get more reps in. And that means he will need to have matches where he isn't on-top for 90% of the time. But ofcourse for that you need credible challengers too. Because it would be pretty stupid if he goes 15 minutes with someone like Dante Martin.

AEW will have to be really careful with the way they book Wardlow going forward. On one hand, you can't have him wrestling competitive matches with most guys on the roster, but on the other hand you can't have him doing just squash matches either because then you will have another Goldberg on your hands. There's a fine line to walk here but if he wrestles the right people, wins most of the time and actually gets better, then I think you can not only sustain his momentum but also elevate him to the main-event picture in 6 months.

I should also clarify that what I mean by 'the right people' are basically guys that Wardlow can have competitive matches with, but also guys from whom Wardlow can sell without having his credibility damaged. And this list would include the likes of Miro, Billy Gunn, Malakai Black, Keith Lee, Christian Cage, Andrade. I reckon he could have really good matches with some smaller guys like Starks, Yuta and Buddy Matthews too. But like I said, its a fine line that AEW have to walk with his booking. Because they cannot afford to eff up this guy's ascent to the main-event.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes but coming over hot from squashing MJF to be feuding with Scorpio Sky and Sammy is going to be underwhelming from my point of view.

I have absolutely no idea why Scorpio Sky is the TNT Champion. Considering the kind of talent that AEW has on their roster, it befuddles me that they choose to willingly put their main midcard belt on Scorpio Sky. Like who cares about this guy?

Wardlow cannot have another competitive match with Sky if he wrestles him again...it has to be a squash. But I don't see this direction as being underwhelming. Because if you saddle him with a winning streak, it would continue to reinforce the perception that he is dominant...and if anything, that might actually bring some respectability back to the TNT title, which has become the hot potato belt as of late.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yup she's consistently been the best part of the women's division for a few years now. Bayley was doing pretty well before getting injured too. Bianca has stepped up her game in last one year as well.

When I hear her tone and the way she talks as a heel, it seems like an impression of Hollywood Heel Rock.

Becky for me is the best all-round female talent in the business right now. But I'm not that big of this heel gimmick, which she seems intent on doing more than anyone else wanting her to do it. She's coming up with the same reasons that every heel in WWE seems to come up with these days where its all the fans' fault. And I just can't buy into any of it.

And the reason I say this is because she is so much better as a babyface. And if she turned face tomorrow, the crowd would cheer for her like crazy. But instead we get this weird cartoonish, over-the-top heel gimmick, which just isn't working for me. And btw, almost everything I have said here expect the first line applies to her husband aswell.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] Btw have you guys seen the card for Hell in A Cell? Surely I can't be the only one who is not particualrly excited for this PPV.

The only match that I am looking forward to is Cody v Seth inside the cage. And even that match, we all know is going to end with Cody going over somehow.

Austin Theory vs Mustafa Ali could be good if they actually get some time. But other than that its hard to get excited for anything here and again, it doesn't seem like any effort has been put into making this show must-see.

Last time around atleast you had the star-power of Reigns, McIntyre, Charlotte, Orton and Rousey on the card. This time none of them are featured on the show.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] Btw have you guys seen the card for Hell in A Cell? Surely I can't be the only one who is not particualrly excited for this PPV.

The only match that I am looking forward to is Cody v Seth inside the cage. And even that match, we all know is going to end with Cody going over somehow.

Austin Theory vs Mustafa Ali could be good if they actually get some time. But other than that its hard to get excited for anything here and again, it doesn't seem like any effort has been put into making this show must-see.

Last time around atleast you had the star-power of Reigns, McIntyre, Charlotte, Orton and Rousey on the card. This time none of them are featured on the show.

It's pretty awful how WWE have been treating their own shows as low tier by handicapping them without their big names. I think they are simply telling us to only get excited for MITB, RR, SS, Survivor Series and Mania which is pathetic.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Becky for me is the best all-round female talent in the business right now. But I'm not that big of this heel gimmick, which she seems intent on doing more than anyone else wanting her to do it. She's coming up with the same reasons that every heel in WWE seems to come up with these days where its all the fans' fault. And I just can't buy into any of it.

And the reason I say this is because she is so much better as a babyface. And if she turned face tomorrow, the crowd would cheer for her like crazy. But instead we get this weird cartoonish, over-the-top heel gimmick, which just isn't working for me. And btw, almost everything I have said here expect the first line applies to her husband aswell.

I think Seth has grown immensely since his feud with Bray. He seems like a more battle hardened guy now who is able to retain the heat even after losing his matches. Plus he also has a wrestling school where he is training wrestlers.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have absolutely no idea why Scorpio Sky is the TNT Champion. Considering the kind of talent that AEW has on their roster, it befuddles me that they choose to willingly put their main midcard belt on Scorpio Sky. Like who cares about this guy?

Wardlow cannot have another competitive match with Sky if he wrestles him again...it has to be a squash. But I don't see this direction as being underwhelming. Because if you saddle him with a winning streak, it would continue to reinforce the perception that he is dominant...and if anything, that might actually bring some respectability back to the TNT title, which has become the hot potato belt as of late.

TNT should be made something like a novel championship that promotes some sort of rules/themes that can differentiate it from just another mid card championship that every wrestling promotion has.
Like TNA had X Division, they can take that idea and mold it some different strength. Maybe make the matches DQ/no countouts etc or something and bring more intensity to it. So that if and when guys like Mox or Kingston or even Y2J step into TNT picture, it wouldn't feel like a demotion.
I think Wardlow should simply squash Sky and get into a feud with someone like Lee or even a vet like Joe.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

TNT should be made something like a novel championship that promotes some sort of rules/themes that can differentiate it from just another mid card championship that every wrestling promotion has.
Like TNA had X Division, they can take that idea and mold it some different strength. Maybe make the matches DQ/no countouts etc or something and bring more intensity to it. So that if and when guys like Mox or Kingston or even Y2J step into TNT picture, it wouldn't feel like a demotion.
I think Wardlow should simply squash Sky and get into a feud with someone like Lee or even a vet like Joe.

I don't think that would be a great idea. TNA and ROH both tried that idea and it didn't work. X Division was basically another way for them to say say Cruiserweight division. And X Division matches generally tended to have really stupid gimmicks/stips and almost always featured undercard talent, which devalued the belt.

ROH tried something different with the Pure Championship, which was contested under pure rules. That worked for a while, but after a certain point even ROH unified that belt with their World title.

Problem with doing something like this is that you handicap yourself and turn that belt into a gimmick, which is exactly what TNA did. A midcard belt can be a great way to make new stars. Just look at the rich lineage of the Intercontinental Championship or the United States Heavyweight Championship. But you need to put it on the right people.

I thought they were doing an amazing job with this belt till they had it on Miro. Ever since then though the belt has changed hands 6 times in 6 months. You are not gonna get anyone over with such short title reigns.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Seth has grown immensely since his feud with Bray. He seems like a more battle hardened guy now who is able to retain the heat even after losing his matches. Plus he also has a wrestling school where he is training wrestlers.

As a wrestler he is undoubtedly one of the best workers in the business. But as a character he is cringeworthy and difficult to take seriously. He looks like a complete fool walking out with those flamboyant suits, OTT mannerisms and general cartoonishness.

Seth is far from a great promo. But he is still a pretty good babyface who has the ability to get the crowd behind him organically. Its been 3 years since that Hell in A Cell disaster, people have moved on. I think its high-time they turned Rollins back face.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It's pretty awful how WWE have been treating their own shows as low tier by handicapping them without their big names. I think they are simply telling us to only get excited for MITB, RR, SS, Survivor Series and Mania which is pathetic.

You never know, they might start treating MITB like a dreaded step-child too seeing how MITB couldn't draw them a stadium crowd, and made them look like fools when they had to shift the PPV from a 65k stadium to a 17k arena.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

As a wrestler he is undoubtedly one of the best workers in the business. But as a character he is cringeworthy and difficult to take seriously. He looks like a complete fool walking out with those flamboyant suits, OTT mannerisms and general cartoonishness.

Seth is far from a great promo. But he is still a pretty good babyface who has the ability to get the crowd behind him organically. Its been 3 years since that Hell in A Cell disaster, people have moved on. I think its high-time they turned Rollins back face.

I liked Seth's 2017-19 face run. But I heard they were unhappy with the house show sales during his 2019 run as the champ. Although I believe WWE booked Seth awfully during his run then and should take the blame themselves for that. First they booked him into a lengthy boring feud with Corbin and Lacey Evans, then they took the belt off him and put it back on him after a month.
It is said even during Roman's 2015-18 run as the awful face, the house shows sales were better and kids who make up the overwhelming majority of fanbase loved him even back then.

 

[shaz619]

Paul E is good for certain tyles of matches. But I don't think this match needed that kind of Paul E booking. Where its big move, big move, take a breather, big move again. That kind of booking works best for WWE main-event matches where you have big, imposing dudes like Brock, Goldberg, Reigns, Lashley. But in the case of these guys you needed them to go out and have a proper wrestling match. And eventhough it was far from perfect from an execution stand-point I thought it blew the Mania main-event out of the water which for me was really underwhelming (after 10+ months of build) and not too different from just about every other Reigns/Lesnar match.

Is DoN AEW's flagship PPV? Because I've heard from alot of people that its All Out. Which wouldn't surprise me since its based off All In, which was the genesis of AEW. But then again, DoN was their first actual PPV.

I’d strong disagree with that, I know more are familiar with Paul and his input on how the matches should be booked involving the imposing guys when they allow him, I doubt firstly he’d approach in that context but there’d be some tweaks, we also forget what a genius he’s creatively, outside the hardcore shtick ECW provided the platform for showcasing technical wrestling at the top of the card to during a time when this had little exposure in north america but he bought in guys like Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko and Eddie Guerrero, also inventing the 3 way dance (much prefer it to its variant triple threat). Ignoring the 90’s, as the lead booker on SD which was regarded as the B show he beat RAW during what I think was SD’s greatest generation with the booking of Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge, Chavo Guerrero, Eddie Guerrero, and Rey Mysterio Jnr. And even excusing that he has a close relationship with Punk and safe to say his input would be invaluable.

Yeah DON is their flagship as it were the first PPV they ever done, but it didn’t feel like a marquee event personally with their build.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] Btw have you guys seen the card for Hell in A Cell? Surely I can't be the only one who is not particualrly excited for this PPV.

The only match that I am looking forward to is Cody v Seth inside the cage. And even that match, we all know is going to end with Cody going over somehow.

Austin Theory vs Mustafa Ali could be good if they actually get some time. But other than that its hard to get excited for anything here and again, it doesn't seem like any effort has been put into making this show must-see.

Last time around atleast you had the star-power of Reigns, McIntyre, Charlotte, Orton and Rousey on the card. This time none of them are featured on the show.

Not seen it but I tend to watch select matches these days regardless, if there are two matches that excite me across any promotion then that tends to be a great PPV, generally it’s probably just the main event now. Maybe Cody and Seth are headlining, great opportunity for Cody who has been presented as a star thus far and tasked to sell tickets at house shows to

 

[shaz619]

Upon careful reflection I would probably go 4/5 for Punk v Page. Like I said, it was far from perfect. But it still had a big fight feel and I do think that despite the botches, both guys worked really hard and had a really good wrestling match. And it wasn't like there wasn't anything to the match. It did have a story and flowed fairly well. But undoubtedly it should have been significantly better given the skill-level and talent of both of these competitors.

As far as the botches are concerned, I actually thought Page did a pretty good job levelling almost immediately after Punk after he missed the first Buckshot. My problem was withy the second one, which looked awful, and the superplex spot where Page slipped and that kinda effed up the whole spot because it was supposed to be a quickfire superplex as opposed to the kind of superplex we usually see where both guys are openly cooperating.

They tried their best but it wasn’t good enough to be a main event worthy match in my view. The other thing this match suffered from is a poor build and how bland Page is as a face but it was a face v face match to so can’t blame him much, they did their finishing moves or whatever but that wasn’t much of a story, did I miss anything beyond that? even without the botches I feel they could be better. Page is fantastic in the ring even with his horrible run I thought this guy can work at least and he did amazing to cover up that first botch, the second one was indeed the drizzling crap, I didn’t mind the superplex one as much because slips happen and at first thought this must be what the IWC are crying about lol

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I’d strong disagree with that, I know more are familiar with Paul and his input on how the matches should be booked involving the imposing guys when they allow him, I doubt firstly he’d approach in that context but there’d be some tweaks, we also forget what a genius he’s creatively, outside the hardcore shtick ECW provided the platform for showcasing technical wrestling at the top of the card to during a time when this had little exposure in north america but he bought in guys like Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko and Eddie Guerrero, also inventing the 3 way dance (much prefer it to its variant triple threat). Ignoring the 90’s, as the lead booker on SD which was regarded as the B show he beat RAW during what I think was SD’s greatest generation with the booking of Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge, Chavo Guerrero, Eddie Guerrero, and Rey Mysterio Jnr. And even excusing that he has a close relationship with Punk and safe to say his input would be invaluable.

Yeah DON is their flagship as it were the first PPV they ever done, but it didn’t feel like a marquee event personally with their build.

I thought you were alluding to the kind of booking he tends to do these days with big guy main event matches. But yeah, no disagreements there. He is a great booker and although people look at ECW far too fondly than it deserves credit for, Paul did show precisely what he could do with top-level talent when he was booking SmackDown during that 2002-03 period...the so-called 'SmackDown Six' era. SmackDown in general from mid 2002 to about 2004 is probably one of the best wrestling shows ever.

But I don't think he will be going to AEW anytime soon based on the money he is making in WWE and based on how close he is with Roman and Brock. Both guys are basically Vince's two biggest stars and both guys trust Paul E completely, which means Vince probably understands his value aswell and won't let him go that easy this time.

I don't know if I agree with that. The main-event definitely lacked build-up. But I didn't feel the same way about most other matches on the card. Wardlow v MJF in particular was built to perfection and the pay-off was absolutely perfect as well. As much as I hate that House of Black gimmick and their feud with Death Triangle, even that has been going on for months. Ditto for Jericho-Kingston.

Undoubtedly, the PPV was not on the level of their last three PPVs, which were A+ Grade PPVs. In certain respects it was disappointing aswell. But personally speaking, I would still take this over 70% of the PPVs that WWE does in any given year. Atleast they made an effort. I'd rather see someone try and fail, rather than watch a show where I only get one or two good matches and have to fast-forward through 50 video packages.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

They tried their best but it wasn’t good enough to be a main event worthy match in my view. The other thing this match suffered from is a poor build and how bland Page is as a face but it was a face v face match to so can’t blame him much, they did their finishing moves or whatever but that wasn’t much of a story, did I miss anything beyond that? even without the botches I feel they could be better. Page is fantastic in the ring even with his horrible run I thought this guy can work at least and he did amazing to cover up that first botch, the second one was indeed the drizzling crap, I didn’t mind the superplex one as much because slips happen and at first thought this must be what the IWC are crying about lol

Agree to disagree I guess. The botches are hard to ignore but personally I enjoyed the wrestling and thought both guys worked hard to put on a pretty good match.

They could have made a proper star out of Page but they badly screwed up with his booking. His first few months as champion were great. He was cutting good promos and had put on some of the best matches in the company's history with Omega and Bryan. Since he finished that feud with Bryan though, its been all downhill. And now its hard to look back at his title reign as much of a success.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I liked Seth's 2017-19 face run. But I heard they were unhappy with the house show sales during his 2019 run as the champ. Although I believe WWE booked Seth awfully during his run then and should take the blame themselves for that. First they booked him into a lengthy boring feud with Corbin and Lacey Evans, then they took the belt off him and put it back on him after a month.
It is said even during Roman's 2015-18 run as the awful face, the house shows sales were better and kids who make up the overwhelming majority of fanbase loved him even back then.

Honestly 99% of the time they are talking out of their a** and don't have any idea what they are talking about.

The simple fact is that they have no idea how to book babyfaces. Its a recurring theme. Just look at their booking in recent years of guys like Reigns, Dean Ambrose, Rollins, Drew, Big E, and now Lashley. I mean these guys were/are supposed to be top guys. And what's happened since the whole Daniel Bryan saga from 2014 is that they have got it in their heads that the only way to get a babyface over is by absolutely beating him to powder and creating every kind of hurdle that you can create in his way. That's the biggest reason why we got that Roman Reigns face run. They don't realize though that Bryan was unique and got over because the fans genuinely loved him and wanted him to succeed.

If they are hot on a guy, they will push him. If they eff up and ruin his momentum or just go cold on him, they will say: 'oh house show numbers are down' therefore obviously XYZ is not drawing as champion'.

Btw, where was this same critical analysis from them a few months ago when WWE was struggling to sell-out MSG and they were so desperate to sell tickets that they were basically promoting a house show on RAW.

And as much as I hate the Big Dog's 2015-18 run, the way they ruined Seth's momentum was far more infuriating for me. I mean how can any sane man think that, that finish for The Fiend v Rollins match was going to get anyone over, and not immediately kill Rollins?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I have too much free time on my hands these days, which I have occupied by watching a s**t ton of wrestling. I've already gone through Nitro from 1995-99, and been watching alot of 2002-04 SmackDown! aswell. I tried watching some NWA from the late 80s, but I couldn't quite get into it. One wrestling show that people can't seem to stop talking about, just about everywhere though is Mid-South Wrestling.

I guess my question to you is, have you seen Mid-South or any other wrestling show from the territory days? Also, what according to you are some wrestling shows that I should watch? Can be from any era.

Keep in mind, that I am not a big fan of Attitude Era WWE, and have seen pretty much everything from the Ruthless Aggression Era onwards. Also, not a fan of ECW which has aged horribly imo. And WCW, which I loved; I have pretty much gone through the best and worst years of.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] One a completely different note, what is you opinion of Eric Bischoff?

Every now and then when I'm browsing through YouTube, I find myself clicking on some of the clips from his podcast and it astounds me how full of s**t he is. As someone who went back and watched WCW fairly closely, I see Bischoff as the biggest culprit behind WCW's fall from grace, which eventually set the stage for their extinction.

It amazes me how good Nitro was in 1996 and even all the way till 1997-98. In 96' particularly it was so far ahead of anything that was being done in wrestling. And then from Starrcade 1997 onwards it was just f**k up after f**k up, bad idea after bad idea.

People love to blame Hogan, Nash etc. They were politicians, but none of them could have had the power or influence they had if Bischoff actually ran a tight ship, had a clear direction or vision in place and didn't give them everything they possibly could have asked for when they signed with WCW.

And when I hear him spin some of the things he did in WCW, like taking off Mysterio's mash, letting Hogan influence the Starrcade 97 finish, the fingerpoke of doom, giving away the results to RAW live on-air...it really infuriates me.

Russo may be the biggest con-man in wrestling, but surely this idiot is not far behind, right?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Honestly 99% of the time they are talking out of their a** and don't have any idea what they are talking about.

The simple fact is that they have no idea how to book babyfaces. Its a recurring theme. Just look at their booking in recent years of guys like Reigns, Dean Ambrose, Rollins, Drew, Big E, and now Lashley. I mean these guys were/are supposed to be top guys. And what's happened since the whole Daniel Bryan saga from 2014 is that they have got it in their heads that the only way to get a babyface over is by absolutely beating him to powder and creating every kind of hurdle that you can create in his way. That's the biggest reason why we got that Roman Reigns face run. They don't realize though that Bryan was unique and got over because the fans genuinely loved him and wanted him to succeed.

If they are hot on a guy, they will push him. If they eff up and ruin his momentum or just go cold on him, they will say: 'oh house show numbers are down' therefore obviously XYZ is not drawing as champion'.

Btw, where was this same critical analysis from them a few months ago when WWE was struggling to sell-out MSG and they were so desperate to sell tickets that they were basically promoting a house show on RAW.

And as much as I hate the Big Dog's 2015-18 run, the way they ruined Seth's momentum was far more infuriating for me. I mean how can any sane man think that, that finish for The Fiend v Rollins match was going to get anyone over, and not immediately kill Rollins?

Yup I agree Seth got the hard end of the stick there. That feud with Bray was god awful. I actually liked the conniving shrewd brief face run of Seth's during his feud with Roman this year leading to Royal Rumble. He played his role very well there I think.

I think Drew is the only one on that list who was given a bigger rope and was booked relatively better than the other faces. But they screwed it up after having him lose to Randy only to win it 2 weeks later and then having his gimmick tweaked with the scottish skirt and a sword and booking that terrible storyline with Miz trying to sneak in with the MITB.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] One a completely different note, what is you opinion of Eric Bischoff?

Every now and then when I'm browsing through YouTube, I find myself clicking on some of the clips from his podcast and it astounds me how full of s**t he is. As someone who went back and watched WCW fairly closely, I see Bischoff as the biggest culprit behind WCW's fall from grace, which eventually set the stage for their extinction.

It amazes me how good Nitro was in 1996 and even all the way till 1997-98. In 96' particularly it was so far ahead of anything that was being done in wrestling. And then from Starrcade 1997 onwards it was just f**k up after f**k up, bad idea after bad idea.

People love to blame Hogan, Nash etc. They were politicians, but none of them could have had the power or influence they had if Bischoff actually ran a tight ship, had a clear direction or vision in place and didn't give them everything they possibly could have asked for when they signed with WCW.

And when I hear him spin some of the things he did in WCW, like taking off Mysterio's mash, letting Hogan influence the Starrcade 97 finish, the fingerpoke of doom, giving away the results to RAW live on-air...it really infuriates me.

Russo may be the biggest con-man in wrestling, but surely this idiot is not far behind, right?

I think Hogan, Nash and Hall's contract had a big part in it. From what I've heard, they had a clause that if WCW signed a new guy and got a contract bigger than theirs, then their pay would automatically increase to equal the new person's. Plus there was creative control clauses and other stuff which Hogan exploited freely. But then it was Bischoff himself who agreed on that contract. I guess it shows how much better of a businessman and booker Vince was as he was able to put up with Hogan's ego and not let it derail his company to the extent Bischoff let his'.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I have too much free time on my hands these days, which I have occupied by watching a s**t ton of wrestling. I've already gone through Nitro from 1995-99, and been watching alot of 2002-04 SmackDown! aswell. I tried watching some NWA from the late 80s, but I couldn't quite get into it. One wrestling show that people can't seem to stop talking about, just about everywhere though is Mid-South Wrestling.

I guess my question to you is, have you seen Mid-South or any other wrestling show from the territory days? Also, what according to you are some wrestling shows that I should watch? Can be from any era.

Keep in mind, that I am not a big fan of Attitude Era WWE, and have seen pretty much everything from the Ruthless Aggression Era onwards. Also, not a fan of ECW which has aged horribly imo. And WCW, which I loved; I have pretty much gone through the best and worst years of.

Check out Southpaw regional wrestling. It only has a few episodes but I weirdly found it pretty entertaining.
Plus if you're interested in wrestling based movies, Ready To Rumble is a guilty pleasure of mine for everything so over the top.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yup I agree Seth got the hard end of the stick there. That feud with Bray was god awful. I actually liked the conniving shrewd brief face run of Seth's during his feud with Roman this year leading to Royal Rumble. He played his role very well there I think.

I think Drew is the only one on that list who was given a bigger rope and was booked relatively better than the other faces. But they screwed it up after having him lose to Randy only to win it 2 weeks later and then having his gimmick tweaked with the scottish skirt and a sword and booking that terrible storyline with Miz trying to sneak in with the MITB.

I think the level at which Roman Reigns was despised by the fans back then probably had something to do with it aswell. But personally I liked his 2017 face run aswell when he came back from injury and was incredibly over with the crowd. Hopefully the next time he feuds with Roman, he is a babyface.

All that stuff was pretty bad but I think what absolutely ruined Drew as a babyface was that Lashley feud. That was a classical example in how they book a babyface. I get that they wanted to get Lashley over big. But what I don't understand is why they completely destroyed Drew in the process? Drew lost to Lashley twice, but the worst thing about it was that they tried to project that Drew was screwed. When in actuality what happened was that at WrestleMania MVP literally jumped on the apron during the match and was like "Hey Drew"...Drew got distracted and in the process Lashley hit him with his finish and pinned him.

When I saw this I didn't think: 'oh man, poor Drew got screwed', I thought: 'what an idiot!' Here he is wrestling for the World title at WrestleMania and he gets distracted by a guy jumping on the apron and calling his name? I saw this as incompetence, rather than him being dealt a bad hand. And I'm pretty sure alot of other rational minded fans thought the same thing.

Then they a return match at HIAC where they again wanted us to see Drew as a down on his luck babyface who got screwed by the dastardly heel, when in actuality the dastardly heel simply outsmarted him by utilizing the No-DQ rules to his advantage more...something his competitor [Drew] did not do.

And then people question why they barely have any stars these days. Maybe if they tried booking some of these guys like stars something would change. But I guess that's too much to ask if you name isn't Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Hogan, Nash and Hall's contract had a big part in it. From what I've heard, they had a clause that if WCW signed a new guy and got a contract bigger than theirs, then their pay would automatically increase to equal the new person's. Plus there was creative control clauses and other stuff which Hogan exploited freely. But then it was Bischoff himself who agreed on that contract. I guess it shows how much better of a businessman and booker Vince was as he was able to put up with Hogan's ego and not let it derail his company to the extent Bischoff let his'.

That's what I was alluding to. Personally, I don't care about the salary bump they got whenever someone new came in. Or even the money they made through other stuff. Like Hogan for instance got a percentage of the freaking PPV revenue every month!

What really angered me instead was the creative control clause that Bischoff gave to Hogan. Which was basically a way for Hogan to ensure that no matter what he was always on-top. Because he was almost always on-top, he was always involved in major storylines. And if he didn't like any of these storylines he could just not do them. So Hogan was essentially influencing WCW's creative direction for 5+ years eventhough he was just a talent. Nash did some pretty egregious stuff aswell when he politicked his way into the head booker position, but it was nothing compared to Hogan's toxic influence. And the only reason all of this was allowed to happen was Eric Bischoff.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Check out Southpaw regional wrestling. It only has a few episodes but I weirdly found it pretty entertaining.
Plus if you're interested in wrestling based movies, Ready To Rumble is a guilty pleasure of mine for everything so over the top.

Saw it years back.

I've seen Ready to Rumble aswell. And ngl that movie is a guilty pleasure of mine aswell. Eventhough I fully realize that it is a terrible movie and that it led to one of the absolute worst things in the history of wrestling which was David Arquette as World Champion.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Saw it years back.

I've seen Ready to Rumble aswell. And ngl that movie is a guilty pleasure of mine aswell. Eventhough I fully realize that it is a terrible movie and that it led to one of the absolute worst things in the history of wrestling which was David Arquette as World Champion.

Well i have soft spot for David Arquette. He didn't like the angle himself but Russo was hell bent on doing it.
I guess the movie could have easily become better if they had chosen someone other than DDP as the antagonist and the role of Oliver Platt by some wrestler.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That's what I was alluding to. Personally, I don't care about the salary bump they got whenever someone new came in. Or even the money they made through other stuff. Like Hogan for instance got a percentage of the freaking PPV revenue every month!

What really angered me instead was the creative control clause that Bischoff gave to Hogan. Which was basically a way for Hogan to ensure that no matter what he was always on-top. Because he was almost always on-top, he was always involved in major storylines. And if he didn't like any of these storylines he could just not do them. So Hogan was essentially influencing WCW's creative direction for 5+ years eventhough he was just a talent. Nash did some pretty egregious stuff aswell when he politicked his way into the head booker position, but it was nothing compared to Hogan's toxic influence. And the only reason all of this was allowed to happen was Eric Bischoff.

Bischoff had a honeymoon period during which he got real successful but was brought down during the tough times he brought upon himself. He wasn't shrewd or good enough to weather that period and bring fresh ideas to rejuvenate WCW. Although I do agree his current criticism of AEW is solely to get views for his podcast.

On the other hand, I wouldn't call Tony Khan as great wrestling businessman either. AEW is running solely because of the money Tony is able to spend on it. His real test will be when he will start getting a limited money to spend on AEW.

Hogan destroyed WCW and TNA through his influence. Kudos to Vince for being able to control the situation. It's great that Hogan is out of the limelight now and very much reduced to a peripheral figure with most of the praise going towards the likes of Austin, Rock, Taker, Andre etc instead. The world got to see his true colors.

Dwayne said regarding his Mania 18 match against Hogan that even though he had been told he was going to win but he wasn't sure if he actually would. Said he was expecting a change to the finish during the match. Stopped short of naming Hogan.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think the level at which Roman Reigns was despised by the fans back then probably had something to do with it aswell. But personally I liked his 2017 face run aswell when he came back from injury and was incredibly over with the crowd. Hopefully the next time he feuds with Roman, he is a babyface.

All that stuff was pretty bad but I think what absolutely ruined Drew as a babyface was that Lashley feud. That was a classical example in how they book a babyface. I get that they wanted to get Lashley over big. But what I don't understand is why they completely destroyed Drew in the process? Drew lost to Lashley twice, but the worst thing about it was that they tried to project that Drew was screwed. When in actuality what happened was that at WrestleMania MVP literally jumped on the apron during the match and was like "Hey Drew"...Drew got distracted and in the process Lashley hit him with his finish and pinned him.

When I saw this I didn't think: 'oh man, poor Drew got screwed', I thought: 'what an idiot!' Here he is wrestling for the World title at WrestleMania and he gets distracted by a guy jumping on the apron and calling his name? I saw this as incompetence, rather than him being dealt a bad hand. And I'm pretty sure alot of other rational minded fans thought the same thing.

Then they a return match at HIAC where they again wanted us to see Drew as a down on his luck babyface who got screwed by the dastardly heel, when in actuality the dastardly heel simply outsmarted him by utilizing the No-DQ rules to his advantage more...something his competitor [Drew] did not do.

And then people question why they barely have any stars these days. Maybe if they tried booking some of these guys like stars something would change. But I guess that's too much to ask if you name isn't Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar.

In my opinion, even if Drew had to lose to Lashley, they should have booked Lashley as a dominant champion whether heel or face. Lashley being positioned as the top guy then and being projected as a big strong guy who couldn't win matches on his own was a case of double awful booking which undermined both Drew and Lashley. I think some of that also has to do with Lashley's limitations as a wrestler. Like I have never been invested in a Lashley match. It's just power moves, rest holds etc.

I think the original plan was for Drew to win the title at Mania but Vince would have had thought nah I'd rather have Lashley win at the last moment seeing the coverage it was garnering during the Black History month for being the 3rd African American Champ in WWE. But Drew's feud with Miz and then Lashley's championship reign both were awful.

 

[shaz619]

I thought you were alluding to the kind of booking he tends to do these days with big guy main event matches. But yeah, no disagreements there. He is a great booker and although people look at ECW far too fondly than it deserves credit for, Paul did show precisely what he could do with top-level talent when he was booking SmackDown during that 2002-03 period...the so-called 'SmackDown Six' era. SmackDown in general from mid 2002 to about 2004 is probably one of the best wrestling shows ever.

But I don't think he will be going to AEW anytime soon based on the money he is making in WWE and based on how close he is with Roman and Brock. Both guys are basically Vince's two biggest stars and both guys trust Paul E completely, which means Vince probably understands his value aswell and won't let him go that easy this time.

I don't know if I agree with that. The main-event definitely lacked build-up. But I didn't feel the same way about most other matches on the card. Wardlow v MJF in particular was built to perfection and the pay-off was absolutely perfect as well. As much as I hate that House of Black gimmick and their feud with Death Triangle, even that has been going on for months. Ditto for Jericho-Kingston.

Undoubtedly, the PPV was not on the level of their last three PPVs, which were A+ Grade PPVs. In certain respects it was disappointing aswell. But personally speaking, I would still take this over 70% of the PPVs that WWE does in any given year. Atleast they made an effort. I'd rather see someone try and fail, rather than watch a show where I only get one or two good matches and have to fast-forward through 50 video packages.

In a main-event of a long show keeping things simple is best suited regardless of style or performers but Paul is experienced enough to get the best out of any performer and not just on the mic. I can’t comment on the undercard as much, I know they made an effort with the Wardlow match but I couldn’t get into the story I thought it was a bit stupid how Wardlow would just let MJF beat the crap out of him and be his dog because of what it said in their contract lol besides that, even if the rest of the card is weak you want to see the main event deliver both in the build and in the match, the only time I’ve seen an amazing build not deliver in the ring are mostly HHH matches, who has such a low ring IQ and thinks he’s harley race; wanting to put on long winded “clinics” in his eyes with no capacity to adjust to the audience, auto pilot throughout. But yh here the build was crap anyway and the match I know you enjoyed fair enough but I always have high expectations of the main event especially on their flag ship PPV, the E is not consistent but they put a lot into their big 4 and I will rarely see unprofessionalism or avoidable botches in a main event, it has been a while at least from what I’ve been watching. While I pick and choose what to see from both not always seeing one as a vast upgrade over the other, I agree with every word of that MJF promo lol

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] One a completely different note, what is you opinion of Eric Bischoff?

Every now and then when I'm browsing through YouTube, I find myself clicking on some of the clips from his podcast and it astounds me how full of s**t he is. As someone who went back and watched WCW fairly closely, I see Bischoff as the biggest culprit behind WCW's fall from grace, which eventually set the stage for their extinction.

It amazes me how good Nitro was in 1996 and even all the way till 1997-98. In 96' particularly it was so far ahead of anything that was being done in wrestling. And then from Starrcade 1997 onwards it was just f**k up after f**k up, bad idea after bad idea.

People love to blame Hogan, Nash etc. They were politicians, but none of them could have had the power or influence they had if Bischoff actually ran a tight ship, had a clear direction or vision in place and didn't give them everything they possibly could have asked for when they signed with WCW.

And when I hear him spin some of the things he did in WCW, like taking off Mysterio's mash, letting Hogan influence the Starrcade 97 finish, the fingerpoke of doom, giving away the results to RAW live on-air...it really infuriates me.

Russo may be the biggest con-man in wrestling, but surely this idiot is not far behind, right?

Russo was basically throw every dump at the wall and see what sticks, he worked with the WWF well before the AE era and he had some good ideas, under a more professional set up, Vince could filter out all the nonsense for the most part but in an asylum that was WCW he was going to be a big recipe for disaster. I don’t like Eric at all, I totally agree that he is the main culprit giving the top stars so much creative control and especially to someone like Russo as well, I wont ever forgive him for how he treated Ric and while I strongly dislike HHH, I will always respect him (also Taker) for helping Ric regain his confidence. If I have anything positive to say about Eric it’s probably his GM run on RAW, arguably the best on-screen manager they ever had

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I have too much free time on my hands these days, which I have occupied by watching a s**t ton of wrestling. I've already gone through Nitro from 1995-99, and been watching alot of 2002-04 SmackDown! aswell. I tried watching some NWA from the late 80s, but I couldn't quite get into it. One wrestling show that people can't seem to stop talking about, just about everywhere though is Mid-South Wrestling.

I guess my question to you is, have you seen Mid-South or any other wrestling show from the territory days? Also, what according to you are some wrestling shows that I should watch? Can be from any era.

Keep in mind, that I am not a big fan of Attitude Era WWE, and have seen pretty much everything from the Ruthless Aggression Era onwards. Also, not a fan of ECW which has aged horribly imo. And WCW, which I loved; I have pretty much gone through the best and worst years of.

With those shows not sure you’d be a fan of because in those days less was always more and fans were not desensitised to seeing so many moves but they did go all out on PPV / made fans pay for the action, they focused a great deal on psychology and technique; two areas which I feel Bret was able to master even in the modern era which I feel his style of working is arguably the greatest ever, just at look at the technique of a Bret Hart suplex the guy could make any move look viscous. But yh in those days something like a nasty looking back breaker could end a match so if you watch the shows, I would say fast forward to promos on Jim Crocket promotions and then watch the main event of the PPV, would recommend a Flair for the Gold at Starccade I think it was the most important match in Flair’s career and a big test. Watch the Flair/Steamboat trilogy, many stereotypes from that period will be dealt with, any matches involving Flair and Terry Funk, I tend to find out which shows their feud started on to follow the build and even without it the matches are still incredible.

For something more regular with the territory style and relevant to today I would one million percent recommend NWA Powerr, the episodes are a breeze on youtube, the matches are fairly straight forward they have the old school commentary which was amazing while Jim managed to last there lol and the promos I really enjoyed the studio wrestling vibe which was very popular, plus you will get to see some of your favourites which Tony managed to steal like Eddie Kingston and Thunder Rosa, I stopped watching sadly when Covid impacted them so not sure what it’s like now but a good wrestling time pass / alternative

 

[shaz619]

Summer of MJF, this has to be the storyline to go through with Punk assuming the role of Cena? lol Anyhow, it’s interesting where they go with this because Punk has just become champion and MJF is super hot, both need the title for different reasons

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In a main-event of a long show keeping things simple is best suited regardless of style or performers but Paul is experienced enough to get the best out of any performer and not just on the mic. I can’t comment on the undercard as much, I know they made an effort with the Wardlow match but I couldn’t get into the story I thought it was a bit stupid how Wardlow would just let MJF beat the crap out of him and be his dog because of what it said in their contract lol besides that, even if the rest of the card is weak you want to see the main event deliver both in the build and in the match, the only time I’ve seen an amazing build not deliver in the ring are mostly HHH matches, who has such a low ring IQ and thinks he’s harley race; wanting to put on long winded “clinics” in his eyes with no capacity to adjust to the audience, auto pilot throughout. But yh here the build was crap anyway and the match I know you enjoyed fair enough but I always have high expectations of the main event especially on their flag ship PPV, the E is not consistent but they put a lot into their big 4 and I will rarely see unprofessionalism or avoidable botches in a main event, it has been a while at least from what I’ve been watching. While I pick and choose what to see from both not always seeing one as a vast upgrade over the other, I agree with every word of that MJF promo lol

I disagree on the Wardlow bit. I think that if you had followed the angle week to week, you might have a different opinion on it. At the end of the day, its pro-wrestling and there has to be a level of suspension of disbelief, but keeping that in mind almost everything about that angle was executed logically and made sense. And with the match too, they paid off 2 years worth of story in that one squash match. Even Cornette who tends to hate most of what AEW does agreed that, that angle was executed beautifully.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

With those shows not sure you’d be a fan of because in those days less was always more and fans were not desensitised to seeing so many moves but they did go all out on PPV / made fans pay for the action, they focused a great deal on psychology and technique; two areas which I feel Bret was able to master even in the modern era which I feel his style of working is arguably the greatest ever, just at look at the technique of a Bret Hart suplex the guy could make any move look viscous. But yh in those days something like a nasty looking back breaker could end a match so if you watch the shows, I would say fast forward to promos on Jim Crocket promotions and then watch the main event of the PPV, would recommend a Flair for the Gold at Starccade I think it was the most important match in Flair’s career and a big test. Watch the Flair/Steamboat trilogy, many stereotypes from that period will be dealt with, any matches involving Flair and Terry Funk, I tend to find out which shows their feud started on to follow the build and even without it the matches are still incredible.

For something more regular with the territory style and relevant to today I would one million percent recommend NWA Powerr, the episodes are a breeze on youtube, the matches are fairly straight forward they have the old school commentary which was amazing while Jim managed to last there lol and the promos I really enjoyed the studio wrestling vibe which was very popular, plus you will get to see some of your favourites which Tony managed to steal like Eddie Kingston and Thunder Rosa, I stopped watching sadly when Covid impacted them so not sure what it’s like now but a good wrestling time pass / alternative

Thanks man. Appreciate it greatly. I'll definitely give this stuff a look.

Heard alot about NWA Powerr but never got down to actually seeing it previously. But I'll definitely give it a look.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Summer of MJF, this has to be the storyline to go through with Punk assuming the role of Cena? lol Anyhow, it’s interesting where they go with this because Punk has just become champion and MJF is super hot, both need the title for different reasons

That's immediately what I thought when someone online said that Punk came out to talk to him after his promo, but MJF disappeared through the crowd.

This could be an amazing storyline if that's what they are planning down the line. I just hope though that Punk getting injured does not impact these plans too negatively.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what did you think of the MJF promo? Personally I think its one of those promos that people will talk about years from now, like the Punk pipebomb...and precisely for the same reasons. Because almost everything that MJF said had some level of truth to it.

Ofcourse the hardcore marks are angry. Because MJF essentially buried them and everyone they like in one fell swoop. Meltzer was trying to mask his anger over the fact that his buddies were insulted by trying to sound like an "intellectual" and comparing the promo to when WCW buried talent through "shoot angles"....which is such a preposterous thing to say. He was even alluding to how its the "Cornette material" that MJF is saying, as if other wrestling fans are incapable of seeing AEW's flaws unless they are told so by a podcast.

So Meltzer has lost whatever credibility he had left, in my eyes.

Personally, I think this was something really different, smart and something that felt entuned with modern day wrestling where the fans (atleast with this promotion) do know/see/listen to everything. It also blurred the lines between reality and fiction, which is always where pro-wrestling is at its best.

I think credit has to be given to MJF (obviously) who came up with this stuff, but also Tony Khan who allowed him to just go out there and bury not just him but his entire roster and show, and even drop the F bomb... which I was kinda shocked to hear initially since it wasn't bleeped out on my feed. And this was a far bigger burial of the promoter than Punk's burial of Vince in the pipebomb.

And some people are just so stupid. It's not like Punk or some other babyface won't respond to everything MJF said eventually. If anything, MJF's promo provides Punk or another babyface with the opportunity to come out and say look, we're not perfect but we as a company have these positives, like any babyface would.

But ofc the hardcore marks are pretending like this is the full stop. That nothing will happen to progress this storyline further, which is so stupid. Especially from someone like Meltzer who has been following this business since seemingly the dawn of time.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Russo was basically throw every dump at the wall and see what sticks, he worked with the WWF well before the AE era and he had some good ideas, under a more professional set up, Vince could filter out all the nonsense for the most part but in an asylum that was WCW he was going to be a big recipe for disaster. I don’t like Eric at all, I totally agree that he is the main culprit giving the top stars so much creative control and especially to someone like Russo as well, I wont ever forgive him for how he treated Ric and while I strongly dislike HHH, I will always respect him (also Taker) for helping Ric regain his confidence. If I have anything positive to say about Eric it’s probably his GM run on RAW, arguably the best on-screen manager they ever had

I'll give him that. He was a great on-screen personality in WWE and WCW. But like you, I especially loved the him as the RAW GM.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well i have soft spot for David Arquette. He didn't like the angle himself but Russo was hell bent on doing it.
I guess the movie could have easily become better if they had chosen someone other than DDP as the antagonist and the role of Oliver Platt by some wrestler.

I'd recommend you to check out the documentary: 'You Cannot Kill David Arquette'. Its a really compelling wrestling documentary based on recent events. Apparently Arquette started wrestling on the indies a few years ago inorder to prove the haters wrong some 20 or so years later after becoming the WCW World Heavyweight Champion. Certain parts of it are somewhat depressing, other parts are quite interesting and compelling. Its definitely a film I would recommend to wrestling fans either way.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

Seen it. He donated all of the money he made from it to charity.

The thing is the so called hardcore wrestling fans are irrational and toxic. They just believe their opinion is the right one and whoever disagrees with them, they abuse him. Around the 2004-08, this sort of fan base had declined heavily and was reduced to a few indies. One reason I am not a fan of Phil Brookes the person is he was one of the guys who brought that me against the world mindset and fans got behind him. He still believes in the same thing regardless of whether he is right or wrong.

Then around the time of All in and AEW inception, Cody, Bucks and Kenny started the tribalism of wwe vs aew and imbecile fans bought into that nonsense. Now there are so called fans on the both sides who are hell bent on imposing their views on others otherwise they resort to abuse. These fans behave as if they are going to inherit WWE and AEW.

 

[shaz619]

I disagree on the Wardlow bit. I think that if you had followed the angle week to week, you might have a different opinion on it. At the end of the day, its pro-wrestling and there has to be a level of suspension of disbelief, but keeping that in mind almost everything about that angle was executed logically and made sense. And with the match too, they paid off 2 years worth of story in that one squash match. Even Cornette who tends to hate most of what AEW does agreed that, that angle was executed beautifully.

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what did you think of the MJF promo? Personally I think its one of those promos that people will talk about years from now, like the Punk pipebomb...and precisely for the same reasons. Because almost everything that MJF said had some level of truth to it.

Ofcourse the hardcore marks are angry. Because MJF essentially buried them and everyone they like in one fell swoop. Meltzer was trying to mask his anger over the fact that his buddies were insulted by trying to sound like an "intellectual" and comparing the promo to when WCW buried talent through "shoot angles"....which is such a preposterous thing to say. He was even alluding to how its the "Cornette material" that MJF is saying, as if other wrestling fans are incapable of seeing AEW's flaws unless they are told so by a podcast.

So Meltzer has lost whatever credibility he had left, in my eyes.

Personally, I think this was something really different, smart and something that felt entuned with modern day wrestling where the fans (atleast with this promotion) do know/see/listen to everything. It also blurred the lines between reality and fiction, which is always where pro-wrestling is at its best.

I think credit has to be given to MJF (obviously) who came up with this stuff, but also Tony Khan who allowed him to just go out there and bury not just him but his entire roster and show, and even drop the F bomb... which I was kinda shocked to hear initially since it wasn't bleeped out on my feed. And this was a far bigger burial of the promoter than Punk's burial of Vince in the pipebomb.

And some people are just so stupid. It's not like Punk or some other babyface won't respond to everything MJF said eventually. If anything, MJF's promo provides Punk or another babyface with the opportunity to come out and say look, we're not perfect but we as a company have these positives, like any babyface would.

But ofc the hardcore marks are pretending like this is the full stop. That nothing will happen to progress this storyline further, which is so stupid. Especially from someone like Meltzer who has been following this business since seemingly the dawn of time.

More then the rest of the card I tried my best to follow the Wardlow stuff and I watched it a lot more then anything else apart from main event build despite MJF’s brilliant execution, don’t get me wrong the subtle seeds of discomfort they planted during his feud with Punk were great but I couldn’t get into this angle and Wardlow as a performer am not as big a fan of his work, the pay off at the PPV was the correct decision though.

I thought the promo from this week by MJF was brilliant in conveying whatever has been reported in the media surrounding his contract and the tension backstage. I can’t believe Dave said that but as I have always said, I feel like this is someone else and not the reporter from decades past, he is an old yeller but put that in a bowl with his present day friendships with talent and his output tends to be truly shocking so I don’t bother with his views anymore, Jim is 10x more objective despite his strong arguments, when we look at figures who have been around forever you look at these two on the reporting side of things and to Jim for perspective we don’t pick up between the ropes, but Dave has truly fallen to new lows really and it all started when he started giving those matches 5* for fun and then taking it further by going over that, if anything Dave’s behaviour is more in line with the WCW hire ups. The hipster smarks are so easy to work and the best thing about MJF is he can work both kayfabe fans and non-kayfabe, apart from maybe the Mizz or Corbin, I don’t think there’s a heel who has done that well enough but no one is on his level with this form and I find it preposterous that nothing would come from this.

With AEW looking for an interim champion, MJF would be perfect for continuity but I don’t know if it lines up with the current plans? and Punk / MJF has to be the end game at some point for the title and they need to let that brew for a bit but this angle is so hot right now

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

Seen it. He donated all of the money he made from it to charity.

The thing is the so called hardcore wrestling fans are irrational and toxic. They just believe their opinion is the right one and whoever disagrees with them, they abuse him. Around the 2004-08, this sort of fan base had declined heavily and was reduced to a few indies. One reason I am not a fan of Phil Brookes the person is he was one of the guys who brought that me against the world mindset and fans got behind him. He still believes in the same thing regardless of whether he is right or wrong.

Then around the time of All in and AEW inception, Cody, Bucks and Kenny started the tribalism of wwe vs aew and imbecile fans bought into that nonsense. Now there are so called fans on the both sides who are hell bent on imposing their views on others otherwise they resort to abuse. These fans behave as if they are going to inherit WWE and AEW.

Personally I don't believe the wrestlers can be blamed for this. At the end of the day, fans of any particular thing are known to be passionate about what they love. Sometimes perhaps too passionate. But that's just how they are.

What's happened in the last decade and a half is that, because wrestling has decreased so significantly in mainstream popularity, the amount of casual viewers has decreased while the amount of dedicated fans has increased. I don't think you can attribute that to a specific person or persons. But 'smart fans' have been around since the 90s. All that's changed now is that social media and the internet have amplified their voices, that were previously restricted to obscure message boards.

Most AEW fans themselves were probably WWE fans not too long ago, who likely got tired of the product and wanted an alternative. So personally, I don't believe that this tribalism exists because of the Bucks, Cody or Punk. It exists because pro-wrestling, like any other thing has fans that are passionate about what they love and what they hate.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

More then the rest of the card I tried my best to follow the Wardlow stuff and I watched it a lot more then anything else apart from main event build despite MJF’s brilliant execution, don’t get me wrong the subtle seeds of discomfort they planted during his feud with Punk were great but I couldn’t get into this angle and Wardlow as a performer am not as big a fan of his work, the pay off at the PPV was the correct decision though.

I thought the promo from this week by MJF was brilliant in conveying whatever has been reported in the media surrounding his contract and the tension backstage. I can’t believe Dave said that but as I have always said, I feel like this is someone else and not the reporter from decades past, he is an old yeller but put that in a bowl with his present day friendships with talent and his output tends to be truly shocking so I don’t bother with his views anymore, Jim is 10x more objective despite his strong arguments, when we look at figures who have been around forever you look at these two on the reporting side of things and to Jim for perspective we don’t pick up between the ropes, but Dave has truly fallen to new lows really and it all started when he started giving those matches 5* for fun and then taking it further by going over that, if anything Dave’s behaviour is more in line with the WCW hire ups. The hipster smarks are so easy to work and the best thing about MJF is he can work both kayfabe fans and non-kayfabe, apart from maybe the Mizz or Corbin, I don’t think there’s a heel who has done that well enough but no one is on his level with this form and I find it preposterous that nothing would come from this.

With AEW looking for an interim champion, MJF would be perfect for continuity but I don’t know if it lines up with the current plans? and Punk / MJF has to be the end game at some point for the title and they need to let that brew for a bit but this angle is so hot right now

Couldn't agree more re: MJF. He just gets it. And I love that he never breaks kayfabe, and is just a terrible person to anyone he interacts with in the public sphere. I truly believe he is one of those select guys who could have been successful in any era of pro-wrestling. I think WALTER would probably be another one. And I say that not just because of who he is as a personality and a promo, but also because his ringwork is so fundamentally and technically sound. He can easily have 25+ years on-top in this industry because he's out there to wrestle and not break his body into a million pieces for a cheap pop.

Dave in my opinion, has internalized this idea that time and the business will pass him by if he doesn't like what the cool kids like. I genuinely believe that he is fearful of being seen as that senile old man who 'doesn't get it' and talks about how good wrestling used to be. Cornette had him on his podcast once (back when they were friends) and they were discussing some of the nonsense that PWG has done in recent years like the invisible bomb schtick...and numerous times Cornette tried to get him to admit that its ridiculous B.S that makes the business look bad, and Dave was like "...but the fans like it".

I think they'll put the interim belt on Moxley, which is not a bad idea imo. I think if MJF when he becomes champion, has to be 'the' champion. Like there should be proper build to that moment. Putting a belt on him that isn't even really his, would diminish that potential future moment. And I would say the same for anyone who isn't Jon Moxley or Adam Page. Because people have seen both them as champions and therefore that image is already in their head. And with Punk bound to eventually come back and beat one them anyway, its better to protect MJF from a loss. Especially if you want to sell a big money PPV match between down the line.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Personally I don't believe the wrestlers can be blamed for this. At the end of the day, fans of any particular thing are known to be passionate about what they love. Sometimes perhaps too passionate. But that's just how they are.

What's happened in the last decade and a half is that, because wrestling has decreased so significantly in mainstream popularity, the amount of casual viewers has decreased while the amount of dedicated fans has increased. I don't think you can attribute that to a specific person or persons. But 'smart fans' have been around since the 90s. All that's changed now is that social media and the internet have amplified their voices, that were previously restricted to obscure message boards.

Most AEW fans themselves were probably WWE fans not too long ago, who likely got tired of the product and wanted an alternative. So personally, I don't believe that this tribalism exists because of the Bucks, Cody or Punk. It exists because pro-wrestling, like any other thing has fans that are passionate about what they love and what they hate.

Agreed to a certain extent. But Cody started All in by destroying a Trips throne with a sledgehammer. Him and Bucks kept saying they aren't competing yet made a daily habit of taking shots at WWE by saying how AEW is real wrestling etc etc.

Social media has actually been pretty bad for pro wrestling business I believe generally. Almost all the surprises get leaked, even finishes of the matches and stuff. Kills the excitement. Like for Mania for Edge vs Styles, it had been leaked that Edge is going to be forming a faction etc etc.
Some few exceptions have been Punk's return to wrestling, Cody redebuting at Mania.

Plus I guess the fans have started to decipher all the patterns as well like how the feud is going to go or where the match is headed etc etc.

I still think majority of the wrestling fanbase is kids. Probably 90% otherwise WWE wouldn't be this profitable. They are able to sign mega deals because of that yet the crowds are more robust in AEW.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Agreed to a certain extent. But Cody started All in by destroying a Trips throne with a sledgehammer. Him and Bucks kept saying they aren't competing yet made a daily habit of taking shots at WWE by saying how AEW is real wrestling etc etc.

Social media has actually been pretty bad for pro wrestling business I believe generally. Almost all the surprises get leaked, even finishes of the matches and stuff. Kills the excitement. Like for Mania for Edge vs Styles, it had been leaked that Edge is going to be forming a faction etc etc.
Some few exceptions have been Punk's return to wrestling, Cody redebuting at Mania.

Plus I guess the fans have started to decipher all the patterns as well like how the feud is going to go or where the match is headed etc etc.

I still think majority of the wrestling fanbase is kids. Probably 90% otherwise WWE wouldn't be this profitable. They are able to sign mega deals because of that yet the crowds are more robust in AEW.

Well to be fair, WWE has gone out of their way to say that they are not wrestling. That they are sports-entertainment. And the reason people (myself included) don't like it is because Vince sees the term pro-wrestling as some kind of a slur that's embarrassing for him and bad for the image and perception of his company. So you can't fault people for thinking WWE is not real wrestling, when they themselves are going out of their way to tell you so.

And thing is, Cody would have never done that thing at Double Or Nothing if he knew the fans wouldn't respond to it. At the end of the day, fans are always going to behave a certain way. If WWE really was so successful in captivating them they wouldn't have been clamoring for an alternative pro-wrestling promotion to come onto the scene. Because fact is the quality of WWE's product has gone down drastically since the mid-2000s.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well to be fair, WWE has gone out of their way to say that they are not wrestling. That they are sports-entertainment. And the reason people (myself included) don't like it is because Vince sees the term pro-wrestling as some kind of a slur that's embarrassing for him and bad for the image and perception of his company. So you can't fault people for thinking WWE is not real wrestling, when they themselves are going out of their way to tell you so.

And thing is, Cody would have never done that thing at Double Or Nothing if he knew the fans wouldn't respond to it. At the end of the day, fans are always going to behave a certain way. If WWE really was so successful in captivating them they wouldn't have been clamoring for an alternative pro-wrestling promotion to come onto the scene. Because fact is the quality of WWE's product has gone down drastically since the mid-2000s.

WWE don't care about the fans. I think everyone knows it. Otherwise they wouldn't base all their shows around 1 or 2 guys. WWE is just a corporation whose interest is only about how much money they generate.
What I am trying to say is AEW on the other hand is simply trying way too hard to project themselves as the "good guys".

 

[Major]

Couldn't agree more re: MJF. He just gets it. And I love that he never breaks kayfabe, and is just a terrible person to anyone he interacts with in the public sphere. I truly believe he is one of those select guys who could have been successful in any era of pro-wrestling. I think WALTER would probably be another one. And I say that not just because of who he is as a personality and a promo, but also because his ringwork is so fundamentally and technically sound. He can easily have 25+ years on-top in this industry because he's out there to wrestle and not break his body into a million pieces for a cheap pop.

Dave in my opinion, has internalized this idea that time and the business will pass him by if he doesn't like what the cool kids like. I genuinely believe that he is fearful of being seen as that senile old man who 'doesn't get it' and talks about how good wrestling used to be. Cornette had him on his podcast once (back when they were friends) and they were discussing some of the nonsense that PWG has done in recent years like the invisible bomb schtick...and numerous times Cornette tried to get him to admit that its ridiculous B.S that makes the business look bad, and Dave was like "...but the fans like it".

I think they'll put the interim belt on Moxley, which is not a bad idea imo. I think if MJF when he becomes champion, has to be 'the' champion. Like there should be proper build to that moment. Putting a belt on him that isn't even really his, would diminish that potential future moment. And I would say the same for anyone who isn't Jon Moxley or Adam Page. Because people have seen both them as champions and therefore that image is already in their head. And with Punk bound to eventually come back and beat one them anyway, its better to protect MJF from a loss. Especially if you want to sell a big money PPV match between down the line.

As a kid i loved watching it. But i used to just casually go around on the tv and if i came accross a wwe match on ten sports i would watch it.

I loved watching rey mysterio matches because his moves were just so good. I loved royal rumble that would be done in the start of the year.

For me wwe was never the thing that one would purchase its pay per view.

I dont understand how has this business survived because it gets tiring watching the same guys have the same fake feuds as you mature.

Its always that fan favourite guy winning. Hated the likes of cena or that yes yes guy......

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

WWE don't care about the fans. I think everyone knows it. Otherwise they wouldn't base all their shows around 1 or 2 guys. WWE is just a corporation whose interest is only about how much money they generate.
What I am trying to say is AEW on the other hand is simply trying way too hard to project themselves as the "good guys".

Yeah but that's the difference right there. Like you said, WWE does not care about their fans, but AEW do. Regardless of what you or I may think of their fans, if there's one thing that AEW can be given credit for its giving their hardcore fanbase what they want. So I don't think they try to hard to project themselves as the "good guys", that's just how they are viewed by their fans.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] did you see Cody vs Rollins at HIAC? That looked so painful. That ecchymosis was real. I had thought Cody only showing up would be something and was not expecting a good wrestling match. But it was one of the realest matches ever and Cody's injury added an altogether different element to it. I am not sure whether I would call Cody here brave or foolish. But this match was so much better than the blade jobs and thumbtacks ** wrestlers these days put up to call themselves hardcore wrestlers. (note to Nick Gage)

Plus I also consider Mick Foley to be sort of an idiot for putting his body through so much through the uncheckered and unregulated years of 90s wrestling industry. The kind of stuff he did without much precautions along with majority of ECW especially Sabu and Dreamer would not happen on TV currently.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

As a kid i loved watching it. But i used to just casually go around on the tv and if i came accross a wwe match on ten sports i would watch it.

I loved watching rey mysterio matches because his moves were just so good. I loved royal rumble that would be done in the start of the year.

For me wwe was never the thing that one would purchase its pay per view.

I dont understand how has this business survived because it gets tiring watching the same guys have the same fake feuds as you mature.

Its always that fan favourite guy winning. Hated the likes of cena or that yes yes guy......

All wrestling fans know it's scripted. The moves they do precisely require them to train for years to execute in such a way that it doesn't damage their opponents. Plus they usually complement their matches in such a way that the storyline they are working gets told in action(all good wrestling feuds have that but not all).

They appeal to a certain audience that likes this industry. And that audience is too big actually. WWE is a global empire and is only growing further.

It's pretty much analogous to films. I doubt anyone thinks John Wick or Die is real but still everyone watched it for entertainment. Wrestlers work their craft to tell stories in the ring.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] did you see Cody vs Rollins at HIAC? That looked so painful. That ecchymosis was real. I had thought Cody only showing up would be something and was not expecting a good wrestling match. But it was one of the realest matches ever and Cody's injury added an altogether different element to it. I am not sure whether I would call Cody here brave or foolish. But this match was so much better than the blade jobs and thumbtacks ** wrestlers these days put up to call themselves hardcore wrestlers. (note to Nick Gage)

Plus I also consider Mick Foley to be sort of an idiot for putting his body through so much through the uncheckered and unregulated years of 90s wrestling industry. The kind of stuff he did without much precautions along with majority of ECW especially Sabu and Dreamer would not happen on TV currently.

Gage etc take it too far especially the independent scene. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea totally get that, I don’t mind it when it’s kept for special occasions and done safely without insulting the fans intelligence. Mick’s frame allowed him to endure all those crazy bumps, ECW’s vision of hardcore wrestling was not just all the crazy stunts but they also showcased technical wrestling as being very aggressive and violent, Paul bought in the Americans and Canadians working in Japan for that reason. Wrestling is still unregulated, AEW especially need to be careful; WWE changed their company entirely following Eddie and Benoit. Mick btw was far more versatile then the highlight reels you may have seen, very gifted all round performer, should have seen his work in the WWF when he first came up and the mic ability was outstanding.

As for the Cody/Rollins match, it was excellent and that injury elevated it to another level because you were on the edge, I don’t know if this has happened in wrestling before but looking forward to what Jim has to say. I liked the match but the HIAC structure was not required, it’s barely used. Thankfully, Cody came out ok after the match, credit to Seth to who did really well, and moreso; putting Cody over three matches on the trot even though I didn’t feel that was required, especially if Cody is out a while but I suppose it was the blow off

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] did you see Cody vs Rollins at HIAC? That looked so painful. That ecchymosis was real. I had thought Cody only showing up would be something and was not expecting a good wrestling match. But it was one of the realest matches ever and Cody's injury added an altogether different element to it. I am not sure whether I would call Cody here brave or foolish. But this match was so much better than the blade jobs and thumbtacks ** wrestlers these days put up to call themselves hardcore wrestlers. (note to Nick Gage)

Plus I also consider Mick Foley to be sort of an idiot for putting his body through so much through the uncheckered and unregulated years of 90s wrestling industry. The kind of stuff he did without much precautions along with majority of ECW especially Sabu and Dreamer would not happen on TV currently.

Cody pulled out an incredible effort at HIAC. Whether it was smart or not, I do not know. But he definitely did his best to turn a negative into a positive, and incorporated his very real injury into the match quite well. And by the end of it, he was definitely more over.

As a match I thought this was excellent. It was a WWE style main-event match which meant alot of kicking out of finishers, call-backs and theatrics. But all that made sense in the context of this storyline and because it was the blow-off match. Plus, everything was very well-executed. I even liked when it essentially became a Texas Bullrope Match in the middle. Caps off the best trilogy of matches between two guys in this company probably since Rollins and Edge.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] did you see Cody vs Rollins at HIAC? That looked so painful. That ecchymosis was real. I had thought Cody only showing up would be something and was not expecting a good wrestling match. But it was one of the realest matches ever and Cody's injury added an altogether different element to it. I am not sure whether I would call Cody here brave or foolish. But this match was so much better than the blade jobs and thumbtacks ** wrestlers these days put up to call themselves hardcore wrestlers. (note to Nick Gage)

Plus I also consider Mick Foley to be sort of an idiot for putting his body through so much through the uncheckered and unregulated years of 90s wrestling industry. The kind of stuff he did without much precautions along with majority of ECW especially Sabu and Dreamer would not happen on TV currently.

Well I don't know if I agree with that. Mick was a legend and an innovator. And had Mick not done what he did, he never would have been the legend that he is today. I agree that putting your body through that is not smart for the long-run. But fact is not everyone is 6'6, 260 pounds. And to be successful in this business you need something special that differentiates you from the rest. And this was even more true in Mick's days when you had guys like Austin, Rock, Taker, HHH in WWE's main-event picture. Mick was not a great worker and hardly a physical specimen, but he could talk and was tough and believable. So he decided that he was going to take crazy freaking bumps to get over. And I know its easy to criticize him for that, but fact is he did get over and became one of the biggest stars in wrestling during its hottest period. And that's no small feat for someone who looks like Mick. Its also important to note that Mick didn't just take crazy bumps, he was a great talker and personality aswell.

I also think there is a big difference between Mick and Nick Cage's of today, who are morons (not wrestlers) that go out there and mutilate themselves infront of 50 marks and then pat themselves on the back for "getting a reaction out of the audience".

For one thing, Mick didn't just take bumps for the sake of taking them like these garbage deathmatch wrestlers of today. He usually did them for a reason, but also because back then that kind of craziness actually meant something because it happened rarely and wasn't happening on every lousy indie deathmatch promotion within a 5 mile radius. And while Mick was not a great worker, he did know how to work, was a professional and understood in-ring psychology. Check out his Hardcore/HIAC matches against HHH in 2000 and the Hardcore match against Orton in 2004, he made stars out of these guys and they were great wrestling matches.

While I don't advocate that style of wrestling, if there is anyone in the history of wrestling who could do it and do it well, where it was not just believable but actually meant something; it was Mick.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Gage etc take it too far especially the independent scene. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea totally get that, I don’t mind it when it’s kept for special occasions and done safely without insulting the fans intelligence. Mick’s frame allowed him to endure all those crazy bumps, ECW’s vision of hardcore wrestling was not just all the crazy stunts but they also showcased technical wrestling as being very aggressive and violent, Paul bought in the Americans and Canadians working in Japan for that reason. Wrestling is still unregulated, AEW especially need to be careful; WWE changed their company entirely following Eddie and Benoit. Mick btw was far more versatile then the highlight reels you may have seen, very gifted all round performer, should have seen his work in the WWF when he first came up and the mic ability was outstanding.

As for the Cody/Rollins match, it was excellent and that injury elevated it to another level because you were on the edge, I don’t know if this has happened in wrestling before but looking forward to what Jim has to say. I liked the match but the HIAC structure was not required, it’s barely used. Thankfully, Cody came out ok after the match, credit to Seth to who did really well, and moreso; putting Cody over three matches on the trot even though I didn’t feel that was required, especially if Cody is out a while but I suppose it was the blow off

I'm with you on Mick, but as much I love him, I do think he and ECW have to take some responsibility for the influence they have had on deathmatch wrestling. Though they certainly didn't intend it, I'm fairly certain that it was after seeing Mick and ECW that all of these deathmatch morons thought that the only thing they need to do to get over is take crazy bumps and mutilate themselves. Ofcourse if it was that simple, every fat schlub in the business that looked like Foley would be a star.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Gage etc take it too far especially the independent scene. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea totally get that, I don’t mind it when it’s kept for special occasions and done safely without insulting the fans intelligence. Mick’s frame allowed him to endure all those crazy bumps, ECW’s vision of hardcore wrestling was not just all the crazy stunts but they also showcased technical wrestling as being very aggressive and violent, Paul bought in the Americans and Canadians working in Japan for that reason. Wrestling is still unregulated, AEW especially need to be careful; WWE changed their company entirely following Eddie and Benoit. Mick btw was far more versatile then the highlight reels you may have seen, very gifted all round performer, should have seen his work in the WWF when he first came up and the mic ability was outstanding.

As for the Cody/Rollins match, it was excellent and that injury elevated it to another level because you were on the edge, I don’t know if this has happened in wrestling before but looking forward to what Jim has to say. I liked the match but the HIAC structure was not required, it’s barely used. Thankfully, Cody came out ok after the match, credit to Seth to who did really well, and moreso; putting Cody over three matches on the trot even though I didn’t feel that was required, especially if Cody is out a while but I suppose it was the blow off

I know ECW had some good stuff in it. Especially loved Dudleys in there. And RVD's career launched from there. I think RVD was one who did the matches using weapons to perfection. Not insanely dangerous but good enough to make you go wow. But that may be just my own opinion. Stone Cold got a good unbridled restart from there that led to his signing with WWE. But I didn't like how women were simply made to use as eye candy and were sort of exploited. I think 90s wrestling had no regard for the women.

Regarding Foley, I agree with your point on him having some great presence and peerless mic work that always invested the crowd no matter what. His passionate promos were great back in the day. But I don't think he was a technical wizard. He was more of a brawler and he utilized it to max. He was clever with the way he went with his career in order to cement his legacy which I respect but don't agree with however. I think it might have definitely caused some permanent damage on his body that we might not know about.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well I don't know if I agree with that. Mick was a legend and an innovator. And had Mick not done what he did, he never would have been the legend that he is today. I agree that putting your body through that is not smart for the long-run. But fact is not everyone is 6'6, 260 pounds. And to be successful in this business you need something special that differentiates you from the rest. And this was even more true in Mick's days when you had guys like Austin, Rock, Taker, HHH in WWE's main-event picture. Mick was not a great worker and hardly a physical specimen, but he could talk and was tough and believable. So he decided that he was going to take crazy freaking bumps to get over. And I know its easy to criticize him for that, but fact is he did get over and became one of the biggest stars in wrestling during its hottest period. And that's no small feat for someone who looks like Mick. Its also important to note that Mick didn't just take crazy bumps, he was a great talker and personality aswell.

I also think there is a big difference between Mick and Nick Cage's of today, who are morons (not wrestlers) that go out there and mutilate themselves infront of 50 marks and then pat themselves on the back for "getting a reaction out of the audience".

For one thing, Mick didn't just take bumps for the sake of taking them like these garbage deathmatch wrestlers of today. He usually did them for a reason, but also because back then that kind of craziness actually meant something because it happened rarely and wasn't happening on every lousy indie deathmatch promotion within a 5 mile radius. And while Mick was not a great worker, he did know how to work, was a professional and understood in-ring psychology. Check out his Hardcore/HIAC matches against HHH in 2000 and the Hardcore match against Orton in 2004, he made stars out of these guys and they were great wrestling matches.

While I don't advocate that style of wrestling, if there is anyone in the history of wrestling who could do it and do it well, where it was not just believable but actually meant something; it was Mick.

I agree with the stuff that Mick is indeed the legend and the best in that hardcore style. And yes wrestling business was cut throat and you needed to do something extraordinary to stand apart from others. I respect his passion for the business and the countless good moments that he provided but I think the damage that he might have caused to his body might have had some serious lifetime consequences that we may not know about. He's already had a hip replacement surgery. God knows how many concussions did he suffer and what permanent brain damage is he living with. But it's good that he is still apparently healthy and in good spirits and hasn't gone down to the destructive paths of pain addiction drugs that others have gone to. Plus I think his mic skills were in the top echelon. He made you really feel what he was saying. Plus he also arguably wrote the best pro wrestling biography.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Cody pulled out an incredible effort at HIAC. Whether it was smart or not, I do not know. But he definitely did his best to turn a negative into a positive, and incorporated his very real injury into the match quite well. And by the end of it, he was definitely more over.

As a match I thought this was excellent. It was a WWE style main-event match which meant alot of kicking out of finishers, call-backs and theatrics. But all that made sense in the context of this storyline and because it was the blow-off match. Plus, everything was very well-executed. I even liked when it essentially became a Texas Bullrope Match in the middle. Caps off the best trilogy of matches between two guys in this company probably since Rollins and Edge.

Seth-Cody, Seth-Edge, Edge-Randy, Randy-Drew, AJ-Bryan, and New Day-Usos(2017-18) have been amongst the best feuds in last few years in WWE. Goes to tell you how good Seth and Edge have been doing with consistently putting on some great matches. Randy has also had a rejuvenation period ever since Edge came back. From the years 2016-2019, Randy seemed like he wasn't into the feuds he was doing.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Seth-Cody, Seth-Edge, Edge-Randy, Randy-Drew, AJ-Bryan, and New Day-Usos(2017-18) have been amongst the best feuds in last few years in WWE. Goes to tell you how good Seth and Edge have been doing with consistently putting on some great matches. Randy has also had a rejuvenation period ever since Edge came back. From the years 2016-2019, Randy seemed like he wasn't into the feuds he was doing.

Seth for me does not get enough credit. He's the best worker in the company....and the only person on equal footing is Orton. People are rightly praising Cody for this performance, but fact is it was Seth who had to work the entire match like he was hurting Cody's very real injury, without actually hurting his very real injury! And he did a freaking amazing job of it. And the fact that Cody even chose to wrestle this match tells you that he had complete confidence in Seth's abilities.

Edge is great but quite understandably not the Edge of the early to mid-2000s. He has adapted his style of wrestling really well with his considering his age and injuries, but I have noticed that his longer matches do get bogged down pacing-wise on alot of occassions. Ofcourse Edge is a smart worker which is why his break spots always make sense in the context of the match. Not that there is nothing wrong with that either. But he's just not on that tippy top level that Rollins and Orton are on for me.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Seth for me does not get enough credit. He's the best worker in the company....and the only person on equal footing is Orton. People are rightly praising Cody for this performance, but fact is it was Seth who had to work the entire match like he was hurting Cody's very real injury, without actually hurting his very real injury! And he did a freaking amazing job of it. And the fact that Cody even chose to wrestle this match tells you that he had complete confidence in Seth's abilities.

Edge is great but quite understandably not the Edge of the early to mid-2000s. He has adapted his style of wrestling really well with his considering his age and injuries, but I have noticed that his longer matches do get bogged down pacing-wise on alot of occassions. Ofcourse Edge is a smart worker which is why his break spots always make sense in the context of the match. Not that there is nothing wrong with that either. But he's just not on that tippy top level that Rollins and Orton are on for me.

For a 48 year old guy who spent 9 years out of action, I think he is doing much better than every other guy of his age in the business. Maybe only Rey is still defying the time with being being able to match the speed and agility of guys who are 20 years younger than him (although he is still not the rey of 90s-2000s). I think if Rey is pushed as a top guy and given better material than just getting to job to every other guy, his body of work could still stand among the top.

 

[shaz619]

I know ECW had some good stuff in it. Especially loved Dudleys in there. And RVD's career launched from there. I think RVD was one who did the matches using weapons to perfection. Not insanely dangerous but good enough to make you go wow. But that may be just my own opinion. Stone Cold got a good unbridled restart from there that led to his signing with WWE. But I didn't like how women were simply made to use as eye candy and were sort of exploited. I think 90s wrestling had no regard for the women.

Regarding Foley, I agree with your point on him having some great presence and peerless mic work that always invested the crowd no matter what. His passionate promos were great back in the day. But I don't think he was a technical wizard. He was more of a brawler and he utilized it to max. He was clever with the way he went with his career in order to cement his legacy which I respect but don't agree with however. I think it might have definitely caused some permanent damage on his body that we might not know about.

There is too much emphasis on putting over high flyers and technicians, wrestling is blessed with so many styles that we forget Brawling is an art in itself and nothing can make up for a low IQ or lack of ring psychology. Mick was one of the greatest brawlers of all time. Wrestlers historically have been judged by their ability to adapt, long before Shawn’s back injury I have magazine’s from the late 90’s where experts regarded him as the best all round ring performer in history and I believe it wasn’t just because he changed the game with his high spots or that he was a good technician, it was because he could do a bit of everything, ironically Mick was at the centre of the shift Shawn’s perception, yeah sure this guy can fly, yeah sure his ground work is great…but can he fight? can he suspend your disbelief? then comes mind games I believe in 96 the in your house show in one of the most under rated HBK matches ever, Shawn showed he could fight and Mick helped showcase that, we saw the same sort of evolution from Austin which culminated in arguably the best WM match in history at WM13.

 

[shaz619]

I'm with you on Mick, but as much I love him, I do think he and ECW have to take some responsibility for the influence they have had on deathmatch wrestling. Though they certainly didn't intend it, I'm fairly certain that it was after seeing Mick and ECW that all of these deathmatch morons thought that the only thing they need to do to get over is take crazy bumps and mutilate themselves. Ofcourse if it was that simple, every fat schlub in the business that looked like Foley would be a star.

More then Mick or anyone else, it was popular culture and the company shifted in that direction, it ensured the survival of the WWF, obviously ECW took it too far at times but Paul should be accountable for it and he admits that one thing he’d change is the unprotected chair shots to the head, but he changed the game, Paul knew the audience was shifting and adapted accordingly, he wasn’t just some guy who was all weapons and blood, he proved as the lead booker on Smackdown and in his most recent runs with the company.

 

[shaz619]

It’s so rare now, great brawlers and especially those blessed with a high ring IQ. Reigns would probably be at the top of this rare breed in wrestling today, any others? I would KO up there when he’s working as a heel and limits his theatrics


Meltzer has given the brusier brody award to Mox a few times but that is a joke imo the best brawlers in wrestling have a decent ring IQ, Mox is a talented worker but I wouldn’t consider him a brawler or a guy with the highest IQ between the ropes

Hilariously I just found Meltzer awarded Bryan his technical award for the first time in ages since he left the E. No one could surpass him while he was active as far as technical workers go

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It’s so rare now, great brawlers and especially those blessed with a high ring IQ. Reigns would probably be at the top of this rare breed in wrestling today, any others? I would KO up there when he’s working as a heel and limits his theatrics


Meltzer has given the brusier brody award to Mox a few times but that is a joke imo the best brawlers in wrestling have a decent ring IQ, Mox is a talented worker but I wouldn’t consider him a brawler or a guy with the highest IQ between the ropes

Hilariously I just found Meltzer awarded Bryan his technical award for the first time in ages since he left the E. No one could surpass him while he was active as far as technical workers go

Austin is the greatest brawler for me. Roman might currently be at the top with Drew coming close. KO is brilliant. Dwayne ranks pretty high for me. Mox as good as he is but he is quite repeatable and gets visibly slow at times. Reminds me a lot of Trips in his prime. Taker vs Mankind for me were some of the greatest brawling matches of all time. Made taker look human. Prime Joe is another good example

Bryan is the greatest technical wrestler from 2006 onwards.
Before that I believe it was a close tussle between Benoit and Kurt. I think (for me) Kurt is the greatest technical wrestler/sports entertainer of all time when you take into account charisma, mic skills, in ring work, character work, consistency and adaptability into account. He meshed well with all styles. His matches with Rey, HBK and Benoit were all masterpieces. With Rey, he sped up his style in order to mesh with Rey's agile high flying work. His matches with HBK were all round great wrestling matches, and with Benoit it was technical masterclass.

Well Meltzer is simply a mark now, nothing more. If Corbin goes to AEW, he would be giving all his matches 4-5 stars as well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It’s so rare now, great brawlers and especially those blessed with a high ring IQ. Reigns would probably be at the top of this rare breed in wrestling today, any others? I would KO up there when he’s working as a heel and limits his theatrics


Meltzer has given the brusier brody award to Mox a few times but that is a joke imo the best brawlers in wrestling have a decent ring IQ, Mox is a talented worker but I wouldn’t consider him a brawler or a guy with the highest IQ between the ropes

Hilariously I just found Meltzer awarded Bryan his technical award for the first time in ages since he left the E. No one could surpass him while he was active as far as technical workers go

Thing about Roman though is that his matches tend to be straight-up wrestling matches. His matches have brawling but it's usually much more about big moves, milking the crowd etc...the things you expect from a big-money WWE main-event match. Moxley's matches on the other hand do tend to have alot of brawling. Perhaps too much sometimes. But its not like he hasn't built an identity on being a brawler in this company. And on-top of that he wrestles more Hardcore/No DQ than most top guys in other companies too.

So it might be that Dave has judged it based on this criteria. Not sure.

Personally, I don't disagree with this award. I'm a big fan of Mox and for me, his matches have good psychology, his promos are always fire, and the guy is believable. Like you believe that the person he is being presented as on-screen is who he is.

But at the same time I can understand why everyone else might not feel the same way. Or even that the definition of a brawler may vary from person to person.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

More then Mick or anyone else, it was popular culture and the company shifted in that direction, it ensured the survival of the WWF, obviously ECW took it too far at times but Paul should be accountable for it and he admits that one thing he’d change is the unprotected chair shots to the head, but he changed the game, Paul knew the audience was shifting and adapted accordingly, he wasn’t just some guy who was all weapons and blood, he proved as the lead booker on Smackdown and in his most recent runs with the company.

No doubt about that. ECW and Paul E do deserve immense credit for bringing something truly revolutionary to the wrestling business. I mean people talk about how WCW changed the game by featuring cruiserweights on Nitro. But fact is Paul E had started bringing cruiserweights to ECW long before WCW properly capitalized on the idea. Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Benoit all dipped their feet in ECW too before they made their way to WCW. And honestly if they had some money, structure and weren't being constantly raided by WCW, they could have been more successful and maybe even a viable commercial entity today.

Watching their old PPVs and TV back, I never managed to become a fan. And if I am being honest I quite disliked the product barring a handful of matches, angles, promos. But the thing that I grasped later on was that it was very much a product of its time, and when the time went so did ECW. Everyone who was ever a fan of ECW thought it was the greatest thing ever. But it was also something that as you alluded to, was a reflection of the popular culture of the time. And I think that's something that people tend to miss when they talk about ECW in today's modern times.

But to make a long story short, I guess I agree with you. That more than Mick it was the time and place that shifted things. After a certain point even WCW (which prided itself as the wrestling company) started their own Hardcore division, just to cash in on the ECW crowd.

 

[shaz619]

Thing about Roman though is that his matches tend to be straight-up wrestling matches. His matches have brawling but it's usually much more about big moves, milking the crowd etc...the things you expect from a big-money WWE main-event match. Moxley's matches on the other hand do tend to have alot of brawling. Perhaps too much sometimes. But its not like he hasn't built an identity on being a brawler in this company. And on-top of that he wrestles more Hardcore/No DQ than most top guys in other companies too.

So it might be that Dave has judged it based on this criteria. Not sure.

Personally, I don't disagree with this award. I'm a big fan of Mox and for me, his matches have good psychology, his promos are always fire, and the guy is believable. Like you believe that the person he is being presented as on-screen is who he is.

But at the same time I can understand why everyone else might not feel the same way. Or even that the definition of a brawler may vary from person to person.

He focuses more on the psychology and builds towards his spots. The match is going to be worked based on their agreed layout which not everyone is a fan off but I rather that then see lack of professionalism in the main event but beyond that, looking at Reigns the individual performer, his skill levels and brawling capability, he’s vastly superior to anyone else out there right now, I know they’re doing the bloodline gimmick but brawling is literally in his blood and has been mastered by the samoan dynasty, it’s a big misconception to associate it with excessive weapon use or blading, maybe that’s how Meltzer looks at it now but that’s ridiculous really, brawling simulates real fighting with a big emphasis on your strikes, we are looking at throwing a proper worked punch for example (it’s so basic yet very few can execute this effectively), big requirement to be able to sell and listening to the crowd to adapt on the go. Austin was a master of it but he transitioned to that style when be was a gifted technician, Bret and Shawn could turn that switch on when needed to stunning results, Brawling relies heavily on excellent judgement and a sound ring IQ in my view

Mox I never saw as a brawler in that regard, he’s more of an all round performer, he does a good bit of everything but his ring IQ is low.

 

[shaz619]

No doubt about that. ECW and Paul E do deserve immense credit for bringing something truly revolutionary to the wrestling business. I mean people talk about how WCW changed the game by featuring cruiserweights on Nitro. But fact is Paul E had started bringing cruiserweights to ECW long before WCW properly capitalized on the idea. Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Benoit all dipped their feet in ECW too before they made their way to WCW. And honestly if they had some money, structure and weren't being constantly raided by WCW, they could have been more successful and maybe even a viable commercial entity today.

Watching their old PPVs and TV back, I never managed to become a fan. And if I am being honest I quite disliked the product barring a handful of matches, angles, promos. But the thing that I grasped later on was that it was very much a product of its time, and when the time went so did ECW. Everyone who was ever a fan of ECW thought it was the greatest thing ever. But it was also something that as you alluded to, was a reflection of the popular culture of the time. And I think that's something that people tend to miss when they talk about ECW in today's modern times.

But to make a long story short, I guess I agree with you. That more than Mick it was the time and place that shifted things. After a certain point even WCW (which prided itself as the wrestling company) started their own Hardcore division, just to cash in on the ECW crowd.

Paul got those guys to work for free at and their work environment was dodge as hell especially the hotels near their shows, in the state they were in I think things got way out of hand and it may have got to a point where Paul probably couldn’t stop things creatively even if he may have wanted to but he did command their attention like a cult leader. Ignoring the negatives he inspired those CW’s to work their style in America and pioneered the AE era which also relied on that shock value which fans loved. The moments side of it was fun and in between the garbage the product was so much fun but I loved the RA era more for the more cohesive narrative in story telling and match quality

 

[shaz619]

How could we forget, Eddie Kingston is up there on the brawling side. The dude can fight and a big part of his style comes from his tough upbringing, he must have learned to sell the hard way to, Paige certainly did but her wrestling family made that part intensional, it’s crazy!

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He focuses more on the psychology and builds towards his spots. The match is going to be worked based on their agreed layout which not everyone is a fan off but I rather that then see lack of professionalism in the main event but beyond that, looking at Reigns the individual performer, his skill levels and brawling capability, he’s vastly superior to anyone else out there right now, I know they’re doing the bloodline gimmick but brawling is literally in his blood and has been mastered by the samoan dynasty, it’s a big misconception to associate it with excessive weapon use or blading, maybe that’s how Meltzer looks at it now but that’s ridiculous really, brawling simulates real fighting with a big emphasis on your strikes, we are looking at throwing a proper worked punch for example (it’s so basic yet very few can execute this effectively), big requirement to be able to sell and listening to the crowd to adapt on the go. Austin was a master of it but he transitioned to that style when be was a gifted technician, Bret and Shawn could turn that switch on when needed to stunning results, Brawling relies heavily on excellent judgement and a sound ring IQ in my view

Mox I never saw as a brawler in that regard, he’s more of an all round performer, he does a good bit of everything but his ring IQ is low.

Whats your opinion of Dwayne in terms of brawling? I think the connection he had with the crowd made it feel like every punch he was hitting was from the crowd and crowd could feel every punch he got hit with,