The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[BunnyRabbit]

No doubt about that. ECW and Paul E do deserve immense credit for bringing something truly revolutionary to the wrestling business. I mean people talk about how WCW changed the game by featuring cruiserweights on Nitro. But fact is Paul E had started bringing cruiserweights to ECW long before WCW properly capitalized on the idea. Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Benoit all dipped their feet in ECW too before they made their way to WCW. And honestly if they had some money, structure and weren't being constantly raided by WCW, they could have been more successful and maybe even a viable commercial entity today.

Watching their old PPVs and TV back, I never managed to become a fan. And if I am being honest I quite disliked the product barring a handful of matches, angles, promos. But the thing that I grasped later on was that it was very much a product of its time, and when the time went so did ECW. Everyone who was ever a fan of ECW thought it was the greatest thing ever. But it was also something that as you alluded to, was a reflection of the popular culture of the time. And I think that's something that people tend to miss when they talk about ECW in today's modern times.

But to make a long story short, I guess I agree with you. That more than Mick it was the time and place that shifted things. After a certain point even WCW (which prided itself as the wrestling company) started their own Hardcore division, just to cash in on the ECW crowd.

I feel like ECW was Michael Bay of pro wrestling. all crash and burn and fast paced stuff just what its fanbase wanted with some good storylines when paul felt like adding it. plus it was filled with sterotypes.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Whats your opinion of Dwayne in terms of brawling? I think the connection he had with the crowd made it feel like every punch he was hitting was from the crowd and crowd could feel every punch he got hit with,

Always saw The Rock as more of a worker than a brawler. His style of wrestling/bumping/selling was so unique and completely his own. And his timing on everything was so perfect. He didn't need to brawl because he had the ability to work a great wrestling match. With Austin becoming a brawler was more out of necessity rather than something he wanted to do. He had no choice but to dial his style down after the neck injury he suffered. Prior to that Austin was known to be scientific wrestler and a great worker.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

How could we forget, Eddie Kingston is up there on the brawling side. The dude can fight and a big part of his style comes from his tough upbringing, he must have learned to sell the hard way to, Paige certainly did but her wrestling family made that part intensional, it’s crazy!

Yeah Eddie for me is probably the purest definition of a brawler. His matches feel like a struggle between two guys and sometimes devolve into a straight-up fight. The match with Punk is probably the best example.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Paul got those guys to work for free at and their work environment was dodge as hell especially the hotels near their shows, in the state they were in I think things got way out of hand and it may have got to a point where Paul probably couldn’t stop things creatively even if he may have wanted to but he did command their attention like a cult leader. Ignoring the negatives he inspired those CW’s to work their style in America and pioneered the AE era which also relied on that shock value which fans loved. The moments side of it was fun and in between the garbage the product was so much fun but I loved the RA era more for the more cohesive narrative in story telling and match quality

Yeah same. RA Era streamlined the product and made it more interesting for me. Although the star quality was nowhere near AE. I felt that storylines were significantly better, and match-quality improved ten fold. Plus guys like Benoit, Eddie, Jericho, Edge who were previously having good midcard matches were now having great main-event matches too.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Always saw The Rock as more of a worker than a brawler. His style of wrestling/bumping/selling was so unique and completely his own. And his timing on everything was so perfect. He didn't need to brawl because he had the ability to work a great wrestling match. With Austin becoming a brawler was more out of necessity rather than something he wanted to do. He had no choice but to dial his style down after the neck injury he suffered. Prior to that Austin was known to be scientific wrestler and a great worker.

I used to love when Dwayne would run down the ramp to start the match earlier. Added a lot of heat to the match and made it feel like it was a blood feud. These days we get 5 min entrances even before some of the most heated rivalries.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you guys make of the news that Roman's new contract has him on very limited dates and appearances? Alot of people are saying that its kinda like a Brock Lesnar deal. And honestly when you look at it, he hasn't defended his belts even once since WrestleMania and will likely miss another PPV with MITB.

With Cody reportedly out for 9 months, Reigns barely appearing on the show, Edge and Orton being taken off TV; what stars are WWE even left with?

I know that they know they are too big to fail. But it just continues to amaze me how little they care about their fans. While I personally have a feeling that Cody will turn up at the Rumble, that's still 6 months away. And the worst thing of all is that Reigns has both belts. Which means you can't even put up one for a compelling title match.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you guys make of the news that Roman's new contract has him on very limited dates and appearances? Alot of people are saying that its kinda like a Brock Lesnar deal. And honestly when you look at it, he hasn't defended his belts even once since WrestleMania and will likely miss another PPV with MITB.

With Cody reportedly out for 9 months, Reigns barely appearing on the show, Edge and Orton being taken off TV; what stars are WWE even left with?

I know that they know they are too big to fail. But it just continues to amaze me how little they care about their fans. While I personally have a feeling that Cody will turn up at the Rumble, that's still 6 months away. And the worst thing of all is that Reigns has both belts. Which means you can't even put up one for a compelling title match.

Get ready for another Goldberg return lol.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Also, AEW finally bit the bullet and introduced their version of the Intercontinental Championship. Besides the stupid name (All-Atlantic Championship) which makes no sense, I actually really like the idea of another midcard belt. Most people (AEW fans included) have been very negative on this. But as someone who has always loved the IC title, I'm all onboard for it. Especially if the idea is infact to put it on some of the best workers in the company, which seems to be the direction.

Personally, I would love it if they have Miro as their inaugural champion. But I have a feeling they are going to put it on PAC.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Get ready for another Goldberg return lol.

Lol it could just happen. But I think they've milked out every big money match that they possibly could out of Oldberg. The Roman match was the last one remaining and they've done that too.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Lol it could just happen. But I think they've milked out every big money match that they possibly could out of Oldberg. The Roman match was the last one remaining and they've done that too.

Big Cass aka W.Morrissey's contract has expired with Impact, maybe WWE can sign him back.

 

[shaz619]

Whats your opinion of Dwayne in terms of brawling? I think the connection he had with the crowd made it feel like every punch he was hitting was from the crowd and crowd could feel every punch he got hit with,

He’s a good all round performer, don’t doubt his connection with the audience or ring IQ, I never saw him as a specialist brawler but he can adjust to that style which had a big emphasis during his run

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you guys make of the news that Roman's new contract has him on very limited dates and appearances? Alot of people are saying that its kinda like a Brock Lesnar deal. And honestly when you look at it, he hasn't defended his belts even once since WrestleMania and will likely miss another PPV with MITB.

With Cody reportedly out for 9 months, Reigns barely appearing on the show, Edge and Orton being taken off TV; what stars are WWE even left with?

I know that they know they are too big to fail. But it just continues to amaze me how little they care about their fans. While I personally have a feeling that Cody will turn up at the Rumble, that's still 6 months away. And the worst thing of all is that Reigns has both belts. Which means you can't even put up one for a compelling title match.

Usually, the E tends to be pretty good when they are on the ropes, they actually try to make more of an effort. Past few weeks have been interesting. On RAW they created headlines with the Balor turn, fresh angles, matches and focus on MITB, on SD this week when I found out Drew/Sheamus were working and that Gunther/Ricochet would be for the title I has to check it out, both matches were great TV; going back to the brawling topic, it comes natural to wrestlers from the UK lol and Sheamus is criminally under rated, his ring work is excellent, besides them Rousey had a segment who is a name and the main event is great. I know the internet complains all the time but this is the time when their favourites get showcased lol and Reigns tends to get stick from them but now he’s not around for a bit and they whinge, the WWE schedule is no joke and tbh with you am happy with the WWE/Universal unification because there are too many titles in wrestling and WWE would always book one champion as more superior then the other which I dislike, speaking of Reigns he’s back next week will be interesting to see what goes down.

They have a strong roster, how they present their stars is a different story but I felt it’s been more interesting lately. Remember when the guys were stranded in Saudi and the NXT guys came in and made the TV more fun. But it just shows stars can literally be made overnight. There is still some depth there with Styles, Lashley, Drew, Sheamus, Rousey, Becky, maybe Charlotte will be back to, Seth Rollins and they are supported by Riddle, Zayn, Mizz and some fresh crop in Theory, Ali being showcased again and am so excited for Gunther (arguably the best P4P worker in the world) so far am happy with his booking. And look, I hate what they are doing with Pete with the Butch thing but he’s on TV and has that chance to evolve, Ciampa is there to and thankfully they’ve not tweaked him much

It may be a little tricky with the house shows buf they’ve come through worse and the thing is, we’re the enthusiasts their casual fanbase is generally pretty strong and happy with the day to day stuff. And there’s always that plan B on the farms of Minnesota which Vince would happily get on his knees for

 

[shaz619]

Also, AEW finally bit the bullet and introduced their version of the Intercontinental Championship. Besides the stupid name (All-Atlantic Championship) which makes no sense, I actually really like the idea of another midcard belt. Most people (AEW fans included) have been very negative on this. But as someone who has always loved the IC title, I'm all onboard for it. Especially if the idea is infact to put it on some of the best workers in the company, which seems to be the direction.

Personally, I would love it if they have Miro as their inaugural champion. But I have a feeling they are going to put it on PAC.

PAC hasn’t tasted gold there if am wrong and he was working with the top stars there. PAC is a guy who has generally done pretty well not just in the ring but he has protected his character and the booking not too shoddy, the Undisputed Era were 10x much better presented in NXT and AEW should be criticised for that, imagine if Vince was booking him like a chump, I don’t feel he has the same heat anymore Adam Cole, but anyways PAC I don’t think there is a lot to complain about except perhaps he should be presented at the top of the card more often

 

[shaz619]

Okada/Cole is a better match up then Okada/Page.

Personally, it would have been epic if Okada was wrestling Daniel Bryan but hopefully they are saving that for WrestleKingdom next year. Then again, strike when the iron is hot because anything can happen especially in AEW and how they are not restrained, injuries are a big probability

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you guys make of the news that Roman's new contract has him on very limited dates and appearances? Alot of people are saying that its kinda like a Brock Lesnar deal. And honestly when you look at it, he hasn't defended his belts even once since WrestleMania and will likely miss another PPV with MITB.

With Cody reportedly out for 9 months, Reigns barely appearing on the show, Edge and Orton being taken off TV; what stars are WWE even left with?

I know that they know they are too big to fail. But it just continues to amaze me how little they care about their fans. While I personally have a feeling that Cody will turn up at the Rumble, that's still 6 months away. And the worst thing of all is that Reigns has both belts. Which means you can't even put up one for a compelling title match.

I had said it around Backlash time that it doesn't make sense to put both top titles on Roman if you are not having him defend it regularly.

I am not going to put the blame on Roman cause it's probably not his decision to have both titles put on him, plus he has been on the road consistently for almost 10 years now with one chemo induced break and one pandemic induced break in between. Plus chemo puts so much on the body (and as per roman he has to take a chemo tablet daily for the rest of his life i am guessing it's gleevec probs) so the guy has to live with side effects for the rest of his life and with the scary possibility of it returning any time. Plus the guy has a growing family with little kids, so his contract makes sense for him to work sorta part time.

The problem rests with WWE creative that they have put both titles on him and aren't doing anything with any of it. Roman hasn't been involved in a proper feud since winning at mania. He had an angle with drew and that's all. Plus even before mania, don't think he had defended the title since rumble.

Now that is on WWE for depriving the fans. Fans don't get to see any of the top belts while IC and US titles have been treated like decoration for 2 years i guess. So basically there is just tag team titles and women's championship that gets defended frequently which is laughable. Title unification was already a stupid idea even heyman said it before mania.

They need to put atleast one title on someone else. I feel like and hope Roman loses atleast one title to Drew at the Castle.

I think Randy is going to return once Riddle gets beaten by Roman which is supposedly this week.

Plus Cena is going to return in 2 weeks, so he will be a draw for WWE till Summerslam so even with Romans absence, WWE get to generate tons of money.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He’s a good all round performer, don’t doubt his connection with the audience or ring IQ, I never saw him as a specialist brawler but he can adjust to that style which had a big emphasis during his run

Think of the 5 WWE leads in its history(Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena and Roman), Dwayne was the only one who was presented as a guy who could be beaten. Everyone knows about the invincibility of Hogan and Cena during their main run and Roman since his new gimmick, Austin was also rarely ever pinned and when he would get pinned, it was mostly due to interference etc). Dwayne was the only one who consistently remained as the guy who his opponents could beat which reflects in his short reigns. During his main run, I believe he held the record of most championships at 7 times I think (obviously excluding Ric)

I think Taker's supernatural gimmick diverted the attention from the fact he was probably the best brawler during most of his first 20 years. It was only after Taker's feud with Foley, that he began to be presented as someone assailable to pain.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Also, AEW finally bit the bullet and introduced their version of the Intercontinental Championship. Besides the stupid name (All-Atlantic Championship) which makes no sense, I actually really like the idea of another midcard belt. Most people (AEW fans included) have been very negative on this. But as someone who has always loved the IC title, I'm all onboard for it. Especially if the idea is infact to put it on some of the best workers in the company, which seems to be the direction.

Personally, I would love it if they have Miro as their inaugural champion. But I have a feeling they are going to put it on PAC.

How are they going to differentiate the TNT championship from All Atlantic one? Like which one would rank higher in terms of credibility? It really makes no sense unless they handicap it with some stipulation.
WWE have two midcard singles belt cause of two brands. I hardly think Rampage or Dark counts as another brand. They seem to be more like Heat and Velocity.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

PAC hasn’t tasted gold there if am wrong and he was working with the top stars there. PAC is a guy who has generally done pretty well not just in the ring but he has protected his character and the booking not too shoddy, the Undisputed Era were 10x much better presented in NXT and AEW should be criticised for that, imagine if Vince was booking him like a chump, I don’t feel he has the same heat anymore Adam Cole, but anyways PAC I don’t think there is a lot to complain about except perhaps he should be presented at the top of the card more often

With all the (longterm) focus on the Elite, I don't see Redragon's run in AEW topping their run in NXT. Even when(or if) they feud with the Bucks and Omega, they would be the least focused thing in their own feud esp Kyle and Fish.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Usually, the E tends to be pretty good when they are on the ropes, they actually try to make more of an effort. Past few weeks have been interesting. On RAW they created headlines with the Balor turn, fresh angles, matches and focus on MITB, on SD this week when I found out Drew/Sheamus were working and that Gunther/Ricochet would be for the title I has to check it out, both matches were great TV; going back to the brawling topic, it comes natural to wrestlers from the UK lol and Sheamus is criminally under rated, his ring work is excellent, besides them Rousey had a segment who is a name and the main event is great. I know the internet complains all the time but this is the time when their favourites get showcased lol and Reigns tends to get stick from them but now he’s not around for a bit and they whinge, the WWE schedule is no joke and tbh with you am happy with the WWE/Universal unification because there are too many titles in wrestling and WWE would always book one champion as more superior then the other which I dislike, speaking of Reigns he’s back next week will be interesting to see what goes down.

They have a strong roster, how they present their stars is a different story but I felt it’s been more interesting lately. Remember when the guys were stranded in Saudi and the NXT guys came in and made the TV more fun. But it just shows stars can literally be made overnight. There is still some depth there with Styles, Lashley, Drew, Sheamus, Rousey, Becky, maybe Charlotte will be back to, Seth Rollins and they are supported by Riddle, Zayn, Mizz and some fresh crop in Theory, Ali being showcased again and am so excited for Gunther (arguably the best P4P worker in the world) so far am happy with his booking. And look, I hate what they are doing with Pete with the Butch thing but he’s on TV and has that chance to evolve, Ciampa is there to and thankfully they’ve not tweaked him much

It may be a little tricky with the house shows buf they’ve come through worse and the thing is, we’re the enthusiasts their casual fanbase is generally pretty strong and happy with the day to day stuff. And there’s always that plan B on the farms of Minnesota which Vince would happily get on his knees for

I just wish (please please) this current vacuum would force WWE to look to someone else and maybe they would rise in the ranks. Balor should have turned heel long ago. If they could just present him like they did him in NXT, I think he would look so so much better and credible. The smiling Balor entrance felt robotic. Plus I think with Edge back to being a face, his and Balor's matches could really light up the arena. If you noticed in that 6 person match, the chemistry between Edge and Balor was far better that Edge/AJ chemistry that we had seen. The spear counter into a small package was such a smooth transition it actually looked like he might steal the pin there.

Plus I also hope somehow Ciampa gets some good material to work with. The guy can get over with the crowd.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Get ready for another Goldberg return lol.

Nah his contract is up plus he whines a lot about making appearances on TV.

I guess Vince would go back to Brock rather than Goldberg. Plus Cena is also returning later this month.

 

[Markhor]

Vince McMahon has stepped back from his duties.

The WSJ has reported an investigation into a $3m payout made to a former paralegal who he had an affair with. The settlements also implicate John Laurinaitis. Explains why Vince and Linda have been separated.

However he retains control of creative. He won't let go of his company until he's six feet under.

Stephanie McMahon who only just stepped down last month for "family reasons" (surely she knew of this affair ?) will take over as the interim head.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Vince McMahon has stepped back from his duties.

The WSJ has reported an investigation into a $3m payout made to a former paralegal who he had an affair with. The settlements also implicate John Laurinaitis. Explains why Vince and Linda have been separated.

However he retains control of creative. He won't let go of his company until he's six feet under.

Stephanie McMahon who only just stepped down last month for "family reasons" (surely she knew of this affair ?) will take over as the interim head.

Yes pretty crazy few days for WWE.
He'll remain in charge of the creative meanwhile.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] Well i was out of social media for some days and seems like the world has shaken for WWE.

Vince steps back as Chairman and CEO of WWE. Steph takes over.

He's been charged with having an affair with a paralegal who was released earlier this year. She was originally being paid 100K$, which was raised to 200k$. Afterwards, Vince "passed her on" to John Laurinaitis. They apparently paid her millions afterwards to keep her silent about it. Someone allegedly from the Board leaked it to the Board of Directors who are conducting a review regarding whether he paid her off from company's money or his own.

Vince and Ace have always been known to be perverts and harassers. But approaching 80, I thought he might have taken a back seat from such stuff.

 

[shaz619]

Vince McMahon has stepped back from his duties.

The WSJ has reported an investigation into a $3m payout made to a former paralegal who he had an affair with. The settlements also implicate John Laurinaitis. Explains why Vince and Linda have been separated.

However he retains control of creative. He won't let go of his company until he's six feet under.

Stephanie McMahon who only just stepped down last month for "family reasons" (surely she knew of this affair ?) will take over as the interim head.

Possibly, but the reasoning she gave was due to wanting to focus more on family due to the scare with Hunter which is perfectly understandable but there may have been some differences backstage for sure.

Stephanie being the interim chairman is a joke, considering Vince will retain creative lol you’re right, he will only let go then, it’s not work for him, it’s his passion and I think he’s the perfect example of work not being work. But you just think, wouldn’t he just rather be on a beach?

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] Well i was out of social media for some days and seems like the world has shaken for WWE.

Vince steps back as Chairman and CEO of WWE. Steph takes over.

He's been charged with having an affair with a paralegal who was released earlier this year. She was originally being paid 100K$, which was raised to 200k$. Afterwards, Vince "passed her on" to John Laurinaitis. They apparently paid her millions afterwards to keep her silent about it. Someone allegedly from the Board leaked it to the Board of Directors who are conducting a review regarding whether he paid her off from company's money or his own.

Vince and Ace have always been known to be perverts and harassers. But approaching 80, I thought he might have taken a back seat from such stuff.

When it was still a privately owned family business, he could call his own shots and survived so many scandals. Now being a publicly traded corporation with shareholders to answer to, he cannot run the company like his personal fiefdom.

However he's only stepping aside for the duration of the investigation, and already Jerry McDevitt is quick to emphasise that personal funds were used for the settlement not company dollars.

It's not the first time he's cheated on Linda, but he did let slip something was amiss when he referred to Linda as "my wife at the time" in a recent interview.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] Well i was out of social media for some days and seems like the world has shaken for WWE.

Vince steps back as Chairman and CEO of WWE. Steph takes over.

He's been charged with having an affair with a paralegal who was released earlier this year. She was originally being paid 100K$, which was raised to 200k$. Afterwards, Vince "passed her on" to John Laurinaitis. They apparently paid her millions afterwards to keep her silent about it. Someone allegedly from the Board leaked it to the Board of Directors who are conducting a review regarding whether he paid her off from company's money or his own.

Vince and Ace have always been known to be perverts and harassers. But approaching 80, I thought he might have taken a back seat from such stuff.

This is the least bit surprising, am still trying to get my head around how Snuka got away with murder literally under the supervision of Vince. Both have never been held accountable for their part.

Vince is a genius and unique individual, but probably has plenty of skeletons in the closet.

He’s appearing on Smackdown tonight lol [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

 

[BunnyRabbit]

This is the least bit surprising, am still trying to get my head around how Snuka got away with murder literally under the supervision of Vince. Both have never been held accountable for their part.

Vince is a genius and unique individual, but probably has plenty of skeletons in the closet.

He’s appearing on Smackdown tonight lol [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

The scandals that have come out are only the tip of iceberg I believe. Vince like majority of billionaires will have secrets of enormous proportions.

Plus Vince has never really denied being a pervert or a shady guy.

Well that was a different era. A drug fueled era with propensity of violence and unchecked behavior.

Jimmy's daughter is still there employed by WWE and Snuka is still presented as a hero. Even the Anoi family calls him family.

Vince allegedly sexually harassed Sable back in 90s regularly. Years later, her husband (Brock) is positioned as the highest paid guy in the company who maintains a great relation with Vince. It's so weird if one pays a little more attention to it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

When it was still a privately owned family business, he could call his own shots and survived so many scandals. Now being a publicly traded corporation with shareholders to answer to, he cannot run the company like his personal fiefdom.

However he's only stepping aside for the duration of the investigation, and already Jerry McDevitt is quick to emphasise that personal funds were used for the settlement not company dollars.

It's not the first time he's cheated on Linda, but he did let slip something was amiss when he referred to Linda as "my wife at the time" in a recent interview.

I feel like Nick Khan is the one making all the calls. I won't be surprised if he becomes the head of WWE in a few years. What a rise would that be!

Plus till now, Nick doesn't have any scandals etc to be considered a bad choice.

 

[Markhor]

This is the least bit surprising, am still trying to get my head around how Snuka got away with murder literally under the supervision of Vince. Both have never been held accountable for their part.

Vince is a genius and unique individual, but probably has plenty of skeletons in the closet.

He’s appearing on Smackdown tonight lol @Markhor

Only he could do that

You're both right to point out the Snuka incident as an example of literally getting away with murder. Nobody can seriously believe Nancy Argentino simply tripped and hit her head on a rock, or any of the other flimsy alibis Snuka came up with. The autopsy concluded it was homicide.

After that DSOTR documentary, I heard wrestling journalist Irv Muchnick saying the local police were notoriously corrupt and mishandled many cases around that time. Pennsylvania is apparently one of the most corrupt US states.

Now the WWF ran their TV tapings out of Allentown, Pennsylvania once every 3 weeks. Therefore it's not inconceivable to think Vince pulled the "we're a big contributor to local business, here's a little donation, make this go away." Of all the interviews, the meeting between Vince and the police wasn't transcripted !

I don't condone having affairs but it's crazy to think of all the scandals over the years, this brings Vince down, and only temporarily !

 

[James]

More on this —

<b>Vince McMahon: WWE CEO steps down amid misconduct inquiry</b>

The chairman and CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) has relinquished his duties as his board of directors investigates him for misconduct.

The inquiry revolves around an alleged $3m (£2.5m) settlement between Vince McMahon and an ex-employee with whom he had a consensual affair.

The WWE on Friday said Mr McMahon, 76, had "voluntarily stepped back from his responsibilities".

His daughter Stephanie, 45, will serve as interim CEO and chairwoman.

Mr McMahon has not responded directly to the claims but, in a statement, pledged his "complete cooperation to the investigation".

"I have also pledged to accept the findings and outcome of the investigation, whatever they are," he added.

The company has said the billionaire will "retain his role and responsibilities related to WWE's creative content" during the investigation, later adding in a tweet that he would open Friday night's Smackdown programme.

According to the Wall Street Journal, which first broke news of the "hush money pact" on Wednesday, the January settlement bars the departing paralegal from discussing the relationship with Mr McMahon or otherwise disparaging him.

The WWE's board is now said to be in possession of a copy of the agreement - an upfront payment of $1m, with the rest to be doled out over five years and apparently paid by Mr McMahon personally.

Anonymous emails forwarded to board members reportedly claim the woman was hired at a salary of $100,000 but Mr McMahon doubled the figure once they began a relationship.

One reads: "My friend was so scared so she quit after Vince McMahon and lawyer Jerry paid her millions of dollars to shut up," according to the report.

WWE's board has also unearthed previous settlements involving Mr McMahon - potentially running into the millions of dollars - since it opened its investigation in April, the outlet claimed.

Also named in the news report was the company's head of talent relations, John Laurinaitis, who faces claims of misconduct as well.

Mr McMahon founded the WWE in the 1980s and has overseen its growth into a media juggernaut whose weekly content is broadcast in more than 180 countries and 30 languages.

The company's stock is publicly traded, but Mr McMahon retains a majority of its shares.

He, his daughter and her husband Paul Levesque - better known as the wrestler Triple H - all sit on the 12-member board of directors.

In May, Ms McMahon stepped away from her main role as chief brand officer "to focus on my family", soon after Mr Levesque underwent surgery for a "very serious" cardiac event.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61843035We

 

[shaz619]

The scandals that have come out are only the tip of iceberg I believe. Vince like majority of billionaires will have secrets of enormous proportions.

Plus Vince has never really denied being a pervert or a shady guy.

Well that was a different era. A drug fueled era with propensity of violence and unchecked behavior.

Jimmy's daughter is still there employed by WWE and Snuka is still presented as a hero. Even the Anoi family calls him family.

Vince allegedly sexually harassed Sable back in 90s regularly. Years later, her husband (Brock) is positioned as the highest paid guy in the company who maintains a great relation with Vince. It's so weird if one pays a little more attention to it.

The Sable one is interesting, but it didn’t involve Vince in a personal capacity. The lawsuit which Sable filed was more related to sexist creative, basically the sort of stuff which Trish would agree to later and also the culture backstage in general with the men being big perverts that time behaviours were also a reflection of the culture. WWE counter sued at the time and the two parties settled. I don’t feel like Sable was mistreated to an illegal extent by the higher ups at her peak because she was a big draw and super over, she was stuck in a contract and wanted out to explore opportunities outside the company. If her treatment was that poor she wouldn’t have returned in the early 2000’s.

 

[shaz619]

Only he could do that

You're both right to point out the Snuka incident as an example of literally getting away with murder. Nobody can seriously believe Nancy Argentino simply tripped and hit her head on a rock, or any of the other flimsy alibis Snuka came up with. The autopsy concluded it was homicide.

After that DSOTR documentary, I heard wrestling journalist Irv Muchnick saying the local police were notoriously corrupt and mishandled many cases around that time. Pennsylvania is apparently one of the most corrupt US states.

Now the WWF ran their TV tapings out of Allentown, Pennsylvania once every 3 weeks. Therefore it's not inconceivable to think Vince pulled the "we're a big contributor to local business, here's a little donation, make this go away." Of all the interviews, the meeting between Vince and the police wasn't transcripted !

I don't condone having affairs but it's crazy to think of all the scandals over the years, this brings Vince down, and only temporarily !

Totally agree those sequence of events on Snuka are probably what happened, unfortunately he passed away just when those old skeletons were about to come out back in 2015 when the case was judged as open and they were trying to get him to stand trial.

WWE bought out DSTOR to with the imminent Vince episode which was scheduled lol it is still planned but probably with a completely different narrative.

Vince got a big pop when he opened Smackdown ) he gives zero fudges literally LOL

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Totally agree those sequence of events on Snuka are probably what happened, unfortunately he passed away just when those old skeletons were about to come out back in 2015 when the case was judged as open and they were trying to get him to stand trial.

WWE bought out DSTOR to with the imminent Vince episode which was scheduled lol it is still planned but probably with a completely different narrative.

Vince got a big pop when he opened Smackdown ) he gives zero fudges literally LOL

Sadly even the case against Snuka was dismissed a few weeks before his death.

Well a lot of WWE "hardcore" fans are half brained cultists as well. Although a lot of kids and some casual fans might not have heard of the Vince news, but the ones who did know about it and gave him an ovation. Plus twitter is full of guys who keep unconditionally defending Vince regardless of the situation. It's like give an idiot a stone, he will keep insisting in believing how it is a stick.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The Sable one is interesting, but it didn’t involve Vince in a personal capacity. The lawsuit which Sable filed was more related to sexist creative, basically the sort of stuff which Trish would agree to later and also the culture backstage in general with the men being big perverts that time behaviours were also a reflection of the culture. WWE counter sued at the time and the two parties settled. I don’t feel like Sable was mistreated to an illegal extent by the higher ups at her peak because she was a big draw and super over, she was stuck in a contract and wanted out to explore opportunities outside the company. If her treatment was that poor she wouldn’t have returned in the early 2000’s.

I don't know man. 90% of female wrestlers will come up with negatives once they are gone from WWE.
Recently Kaitlyn made a few statements about WWE's environment being unhealthy and stuff. Even though she was raving about WWE during the second or third Mae young classic tournament etc.

Sometimes people don't speak up due to the external pressures etc, but then there are a lot of people who would start telling their own negative experiences once someone sues WWE and there's bad press on the company. Some people speak truth, some come up with fabricated stories for monetary benefits or getting into limelight.

I feel like there's evil on both sides. No doubt WWE has a lot of evil practices and a lot of guys there have done terrible stuff and have been perverts but that doesn't mean some female talent didn't intentionally use their appeal to get ahead in the business.

Like the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Y2J was a company man through and through till he signed with AEW. And now all he does is spew vitriol on WWE or try to talk AEW as the better managed etc over WWE.

 

[shaz619]

I don't know man. 90% of female wrestlers will come up with negatives once they are gone from WWE.
Recently Kaitlyn made a few statements about WWE's environment being unhealthy and stuff. Even though she was raving about WWE during the second or third Mae young classic tournament etc.

Sometimes people don't speak up due to the external pressures etc, but then there are a lot of people who would start telling their own negative experiences once someone sues WWE and there's bad press on the company. Some people speak truth, some come up with fabricated stories for monetary benefits or getting into limelight.

I feel like there's evil on both sides. No doubt WWE has a lot of evil practices and a lot of guys there have done terrible stuff and have been perverts but that doesn't mean some female talent didn't intentionally use their appeal to get ahead in the business.

Like the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Y2J was a company man through and through till he signed with AEW. And now all he does is spew vitriol on WWE or try to talk AEW as the better managed etc over WWE.

Yeah there is evil on both sides for sure, just think if Paige was do use her shtick to get back at the E but all of that was driven by her own desires lol am sure there are plenty of other examples like that over the years to, going on the road can bring out all sorts of personalities and is gruelling.

Y2J is a legend lol it’s strictly business with him and am sure Vince is aware of that, Y2J is a very opportunistic dude, he would jump back to WWE if it was justified creatively and for his legacy. Him and Vince have always had a great relationship, he asked Vince’s permission to join AEW to and didn’t need to, Vince allowed him back on the network after that as well remember.

 

[shaz619]

Sadly even the case against Snuka was dismissed a few weeks before his death.

Well a lot of WWE "hardcore" fans are half brained cultists as well. Although a lot of kids and some casual fans might not have heard of the Vince news, but the ones who did know about it and gave him an ovation. Plus twitter is full of guys who keep unconditionally defending Vince regardless of the situation. It's like give an idiot a stone, he will keep insisting in believing how it is a stick.

The bulk of their fanbase is family’s / casuals, most of the marks jumped to AEW especially with no NXT. There are many who will defend him blindly which is poor for sure, most of these folk are unaware of things which are 10x worse, an affair if looked at in isolation isn’t as awful really and as Markhor said to think this is what would bring him down is crazy lol but I’ve also seen it more to do with his contribution to the wrestling industry

 

[shaz619]

Smackdown was pretty good, I think Raquel Gonzales is my new favourite female prospect; massive potential, love her work so far. The main event was excellent between Riddle and Reigns, I know it was impossible but there were some spots where they made me feel Riddle could go over which is difficult to execute in wrestling, try to watch this match without the adverts.

Lesnar/Reigns may feel soul sucking but right but in the circumstances these two are the biggest draws and the match will be better then mania. Although I’d have booked them on the same card, just against some fresh opponents

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Big Cass aka W.Morrissey's contract has expired with Impact, maybe WWE can sign him back.

He looks much better than he did when he was in WWE. But I dunno if WWE will go with him. They already have multiple giants on their roster. One of whom they are trying desperately to push.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Usually, the E tends to be pretty good when they are on the ropes, they actually try to make more of an effort. Past few weeks have been interesting. On RAW they created headlines with the Balor turn, fresh angles, matches and focus on MITB, on SD this week when I found out Drew/Sheamus were working and that Gunther/Ricochet would be for the title I has to check it out, both matches were great TV; going back to the brawling topic, it comes natural to wrestlers from the UK lol and Sheamus is criminally under rated, his ring work is excellent, besides them Rousey had a segment who is a name and the main event is great. I know the internet complains all the time but this is the time when their favourites get showcased lol and Reigns tends to get stick from them but now he’s not around for a bit and they whinge, the WWE schedule is no joke and tbh with you am happy with the WWE/Universal unification because there are too many titles in wrestling and WWE would always book one champion as more superior then the other which I dislike, speaking of Reigns he’s back next week will be interesting to see what goes down.

They have a strong roster, how they present their stars is a different story but I felt it’s been more interesting lately. Remember when the guys were stranded in Saudi and the NXT guys came in and made the TV more fun. But it just shows stars can literally be made overnight. There is still some depth there with Styles, Lashley, Drew, Sheamus, Rousey, Becky, maybe Charlotte will be back to, Seth Rollins and they are supported by Riddle, Zayn, Mizz and some fresh crop in Theory, Ali being showcased again and am so excited for Gunther (arguably the best P4P worker in the world) so far am happy with his booking. And look, I hate what they are doing with Pete with the Butch thing but he’s on TV and has that chance to evolve, Ciampa is there to and thankfully they’ve not tweaked him much

It may be a little tricky with the house shows buf they’ve come through worse and the thing is, we’re the enthusiasts their casual fanbase is generally pretty strong and happy with the day to day stuff. And there’s always that plan B on the farms of Minnesota which Vince would happily get on his knees for

There's no doubt that they have alot of talent on their roster. But it goes back to the same thing. Only a handful of them have been pushed like stars.

There is alot of potential with WALTER if they let him be himself. Rollins is definitely a star. But the rest of the guys you mentioned have been damned to the midcard.

Owens who they resigned seemingly for millions of dollars is stuck in this idiotic midcard feud right out of early 90s WWF. McIntyre who should have been a main-event level star by now has done absolutely nothing of note since he lost the belt to Lashley. Lashley himself was just in feud with freakin Omos. And all they did was have one awful match after another.

I also seriously question how long they can even rely on their two biggest stars: Roman and Brock. Considering Brock is 44 and Roman may not have too many years left because of his health issues.

And watching SmackDown last night, just reaffirmed everything I had already known. It's back to the well for the umpteenth time, even though it makes no logical sense to have this match considering Roman beat Brock (the babyface) clean in the middle of the ring.

The next 6 months can be a great opportunity for them to create some new stars. Because as far as we know, Cody and Orton are both out for the remaining year. And chances are Roman and Brock will only be showing up for the big events. They can either phone it in like they have been, or they can actually seize this opportunity. And I don't even care if they push Madcap Moss. For once I'd like to see someone new in the main-event besides the same 5-6 guys.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Okada/Cole is a better match up then Okada/Page.

Personally, it would have been epic if Okada was wrestling Daniel Bryan but hopefully they are saving that for WrestleKingdom next year. Then again, strike when the iron is hot because anything can happen especially in AEW and how they are not restrained, injuries are a big probability

Sadly it seems Okada will be be missing the event. It's probably gonna be Bryan vs Zack Sabre Jr. and Jay White v Page v Cole

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I had said it around Backlash time that it doesn't make sense to put both top titles on Roman if you are not having him defend it regularly.

I am not going to put the blame on Roman cause it's probably not his decision to have both titles put on him, plus he has been on the road consistently for almost 10 years now with one chemo induced break and one pandemic induced break in between. Plus chemo puts so much on the body (and as per roman he has to take a chemo tablet daily for the rest of his life i am guessing it's gleevec probs) so the guy has to live with side effects for the rest of his life and with the scary possibility of it returning any time. Plus the guy has a growing family with little kids, so his contract makes sense for him to work sorta part time.

The problem rests with WWE creative that they have put both titles on him and aren't doing anything with any of it. Roman hasn't been involved in a proper feud since winning at mania. He had an angle with drew and that's all. Plus even before mania, don't think he had defended the title since rumble.

Now that is on WWE for depriving the fans. Fans don't get to see any of the top belts while IC and US titles have been treated like decoration for 2 years i guess. So basically there is just tag team titles and women's championship that gets defended frequently which is laughable. Title unification was already a stupid idea even heyman said it before mania.

They need to put atleast one title on someone else. I feel like and hope Roman loses atleast one title to Drew at the Castle.

I think Randy is going to return once Riddle gets beaten by Roman which is supposedly this week.

Plus Cena is going to return in 2 weeks, so he will be a draw for WWE till Summerslam so even with Romans absence, WWE get to generate tons of money.

No obviously not. The blame rests completely on creative and Vince. And its not like Roman has wrestled much anyway in the past two years. He has done most of the PPVs and house shows but on SD! he has largely been cutting promos. So its not like he can't do it. But its puzzling to me that WWE's biggest star in recent times usually tends to be the guy who barely shows up. Before it was Brock and now its Roman.

I'm sure they will make a ton of money. But Cena, Brock, Orton and even Reigns are not long-term solutions. How long are they going to keep relying on the same guys? They either need to refurbish someone like Drew who they have almost completely ruined, or they need to skyrocket someone like WALTER to the main-event.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

How are they going to differentiate the TNT championship from All Atlantic one? Like which one would rank higher in terms of credibility? It really makes no sense unless they handicap it with some stipulation.
WWE have two midcard singles belt cause of two brands. I hardly think Rampage or Dark counts as another brand. They seem to be more like Heat and Velocity.

I think they will be on equal footing. Like the US title and IC title. You don't need brands to have multiple midcard belts. That is a purely WWE concept. Back in the day, WCW had the US title and the TV title too.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] Well i was out of social media for some days and seems like the world has shaken for WWE.

Vince steps back as Chairman and CEO of WWE. Steph takes over.

He's been charged with having an affair with a paralegal who was released earlier this year. She was originally being paid 100K$, which was raised to 200k$. Afterwards, Vince "passed her on" to John Laurinaitis. They apparently paid her millions afterwards to keep her silent about it. Someone allegedly from the Board leaked it to the Board of Directors who are conducting a review regarding whether he paid her off from company's money or his own.

Vince and Ace have always been known to be perverts and harassers. But approaching 80, I thought he might have taken a back seat from such stuff.

Johnny Ace will be the sacrificial lamb. Don't see Vince being affected by this all that much. Might be damaging from a PR POV in the short-term. But knowing Vince, he is not going to let something like this take him out. Just don't see it happening.

Unless he dies or sells the company himself, he ain't going anywhere. And to be perfectly honest I'm even entirely convinced if he hasn't found a way to transfer his consciousness into a machine or something so he can live forever.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

PAC hasn’t tasted gold there if am wrong and he was working with the top stars there. PAC is a guy who has generally done pretty well not just in the ring but he has protected his character and the booking not too shoddy, the Undisputed Era were 10x much better presented in NXT and AEW should be criticised for that, imagine if Vince was booking him like a chump, I don’t feel he has the same heat anymore Adam Cole, but anyways PAC I don’t think there is a lot to complain about except perhaps he should be presented at the top of the card more often

No doubt O'Reilly and Cole have not been booked particularly well in AEW. But that said, they both have a higher ceiling in AEW than they did in WWE/NXT. Not only are both signed to long-term deals (5 or so years) but they will get to work with far diverse talent and whose to say that O'Reilly and Cole won't be maineventers a year or two later? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

To be fairly honest, I'm not the biggest fan of PAC. I mean he's good. But he ain't no Miro. Malakai Black with his B.S, UNdertaker rip-off stuff aside is also a far superior wrestler.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Johnny Ace will be the sacrificial lamb. Don't see Vince being affected by this all that much. Might be damaging from a PR POV in the short-term. But knowing Vince, he is not going to let something like this take him out. Just don't see it happening.

Unless he dies or sells the company himself, he ain't going anywhere. And to be perfectly honest I'm even entirely convinced if he hasn't found a way to transfer his consciousness into a machine or something so he can live forever.

Atleast Ace getting some flak would be good here. But I hope karma takes care of Vince at some point as well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Atleast Ace getting some flak would be good here. But I hope karma takes care of Vince at some point as well.

So I read on the internet that apparently when Johnny Ace was having these affairs, his wife (the mother of the Bella Twins) was having surgery for freakin brain cancer!

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah there is evil on both sides for sure, just think if Paige was do use her shtick to get back at the E but all of that was driven by her own desires lol am sure there are plenty of other examples like that over the years to, going on the road can bring out all sorts of personalities and is gruelling.

Y2J is a legend lol it’s strictly business with him and am sure Vince is aware of that, Y2J is a very opportunistic dude, he would jump back to WWE if it was justified creatively and for his legacy. Him and Vince have always had a great relationship, he asked Vince’s permission to join AEW to and didn’t need to, Vince allowed him back on the network after that as well remember.

I think we might start hearing from Paige once her contract is up in a few weeks as well.

Yes but Y2J previously maintained how he sees US as Vince's territory and wouldn't do anything to upset him. Then after signing him AEW, he started leaking out his old frustrations like not getting a Universal title match against KO at Mania, trips not letting NXT talent for his rock n rager event, him not being seen as a main eventer anymore. During AEW's first year, he kept saying AEW doesn't need CM Punk yet is silent about it now. More recently, he also said how Tony is the best boss he's ever worked for. I remember him posting a photo with Trips on IG stating how they have put differences aside and have been brothers for years yet some time later when he appeared on BSS with Austin, he again referred to the wrestling rager event while referring to Trips as "powers that be" and not in good light.

All of that going back on his words and changing sides made me change my views about him to an extent. I think he's quite petty as a person and is very much like Paul Heymanesque in business-is-business schtick.

I still admire all of his work in pro wrestling and he's one of my all time favorites but he's sorta shown his true colors as well that he isn't much different from other guys in the business which has made me lose some respect for him. If it were 2018 when Y2J was working NJPW and WWE simultaneously or even during his AEW championship run, I would've had much higher respect for him. Now I can't say he is any different from other guys like trips etc.

I feel like there are very few genuine people in the whole pro wrestling industry which is already filled with a lot of weird characters. I guess pro wrestling is not the right industry to look for role models

 

[BunnyRabbit]

So I read on the internet that apparently when Johnny Ace was having these affairs, his wife (the mother of the Bella Twins) was having surgery for freakin brain cancer!

Don't know about it. But never liked that guy. Like I have said multiple times, pro wrestling industry is full of nefarious characters devoid of basic human decency.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Smackdown was pretty good, I think Raquel Gonzales is my new favourite female prospect; massive potential, love her work so far. The main event was excellent between Riddle and Reigns, I know it was impossible but there were some spots where they made me feel Riddle could go over which is difficult to execute in wrestling, try to watch this match without the adverts.

Lesnar/Reigns may feel soul sucking but right but in the circumstances these two are the biggest draws and the match will be better then mania. Although I’d have booked them on the same card, just against some fresh opponents

Roman vs AJ/Seth and Brock vs Lashley/Edge would have been much better IMO.

Or could have just gone with some fatal 4 way for the Summerslam main event like (brock, roman, braun, joe) with (Roman vs AJ vs Seth vs Lashley/Edge/KO/Zayn/Balor). Atleast a well booked multi man main event is pretty good for a change and is arguably more entertaining than a traditional singles match.

I think we are just so much conditioned for pro wrestling that it's really hard for us to believe that an opponent could actually win the match in such circumstances. Like it's really hard to swerve the fans who have followed it for so long.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There's no doubt that they have alot of talent on their roster. But it goes back to the same thing. Only a handful of them have been pushed like stars.

There is alot of potential with WALTER if they let him be himself. Rollins is definitely a star. But the rest of the guys you mentioned have been damned to the midcard.

Owens who they resigned seemingly for millions of dollars is stuck in this idiotic midcard feud right out of early 90s WWF. McIntyre who should have been a main-event level star by now has done absolutely nothing of note since he lost the belt to Lashley. Lashley himself was just in feud with freakin Omos. And all they did was have one awful match after another.

I also seriously question how long they can even rely on their two biggest stars: Roman and Brock. Considering Brock is 44 and Roman may not have too many years left because of his health issues.

And watching SmackDown last night, just reaffirmed everything I had already known. It's back to the well for the umpteenth time, even though it makes no logical sense to have this match considering Roman beat Brock (the babyface) clean in the middle of the ring.

The next 6 months can be a great opportunity for them to create some new stars. Because as far as we know, Cody and Orton are both out for the remaining year. And chances are Roman and Brock will only be showing up for the big events. They can either phone it in like they have been, or they can actually seize this opportunity. And I don't even care if they push Madcap Moss. For once I'd like to see someone new in the main-event besides the same 5-6 guys.

WWE always seem to find a way as they have shown it in the past. Even if they don't, their company(profits etc which is basically what they only care about) isn't going to be hit with much losses atleast in short term. The name WWE alone will bring the casuals to the show.

I think Roman vs Rock is a done deal for Mania. Dwayne isn't doing any movies/shows during early part of next year. The thing is Roman vs Rock doesn't need titles to be on the line. If anything, the title stipulation is a give away for the result. I hope they can have Roman dropping atleast one belt prior to that to maybe Cody or Drew although it doesn't feel like happening.

Regarding Randy, I think at times WWE knowingly leak false info to get fans to think a certain guy would be out of action for said time.

I won't be surprised if Randy returns in 2-3 months.

 

[shaz619]

I think we might start hearing from Paige once her contract is up in a few weeks as well.

Yes but Y2J previously maintained how he sees US as Vince's territory and wouldn't do anything to upset him. Then after signing him AEW, he started leaking out his old frustrations like not getting a Universal title match against KO at Mania, trips not letting NXT talent for his rock n rager event, him not being seen as a main eventer anymore. During AEW's first year, he kept saying AEW doesn't need CM Punk yet is silent about it now. More recently, he also said how Tony is the best boss he's ever worked for. I remember him posting a photo with Trips on IG stating how they have put differences aside and have been brothers for years yet some time later when he appeared on BSS with Austin, he again referred to the wrestling rager event while referring to Trips as "powers that be" and not in good light.

All of that going back on his words and changing sides made me change my views about him to an extent. I think he's quite petty as a person and is very much like Paul Heymanesque in business-is-business schtick.

I still admire all of his work in pro wrestling and he's one of my all time favorites but he's sorta shown his true colors as well that he isn't much different from other guys in the business which has made me lose some respect for him. If it were 2018 when Y2J was working NJPW and WWE simultaneously or even during his AEW championship run, I would've had much higher respect for him. Now I can't say he is any different from other guys like trips etc.

I feel like there are very few genuine people in the whole pro wrestling industry which is already filled with a lot of weird characters. I guess pro wrestling is not the right industry to look for role models

Jericho is a genius at working the marks, going by the above you’ve said it’s abundantly clear what a troll he is lol I wouldn’t compare him with Paul E at all who still owes people money. The CM Punk stuff is legit because it’s consistent with what Jericho has said over the years, he never really liked him in the WWE and saw him as a guy who was too self righteous and forcing himself as the locker room leader on others etc but that was great because heat can create amazing chemistry in a feud. Jericho hasn’t ruined career’s like Hunter. The KO match at mania again, consistent with what has always been said and I totally agree with him, it was all doom and gloom after Berg ripped the title from big Kev, KO/Jericho feud was the best thing in wrestling that year and to be relegated to a dead spot on the card was harsh and it should have been for the title, Lesnar/Berg 3 did not need it. Jericho the person can be criticised for an opinion or something but unless am missing something I don’t think he has done anything to be put on a level playing field as some of the worst people in wrestling besides winding up a few marks

 

[shaz619]

It’s pretty cool that AJ Styles made a cameo appearance at Slammiversary, goosebumps there. A personified all time great and a guy who legit would force you to tune into a genuine alternative given how unique a performer he was

 

[shaz619]

No doubt O'Reilly and Cole have not been booked particularly well in AEW. But that said, they both have a higher ceiling in AEW than they did in WWE/NXT. Not only are both signed to long-term deals (5 or so years) but they will get to work with far diverse talent and whose to say that O'Reilly and Cole won't be maineventers a year or two later? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

To be fairly honest, I'm not the biggest fan of PAC. I mean he's good. But he ain't no Miro. Malakai Black with his B.S, UNdertaker rip-off stuff aside is also a far superior wrestler.

I don’t agree that they are working with a more diverse talent pool especially if that was meant as a compliment to the AEW roster because a big chunk of them are self-trained / have no producer to work with on their matches and the other thing is, there are too many performers who are similar or doing the same shtick. NXT provided more of a platform for the Undisputed era to work with a variety of performers all in different styles and weight divisions, on the main roster that is magnified in a different sense where they wont be exposed to as many wrestlers outside the WWE’s sphere but those coming through the performance centre to, it presents a unique challenge but beyond that there is a gifted crop of guys to work with and it all depends on booking again, Cole broke through that ceiling in NXT really it’s what made his signing so appealing to AEW and it was a matter of who he wanted to gamble with and with him going to AEW the expectation was for him to pick up where he left really, am not a massive fan of his but am surprised a multi skilled guy is not being utilised well, it comes down to the gap between his booking team in NXT and present, guys like Punk and Bryan are seasoned enough to get by with or without that support

I have a different opinion on PAC but if Miro is being rated higher then I still see it a positive because he rarely gets that praise, he certainly didn’t get enough in WWE despite being class as a ring performer

 

[shaz619]

No obviously not. The blame rests completely on creative and Vince. And its not like Roman has wrestled much anyway in the past two years. He has done most of the PPVs and house shows but on SD! he has largely been cutting promos. So its not like he can't do it. But its puzzling to me that WWE's biggest star in recent times usually tends to be the guy who barely shows up. Before it was Brock and now its Roman.

I'm sure they will make a ton of money. But Cena, Brock, Orton and even Reigns are not long-term solutions. How long are they going to keep relying on the same guys? They either need to refurbish someone like Drew who they have almost completely ruined, or they need to skyrocket someone like WALTER to the main-event.

Roman has largely been a regular though prior to WM this year, he has only been away for a few months maybe for the first time in his career where some time off has been granted for a non-health or injury specific reason. One thing overlooked is how much money WWE make on the road (they need to sell tickets without the SD/RAW branding, thus need an established draw to bring people in) and if he’s being kept off TV often moving forward, it’s two things; Roman agreeing fewer dates and second thing with Roman having established himself as a personified main eventer, he can be utilised as a special attraction. WWE’s schedule is brutal and not for everyone (this is where being a professional and ring Iq comes in big time to, you need to take bumps whilst minimising impact to your lower back etc and not take too many silly risks / matches have to be booked carefully to because you can’t work like the guys in Japan who have 20-25 single matches a year, AJ Styles is an innovator for me also because how incredible he is at taking bumps and taking care of himself even outside the company), besides that creatively you can lose your novelty pretty quickly if taken for granted.

I would love to see Walter/Gunther get that treatment and he is on the way there hopefully and as for stars, while I had my doubts; it seems WWE are genuinly positioning Cody as there next big main eventer and strapping a rocket behind his back, it speaks volumes that even with him being out for so long they had him go over in the match with Seth, Cody is going to get the Reigns/Cena/HHH super-man booking

 

[shaz619]

Sadly it seems Okada will be be missing the event. It's probably gonna be Bryan vs Zack Sabre Jr. and Jay White v Page v Cole

Ah not as excited for the event anymore then I know there are some decent matches booked but not dream encounters. Why is Okada missing the event?

In this situation I would have liked to see Bryan vs Tanahashi in the main event, that would be a dream encounter which we didn’t know we wanted

 

[Rajdeep]

This has to be the funniest segment in WWE's history. I still laugh as to this day

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Ah not as excited for the event anymore then I know there are some decent matches booked but not dream encounters. Why is Okada missing the event?

In this situation I would have liked to see Bryan vs Tanahashi in the main event, that would be a dream encounter which we didn’t know we wanted

From what I've heard its like his wife's birthday the next day.

Yeah I agree, Okada not being on the show is a big a bummer. But personally, I am still excited. Moxley has been trying to wrestle Tanahashi for atleast 2 years. But for one reason or another the match kept falling through. I'm certain that both guys will go out there and try to put on a great match.

Apart from that, I am actually really interested to see Ospreay vs Orange Cassidy just to see that dynamic and if Ospreay can get an great match out of Cassidy.

Miro v PAC v Malakai Black v (most likely) Tomohoro Ishii could be quite fun too.

Also feel like they are trying to do something with FTR and that's something that interests me too. Personally I would love if they just dominated tag team wrestling and had 'their year'. They already have the AAA and ROH belts. You can easily put the IWGP tag belts on them at this PPV and straddle them with a belt collector gimmick, which would be followed by them winning the AEW tag team belts. Which they hopefully win by beating the Bucks....but maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

WWE always seem to find a way as they have shown it in the past. Even if they don't, their company(profits etc which is basically what they only care about) isn't going to be hit with much losses atleast in short term. The name WWE alone will bring the casuals to the show.

I think Roman vs Rock is a done deal for Mania. Dwayne isn't doing any movies/shows during early part of next year. The thing is Roman vs Rock doesn't need titles to be on the line. If anything, the title stipulation is a give away for the result. I hope they can have Roman dropping atleast one belt prior to that to maybe Cody or Drew although it doesn't feel like happening.

Regarding Randy, I think at times WWE knowingly leak false info to get fans to think a certain guy would be out of action for said time.

I won't be surprised if Randy returns in 2-3 months.

See, I don't know if I agree with that. The way I see it, WWE has ben trash for most of the post 2006 period. They made some stars in that period and they were lucky to have stars from previous eras left over. But largely (according to me atleast) it was a bad product. I mean that's why I stopped watching for so many years. And even when I started watching again, I started by watching the old RA era stuff.

And even if you look at the stars they have made. How many have they really made? Post RA era they strapped a rocket on Cena's back and everything was about him. The two guys who really got over and became stars were Punk and Bryan. And they got over themselves. Not because of WWE. In the case of Bryan in particular, they tried repeatedly to bury him but the fans just wouldn't have it.

Post Cena, they tried and failed repeatedly and miserably to make a star out of Roman Reigns until he did what he wanted to do and became the biggest star in the company.

If you have faith in them than more power to you, but personally I have zero faith in them. I think they are going to keep phoning it in until SummerSlam or Survivor Series or Royal Rumble comes around. And as soon as those PPVs are over its going to be back to phoning it in.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don’t agree that they are working with a more diverse talent pool especially if that was meant as a compliment to the AEW roster because a big chunk of them are self-trained / have no producer to work with on their matches and the other thing is, there are too many performers who are similar or doing the same shtick. NXT provided more of a platform for the Undisputed era to work with a variety of performers all in different styles and weight divisions, on the main roster that is magnified in a different sense where they wont be exposed to as many wrestlers outside the WWE’s sphere but those coming through the performance centre to, it presents a unique challenge but beyond that there is a gifted crop of guys to work with and it all depends on booking again, Cole broke through that ceiling in NXT really it’s what made his signing so appealing to AEW and it was a matter of who he wanted to gamble with and with him going to AEW the expectation was for him to pick up where he left really, am not a massive fan of his but am surprised a multi skilled guy is not being utilised well, it comes down to the gap between his booking team in NXT and present, guys like Punk and Bryan are seasoned enough to get by with or without that support

I have a different opinion on PAC but if Miro is being rated higher then I still see it a positive because he rarely gets that praise, he certainly didn’t get enough in WWE despite being class as a ring performer

I'm not disputing the fact that AEW has a ton of untrained, green talent. But they also have a ton of great wrestling talent on their roster. Heck, they have half the NXT roster from 2015-19. And they also have young guys like Wardlow, Ricky Starks, Wheeler Yuta, Daniel Garcia, Hook who will be bonafide stars a few years from now.

I do agree with you that NXT was a better platform for these guys to showcase their talents because frankly there wasn't as much competition. But I am of the belief that the level of competition brings the best out of a person. And personally I believe that Kyle O'Reilly is good enough to be a main-event level star anywhere. Because he has that unique style and he can do well on promos too. With Cole the jury's still out for me.

And though NXT had alot of diverse talent, I feel AEW has more diverse talent just because of the variety of styles they showcase on their show. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but fact is that there is a place on their show for Lucha, Strong Style, Indierific stuff, the MMA-inspired style these guys themselves like to do and also just classical old school pro-wrestling. I don't recall seeing alot of Lucha or Japanese guys on NXT. And because of AEW's relationships with AAA and NJPW they can even bring in guys from other companies too, even if its for a week or two.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Roman has largely been a regular though prior to WM this year, he has only been away for a few months maybe for the first time in his career where some time off has been granted for a non-health or injury specific reason. One thing overlooked is how much money WWE make on the road (they need to sell tickets without the SD/RAW branding, thus need an established draw to bring people in) and if he’s being kept off TV often moving forward, it’s two things; Roman agreeing fewer dates and second thing with Roman having established himself as a personified main eventer, he can be utilised as a special attraction. WWE’s schedule is brutal and not for everyone (this is where being a professional and ring Iq comes in big time to, you need to take bumps whilst minimising impact to your lower back etc and not take too many silly risks / matches have to be booked carefully to because you can’t work like the guys in Japan who have 20-25 single matches a year, AJ Styles is an innovator for me also because how incredible he is at taking bumps and taking care of himself even outside the company), besides that creatively you can lose your novelty pretty quickly if taken for granted.

I would love to see Walter/Gunther get that treatment and he is on the way there hopefully and as for stars, while I had my doubts; it seems WWE are genuinly positioning Cody as there next big main eventer and strapping a rocket behind his back, it speaks volumes that even with him being out for so long they had him go over in the match with Seth, Cody is going to get the Reigns/Cena/HHH super-man booking

Personally, I'm not a fan of this special attraction stuff. I hated it when they started it with Brock way back in 2012 and I hated it even more when they decided to put the belt on him for 600+ days eventhough he showed up like 15 times in that 2 year period. I can understand it when they do it with guys like Goldberg, Batista, Taker, Rock and now Cena who simply can't work more than one or two matches a year because of their age or the fact that they are bigtime stars in Hollywood. But its not the same with Brock and Roman.

Personally I don't even care if he doesn't work house shows. But when you have both belts on him and he doesn't even show up on TV for a month, than that for me, is a slap on the face to the fans who pay their money and the talent who dream about holding those same belts one day.

Either, don't put both belts on him. Or, if you don't want him to wrestle that much, than don't have him wrestle that much. But atleast have him show up on TV even if its to cut promos. Based on the amount of money Reigns makes I find it hard to believe that he can't literally just take a private plane to SmackDown and leave as soon as the show is over like Brock is known to do.

For me, they are making a mockery of their own belts and destroying any semblance of logic or credibility that was left behind.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It’s pretty cool that AJ Styles made a cameo appearance at Slammiversary, goosebumps there. A personified all time great and a guy who legit would force you to tune into a genuine alternative given how unique a performer he was

I always thought AJ was great but I never thought he would end up being as great as he ended up getting by 2015/2016. I liked him alot in TNA, but I just wasn't that enamored by him as I was by Joe, Angle, Aries, Roode, Bully Ray. I think that run in Japan really took him to the next level. He had some amazing matches there. And when he reached WWE he was at his peak.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

See, I don't know if I agree with that. The way I see it, WWE has ben trash for most of the post 2006 period. They made some stars in that period and they were lucky to have stars from previous eras left over. But largely (according to me atleast) it was a bad product. I mean that's why I stopped watching for so many years. And even when I started watching again, I started by watching the old RA era stuff.

And even if you look at the stars they have made. How many have they really made? Post RA era they strapped a rocket on Cena's back and everything was about him. The two guys who really got over and became stars were Punk and Bryan. And they got over themselves. Not because of WWE. In the case of Bryan in particular, they tried repeatedly to bury him but the fans just wouldn't have it.

Post Cena, they tried and failed repeatedly and miserably to make a star out of Roman Reigns until he did what he wanted to do and became the biggest star in the company.

If you have faith in them than more power to you, but personally I have zero faith in them. I think they are going to keep phoning it in until SummerSlam or Survivor Series or Royal Rumble comes around. And as soon as those PPVs are over its going to be back to phoning it in.

I didn't say their product is good. I just said they will keep churning out profits because of the name value cause they are basically a corporate business company. Even if they don't have a big star, they'll keep making profits atleast in short term cause that's what they are good at. The kids will still watch it which is 90% of their fanbase. They sign guys who they think will appeal to kids. Even before Roman turned heel, the kids still loved his wretched face run.

 

[shaz619]

Personally, I'm not a fan of this special attraction stuff. I hated it when they started it with Brock way back in 2012 and I hated it even more when they decided to put the belt on him for 600+ days eventhough he showed up like 15 times in that 2 year period. I can understand it when they do it with guys like Goldberg, Batista, Taker, Rock and now Cena who simply can't work more than one or two matches a year because of their age or the fact that they are bigtime stars in Hollywood. But its not the same with Brock and Roman.

Personally I don't even care if he doesn't work house shows. But when you have both belts on him and he doesn't even show up on TV for a month, than that for me, is a slap on the face to the fans who pay their money and the talent who dream about holding those same belts one day.

Either, don't put both belts on him. Or, if you don't want him to wrestle that much, than don't have him wrestle that much. But atleast have him show up on TV even if its to cut promos. Based on the amount of money Reigns makes I find it hard to believe that he can't literally just take a private plane to SmackDown and leave as soon as the show is over like Brock is known to do.


For me, they are making a mockery of their own belts and destroying any semblance of logic or credibility that was left behind.

Brock certainly doesn’t need to work like a regular star or treated like one, he’s their insurance policy in a way to. If Brock was booked like a regular there is little value in that at this point, plus less is more for both parties and for longevity. Reigns is no where close to that schedule, he could sit out another 4 months and he still would have worked more single matches on TV/PPV then the IWGP champion has overall. Those criticising his leave don’t tune into the show regardless, it doesn’t impact their core fanbase and as I explained they use him as they like for the house shows which are a tougher sell then the episodic TV shows. Hypothetically they could split the titles which is not ideal or they can risk shoving the title down the throat of a talent which has not been built up for undisputed, another recipe for disaster. No talent has a tougher schedule then the E and the bulk of that responsibility is taken up by the champion, I am an advocate for an off season in the WWE world but there isn’t one and if a champion has agreed some leave it should be granted because their world is unlike any other, in any case I’ve found the programming intriguing ever since and subsequent appearance this week, genuinely felt their could be a title change during a spot or two, a rare feat to achieve in the ring right now when the outcome is the norm

 

[shaz619]

I'm not disputing the fact that AEW has a ton of untrained, green talent. But they also have a ton of great wrestling talent on their roster. Heck, they have half the NXT roster from 2015-19. And they also have young guys like Wardlow, Ricky Starks, Wheeler Yuta, Daniel Garcia, Hook who will be bonafide stars a few years from now.

I do agree with you that NXT was a better platform for these guys to showcase their talents because frankly there wasn't as much competition. But I am of the belief that the level of competition brings the best out of a person. And personally I believe that Kyle O'Reilly is good enough to be a main-event level star anywhere. Because he has that unique style and he can do well on promos too. With Cole the jury's still out for me.

And though NXT had alot of diverse talent, I feel AEW has more diverse talent just because of the variety of styles they showcase on their show. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but fact is that there is a place on their show for Lucha, Strong Style, Indierific stuff, the MMA-inspired style these guys themselves like to do and also just classical old school pro-wrestling. I don't recall seeing alot of Lucha or Japanese guys on NXT. And because of AEW's relationships with AAA and NJPW they can even bring in guys from other companies too, even if its for a week or two.

In terms of competition, there was plenty in that NXT of old, the roster was far superior if you take out the likes of Punk and Bryan when it comes to the main event drawing power. Top to bottom the roster was stellar including the pioneering women’s division. I don’t think it was competition primarily which propelled NXT to the top, nor do I think it would be the driving force for talent in AEW to get better, what set NXT apart from the rest was the world class performance centre, people like William Regal, high level / competent producers and shrewd booking team. Speaking of Jap talent, they bought in Jushin Thunder Liger and actually had some of the greatest modern Japanese wrestlers of all time on their pay roll in KENTA and Nakamura, honestly night and day comparison and it’s more emphasised by how the NXT talent they have inherited isn’t presented as well, they have time to improve that providing their utilise their available resources but at the moment, there is nothing for me to really get behind apart from the seasoned vets, the programming lacks professionalism and structure, the womens division is weak and there is no method to the madness, if Punk or Bryan are not on, or MJF is not there and now Cody has left, all I got to look forward to is spot fests, and see big guys try to wrestle like crusers and other talent who as MJF said try to kill themselves for a cheap pop to mask their flaws and it’s not ideal if AEW plan to go on the road at some point due to the injury risk. With the knowledge available I struggle to see why the product is the way it is, this isn’t a system which a wrestler is going to thrive in from the ground up. I do agree the talent pool itself is poor because you can go from some truly shocking decision making in the ring to a performer like Bryan

 

[shaz619]

^^talent pool is diverse*

 

[shaz619]

I always thought AJ was great but I never thought he would end up being as great as he ended up getting by 2015/2016. I liked him alot in TNA, but I just wasn't that enamored by him as I was by Joe, Angle, Aries, Roode, Bully Ray. I think that run in Japan really took him to the next level. He had some amazing matches there. And when he reached WWE he was at his peak.

You may have been in the minority because the stuff this guy was pulling was breathtaking, Styles was the most innovative high flyer since Rey Mysterio Jnr and he also happened to have one hell of a ring IQ, Styles also knew how to take bumps which ensured he was able to compete more regularly and his psychology helped to. In the ring there was never really a debate, I wasn’t surprised by how he adapted in Europe and Asia, if there was a jury out on this guy it was maybe on the personality side but he put that to bed close to the end of the decade when he turned heel, that run gave him great confidence in his mic ability I think that year he may have become first TNA wrestler to become PWI no.1 in 2010, Styles thrived despite some truly shocking booking. Honestly, if he was in his early peak/prime now and working somewhere other then the E, marks would call him the best ever in history

 

[shaz619]

Styles became IWGP champion I believe in his first or second match in New Japan during the 2015 stint, the booker Gado reinforced what both fans and industry experts always saw in him. The run itself didn’t develop AJ or add a new layer to his bow, he was champion as he came in, he was there to elevate the rest and add more to his resume. The biggest test was always going to be in the E, late into his 30s and even with his vast experience and skills, some may have questioned his success but I personally had no doubt and that belief must have been magnified in the eyes of Vince when he had that first match with Reigns against a champion with enormous heat with the fans

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You may have been in the minority because the stuff this guy was pulling was breathtaking, Styles was the most innovative high flyer since Rey Mysterio Jnr and he also happened to have one hell of a ring IQ, Styles also knew how to take bumps which ensured he was able to compete more regularly and his psychology helped to. In the ring there was never really a debate, I wasn’t surprised by how he adapted in Europe and Asia, if there was a jury out on this guy it was maybe on the personality side but he put that to bed close to the end of the decade when he turned heel, that run gave him great confidence in his mic ability I think that year he may have become first TNA wrestler to become PWI no.1 in 2010, Styles thrived despite some truly shocking booking. Honestly, if he was in his early peak/prime now and working somewhere other then the E, marks would call him the best ever in history

I may have been. But I think a big reason why myself and other people were not taking AJ seriously enough in TNA was bad booking and lack of personality on the mic, as you mentioned. There's no denying that he was having great matches even then. I think there was a three way at one of TNA's earliest PPVs between him, Daniels and Joe that was off the charts. And then when Angle came in he had that amazing Last Man Standing match with him that had some very confusing rules. But personally, I remember (a) being really sick of his never-ending feud with Christopher Daniels and (b) getting sick of the idiotic angles and feuds he was booked in. There was that egregious Claire Lynch storyline, they saddled him with a losing streak at one point I think and by the end of his run they were even ripping off Punk's WWE storyline by having him play the role of Punk in TNA. All of it contributed to me not taking him particularly seriously.

But when he got to Japan; he looked like a main-eventer, the matches (in my opinion atleast) were vastly superior to what he was doing in TNA. And he had a much needed fresh coat of paint on him. Personally I was blown away by some of the matches he had with Okada, Ibushi, Nakamura. It made me see him in a completely different light. Because truth be told, I never thought he would ever be a main-eventer in WWE when he was in TNA. And he continued that when he got to WWE, especially in that iconic feud with Cena.

I think based on the last 7 years he has easily cemented himself as an ATG. He's wrestled just about everywhere and won just about every belt there is to win. I would like to see him in AEW one day
but considering the fact that he likes the WWE schedule and the money he makes there, he might not want to do that. And that's perfectly fine too.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In terms of competition, there was plenty in that NXT of old, the roster was far superior if you take out the likes of Punk and Bryan when it comes to the main event drawing power. Top to bottom the roster was stellar including the pioneering women’s division. I don’t think it was competition primarily which propelled NXT to the top, nor do I think it would be the driving force for talent in AEW to get better, what set NXT apart from the rest was the world class performance centre, people like William Regal, high level / competent producers and shrewd booking team. Speaking of Jap talent, they bought in Jushin Thunder Liger and actually had some of the greatest modern Japanese wrestlers of all time on their pay roll in KENTA and Nakamura, honestly night and day comparison and it’s more emphasised by how the NXT talent they have inherited isn’t presented as well, they have time to improve that providing their utilise their available resources but at the moment, there is nothing for me to really get behind apart from the seasoned vets, the programming lacks professionalism and structure, the womens division is weak and there is no method to the madness, if Punk or Bryan are not on, or MJF is not there and now Cody has left, all I got to look forward to is spot fests, and see big guys try to wrestle like crusers and other talent who as MJF said try to kill themselves for a cheap pop to mask their flaws and it’s not ideal if AEW plan to go on the road at some point due to the injury risk. With the knowledge available I struggle to see why the product is the way it is, this isn’t a system which a wrestler is going to thrive in from the ground up. I do agree the talent pool itself is poor because you can go from some truly shocking decision making in the ring to a performer like Bryan

I'm not saying that NXT didn't have a great roster pretty much through and through 2015 onwards. But let's be real here. NXT never had a Punk or Bryan, or even a Moxley or Jericho. Even Omega, regardless of what you may think of him was arguably NJPW's biggest star when he left there. These are massive names that go a long way in shifting the perception of your organization. Just Punk and Bryan alone are arguably two of the biggest stars of the 2010s.

AEW's programming does leave alot to be desired when the big guns are not on. But I don't agree with you that its all spotfests or indierific talent trying to do indierific stuff. Just last week you had Will Ospreay wrestling Dax Hardwood in an incredible wrestling match that would have popped any wrestling crowd on the planet. The problem is that the show is too schizophrenic and the booker doesn't have the balls to stand up to certain guys on his payroll and tell them that their angle or segment is bad. Jericho in particular has really started going downhill in a big way. He can still come up with interesting, out of the box stuff and great matches from time to time, just because he is Jericho. But largely the stuff he has been doing in the last 2 years has been quite bad. And he is all over the show now that Punk and Bryan are out.

But that said, I have no problem saying that AEW has the best crop of young talent of any major pro-wrestling company right now. And I can bet my bottom dollar that guys like Wardlow, Garcia, Yuta, Starks, Hook, Powerhouse Hobbs will be massive stars years from now that any wrestling company in the world would want to sign. And one thing I really appreciate about them is that they do try to make stars which is not something I can say for WWE.

Just look at Wheeler Yuta. When he came on AEW TV a year ago, he looked like any other job guy you see on TV every week. He wore freakin joggers, wore colorful tights and was in a stable with comedy wrestlers. Now he is serious, he has had a number of good to great matches and he is in a stable with William Regal, Jon Moxley and Bryan Danielson. And it didn't just happen overnight. They told a story with the guy that culminated in an awesome match on Rampage with Moxley where Moxley didn't just elevate him but made a star out of him.

AEW is far from perfect but (a) they have Punk and Danielson, two of the biggest stars in wrestling from the last 20+ years. And (b) they are trying to create their own stars. And those are two things that will keep me interested in their product, where I will even be willing to sit through the bad stuff.

 

[shaz619]

I'm not saying that NXT didn't have a great roster pretty much through and through 2015 onwards. But let's be real here. NXT never had a Punk or Bryan, or even a Moxley or Jericho. Even Omega, regardless of what you may think of him was arguably NJPW's biggest star when he left there. These are massive names that go a long way in shifting the perception of your organization. Just Punk and Bryan alone are arguably two of the biggest stars of the 2010s.

AEW's programming does leave alot to be desired when the big guns are not on. But I don't agree with you that its all spotfests or indierific talent trying to do indierific stuff. Just last week you had Will Ospreay wrestling Dax Hardwood in an incredible wrestling match that would have popped any wrestling crowd on the planet. The problem is that the show is too schizophrenic and the booker doesn't have the balls to stand up to certain guys on his payroll and tell them that their angle or segment is bad. Jericho in particular has really started going downhill in a big way. He can still come up with interesting, out of the box stuff and great matches from time to time, just because he is Jericho. But largely the stuff he has been doing in the last 2 years has been quite bad. And he is all over the show now that Punk and Bryan are out.

But that said, I have no problem saying that AEW has the best crop of young talent of any major pro-wrestling company right now. And I can bet my bottom dollar that guys like Wardlow, Garcia, Yuta, Starks, Hook, Powerhouse Hobbs will be massive stars years from now that any wrestling company in the world would want to sign. And one thing I really appreciate about them is that they do try to make stars which is not something I can say for WWE.

Just look at Wheeler Yuta. When he came on AEW TV a year ago, he looked like any other job guy you see on TV every week. He wore freakin joggers, wore colorful tights and was in a stable with comedy wrestlers. Now he is serious, he has had a number of good to great matches and he is in a stable with William Regal, Jon Moxley and Bryan Danielson. And it didn't just happen overnight. They told a story with the guy that culminated in an awesome match on Rampage with Moxley where Moxley didn't just elevate him but made a star out of him.

AEW is far from perfect but (a) they have Punk and Danielson, two of the biggest stars in wrestling from the last 20+ years. And (b) they are trying to create their own stars. And those are two things that will keep me interested in their product, where I will even be willing to sit through the bad stuff.

NXT never required an established north American name because that wasn’t what the show was about, the idea was to elevate guys coming through the performance centre and be flexible with their recruitment policy so talent got exposure to different styles and performers, those who came in would also get the chance to get a unique outlook in a structured TV oriented environment with high quality production. Some of those names were either injured, out of wrestling or on the main-roster. Both Punk even with his issues with Darth Burius and Bryan were both massive fans of NXT and the programming, we saw consistency in the mens and womens division and there was a great deal of focus on their tag team to, AEW inherited a big chunk the great talent they have from that professional set up, what they do with them is a different ball game and just giving anyone a push without much of a plan or emphasis on what do in the ring can be just as damaging as not doing anything at all dependent on AEW’s objectives and who they wish to appeal to. I do agree if we look at their main fanbase of those who are burned out with WWE then all they do is brilliant, there is not much to improve on that front everything is very receptive for that crowd

Both Punk and Bryan can take care of their own creative, but you need a coherent and professional team of bookers and producers to change perception overall, they are good guys to have for eyeballs but to encourage the audience to stay it takes more then that as AEW should have learned by now. Moxley I don’t really rate and he’s not a guy I’d be going up to for advice both in or out of the ring, Jericho is obviously a big name and can add great value in any capacity.

Yuta is a great worker, Starks has potential to be a great star because he’s a great personality, another guy poached from NWA Powerr which I recommended, his studio promos were brilliant. Darby Allin has potential to, needs to get a big bigger to though as smaller guys before him have done so, I know physique is not as important in the company but it’s important they can’t let stars let themselves go and become unprofessional. Wardlow I still struggle to see why he is popular but it’s a big call to say a big chunk of those names will be big stars one day, I just don’t see a lot in their work which suggests that apart from Starks and Darby Allin perhaps who am not a massive fan of but I see aspects of his work which are really good but he needs to make better choices in the ring and add muscle to be taken a bit more seriously.

 

[shaz619]

I may have been. But I think a big reason why myself and other people were not taking AJ seriously enough in TNA was bad booking and lack of personality on the mic, as you mentioned. There's no denying that he was having great matches even then. I think there was a three way at one of TNA's earliest PPVs between him, Daniels and Joe that was off the charts. And then when Angle came in he had that amazing Last Man Standing match with him that had some very confusing rules. But personally, I remember (a) being really sick of his never-ending feud with Christopher Daniels and (b) getting sick of the idiotic angles and feuds he was booked in. There was that egregious Claire Lynch storyline, they saddled him with a losing streak at one point I think and by the end of his run they were even ripping off Punk's WWE storyline by having him play the role of Punk in TNA. All of it contributed to me not taking him particularly seriously.

But when he got to Japan; he looked like a main-eventer, the matches (in my opinion atleast) were vastly superior to what he was doing in TNA. And he had a much needed fresh coat of paint on him. Personally I was blown away by some of the matches he had with Okada, Ibushi, Nakamura. It made me see him in a completely different light. Because truth be told, I never thought he would ever be a main-eventer in WWE when he was in TNA. And he continued that when he got to WWE, especially in that iconic feud with Cena.

I think based on the last 7 years he has easily cemented himself as an ATG. He's wrestled just about everywhere and won just about every belt there is to win. I would like to see him in AEW one day
but considering the fact that he likes the WWE schedule and the money he makes there, he might not want to do that. And that's perfectly fine too.

Well before that short stint in Japan, AJ Styles was a guy who marks got excited about potentially signing with WWE, despite the inconsistent booking or even the doubts on his mic work, he passed the eye test as someone who had the X factor and was special in the ring. For me Angle vs Shawn is the best match I’ve ever seen and in the eyes of Angle who worked with both, said AJ was more athletic and someone who made it even easier in the ring for him, that’s massive praise. To thrive and be regarded as an all time great performer amidst the adversity that can come in the form of horrible booking is a remarkable quality from a legacy POV, he wasn’t the first in history to have to overcome that either, Benoit, Jericho, Bret and even Shawn had a similar perception at some point in their careers but the quality of their work was admired despite that. His run in Japan was no where near as the defining moment which elevated his status remotely, as for his ring work it comes down to preference because you can’t work the same way in different continents but AJ’s work in America is still regarded as innovative, Styles had success at the highest level in both continents and very few can say that, he was there to take their talent to another level because if we look at the actual challenge of working a great match in Japan, the circumstances are predominately in your favour, booking is fairly consistent, for a foreigner not as much character work required and you are guaranteed to work with the best workers in the company, and despite that there are many matches he had in TNA which I rate higher.

 

[shaz619]

I'm not saying that NXT didn't have a great roster pretty much through and through 2015 onwards. But let's be real here. NXT never had a Punk or Bryan, or even a Moxley or Jericho. Even Omega, regardless of what you may think of him was arguably NJPW's biggest star when he left there. These are massive names that go a long way in shifting the perception of your organization. Just Punk and Bryan alone are arguably two of the biggest stars of the 2010s.

AEW's programming does leave alot to be desired when the big guns are not on. But I don't agree with you that its all spotfests or indierific talent trying to do indierific stuff. Just last week you had Will Ospreay wrestling Dax Hardwood in an incredible wrestling match that would have popped any wrestling crowd on the planet. The problem is that the show is too schizophrenic and the booker doesn't have the balls to stand up to certain guys on his payroll and tell them that their angle or segment is bad. Jericho in particular has really started going downhill in a big way. He can still come up with interesting, out of the box stuff and great matches from time to time, just because he is Jericho. But largely the stuff he has been doing in the last 2 years has been quite bad. And he is all over the show now that Punk and Bryan are out.

But that said, I have no problem saying that AEW has the best crop of young talent of any major pro-wrestling company right now. And I can bet my bottom dollar that guys like Wardlow, Garcia, Yuta, Starks, Hook, Powerhouse Hobbs will be massive stars years from now that any wrestling company in the world would want to sign. And one thing I really appreciate about them is that they do try to make stars which is not something I can say for WWE.

Just look at Wheeler Yuta. When he came on AEW TV a year ago, he looked like any other job guy you see on TV every week. He wore freakin joggers, wore colorful tights and was in a stable with comedy wrestlers. Now he is serious, he has had a number of good to great matches and he is in a stable with William Regal, Jon Moxley and Bryan Danielson. And it didn't just happen overnight. They told a story with the guy that culminated in an awesome match on Rampage with Moxley where Moxley didn't just elevate him but made a star out of him.

AEW is far from perfect but (a) they have Punk and Danielson, two of the biggest stars in wrestling from the last 20+ years. And (b) they are trying to create their own stars. And those are two things that will keep me interested in their product, where I will even be willing to sit through the bad stuff.

I could be wrong but rather then utilise the knowledge available most of the time, Tony Khan thinks he’s Vince McMahon and writes the shows while the others are happy to shut up while the dollar bills keep coming.

Speaking of Ospreay, he’s not considered the best british wrestler in the world and the hype on him is ridiculous. A decent high flyer who is not capable of adjusting his style for the top of the card and finds himself on the shelf time and time again, dude needs to restrain himself and think more about his work then soundbites

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

NXT never required an established north American name because that wasn’t what the show was about, the idea was to elevate guys coming through the performance centre and be flexible with their recruitment policy so talent got exposure to different styles and performers, those who came in would also get the chance to get a unique outlook in a structured TV oriented environment with high quality production. Some of those names were either injured, out of wrestling or on the main-roster. Both Punk even with his issues with Darth Burius and Bryan were both massive fans of NXT and the programming, we saw consistency in the mens and womens division and there was a great deal of focus on their tag team to, AEW inherited a big chunk the great talent they have from that professional set up, what they do with them is a different ball game and just giving anyone a push without much of a plan or emphasis on what do in the ring can be just as damaging as not doing anything at all dependent on AEW’s objectives and who they wish to appeal to. I do agree if we look at their main fanbase of those who are burned out with WWE then all they do is brilliant, there is not much to improve on that front everything is very receptive for that crowd

Both Punk and Bryan can take care of their own creative, but you need a coherent and professional team of bookers and producers to change perception overall, they are good guys to have for eyeballs but to encourage the audience to stay it takes more then that as AEW should have learned by now. Moxley I don’t really rate and he’s not a guy I’d be going up to for advice both in or out of the ring, Jericho is obviously a big name and can add great value in any capacity.

Yuta is a great worker, Starks has potential to be a great star because he’s a great personality, another guy poached from NWA Powerr which I recommended, his studio promos were brilliant. Darby Allin has potential to, needs to get a big bigger to though as smaller guys before him have done so, I know physique is not as important in the company but it’s important they can’t let stars let themselves go and become unprofessional. Wardlow I still struggle to see why he is popular but it’s a big call to say a big chunk of those names will be big stars one day, I just don’t see a lot in their work which suggests that apart from Starks and Darby Allin perhaps who am not a massive fan of but I see aspects of his work which are really good but he needs to make better choices in the ring and add muscle to be taken a bit more seriously.

I get that. But for a long period of time both shows were on equal footing. They had similar number of viewers and were competing head to head every Wednesday as well. So I think that if we are comparing them than the comparison has to be in every area.

I agree that NXT was definitely a more professionally run set-up with a clearly mapped out chain of command. And undoubtedly that is something AEW needs to learn from. But it was essentially like a territory where guys came and went barring the regulars. The established names did not have to face the kind of competition they will face in AEW where there are a number of big names in the main-event picture now.

My point regarding Moxley was not about his ability but his name value. As an ex-WWE guy who was also their World Champion at one point, he brought alot of name value and legitimacy to AEW.

Well agree to disagree I guess. But I do feel that if you saw more of their work than maybe you might have a different opinion. Wardlow has been largely protected through squash matches because he had no prior wrestling experience before coming to AEW. But you still see little things that stand-out with him and other guys. In his case, its his athleticism, which is incredible for a guy of his size. And his facials are also amazing and something you expect to see from a top babyface. Daniel Garcia has all the potential in the world to be a world-class technical wrestler. Already he is a very good technical wrestler. And let's be honest, if Bryan Danielson sees something in you than you know you've got something. He is someone who probably needs to add some size but his selling and facials are amazing for someone who has been in the business for such a short time.

The reason I left out Darby is not because I don't see him being a star but because I don't see him being someone that every wrestling promotion would want to sign. I mean I can never see him making it in WWE. And that's not a knock on him. He is a special talent in his own way. But the other guys I mentioned by comparison have something that can help them succeed anywhere.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I could be wrong but rather then utilise the knowledge available most of the time, Tony Khan thinks he’s Vince McMahon and writes the shows while the others are happy to shut up while the dollar bills keep coming.

Speaking of Ospreay, he’s not considered the best british wrestler in the world and the hype on him is ridiculous. A decent high flyer who is not capable of adjusting his style for the top of the card and finds himself on the shelf time and time again, dude needs to restrain himself and think more about his work then soundbites

Agree to disagree again I guess haha. Based on everything I have seen of Ospreay, I think he's incredible, truly one-of-a-kind and personally I am a big fan. I do wish he would dial down some of the stuff he does because it looks extremely dangerous. But at the end of the day he can put on great matches and the one he had with Dax last week might honestly be one of the best ones I've ever seen on Dynamite. But hey, that's just me.

 

[shaz619]

Agree to disagree again I guess haha. Based on everything I have seen of Ospreay, I think he's incredible, truly one-of-a-kind and personally I am a big fan. I do wish he would dial down some of the stuff he does because it looks extremely dangerous. But at the end of the day he can put on great matches and the one he had with Dax last week might honestly be one of the best ones I've ever seen on Dynamite. But hey, that's just me.

I’ve watched his matches which Dave rated as 5*+ with Okada and how he is better then Shawn etc and one of the best ever, that was a while back and I was expecting this guy to be special and am not just focusing on his high spots because the creativity is insane but when you keep getting injured, your judgement is in question and I’ve not appreciated his work as much as other countrymen, I will watch that match though

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well before that short stint in Japan, AJ Styles was a guy who marks got excited about potentially signing with WWE, despite the inconsistent booking or even the doubts on his mic work, he passed the eye test as someone who had the X factor and was special in the ring. For me Angle vs Shawn is the best match I’ve ever seen and in the eyes of Angle who worked with both, said AJ was more athletic and someone who made it even easier in the ring for him, that’s massive praise. To thrive and be regarded as an all time great performer amidst the adversity that can come in the form of horrible booking is a remarkable quality from a legacy POV, he wasn’t the first in history to have to overcome that either, Benoit, Jericho, Bret and even Shawn had a similar perception at some point in their careers but the quality of their work was admired despite that. His run in Japan was no where near as the defining moment which elevated his status remotely, as for his ring work it comes down to preference because you can’t work the same way in different continents but AJ’s work in America is still regarded as innovative, Styles had success at the highest level in both continents and very few can say that, he was there to take their talent to another level because if we look at the actual challenge of working a great match in Japan, the circumstances are predominately in your favour, booking is fairly consistent, for a foreigner not as much character work required and you are guaranteed to work with the best workers in the company, and despite that there are many matches he had in TNA which I rate higher.

That's a great point you made about AJ (along with others) overcoming their perception as smaller guys. I think when you're that good nothing can stop you from reaching the top. And when I think about it, it is remarkable that AJ overcame all the B.S booking that he was a victim of in TNA for years and years. What's even more interesting is that out of all the guys you named, AJ was probably the smallest in-terms of height.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite AJ matches in TNA? A couple of favorites of mine that I forgot to mention:

The Last Man Standing match that he had with Bully Ray at Slammiversary. Which again, showed me how talented he was because he got a great match out of Bully Ray, who according to his own admission was neither trained properly nor is a good wrestler in any way shape or form.

And the tag team match at Slammiversary a year later featuring him and Angle against Daniels and Kazarian. Which to this day is probably one of my all-time favorite tag team matches.

 

[shaz619]

I get that. But for a long period of time both shows were on equal footing. They had similar number of viewers and were competing head to head every Wednesday as well. So I think that if we are comparing them than the comparison has to be in every area.

I agree that NXT was definitely a more professionally run set-up with a clearly mapped out chain of command. And undoubtedly that is something AEW needs to learn from. But it was essentially like a territory where guys came and went barring the regulars. The established names did not have to face the kind of competition they will face in AEW where there are a number of big names in the main-event picture now.

My point regarding Moxley was not about his ability but his name value. As an ex-WWE guy who was also their World Champion at one point, he brought alot of name value and legitimacy to AEW.

Well agree to disagree I guess. But I do feel that if you saw more of their work than maybe you might have a different opinion. Wardlow has been largely protected through squash matches because he had no prior wrestling experience before coming to AEW. But you still see little things that stand-out with him and other guys. In his case, its his athleticism, which is incredible for a guy of his size. And his facials are also amazing and something you expect to see from a top babyface. Daniel Garcia has all the potential in the world to be a world-class technical wrestler. Already he is a very good technical wrestler. And let's be honest, if Bryan Danielson sees something in you than you know you've got something. He is someone who probably needs to add some size but his selling and facials are amazing for someone who has been in the business for such a short time.

The reason I left out Darby is not because I don't see him being a star but because I don't see him being someone that every wrestling promotion would want to sign. I mean I can never see him making it in WWE. And that's not a knock on him. He is a special talent in his own way. But the other guys I mentioned by comparison have something that can help them succeed anywhere.

Once those draws were hired on the viewership side NXT wasn’t going to compete plus AEW had the shiny new toy vibe while we had experienced NXT at its very best on multiple of occasions and the quality/consistency looking back was taken for granted really, I can’t believe we had a show like that, and it didn’t even have the big names but created new stars which have gone on to have success in different promotions.

I would still say booking is more pivotal then competition, NXT still had it’s regulars in the main event scene up until the talent moved up but the mid card was very strong to the point the NA title was introduced. I feel we attribute too much success with the main event scene, but if the mid card is strong with an excellent talent pool and your stuff is being showcased and executed as well as it could be that’s still a big plus, the Takeovers rarely had a bad match on the card and was a reflection of the consistency in booking. So for AEW I say hurdle is the backstage team and tbh their main event scene isn’t as inflexible as WWE’s, there is more chance to break through

I never really thought about Darby working for the E, it would be a challenge at the top but not impossible, how many wrestlers have a mindset as ruthless as Bryan’s though

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Once those draws were hired on the viewership side NXT wasn’t going to compete plus AEW had the shiny new toy vibe while we had experienced NXT at its very best on multiple of occasions and the quality/consistency looking back was taken for granted really, I can’t believe we had a show like that, and it didn’t even have the big names but created new stars which have gone on to have success in different promotions.

I would still say booking is more pivotal then competition, NXT still had it’s regulars in the main event scene up until the talent moved up but the mid card was very strong to the point the NA title was introduced. I feel we attribute too much success with the main event scene, but if the mid card is strong with an excellent talent pool and your stuff is being showcased and executed as well as it could be that’s still a big plus, the Takeovers rarely had a bad match on the card and was a reflection of the consistency in booking. So for AEW I say hurdle is the backstage team and tbh their main event scene isn’t as inflexible as WWE’s, there is more chance to break through

I never really thought about Darby working for the E, it would be a challenge at the top but not impossible, how many wrestlers have a mindset as ruthless as Bryan’s though

I don't wanna discredit what NXT did. Because if you think about it, AEW is really a symptom of a number of things. Namely, ROH in 2017-18, the All In PPV, the buzz associated with WrestleKingdom 12 back in 2018, but also NXT. Without all these things being as successful as they were, I don't see AEW existing. So I'm not gonna try to bring NXT down because I really loved it too. But again, I would say AEW has a pretty strong midcard too. The problem is that you have a guy who is inexperienced interms of booking and does not know how to utilize guys properly. So in that regard I agree with you as well. But even with TK the thing that gives me hope is that he has learned from many of his past mistakes and does seem to be proactive towards certain valid criticisms that people level against his company. At the end of the day, I do have sympathy for him and am willing to cut him some slack because it isn't easy to build a successful national wrestling company. Very few people in history actually have. Especially in this day and age when people by in large don't care about wrestling and when the competition outmatches you by just abut every metric. But I agree that, that's a fair criticism and something that needs to improve.

I don't know man, its not just the mindset for me. Bryan was still about 197-200 pounds even back then and his height should be around 5'8. Darby is like 140-150 and stands at 5'6. If anyone who didn't watch wrestling saw him, I doubt they would ever think he is a wrestler. Obviously none of this stuff bothers me because I have seen him wrestle. But to a guy like Vince---who according to numerous people has never seen any type of wrestling other than his own---he is more likely to stand out as a gimmick he can have fun with rather than a successful main-event guy. Infact I seriously question if Darby can even be a midcarder in WWE. Because in recent times they have only doubled down on this mindset rather than change with the times.

 

[shaz619]

That's a great point you made about AJ (along with others) overcoming their perception as smaller guys. I think when you're that good nothing can stop you from reaching the top. And when I think about it, it is remarkable that AJ overcame all the B.S booking that he was a victim of in TNA for years and years. What's even more interesting is that out of all the guys you named, AJ was probably the smallest in-terms of height.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite AJ matches in TNA? A couple of favorites of mine that I forgot to mention:

The Last Man Standing match that he had with Bully Ray at Slammiversary. Which again, showed me how talented he was because he got a great match out of Bully Ray, who according to his own admission was neither trained properly nor is a good wrestler in any way shape or form.

And the tag team match at Slammiversary a year later featuring him and Angle against Daniels and Kazarian. Which to this day is probably one of my all-time favorite tag team matches.

He was very small compared to the rest at the top of the card but began a physical transformation in the early 2010’s when he started lifting weights, Bryan would do so during his WWE career. I get Darby is the way he’s but he can surely improve on his current state though, plus he’s a good enough worker not to need to take to the skies so frequently so shouldn’t worry about losing his centre of gravity when he puts on muscle

Ah man that’s a question if there ever was one, I need to revisit some of those matches to give a proper answer. The GOAT match will always be regarded as the iconic triple threat at Unbreakable (btw the revisit at Turning Point a few years later was pretty good to). For me personally, it’s subjective and maybe the matches may not be to everyone’s taste but those weekly PPV’s under the NWA umbrella which first showcased Styles in TNA are maybe my favourite matches which involved the likes of Low Ki, Jerry Lyn and David Young, maybe the matches itself perhaps were not on the level we would get later am not sure I have see it again, but it was the first time I saw AJ and was blown away by his individual performance and skillset, he passed the eye test immediately. You know how you may feel now with the stuff outside WWE, just see it as my first exposure to a legit alternative and my first proper wrestling experience was the AE era which was a blur but then in the early 2000’s I’d say I was really into it and it was alien to assume a world existed outside the E with the WCW going under, so to see Styles perform in a way which I’d not seen from any other wrestler at the time, his innovative offence especially was breathtaking and orgasmic lmao I get goosebumps thinking about that time

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

He was very small compared to the rest at the top of the card but began a physical transformation in the early 2010’s when he started lifting weights, Bryan would do so during his WWE career. I get Darby is the way he’s but he can surely improve on his current state though, plus he’s a good enough worker not to need to take to the skies so frequently so shouldn’t worry about losing his centre of gravity when he puts on muscle

Ah man that’s a question if there ever was one, I need to revisit some of those matches to give a proper answer. The GOAT match will always be regarded as the iconic triple threat at Unbreakable (btw the revisit at Turning Point a few years later was pretty good to). For me personally, it’s subjective and maybe the matches may not be to everyone’s taste but those weekly PPV’s under the NWA umbrella which first showcased Styles in TNA are maybe my favourite matches which involved the likes of Low Ki, Jerry Lyn and David Young, maybe the matches itself perhaps were not on the level we would get later am not sure I have see it again, but it was the first time I saw AJ and was blown away by his individual performance and skillset, he passed the eye test immediately. You know how you may feel now with the stuff outside WWE, just see it as my first exposure to a legit alternative and my first proper wrestling experience was the AE era which was a blur but then in the early 2000’s I’d say I was really into it and it was alien to assume a world existed outside the E with the WCW going under, so to see Styles perform in a way which I’d not seen from any other wrestler at the time, his innovative offence especially was breathtaking and orgasmic lmao I get goosebumps thinking about that time

That's really interesting and cool to hear. I'll definitely check out those early TNA Asylum PPVs. I've seen TNA from 2005 onwards but that is definitely a big blindspot for me and a number of people have told me that there are some great matches on there that I should see.