The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[shaz619]

Tbh, I think Mox's promo work has come a long way from "I'm a Sick Guy". He has alot more bass in his voice and what I really like about his promos is that he can get his point across really well even when he is alluding to stuff and deliberately trying to not be direct. One of the best examples in recent times was right before he went to rehab and he was teasing a heel turn in his promos without outright doing or saying something heelish. And then ofcourse its the delivery too...that slightly unhinged Jake/Mankind way of talking. So for me, he is still one of the best promos in the business because nobody does promos like him. But its like he just can't move out of that minor league, indie, deathmatch mindset.

Just look at him right now. He is AEW's World Champion at a time when guys are literally dropping like flies because of injuries. He is pretty much the only major name left standing right now that they can draw big matches and ratings off. And later this month he's going to be back at Garbage Championship Wrestling defending their title. What happens if he gets injured going through a glassdoor or mutilating himself? Back in the day the World Champion of a major promotion had a responsibility to try his best to not get hurt. This feels like going out of your way to do so. And for what? A f***kin' two bit deathmatch promotion that draws 200 people in a barn....on a big show!

Terry was atleast himself through and through. Chris has seemingly gotten rid of all the best aspects of his personality that made him a wrestling genius for years and years. It's like all those instincts are just gone. His stuff usually feels like a watered down version of Attitude Era WWE. I had high hopes from this Jericho Appreciation Society stable because for the first couple of weeks it was fairly good. But now even this has basically become a rehash of Inner Circle.

He’s ok but not as good as he could be imo I rarely will go out of my way to listen to what he has to say, I did when he came back and that was good, but again he diminishes himself with his antics. I find Jericho less offensive but if he is as bad as what you say, then he is plagued by the same issue as the others, not everyone can consistently produce the goods when given a blank page. He has been there a while so perhaps just isn’t as inspired as his first 18 months or so.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I can't be sure but it seems to be like TK is very close to finalizing a TV deal for ROH.

Besides the fact that they have changed the logo, added ROH merch to their store, they are also doing another ROH PPV later this month.

And speaking of the PPV, Death Before Dishonor looks like another potentially great wrestling PPV. The rematch that everyone is dying to see is already booked: FTR vs. The Briscoes for the tag titles. Joe is facing Jay Lethal for the TV title. And two rising stars that I am a big fan of: Wheeler Yuta and Daniel Garcia are battling it out for the Pure Rules title in a Pure Rules match.

I imagine they will add more matches to the card. But I for one am already sold on this PPV with just these three matches.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I can't be sure but it seems to be like TK is very close to finalizing a TV deal for ROH.

Besides the fact that they have changed the logo, added ROH merch to their store, they are also doing another ROH PPV later this month.

And speaking of the PPV, Death Before Dishonor looks like another potentially great wrestling PPV. The rematch that everyone is dying to see is already booked: FTR vs. The Briscoes for the tag titles. Joe is facing Jay Lethal for the TV title. And two rising stars that I am a big fan of: Wheeler Yuta and Daniel Garcia are battling it out for the Pure Rules title in a Pure Rules match.

I imagine they will add more matches to the card. But I for one am already sold on this PPV with just these three matches.

Great news for pro wrestlers today, more opportunities is healthy for the industry and competition. Will it be on TNT or a different channel ?

AEW have a bloated roster which they can look to re-shuffle. I also think it’s vital ROH have a core group who are exclusive predominately to the promotion.

NXT paid homage to what made made ROH special which at it’s core was wrestling in its purest form but with their own high octane spin on the action and added world class production value. When they transitioned to TV, we largely got more of the same, except they introduced more depth in their roster by introducing heavyweight wrestlers. I felt while they were on they were successful, whether they were a ratings success am not sure because that’s subjective, I don’t know if NXT is doing any better now? the reason am bringing this up is because am wondering if ROH could remain true to their brand and keep the network happy at the same time, if we get too much of the Dynamite shenanigans then there is no appeal for me and it would just be a 3rd brand for Khan.

I can’t say I’ve been a ROH regular since the end of their golden era and the emergence of superior alternatives, NXT being one and access to the programming was a convenience to. But when you go on TV, there’s always excitement and am interested to see what they do

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Great news for pro wrestlers today, more opportunities is healthy for the industry and competition. Will it be on TNT or a different channel ?

AEW have a bloated roster which they can look to re-shuffle. I also think itÂ’s vital ROH have a core group who are exclusive predominately to the promotion.

NXT paid homage to what made made ROH special which at itÂ’s core was wrestling in its purest form but with their own high octane spin on the action and added world class production value. When they transitioned to TV, we largely got more of the same, except they introduced more depth in their roster by introducing heavyweight wrestlers. I felt while they were on they were successful, whether they were a ratings success am not sure because thatÂ’s subjective, I donÂ’t know if NXT is doing any better now? the reason am bringing this up is because am wondering if ROH could remain true to their brand and keep the network happy at the same time, if we get too much of the Dynamite shenanigans then there is no appeal for me and it would just be a 3rd brand for Khan.

I canÂ’t say IÂ’ve been a ROH regular since the end of their golden era and the emergence of superior alternatives, NXT being one and access to the programming was a convenience to. But when you go on TV, thereÂ’s always excitement and am interested to see what they do

Well again, nothing has been announced so this is more me just being presumptuous. But the reason this PPV is happening is because WarnerMedia apparently wants them to do more PPVs. And alot of people have speculated that this PPV is being done to get a pulse of the market for the ROH product. So if WarnerMedia are happy with what AEW is delivering than its highly likely that ROH could have a home on one of their channels.

Yeah couldn't agree more. The best thing about the ROH brand is that it already has so much built in history. All they really have to do is bring it back to its roots and make it a show that's more wrestling driven and something different from what we get on Dynamite. The blueprint should be NXT or something close to what NXT was till the rebrand.

There are already alot of guys on their roster that they could move to ROH. And then there's a few great ROH talents aswell that out of jobs, whom they can add to the ROH. Namely: The Briscoes (who have spent more years in ROH than any other talent), but also, Josh Woods, Matt Taven, Bandido.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Great news for pro wrestlers today, more opportunities is healthy for the industry and competition. Will it be on TNT or a different channel ?

AEW have a bloated roster which they can look to re-shuffle. I also think itÂ’s vital ROH have a core group who are exclusive predominately to the promotion.

NXT paid homage to what made made ROH special which at itÂ’s core was wrestling in its purest form but with their own high octane spin on the action and added world class production value. When they transitioned to TV, we largely got more of the same, except they introduced more depth in their roster by introducing heavyweight wrestlers. I felt while they were on they were successful, whether they were a ratings success am not sure because thatÂ’s subjective, I donÂ’t know if NXT is doing any better now? the reason am bringing this up is because am wondering if ROH could remain true to their brand and keep the network happy at the same time, if we get too much of the Dynamite shenanigans then there is no appeal for me and it would just be a 3rd brand for Khan.

I canÂ’t say IÂ’ve been a ROH regular since the end of their golden era and the emergence of superior alternatives, NXT being one and access to the programming was a convenience to. But when you go on TV, thereÂ’s always excitement and am interested to see what they do

I don't blame you. ROH hasn't been relevant since 2018 (let alone good). 2017-18 were probably the best years for them business-wise. They were getting big crowds at their shows, doing supershows with New Japan and selling out MSG. That's when Cody, The Bucks, Bullet Club were somewhat hot on the indie circuit. But once AEW was formed, ROH really fell to the wayside and the pandemic essentially put the finishing touches on them from a financial standpoint.

Quality-wise, I think nothing compares to that early golden era, but even after that golden era ended ROH was pretty good because you still had guys like Steen, El Generico, Aries, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong. Seth Rollins/Tyler Black. McGuinness and Bryan were there till 2009. And you had Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly moving up the ranks. 2010-2012 was a pretty fun period too. That's when Cornette was booking the show. That's also the period that gave us that highly memorable Steen/El Generico feud.

The problem with ROH has seldom been the quality of the wrestling, or even the show. But rather the fact that nobody has ever had a desire to seriously put money into the company. For the longest time they were using substandard cameras and lighting which for me, must have contributed heavily to their inability to ever land a TV deal. Even their Internet PPVs regularly crashed/had streaming issues so the hardcore fans weren't getting their moneys worth either. And as you well know, if you don't have TV, its becomes damn near impossible to take a wrestling promotion to the next level. Which explains why they have essentially always stayed in the same place.

 

[Aman]

Vince is finished. He can try to hold onto that position as long as he can but this is the thing that will bring him down - too deep for even him to survive even with his power in the company. His neflix doco has already been axed and in the coming days we'll probably hear more of the repercussions.

You can look on social media to see the WWE wrestler he paid off was.

My condolences to Shaz, other WWE stans and any fans of SPs. El Idolo is not getting out of this.

 

[shaz619]

I don't blame you. ROH hasn't been relevant since 2018 (let alone good). 2017-18 were probably the best years for them business-wise. They were getting big crowds at their shows, doing supershows with New Japan and selling out MSG. That's when Cody, The Bucks, Bullet Club were somewhat hot on the indie circuit. But once AEW was formed, ROH really fell to the wayside and the pandemic essentially put the finishing touches on them from a financial standpoint.

Quality-wise, I think nothing compares to that early golden era, but even after that golden era ended ROH was pretty good because you still had guys like Steen, El Generico, Aries, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong. Seth Rollins/Tyler Black. McGuinness and Bryan were there till 2009. And you had Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly moving up the ranks. 2010-2012 was a pretty fun period too. That's when Cornette was booking the show. That's also the period that gave us that highly memorable Steen/El Generico feud.

The problem with ROH has seldom been the quality of the wrestling, or even the show. But rather the fact that nobody has ever had a desire to seriously put money into the company. For the longest time they were using substandard cameras and lighting which for me, must have contributed heavily to their inability to ever land a TV deal. Even their Internet PPVs regularly crashed/had streaming issues so the hardcore fans weren't getting their moneys worth either. And as you well know, if you don't have TV, its becomes damn near impossible to take a wrestling promotion to the next level. Which explains why they have essentially always stayed in the same place.

To be fair to them as that alternative to mainstream wrestling ROH have been the most consistent, we saw TNA experience some highs and lows but ROH has largely stuck to their core code of honour ethos, I enjoyed the Sapolsky years that was their peak imo but even through some instability in their booking team after that they were able to stick to the theme for the most part. They did try their hand at TV and PPV, Jim was a good a guy to have for that because he looked to build up the wrestlers for that particular audience but in doing so moved a bit away from Gabe’s work rate style of booking, I might be wrong but they did their best PPV with Jim and around that time we began the emergence of Steen. Jim was doing the right thing looking back for the expansion of ROH but I preferred Gabe’s unconventional booking style which focussed a great deal on the action and dream matches, in between we did get some great story telling to but that was the focus. But you’re right, at the crux of it, not many were willing to plough into the company financially and I suppose the E benefited by picking up the talent

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Vince is finished. He can try to hold onto that position as long as he can but this is the thing that will bring him down - too deep for even him to survive even with his power in the company. His neflix doco has already been axed and in the coming days we'll probably hear more of the repercussions.

You can look on social media to see the WWE wrestler he paid off was.

My condolences to Shaz, other WWE stans and any fans of SPs. El Idolo is not getting out of this.

I don't follow wrestling twitter, can you enlighten me who the wrestler he paid off is? The articles online don't seem to be naming her.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

To be fair to them as that alternative to mainstream wrestling ROH have been the most consistent, we saw TNA experience some highs and lows but ROH has largely stuck to their core code of honour ethos, I enjoyed the Sapolsky years that was their peak imo but even through some instability in their booking team after that they were able to stick to the theme for the most part. They did try their hand at TV and PPV, Jim was a good a guy to have for that because he looked to build up the wrestlers for that particular audience but in doing so moved a bit away from Gabe’s work rate style of booking, I might be wrong but they did their best PPV with Jim and around that time we began the emergence of Steen. Jim was doing the right thing looking back for the expansion of ROH but I preferred Gabe’s unconventional booking style which focussed a great deal on the action and dream matches, in between we did get some great story telling to but that was the focus. But you’re right, at the crux of it, not many were willing to plough into the company financially and I suppose the E benefited by picking up the talent

Yeah no doubt. But again, the lack of a network television show severely held them back from being taken seriously. Even as an alternative to WWE there was a lot of room for them to grow in that niche that they rarely ever capitalized on, and something that AEW are doing really well to capitalize on now. There's no telling how much that workrate style would have resonated with a mainstream audience during the early 2000s if ROH was on network TV.

Yeah I too was definitely more of a fan of Gabe. Besides the stuff you mentioned, he is the one who basically established ROH's ethos and identity...the Code of Honor, the specific exclusion of interferences and B.S. He was also very good at pinpointing a particular wrestler's strengths and booking according to that. And thing is, that work rate style that he pioneered was revolutionary when you think about it. Because wrestling today is very much defined by that style. AEW, NXT, ROH; were all inspired by that style to a great extent. Wrestlers these days are more driven to have great matches that people talk about than they were 25, 30 years ago. And fans expect to see good/great matches on a consistent basis.

Cornette was a good booker and like I said, I enjoyed the period he was in-charge. But if I'm going to be critical I'd say on some level I felt that he was always out of touch with the modern audience, which is why the fans turned on him after a certain point. He was trying to do logical, old-school booking but it didn't always work. Doing $5000 or $10,000 challenges for instance was insulting to the audience's intelligence who knew exactly what a rinky dink operation ROH was. He also tried to do Bill Watts inspired stuff like banning piledrivers which didn't nearly attract the heat that it would have in the 80s.

The most frustrating thing though were his issues with Steen and El Generico. He hated the hardcore matches that those two were having, he hated El Generico's gimmick and he thought that Steen was too fat and didn't look anything like a wrestler with his t-shirt and shorts get-up. He even sent Steen home for something like a year to lose weight.

And while he may have ended up being right about El Generico's gimmick being stupid and indierific, fact is that both were supremely over in ROH at the time. The hardcore matches that they were having had a history that necessitated them, and they were attracting genuine interest in the ROH product that other guys were not exactly doing. And on Steen he was almost completely wrong because he is one of the biggest stars in WWE today and he has barely changed anything about himself from his days in the indies.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah no doubt. But again, the lack of a network television show severely held them back from being taken seriously. Even as an alternative to WWE there was a lot of room for them to grow in that niche that they rarely ever capitalized on, and something that AEW are doing really well to capitalize on now. There's no telling how much that workrate style would have resonated with a mainstream audience during the early 2000s if ROH was on network TV.

Yeah I too was definitely more of a fan of Gabe. Besides the stuff you mentioned, he is the one who basically established ROH's ethos and identity...the Code of Honor, the specific exclusion of interferences and B.S. He was also very good at pinpointing a particular wrestler's strengths and booking according to that. And thing is, that work rate style that he pioneered was revolutionary when you think about it. Because wrestling today is very much defined by that style. AEW, NXT, ROH; were all inspired by that style to a great extent. Wrestlers these days are more driven to have great matches that people talk about than they were 25, 30 years ago. And fans expect to see good/great matches on a consistent basis.

Cornette was a good booker and like I said, I enjoyed the period he was in-charge. But if I'm going to be critical I'd say on some level I felt that he was always out of touch with the modern audience, which is why the fans turned on him after a certain point. He was trying to do logical, old-school booking but it didn't always work. Doing $5000 or $10,000 challenges for instance was insulting to the audience's intelligence who knew exactly what a rinky dink operation ROH was. He also tried to do Bill Watts inspired stuff like banning piledrivers which didn't nearly attract the heat that it would have in the 80s.

The most frustrating thing though were his issues with Steen and El Generico. He hated the hardcore matches that those two were having, he hated El Generico's gimmick and he thought that Steen was too fat and didn't look anything like a wrestler with his t-shirt and shorts get-up. He even sent Steen home for something like a year to lose weight.

And while he may have ended up being right about El Generico's gimmick being stupid and indierific, fact is that both were supremely over in ROH at the time. The hardcore matches that they were having had a history that necessitated them, and they were attracting genuine interest in the ROH product that other guys were not exactly doing. And on Steen he was almost completely wrong because he is one of the biggest stars in WWE today and he has barely changed anything about himself from his days in the indies.

Sami was over in ROH but in NXT honestly, without a mask he was Bryan levels of over as a face, and I’d say the best baby face in wrestling during his stint there, his arc was some of the best creative I had seen for a face in years, I don’t count the Bryan stuff because the fans wrote his story really, Sami was astronomically over and him going over for the NXT title imo was peak NXT and the best moment in their history. With Steen, Jim complained about his weight and if you look at what shape he was in ROH and what shape he was in the WWE there’s a massive difference, KO in NXT was doing the best work of his career, motivated and hungry. I would agree that to some degree Jim can be out of touch with the present when it comes to the need for more realism, professionalism and legitimacy between the ropes, he has an unreal and vast pool of knowledge which could be an asset anywhere if he was willing to reach a middle ground more often then not but that’s a bit harsh for me to say when he has been successful pretty much everywhere apart from TNA (would pay to see him in a fight with Russo) lol and his run in OVW inspired a generation of main eventers. Communication and dealing with difficult personalities have not been his best strength at times or being aware of certain boundaries but I think fans overlook the possibility of KO and El Generico letting the hype get to their heads and be willing to listen, in the WWE they knew they can’t faff around as much

 

[shaz619]

Vince is going to make the most out of his company while he can. It wouldn’t shock me if they fast track Austin Theory sooner rather then later

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sami was over in ROH but in NXT honestly, without a mask he was Bryan levels of over as a face, and I’d say the best baby face in wrestling during his stint there, his arc was some of the best creative I had seen for a face in years, I don’t count the Bryan stuff because the fans wrote his story really, Sami was astronomically over and him going over for the NXT title imo was peak NXT and the best moment in their history. With Steen, Jim complained about his weight and if you look at what shape he was in ROH and what shape he was in the WWE there’s a massive difference, KO in NXT was doing the best work of his career, motivated and hungry. I would agree that to some degree Jim can be out of touch with the present when it comes to the need for more realism, professionalism and legitimacy between the ropes, he has an unreal and vast pool of knowledge which could be an asset anywhere if he was willing to reach a middle ground more often then not but that’s a bit harsh for me to say when he has been successful pretty much everywhere apart from TNA (would pay to see him in a fight with Russo) lol and his run in OVW inspired a generation of main eventers. Communication and dealing with difficult personalities have not been his best strength at times or being aware of certain boundaries but I think fans overlook the possibility of KO and El Generico letting the hype get to their heads and be willing to listen, in the WWE they knew they can’t faff around as much

Yeah I think that's a fair assessment. Cornette is great at thinking logically about wrestling and even coming up with stuff that makes sense, which makes him a great guy to have by your side if you are running a wrestling promotion. But he is not exactly the best guy to have as your head-booker because of his inability to work with everyone and compromise on his vision of pro-wrestling, which is oftentimes at odds with the modern vision. As for his ROH run, I think besides this there were other missteps that he made aswell. But his run wasn't nearly like what many diehard ROH fans make it out to be. And it goes without saying that you could have had the best booker in the world and it would not have made a big difference to the bottom-line, which was that at the end of the ROH was still minor-league because Sinclair Broadcasting just wasn't interested in putting any kind of serious money into the promotion.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] A couple of months ago we talked about how Balor could be utilized better as a heel, as opposed to being the weekly fodder that he was back then.

And though this might have been another case of plans changing at the last moment, I actually think this Balor heel run is kinda underrated. Yeah, his accent can tend to be distracting sometimes, but he works like a heel, he's a fairly good promo and he has some amazing comedic timing. Like, I cackle everytime he says: tranquilo to Rey or Dominik lol.

My only fear is that Edge is going to come back at SummerSlam and just destroy both him and Priest. Which is kinda counter-productive since this group has barely gotten any heat since putting Edge out of commission.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't know if you guys followed A&E WWE Biography series last year, but its back this year with Season 2.

Personally, I quite enjoyed the in-depth look at the lives and careers of guys like Bret, Austin, Shawn, Piper, Foley.

And this season they are chronicling the careers of: The Undertaker, Goldberg, Lex Luger, Edge, Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, D-Generation X, as well as looking at the first-ever WrestleMania. The Undertaker episode is already out, which I plan to see tonight.

On top of that A&E are also doing a series about some of the greatest WWE feuds called WWE Rivals that is running side-by-side with the Biography series.

Hopefully this will fill the void till Dark Side of the Ring returns.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] A couple of months ago we talked about how Balor could be utilized better as a heel, as opposed to being the weekly fodder that he was back then.

And though this might have been another case of plans changing at the last moment, I actually think this Balor heel run is kinda underrated. Yeah, his accent can tend to be distracting sometimes, but he works like a heel, he's a fairly good promo and he has some amazing comedic timing. Like, I cackle everytime he says: tranquilo to Rey or Dominik lol.

My only fear is that Edge is going to come back at SummerSlam and just destroy both him and Priest. Which is kinda counter-productive since this group has barely gotten any heat since putting Edge out of commission.

I think Edge vs Balor has the potential of being the best match on Summerslam. Their feud could be so much more if Edge gets out of his way to make a great and well balanced feud. His recent big feuds that were really brilliant were with Randy,Seth and Roman (all 3 guys with good influence backstage). I feel like Balor is well below that standing and doesn't get as much power as opposed to the other guys like Seth, Roman, Randy, Edge, Drew, AJ or even Miz. I feel like his lack of say in his feuds/promos holds him down a lot on the main roster. In Nxt, he looked a lot more confident and real in his work probably because he had some good say in his work back there.

We saw a glimpse of some good chemistry in the ring between Edge and Balor(as opposed to AJ) during their tag match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Sami was over in ROH but in NXT honestly, without a mask he was Bryan levels of over as a face, and I’d say the best baby face in wrestling during his stint there, his arc was some of the best creative I had seen for a face in years, I don’t count the Bryan stuff because the fans wrote his story really, Sami was astronomically over and him going over for the NXT title imo was peak NXT and the best moment in their history. With Steen, Jim complained about his weight and if you look at what shape he was in ROH and what shape he was in the WWE there’s a massive difference, KO in NXT was doing the best work of his career, motivated and hungry. I would agree that to some degree Jim can be out of touch with the present when it comes to the need for more realism, professionalism and legitimacy between the ropes, he has an unreal and vast pool of knowledge which could be an asset anywhere if he was willing to reach a middle ground more often then not but that’s a bit harsh for me to say when he has been successful pretty much everywhere apart from TNA (would pay to see him in a fight with Russo) lol and his run in OVW inspired a generation of main eventers. Communication and dealing with difficult personalities have not been his best strength at times or being aware of certain boundaries but I think fans overlook the possibility of KO and El Generico letting the hype get to their heads and be willing to listen, in the WWE they knew they can’t faff around as much

Sami and KO are shoe ins for every possible wrestling company in the world. The two guys are so adaptable to any style or environment that it's crazy. This heel run of Sami has been quite underrated IMO but he's been a heel now for around 4 years now and maybe could turn face again. He can reinvent himself so effortlessly. I tend to forget he is the same underdog hungry face from NXT while watching his heel work.

I think Tony needs to give Regal some big position of power for ROH if he intends to make ROH prestigious again. Plus ROH should be kept away from Dynamite and Rampage in terms of storylines and even heel face alignment which would give the fans a new option to watch (like NXT did by remaining seperate from the main roster)

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Edge vs Balor has the potential of being the best match on Summerslam. Their feud could be so much more if Edge gets out of his way to make a great and well balanced feud. His recent big feuds that were really brilliant were with Randy,Seth and Roman (all 3 guys with good influence backstage). I feel like Balor is well below that standing and doesn't get as much power as opposed to the other guys like Seth, Roman, Randy, Edge, Drew, AJ or even Miz. I feel like his lack of say in his feuds/promos holds him down a lot on the main roster. In Nxt, he looked a lot more confident and real in his work probably because he had some good say in his work back there.

We saw a glimpse of some good chemistry in the ring between Edge and Balor(as opposed to AJ) during their tag match.

On paper the match could be great. But only if Balor is booked strongly and like a genuine threat to Edge, rather than according to what his position on the card was prior to this heel turn. Which is why I feel its very necessary for Balor and his group to get some heat. So far all they've done is take out Edge and threaten the Mysterios. That's not enough. They need to be attacking/taking out more top-level guys.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

On paper the match could be great. But only if Balor is booked strongly and like a genuine threat to Edge, rather than according to what his position on the card was prior to this heel turn. Which is why I feel its very necessary for Balor and his group to get some heat. So far all they've done is take out Edge and threaten the Mysterios. That's not enough. They need to be attacking/taking out more top-level guys.

That's where backstage standing and power comes in. Edge was listened to and was treated like a big deal. Don't think either Balor or Priest are listened to backstage or even have any power regarding which direction their program goes in.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That's where backstage standing and power comes in. Edge was listened to and was treated like a big deal. Don't think either Balor or Priest are listened to backstage or even have any power regarding which direction their program goes in.

It's not just about backstage standing though. I think even more than that its about how Vince views you. And unfortunately Vince has never perceived Balor as anything more than a midcard guy.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sami and KO are shoe ins for every possible wrestling company in the world. The two guys are so adaptable to any style or environment that it's crazy. This heel run of Sami has been quite underrated IMO but he's been a heel now for around 4 years now and maybe could turn face again. He can reinvent himself so effortlessly. I tend to forget he is the same underdog hungry face from NXT while watching his heel work.

I think Tony needs to give Regal some big position of power for ROH if he intends to make ROH prestigious again. Plus ROH should be kept away from Dynamite and Rampage in terms of storylines and even heel face alignment which would give the fans a new option to watch (like NXT did by remaining seperate from the main roster)

Very much agree with this. The show has been schizophrenic lately with some great stuff and some stuff that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Namely; the ROH stuff as they build to the Death Before Dishonor PPV. Tony may think he can do everything but it is not humanly possible for him to do Dynamite, Rampage and ROH, along with whatever he is doing with Fulham and the Jacksonville Jaguars.

It doesn't have to be Regal, because honestly I love Regal in the role he has been in so far. But he does need a booker to book ROH and keep it completely separate from AEW.

I also think doing ROH stuff on AEW TV is not tenable in the long-run. Either Tony should deliver with the TV deal soon, or move all the ROH stuff to YouTube till they get a TV deal. Whether he puts it on Dark or on ROH's own YouTube channel is up to him. But at the end of the day, you can't force people who tune in to watch AEW to watch ROH. For the casual viewer (whom they have failed to capture thus far) this stuff is likely to take them farther away from the product than bring them closer to it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Very much agree with this. The show has been schizophrenic lately with some great stuff and some stuff that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Namely; the ROH stuff as they build to the Death Before Dishonor PPV. Tony may think he can do everything but it is not humanly possible for him to do Dynamite, Rampage and ROH, along with whatever he is doing with Fulham and the Jacksonville Jaguars.

It doesn't have to be Regal, because honestly I love Regal in the role he has been in so far. But he does need a booker to book ROH and keep it completely separate from AEW.

I also think doing ROH stuff on AEW TV is not tenable in the long-run. Either Tony should deliver with the TV deal soon, or move all the ROH stuff to YouTube till they get a TV deal. Whether he puts it on Dark or on ROH's own YouTube channel is up to him. But at the end of the day, you can't force people who tune in to watch AEW to watch ROH. For the casual viewer (whom they have failed to capture thus far) this stuff is likely to take them farther away from the product than bring them closer to it.

The thing is when one person does all 3 shows, then the pattern and booking becomes sort of recognizable and instead of adding variety, it becomes a little repetitive.
With someone else in charge of booking ROH, it will give a fresh product and something with a different makeup.
Like NXT is now pretty much a garage version of main roster. (Have stopped watching it for months now).

Regal is the only one with a good experience of booking/running a show.

On the other hand, I have heard Joe is injured again. I have no idea why he has become so injury prone in last few years. Think it would be better for Joe now to gradually transition to a back stage role and become a part time wrestler.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's not just about backstage standing though. I think even more than that its about how Vince views you. And unfortunately Vince has never perceived Balor as anything more than a midcard guy.

Same was the case with Bryan, AJ, Eddie and even Benoit. But they got over by taking chances.
Balor needs to do the same. The worst that can happen to him is getting fired but he'll know he'd be one of the guys AEW wouldn't hesitate to offer a contract to.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The thing is when one person does all 3 shows, then the pattern and booking becomes sort of recognizable and instead of adding variety, it becomes a little repetitive.
With someone else in charge of booking ROH, it will give a fresh product and something with a different makeup.
Like NXT is now pretty much a garage version of main roster. (Have stopped watching it for months now).

Regal is the only one with a good experience of booking/running a show.

On the other hand, I have heard Joe is injured again. I have no idea why he has become so injury prone in last few years. Think it would be better for Joe now to gradually transition to a back stage role and become a part time wrestler.

As far as I know, HHH was the head booker of NXT. Regal had more of a backstage role where he provided his input on the show, helped talent and was the on-screen authority figure.

From what I've heard Joe's injury is in kayfabe. If he was really injured I don't think he would have been advertised for the PPV.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

As far as I know, HHH was the head booker of NXT. Regal had more of a backstage role where he provided his input on the show, helped talent and was the on-screen authority figure.

From what I've heard Joe's injury is in kayfabe. If he was really injured I don't think he would have been advertised for the PPV.

Yes but Regal was like third guy after Trips and HBK in regards to where NXT would go. I am sure a lot of storylines and matches were put together by Regal over the years with Trips giving him okay.
Before Trips, I think Dusty was the main booker of NXT.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Same was the case with Bryan, AJ, Eddie and even Benoit. But they got over by taking chances.
Balor needs to do the same. The worst that can happen to him is getting fired but he'll know he'd be one of the guys AEW wouldn't hesitate to offer a contract to.

Well all due respect to Balor, but I don't feel he can be compared to either of those guys; all of whom were ATG wrestlers in my view.

I also feel that they were all different cases. AJ got over and built a reputation as one of the very best wrestlers in the world before he came to WWE. Same with Bryan. Eddie and Chris came up in a different era where they had the benefit of working not just in a top-level promotion like WCW for years and years, but also in Mexico and Japan. And the Mexico and Japan of those days was quite different from the Mexico and Japan of these days, or the late 2000s/early 2010s which is when Balor came up.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes but Regal was like third guy after Trips and HBK in regards to where NXT would go. I am sure a lot of storylines and matches were put together by Regal over the years with Trips giving him okay.
Before Trips, I think Dusty was the main booker of NXT.

Yeah he was. Shawn, I think had more of an agent role i.e. he was responsible for putting matches together. But the booker was always HHH. Dusty was probably the second in command when he was there. Regal may have been the third guy or the second guy later on. But ultimately I think it was HHH who was responsible for booking the show and making all the final decisions.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well all due respect to Balor, but I don't feel he can be compared to either of those guys; all of whom were ATG wrestlers in my view.

I also feel that they were all different cases. AJ got over and built a reputation as one of the very best wrestlers in the world before he came to WWE. Same with Bryan. Eddie and Chris came up in a different era where they had the benefit of working not just in a top-level promotion like WCW for years and years, but also in Mexico and Japan. And the Mexico and Japan of those days was quite different from the Mexico and Japan of these days, or the late 2000s/early 2010s which is when Balor came up.

Didn't say he was as good as them. I was pointing to the fact that all 4 of them were non Vince guys. AJ was pretty much a Trips signing. The crowd pop at RR was the first thing that made Vince take notice.
Benoit and Eddie toiled in the mid card for 4-5 years before they were given a chance to move to the top card. I doubt Vince cared about Bryan's and AJ's reputations. For him, unless Prichard convinces him someone is really good, he just views them as starters.
What I was trying to say is Balor needs to take chances if he wants to rise amongst the ranks. He might not really be in Stardust level hole right now but he's remained static throughout his run which isn't a good sign.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] A couple of months ago we talked about how Balor could be utilized better as a heel, as opposed to being the weekly fodder that he was back then.

And though this might have been another case of plans changing at the last moment, I actually think this Balor heel run is kinda underrated. Yeah, his accent can tend to be distracting sometimes, but he works like a heel, he's a fairly good promo and he has some amazing comedic timing. Like, I cackle everytime he says: tranquilo to Rey or Dominik lol.

My only fear is that Edge is going to come back at SummerSlam and just destroy both him and Priest. Which is kinda counter-productive since this group has barely gotten any heat since putting Edge out of commission.

I haven’t watched the angle much in a while or followed the E as of late, the last thing I saw oddly enough was a late night segment involving Christian on Dynamite, I just switched the TV on and he was cutting a promo on FTA channel ITV lol I think just before that Wardlow won the TNT title, there’s stuff he does which I dig and others not so much, I would prefer it if he and the booker understand he’s a big dude and work with that understanding, plus going for high spots which he doesn’t need to, and that too on a weekly episode is a waste. If he did on a flagship event it’s different. I like the new Luchasaurus, they should change his name though.

Generally the heels always job to the faces there but maybe they can drag it out for a while before giving Edge the win I don’t know, unfortunately these dark factions getting the 50/50 booking treatment. I wonder if Balor has taken to his role though

 

[shaz619]

Yes but Regal was like third guy after Trips and HBK in regards to where NXT would go. I am sure a lot of storylines and matches were put together by Regal over the years with Trips giving him okay.
Before Trips, I think Dusty was the main booker of NXT.

Yeah he was. Shawn, I think had more of an agent role i.e. he was responsible for putting matches together. But the booker was always HHH. Dusty was probably the second in command when he was there. Regal may have been the third guy or the second guy later on. But ultimately I think it was HHH who was responsible for booking the show and making all the final decisions.

Tbh Hunter gets too much credit, he has a team behind him and while he should get the nod for approving the creative direction, Ryan Ward was writing majority of the angles during NXT’s peak when he was there including the acclaimed R:Evolution Takeover which was the culmination of the story he envisioned. Dusty was a great support for Hunter but his biggest influence came through his 1:1 individual work with talent, he was a brilliant mentor and manager, excellent at using his experiences and communicating them without getting the knives out like a certain someone

 

[shaz619]

I don't know if you guys followed A&E WWE Biography series last year, but its back this year with Season 2.

Personally, I quite enjoyed the in-depth look at the lives and careers of guys like Bret, Austin, Shawn, Piper, Foley.

And this season they are chronicling the careers of: The Undertaker, Goldberg, Lex Luger, Edge, Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, D-Generation X, as well as looking at the first-ever WrestleMania. The Undertaker episode is already out, which I plan to see tonight.

On top of that A&E are also doing a series about some of the greatest WWE feuds called WWE Rivals that is running side-by-side with the Biography series.

Hopefully this will fill the void till Dark Side of the Ring returns.

Ah I really need to check that out, its been on my list for a long time. The Rivals stuff will be very interesting, remember the Bret/Shawn Rivarly DVD? that was one of the best documentaries they’ve ever done with Jim Ross hosting it, looks like we are going to revisit that, I wonder how close Bret and Shawn are right now. Bret interestingly enough is rarely spiteful towards Shawn, HHH on the other hand ) ah love it.

Isn’t Dark Side done ? wasn’t the E trying to buy them out or is that up in the air after the Vince stuff

 

[shaz619]

Apparently guys, Darth Burius is back in NXT but his role is unknown

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Ah I really need to check that out, its been on my list for a long time. The Rivals stuff will be very interesting, remember the Bret/Shawn Rivarly DVD? that was one of the best documentaries they’ve ever done with Jim Ross hosting it, looks like we are going to revisit that, I wonder how close Bret and Shawn are right now. Bret interestingly enough is rarely spiteful towards Shawn, HHH on the other hand ) ah love it.

Isn’t Dark Side done ? wasn’t the E trying to buy them out or is that up in the air after the Vince stuff

So I saw the first episode of the WWE Rivals show. Funnily enough, it was about Bret and Shawn. The episode was pretty good. Shawn and Bret had alot to say, and both were very humble. The talking heads weren't complete idiots who have barely anything to do with wrestling, as has been the case with certain other WWE doc. shows in recent past. HHH did not miss any opportunity to talk s**t about Bret yet again lol. 99% of his bits were taking shots at Bret or talking about how much better Shawn was than him.

There wasn't anything new here for me, because I have already seen the story of his feud told a million times. If anything, I groan everytime anyone starts talking about the Montreal Screwjob. But still it was enjoyable revisiting the feud. What I loved most was probably how not bitter Bret was here. That really made me happy, that he has finally moved on. The ending of the episode was really heartwarming too with Bret and Shawn meeting up at a hotel during WrestleMania. And Bret even noted that eventhough they weren't close friends or anything like that, they still kept in touch and dropped messages during the holidays or on each other's birthdays, which I thought was really sweet.

From what I've heard DSOTR is very much alive with a new season coming soon.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Apparently guys, Darth Burius is back in NXT but his role is unknown

lol I wonder why. He can't be too happy with what they've done with his show. And its not like the show can be saved anyway.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Tbh Hunter gets too much credit, he has a team behind him and while he should get the nod for approving the creative direction, Ryan Ward was writing majority of the angles during NXT’s peak when he was there including the acclaimed R:Evolution Takeover which was the culmination of the story he envisioned. Dusty was a great support for Hunter but his biggest influence came through his 1:1 individual work with talent, he was a brilliant mentor and manager, excellent at using his experiences and communicating them without getting the knives out like a certain someone

I know you're not a big fan of HHH which is why I find it funny that you have him so much credit here while saying he gets too much credit hahah

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I haven’t watched the angle much in a while or followed the E as of late, the last thing I saw oddly enough was a late night segment involving Christian on Dynamite, I just switched the TV on and he was cutting a promo on FTA channel ITV lol I think just before that Wardlow won the TNT title, there’s stuff he does which I dig and others not so much, I would prefer it if he and the booker understand he’s a big dude and work with that understanding, plus going for high spots which he doesn’t need to, and that too on a weekly episode is a waste. If he did on a flagship event it’s different. I like the new Luchasaurus, they should change his name though.

Generally the heels always job to the faces there but maybe they can drag it out for a while before giving Edge the win I don’t know, unfortunately these dark factions getting the 50/50 booking treatment. I wonder if Balor has taken to his role though

Wardlow does do some non-big guy stuff but honestly it doesn't bother me as much as much as it does with Brian Cage and Lance Archer. Maybe because with Wardlow there's only one or two moves like the senton, which don't feel that out of place and if anything, put over his unique athleticism. With Brian Cage, literally every move he does is a luchador move. It's like watching a video-game character in action because nothing that he does makes any sense for a jacked up, roided-up 270 pounder to do. With Archer its the backflips and his annoying twist on Taker's ropewalk that annoys the heck out of me. Because he is literally the second tallest guy in the company and it just does not suit him at all.

Luchasaurus is another guy who falls in that same Brian Cage category for me. My only hope is that now that he has gone heel, he will atleast work like a big man. Because besides those moves looking illogical and stupid, they are also babyface moves that the crowd responds to organically.

Its amazing how Christian has basically taken MJF's spot on the show. I find his promos to be quite entertaining and they seem to get a pretty strong reaction from the crowd as well. But I do hope that they have something more in mind. Because he can't keep coming out and saying something edgy or shocking every week. Or it will become his gimmick. He and Luchasaurus need to get some wins under their belt too. But that said, I do have faith in Christian's abilities. He's an absolute pro and a bonafide legend who understands good pro-wrestling. As long as he is working in an enabling environment, I'm confident that this angle will continue to work. But I would want that whenever that Christian v Jungle Boy match eventually happens, Christian has monster heat on him. And for that he needs big wins.

If I'm being honest, I don't see this faction having a particularly long shelf-life. There is a higher likability that it will turn into a jobber faction a few months from now, rather than a top one.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Didn't say he was as good as them. I was pointing to the fact that all 4 of them were non Vince guys. AJ was pretty much a Trips signing. The crowd pop at RR was the first thing that made Vince take notice.
Benoit and Eddie toiled in the mid card for 4-5 years before they were given a chance to move to the top card. I doubt Vince cared about Bryan's and AJ's reputations. For him, unless Prichard convinces him someone is really good, he just views them as starters.
What I was trying to say is Balor needs to take chances if he wants to rise amongst the ranks. He might not really be in Stardust level hole right now but he's remained static throughout his run which isn't a good sign.

Yeah but that's kinda the point though. Those guys were such good wrestlers that they got over despite their lack of size.

I don't think its as simple as that. Barring Benoit all three of the other guys got big crowd reactions and got over organically, which put them in the main-event. And though Benoit was probably never as over the top guys from his era, (or even to the extent of Bryan), he was still recognized as the greatest wrestler on the planet by his peers. And even with Benoit, once the crowd realized that he was getting the big push in 2004, they responded very strongly to him.

Balor, for all his strengths has never been as over as any of these other four guys for me. And I certainly don't see him getting any more over in WWE than he was when the won the World title in 2016.

Yeah but what can he do? I don't think doing more high-risk/strong style stuff in the ring is necessarily the answer considering he has gotten concussions in the past. His promo ability will unfortunately always be limited because of his accent. It sounds harsh but I think that a guy like Balor has a certain ceiling in WWE. And its going to be very hard for him to break through it as long as he is there.

 

[shaz619]

lol I wonder why. He can't be too happy with what they've done with his show. And its not like the show can be saved anyway.

Maybe for one last run, he has won everything but not the NXT title Is the show any good, the presentation is fantastic though and the talent pool seems promising, I know they don’t work like in the black and gold era but it has its own identity + Mandy Rose <3

 

[shaz619]

I know you're not a big fan of HHH which is why I find it funny that you have him so much credit here while saying he gets too much credit hahah

Can’t help but be forced to give him some praise on that one begrudgingly Ryan maybe his work is forgotten now

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] UK NXT still has grit, I need to follow it more often. There’s a big angle between former members of muchi mountain. I met these guys once and tried to do the Kliq version of too sweet when I should have done the muchi version

 

[shaz619]

Yeah but that's kinda the point though. Those guys were such good wrestlers that they got over despite their lack of size.

I don't think its as simple as that. Barring Benoit all three of the other guys got big crowd reactions and got over organically, which put them in the main-event. And though Benoit was probably never as over the top guys from his era, (or even to the extent of Bryan), he was still recognized as the greatest wrestler on the planet by his peers. And even with Benoit, once the crowd realized that he was getting the big push in 2004, they responded very strongly to him.

Balor, for all his strengths has never been as over as any of these other four guys for me. And I certainly don't see him getting any more over in WWE than he was when the won the World title in 2016.

Yeah but what can he do? I don't think doing more high-risk/strong style stuff in the ring is necessarily the answer considering he has gotten concussions in the past. His promo ability will unfortunately always be limited because of his accent. It sounds harsh but I think that a guy like Balor has a certain ceiling in WWE. And its going to be very hard for him to break through it as long as he is there.

Benoit always retained support amongst hardcore fans and there was an attachment to him, backstage he was immensely respected for his work ethic, skills and discipline. Given how much depth there was back then perhaps we lost sight of the possibility of Benoit getting that main event push but when they started to tease us the raw emotion and sentimental feelings towards him reached a climax really. Think of Bryan going over at WM 30 and when it first happened I was like this is the first time I’ve been this invested in a face since Benoit’s push, there was great similarity between how the title win panned out for both also given the type of performers they are. Did you experience Benoit’s rise back then and fan sentiment ? the 04 Rumble win was special to, rarely do we see guys win and have the same attachment to them now in the breaking the barrier between kayfabe and a shoot way, Benoit’s fairytale journey to WM20 was a shoot man and it still hurts what happened after

 

[shaz619]

Wardlow does do some non-big guy stuff but honestly it doesn't bother me as much as much as it does with Brian Cage and Lance Archer. Maybe because with Wardlow there's only one or two moves like the senton, which don't feel that out of place and if anything, put over his unique athleticism. With Brian Cage, literally every move he does is a luchador move. It's like watching a video-game character in action because nothing that he does makes any sense for a jacked up, roided-up 270 pounder to do. With Archer its the backflips and his annoying twist on Taker's ropewalk that annoys the heck out of me. Because he is literally the second tallest guy in the company and it just does not suit him at all.

Luchasaurus is another guy who falls in that same Brian Cage category for me. My only hope is that now that he has gone heel, he will atleast work like a big man. Because besides those moves looking illogical and stupid, they are also babyface moves that the crowd responds to organically.

Its amazing how Christian has basically taken MJF's spot on the show. I find his promos to be quite entertaining and they seem to get a pretty strong reaction from the crowd as well. But I do hope that they have something more in mind. Because he can't keep coming out and saying something edgy or shocking every week. Or it will become his gimmick. He and Luchasaurus need to get some wins under their belt too. But that said, I do have faith in Christian's abilities. He's an absolute pro and a bonafide legend who understands good pro-wrestling. As long as he is working in an enabling environment, I'm confident that this angle will continue to work. But I would want that whenever that Christian v Jungle Boy match eventually happens, Christian has monster heat on him. And for that he needs big wins.

If I'm being honest, I don't see this faction having a particularly long shelf-life. There is a higher likability that it will turn into a jobber faction a few months from now, rather than a top one.

It would mean more if he saved the high spot for the big occasions and did it only when other options were exhausted, it would elevate the match to. He’s a big Jeff mark, only reason he does it, there is no logic on his part behind why, thus the ring IQ is low and mentorship is required. Besides that, I’ve seen him use the running hurricarana, might be wrong but may have seen him use that on TV. As for Luchasaurus can’t say I’ve seen enough of his work really but of the matches he has worked recently, he has looked good and Christian is doing well as the old fashioned manipulating heel manager, I agree he doesn’t need to go down below every week

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Maybe for one last run, he has won everything but not the NXT title Is the show any good, the presentation is fantastic though and the talent pool seems promising, I know they don’t work like in the black and gold era but it has its own identity + Mandy Rose <3

Naah its beyond awful. Arguably the worst major wrestling show on TV. Bron Brreaker and Mandy Rose are the only two individuals that look or feel like potential future stars. The rest of the show is just loaded with green talent that can't work or cut a promo. Almost everyone has some kind of stupid gimmick, which makes it even harder to take them seriously.

Stopped watching long ago.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It would mean more if he saved the high spot for the big occasions and did it only when other options were exhausted, it would elevate the match to. He’s a big Jeff mark, only reason he does it, there is no logic on his part behind why, thus the ring IQ is low and mentorship is required. Besides that, I’ve seen him use the running hurricarana, might be wrong but may have seen him use that on TV. As for Luchasaurus can’t say I’ve seen enough of his work really but of the matches he has worked recently, he has looked good and Christian is doing well as the old fashioned manipulating heel manager, I agree he doesn’t need to go down below every week

Yeah I've seen him do that running hurricanrana on a few occasions. And not a fan tbh. But yeah he would be better served if he used the senton more sparingly. Thing is, his matches usually tend to be so short that you don't get the time to think too deeply about specific things. So in that regard I think they've largely done a good job with his booking. Because the crowd does not want to see him sell.

Yeah I guess you could make that argument. But besides a couple of moves that maybe don't make alot of sense I am really impressed by Wardlow as a talent, and as someone who takes the business seriously. At this point its obviously the little things. But I really like how he milks the crowd before delivering those power bombs. His facials during matches also tend to be very much on point and that's a big thing that you have to get right if you want to be a top babyface. He is also someone who tries his best to maintain kayfabe during interviews even when interviewers are using insider terms and openly talking about storylines before him. As far as mentorship is concerned, I think any young or inexperienced talent would benefit from that on some level. But Wardlow for me is still quite advanced for someone with such minimal time in the business.

I haven't seen the latest Dynamite but I loved the Luchasaurus squash a couple of weeks ago against that masked jobber. Which lasted all of thirty seconds and featured zero flips. Christian was great on the outside directing traffic. This Kane cosplay is the best use of Luchasaurus and honestly if it were up to me, I'd never turn him back face.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Benoit always retained support amongst hardcore fans and there was an attachment to him, backstage he was immensely respected for his work ethic, skills and discipline. Given how much depth there was back then perhaps we lost sight of the possibility of Benoit getting that main event push but when they started to tease us the raw emotion and sentimental feelings towards him reached a climax really. Think of Bryan going over at WM 30 and when it first happened I was like this is the first time I’ve been this invested in a face since Benoit’s push, there was great similarity between how the title win panned out for both also given the type of performers they are. Did you experience Benoit’s rise back then and fan sentiment ? the 04 Rumble win was special to, rarely do we see guys win and have the same attachment to them now in the breaking the barrier between kayfabe and a shoot way, Benoit’s fairytale journey to WM20 was a shoot man and it still hurts what happened after

The difference between the Benoit push and the Bryan one was that the Bryan push happened completely by fluke. Whereas, the Benoit push was planned right down to that awesome moment at the end of WM 20 with both Eddie and Chris holding the two World titles at MSG. But yeah, I definitely agree that it was a shoot, in that it was validation for years and years of being an incredible wrestler. The fact that HHH put him over clean multiple times still surprises me to a certain extent, considering HHH's history of getting his wins back even when he put someone over. But again, that just speaks to how good Benoit was. That even The Game recognized game.

At the end, it totally depends on you, as to which one you like better. Both had many similarities and both were great underdog stories culminating at two ATG WrestleMania shows. Both matches were absolutely amazing too. And while I can understand that one of those matches will never be talked about, or given the credit that it would have been under different circumstances, I personally liked the Benoit story more, just because that for me was the epitome of that mark chant: "you deserve it"...even more so than Bryan.

The fan sentiment was indeed astonishing. From the moment he eliminated Big Show, I think the fans were fully on-board. And I think WWE probably had some idea that at MSG the hardcore fanbase would be present and respond strongly to it. I guess they just couldn't apply the same thinking to the Brock v Goldberg match though lol.

It was disappointing how they booked Benoit's title reign. After the Backlash rematch, it wasn't long before Benoit became a afterthought (compared to HHH) eventhough he was World Champion. And it was way too early to put the belt on Orton. But I guess Vince was really adamant on erasing Brock from his company's history at that point.

 

[shaz619]

The difference between the Benoit push and the Bryan one was that the Bryan push happened completely by fluke. Whereas, the Benoit push was planned right down to that awesome moment at the end of WM 20 with both Eddie and Chris holding the two World titles at MSG. But yeah, I definitely agree that it was a shoot, in that it was validation for years and years of being an incredible wrestler. The fact that HHH put him over clean multiple times still surprises me to a certain extent, considering HHH's history of getting his wins back even when he put someone over. But again, that just speaks to how good Benoit was. That even The Game recognized game.

At the end, it totally depends on you, as to which one you like better. Both had many similarities and both were great underdog stories culminating at two ATG WrestleMania shows. Both matches were absolutely amazing too. And while I can understand that one of those matches will never be talked about, or given the credit that it would have been under different circumstances, I personally liked the Benoit story more, just because that for me was the epitome of that mark chant: "you deserve it"...even more so than Bryan.

The fan sentiment was indeed astonishing. From the moment he eliminated Big Show, I think the fans were fully on-board. And I think WWE probably had some idea that at MSG the hardcore fanbase would be present and respond strongly to it. I guess they just couldn't apply the same thinking to the Brock v Goldberg match though lol.

It was disappointing how they booked Benoit's title reign. After the Backlash rematch, it wasn't long before Benoit became a afterthought (compared to HHH) eventhough he was World Champion. And it was way too early to put the belt on Orton. But I guess Vince was really adamant on erasing Brock from his company's history at that point.

Hunter had immense respect for Benoit and what a throwback he was to the school of thought they scribed to as aspiring wrestlers, he is also the few people he was probably scared of to given the respect Benoit commanded, almost Taker esq backstage but not as much because he wasn’t a WWE lifer but it says something that he was highly regarded despite that.

I love both to, Benoit angle a bit more given the grit behind it. The match to me was the greatest triple threat I have ever seen up until that point, then Unbreakable happened a year later, will need to revisit both.

Brock / Goldberg was a massive dream match, it’s difficult to take smark sentiment into account and book around that, it is easy to say now but I would have booked these two matches instead:

Rock vs Brock 2, then again would be interesting to see how that would have been received to or you could have gone with Mick Foley vs Brock in a no holds barred match

Goldberg vs Batista, most likely Batista would get cheered like a face but who cares, they want to make him a star anyway and Berg was going to leave, the match would work better to

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hunter had immense respect for Benoit and what a throwback he was to the school of thought they scribed to as aspiring wrestlers, he is also the few people he was probably scared of to given the respect Benoit commanded, almost Taker esq backstage but not as much because he wasn’t a WWE lifer but it says something that he was highly regarded despite that.

I love both to, Benoit angle a bit more given the grit behind it. The match to me was the greatest triple threat I have ever seen up until that point, then Unbreakable happened a year later, will need to revisit both.

Brock / Goldberg was a massive dream match, it’s difficult to take smark sentiment into account and book around that, it is easy to say now but I would have booked these two matches instead:

Rock vs Brock 2, then again would be interesting to see how that would have been received to or you could have gone with Mick Foley vs Brock in a no holds barred match

Goldberg vs Batista, most likely Batista would get cheered like a face but who cares, they want to make him a star anyway and Berg was going to leave, the match would work better to

Yeah. You're right. Tbh I don't think anyone could have expected the kind of reaction that they got. Where the boos were so deafening that they couldn't even start their match.

That actually wouldn't have been bad. I'm not sure if Foley v Brock would have worked that well. Eventhough the crowd would have been 100% behind Mick. But the other two do sound like better match-ups with easy, straight-forward finishes.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Pretty good Dynamite this week. Some good matches on offer and the Christian/Luchasaurus segment didn't disappoint either. Jericho did a good promo too. AEW don't do more than four PPVs per year so these Supercards serve as mini-PPVs.

He may not be everyone’s cup of tea but once you get past the gimmick, you realize that Cassidy can really work. I thought the match between him and Wardlow had some pretty creative booking. Had lots of entertaining non-wrestling bits that didn't diminish Wardlow, and instead made him feel like a smart babyface. In the match, Wardlow didn’t come off looking weak either, but at the same time, Cassidy, who is a genuine star in AEW got enough and wasn’t just buried either. Moxley v Takeshita was fairly good. Whatever this Takeshita kid lacks in personality, he more than makes up for in the ring. And watching his matches gives you the impression that he is a big Undertaker fan.

Claudio tried his best with Hager. But I've come to the conclusion that Hager just isn't any freaking good.

The three-way tag title match was fun too, but I didn’t get the decision of putting the tag titles on Swerve and Keith Lee and came out of the match with a number of questions. For one thing, Swerve and Lee are not as over as a number of other guys and tag teams in the company. If they wanted to get the titles off the Bucks, why couldn’t they have put them on Starks & Hobbs? Who have not only been there for two years without winning any major titles, but were also the two guys who shined the most in this match.

The timing in regards to getting the titles off the Bucks is curious. Most of the fans were expecting a ‘Winner Take All’ match between the Bucks and FTR at All Out, which is AEW’s biggest/second biggest PPV of the year depending on who you ask. It can still happen and this may just be a case of hotshotting the belts for a rating. But I think many fans now will logically think that the Bucks don’t want to do the job for FTR. Which isn’t even a far-fetched theory considering the Bucks buried FTR immediately after they came in to AEW and they’ve dominated the tag team division by booking themselves in the top spot since then.

It also devalues the tag belts and everything FTR has been doing when two guys who just came in get them quicker than a tag team that isn't just the best tag team in the business, but is also the tag team fans are most behind right now.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Gotta say I am super pumped for the ROH PPV now. Despite the lack of build, the match-ups on the card are mouth-watering.

- Two of the hottest young prospects Daniel Garcia and Wheeler Yuta going at it in a Pure Rules match, which will likely be a great showcase for both guys
- Joe v Jay Lethal for the TV title. Bot guys know each other very well, which could give us a very good match.
- Claudio potentially winning the ROH World Title for the first time against Gresham.

And most of all, the rematch to end all rematches: FTR v The Briscoes. And this time its 2/3 falls. I haven't been this excited for a match since the last time FTR faced The Briscoes. Which absolutely exceeded my expectations and is the greatest tag team match of the modern era in my humble opinion. I can only imagine what these two legendary tag teams will do now that they've gotten the perfect stipulation to outshine their own previous match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Pretty good Dynamite this week. Some good matches on offer and the Christian/Luchasaurus segment didn't disappoint either. Jericho did a good promo too. AEW don't do more than four PPVs per year so these Supercards serve as mini-PPVs.

He may not be everyone’s cup of tea but once you get past the gimmick, you realize that Cassidy can really work. I thought the match between him and Wardlow had some pretty creative booking. Had lots of entertaining non-wrestling bits that didn't diminish Wardlow, and instead made him feel like a smart babyface. In the match, Wardlow didn’t come off looking weak either, but at the same time, Cassidy, who is a genuine star in AEW got enough and wasn’t just buried either. Moxley v Takeshita was fairly good. Whatever this Takeshita kid lacks in personality, he more than makes up for in the ring. And watching his matches gives you the impression that he is a big Undertaker fan.

Claudio tried his best with Hager. But I've come to the conclusion that Hager just isn't any freaking good.

The three-way tag title match was fun too, but I didn’t get the decision of putting the tag titles on Swerve and Keith Lee and came out of the match with a number of questions. For one thing, Swerve and Lee are not as over as a number of other guys and tag teams in the company. If they wanted to get the titles off the Bucks, why couldn’t they have put them on Starks & Hobbs? Who have not only been there for two years without winning any major titles, but were also the two guys who shined the most in this match.

The timing in regards to getting the titles off the Bucks is curious. Most of the fans were expecting a ‘Winner Take All’ match between the Bucks and FTR at All Out, which is AEW’s biggest/second biggest PPV of the year depending on who you ask. It can still happen and this may just be a case of hotshotting the belts for a rating. But I think many fans now will logically think that the Bucks don’t want to do the job for FTR. Which isn’t even a far-fetched theory considering the Bucks buried FTR immediately after they came in to AEW and they’ve dominated the tag team division by booking themselves in the top spot since then.

It also devalues the tag belts and everything FTR has been doing when two guys who just came in get them quicker than a tag team that isn't just the best tag team in the business, but is also the tag team fans are most behind right now.

FTR and Bucks get most of the credit for being the best tag teams but I think there are a few other teams that don't get enough buzz/mentions/love.

1. DIY - a makeshift tag team that brought the best out of FTR earlier in their career. Think Gargano and Ciampa could come into contention among the best teams had they performed together for some more time.

2. War Raiders - Not the Viking Raiders of Raw/SD. The War Raiders/Machine of the indie circuit/NXT/Japan. I think they can match toe to toe with FTR or maybe outwrestle them. They were a huge hit on NXT as well after ruling the indie circuit for a while. Even without much storyline, they delivered one great match after the other.

3. American Alpha - Extremely underrated as well. Jordan's retirement means there won't be any more american alpha matches. Plus I think their finisher Grand Amplitude was a thing of beauty.

4. Redragon - Obviously.

5. Burch and Lorcan - I think no one took them seriously. But they proved themselves to be a very good tag team and actually won the crowd over with their wrestling rather than characters.

New Day and The Usos are definitely in the top echelon of tag teams as well. The New Day/Usos feud of 2017 was gold.

The most overrated tag team in my opinion is Gallows/Anderson. They are just not good enough anymore. Can't maintain the intensity for more than 5 mins and gas out.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

FTR and Bucks get most of the credit for being the best tag teams but I think there are a few other teams that don't get enough buzz/mentions/love.

1. DIY - a makeshift tag team that brought the best out of FTR earlier in their career. Think Gargano and Ciampa could come into contention among the best teams had they performed together for some more time.

2. War Raiders - Not the Viking Raiders of Raw/SD. The War Raiders/Machine of the indie circuit/NXT/Japan. I think they can match toe to toe with FTR or maybe outwrestle them. They were a huge hit on NXT as well after ruling the indie circuit for a while. Even without much storyline, they delivered one great match after the other.

3. American Alpha - Extremely underrated as well. Jordan's retirement means there won't be any more american alpha matches. Plus I think their finisher Grand Amplitude was a thing of beauty.

4. Redragon - Obviously.

5. Burch and Lorcan - I think no one took them seriously. But they proved themselves to be a very good tag team and actually won the crowd over with their wrestling rather than characters.

New Day and The Usos are definitely in the top echelon of tag teams as well. The New Day/Usos feud of 2017 was gold.

The most overrated tag team in my opinion is Gallows/Anderson. They are just not good enough anymore. Can't maintain the intensity for more than 5 mins and gas out.

I liked DIY, American Alpha and Lacan/Burch in NXT. And reDragon are right up there as well. Wasn't ever a fan of War Raiders. They always struck me as yet another low-rent version of the Road Warriors. Just like that tag team from NXT: The Ascension. But I absolutely hate The New Day and The Usos and personally, I don't feel they rank in any kind of list of the great modern tag teams. Both have been having the same matches for years and there's nothing fresh or interesting about their matches to me. The Usos infact have been having the same matches for over a decade.

At the end of the day though, I think no team comes close to FTR. Who are simply the best in every single way. They are a tag team that could have made it in any era of pro wrestling because everything they do in the ring is timeless and makes 100% sense.

The Bucks, reDragon and The Briscoes would be in the next category. And The Lucha Brothers are perhaps a notch below, because despite their propensity to botch stuff up, they can still put on whopper matches. Especially with The Bucks.

But for me, that's about it when it comes to the best modern day tag teams.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I liked DIY, American Alpha and Lacan/Burch in NXT. And reDragon are right up there as well. Wasn't ever a fan of War Raiders. They always struck me as yet another low-rent version of the Road Warriors. Just like that tag team from NXT: The Ascension. But I absolutely hate The New Day and The Usos and personally, I don't feel they rank in any kind of list of the great modern tag teams. Both have been having the same matches for years and there's nothing fresh or interesting about their matches to me. The Usos infact have been having the same matches for over a decade.

At the end of the day though, I think no team comes close to FTR. Who are simply the best in every single way. They are a tag team that could have made it in any era of pro wrestling because everything they do in the ring is timeless and makes 100% sense.

The Bucks, reDragon and The Briscoes would be in the next category. And The Lucha Brothers are perhaps a notch below, because despite their propensity to botch stuff up, they can still put on whopper matches. Especially with The Bucks.

But for me, that's about it when it comes to the best modern day tag teams.

Think DIY and American Alpha could have been so much more had they not been broken up. With DIY you can see that they were too good to not go solo.
War Raiders are actually very good. They have been butchered by WWE though. They've had success pretty much everywhere.

I actually liked Usos heel run of 2017. They were a lot more grounded during that period. I think New Day gets bashed more due to their non serious gimmick. Kofi/BigE actually were extremely good.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think DIY and American Alpha could have been so much more had they not been broken up. With DIY you can see that they were too good to not go solo.
War Raiders are actually very good. They have been butchered by WWE though. They've had success pretty much everywhere.

I actually liked Usos heel run of 2017. They were a lot more grounded during that period. I think New Day gets bashed more due to their non serious gimmick. Kofi/BigE actually were extremely good.

I've seen their work in ROH when they were War Machine. Like I said, all I saw was yet another cheap Road Warriors imitation. And even if you think they are good, the way they have been presented and booked of the 3+ years sorta disqualifies them from being mentioned in the same breath as the best tag teams. The Usos on the other hand have been presented in that top tag team spot for years. Especially since 2020. But the only time I've liked or cared bout them is now. And that's because they are great at being Reigns' flunkies. In the ring they've pretty much always been doing the same 5-6 moves. And all their feuds feel stale and like something you've seen a million times. Whether its their feud with The New Day, Street Profits, or some other tag team that they are feuding with for the umpteenth time. And The New Day I despise most of all. The primary reason for that is that they are aimed at kids. But I have never been impressed by their work as a tag team either.

WWE's tag division is an absolute travesty in my book. And has been for years. Pretty much since 2001-02 when they last had Edge/Christian Hardyz and Dudleyz, and then later when they put Los Guerreros, Benoit/Angle and Edge/Mysterio together on SD! And the biggest reason that tag team wrestling has rarely ever mattered in WWE is because Vince does not care about tag team wrestling. For him its a stepping stone for wrestlers to bigger and better things. Which is why it always feels like an afterthought.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I've seen their work in ROH when they were War Machine. Like I said, all I saw was yet another cheap Road Warriors imitation. And even if you think they are good, the way they have been presented and booked of the 3+ years sorta disqualifies them from being mentioned in the same breath as the best tag teams. The Usos on the other hand have been presented in that top tag team spot for years. Especially since 2020. But the only time I've liked or cared bout them is now. And that's because they are great at being Reigns' flunkies. In the ring they've pretty much always been doing the same 5-6 moves. And all their feuds feel stale and like something you've seen a million times. Whether its their feud with The New Day, Street Profits, or some other tag team that they are feuding with for the umpteenth time. And The New Day I despise most of all. The primary reason for that is that they are aimed at kids. But I have never been impressed by their work as a tag team either.

WWE's tag division is an absolute travesty in my book. And has been for years. Pretty much since 2001-02 when they last had Edge/Christian Hardyz and Dudleyz, and then later when they put Los Guerreros, Benoit/Angle and Edge/Mysterio together on SD! And the biggest reason that tag team wrestling has rarely ever mattered in WWE is because Vince does not care about tag team wrestling. For him its a stepping stone for wrestlers to bigger and better things. Which is why it always feels like an afterthought.

New Day's 2016 run has been the most that Vince has cared about tag division in last decade or so. The Bloodline has gotten stale for some time now especially that they don't have any plans for them at all yet they are carrying 3 top belts.

IMO Usos and New Day can adapt on the indie scene as well. WWE booking isn't really New Day's fault.

War Raiders vs Ricochet/Black at Takeover 2019 was a brilliant match. They were relegated to a comedy act once they were called up to the main roster.

E&C, Dudleys and Hardyz made tag wrestling cool for the casual fans.

Moustache Mountain was another good team but they weren't really going to succeed in WWE due to their style.

Seth/KO actually showed some very good tag team dynamic earlier this year but that was pretty much expected from the level of performers they are.

 

[shaz619]

FTR are the most unique tag team out there especially as heels, they respect their division and can prance around to. Tag team character work is a part of the business to and as far as the USOS ring work is concerned, they pass the eye test and are right up there, we’ve seen what main event Jey Uso was capable of when given the chance to shine. USOS have been very consistent and can adapt to any environment really, working in Japan or the Indies or AEW or black and gold era NXT would be a walk in the park we seen what Hogan did with Muta and the USOS are like 10x more versatile, it is tougher to get over on the WWE main roster and they’ve been doing this for so long against all kinds of opposition which isn’t easy to do. New Day would get over anywhere based on their character work alone, three seriously talented dudes, not saying their ring work or IQ is FTR level then again FTR have weak characters, however your character can protect you wherever you go but they get it and have been very consistent. The matches we see are the usual, but nothing bad and that same formula can be applied to majority of the card, it’s no coincident when they leave the E you see a style you prefer more but we should give credit where due for getting over in the E, being big draws and doing it consistently over many years and an intense schedule, don’t forget how the New Day was put together, how they started and how they overcame, it wasn’t easy and I would have slapped you if you said two of their members would become world champion

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

New Day's 2016 run has been the most that Vince has cared about tag division in last decade or so. The Bloodline has gotten stale for some time now especially that they don't have any plans for them at all yet they are carrying 3 top belts.

IMO Usos and New Day can adapt on the indie scene as well. WWE booking isn't really New Day's fault.

War Raiders vs Ricochet/Black at Takeover 2019 was a brilliant match. They were relegated to a comedy act once they were called up to the main roster.

E&C, Dudleys and Hardyz made tag wrestling cool for the casual fans.

Moustache Mountain was another good team but they weren't really going to succeed in WWE due to their style.

Seth/KO actually showed some very good tag team dynamic earlier this year but that was pretty much expected from the level of performers they are.

I wouldn't say that he cared about the tag team division because based on what I've heard from people he has worked closely with, he has never cared about tag team wrestling. Even during the early 2000s. However, when someone is over he goes with them regardless of how he many feel about them personally. I do believe that Vince liked the New Day and their gimmick. I remember them saying that he was a big fan of the New Day in one of those WWE Network docs. from years ago. But at the end of the day the biggest reason he pushed them was because they were over. Which is how it should be.

Yeah I mean NXT was really the gold standard of tag team wrestling till it fell off a cliff and all the people who made their show great went to AEW. I think it was probably that American Alpha v FTR feud that started it all, but the DIY v FTR feud really took tag team wrestling to new heights in my opinion. Particularly their match at Takeover Brooklyn 2016, which might be one of my favorite tag team matches ever.

Prior to NXT and AEW, ROH was oftentimes a great place for tag team wrestling with teams like The Briscoes, Kings of Wrestling (Claudio & Chris Hero), American Wolves, Owens & Zayn. And though it doesn't get enough credit, TNA was an awesome place for tag team wrestling at various points of time too. Motor City Machine Guns, LAX, America's Most Wanted, The Addiction/Bad Influence, Beer Money, Aries/Roode all elevated that division. And even during those early days on Spike TNA's tag team division blew WWE's out of the water.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

FTR are the most unique tag team out there especially as heels, they respect their division and can prance around to. Tag team character work is a part of the business to and as far as the USOS ring work is concerned, they pass the eye test and are right up there, we’ve seen what main event Jey Uso was capable of when given the chance to shine. USOS have been very consistent and can adapt to any environment really, working in Japan or the Indies or AEW or black and gold era NXT would be a walk in the park we seen what Hogan did with Muta and the USOS are like 10x more versatile, it is tougher to get over on the WWE main roster and they’ve been doing this for so long against all kinds of opposition which isn’t easy to do. New Day would get over anywhere based on their character work alone, three seriously talented dudes, not saying their ring work or IQ is FTR level then again FTR have weak characters, however your character can protect you wherever you go but they get it and have been very consistent. The matches we see are the usual, but nothing bad and that same formula can be applied to majority of the card, it’s no coincident when they leave the E you see a style you prefer more but we should give credit where due for getting over in the E, being big draws and doing it consistently over many years and an intense schedule, don’t forget how the New Day was put together, how they started and how they overcame, it wasn’t easy and I would have slapped you if you said two of their members would become world champion

Yeah but that's the thing, FTR don't need to have characters because they look, feel and sound like real people. There is nothing cartoonish and over the top about them. And I would argue that they are great babyfaces too as they have proven over the last few months. When it comes to in-ring work, I think no one can touch them because they apply classical, time-tested psychology to their wrestling whether they are wrestling as heels or babyfaces. As heels they can cut the ring in half, as babyfaces they can get the crowd to build toa fever pitch. And that's what sets them apart from everyone in the business. The Briscoe Brothers are great for similar reasons. Like you believe that these two are a couple of redneck hillbillies who will probably beat the s**t out of you. Which is probably why this is such an amazing match-up. I remember we were talking about the best brawlers in the business not too long ago. The Briscoes have to be in that mix now that I think about it.

Usos have improved leaps and bounds inregards to character-work...especially when you consider where they started back in 2010/2011. And I do give them credit for getting over in an environment where tag team wrestling is treated as an afterthought by the people in charge. For that I give credit to New Day aswell.

And I'm not even saying that the Usos aren't good wrestlers but I don't see how they even come close to FTR. When I think of good Usos matches, the only match that comes to mind is Jey Uso v Roman Reigns at HIAC. And that was a singles match. I don't know if its down to WWE not giving two effs about their tag division, their booking, the never-ending feud with the Street Profits or the fact that they can do a limited moveset in that WWE environment but personally, I just don't think of them when I think of the best modern day tag teams. And the same applies to the New Day. The added thing with them is that I hate their gimmick and I am not a fan of their comedy.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah but that's the thing, FTR don't need to have characters because they look, feel and sound like real people. There is nothing cartoonish and over the top about them. And I would argue that they are great babyfaces too as they have proven over the last few months. When it comes to in-ring work, I think no one can touch them because they apply classical, time-tested psychology to their wrestling whether they are wrestling as heels or babyfaces. As heels they can cut the ring in half, as babyfaces they can get the crowd to build toa fever pitch. And that's what sets them apart from everyone in the business. The Briscoe Brothers are great for similar reasons. Like you believe that these two are a couple of redneck hillbillies who will probably beat the s**t out of you. Which is probably why this is such an amazing match-up. I remember we were talking about the best brawlers in the business not too long ago. The Briscoes have to be in that mix now that I think about it.

Usos have improved leaps and bounds inregards to character-work...especially when you consider where they started back in 2010/2011. And I do give them credit for getting over in an environment where tag team wrestling is treated as an afterthought by the people in charge. For that I give credit to New Day aswell.

And I'm not even saying that the Usos aren't good wrestlers but I don't see how they even come close to FTR. When I think of good Usos matches, the only match that comes to mind is Jey Uso v Roman Reigns at HIAC. And that was a singles match. I don't know if its down to WWE not giving two effs about their tag division, their booking, the never-ending feud with the Street Profits or the fact that they can do a limited moveset in that WWE environment but personally, I just don't think of them when I think of the best modern day tag teams. And the same applies to the New Day. The added thing with them is that I hate their gimmick and I am not a fan of their comedy.

In my opinion, from what I’ve seen from the Usos they pass the eye test and it wouldn’t shock me in the least if they had even better matches then what we’ve seen in their careers so far if they left the WWE, they are samoan. The FTR had the benefit of working for Hunter during the black and gold era, if you only watched them on the main roster chances are you wouldn’t have such a high opinion of their ring abilities. WWE and to be frank most promotions in NA, treat the tag division like a big spot fest so I never gave a crap about it and enjoyed the popcorn flips during PPV’s and drama built around that, there have been rare instances when they’ve build up an angle well whether it was the Rhodes family’s arc enroute to winning, Usos/New-Day at the start and even though it involved factions the 6 man tag stuff between The Shield, Wyatt Family and Evolution was fun.

FTR having weak characters is not a criticism due to how over they can get in the ring because they got their own thing going very few will be the whole package, but character work, consistency and drawing power over many many years / work rate are not qualities which are to be downplayed when looking at the best modern tag teams. If we are looking at pure ring ability as tag wrestlers no one will beat FTR although they are still building their resume, but if we also judge them in other areas there are more successful tag teams. I would personally go out of my way to watch FTR wrestle ahead of most but wouldn’t go out of my way to see what they have to say weekly or their angles with others

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I wouldn't say that he cared about the tag team division because based on what I've heard from people he has worked closely with, he has never cared about tag team wrestling. Even during the early 2000s. However, when someone is over he goes with them regardless of how he many feel about them personally. I do believe that Vince liked the New Day and their gimmick. I remember them saying that he was a big fan of the New Day in one of those WWE Network docs. from years ago. But at the end of the day the biggest reason he pushed them was because they were over. Which is how it should be.

Yeah I mean NXT was really the gold standard of tag team wrestling till it fell off a cliff and all the people who made their show great went to AEW. I think it was probably that American Alpha v FTR feud that started it all, but the DIY v FTR feud really took tag team wrestling to new heights in my opinion. Particularly their match at Takeover Brooklyn 2016, which might be one of my favorite tag team matches ever.

Prior to NXT and AEW, ROH was oftentimes a great place for tag team wrestling with teams like The Briscoes, Kings of Wrestling (Claudio & Chris Hero), American Wolves, Owens & Zayn. And though it doesn't get enough credit, TNA was an awesome place for tag team wrestling at various points of time too. Motor City Machine Guns, LAX, America's Most Wanted, The Addiction/Bad Influence, Beer Money, Aries/Roode all elevated that division. And even during those early days on Spike TNA's tag team division blew WWE's out of the water.

TNA could have been actually a whole lot better had they not made some howlers (like bringing in Hogan, Flair and Bischoff, giving Dixie an on screen character etc etc) Angle, Joe, AJ, Daniels, Aries, Sting, Beer Money, Jeff etc all had very good runs there in terms of in ring matches. I think Kurt and AJ did some of the best work there and that doesn't get much attention.

Yes FTR, American Alpha, DIY these three were my favorites which is why I think DIY and Alpha are hugely underrated. DIY took that underdog/hot tag against the heels to a whole different level then. And Alpha were just extremely well rounded in every way. It got a bit diluted once AOP and Sanity came in who I don't rate as good enough. But I loved the Raiders-Undisputed Era feud.

Plus I think Joe/Balor as a tag team was a pretty cool duo and meshed together well.

But I wouldn't say New Day and Usos can't hang in with them. I think they can go toe to toe with them if it were not taking place on the main roster cause of the booking of tag teams on the main roster.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

FTR are the most unique tag team out there especially as heels, they respect their division and can prance around to. Tag team character work is a part of the business to and as far as the USOS ring work is concerned, they pass the eye test and are right up there, we’ve seen what main event Jey Uso was capable of when given the chance to shine. USOS have been very consistent and can adapt to any environment really, working in Japan or the Indies or AEW or black and gold era NXT would be a walk in the park we seen what Hogan did with Muta and the USOS are like 10x more versatile, it is tougher to get over on the WWE main roster and they’ve been doing this for so long against all kinds of opposition which isn’t easy to do. New Day would get over anywhere based on their character work alone, three seriously talented dudes, not saying their ring work or IQ is FTR level then again FTR have weak characters, however your character can protect you wherever you go but they get it and have been very consistent. The matches we see are the usual, but nothing bad and that same formula can be applied to majority of the card, it’s no coincident when they leave the E you see a style you prefer more but we should give credit where due for getting over in the E, being big draws and doing it consistently over many years and an intense schedule, don’t forget how the New Day was put together, how they started and how they overcame, it wasn’t easy and I would have slapped you if you said two of their members would become world champion

New Day and Usos do feature in my top tag teams of the last decade or so. They have been consistently good even when they aren't given much to work with. Like they made a feud with themselves one of the hottest feud during 2017 without having any real storyline or something just on the back of character work and red hot fast paced matches. I rate Raiders highly as well although they have been butchered by the main roster.

 

[shaz619]

New Day and Usos do feature in my top tag teams of the last decade or so. They have been consistently good even when they aren't given much to work with. Like they made a feud with themselves one of the hottest feud during 2017 without having any real storyline or something just on the back of character work and red hot fast paced matches. I rate Raiders highly as well although they have been butchered by the main roster.

New Day and the Usos are credible ring performers but also found a way to thrive with their character work which isn’t easy on national TV, unfortunately for War Raiders they were turned into a circus act but I don’t know didn’t they try to re-build them recently? this is just one of many examples of a very talented group who found it tough on the main roster, you can put it down to a combination of reasons.

I agree I’d put them up there with the best really. I’ve been to a few house shows during the time when ND were hot, a big chunk of the time they were headlining and the audience going nuts pre and post show for the faction, their numbers speak as well with the merch and cross over appeal, I felt a singles run for one of them under the ND gimmick was bound to happen to

 

[BunnyRabbit]

New Day and the Usos are credible ring performers but also found a way to thrive with their character work which isn’t easy on national TV, unfortunately for War Raiders they were turned into a circus act but I don’t know didn’t they try to re-build them recently? this is just one of many examples of a very talented group who found it tough on the main roster, you can put it down to a combination of reasons.

I agree I’d put them up there with the best really. I’ve been to a few house shows during the time when ND were hot, a big chunk of the time they were headlining and the audience going nuts pre and post show for the faction, their numbers speak as well with the merch and cross over appeal, I felt a singles run for one of them under the ND gimmick was bound to happen to

They are rebuilding them as heels. But I don't get changing their name to The New and Vicious Viking Raiders. Like that's so self aware for Vikings lol.

If only Vince and co can let the good tag teams have good tag matches rather than feeding them to monsters(Omos) or needlessly having them compete in singles matches during a team feud.

Fandago and Tyler Breeze was another tag team that had a stupid gimmick but they found themselves to get over with that and in addition to that their in ring work had improved leaps and bounds during their last days in NXT before they got released.

 

[shaz619]

They are rebuilding them as heels. But I don't get changing their name to The New and Vicious Viking Raiders. Like that's so self aware for Vikings lol.

If only Vince and co can let the good tag teams have good tag matches rather than feeding them to monsters(Omos) or needlessly having them compete in singles matches during a team feud.

Fandago and Tyler Breeze was another tag team that had a stupid gimmick but they found themselves to get over with that and in addition to that their in ring work had improved leaps and bounds during their last days in NXT before they got released.

NXT had an incredible tag team division, for the first time in years I tuned into it regular. Vaudevillains and American Alpha were brilliant as well, not to mention Tyler Bate and Trent Seven. The depth was truly unprecedented, that hasn’t been matched ever since, now it’s more of one or two teams shining among a pile of dung but then it was a shark tank and each team was worthy of the championship

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

TNA could have been actually a whole lot better had they not made some howlers (like bringing in Hogan, Flair and Bischoff, giving Dixie an on screen character etc etc) Angle, Joe, AJ, Daniels, Aries, Sting, Beer Money, Jeff etc all had very good runs there in terms of in ring matches. I think Kurt and AJ did some of the best work there and that doesn't get much attention.

Yes FTR, American Alpha, DIY these three were my favorites which is why I think DIY and Alpha are hugely underrated. DIY took that underdog/hot tag against the heels to a whole different level then. And Alpha were just extremely well rounded in every way. It got a bit diluted once AOP and Sanity came in who I don't rate as good enough. But I loved the Raiders-Undisputed Era feud.

Plus I think Joe/Balor as a tag team was a pretty cool duo and meshed together well.

But I wouldn't say New Day and Usos can't hang in with them. I think they can go toe to toe with them if it were not taking place on the main roster cause of the booking of tag teams on the main roster.

I think even more than that it was an organization run by people who did not understand what it took to make a wrestling promotion successful. They simply weren't interested in putting serious money into TNA. And this included both Dixie's dad's company and the network. They did not want to put enough money into marketing and they weren't interested in taking the show on the road either. Instead they were content with taping the show every week from a soundstage in Universal Studios where half the audience was diehard fans while the other half was random visitors who had just wandered in while seeing the sights. There's nothing wrong with doing a wrestling show in a soundstage. But if you want to progress and not stay in the same place, than its maybe not a great idea. Because it gives off the perception that you are minor league.

I actually enjoyed alot of stuff from the Hogan-Bischoff era. That era of TNA had some of the most entertaining storylines, angles and segments in TNA's history. Granted, some of them were unintentionally funny but they were entertaining nonetheless. Dixie though was beyond awful. She wanted to be the female Vince McMahon, eventhough she had none of the talent, ability or personality of Vince.

Oh yeah agree big time. AOP really diluted that feud. They were green and nowhere near the other four's level.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In my opinion, from what I’ve seen from the Usos they pass the eye test and it wouldn’t shock me in the least if they had even better matches then what we’ve seen in their careers so far if they left the WWE, they are samoan. The FTR had the benefit of working for Hunter during the black and gold era, if you only watched them on the main roster chances are you wouldn’t have such a high opinion of their ring abilities. WWE and to be frank most promotions in NA, treat the tag division like a big spot fest so I never gave a crap about it and enjoyed the popcorn flips during PPV’s and drama built around that, there have been rare instances when they’ve build up an angle well whether it was the Rhodes family’s arc enroute to winning, Usos/New-Day at the start and even though it involved factions the 6 man tag stuff between The Shield, Wyatt Family and Evolution was fun.

FTR having weak characters is not a criticism due to how over they can get in the ring because they got their own thing going very few will be the whole package, but character work, consistency and drawing power over many many years / work rate are not qualities which are to be downplayed when looking at the best modern tag teams. If we are looking at pure ring ability as tag wrestlers no one will beat FTR although they are still building their resume, but if we also judge them in other areas there are more successful tag teams. I would personally go out of my way to watch FTR wrestle ahead of most but wouldn’t go out of my way to see what they have to say weekly or their angles with others

I did watch FTR on the main roster while I was catching up with all the stuff from that period, and its funny you say that because I literally can't remember a single feud that they had when they were there. All I remember is that they held the tag titles on both brands. But that's about all I remember. Which again, speaks to how WWE treats tag team wrestling. I think WWE is far worse in this regard than other NA territories. Mexico and the US indies may be spotfests, but atleast they are giving a spotlight to tag team wrestling and playing to their audience that likes that kind of a stuff.

I don't doubt that. The Usos's ringwork is solid. They have been in the business for more than a decade so I am sure that if they were given the leeway, they would have great matches. But the fact that they are in WWE and haven’t actually had those incredible matches that FTR has had in NXT and AEW has to count for something too when talking about the best tag teams.

No doubt they have alot to accomplish. They are only just getting started. Personally, though I think they are great promos too. Especially Dax. And their angles are grounded in logic and reality-based storytelling. So for me they have all bases covered. I do think though that when all is said and they will do down in history as one of the greatest tag teams of all-time.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The Undertaker episode of A&E Biography series was really good. And a must watch for people who were a fan of the Deadman...which I guess would include just about everyone who was a wrestling fan between 1991 and the early 2010s.

What I liked about this one though was what Taker had to say about just about everything; from breaking into the business to the seminal moments of his career. Coz when you think about it, he hasn't really said much of anything about his career or all these big moments because of how committed he has been to protecting the gimmick. For me, watching The Last Ride mini-series was a jarring experience because it was really the first time that I heard The Undertaker talk so deeply about anything. So I can definitely imagine this doc. being something similar for other people.

But one thing that stands out here is how intelligent Taker is when it comes to thinking about the business. I guess that explains why he is the only one whose gimmick has endured multiple eras of wrestling while still staying fresh throughout.

And when you think about it, has there really been anyone in the history of wrestling who has had 30 years in the business and always been featured on-top, in the main-event position? Because I can't.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I do find it funny though that a WWE documentary series about former WWE stars is drawing more viewers than one of WWE's weekly wrestling shows. Sums up the state of WWE and the wrestling business in today's world.

 

[shaz619]

I did watch FTR on the main roster while I was catching up with all the stuff from that period, and its funny you say that because I literally can't remember a single feud that they had when they were there. All I remember is that they held the tag titles on both brands. But that's about all I remember. Which again, speaks to how WWE treats tag team wrestling. I think WWE is far worse in this regard than other NA territories. Mexico and the US indies may be spotfests, but atleast they are giving a spotlight to tag team wrestling and playing to their audience that likes that kind of a stuff.

I don't doubt that. The Usos's ringwork is solid. They have been in the business for more than a decade so I am sure that if they were given the leeway, they would have great matches. But the fact that they are in WWE and haven’t actually had those incredible matches that FTR has had in NXT and AEW has to count for something too when talking about the best tag teams.

No doubt they have alot to accomplish. They are only just getting started. Personally, though I think they are great promos too. Especially Dax. And their angles are grounded in logic and reality-based storytelling. So for me they have all bases covered. I do think though that when all is said and they will do down in history as one of the greatest tag teams of all-time.

WWE gets criticise for the sake of being WWE by default and everything else more attractive, but as far as the tag scene is concerned there is very little difference in the North American high spot style which smarks tend to enjoy outside black and gold era NXT and probably NWA Powerr s1, TNA had a focussed shift at one point to. The spotlight is massive in the E, weekly episodic TV, house shows, big crowds, stadiums etc it’s tougher to get over and that’s why you need to be more than a good worker / may even get tasked to headline live events if you’re good, you’re also working with a variety of talent and not your favourite workers, to succeed in such a set up elevates your legacy imo, I don’t think those who have been successful have anything more to prove. The FTR are ATG’s among heel tag teams for me despite their short sample because of the special performances in NXT / no one can work that way even in such a set up, that run alone has not been matched since, they can certainly improve on the character side and promo but need to rely on shrewd booking.

 

[shaz619]

I do find it funny though that a WWE documentary series about former WWE stars is drawing more viewers than one of WWE's weekly wrestling shows. Sums up the state of WWE and the wrestling business in today's world.

Those specials are really good though and the E’s weekly shows have been running forever, on the flip side it is amazing to still be going strong to this day, as much as it would be great for certain changes for us hardcore fans, their driving audience has always been the casuals for most of their history apart from the AE and RA eras probably

 

[shaz619]

The Undertaker episode of A&E Biography series was really good. And a must watch for people who were a fan of the Deadman...which I guess would include just about everyone who was a wrestling fan between 1991 and the early 2010s.

What I liked about this one though was what Taker had to say about just about everything; from breaking into the business to the seminal moments of his career. Coz when you think about it, he hasn't really said much of anything about his career or all these big moments because of how committed he has been to protecting the gimmick. For me, watching The Last Ride mini-series was a jarring experience because it was really the first time that I heard The Undertaker talk so deeply about anything. So I can definitely imagine this doc. being something similar for other people.

But one thing that stands out here is how intelligent Taker is when it comes to thinking about the business. I guess that explains why he is the only one whose gimmick has endured multiple eras of wrestling while still staying fresh throughout.

And when you think about it, has there really been anyone in the history of wrestling who has had 30 years in the business and always been featured on-top, in the main-event position? Because I can't.

I have not see A and E but the Last Ride series was eye opening, especially the constant pain he was in, delaying surgery, taking those injections before matches and really struggling to do those matches once a year. I think it’s moronic for some idiots to say anyone could have played the Taker gimmick, a load of ********, and thing is he changed things up along the way and at one point restrained his ring work during the 90’s to get his persona over. Which Taker was your favourite incarnation ?

I liked the Ministry of Darkness lol

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

What have you seen from FTR that surpasses anything in NXT? I havent followed religiously, am going to watch their ROH PPV match though, any backstory I need to know? but am just planning on enjoying the match they are heels right? or is that the Briscoes

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

WWE gets criticise for the sake of being WWE by default and everything else more attractive, but as far as the tag scene is concerned there is very little difference in the North American high spot style which smarks tend to enjoy outside black and gold era NXT and probably NWA Powerr s1, TNA had a focussed shift at one point to. The spotlight is massive in the E, weekly episodic TV, house shows, big crowds, stadiums etc it’s tougher to get over and that’s why you need to be more than a good worker / may even get tasked to headline live events if you’re good, you’re also working with a variety of talent and not your favourite workers, to succeed in such a set up elevates your legacy imo, I don’t think those who have been successful have anything more to prove. The FTR are ATG’s among heel tag teams for me despite their short sample because of the special performances in NXT / no one can work that way even in such a set up, that run alone has not been matched since, they can certainly improve on the character side and promo but need to rely on shrewd booking.

Yeah but let's not forget that WWE has conditioned the fans to not care about TV matches too. There are so many DQs, count-outs and just general B.S finishes on one week of WWE TV that the fans have understood at this point that they are not supposed to care about any of these matches. I noticed this on Raw this week when Theory came out to cut a promo. And the promo was getting a pretty decent reaction from the crowd. But as soon as the match started the crowd just went quiet. And the match was Theory v AJ freakin Styles.

On top of that so many talents are saddled with idiotic gimmicks written by failed comedy writers that its impossible for them to get over even if they try. I mean just look at Elias's current gimmick or what they have done with poor L.A Knight on SmackDown. The LA Knight stuff in particular is just embarrassing. Especially because he has already shown on NXT what a talented worker and promo he is. I agree with your point that there is no shortage of good wrestlers with vanilla personalities in WWE or the wrestling business. But I think WWE has made it even harder for their talent to get over with the way they book their shows,

I think AEW is well-positioned to get more out of their tag division if they just dial down on their love for these PWG-style spotfest party matches. They can be enjoyable from time to time in the same way that a dumb action blockbuster is. But thing is you can only turn your brain off so many times. Sooner or later you start getting conditioned to these type of matches, and then you see through them rather than enjoying them. The same is true for all things with surface level appeal because there is nothing deep to sink your teeth into. Which is why such matches should be done sparingly instead of on every show, which is what AEW does.

But coming back to the topic at hand, I think alot can still be done with AEW's tag division because of the presence of FTR, reDragon, Bryan/Mox, Hobbs/Starks, House of Black....basically anyone who doesn't ascribe exclusively to the Young Bucks School of Tag Team wrestling.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I have not see A and E but the Last Ride series was eye opening, especially the constant pain he was in, delaying surgery, taking those injections before matches and really struggling to do those matches once a year. I think it’s moronic for some idiots to say anyone could have played the Taker gimmick, a load of ********, and thing is he changed things up along the way and at one point restrained his ring work during the 90’s to get his persona over. Which Taker was your favourite incarnation ?

I liked the Ministry of Darkness lol

That's such B.S lol. Its the kind of stuff you expect to hear from people who have recently got into wrestling and can never truly grasp everything The Undertaker was. At the end of the day, no one but Mark Calaway could have made that gimmick work. And the fact that he preserved the mystique and presented the gimmick as who he was, was why the gimmick endured for decades. Because though people knew that there was a guy behind the gimmick, they had no way of verifying it because there were no freakin DVDs of Undertaker shoot interviews and no one had seen him as anyone but The Undertaker; whether it was at airports, autograph signings or TV appearances. That's something the modern day wrestlers can never truly appreciate or understand because they've grown up in the age of social media and the internet.

I have a big soft-spot for Big Evil: the better version of the American Badass gimmick. But I have to go with Prince of Darkness Taker. Which would have been between 1997-98...right before the Ministry of Darkness Taker. That incarnation for me perfectly encapsulated what Undertaker was supposed to be.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah but let's not forget that WWE has conditioned the fans to not care about TV matches too. There are so many DQs, count-outs and just general B.S finishes on one week of WWE TV that the fans have understood at this point that they are not supposed to care about any of these matches. I noticed this on Raw this week when Theory came out to cut a promo. And the promo was getting a pretty decent reaction from the crowd. But as soon as the match started the crowd just went quiet. And the match was Theory v AJ freakin Styles.

On top of that so many talents are saddled with idiotic gimmicks written by failed comedy writers that its impossible for them to get over even if they try. I mean just look at Elias's current gimmick or what they have done with poor L.A Knight on SmackDown. The LA Knight stuff in particular is just embarrassing. Especially because he has already shown on NXT what a talented worker and promo he is. I agree with your point that there is no shortage of good wrestlers with vanilla personalities in WWE or the wrestling business. But I think WWE has made it even harder for their talent to get over with the way they book their shows,

I think AEW is well-positioned to get more out of their tag division if they just dial down on their love for these PWG-style spotfest party matches. They can be enjoyable from time to time in the same way that a dumb action blockbuster is. But thing is you can only turn your brain off so many times. Sooner or later you start getting conditioned to these type of matches, and then you see through them rather than enjoying them. The same is true for all things with surface level appeal because there is nothing deep to sink your teeth into. Which is why such matches should be done sparingly instead of on every show, which is what AEW does.

But coming back to the topic at hand, I think alot can still be done with AEW's tag division because of the presence of FTR, reDragon, Bryan/Mox, Hobbs/Starks, House of Black....basically anyone who doesn't ascribe exclusively to the Young Bucks School of Tag Team wrestling.

The audience has evolved now, I’ve noticed not many smarks attend your typical weekly shows. I’ve not heard any stupid chants in a long time. The audience and how receptive they are can vary, I’ve been to shows where I was near the front row but happy to be sat and enjoy the match (Rey v Andrade) then pop every second, it doesn’t say a lot but I agree that there are a big chunk of matches with not enough clean finishes, its been that way for a long time but generally they give the main event decent amount of time, Reigns v Riddle was great, it’s not consistent but from time to time they give away these matches for free, for the most part especially in the past I use to follow up on RAW or SD mainly for the promos and the main event segment. Many of these fans who would have done the same as me have switched to AEW, that show isn’t perfect either, I genuinely think their most passionate fans who popped for Kingston and Jericho in that death match must be autistic, garbage wrestling like that is a stain on the industry and even their youtube highlights could not hide how awful the match was, it’s sad to see Jericho ruin his legacy with this shtick, it also makes me think twice on whether or not the wrestlers are at fault when this is a recurring theme.

Yeah they have some good names in their division but the organisation lacks structure and Tony is using the Vince Russo template of booking with the overbooking theatrics and shock value drama, it’s basically a pound shop Attitude era and Tony feels he can monetise the product in the same way, he could be right but I wasn’t a massive mark for the AE era either really, but if fans like that each to their own

 

[shaz619]

That's such B.S lol. Its the kind of stuff you expect to hear from people who have recently got into wrestling and can never truly grasp everything The Undertaker was. At the end of the day, no one but Mark Calaway could have made that gimmick work. And the fact that he preserved the mystique and presented the gimmick as who he was, was why the gimmick endured for decades. Because though people knew that there was a guy behind the gimmick, they had no way of verifying it because there were no freakin DVDs of Undertaker shoot interviews and no one had seen him as anyone but The Undertaker; whether it was at airports, autograph signings or TV appearances. That's something the modern day wrestlers can never truly appreciate or understand because they've grown up in the age of social media and the internet.

I have a big soft-spot for Big Evil: the better version of the American Badass gimmick. But I have to go with Prince of Darkness Taker. Which would have been between 1997-98...right before the Ministry of Darkness Taker. That incarnation for me perfectly encapsulated what Undertaker was supposed to be.

There’s a thread on here where some Indians are posting stuff like anyone could have played the gimmick ) typical lmao

He took the kayfabe to another level and if there was any doubt the doc’s you highlighted where he finally breaks the wall should emphasise how deeply involved he was with the character in a way which is rarely possible now and the commitment and dedication was something else.

Yes I loved that version to the Prince of Darkness and the transition to the Ministry, that is my all time favourite and I loved Biker Taker to. As the Prince he opened up on the ring work side of things to, can’t imagine how tough it must have been to work between 1990-1996 when you are forced to contain yourself, you look now and people can’t help doing 20 moves in a minute FTR are throwbacks to those days and with them being huge Bret marks, it shows in their work, ah I need to watch the old Takeover shows again best era for Tag wrestling this century outside the early 2000’s gimmick match boom

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

What have you seen from FTR that surpasses anything in NXT? I havent followed religiously, am going to watch their ROH PPV match though, any backstory I need to know? but am just planning on enjoying the match they are heels right? or is that the Briscoes

I would say definitely check out their match against The Young Bucks from the April 6 episode of Dynamite, from earlier this year. Whether it surpasses their best NXT matches is subjective depending on the person. But I don't think anyone can deny that the quality of wrestling in that match is simply outstanding. And I think the biggest reason why that match works as well as it does is because The Young Bucks actually wrestle for once. For me its easily their best match in AEW.

Besides that, there are a few other matches too that I can't think of, off the top of my head. But I'd say for sure, check out the Bucks-FTR match.

The backstory has basically been that you have these two incredible tag teams...both of whom have been called the best tag team in the world by different people. And though both respect the heck out of each other, once the bell rings its about being 'the' best. Not one of the best or among the best...but the best. FTR got the win last time, they were the better team on the night. But now its 2/3 falls and now we will know once and for all who really is the best. Because there's no fluking a 2/3 falls match.

Last time FTR were heels. This time they are full-blown babyfaces and from what I can tell The Briscoes are babyfaces too, but they are leaning on the heel side in this feud and I'm certain they will work the match as heels because FTR matches are built on classical pro-wrestling foundations.

One thing AEW is really good at is doing these 30 minute UFC-style Countdown specials before every PPV. And they have done one for this ROH PPV too I would say definitely check it out. It's the only build/hype package that you need for this PPV and the match in question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_8jMBtB4dQ

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

There’s a thread on here where some Indians are posting stuff like anyone could have played the gimmick ) typical lmao

He took the kayfabe to another level and if there was any doubt the doc’s you highlighted where he finally breaks the wall should emphasise how deeply involved he was with the character in a way which is rarely possible now and the commitment and dedication was something else.

Yes I loved that version to the Prince of Darkness and the transition to the Ministry, that is my all time favourite and I loved Biker Taker to. As the Prince he opened up on the ring work side of things to, can’t imagine how tough it must have been to work between 1990-1996 when you are forced to contain yourself, you look now and people can’t help doing 20 moves in a minute FTR are throwbacks to those days and with them being huge Bret marks, it shows in their work, ah I need to watch the old Takeover shows again best era for Tag wrestling this century outside the early 2000’s gimmick match boom

I can't say I was a fan of the American Badass. From the long ponytail to the oversized leather jacket...it just didn't work for me. I think physically this was probably the worst shape he had been in since pretty much the start of his career. Big Evil though felt like a refinement of that incarnation. It's like he retained all the good stuff and got rid of the stuff that wasn't that great.

I think the reason for that was that Vince was booking Taker as a giant during the start of his career. Which back then meant that he had to be put against other giants or big guys. I'm sure he was green back then but he was also told to work a certain way. And boy oh boy some of those early WrestleMania matches he had with Snuka, Jake, Bundy, Giant freakin' Gonzalez were absolutely atrocious. It was probably by 96' when he was given the ball that his ring-work radically started to change and I think by 97-98 he had become a bankable top star who wasn't just a compelling character but also a very good wrestler who could be relied on in that main-event spot.

They absolutely are. And the biggest similarity between them and Bret for me is that everything they do in the ring makes sense. It happens for a reason. There is absolutely no wasted motion. And that there is a mark of a great wrestler. Where every move you do in the ring is a little block, eventually coming together to tell this larger story.

 

[Markhor]

Wrestling podcasts are very saturated but really enjoying Kliq This with Kevin Nash, hosted by the excellent Sean Oliver.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Those specials are really good though and the E’s weekly shows have been running forever, on the flip side it is amazing to still be going strong to this day, as much as it would be great for certain changes for us hardcore fans, their driving audience has always been the casuals for most of their history apart from the AE and RA eras probably

Yeah but that tells you that people are most interested in watching a show about the glory days of wrestling, rather than an actual modern day wrestling show.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah but that tells you that people are most interested in watching a show about the glory days of wrestling, rather than an actual modern day wrestling show.

The A&E network attracts a more diverse audience, their emo is documentaries and mini series. The people who may have watched that would have included those who don’t watch wrestling at all as well but know who Taker is. Plus documentaries and weekly wrestling shows are two different kettles of fish, wrestling is in a different time period now and the popularity can be judged in a variety of different ways which can make it subjective especially creatively or how we consume the product, but financially you could argue it’s in a good place with AEW getting the TNT deal and WWE continuing to thrive as a business more then they have in the past. But if am putting Taker over, I’d say he is bigger then wrestling so no surprises there.

 

[shaz619]

Wrestling podcasts are very saturated but really enjoying Kliq This with Kevin Nash, hosted by the excellent Sean Oliver.

Kevin Nash, does he have anything interesting to say, how many stories have you listened to so far about him tearing his quad