The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[Rajdeep]

Vince retires

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At 77, time for me to retire. <br>Thank you, WWE Universe. <br>Then. Now. Forever. Together. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/thankful?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#thankful</a></p>— Vince McMahon (@VinceMcMahon) <a href="https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1550572700959121408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 22, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Kevin Nash, does he have anything interesting to say, how many stories have you listened to so far about him tearing his quad

Tbh, Nash is fun to listen to. I have seen a bunch of his shoot interviews with the same guy. Ofcourse he is always finding ways to justify all the B.S he pulled over the years whether its the Curtain call, ending Goldberg's streak or putting himself at the top of the card after becoming head booker; but he's great at telling stories and much better suited to starting a podcast than the vast majority of ex-wrestlers/wrestling personalities that do so.

I mean Bruce Prichard's podcast is just abhorrent to listen to. Because all he does is defend WWE. You could be talking about anything from HHH's reign of terror or early 90s garbage Saturday morning cartoon WWF, you can be sure which side Bruce will be passionately defending.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Vince retires

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At 77, time for me to retire. <br>Thank you, WWE Universe. <br>Then. Now. Forever. Together. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/thankful?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#thankful</a></p>— Vince McMahon (@VinceMcMahon) <a href="https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1550572700959121408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 22, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Holy s**t. Almost hard to believe.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

So apparently some people are reporting that Brock walked out of SmackDown saying something along the lines of: "If he's gone, I'm gone."

 

[shaz619]

Tbh, Nash is fun to listen to. I have seen a bunch of his shoot interviews with the same guy. Ofcourse he is always finding ways to justify all the B.S he pulled over the years whether its the Curtain call, ending Goldberg's streak or putting himself at the top of the card after becoming head booker; but he's great at telling stories and much better suited to starting a podcast than the vast majority of ex-wrestlers/wrestling personalities that do so.

I mean Bruce Prichard's podcast is just abhorrent to listen to. Because all he does is defend WWE. You could be talking about anything from HHH's reign of terror or early 90s garbage Saturday morning cartoon WWF, you can be sure which side Bruce will be passionately defending.

what was his justification for giving Berg the tazer

 

[shaz619]

Oh my word, this is the biggest news in the wrestling world since 2007. Who could have called this, none of us could have remotely predicted Vince would willingly leave this way. I felt he was taking it all in from those appearances not knowing when it could be his last but it seems as though he already knew what he was going to do unless the investigation has concluded and advised accordingly but even then, it’s hard to see him walk away just like that lol

Whatever he is, this man gave us wrestling and it’s moving on that front. Wow, the company may never be quiet the same again, will be interesting to see where the E goes from here…

 

[daytrader]

Vince McMahon retiring as WWE chairman and CEO, signaling massive shift in pro wrestling

The most important person in the history of professional wrestling is handing over the reins.

Vince McMahon is retiring as World Wrestling Entertainment chairman and CEO, he announced Friday. In a WWE news release, the 76-year-old McMahon further announced that his daughter, Stephanie, and current WWE president Nick Khan will be taking over as co-CEOs. Stephanie McMahon, who has been acting as interim CEO, will also take over as chairwoman, per the McMahon statement.

McMahon had previously stepped down from his role as chairman and CEO in the wake of a Wall Street Journal report that revealed a WWE board investigation into a secret $3 million settlement given by McMahon to a former WWE paralegal. But at the time, McMahon still kept his role as the head of WWE creative, and sources told ESPN that McMahon's stepping down was done for optics.

EDITOR'S PICKS

Report: WWE's McMahon paid $12M to 4 women
14dMarc Raimondi
The Wall Street Journal followed up with another report about alleged McMahon improprieties on July 8. The newspaper reported that the board was investigating $12 million given to four former WWE employees or contractors to silence allegations about McMahon's sexual misconduct.

The $12 million included an alleged $7.5 million to a former woman WWE wrestler who said that McMahon coerced her into having oral sex, demoted her and then didn't renew her contract in 2005 after she resisted further sexual encounters with him.

McMahon's retirement represents a massive shift in the world of professional wrestling, where he has been a fixture since buying WWE from his father in the 1980s. McMahon built WWE into a billion-dollar brand with a worldwide reach, a promotion that stood tall over the decades against its competition.

"I am extremely confident in the continued success of WWE, and I leave our company in the capable hands of an extraordinary group of Superstars, employees, and executives -- in particular, both Chairwoman and Co-CEO Stephanie McMahon and Co-CEO Nick Khan," McMahon said in a statement released Friday to WWE investors. "As the majority shareholder, I will continue to support WWE in any way I can. My personal thanks to our community and business partners, shareholders, and Board of Directors for their guidance and support through the years."

It was also announced by WWE on Friday that McMahon's son-in-law and Stephanie's husband, Paul "Triple H" Levesque, was returning to the company as head of talent relations, though it was immediately unclear if that is related to McMahon retiring.

McMahon will leave a complicated legacy, one rife with scandals, including charges that he provided his wrestlers with steroids levied against him by the United States government in 1994. A jury found McMahon not guilty.

Late in the 1990s, McMahon, who also worked in front of the camera as a play-by-play announcer for years, became a key on-screen character during one of the hottest time periods for WWE. His evil boss character, Mr. McMahon, going up against blue-collar anti-hero "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, is one of the most memorable storylines in WWE history. The feud helped WWE overtake WCW, the rival promotion that WWE later purchased.

WWE became a publicly traded company in 1999. Its top two television shows, Raw and SmackDown, have been among the top-rated shows on cable since the 1990s.

ESPN

 

[Markhor]

Kevin Nash, does he have anything interesting to say, how many stories have you listened to so far about him tearing his quad

Yeah he has a dry sense of humour. You'll enjoy the first one on Scott Hall.

 

[Markhor]

Vince retires

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At 77, time for me to retire. <br>Thank you, WWE Universe. <br>Then. Now. Forever. Together. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/thankful?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#thankful</a></p>— Vince McMahon (@VinceMcMahon) <a href="https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1550572700959121408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 22, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

It's like when one of those Arab or African dictators finally step down. Wow.

 

[Markhor]

Oh my word, this is the biggest news in the wrestling world since 2007. Who could have called this, none of us could have remotely predicted Vince would willingly leave this way. I felt he was taking it all in from those appearances not knowing when it could be his last but it seems as though he already knew what he was going to do unless the investigation has concluded and advised accordingly but even then, it’s hard to see him walk away just like that lol

Whatever he is, this man gave us wrestling and it’s moving on that front. Wow, the company may never be quiet the same again, will be interesting to see where the E goes from here…

My view was Vince retires only when his grave is dug (and even then he'd run the board meetings from hell). It's again a surprising tipping point having withstood many worse scandals from allegedly raping Rita Chatterton, covering up for Snuka, the ringboy scandal, Benoit's murder-suicide, and the premature deaths of many talent who worked in an environment where scant regard was paid to their welfare with insane schedules and nonexistent employment protections. Perhaps all the battles finally wore him down.

Vince McMahon is one of the most complex personalities walking the earth. He grew up in a trailer in North Carolina, and was sexually abused by his stepdad. His eccentricities are legendary - hating sleep, sneezing and most normal human comforts ! He doesn't watch TV or films, having an almost religious devotion to work.

The inhuman schedule, the 3am workouts and office meetings I feel stem from a childhood inferiority complex, a burning desire to prove himself to his dad he never knew until he was a teenager.

He's insanely stubborn and impulsive, yet capable of enormous compassion and generosity to those loyal to him. He has a massive ego yet banned anyone from even thanking him during HOF speeches. His wrestling company made him millions, yet had a bone-headed insistence on creating non-wrestling promotions (WBF, ICOPRO, XFL, Films) that repeatedly failed.

Regardless of your views, he'll go down as wrestling's greatest and most influential promoter - transforming a regional, smoke-filled TV studio cult attraction to a mainstream international pop culture product. Not Watts, not Gagne, not Crockett or anyone else could've done it. He wasn't afraid of humiliating himself for the audience, and became one of the greatest ever heels.

He probably overstayed his welcome by about 10-15 years. His ideas became stale and outdated, his creative decision-making whimsical and short-termist. He leaned too heavily on juvenile humour and bad comedy. It's why I haven't watched since 2009. He micromanages to a ridiculous degree (god forbid you describe the title as a belt on air). Time was ripe for change, but a heartfelt thanks for everything.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Kevin Nash, does he have anything interesting to say, how many stories have you listened to so far about him tearing his quad

Think Nash has been the biggest over achiever in the world of pro wrestling apart from Hogan.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have not see A and E but the Last Ride series was eye opening, especially the constant pain he was in, delaying surgery, taking those injections before matches and really struggling to do those matches once a year. I think it’s moronic for some idiots to say anyone could have played the Taker gimmick, a load of ********, and thing is he changed things up along the way and at one point restrained his ring work during the 90’s to get his persona over. Which Taker was your favourite incarnation ?

I liked the Ministry of Darkness lol

Ministry of Darkness Taker was legitimately scary. It could have been one of the greatest factions had they not made it the Corporate Ministry.

I think every Taker's gimmick was played brilliantly. Although not a fan of American Badass/Big Evil gimmick, but Taker showed some good mic skills in that gimmick which his critics think he never possessed.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's like when one of those Arab or African dictators finally step down. Wow.

For the better part of last 40 years, Vince McMahon was the pro wrestling industry.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

So apparently some people are reporting that Brock walked out of SmackDown saying something along the lines of: "If he's gone, I'm gone."

That turned out to be a work I think.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

With Trips and Steph at the helm, I think the talent will be much happier.
Nick Khan would probably take the charge of profits and expansion and stuff.

Atleast Trips has a track record of providing some great pro wrestling feuds/matches. I am looking forward to it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I think this is the biggest moment in the history of pro wrestling now. It's much bigger than any of the previous news that have been called as "history changer" and stuff.

I am looking forward to the new era with Trips and Steph at the helm.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

https://twitter.com/TonyKhan/status/1550578379543437314?s=20&t=6LbmJEHacz-L9IBCmn-Xyg

lol Tony is such a self obsessed mark. Like he makes himself so hard to like with his antics.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

what was his justification for giving Berg the tazer

The current one is I wasn't booker and we were trying to get the belt on Hogan. In the past he has said everything from "I was over" to: you should never saddle a guy with a winning streak.

He can blabber on all he wants. Everyone knows he politicked his way to ending the streak.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I think this is the biggest moment in the history of pro wrestling now. It's much bigger than any of the previous news that have been called as "history changer" and stuff.

I am looking forward to the new era with Trips and Steph at the helm.

Hard to know what to expect. I don't know if Stephanie has a vision of wrestling. I know she has been on the creative team numerous times but as far as HHH is concerned, he very much does have a vision of wrestling. And honestly if he can somehow be the mouse from Ratatouille while his wife is the chef than that would be great. The fact that Nick Khan is co-CEO though tells me that its still quite likely that they sell the company down the line.

One thing is for sure though, Vince screwed Vince. #ThisOnesForBret

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That turned out to be a work I think.

No apparently that did happen for real. They even had to rewrite the script hours before they went live. But then they convinced him to come back, I'm guessing by offering him more money.

 

[shaz619]

My view was Vince retires only when his grave is dug (and even then he'd run the board meetings from hell). It's again a surprising tipping point having withstood many worse scandals from allegedly raping Rita Chatterton, covering up for Snuka, the ringboy scandal, Benoit's murder-suicide, and the premature deaths of many talent who worked in an environment where scant regard was paid to their welfare with insane schedules and nonexistent employment protections. Perhaps all the battles finally wore him down.

Vince McMahon is one of the most complex personalities walking the earth. He grew up in a trailer in North Carolina, and was sexually abused by his stepdad. His eccentricities are legendary - hating sleep, sneezing and most normal human comforts ! He doesn't watch TV or films, having an almost religious devotion to work.

The inhuman schedule, the 3am workouts and office meetings I feel stem from a childhood inferiority complex, a burning desire to prove himself to his dad he never knew until he was a teenager.

He's insanely stubborn and impulsive, yet capable of enormous compassion and generosity to those loyal to him. He has a massive ego yet banned anyone from even thanking him during HOF speeches. His wrestling company made him millions, yet had a bone-headed insistence on creating non-wrestling promotions (WBF, ICOPRO, XFL, Films) that repeatedly failed.

Regardless of your views, he'll go down as wrestling's greatest and most influential promoter - transforming a regional, smoke-filled TV studio cult attraction to a mainstream international pop culture product. Not Watts, not Gagne, not Crockett or anyone else could've done it. He wasn't afraid of humiliating himself for the audience, and became one of the greatest ever heels.

He probably overstayed his welcome by about 10-15 years. His ideas became stale and outdated, his creative decision-making whimsical and short-termist. He leaned too heavily on juvenile humour and bad comedy. It's why I haven't watched since 2009. He micromanages to a ridiculous degree (god forbid you describe the title as a belt on air). Time was ripe for change, but a heartfelt thanks for everything.

Brilliant POTW [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

Couldn’t have articulated Vince any better Markhor and it’s not an easy task

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I think this is the biggest moment in the history of pro wrestling now. It's much bigger than any of the previous news that have been called as "history changer" and stuff.

I am looking forward to the new era with Trips and Steph at the helm.

I agree. And while Trips was over with us and the smark audience, as much as the niche group whinge about the E their main audience is a different ball game, it’s probably why Hunter wont find himself at the helm at this time and we have two co-CEO’s. But it will be interesting to see how things evolve, the team has vast experience but at the end of the day, for all his flaws there is only one Vince

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You know say what you will about Vince. And I've said plenty. During the last few years of his career in particular I felt he had gone completely senile. But fact is, he is the greatest promoter in the history of the wrestling business. And I don't see anyone ever reaching the heights he reached. He very much did change the game (whether you like it or not), first in the 1980s by killing the territories and launching the WWF. And then during the 1990s when wrestling reached peak popularity. And he was a major reason why that happened. Not to paint him as the underdog or anything (because he was the furthest thing from that) but he had many doubters and hurdles throughout his career. First it was people telling him that WrestleMania would never work or take-off. Then you had WCW kicking their a** for 80+. Through it all though he found a way to come out on top

And then ofcourse there was the Vince McMahon character without whom the Attitude Era would not exist. I mean he is literally one of the most recognizable TV villains and that's not something most people in the wrestling business do, which is cross over to the mainstream. Vince did that as a talent.

I don't think you can even talk about wrestling in the past 40 years...pretty much since it entered the mainstream, without talking about Vince McMahon. His contribution to the wrestling business is simply insurmountable in my book.

Ultimately though he was just at the wrong place, in the wrong era. I mean he has done far, far worse things that he should be in prison for imo. 25 years ago people would have laughed this stuff off and it would have played out in a storyline. In this day and age, this kind of stuff is simply not acceptable because the WWE of today is a publicly traded company with shareholders whose bottom lines are affected by the bad press that comes with a scandal like this.

 

[James]

Vince retires

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At 77, time for me to retire. <br>Thank you, WWE Universe. <br>Then. Now. Forever. Together. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/thankful?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#thankful</a></p>— Vince McMahon (@VinceMcMahon) <a href="https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1550572700959121408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 22, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

End of an Era!

 

[shaz619]

https://twitter.com/TonyKhan/status/1550578379543437314?s=20&t=6LbmJEHacz-L9IBCmn-Xyg

lol Tony is such a self obsessed mark. Like he makes himself so hard to like with his antics.

He’s child like and the pettiness is on another level, he is more Indian then Pakistani and the guy is simply just pandering to the rabid group of autistic fans who worship his holiness. Such antics are more of a detriment and screams lack of professionalism and competence, but we expect too much from this self obsessed mark given the nature of how entitled his life has been

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My view was Vince retires only when his grave is dug (and even then he'd run the board meetings from hell). It's again a surprising tipping point having withstood many worse scandals from allegedly raping Rita Chatterton, covering up for Snuka, the ringboy scandal, Benoit's murder-suicide, and the premature deaths of many talent who worked in an environment where scant regard was paid to their welfare with insane schedules and nonexistent employment protections. Perhaps all the battles finally wore him down.

Vince McMahon is one of the most complex personalities walking the earth. He grew up in a trailer in North Carolina, and was sexually abused by his stepdad. His eccentricities are legendary - hating sleep, sneezing and most normal human comforts ! He doesn't watch TV or films, having an almost religious devotion to work.

The inhuman schedule, the 3am workouts and office meetings I feel stem from a childhood inferiority complex, a burning desire to prove himself to his dad he never knew until he was a teenager.

He's insanely stubborn and impulsive, yet capable of enormous compassion and generosity to those loyal to him. He has a massive ego yet banned anyone from even thanking him during HOF speeches. His wrestling company made him millions, yet had a bone-headed insistence on creating non-wrestling promotions (WBF, ICOPRO, XFL, Films) that repeatedly failed.

Regardless of your views, he'll go down as wrestling's greatest and most influential promoter - transforming a regional, smoke-filled TV studio cult attraction to a mainstream international pop culture product. Not Watts, not Gagne, not Crockett or anyone else could've done it. He wasn't afraid of humiliating himself for the audience, and became one of the greatest ever heels.

He probably overstayed his welcome by about 10-15 years. His ideas became stale and outdated, his creative decision-making whimsical and short-termist. He leaned too heavily on juvenile humour and bad comedy. It's why I haven't watched since 2009. He micromanages to a ridiculous degree (god forbid you describe the title as a belt on air). Time was ripe for change, but a heartfelt thanks for everything.

Awesome post. Now I feel like a complete tool for writing the post I wrote because of how much better and well-articulated yours is.

 

[shaz619]

You know say what you will about Vince. And I've said plenty. During the last few years of his career in particular I felt he had gone completely senile. But fact is, he is the greatest promoter in the history of the wrestling business. And I don't see anyone ever reaching the heights he reached. He very much did change the game (whether you like it or not), first in the 1980s by killing the territories and launching the WWF. And then during the 1990s when wrestling reached peak popularity. And he was a major reason why that happened. Not to paint him as the underdog or anything (because he was the furthest thing from that) but he had many doubters and hurdles throughout his career. First it was people telling him that WrestleMania would never work or take-off. Then you had WCW kicking their a** for 80+. Through it all though he found a way to come out on top

And then ofcourse there was the Vince McMahon character without whom the Attitude Era would not exist. I mean he is literally one of the most recognizable TV villains and that's not something most people in the wrestling business do, which is cross over to the mainstream. Vince did that as a talent.

I don't think you can even talk about wrestling in the past 40 years...pretty much since it entered the mainstream, without talking about Vince McMahon. His contribution to the wrestling business is simply insurmountable in my book.

Ultimately though he was just at the wrong place, in the wrong era. I mean he has done far, far worse things that he should be in prison for imo. 25 years ago people would have laughed this stuff off and it would have played out in a storyline. In this day and age, this kind of stuff is simply not acceptable because the WWE of today is a publicly traded company with shareholders whose bottom lines are affected by the bad press that comes with a scandal like this.

That versatility is a good shout again, he has done every role there could be in wrestling and he will never ask a talent to do something he wasn’t willing to do himself, am sure there’s a clip of that NFL player expressing doubt on taking a bump from an elevated platform, Vince would take it to show him it’s fine at like 70 something that’s a unique talent and one of the positives to take for aspiring business folk, know your product inside and out

 

[shaz619]

Awesome post. Now I feel like a complete tool for writing the post I wrote because of how much better and well-articulated yours is.

Markhor is a part timer but has always been a big fan going by our old exchanges in the ancient thread which has been archived. You posted well bro I would nominate yours to for POTW and many other gems [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

You guys have taken the torch in the wrestling thread, am glad to take the pin-fall after all these years

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Markhor is a part timer but has always been a big fan going by our old exchanges in the ancient thread which has been archived. You posted well bro I would nominate yours to for POTW and many other gems [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

You guys have taken the torch in the wrestling thread, am glad to take the pin-fall after all these years

Nah bro. I can't allow you to do that. [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] 's post is simply better in every single way. Not everyday you get a moment this massive. And he managed to sum it up so perfectly and concisely, while capturing the complexity of the man; all in one fell swoop.

POTW and POTM if such an award existed.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That versatility is a good shout again, he has done every role there could be in wrestling and he will never ask a talent to do something he wasn’t willing to do himself, am sure there’s a clip of that NFL player expressing doubt on taking a bump from an elevated platform, Vince would take it to show him it’s fine at like 70 something that’s a unique talent and one of the positives to take for aspiring business folk, know your product inside and out

Hahah yeah I remember seeing that. It was the pandemic Mania I think. Also, since we are on the topic of Crazy Vince McMahon stories, I think this is as good a time as any to share this viral thread from years back called (you guessed it): Crazy Vince McMahon Stories.

https://twitter.com/allan_cheapshot/status/1125313121818640384?lang=en

Would appreciate if someone could embed, so it can get the proper attention it deserves. Sadly I don't know how to embed.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My view was Vince retires only when his grave is dug (and even then he'd run the board meetings from hell). It's again a surprising tipping point having withstood many worse scandals from allegedly raping Rita Chatterton, covering up for Snuka, the ringboy scandal, Benoit's murder-suicide, and the premature deaths of many talent who worked in an environment where scant regard was paid to their welfare with insane schedules and nonexistent employment protections. Perhaps all the battles finally wore him down.

Vince McMahon is one of the most complex personalities walking the earth. He grew up in a trailer in North Carolina, and was sexually abused by his stepdad. His eccentricities are legendary - hating sleep, sneezing and most normal human comforts ! He doesn't watch TV or films, having an almost religious devotion to work.

The inhuman schedule, the 3am workouts and office meetings I feel stem from a childhood inferiority complex, a burning desire to prove himself to his dad he never knew until he was a teenager.

He's insanely stubborn and impulsive, yet capable of enormous compassion and generosity to those loyal to him. He has a massive ego yet banned anyone from even thanking him during HOF speeches. His wrestling company made him millions, yet had a bone-headed insistence on creating non-wrestling promotions (WBF, ICOPRO, XFL, Films) that repeatedly failed.

Regardless of your views, he'll go down as wrestling's greatest and most influential promoter - transforming a regional, smoke-filled TV studio cult attraction to a mainstream international pop culture product. Not Watts, not Gagne, not Crockett or anyone else could've done it. He wasn't afraid of humiliating himself for the audience, and became one of the greatest ever heels.

He probably overstayed his welcome by about 10-15 years. His ideas became stale and outdated, his creative decision-making whimsical and short-termist. He leaned too heavily on juvenile humour and bad comedy. It's why I haven't watched since 2009. He micromanages to a ridiculous degree (god forbid you describe the title as a belt on air). Time was ripe for change, but a heartfelt thanks for everything.

[MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] POTW material here

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Hard to know what to expect. I don't know if Stephanie has a vision of wrestling. I know she has been on the creative team numerous times but as far as HHH is concerned, he very much does have a vision of wrestling. And honestly if he can somehow be the mouse from Ratatouille while his wife is the chef than that would be great. The fact that Nick Khan is co-CEO though tells me that its still quite likely that they sell the company down the line.

One thing is for sure though, Vince screwed Vince. #ThisOnesForBret

I don't think Steph would object to Trips running the creative part of the business. As he is the one with experience running a brand on his own. Nick Khan is a proven businessman who can take care of the revenue part of the company. But it might well be a big task running a global conglomerate. Vince was a gigantic part with a track record of running the most successful wrestling company in the world. I expect WWE stock prices to fall for atleast some time.

I think there's a good chance Dwayne might end up buying it. He even bought XFL and merge it with NFL.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

No apparently that did happen for real. They even had to rewrite the script hours before they went live. But then they convinced him to come back, I'm guessing by offering him more money.

They didn't have a choice I guess with Summerslam being so close if Brock did walk out. I know there was a clause in Brock's contract that he should be told about storylines and conclusions etc ahead of everyone else.

One thing for sure is Brock is still the biggest name WWE has to offer and he does feel like a box office special attraction something Roman doesn't yet.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I agree. And while Trips was over with us and the smark audience, as much as the niche group whinge about the E their main audience is a different ball game, it’s probably why Hunter wont find himself at the helm at this time and we have two co-CEO’s. But it will be interesting to see how things evolve, the team has vast experience but at the end of the day, for all his flaws there is only one Vince

Definitely. But then there's only two guys there who have actually run the creative side of the business before. Trips and Prichard. Prichard might have Nick's support but Steph might veto it.

I am curious as to whether there will be any changes to the proposed Mania main event next year that Uncle Dave was reporting to be a done deal with Roman vs The Rock.

One thing that is actually funny is Shane didn't get any scrap of WWE considering according to some he would have gotten a lion's share.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He’s child like and the pettiness is on another level, he is more Indian then Pakistani and the guy is simply just pandering to the rabid group of autistic fans who worship his holiness. Such antics are more of a detriment and screams lack of professionalism and competence, but we expect too much from this self obsessed mark given the nature of how entitled his life has been

I don't think if Indian or Pakistani have anything to do with it. He is simply a spoiled brat with little regard for anyone. The brainless extremist fans worship him for "saving the business" when all he did was scavenge the NA talent from NJPW. I don't think either he or his dad consider Pakistan to be anything connected to them. Plus the guy definitely looks like he is on drugs during every time he appears in public with his dishevelled look and cockiness.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That versatility is a good shout again, he has done every role there could be in wrestling and he will never ask a talent to do something he wasn’t willing to do himself, am sure there’s a clip of that NFL player expressing doubt on taking a bump from an elevated platform, Vince would take it to show him it’s fine at like 70 something that’s a unique talent and one of the positives to take for aspiring business folk, know your product inside and out

It was the Gronk I think. He's pretty big in USA.

If he hadn't monetized the NA wrestling industry, we might have never been able to get wrestling every week on TV. So that's a plus. But then again it also hindered the talent and promoters to use their talent in other promotions with a wider talent base.

I still think Attitude Era was the best phase in pro wrestling history. I am glad I got to watch Raw and SD consistently during that time. People might say AE is overrated and hasn't aged well etc etc, but I think nothing has come close to capturing the essence and madness of that period better. Those who watched it during that time know how unpredictable the storylines used to be and fans didn't really know what to expect. Even the glass shattering, If you smell, Dead Man Walking, Time to play the game, Kurts olympic intro was enough to drive the crowd insane.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It was the Gronk I think. He's pretty big in USA.

If he hadn't monetized the NA wrestling industry, we might have never been able to get wrestling every week on TV. So that's a plus. But then again it also hindered the talent and promoters to use their talent in other promotions with a wider talent base.

I still think Attitude Era was the best phase in pro wrestling history. I am glad I got to watch Raw and SD consistently during that time. People might say AE is overrated and hasn't aged well etc etc, but I think nothing has come close to capturing the essence and madness of that period better. Those who watched it during that time know how unpredictable the storylines used to be and fans didn't really know what to expect. Even the glass shattering, If you smell, Dead Man Walking, Time to play the game, Kurts olympic intro was enough to drive the crowd insane.

AE was less about workrate or quality matches as it was about the stuff you mentioned. Its true that some of the stuff did not age well and perhaps seems juvenile when you look at it now with today's modern lens, but the popularity and fanfare around wrestling during that time was simply unreal. And has never been recreated to that level since. I don't think it ever will.

I mean you watch and episode of RAW or Nitro from that era and man oh man the crowds were so hot, guys were over up and down the card...it just looked like such a fun thing that you wanted to be a part of. And this was as true for WCW as it was for WWE, until WCW just fell off a cliff.

And then once that underappreciated WCW talent reached WWE than the quality of wrestling in WWE went through the roof too. 2000-2001 WWF has some of the ATG WWE matches and feuds. That for me was the absolute peak that any wrestling company has ever reached. In terms of popularity, fanfare, quality of storylines and quality of matches.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't think Steph would object to Trips running the creative part of the business. As he is the one with experience running a brand on his own. Nick Khan is a proven businessman who can take care of the revenue part of the company. But it might well be a big task running a global conglomerate. Vince was a gigantic part with a track record of running the most successful wrestling company in the world. I expect WWE stock prices to fall for atleast some time.

I think there's a good chance Dwayne might end up buying it. He even bought XFL and merge it with NFL.

I dunno if Rock has that kind of money. Unlike the XFL WWE is a massive brand with alot of brand value and global recognition. And thing is, WWE has reportedly had many offers. The biggest allegedly being 4 billion. And they didn't go for that. So I'm guessing they are looking for something really big.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

After reading some stuff on the internet, hearing certain people's takes on this and drawing my own conclusions, this is what I believe:

- There is probably going to be a power struggle among Nick Khan and Steph/HHH
- No way Vince is out completely considering he owns over 80% of the shares. He will likely retain some kind of influence...likely through Steph.
- Nick Khan is probably going to look at the business side but no way he can handle creative. So question is can Hunter politick his way into that position?
- The 'rigidity' might go away. I guess people's heads won't get taken off if they say belts instead of titles, fans instead of the WWE Universe or wrestling instead of sports entertainment.
- Michael Cole might actually become bearable to listen now that he won't have Vince shouting in his ear.
- If HHH gets hold of creative than that's the best we can hope for because we have seen his vision of wrestling from NXT. He has shown that he does not have an issue with picking up guys from the indies, letting them be themselves, nor does he have a specific definition of what a top guy should be. He also does not have an issue with pushing smaller guys to the top.
- Ultimately, this idea that you have to look a certain way to get over in WWE or that the fans just want guys that look like Cena or Lesnar is B.S and something that happened because that's what Vince wanted.
- At the end of the day if something is good, fans will gravitate towards it. Like they always have.
- Never been the biggest fan of ol' Hunter, but I gotta say this is one situation where I am actually rooting for him to politick his way to the top. Because I think its about time someone with a fresh vision got control of creative. And HHH is really the only one best equipped to take charge of that ship.

 

[shaz619]

After reading some stuff on the internet, hearing certain people's takes on this and drawing my own conclusions, this is what I believe:

- There is probably going to be a power struggle among Nick Khan and Steph/HHH
- No way Vince is out completely considering he owns over 80% of the shares. He will likely retain some kind of influence...likely through Steph.
- Nick Khan is probably going to look at the business side but no way he can handle creative. So question is can Hunter politick his way into that position?
- The 'rigidity' might go away. I guess people's heads won't get taken off if they say belts instead of titles, fans instead of the WWE Universe or wrestling instead of sports entertainment.
- Michael Cole might actually become bearable to listen now that he won't have Vince shouting in his ear.
- If HHH gets hold of creative than that's the best we can hope for because we have seen his vision of wrestling from NXT. He has shown that he does not have an issue with picking up guys from the indies, letting them be themselves, nor does he have a specific definition of what a top guy should be. He also does not have an issue with pushing smaller guys to the top.
- Ultimately, this idea that you have to look a certain way to get over in WWE or that the fans just want guys that look like Cena or Lesnar is B.S and something that happened because that's what Vince wanted.
- At the end of the day if something is good, fans will gravitate towards it. Like they always have.
- Never been the biggest fan of ol' Hunter, but I gotta say this is one situation where I am actually rooting for him to politick his way to the top. Because I think its about time someone with a fresh vision got control of creative. And HHH is really the only one best equipped to take charge of that ship.

Hunter has been pretty vocal about the main roster being a different product and catering to a broader audience, I don’t know if he’d run things like he did in NXT entirely, but I’d be curious to see how that would impact their audience and finances in general, there is an argument to be made that the company and their branding at this point is the major driver in itself. But with him getting his old job back, I wonder if he will be given any creative duties

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

SD! this week was ofc garbage, as it has been for months and months. But right off the bat there were little things that felt different. For one thing, Michael Cole sounded very different. He was much more laid-back and wasn't rattling off trademark terms or meaningless stats. He actually called the fans the fans. And then when Brock came back later in the night both him and MacAfee acknowledged that there had been certain rumors going around about Brock. And they did it without being completely obvious. You even had The New Day talking about the ROH and IWGP tag team championships.

At the end of the day, they are all little things. But I did notice them and I am sure others did too. And from what I've heard it was HHH who was running SD! in Vince's absence.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hunter has been pretty vocal about the main roster being a different product and catering to a broader audience, I don’t know if he’d run things like he did in NXT entirely, but I’d be curious to see how that would impact their audience and finances in general, there is an argument to be made that the company and their branding at this point is the major driver in itself. But with him getting his old job back, I wonder if he will be given any creative duties

Well you know a wise man once said shaz, if you want something you've got to take it, goddammit. Reach out and grab that brass ring!!

 

[BunnyRabbit]

AE was less about workrate or quality matches as it was about the stuff you mentioned. Its true that some of the stuff did not age well and perhaps seems juvenile when you look at it now with today's modern lens, but the popularity and fanfare around wrestling during that time was simply unreal. And has never been recreated to that level since. I don't think it ever will.

I mean you watch and episode of RAW or Nitro from that era and man oh man the crowds were so hot, guys were over up and down the card...it just looked like such a fun thing that you wanted to be a part of. And this was as true for WCW as it was for WWE, until WCW just fell off a cliff.

And then once that underappreciated WCW talent reached WWE than the quality of wrestling in WWE went through the roof too. 2000-2001 WWF has some of the ATG WWE matches and feuds. That for me was the absolute peak that any wrestling company has ever reached. In terms of popularity, fanfare, quality of storylines and quality of matches.

The crowd reactions in that era on weekly Raw and SD were far bigger than most PPV crowds'.

I recently saw a clip of Rock,Vince,Austin vs Ministry of Darkness and the way the crowd was reacting was insane.

Plus there were many wrestling clinics that didn't get enough recognition in that era mainly because of the louder reactions and crowd investment the other angles and feuds would cause.

Like Kurt vs Austin, Benoit/Jericho vs Trips/Austin, Kurt vs Rock vs Taker, Taker vs HBK 1, Benoit vs Y2J etc etc

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I dunno if Rock has that kind of money. Unlike the XFL WWE is a massive brand with alot of brand value and global recognition. And thing is, WWE has reportedly had many offers. The biggest allegedly being 4 billion. And they didn't go for that. So I'm guessing they are looking for something really big.

He's a smart businessman. Can work together with bigger execs from Disney, WB etc to strike a deal. Danny Garcia is his business advisor and that woman is extremely good with making business moves.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

After reading some stuff on the internet, hearing certain people's takes on this and drawing my own conclusions, this is what I believe:

- There is probably going to be a power struggle among Nick Khan and Steph/HHH
- No way Vince is out completely considering he owns over 80% of the shares. He will likely retain some kind of influence...likely through Steph.
- Nick Khan is probably going to look at the business side but no way he can handle creative. So question is can Hunter politick his way into that position?
- The 'rigidity' might go away. I guess people's heads won't get taken off if they say belts instead of titles, fans instead of the WWE Universe or wrestling instead of sports entertainment.
- Michael Cole might actually become bearable to listen now that he won't have Vince shouting in his ear.
- If HHH gets hold of creative than that's the best we can hope for because we have seen his vision of wrestling from NXT. He has shown that he does not have an issue with picking up guys from the indies, letting them be themselves, nor does he have a specific definition of what a top guy should be. He also does not have an issue with pushing smaller guys to the top.
- Ultimately, this idea that you have to look a certain way to get over in WWE or that the fans just want guys that look like Cena or Lesnar is B.S and something that happened because that's what Vince wanted.
- At the end of the day if something is good, fans will gravitate towards it. Like they always have.
- Never been the biggest fan of ol' Hunter, but I gotta say this is one situation where I am actually rooting for him to politick his way to the top. Because I think its about time someone with a fresh vision got control of creative. And HHH is really the only one best equipped to take charge of that ship.

It's going to be strange times but I would definitely want to see black and gold vibes on the main roster.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hunter has been pretty vocal about the main roster being a different product and catering to a broader audience, I don’t know if he’d run things like he did in NXT entirely, but I’d be curious to see how that would impact their audience and finances in general, there is an argument to be made that the company and their branding at this point is the major driver in itself. But with him getting his old job back, I wonder if he will be given any creative duties

Yeah but different doesn't necessarily have to mean a corporate and completely sanitized product where everything feels telegraphed and scripted. Ultimately, I think HHH is a very smart guy when it comes to wrestling. As it has been said ad nauseam, he is a student of the game who grew up watching NWA, AWA, World Class and other territories so he understands what logical and believable storytelling/booking looks like. On top of that he someone who very much has a pulse on the modern aspect of the business too. Just look at all the guys he has brought in to NXT or pushed from there all the way to the main roster. Guys like Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens credit him massively for where they are today. And I'm fairly certain he has been seeing AEW too and watching the stuff that has been incredible and that the fans have responded to like the Punk-MJF or MJF-Wardlow, Blackpool Combat Club (before they got involved with Jericho) etc. etc.

 

[shaz619]

Watched the ROH show, first time in a while where I checked out more then a few matches on a PPV:

Claudio’s world title match - Great match, excellent technical pedigree depicted by both, I couldn’t help but notice how short his opponent was, anyhow the match had great flow and the finish was straightforward, they didn’t overstay their welcome and Claudio was largely dominant which I liked. Enjoyed this.

Yuta v Garcia - Not the best match I’ve seen under pure rules, it took them 10 minutes to wake me up. The last 5 minutes of the match were great but they started out as though they are going to work for 2 hours, no flow, little action, too many dead spots, in contrast they could learn a great deal from the opener and Joe/Lethal. 15 minutes is a long time, you need to keep the audience engaged and keep the action going, they went all Zack Sabre Jnr on us for the first 10 minutes though, I was very close to skipping a good few times until things picked up.

Joe/Lethal - This is professional wrestling man, took me back to that kid who’d turn on the wrestling channel on Sky to watch the likes of Bryan, Joe, Daniels and co etc this match honestly, suspended my disbelief, the other match which managed it this year was Austin/KO. These two vets did the ROH history justice; loved the intensity from the word go, the match flowed nicely, very little stupid sh!t and the near falls were great.

FTR/Briscoe’s - Best match of the night, enjoyable/fun tag team action, it’s a rarity these days but what we come to expect from FTR who I absolutely prefer as heels but they worked well as faces to and recognised that role in the match which I liked, they make small adjustments which work really well, the smart arsse heel tactics they tend to utilise were minimised and they played of the crowd to build some nice heat on their opponents. Briscoe’s don’t really do anything special which is a big skill in present day landscape, largely kept their work simple and played of their strong character work which is their biggest asset, I don’t think their high spots were necessary nor did I agree with the hand shaking post match given their current gimmick. I’ve seen better 2 out of 3 falls matches involving FTR but this was still a lot of fun and a good way to close the show

A side note, I strongly dislike how overused the Piledriver is. It’s sad to see this move become just another near fall. The commentary on the show didn’t get my juices flowing but wasn’t awful, Mauro Ranallo would have been great in this situation but Regald did really well to try and salvage the pure title match and added great value in the booth, “turning the head minimised the impact” great line

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Another thing about HHH that's different for Vince is that he is not set on his ways and actually listens to people. Back when he was a wrestler I am sure he had the same views on smaller guys that Vince does. Heck, we have all heard from multiple people what he thought of CM Punk. But I do think over the years his thinking has matured and he has recognized the business has changed. And one guy he really trusted and listened to was William Regal, who was probably responsible for bringing 95% of the top-level talent to NXT.

Kinda off-topic but I guess you could say Shawn Michaels has a pulse on the modern aspect of the business too lol. I dunno if you guys heard but Kevin Nash mentioned on his new podcast that he went to NXT to visit Shawn and asked him why he wasn't telling his guys to slow down. To which apparently Shawn responded something along the lines of: 'you don't get it man, it not like our days...all the fans want to see now is highspots'

For some reason just the thought of Shawn saying that in that way makes me laugh so hard. No particular reason, and I'm not even taking a shot at him or anything. But just the thought of Shawn sitting down to watch PWG or some highspot match and make sense of it so he can teach his student, makes me laugh to no end.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah but different doesn't necessarily have to mean a corporate and completely sanitized product where everything feels telegraphed and scripted. Ultimately, I think HHH is a very smart guy when it comes to wrestling. As it has been said ad nauseam, he is a student of the game who grew up watching NWA, AWA, World Class and other territories so he understands what logical and believable storytelling/booking looks like. On top of that he someone who very much has a pulse on the modern aspect of the business too. Just look at all the guys he has brought in to NXT or pushed from there all the way to the main roster. Guys like Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens credit him massively for where they are today. And I'm fairly certain he has been seeing AEW too and watching the stuff that has been incredible and that the fans have responded to like the Punk-MJF or MJF-Wardlow, Blackpool Combat Club (before they got involved with Jericho) etc. etc.

I didn’t say that is what different means but in his own words he implied he wouldn’t exactly book to cater entirely to one group of people, that would be financial suicide isolating the casual fans who bring in the money. Unless Hunter is stupid enough to do that I don’t know, he was a 4/10 wrestler so I wouldn’t put it beyond him. Seth and KO have more to thank Ryan Ward and Dusty Rhodes. You think Hunter would or should book the WWE like AEW? AEW is a different product and hardly the perfect wrestling show in the world today plus they are vastly inferior to what NXT was as a whole consistent wrestling show creatively anyway, AEW are still finding their feet. The whole NXT thing though was a big project to massage Hunter’s ego opening the PPV’s pretending he is Heyman in the 90’s gave it away, smarks hated his guts in his prime and he just needed that boost from them he never got in his prime. He’s a good booker but I can’t stand the eulogies really, could Hunter the personality be trusted to run such a global powerhouse? there’s a good reason Steph and Nick Khan have been named co-CEO’s

 

[shaz619]

Another thing about HHH that's different for Vince is that he is not set on his ways and actually listens to people. Back when he was a wrestler I am sure he had the same views on smaller guys that Vince does. Heck, we have all heard from multiple people what he thought of CM Punk. But I do think over the years his thinking has matured and he has recognized the business has changed. And one guy he really trusted and listened to was William Regal, who was probably responsible for bringing 95% of the top-level talent to NXT.

Kinda off-topic but I guess you could say Shawn Michaels has a pulse on the modern aspect of the business too lol. I dunno if you guys heard but Kevin Nash mentioned on his new podcast that he went to NXT to visit Shawn and asked him why he wasn't telling his guys to slow down. To which apparently Shawn responded something along the lines of: 'you don't get it man, it not like our days...all the fans want to see now is highspots'

For some reason just the thought of Shawn saying that in that way makes me laugh so hard. No particular reason, and I'm not even taking a shot at him or anything. But just the thought of Shawn sitting down to watch PWG or some highspot match and make sense of it so he can teach his student, makes me laugh to no end.

Hunter is fantastic as long as you kiss his behind but if you stand up to him, that’s it, done! would he ever bring Punk back? I’d retire from this thread that day, this bloke sent him his notice on his wedding day. The talent Hunter gets along with now are mostly those who were mark’s that grew up watching him, if these guys had a difference of opinion with hun, do you seriously think it all would get rosy after that and Hunter would be the bigger person. He is a shrewd business person and an even more shrewd personality, the McMahons would want to keep him in check

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I didn’t say that is what different means but in his own words he implied he wouldn’t exactly book to cater entirely to one group of people, that would be financial suicide isolating the casual fans who bring in the money. Unless Hunter is stupid enough to do that I don’t know, he was a 4/10 wrestler so I wouldn’t put it beyond him. Seth and KO have more to thank Ryan Ward and Dusty Rhodes. You think Hunter would or should book the WWE like AEW? AEW is a different product and hardly the perfect wrestling show in the world today plus they are vastly inferior to what NXT was as a whole consistent wrestling show creatively anyway, AEW are still finding their feet. The whole NXT thing though was a big project to massage Hunter’s ego opening the PPV’s pretending he is Heyman in the 90’s gave it away, smarks hated his guts in his prime and he just needed that boost from them he never got in his prime. He’s a good booker but I can’t stand the eulogies really, could Hunter the personality be trusted to run such a global powerhouse? there’s a good reason Steph and Nick Khan have been named co-CEO’s

I didn't say that he should book WWE like AEW. I'm saying that AEW has done certain storylines that have been incredible. And they have been incredible because they have been reality-based, logical and haven't shied away from recognizing that a world exists outside their little bubble, through casual references. Vince is said to have never even watched any wrestling show besides his own. Now I'm not saying that Vince wasn't a visionary or a genius with great instincts but being in that kind of bubble can be dangerous and can make you completely oblivious to change around you. At the end of the day, there are always things you can look at pick up from other places. Because no audience is completely uniform in the way they think about wrestling

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hunter is fantastic as long as you kiss his behind but if you stand up to him, that’s it, done! would he ever bring Punk back? I’d retire from this thread that day, this bloke sent him his notice on his wedding day. The talent Hunter gets along with now are mostly those who were mark’s that grew up watching him, if these guys had a difference of opinion with hun, do you seriously think it all would get rosy after that and Hunter would be the bigger person. He is a shrewd business person and an even more shrewd personality, the McMahons would want to keep him in check

Look, I get you hate towards HHH and I'm with you on alot of stuff. He has done some truly despicable things. But when I look at WWE right now, I really can't see anyone better equipped than him to take over creative. I mean who else can you think of? Bruce Prichard?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I didn’t say that is what different means but in his own words he implied he wouldn’t exactly book to cater entirely to one group of people, that would be financial suicide isolating the casual fans who bring in the money. Unless Hunter is stupid enough to do that I don’t know, he was a 4/10 wrestler so I wouldn’t put it beyond him. Seth and KO have more to thank Ryan Ward and Dusty Rhodes. You think Hunter would or should book the WWE like AEW? AEW is a different product and hardly the perfect wrestling show in the world today plus they are vastly inferior to what NXT was as a whole consistent wrestling show creatively anyway, AEW are still finding their feet. The whole NXT thing though was a big project to massage Hunter’s ego opening the PPV’s pretending he is Heyman in the 90’s gave it away, smarks hated his guts in his prime and he just needed that boost from them he never got in his prime. He’s a good booker but I can’t stand the eulogies really, could Hunter the personality be trusted to run such a global powerhouse? there’s a good reason Steph and Nick Khan have been named co-CEO’s

You're entitled to your opinion but I think 4/10 wrestler is harsh. At the end of the day he was one of the biggest stars of the AE and the RA era. There's no denying that he was a notch below Austin, Rock and worked with guys who drew the money, or that he buried a mountain of guys later on. But as a wrestler I thought his ring-work was always top-notch and among the best in the company.

 

[shaz619]

Look, I get you hate towards HHH and I'm with you on alot of stuff. He has done some truly despicable things. But when I look at WWE right now, I really can't see anyone better equipped than him to take over creative. I mean who else can you think of? Bruce Prichard?

Hate is a strong word but I strongly dislike the guy I am surprised so many overlook who he he truly is and am not downplaying his NXT efforts I enjoyed that. Heyman’s name has been thrown around but similarly he would be viewed potentially as a difficult personality, his relation with Steph wasn’t the best in the early 2000’s but they did work together and created magic during the RA era. Hunter am not saying is a bad option or anything but I don’t see him in a lead role or be given too much influence on a takeover level

 

[shaz619]

You're entitled to your opinion but I think 4/10 wrestler is harsh. At the end of the day he was one of the biggest stars of the AE and the RA era. There's no denying that he was a notch below Austin, Rock and worked with guys who drew the money, or that he buried a mountain of guys later on. But as a wrestler I thought his ring-work was always top-notch and among the best in the company.

Forget my opinion, Bret called him 4/10 you going against him

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] Hunter’s biggest issue between the ropes was thinking he was Harley Race, otherwise he would have been better. He worked with the GOAT’s and got the rub from them to in the ring, but if this guy was THAT good, why would he wrestle Reigns on auto pilot in a stadium during a time when Reigns really need to be presented as a major star, the match was the drizzling sh!ts, he tried to wrestle a clinic many a time when the situation simply did not demand it, Austin was special due to his high ring IQ he could wrestle like a technician and change things up based on the audience demand or level of heat in the feud, every time he has main evented be stank the joint mostly at WM, the Orton match, Reigns, Jericho for crying out loud, it took two legends to get his mania breakthrough in the ring. Hunter had a great look, skills etc but very low ring IQ and a huge ego

 

[shaz619]

I didn't say that he should book WWE like AEW. I'm saying that AEW has done certain storylines that have been incredible. And they have been incredible because they have been reality-based, logical and haven't shied away from recognizing that a world exists outside their little bubble, through casual references. Vince is said to have never even watched any wrestling show besides his own. Now I'm not saying that Vince wasn't a visionary or a genius with great instincts but being in that kind of bubble can be dangerous and can make you completely oblivious to change around you. At the end of the day, there are always things you can look at pick up from other places. Because no audience is completely uniform in the way they think about wrestling

I don’t know if Vince would have but those around him would have and advised accordingly, AE era was part inspired by ECW, I would have thought he would have checked that out somewhat ? there is no harm in watching competitors though most certainly and taking the good stuff

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] Hunter’s biggest issue between the ropes was thinking he was Harley Race, otherwise he would have been better. He worked with the GOAT’s and got the rub from them to in the ring, but if this guy was THAT good, why would he wrestle Reigns on auto pilot in a stadium during a time when Reigns really need to be presented as a major star, the match was the drizzling sh!ts, he tried to wrestle a clinic many a time when the situation simply did not demand it, Austin was special due to his high ring IQ he could wrestle like a technician and change things up based on the audience demand or level of heat in the feud, every time he has main evented be stank the joint mostly at WM, the Orton match, Reigns, Jericho for crying out loud, it took two legends to get his mania breakthrough in the ring. Hunter had a great look, skills etc but very low ring IQ and a huge ego

All that is perfectly fair criticism. And I agree with alot of what you said. But I would still rate him alot higher just because of the great matches he has put up over the years. I agree that he had a tendency to be indulgent on alot of occasions. But for me, he was still a talented worker with a good ring IQ. Even if he was nowhere near Bret, Austin, Rock, Taker, Shawn.

I don't rate his post 2005 period that highly. Besides the matches with Bryan and Taker (WM28) and a few here and there like the one against Moxley, there's not much there. But the McMahon-Helmsley era and the RA era run were both great heel runs that featured lots of great matches. I dunno but I see the Attitude Era as incomplete without him. Because the AE needed a credible villain who could hold his own against personalities as massive as Rock, Austin, Foley. And for me he delivered on that role quite well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Forget my opinion, Bret called him 4/10 you going against him

Hahahh well compared to Bret most guys are 2/10 wrestlers. So if anything he is overrating him.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Watched the ROH show, first time in a while where I checked out more then a few matches on a PPV:

Claudio’s world title match - Great match, excellent technical pedigree depicted by both, I couldn’t help but notice how short his opponent was, anyhow the match had great flow and the finish was straightforward, they didn’t overstay their welcome and Claudio was largely dominant which I liked. Enjoyed this.

Yuta v Garcia - Not the best match I’ve seen under pure rules, it took them 10 minutes to wake me up. The last 5 minutes of the match were great but they started out as though they are going to work for 2 hours, no flow, little action, too many dead spots, in contrast they could learn a great deal from the opener and Joe/Lethal. 15 minutes is a long time, you need to keep the audience engaged and keep the action going, they went all Zack Sabre Jnr on us for the first 10 minutes though, I was very close to skipping a good few times until things picked up.

Joe/Lethal - This is professional wrestling man, took me back to that kid who’d turn on the wrestling channel on Sky to watch the likes of Bryan, Joe, Daniels and co etc this match honestly, suspended my disbelief, the other match which managed it this year was Austin/KO. These two vets did the ROH history justice; loved the intensity from the word go, the match flowed nicely, very little stupid sh!t and the near falls were great.

FTR/Briscoe’s - Best match of the night, enjoyable/fun tag team action, it’s a rarity these days but what we come to expect from FTR who I absolutely prefer as heels but they worked well as faces to and recognised that role in the match which I liked, they make small adjustments which work really well, the smart arsse heel tactics they tend to utilise were minimised and they played of the crowd to build some nice heat on their opponents. Briscoe’s don’t really do anything special which is a big skill in present day landscape, largely kept their work simple and played of their strong character work which is their biggest asset, I don’t think their high spots were necessary nor did I agree with the hand shaking post match given their current gimmick. I’ve seen better 2 out of 3 falls matches involving FTR but this was still a lot of fun and a good way to close the show

A side note, I strongly dislike how overused the Piledriver is. It’s sad to see this move become just another near fall. The commentary on the show didn’t get my juices flowing but wasn’t awful, Mauro Ranallo would have been great in this situation but Regald did really well to try and salvage the pure title match and added great value in the booth, “turning the head minimised the impact” great line

I think I liked Yuta v Garcia alot more than you. Granted, this was not a classical pure rules match. They didn't really utilize the unique rules all that much. But this match showed me why these two are highly rated future prospects. Both need a fair bit of work, and you see a bit of indulgence in their work which is common with guys that work heavily on the indies where they are allowed to do what they like even though they haven't fully developed as wrestlers. At the same time though, I feel the talent is undeniable. Even when they were doing alot of grappling, their facials were good. You felt like it was a struggle.

FTR v Briscoes might be my favorite tag team match of all-time. I mean my expectations were high but somehow they blew even those out of the water. Re: Briscoes that's what makes them so great. Their brawling is just incredible. When you're in with them it feels like a fight. Every chop, punch, slap and lariat feels real. Probably because it is. And their style of wrestling suits their personalities perfectly. That contrast between a great pro-wrestling tag team and a great brawling tag-team worked so perfectly here.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My thoughts on ROH Death Before Dishonor:

Claudio v Gresham (3.5/5) - This match was really about one thing. And that was Claudio winning the title. But both he and Gresham went out and had a pretty good match. Despite the size difference (which was hard to ignore), Claudio did a great job of making Gresham seem like a legitimate threat by putting over his technical wrestling game. Match did not last long and I’m glad that it didn’t because everyone was waiting for the big moment. Pumped for Claudio and quite glad that he finally got to win a World title. If this was Gresham’s last match in AEW/ROH then I’d say its not a bad way to go out.

Yuta v Garcia (3.75/5) - I thought this was a very good match. They got off to a slow start but the in-ring work was solid throughout. Both guys tried to showcase their technical wrestling skills, the facials were good. It felt like an athletic contest and a struggle between two talented athletes. And towards the end it just took off and got really good. Really enjoyed it and very much looking forward to seeing more of these two in the future.

Rush v Dragon Lee (3.25/5) - Haven’t followed either of these guys in ROH and this match had no build-up coming in. But that said I thought they had a pretty fun match, all things considered. It was a fast-paced lucha match but without the over the top highspots that stretch the suspension of disbelief aspect.

Serena Deeb v Mercedes Martinez (2.5/5) - Fell asleep during this match. And when I woke-up and rewound I just couldn’t get into it. Serena looked great as always but Mercedes was not that impressive and didn’t look like she could hold a candle to what Deeb was doing. Also wasn’t a fan of her beating Deeb clean by submitting her.

Joe v Lethal (4.25/5) - What an awesome match. We all know what a talented worker Jay Lethal is, and how quick he is in the ring. But I think it was Joe who stole the show here. It never ceases to amaze me how athletic he is for his size. He was in rare form here. On top of that the chemistry between the two was so organic and so undeniable. This went by in a flash. Probably the best thing on the card after the main-event.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

FTR v The Briscoes - Rarely does a wrestling match exceed your expectations the way that this match did. They went 40+ minutes and there wasn’t a minute when I wasn’t completely transfixed. Everything about this match was absolute perfection. You felt the weight of every single, slap, punch and chop. The story was logical and well-told. Both teams started off as babyfaces and The Briscoes got the early advantage with the first fall. However, FTR kept fighting and finding a way to persevere which frustrated the Briscoes, who then started resorting to heelish tactics to try and put FTR away. Midway through the match the babyface-heel dynamic became perfectly clear and that’s where the match went into sixth gear. With each false finish the crowd popped even bigger than before. It’s like they just didn’t want it to end. FTR came back with a beautiful Big Rig outta' nowhere for the second fall, which only frustrated the Briscoes more who went back to their smash mouth brawling. Brawl to the outside and Caprice Coleman hilariously tells both teams to go for the Spanish announce table, instead of their table. The match went into a lot of different directions towards the end. Ref bump. Jey Briscoe hits a nasty piledriver on Dax but there’s no ref to count the pin. FTR counter with a Big Rig off the turnbuckle but Jey Briscoe kicks out(!!)...making him the first person to kick out of FTR’s finisher. An absolutely insane table spot follows as Cash takes himself and Mark Briscoe out of the match by suplexing him from the turnbuckle to the table on the outside. Jey and Dax duel in the ring until Dax finally catches Jey with the piledriver off the turnbuckle. 1...2…3 and FTR are still your ROH World Tag Team Champions.

The best tag team match I have ever seen. Probably one of the greatest wrestling matches ever. They could have gone 60 minutes and they still wouldn’t have run out of things to do. I haven’t watched a lot of the Rock N Roll Express, The Steiners, Midnight Express or The Freebirds but I just don’t see how FTR hasn’t etched their name in history as one of the greatest tag teams of all-time with this duology of matches with The Briscoes...who are very much in their league.

(5/5) The textbook definition of a perfect match. And one I will remember for time to come.

 

[shaz619]

All that is perfectly fair criticism. And I agree with alot of what you said. But I would still rate him alot higher just because of the great matches he has put up over the years. I agree that he had a tendency to be indulgent on alot of occasions. But for me, he was still a talented worker with a good ring IQ. Even if he was nowhere near Bret, Austin, Rock, Taker, Shawn.

I don't rate his post 2005 period that highly. Besides the matches with Bryan and Taker (WM28) and a few here and there like the one against Moxley, there's not much there. But the McMahon-Helmsley era and the RA era run were both great heel runs that featured lots of great matches. I dunno but I see the Attitude Era as incomplete without him. Because the AE needed a credible villain who could hold his own against personalities as massive as Rock, Austin, Foley. And for me he delivered on that role quite well.

He had a strong gimmick (The Game was sadly originally planned for Owen, can’t begin to imagine what he’d have done with it), and pretty good mic ability, in addition the massive support of creative and the license to do what be wants. Hunter was a good champion and reliable ignoring all the ** which is deplorable. But take away all the great workers he got to share the ring with, take away the gimmick, take away the creative support/influence and take away the smokes and mirrors which came with the gimmick matches which protected him. As a talent he was very good but the ring IQ is very low and that’s not even me the hater saying that, on very few occasions have I seen him have great matches with inferior opposition or people who had to rely on him to carry the match, I highlighted the Reigns and Orton matches but these are just a few examples of him failing to adapt in a situation which needed him to brawl and increase the level of intensity in the match / make it a fight, Flair was his hero and he could have learned something from the steamboat matches, some ignorant marks think wrestling in those days was just dead spots and rest holds but you watch that and see the flow was beautiful, the action kept moving and the audience was hooked. Only Harley can work the way be did and his style was also elevated by gritty action between the ropes and gimmick matches but he understood there was a time and place for that style, sometimes you need to adjust your pace for the situation

 

[shaz619]

I think I liked Yuta v Garcia alot more than you. Granted, this was not a classical pure rules match. They didn't really utilize the unique rules all that much. But this match showed me why these two are highly rated future prospects. Both need a fair bit of work, and you see a bit of indulgence in their work which is common with guys that work heavily on the indies where they are allowed to do what they like even though they haven't fully developed as wrestlers. At the same time though, I feel the talent is undeniable. Even when they were doing alot of grappling, their facials were good. You felt like it was a struggle.

FTR v Briscoes might be my favorite tag team match of all-time. I mean my expectations were high but somehow they blew even those out of the water. Re: Briscoes that's what makes them so great. Their brawling is just incredible. When you're in with them it feels like a fight. Every chop, punch, slap and lariat feels real. Probably because it is. And their style of wrestling suits their personalities perfectly. That contrast between a great pro-wrestling tag team and a great brawling tag-team worked so perfectly here.

The best prospect in wrestling today is MJF, I don’t see Garcia or Yuta as guys who are great talkers, they are reasonable workers but at this point I don’t know if they will be future stars based on their ring work alone, it’s great but not seeing ATG level potential unless I need to tone down my look on that because that may not be the expectation but I think generally whenever there’s a smark favourite that tends to be the expectation and I am looking at them with that in mind. They would have definitely had a better match possibly without the Pure rules and tried to get too cure here, I’ve seen Wheeler have better matches then that. But on this occasion that match didn’t do it for me.

That’s a big call, I guess it is personal but I tend to wait and if I watch the match again a few times afterwards, it tends to go down as one of the best I’ve ever seen, I will say that for the time they worked you couldn’t tell it was so long, the flow and pacing was outstanding. There are other incredible 2 out of 3 falls matches involving FTR from the black and gold era of NXT which I enjoyed to, may be worth a revisit. If there was one blemish it was the double suplex spot over the top rope that went wrong but it wasn’t really really bad or something. The PPV as a whole may be one of the best I’ve seen this year, top 2 for sure

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The best prospect in wrestling today is MJF, I don’t see Garcia or Yuta as guys who are great talkers, they are reasonable workers but at this point I don’t know if they will be future stars based on their ring work alone, it’s great but not seeing ATG level potential unless I need to tone down my look on that because that may not be the expectation but I think generally whenever there’s a smark favourite that tends to be the expectation and I am looking at them with that in mind. They would have definitely had a better match possibly without the Pure rules and tried to get too cure here, I’ve seen Wheeler have better matches then that. But on this occasion that match didn’t do it for me.

That’s a big call, I guess it is personal but I tend to wait and if I watch the match again a few times afterwards, it tends to go down as one of the best I’ve ever seen, I will say that for the time they worked you couldn’t tell it was so long, the flow and pacing was outstanding. There are other incredible 2 out of 3 falls matches involving FTR from the black and gold era of NXT which I enjoyed to, may be worth a revisit. If there was one blemish it was the double suplex spot over the top rope that went wrong but it wasn’t really really bad or something. The PPV as a whole may be one of the best I’ve seen this year, top 2 for sure

That's a fair assessment. Ofcourse none of these guys even comes close to MJF. Who in my opinion is already a tippy top guy in AEW. But I feel like both have something that can be built upon. They have the making of potential stars. Especially Garcia who is not a bad promo either. Yuta needs much work on his promos because he tends to come off as too one-dimensional. But considering they came into AEW a year ago, I feel their rise has been impressive. Yuta's best match came against Moxley months ago on Rampage. That was a genuine star-making performance where Mox got Yuta over despite beating the tar out of him and winning the match. Don't know if you've seen it but that was the match that got me excited in him. Only time will tell if they have what it takes to make it to the top but I'm interested to see how their careers progress. Also feel like these two might be crossing paths in the future numerous times if they can make it big.

I know what you mean. I had a similar experience with Danielson v Omega. Watching it for the first time I absolutely hated the finish because I wanted a result. And that made me have very negative feelings towards the match itself. But when I saw the match again, my opinion on it completely changed and I suddenly the finish didn't seem that illogical. That said, I have also seen numerous matches where while watching them I knew I was watching something truly special. Matches like Eddie/Rey @ Halloween Havoc '97, Punk/MJF @ Revolution, Cole/Gargano: the 2/3 falls one. And this one too.

Loved both those DIY/FTR matches. But one they had against The Briscoes and teh one against the Bucks on Dynamite eclipse those for me

 

[shaz619]

That's a fair assessment. Ofcourse none of these guys even comes close to MJF. Who in my opinion is already a tippy top guy in AEW. But I feel like both have something that can be built upon. They have the making of potential stars. Especially Garcia who is not a bad promo either. Yuta needs much work on his promos because he tends to come off as too one-dimensional. But considering they came into AEW a year ago, I feel their rise has been impressive. Yuta's best match came against Moxley months ago on Rampage. That was a genuine star-making performance where Mox got Yuta over despite beating the tar out of him and winning the match. Don't know if you've seen it but that was the match that got me excited in him. Only time will tell if they have what it takes to make it to the top but I'm interested to see how their careers progress. Also feel like these two might be crossing paths in the future numerous times if they can make it big.

I know what you mean. I had a similar experience with Danielson v Omega. Watching it for the first time I absolutely hated the finish because I wanted a result. And that made me have very negative feelings towards the match itself. But when I saw the match again, my opinion on it completely changed and I suddenly the finish didn't seem that illogical. That said, I have also seen numerous matches where while watching them I knew I was watching something truly special. Matches like Eddie/Rey @ Halloween Havoc '97, Punk/MJF @ Revolution, Cole/Gargano: the 2/3 falls one. And this one too.

Loved both those DIY/FTR matches. But one they had against The Briscoes and teh one against the Bucks on Dynamite eclipse those for me

Yeah I watched that, it was a great match but I also want to give Mox big props for it, that’s why I say he isn’t a brawling specialist or something, he’s more of all round performer who does great at a little bit of everything with a decent ring IQ which unfortunately isn’t used enough when he is made to feel he can work without any rules or structure.

Yes I shared the same frustration as you at the time but looking back it was the perfect booking decision to protect two stars but as time limit draws are not typical and we are not numb to them on national TV it was more horrifying as a result.

Ah man Cole/Gargano the most dramatic match I’ve ever seen live, jet lagged and trying to stay up with red bull, I don’t agree with Dave’s rating but it was fun. Yeah some matches just make you suspend your disbelief, very few moments where a work and scrip forces its way into reality.

Btw Hunter got the lead creative role as much as folk enjoyed going after Vince each week, I may have found a new hobby it’s good news for the product but lets see what changes transpire, Bruce is still there, surely they need to fire him. Steph meanwhile must be dreaming about putting a hit on Nick Khan

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yeah I watched that, it was a great match but I also want to give Mox big props for it, that’s why I say he isn’t a brawling specialist or something, he’s more of all round performer who does great at a little bit of everything with a decent ring IQ which unfortunately isn’t used enough when he is made to feel he can work without any rules or structure.

Yes I shared the same frustration as you at the time but looking back it was the perfect booking decision to protect two stars but as time limit draws are not typical and we are not numb to them on national TV it was more horrifying as a result.

Ah man Cole/Gargano the most dramatic match I’ve ever seen live, jet lagged and trying to stay up with red bull, I don’t agree with Dave’s rating but it was fun. Yeah some matches just make you suspend your disbelief, very few moments where a work and scrip forces its way into reality.

Btw Hunter got the lead creative role as much as folk enjoyed going after Vince each week, I may have found a new hobby it’s good news for the product but lets see what changes transpire, Bruce is still there, surely they need to fire him. Steph meanwhile must be dreaming about putting a hit on Nick Khan

For sure. Mox giving him as much as he did is the biggest reason he got over. I also felt they told an interesting story with those two. First time around Mox completely squashed him without giving him anything. Second time around, Yuta got some offence in. Third time around, we got this. So if Yuta is ever in a position to be elevated and go over on Mox in the future, the groundwork has already been laid.

Yeah no doubt Mox has certain tendencies and quirks that are quite frustrating and take you out of his matches. But despite that, all in all, I personally would still put him among the best wrestlers in the world.

LOL Dave's ratings have lost any and all sense of credibility, for quite some time now. Like, why would you even create a scale if you just want to break it?

Really? That's quite interesting. I guess you can't keep a good backstage politician down for long

Still though will be interesting to see if the product changes in any significant way, or stays the same. Bruce still being there doesn't make any sense considering he was said to have catered exclusively to Vince. But then again, Bruce is also said to be a great a**kisser, so he might just hold onto his job.

 

[shaz619]

For sure. Mox giving him as much as he did is the biggest reason he got over. I also felt they told an interesting story with those two. First time around Mox completely squashed him without giving him anything. Second time around, Yuta got some offence in. Third time around, we got this. So if Yuta is ever in a position to be elevated and go over on Mox in the future, the groundwork has already been laid.

Yeah no doubt Mox has certain tendencies and quirks that are quite frustrating and take you out of his matches. But despite that, all in all, I personally would still put him among the best wrestlers in the world.

LOL Dave's ratings have lost any and all sense of credibility, for quite some time now. Like, why would you even create a scale if you just want to break it?

Really? That's quite interesting. I guess you can't keep a good backstage politician down for long

Still though will be interesting to see if the product changes in any significant way, or stays the same. Bruce still being there doesn't make any sense considering he was said to have catered exclusively to Vince. But then again, Bruce is also said to be a great a**kisser, so he might just hold onto his job.

On pure ability alone off-course I’d put him in the top 10 or top 5 even, based on his resume in the last few years, can’t say am impressed on the whole as I believe he hasn’t utilised his brain or the tools in his bag. This is a guy who actually helped Hunter wrestle the sort of singles match he kept dreaming of, and that takes special skill, I know there are others who achieved that to but this is Mox who is wrongly stereotyped as a ‘brawler’ and unfortunately Mox has taken that ball and run with it, but with his own interpretation of what that should be, giving in to the worst of impulses

In his first hour in charge, Hunter buried Theory on a serious note, that was a fire promo from Reigns and I will reserve my judgement on how Hunter feels about Theory until the end of SS. If Vince was around, I was moderately confident about a successful cash-in, now that he’s gone, am curious to see how Theory will be presented. The skeptic in me senses high levels of pettiness but I will reserve my judgement for now because it could be a bluff for the crowning of a new champion

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

On pure ability alone off-course I’d put him in the top 10 or top 5 even, based on his resume in the last few years, can’t say am impressed on the whole as I believe he hasn’t utilised his brain or the tools in his bag. This is a guy who actually helped Hunter wrestle the sort of singles match he kept dreaming of, and that takes special skill, I know there are others who achieved that to but this is Mox who is wrongly stereotyped as a ‘brawler’ and unfortunately Mox has taken that ball and run with it, but with his own interpretation of what that should be, giving in to the worst of impulses

In his first hour in charge, Hunter buried Theory on a serious note, that was a fire promo from Reigns and I will reserve my judgement on how Hunter feels about Theory until the end of SS. If Vince was around, I was moderately confident about a successful cash-in, now that he’s gone, am curious to see how Theory will be presented. The skeptic in me senses high levels of pettiness but I will reserve my judgement for now because it could be a bluff for the crowning of a new champion

That opening segment was fire tho lmao. Loved the 'Who's your daddy chant' from the smark MSG crowd. It's probably best not to judge the new McMahon-Helmsley era based on this show, since it was written before Vince left. But even here there were little things that felt different. The opening promo obviously had some Vince zingers added in but other than that it was a Roman Reigns segment which means it was detached from the rest of the show anyway...as it has been for the last two years. So that didn't feel all that different. The Rey segment did tho. Not only was he allowed to go out there and speak his mind, speak Spanish and thank people like Konnan (who are not in WWE) but he also didn't get the s**t kicked out of him during this segment which would have have been such a Vince move. And I'll be honest I was expecting it to happen as soon the Judgment Day started circling the ring. Ofc it ended up happening twice later anyway but I'm glad he got to have that special moment and win the match on his big night. Another thing that was different: almost every match had a finish! I honestly can't recall the last time I saw that happen on RAW. Yeah there was one DQ but it led to another match with two of the same participants.

Look, there's a difference between burying Theory and not shoving him down our throats which is what Vince's MO becomes when he really likes someone. He did the same thing with Cena and he did the same thing with Reigns. Luckily, Theory is a heel so the heat works in his favor. And look, Theory is good. I would put him among the top future wrestling prospects working today. He has alot of key aspects already down, which he is only going to get better at. But I also think he's not there yet. I'm okay with him getting his a** kicked but I am not a fan of plastering him all over the show with never-ending 9 minute promos and endless segments that always end the same way. He also needs to seriously work on his ability to get heat during his matches. Because so far all I've seen is chinlocks and headlocks.


I also don't feel that he should be featured at a better position on the show than guys like AJ Styles, Sami Zayn, KO, Ricochet. The fact that Styles, Zayn and KO aren't even on the SummerSlam card is a travesty.

I mean how long has KO even been involved in that nonsensical feud with Elias? 3 months? This guy was working Stone Cold at WrestleMania this year and was re-signed seemingly for millions and millions of dollars. And now he is not even on the SummerSlam card. Talk about going from the penthouse to the outhouse.

So if anything, I am hoping that Hunter can atleast throw some love to his old NXT guys. And not just KO, Zayn, Balor, Ricochet, Styles (not NXT but still) who are quite accomplished wrestlers in WWE today. But guys like Ciampa and LA Knight too who have either been flunkies or saddled with idiotic gimmicks since they came to the main roster.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Btw what is their problem with Dominik Dijakovic? He's probably the most coordinated big man they have who can also work good matches. He was featured at a fairly prominent position in NXT and has a fair bit of equity among the marks for his work on the indies too. Yet all he has been since getting here is an interchangeable no-name jobber. I means just going by Vince's love for big guys I would have thought that he was someone they would have done more with.

 

[shaz619]

That opening segment was fire tho lmao. Loved the 'Who's your daddy chant' from the smark MSG crowd. It's probably best not to judge the new McMahon-Helmsley era based on this show, since it was written before Vince left. But even here there were little things that felt different. The opening promo obviously had some Vince zingers added in but other than that it was a Roman Reigns segment which means it was detached from the rest of the show anyway...as it has been for the last two years. So that didn't feel all that different. The Rey segment did tho. Not only was he allowed to go out there and speak his mind, speak Spanish and thank people like Konnan (who are not in WWE) but he also didn't get the s**t kicked out of him during this segment which would have have been such a Vince move. And I'll be honest I was expecting it to happen as soon the Judgment Day started circling the ring. Ofc it ended up happening twice later anyway but I'm glad he got to have that special moment and win the match on his big night. Another thing that was different: almost every match had a finish! I honestly can't recall the last time I saw that happen on RAW. Yeah there was one DQ but it led to another match with two of the same participants.

Look, there's a difference between burying Theory and not shoving him down our throats which is what Vince's MO becomes when he really likes someone. He did the same thing with Cena and he did the same thing with Reigns. Luckily, Theory is a heel so the heat works in his favor. And look, Theory is good. I would put him among the top future wrestling prospects working today. He has alot of key aspects already down, which he is only going to get better at. But I also think he's not there yet. I'm okay with him getting his a** kicked but I am not a fan of plastering him all over the show with never-ending 9 minute promos and endless segments that always end the same way. He also needs to seriously work on his ability to get heat during his matches. Because so far all I've seen is chinlocks and headlocks.


I also don't feel that he should be featured at a better position on the show than guys like AJ Styles, Sami Zayn, KO, Ricochet. The fact that Styles, Zayn and KO aren't even on the SummerSlam card is a travesty.

I mean how long has KO even been involved in that nonsensical feud with Elias? 3 months? This guy was working Stone Cold at WrestleMania this year and was re-signed seemingly for millions and millions of dollars. And now he is not even on the SummerSlam card. Talk about going from the penthouse to the outhouse.

So if anything, I am hoping that Hunter can atleast throw some love to his old NXT guys. And not just KO, Zayn, Balor, Ricochet, Styles (not NXT but still) who are quite accomplished wrestlers in WWE today. But guys like Ciampa and LA Knight too who have either been flunkies or saddled with idiotic gimmicks since they came to the main roster.

On the flip side you can look at it as Theory being built up to regardless off the segments because he was on TV for the better part of an hour and there can be little doubt that he will be playing a major part at SS. Yeah they wouldn’t have had enough time to make whole sale changes and not sure if that’s what we will see right away even a week from now. I would say Theory has been pushed but hardly shoved down the throats like Cena or Reigns, he learned from his mistakes by pushing him as a heel, Vince is rarely wrong about the person he wants to draw the big money for his target audience. As an all round package there is ability clearly and serious potential his ring work is very clean and the promo’s are solid, great shape and a good look, but being the man is more then even having a great match, can they handle the ridiculous schedule which is gets even more stupid for the champion, grit and determination play a massive part to, if we went by how smark’s feel Cena would have been done and dusted by 2006.

I’ve paid little attention to that angle but KO/Eias stuff and Liv’s championship journey have been incredible over with majority of the audience and by the looks of it, with the social media crowd as well. Elias is a good gimmick guy and with KO, he’s a lot like Jericho, he tends to be 100% committed to the story and goes all the way

The MSG show overall was meh did not do the arena justice, I also miss the old set

 

[shaz619]

Btw what is their problem with Dominik Dijakovic? He's probably the most coordinated big man they have who can also work good matches. He was featured at a fairly prominent position in NXT and has a fair bit of equity among the marks for his work on the indies too. Yet all he has been since getting here is an interchangeable no-name jobber. I means just going by Vince's love for big guys I would have thought that he was someone they would have done more with.

That one is a mystery, maybe it was his european origin’s, he wasn’t a talker but still. Lee got the push but had attitude issues apparently

 

[shaz619]

So Bryan was buried by that bum not fit to tie his shoe laces, I didn’t even realise he would be back on TV, no hype nothing. The finish involved dropping him on his head, (pile-driver is now uses to set up a finish), then Bryan randomly passed out to the sharpshooter. One of the worst booking decisions I’ve seen for some time and even worse the lack of professionalism and basic awareness, they dropped this guy like that despite the concussion issues on his return. This job was a complete waste, meant nothing, very little build and it is pathetic Bryan has to do jobs for mid card smark hype jobs, from working the main events to this, a complete burial of his legacy and achievements. This Garcia guy isn’t half of what Dean Malenko was nor is has he made as big a splash as Lesnar did when he showed up, even Austin wouldn’t put him over on TV when you could have made some case out of it given his achievements and main event push. Building up new guys is a good thought when a bunch of amateurs are not on the booking team, assuming there is one besides the money mark clown.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I didn't have as much of an issue with Bryan doing the job. I like Daniel Garcia much more than you. I think he has potential and its highly likely that Bryan wanted to do the job himself. But like you said, it meant nothing because of the way it was executed. Mostly though I was just absolutely repulsed and disgusted by how his concussion was made the point of this match. It was uncomfortable to see. And although the piledriver was not executed the way it usually is--Garcia twisted it a little which basically meant that Bryan wasn't landing like you usually do---its still a freakin' piledriver. And more than anything, it was an uncomfortable sight. For me, this was one of the worst matches they have ever put on featuring a major star. And this is only two weeks after we saw that Jericho-Eddie Kingston trainwreck.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Bryan is probably one of the legit good guys in pro-wrestling. This guy lobbied to put Drew Gulak over on PPV. Put Claudio over clean when they were thinking of pushing him for like a month in 2021. I'm sure he even wanted to/or was happy to put Garica over. And look, I can even appreciate the idea of putting a young guy over. We don't know if Garcia will be good or not, but as a wrestling promotion your job is to try and create new stars. But if you are putting him over Bryan freakin' Danielson: the best pro-wrestler in the world, the least you an do is do everything to ensure that, that match means something.

This meant nothing, looked awful and ended up doing more damage to Bryan than any kind of benefit to Garcia.

With everything that's already known about concussions, as well as the association they have with the history of the wrestling business I don't think its alright to work a match around them. Its uncomfortable and takes you out of the match. And I'm someone who generally has a much higher threshold than most people in regards to things that make you uncomfortable in wrestling. The only thing that Garcia got in this match was cheap heat. You could have had the Gobbledy Gooker out there targeting Bryan's concussion and he would have gotten the same reaction.

There's zero booking genius involved in putting a match like this together. Its just mark booking. Trying to be an controversial, just for the sake of being controversial.

 

[Aman]

Ricky Starks is a star and gun on the mic.

Gives me Rock vibes on the mic and has great charisma. I suggest everyone check out a few of his recent promos.

 

[shaz619]

Bryan is probably one of the legit good guys in pro-wrestling. This guy lobbied to put Drew Gulak over on PPV. Put Claudio over clean when they were thinking of pushing him for like a month in 2021. I'm sure he even wanted to/or was happy to put Garica over. And look, I can even appreciate the idea of putting a young guy over. We don't know if Garcia will be good or not, but as a wrestling promotion your job is to try and create new stars. But if you are putting him over Bryan freakin' Danielson: the best pro-wrestler in the world, the least you an do is do everything to ensure that, that match means something.

This meant nothing, looked awful and ended up doing more damage to Bryan than any kind of benefit to Garcia.

With everything that's already known about concussions, as well as the association they have with the history of the wrestling business I don't think its alright to work a match around them. Its uncomfortable and takes you out of the match. And I'm someone who generally has a much higher threshold than most people in regards to things that make you uncomfortable in wrestling. The only thing that Garcia got in this match was cheap heat. You could have had the Gobbledy Gooker out there targeting Bryan's concussion and he would have gotten the same reaction.

There's zero booking genius involved in putting a match like this together. Its just mark booking. Trying to be an controversial, just for the sake of being controversial.

Come on bro Garcia is nothing special, an ok worker but loads of those around, there are plenty of better options for the rub, not to mention the likes of MJF and Starks have you noticed how it is funny to see how some hipsters jump on his bandwagon now having seen very little of his best work as a face, but these two are off limits, MJF is AWOL, Starks was in a faction and starting a new journey as a singles star, even Garcia isn’t he in some faction anyway lol if someone deserves a rub it should be someone they are building as a top guy and you know I have some reservations, but Wardlow was probably the best candidate at this stage heck I’d have settled with Darby Allin to who has been presented consistently as a top guy. But as you say, this was extremely poor, no build, meant nothing and the finish was disastrous, the pile-driver is a move which should be banned during regular TV matches and these kids shouldn’t be allowed to use it. Tony Khan thinks he is a high level promoter who has enough experience to write the show, the way he talks during interviews and pressers you’d think the guy is the GOAT booker of all time, he is playing Vince, Jim, Dusty, Bill Watts et al and all those guys, the narcissism is on another level, this is their biggest problem the money mark being the creative authority despite his lack of competence. It would appear Punk is fed up to I saw on social media him saying if you like Garbage wrestling, watch AEW, somehow also think it’s a back handed insult @ Jericho lol there’s also a clip of Jim from his podcast describing the match while things play out, even worse if you listen to that because he picks up things I’d not always see in a million years but it was just so awful, he is ruining his legacy and I don’t blame Kingston when Jericho is the vet who to my surprise is putting himself down to low levels we’ve never seen before in his career, then again Tony is his promoter

SS is actually tomorrow, what an underwhelming car besides the main event which is the only thing I find interesting as it has been built up well with multiple angles at play. Remember when we once got Bryan/Cena, Punk/Brock and I might be wrong bur also Orton/Christian all on the same card

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Come on bro Garcia is nothing special, an ok worker but loads of those around, there are plenty of better options for the rub, not to mention the likes of MJF and Starks have you noticed how it is funny to see how some hipsters jump on his bandwagon now having seen very little of his best work as a face, but these two are off limits, MJF is AWOL, Starks was in a faction and starting a new journey as a singles star, even Garcia isn’t he in some faction anyway lol if someone deserves a rub it should be someone they are building as a top guy and you know I have some reservations, but Wardlow was probably the best candidate at this stage heck I’d have settled with Darby Allin to who has been presented consistently as a top guy. But as you say, this was extremely poor, no build, meant nothing and the finish was disastrous, the pile-driver is a move which should be banned during regular TV matches and these kids shouldn’t be allowed to use it. Tony Khan thinks he is a high level promoter who has enough experience to write the show, the way he talks during interviews and pressers you’d think the guy is the GOAT booker of all time, he is playing Vince, Jim, Dusty, Bill Watts et al and all those guys, the narcissism is on another level, this is their biggest problem the money mark being the creative authority despite his lack of competence. It would appear Punk is fed up to I saw on social media him saying if you like Garbage wrestling, watch AEW, somehow also think it’s a back handed insult @ Jericho lol there’s also a clip of Jim from his podcast describing the match while things play out, even worse if you listen to that because he picks up things I’d not always see in a million years but it was just so awful, he is ruining his legacy and I don’t blame Kingston when Jericho is the vet who to my surprise is putting himself down to low levels we’ve never seen before in his career, then again Tony is his promoter

SS is actually tomorrow, what an underwhelming car besides the main event which is the only thing I find interesting as it has been built up well with multiple angles at play. Remember when we once got Bryan/Cena, Punk/Brock and I might be wrong bur also Orton/Christian all on the same card

I don't disagree with you. He's nowhere near MJF, Wardlow, Starks, Darby. I would even say that Yuta is significantly better than him in the ring. And you're completely right that those guys would have benefitted much more from this rub than Garcia. But at the end of the day, Bryan is high on him so I can understand and rationalize it. What I can't understand or rationalize is how the match was booked.

Thing with Jericho is that now its not just one or two cases. Its a pattern. Someone on the internet pointed out how Jericho always latches himself on to whoever is hot in AEW, and keeps a hold of them until he ruins and destroys all their momentum. Alot of wrestling fans may not like Orange Cassidy, but he has been one of AEW's hottest acts from the very beginning. Jericho latches himself on to him and has that awful feud which ends with a match where you have to throw the other guy in a vat of orange juice or something. Then he latched himself on to MJF. And had that atrocious year-long feud that just wouldn't end. Just the s**ttiest rip-off of Attitude Era WWE week after week after week. It was probably one of the reasons why I stopped watching AEW altogether for some time there. Somehow though MJF managed to come out of that feud unscathed. And then ofcourse, Jericho latched himself on to Eddie. Last year Eddie was one of the most over guys in AEW. He was going toe to toe with Punk, delivering fire promos week after week...even with guys like MJF, Punk, Mox on the roster, he was the best for a moment in time there. The fans loved him because he felt authentic and real. And then he has this feud with Jericho that's been gong on for 5 or 6 freakin' months now and all his momentum is completely dead in the water.

Jericho does have the ability to come up with good stuff every now and then. The Anarchy in the Arena match was very different and unique...even the first match he had with Kingston was outstanding, and his best match in years. But the ratio of good stuff to awful/atrocious stuff is too heavily tilted on one side. Jericho for me has started believing his own hype a little too much. He is insufferable to listen to in these AEW media scrums where he thinks he is some kind of artist painting these masterpieces. He thinks everything he comes up with is just the most brilliant thing ever. But really its just the same s**t rehashed over and over again. He can spend all the money on trademarks that he wants, at the end of the day has the same gimmick he had since Dynamite went on air, his new group is just another reboot of the Inner Circle. I guess the only thing that has really changed is that his ability in the ring has fallen off a cliff because now this idiot can't even blade without being in full view of the camera while yelling out instructions. I mean how lazy can you get lol?

For over two years now his segments on Dynamite have consistently been the worst thing on the show. Yes, even worse than heel champ Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks acting like 15 year olds. And thing is, now they are starting to stand-out more than ever because you do see how much better the segments involving Punk or MJF or FTR or Christian Cage are.

And that match with Kingston was the breaking point for me personally. Not only was it an overbooked pile of garbage with so many botches and lazy B.S. But it ended with Jericho getting the win on Kingston. In what universe is that logical booking?? Kingston, the babyface is the one who made the match a Barbed Wire match so he could get his revenge on Jericho.

Jericho should have some shame and just retire. Because its obvious that Tony doesn't have the balls to tell Jericho like it is.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Come on bro Garcia is nothing special, an ok worker but loads of those around, there are plenty of better options for the rub, not to mention the likes of MJF and Starks have you noticed how it is funny to see how some hipsters jump on his bandwagon now having seen very little of his best work as a face, but these two are off limits, MJF is AWOL, Starks was in a faction and starting a new journey as a singles star, even Garcia isn’t he in some faction anyway lol if someone deserves a rub it should be someone they are building as a top guy and you know I have some reservations, but Wardlow was probably the best candidate at this stage heck I’d have settled with Darby Allin to who has been presented consistently as a top guy. But as you say, this was extremely poor, no build, meant nothing and the finish was disastrous, the pile-driver is a move which should be banned during regular TV matches and these kids shouldn’t be allowed to use it. Tony Khan thinks he is a high level promoter who has enough experience to write the show, the way he talks during interviews and pressers you’d think the guy is the GOAT booker of all time, he is playing Vince, Jim, Dusty, Bill Watts et al and all those guys, the narcissism is on another level, this is their biggest problem the money mark being the creative authority despite his lack of competence. It would appear Punk is fed up to I saw on social media him saying if you like Garbage wrestling, watch AEW, somehow also think it’s a back handed insult @ Jericho lol there’s also a clip of Jim from his podcast describing the match while things play out, even worse if you listen to that because he picks up things I’d not always see in a million years but it was just so awful, he is ruining his legacy and I don’t blame Kingston when Jericho is the vet who to my surprise is putting himself down to low levels we’ve never seen before in his career, then again Tony is his promoter

SS is actually tomorrow, what an underwhelming car besides the main event which is the only thing I find interesting as it has been built up well with multiple angles at play. Remember when we once got Bryan/Cena, Punk/Brock and I might be wrong bur also Orton/Christian all on the same card

I think that may have been 2013. Christian/Orton was 2011. But 2011 to 2013 was very solid. Punk/Cena, Brock/HHH, Cena/Bryan, Punk/Brock, Orton/Christian. I think in there was a triple threat involving Punk, Big Show and Cena in between there as well that I remember being very excited for. Point is, SummerSlam felt like a big show with multiple big matches. Now it seems that they are more interested in getting celebrities on the show rather than actual wrestlers. I mean Logan v The Miz? Like give me a break man. I don't care about either of these guys or the size of the Miz's family jewels. Maybe because I'm not 12 years old.

No KO, Edge, McIntyre, Sami Zayn, AJ Styles, WALTER on the show. And now, Rollins v Riddle has been pulled too.

My only hope is that the booking of the matches will be logical, we will get to see good wrestling, and that we won't get shortchanged on the main event like we were at WrestleMania. I don't care if Brock and Roman go 15 minutes or 30 minutes. But the match should be something different from everything we have already seen these guys do.

Hopefully also, we will see a different WWE coming out of this PPV, since this card was essentially booked by Vince. Already we are seeing signs. Like I heard that Sheamus and McIntyre went 26 minutes on SD last night and the match was absolute banger. Will check it out soon but point is that, that is not something I could have ever imagined happening when Vince was in-charge. We got 20+ minutes on TV maybe twice or thrice a year. And usually they always involved Roman.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] btw what do you think of Taz's son Hook?

Personally, I think he's absolutely amazing and has box-office written all over him. Ofcourse till now, he has been getting over with the Taz/Goldberg booking so you can't really comment on his in-ring ability but the presentation is very much on point and the kid has a remarkable amount of natural charisma for someone who doesn't speak a word. I also think that with someone like Taz guiding him every step of the way, he has a bright future ahead of him.

I wasn't too happy about Ricky getting beat that quick this week but I thought they were still able to salvage that with Ricky delivering that promo, turning face and then having Hobbs turn on him. Interested to see how Starks does as a babyface singles star. Hopefully, he can get an actual push this time around and be involved in interesting programs instead of being an afterthought on the show.