The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[shaz619]

The KC Vault on YouTube continues to release some excellent content. Guest Booker in particular is a good series.

I was pleasantly surprised by Vince Russo's rebooking of The Invasion. It was miles better than Jim Cornette who booked Terry Funk to beat Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

His angle was logical and made better sense than the mess we actually saw.

Not so good - Roddy Piper's (in)famous Timeline of 1984 shoot. It's the interview where Piper seemingly infers Pat Patterson made a pass at him, although he walked those claims back later.

Piper was frail, incoherent, and struggled to remember the questions the host asked him. Unfortunately the health warning signs were there.

Like many of the 80s talent - he partied hard, dabbled in drugs and booze, and probably suffered CTE. He also had a traumatic childhood and may have even been abused as a child which perhaps explains the substance issues.

Legend’s House (worth a watch on the Network) was quiet the eye opener when it came to giving us an insight into Piper state of mind. He has always been an eccentric guy who also values his alone time but it was quiet the sight watching him wondering in the dessert and howling at the moon lol

Can’t take anything Russo says seriously, does he have even one credible idea which he executed successfully on his own? the bloke was contagious wherever he went.

What’s the context behind how Funk would go over? he was a huge star in his own right, the hardcore garbage wrestling overshadows a deeply impressive resume among the modern fans anyway, he was an excellent character and highly skilled technician between the ropes. That match with Flair at clash of champions stacks up against the best I’ve ever seen and the one with Steamboat, despite the f-fests under Paul E he still reminded us of how special he was in the ring during the super card he helped put together when he wrestled Bret in his “retirement” match.

 

[shaz619]

TNA feud was different between Drew and Lashley but the WWE feud last year was book awfully tbh. Lashley was consistently made to look like an inferior guy than Drew.

On pure match quality, they never had a single bad match in the E. On the booking side, it was a matter of fickle fans getting what they want (Drew as champ) and then turning on him, it was a shame because he carried the title through the pandemic era, I don’t blame the for wanting to get more out of his reign before realising it was ‘g worth it with the lack of heat on the baby face

 

[BunnyRabbit]

On pure match quality, they never had a single bad match in the E. On the booking side, it was a matter of fickle fans getting what they want (Drew as champ) and then turning on him, it was a shame because he carried the title through the pandemic era, I don’t blame the for wanting to get more out of his reign before realising it was ‘g worth it with the lack of heat on the baby face

I think the crowd was with him till the Randy feud. They needlessly gave the title to Randy for 2 weeks. That hurt Drew's momentum. It was around that time when they started the sword and skirt nonsense as well. Plus booking Miz into the title picture totally sucked the life out of that reign.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Legend’s House (worth a watch on the Network) was quiet the eye opener when it came to giving us an insight into Piper state of mind. He has always been an eccentric guy who also values his alone time but it was quiet the sight watching him wondering in the dessert and howling at the moon lol

Can’t take anything Russo says seriously, does he have even one credible idea which he executed successfully on his own? the bloke was contagious wherever he went.

What’s the context behind how Funk would go over? he was a huge star in his own right, the hardcore garbage wrestling overshadows a deeply impressive resume among the modern fans anyway, he was an excellent character and highly skilled technician between the ropes. That match with Flair at clash of champions stacks up against the best I’ve ever seen and the one with Steamboat, despite the f-fests under Paul E he still reminded us of how special he was in the ring during the super card he helped put together when he wrestled Bret in his “retirement” match.

Funk probably had 4 or 5 retirement tours starting from 80s. Don't think he should have ever gotten close to breaking Taker's streak.

As far as I am concerned, it shouldn't have been broken. But even when they did, Brock was the only believable choice. Don't think Taker had ever beaten him even back in 2003 feud. Brock wasn't booked well enough before breaking the streak in his second run. He even lost to Trips and only beat him after Heyman's interference. It was laughable for Lesnar needing help to beat someone.

Just imagine Roman being the one to break the streak. It would have been received even worse than when Roman beat him at Mania 2017.

 

[Markhor]

Legend’s House (worth a watch on the Network) was quiet the eye opener when it came to giving us an insight into Piper state of mind. He has always been an eccentric guy who also values his alone time but it was quiet the sight watching him wondering in the dessert and howling at the moon lol

Can’t take anything Russo says seriously, does he have even one credible idea which he executed successfully on his own? the bloke was contagious wherever he went.

What’s the context behind how Funk would go over? he was a huge star in his own right, the hardcore garbage wrestling overshadows a deeply impressive resume among the modern fans anyway, he was an excellent character and highly skilled technician between the ropes. That match with Flair at clash of champions stacks up against the best I’ve ever seen and the one with Steamboat, despite the f-fests under Paul E he still reminded us of how special he was in the ring during the super card he helped put together when he wrestled Bret in his “retirement” match.

I've never seen Legends House but apparently Pat and Piper didn't say a word to each other ?

Something happened but we'll never know as both guys are gone.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The KC Vault on YouTube continues to release some excellent content. Guest Booker in particular is a good series.

I was pleasantly surprised by Vince Russo's rebooking of The Invasion. It was miles better than Jim Cornette who booked Terry Funk to beat Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

His angle was logical and made better sense than the mess we actually saw.

Not so good - Roddy Piper's (in)famous Timeline of 1984 shoot. It's the interview where Piper seemingly infers Pat Patterson made a pass at him, although he walked those claims back later.

Piper was frail, incoherent, and struggled to remember the questions the host asked him. Unfortunately the health warning signs were there.

Like many of the 80s talent - he partied hard, dabbled in drugs and booze, and probably suffered CTE. He also had a traumatic childhood and may have even been abused as a child which perhaps explains the substance issues.

If there's one person in wrestling who has zero credibility in my eyes its Russo. He had the ability to come up with a couple of good ideas out of 50 or 60. But his idea of what wrestling was, was an insult to wrestling itself. His entire WCW run from 1999-2000 is a case-study in just that. One of the the worst wrestling TV shows in the history of the business. Just absolute dreck from top to bottom with zero redeeming qualities.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't know much about Piper's personal life but that guy had a personality that was better than everyone of that era. John Carpenter the legendary director said after casting Piper in his cult film They Live something along those lines as well.

Big Carpenter fan and I agree with you that Piper's casting in this movie was a stroke of genius. He wasn't Marlon Brando or anything but for this role he was perfect, because he could just be badass Rowdy Roddy Piper and still be entertaining as hell to watch,

 

[shaz619]

Funk probably had 4 or 5 retirement tours starting from 80s. Don't think he should have ever gotten close to breaking Taker's streak.

As far as I am concerned, it shouldn't have been broken. But even when they did, Brock was the only believable choice. Don't think Taker had ever beaten him even back in 2003 feud. Brock wasn't booked well enough before breaking the streak in his second run. He even lost to Trips and only beat him after Heyman's interference. It was laughable for Lesnar needing help to beat someone.

Just imagine Roman being the one to break the streak. It would have been received even worse than when Roman beat him at Mania 2017.

Am sure the guest booker involved fantasy booking, Funk’s retirements have nothing to do with this, he didn’t kill his wife and kids and that guy who did is still worshipped. Funk practically could never have been a candidate, he was under ECW contract for most of his late career or working with outlaw promotions. We looking at Funk in his peak and prime form, he was a megastar in his own right / more then capable of carrying a huge burden on his shoulders.

But if you’re asking me who should have ended it then I agree that there is no one more deserving or worthy then Brock, it was a stroke of genius from Vince and how they have used Brock since, absolutely justifies it. He’s the wrestler of the decade 2010-2019, when you look at his match quality, number of huge shows he has headlined and money which has been generated, so yeah besides Brock, Kurt Angle was the only other alternative and I believe Taker may have suggested it at one point, you mentioned he was a tippy toppy main eventer but not for Taker, it could have sky rocketed Angle’s popularity but it was obviously a bigger deal when Lesnar ended it due to the length of the streak by then

 

[shaz619]

If there's one person in wrestling who has zero credibility in my eyes its Russo. He had the ability to come up with a couple of good ideas out of 50 or 60. But his idea of what wrestling was, was an insult to wrestling itself. His entire WCW run from 1999-2000 is a case-study in just that. One of the the worst wrestling TV shows in the history of the business. Just absolute dreck from top to bottom with zero redeeming qualities.

Don’t forget the damage he done in TNA as well, it is easier for him to come across all logical now. If there was a positive, it was that Vince could filter out the garbage and use the one or two good ideas he came up with. On his own though, he could never be trusted.

He’s the coaching version of Waqar Younis in wrestling [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

I've never seen Legends House but apparently Pat and Piper didn't say a word to each other ?

Something happened but we'll never know as both guys are gone.

It has been a while since I watched it, maybe the fellas in the thread can chime in but from memory, now that you mention it, I think there was a bit of tension between the two. Pat came out as gay on the show to, but am sure the others obviously knew about his antics from back in the day, it was a bit hilarious to see him get emotional about surviving the business when you’d be lucky if you survived Pat in those days.

You should watch it, arguably the best original on the Network

 

[shaz619]

Big Carpenter fan and I agree with you that Piper's casting in this movie was a stroke of genius. He wasn't Marlon Brando or anything but for this role he was perfect, because he could just be badass Rowdy Roddy Piper and still be entertaining as hell to watch,

I haven’t seen that movie yet either, one for the list.

Btw what you think of Punk’s return, with his injury and all should he still be champion? this feud with Mox should be mouthwatering given the history and also if they shoot from the hip and go below the belt.

In my view, Punk needs to chase for a bit.

Where is MJF?

 

[shokz1408]

Looking forward to clash at the castle weekend. Just brought a ticket to the undertaker deadman show the night before in cardiff.

 

[Markhor]

Don’t forget the damage he done in TNA as well, it is easier for him to come across all logical now. If there was a positive, it was that Vince could filter out the garbage and use the one or two good ideas he came up with. On his own though, he could never be trusted.

He’s the coaching version of Waqar Younis in wrestling [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

I agree Russo's booking is generally senseless and illogical - but that's why I was surprised at how well he booked the WCW Invasion in the interview !

I encourage seeing the shoot, but the way he laid it out:

- He would've had Hall "invade" Raw just like he invaded Nitro in 1996, coming through the crowd, to beg Vince for his job.

- Nash does the same thing the following week. Eventually Hogan joins them. Vince rebuffs them all, so they start causing havoc including destroying Shane (as opposed to making him the owner of WCW) and the top WWF talent (Austin/Rock/Angle).

- Eric Bischoff arrives, claiming only he can clean up the NWO, and that's when the likes of Flair, Sting, Goldberg and Booker join. However Bischoff turns and you have your WWF-WCW war. From there you can book the dream matches including Austin-Goldberg and Rock-Sting.

Instead they left so much money on the table with the Invasion angle. If they weren't willing to buy out the top stars' Turner contracts, they should've waited until they became available instead of introducing the hotchpotch of second tier guys who lacked credibility and name recognition.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Am sure the guest booker involved fantasy booking, Funk’s retirements have nothing to do with this, he didn’t kill his wife and kids and that guy who did is still worshipped. Funk practically could never have been a candidate, he was under ECW contract for most of his late career or working with outlaw promotions. We looking at Funk in his peak and prime form, he was a megastar in his own right / more then capable of carrying a huge burden on his shoulders.

But if you’re asking me who should have ended it then I agree that there is no one more deserving or worthy then Brock, it was a stroke of genius from Vince and how they have used Brock since, absolutely justifies it. He’s the wrestler of the decade 2010-2019, when you look at his match quality, number of huge shows he has headlined and money which has been generated, so yeah besides Brock, Kurt Angle was the only other alternative and I believe Taker may have suggested it at one point, you mentioned he was a tippy toppy main eventer but not for Taker, it could have sky rocketed Angle’s popularity but it was obviously a bigger deal when Lesnar ended it due to the length of the streak by then

I thought they were taking into consideration Terry Funk of that respective period.

I guess in that case, Andre The Giant of 70s could have been a good choice as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I agree Russo's booking is generally senseless and illogical - but that's why I was surprised at how well he booked the WCW Invasion in the interview !

I encourage seeing the shoot, but the way he laid it out:

- He would've had Hall "invade" Raw just like he invaded Nitro in 1996, coming through the crowd, to beg Vince for his job.

- Nash does the same thing the following week. Eventually Hogan joins them. Vince rebuffs them all, so they start causing havoc including destroying Shane (as opposed to making him the owner of WCW) and the top WWF talent (Austin/Rock/Angle).

- Eric Bischoff arrives, claiming only he can clean up the NWO, and that's when the likes of Flair, Sting, Goldberg and Booker join. However Bischoff turns and you have your WWF-WCW war. From there you can book the dream matches including Austin-Goldberg and Rock-Sting.

Instead they left so much money on the table with the Invasion angle. If they weren't willing to buy out the top stars' Turner contracts, they should've waited until they became available instead of introducing the hotchpotch of second tier guys who lacked credibility and name recognition.

If it were me, I'd just have a flurry of WCW invade the Raw during the mainevent multi tag team match, then WWF stars join in have a big brawl. Then they start clearing the ring. And in the end, Austin and Sting remain stood facing off each other, then gradually Rock, Taker, Kurt and Trips/Jericho stand up or enter the ring from the rubble to stand by Austin while Goldberg, DDP, Hogan, Flair join Sting.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I agree Russo's booking is generally senseless and illogical - but that's why I was surprised at how well he booked the WCW Invasion in the interview !

I encourage seeing the shoot, but the way he laid it out:

- He would've had Hall "invade" Raw just like he invaded Nitro in 1996, coming through the crowd, to beg Vince for his job.

- Nash does the same thing the following week. Eventually Hogan joins them. Vince rebuffs them all, so they start causing havoc including destroying Shane (as opposed to making him the owner of WCW) and the top WWF talent (Austin/Rock/Angle).

- Eric Bischoff arrives, claiming only he can clean up the NWO, and that's when the likes of Flair, Sting, Goldberg and Booker join. However Bischoff turns and you have your WWF-WCW war. From there you can book the dream matches including Austin-Goldberg and Rock-Sting.

Instead they left so much money on the table with the Invasion angle. If they weren't willing to buy out the top stars' Turner contracts, they should've waited until they became available instead of introducing the hotchpotch of second tier guys who lacked credibility and name recognition.

Again, coming up with a few ideas and booking logically week to week are two different things. For one thing, if this WCW invasion angle actually happened with all the top WCW stars it would have been the easiest storyline to book considering all the star power involved. Russo has one good idea there with Hall coming back through the crowd. But the rest does not excite me. I could probably come up with a better storyline than this in 30 minutes. And knowing Russo, if he was actually booking this angle he probably would have booked all these guys in 2 minute gimmick matches on RAW, half of which probably would have had some illogical swerve.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I haven’t seen that movie yet either, one for the list.

Btw what you think of Punk’s return, with his injury and all should he still be champion? this feud with Mox should be mouthwatering given the history and also if they shoot from the hip and go below the belt.

In my view, Punk needs to chase for a bit.

Where is MJF?

I dunno man. We had got such a long period of Punk chasing the belt. And when that moment finally came, it ended before it even started. Personally, I feel like alot of fans (myself included) were robbed of this Punk World title run. And as much as I have enjoyed Mox's run, I think I would like to see Punk as top dog and get a healthy run as champ. Besides the fact that its good for business i.e. having your biggest star as your World Champion, I feel like I want to see Punk in compelling feuds and wrestling against some very good wrestlers, which for me includes both the top guys and the rising stars. I think this is the time to get those fantasy match-ups in.

They gotta. I know alot of people don't like it when AEW references WWE, but thing is, AEW is not WCW. Bringing in history that wrestling fans in general tend to be aware of is smart because it doesn't just bring attention to AEW's product, but it also makes for compelling TV. And with these two involved you just know its going to be compelling as hell.

From what I've heard, Punk is not wrestling till All Out. So the only thing that they have to build this feud are promos. Which is good enough. Three weeks is a fair bit of time. But I sincerely hope that this is more Punk/Kingston or Punk/MJF than it is Punk/Hangman.

So from what I've read online over the last few months, absolutely no one in wrestling has seen of or heard about MJF. Nobody has even talked about him in AEW according to the dirtsheets. Which tells me that this is definitely a work and that they have something big in-plan. What that is? your guess is as good as mine. But all I can say is that, if they are willingly taking MJF: one of their biggest TV draws off TV, and letting all the momentum and attention just slide by, then there should be a very good reason for it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don’t forget the damage he done in TNA as well, it is easier for him to come across all logical now. If there was a positive, it was that Vince could filter out the garbage and use the one or two good ideas he came up with. On his own though, he could never be trusted.

He’s the coaching version of Waqar Younis in wrestling [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

His writing on TNA was just as awful no doubt, but there atleast there, there were guys like Cornette, Dutch Mantell, Jeff Jarrett who could balance his power from time to time. Plus, with Jarrett in-charge during those initial Spike TV years, there was alot of good wrestling on there too from 2005-09 between the nonsensical, overproduced angles and skits this idiot came up with. In WCW he basically had unchecked power in regards to writing the show and coming up with the creative direction of WCW because this conman had somehow convinced those dimwitted execs at TBS that he was the architect of the Attitude Era.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Seems like Jericho has been listening to the criticism. Because only that can explain him coming out on Dynamite in his Lionheart gear from the late 90s. He definitely looked more like a wrestler here than he has in years and it was probably the best match he has had in a while, but boy oh boy was he exposed here. Putting on the Walls of Jericho for 5 minutes may have popped alot of people in the arena but to me, who watches these shows without the picture-in-picture it just came off as an extended rest-spot.

There was some good wrestling here. And it had the feel of a main-event match. But there was a considerable amount of sloppiness here aswell that was simply hard to ignore. And if one thing is for certain its that Jericho simply cannot go out there and put on 20 minute clinics anymore. I can understand that considering he's 51 years old. But it doesn't seem to me like he has adapted his style of wrestling particularly well with his age. Austin despite unable to do 50% of the stuff he did before his neck injury could still put on classical main-event matches that had crowds jumping off their seats because he understood psychology really well. I once thought that Jericho was one of the smartest guys in the business but this current run of his and changed my opinion on many things about him.

Hearing he is wrestling Bryan at the PPV. Let's see if Bryan can get a good match out of him. Hopefully Jericho doesn't concuss him or break his nose.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I still don't understand why Punk was almost crying after he got injured. Like you're meant to be tough. A 2-3 month injury isn't something to cry over. Plus he was himself to blame for trying to do the buckshot lariat twice when it isn't the sort of move for his style that he can pull off at this stage in his career.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Saw Will Ospreay vs Takagi (4 or 5? they've had so many matches) and it didn't disappoint again. Seriously how good is Ospreay. His detractors call him a spot monkey and gymnast while his simps (Meltzer arrgghhh) go overboard. But he's got to be one of the best in the world atm (in terms of getting the crowd reaction and adaptability). He's gone up a few levels since moving to Japan full time.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Seems like Jericho has been listening to the criticism. Because only that can explain him coming out on Dynamite in his Lionheart gear from the late 90s. He definitely looked more like a wrestler here than he has in years and it was probably the best match he has had in a while, but boy oh boy was he exposed here. Putting on the Walls of Jericho for 5 minutes may have popped alot of people in the arena but to me, who watches these shows without the picture-in-picture it just came off as an extended rest-spot.

There was some good wrestling here. And it had the feel of a main-event match. But there was a considerable amount of sloppiness here aswell that was simply hard to ignore. And if one thing is for certain its that Jericho simply cannot go out there and put on 20 minute clinics anymore. I can understand that considering he's 51 years old. But it doesn't seem to me like he has adapted his style of wrestling particularly well with his age. Austin despite unable to do 50% of the stuff he did before his neck injury could still put on classical main-event matches that had crowds jumping off their seats because he understood psychology really well. I once thought that Jericho was one of the smartest guys in the business but this current run of his and changed my opinion on many things about him.

Hearing he is wrestling Bryan at the PPV. Let's see if Bryan can get a good match out of him. Hopefully Jericho doesn't concuss him or break his nose.

Jericho has been making me regret the 17$ I spent on buying his alpha club shirt around the time of Jericho vs Omega. He's been talking quite bullishly since 2020. Gets riled up by any sort of criticism. Needs to either call it a day or go part time now. Why is he still doing death matches without any good purpose.

On the other hand, I turned on twitter and found Natalya trying to seek attention desperately these days. Some of the wrestlers keep making a fool out of themselves by using social media.

 

[shaz619]

I dunno man. We had got such a long period of Punk chasing the belt. And when that moment finally came, it ended before it even started. Personally, I feel like alot of fans (myself included) were robbed of this Punk World title run. And as much as I have enjoyed Mox's run, I think I would like to see Punk as top dog and get a healthy run as champ. Besides the fact that its good for business i.e. having your biggest star as your World Champion, I feel like I want to see Punk in compelling feuds and wrestling against some very good wrestlers, which for me includes both the top guys and the rising stars. I think this is the time to get those fantasy match-ups in.

They gotta. I know alot of people don't like it when AEW references WWE, but thing is, AEW is not WCW. Bringing in history that wrestling fans in general tend to be aware of is smart because it doesn't just bring attention to AEW's product, but it also makes for compelling TV. And with these two involved you just know its going to be compelling as hell.

From what I've heard, Punk is not wrestling till All Out. So the only thing that they have to build this feud are promos. Which is good enough. Three weeks is a fair bit of time. But I sincerely hope that this is more Punk/Kingston or Punk/MJF than it is Punk/Hangman.

So from what I've read online over the last few months, absolutely no one in wrestling has seen of or heard about MJF. Nobody has even talked about him in AEW according to the dirtsheets. Which tells me that this is definitely a work and that they have something big in-plan. What that is? your guess is as good as mine. But all I can say is that, if they are willingly taking MJF: one of their biggest TV draws off TV, and letting all the momentum and attention just slide by, then there should be a very good reason for it.

There wasn’t much of a period with him really chasing though was it, he was mostly occupied in feuds with other guys. Didn’t he win the title in his first attempt? and make some unusual mistakes along the way. He can still be in the main event picture but given that he’s new to the championship level after a long time and also how I feel there is more money in a genuine baby face chase, I don’t think it would be a bad move at all, he’s too cold right now despite the big pop and his performance levels overall. It wouldn’t shock me if the fickle fans turn sour on his face run sooner rather then later (some are already calling him a completely past his prime jobber for a mistake or two which is harsh). He’s arguably the biggest baby face in wrestling so what’s with the cold title win when they could mean more. He can have fantasy matches with anyone or those compelling feuds, doesn’t need the belt for that, AEW need the belt on him, but I don’t like how it has been done.

He doesn’t need to work to build this up until the PPV but just a mic as always, this should be his most compelling feud since MJF and it sells itself given his history with Mox.

I don’t have good vibes with the MJF stuff, it has gone too cold. There would really need to be something massive to justify such a long period of silence

 

[shaz619]

I still don't understand why Punk was almost crying after he got injured. Like you're meant to be tough. A 2-3 month injury isn't something to cry over. Plus he was himself to blame for trying to do the buckshot lariat twice when it isn't the sort of move for his style that he can pull off at this stage in his career.

He got caught up in the garbage wrestling vibe, I don’t blame him, because while AEW can depict some excellent wrestling at times, given the lack of order it is also a breeding ground for the worst wrestling you will see. Maybe for a sec he thought he was in some bingo hall and attempted some moves he would never dream off, I will cut him some slack for it but in his own words they have garbage wrestling to if you like to see that and maybe be was pandering to the audience who like to jerk to mistakes like that.

He’s a modern era baby face, but more old school then most given the nature of his promos. If he is crying it’s not a bad thing, it shows a more modern human / whiny side which the fans can relate to, you know the men need to cry crowd, AEW is full of hipsters who like to take the moral high ground when they are the biggest yankee hypocrites. But to answer your question, in todays world it’s not a bad thing in wrestling terms, the so called “tough” guys are now seen as senile people by these little kids

 

[shaz619]

Seems like Jericho has been listening to the criticism. Because only that can explain him coming out on Dynamite in his Lionheart gear from the late 90s. He definitely looked more like a wrestler here than he has in years and it was probably the best match he has had in a while, but boy oh boy was he exposed here. Putting on the Walls of Jericho for 5 minutes may have popped alot of people in the arena but to me, who watches these shows without the picture-in-picture it just came off as an extended rest-spot.

There was some good wrestling here. And it had the feel of a main-event match. But there was a considerable amount of sloppiness here aswell that was simply hard to ignore. And if one thing is for certain its that Jericho simply cannot go out there and put on 20 minute clinics anymore. I can understand that considering he's 51 years old. But it doesn't seem to me like he has adapted his style of wrestling particularly well with his age. Austin despite unable to do 50% of the stuff he did before his neck injury could still put on classical main-event matches that had crowds jumping off their seats because he understood psychology really well. I once thought that Jericho was one of the smartest guys in the business but this current run of his and changed my opinion on many things about him.

Hearing he is wrestling Bryan at the PPV. Let's see if Bryan can get a good match out of him. Hopefully Jericho doesn't concuss him or break his nose.

Dave gave that match 4.75*

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He got caught up in the garbage wrestling vibe, I don’t blame him, because while AEW can depict some excellent wrestling at times, given the lack of order it is also a breeding ground for the worst wrestling you will see. Maybe for a sec he thought he was in some bingo hall and attempted some moves he would never dream off, I will cut him some slack for it but in his own words they have garbage wrestling to if you like to see that and maybe be was pandering to the audience who like to jerk to mistakes like that.

He’s a modern era baby face, but more old school then most given the nature of his promos. If he is crying it’s not a bad thing, it shows a more modern human / whiny side which the fans can relate to, you know the men need to cry crowd, AEW is full of hipsters who like to take the moral high ground when they are the biggest yankee hypocrites. But to answer your question, in todays world it’s not a bad thing in wrestling terms, the so called “tough” guys are now seen as senile people by these little kids

Don't think Punk's ever been a tough guy. Should learn from this experience and never do a flip or something like that. For me, I think the Mox-Punk feud should be a one match only right now, and a proper feud with a good strong story should be kept for the future. Maybe with Punk as a heel. I like the whiny heel Punk better than the face punk though.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Saw Will Ospreay vs Takagi (4 or 5? they've had so many matches) and it didn't disappoint again. Seriously how good is Ospreay. His detractors call him a spot monkey and gymnast while his simps (Meltzer arrgghhh) go overboard. But he's got to be one of the best in the world atm (in terms of getting the crowd reaction and adaptability). He's gone up a few levels since moving to Japan full time.

Need to catch up on some of these G1 matches. Heard that the former Bronson Reed, now known as JONAH beat Okada in one of the major upsets of the tournament.

As for Ospreay, he is incredible. He started out as a high-flyer and was pigeonholed into that Junior Heavyweight division. Since then, he has not only evolved as a wrestler by incorporating a variety of styles, but he has also put on some size and looks very much like a main-eventer now. And for a guy working in Japan, his promo skills are pretty good too. I don't know about others but based on what I've seen of his last 2+ years of work, I think he is comfortably one of the best wrestlers in the world.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Need to catch up on some of these G1 matches. Heard that the former Bronson Reed, now known as JONAH beat Okada in one of the major upsets of the tournament.

As for Ospreay, he is incredible. He started out as a high-flyer and was pigeonholed into that Junior Heavyweight division. Since then, he has not only evolved as a wrestler by incorporating a variety of styles, but he has also put on some size and looks very much like a main-eventer now. And for a guy working in Japan, his promo skills are pretty good too. I don't know about others but based on what I've seen of his last 2+ years of work, I think he is comfortably one of the best wrestlers in the world.

Think he was recommended by AJ initially then Tanahashi to the NJPW's higher ups.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Jericho has been making me regret the 17$ I spent on buying his alpha club shirt around the time of Jericho vs Omega. He's been talking quite bullishly since 2020. Gets riled up by any sort of criticism. Needs to either call it a day or go part time now. Why is he still doing death matches without any good purpose.

On the other hand, I turned on twitter and found Natalya trying to seek attention desperately these days. Some of the wrestlers keep making a fool out of themselves by using social media.

Because he wants to be accepted by the 'cool fans' as 'hip Chris Jericho'. More than anything I feel he is desperate for acceptance and deeply scared of being left behind by the times. Which is why he overcompensates and goes out of his way to get their attention. Whether its by doing deathmatches with guys like Nick Gage or by bringing back old personas like The Painmaker or Lionheart that only the hardcore fans will be well-aware of. It's sad really, because Jericho seems to have abandoned his instincts just to please specific niches of fans.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Because he wants to be accepted by the 'cool fans' as 'hip Chris Jericho'. More than anything I feel he is desperate for acceptance and deeply scared of being left behind by the times. Which is why he overcompensates and goes out of his way to get their attention. Whether its by doing deathmatches with guys like Nick Gage or by bringing back old personas like The Painmaker or Lionheart that only the hardcore fans will be well-aware of. It's sad really, because Jericho seems to have abandoned his instincts just to please specific niches of fans.

Don't know if Painmaker is even a gimmick. That was just facepaint for his feud with Okada and Tanahashi I guess.

For someone with a distinguished and respected career as his', he shouldn't care about what others say about him or how many stars he gets. Like that's a bit insecure of him to get validation from guys who don't know about business as much as he does.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Dave gave that match 4.75*

I'd be surprised if he hadn't given the Danielson-Garcia match from last week the same score...

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't know if Painmaker is even a gimmick. That was just facepaint for his feud with Okada and Tanahashi I guess.

For someone with a distinguished and respected career as his', he shouldn't care about what others say about him or how many stars he gets. Like that's a bit insecure of him to get validation from guys who don't know about business as much as he does.

It's a persona. And something that the New Japan fans will immediately pick up when they see it. It's also something that will get alot of traction on the internet. Which I am guessing is Jericho's target market now. He wants to be talked about on the internet.

It is funny though (as Cornette pointed out) that he chose to bring back not the Chris Jericho that drew millions of dollars and beat Austin and Rock in the same night, but instead the Chris Jericho that wrestled in grimy bingo halls for ECW or down in Mexico and Japan where his work was only seen by tape-traders or guys getting tapes from tape-traders.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

There wasn’t much of a period with him really chasing though was it, he was mostly occupied in feuds with other guys. Didn’t he win the title in his first attempt? and make some unusual mistakes along the way. He can still be in the main event picture but given that he’s new to the championship level after a long time and also how I feel there is more money in a genuine baby face chase, I don’t think it would be a bad move at all, he’s too cold right now despite the big pop and his performance levels overall. It wouldn’t shock me if the fickle fans turn sour on his face run sooner rather then later (some are already calling him a completely past his prime jobber for a mistake or two which is harsh). He’s arguably the biggest baby face in wrestling so what’s with the cold title win when they could mean more. He can have fantasy matches with anyone or those compelling feuds, doesn’t need the belt for that, AEW need the belt on him, but I don’t like how it has been done.

He doesn’t need to work to build this up until the PPV but just a mic as always, this should be his most compelling feud since MJF and it sells itself given his history with Mox.

I don’t have good vibes with the MJF stuff, it has gone too cold. There would really need to be something massive to justify such a long period of silence

I see what you mean. And come to think of it, you're right. But my question to you is how long would you want him to chase?

If he is chasing I would want him to win the belt back at Full Gear which is in November. Because I think at the end of the day, they have been teasing Punk winning the belt for a fair bit of time. I thought they told a compelling story of Punk struggling to shake off his ring rust when he was having trouble putting inexperienced/underneath guys away earlier in his run. So I would say that there was a build to him winning the belt. Even if that feud with Hangman was underwhelming. I also think that if you wait too long to put the belt on him, then there's always a big chance of his momentum getting derailed too.

I think the best thing they can come up with here is Mox beating Punk at the PPV. Punk losing in Chicago would be a big shocker because its not something most people will see coming. That way, this Mox title run wouldn't be rendered completely meaningless either and you've told the fans that Mox (like MJF) is one of the tippy top guys in this company, despite the presence of big stars like Punk and Danielson. Because regardless of what certain people may think of him fact is he is one of the most over guys in the company who has flown the flag for AEW as champion when they needed him most. And he has rarely missed a beat...he hasn't gotten injured, he's been on pretty much every Dynamite in the last 4 months or so and he has delivered a number of great matches with a variety of different opponents. For me he has been the best thing about this show in Punk's absence.

So Mox beats Punk at the PPV. That gives you the fuel to continue the feud into the next PPV. If you have to, make Punk go through that #1 contender's tournament that they do every year. Going through the tournament will show that Punk unquestionably deserves to be the No.1 contender. Because the babyface succeeding despite uphill odds is a tale as old as wrestling that writes itself.

Punk's run ultimately has to end at the hands of MJF. That's just how it has to be. How MJF will factor into all this, I don't know. Again, I don't want to say anything about it till I see what they have in store. Because I trust MJF and I trust that if he is involved in a worked shoot angle such as this one then both he and Tony (being the mark that he is) know that worked shoot angles have been done numerous times in wrestling. And very rarely have they delivered in the modern age because getting people to believe that something real is going on in pro-wrestling, in the age of information, is about as hard as pushing a 320-ton steamship over a hill.

 

[shaz619]

I see what you mean. And come to think of it, you're right. But my question to you is how long would you want him to chase?

If he is chasing I would want him to win the belt back at Full Gear which is in November. Because I think at the end of the day, they have been teasing Punk winning the belt for a fair bit of time. I thought they told a compelling story of Punk struggling to shake off his ring rust when he was having trouble putting inexperienced/underneath guys away earlier in his run. So I would say that there was a build to him winning the belt. Even if that feud with Hangman was underwhelming. I also think that if you wait too long to put the belt on him, then there's always a big chance of his momentum getting derailed too.

I think the best thing they can come up with here is Mox beating Punk at the PPV. Punk losing in Chicago would be a big shocker because its not something most people will see coming. That way, this Mox title run wouldn't be rendered completely meaningless either and you've told the fans that Mox (like MJF) is one of the tippy top guys in this company, despite the presence of big stars like Punk and Danielson. Because regardless of what certain people may think of him fact is he is one of the most over guys in the company who has flown the flag for AEW as champion when they needed him most. And he has rarely missed a beat...he hasn't gotten injured, he's been on pretty much every Dynamite in the last 4 months or so and he has delivered a number of great matches with a variety of different opponents. For me he has been the best thing about this show in Punk's absence.

So Mox beats Punk at the PPV. That gives you the fuel to continue the feud into the next PPV. If you have to, make Punk go through that #1 contender's tournament that they do every year. Going through the tournament will show that Punk unquestionably deserves to be the No.1 contender. Because the babyface succeeding despite uphill odds is a tale as old as wrestling that writes itself.

Punk's run ultimately has to end at the hands of MJF. That's just how it has to be. How MJF will factor into all this, I don't know. Again, I don't want to say anything about it till I see what they have in store. Because I trust MJF and I trust that if he is involved in a worked shoot angle such as this one then both he and Tony (being the mark that he is) know that worked shoot angles have been done numerous times in wrestling. And very rarely have they delivered in the modern age because getting people to believe that something real is going on in pro-wrestling, in the age of information, is about as hard as pushing a 320-ton steamship over a hill.

The way I’ve seen his return is it has revolved around whether he still had it, and the rust on that front came into that and Punk made it work with his ring smarts, does this guy still have world class pedigree? and with each passing feud the answer usually was, yes and maybe he wasn’t perfect but that’s the best thing he done was use that to generate extra old fashioned baby face sympathy, it has more about does he still belong imo rather then whether he can be champion again but with him having got his feet wet the murmurs began for the imminent title shot. And he’s CM Punk there are multiple ways they could have booked this really and while I get the AEW need, I wanted the pop to be similr in vein to Mankind 1999, Bryan WM 30 or even the Summer of Punk, there was no drama if you get where am coming from or like a magic moment, if we view it as a shoot yeah Punk being champion again is a great story isn’t it but in the kayfabe he didn’t overcome and be that all conquering babyface but with what happened to him with the injury and all that can still be booked, screw this guy left, right and centre, give him a sniff and then strike when the iron is hot, the long reign can come after that.

Here’s a left field choice, why doesn’t Punk win the undisputed title but in some overbooked scenario MJF is inserted into the match and steals the title from Punk (basically what you are suggesting but why not do this sooner). In one moment MJF is super hot and has the perfect pay off and we continue the best feud from the past 12 months, it may not need to happen now but sooner rather then later, Punk gets screwed, MJF is back and not just back but world champion, maybe Tony begged him to stay and made a deal he couldn’t refuse promising him the shot at his choosing etc

 

[shaz619]

It's a persona. And something that the New Japan fans will immediately pick up when they see it. It's also something that will get alot of traction on the internet. Which I am guessing is Jericho's target market now. He wants to be talked about on the internet.

It is funny though (as Cornette pointed out) that he chose to bring back not the Chris Jericho that drew millions of dollars and beat Austin and Rock in the same night, but instead the Chris Jericho that wrestled in grimy bingo halls for ECW or down in Mexico and Japan where his work was only seen by tape-traders or guys getting tapes from tape-traders.

I would consider the painmaker a gimmick, it was over in Japan, he sold out the Toyko Dome and done record sales there. Lionheart got Jericho hired in America, and at whatever level it was, it gained great international exposure especially his technical abilities, he quickly gained attention of dirt sheet readers and developed a cult following, you see that pop he got when his name appeared on the tiatron during his WWF debut in Chicago, a big chunk of those guys followed him closely in the 90’s and that same fanbase would drive the business into the 2000’s.

While I like seeing the lionheart you’re right about the part on his instincts, it was only recently on the true geordie where he mentioned he wouldn’t go back to one of his old gimmicks because its accepting you are no longer relevant etc but then again this may have just been a one night only thing. Too many gimmicks with Jericho as of late and too much change, hope he thinks through his next big move.

But one thing I totally agree with him on is his massive big finger to his critics, so what if he made a mistake here or there, sh!t happens. The guy has an exceptional body of work in the business and he got nothing to prove to no one, he has more than paid his dues and whether right or wrong, wrestling fans are horrible fickle people, this is Chris Jericho, he gave us so many legendary moments over the years, maybe it has come to an end who knows but he deserves some respect

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's a persona. And something that the New Japan fans will immediately pick up when they see it. It's also something that will get alot of traction on the internet. Which I am guessing is Jericho's target market now. He wants to be talked about on the internet.

It is funny though (as Cornette pointed out) that he chose to bring back not the Chris Jericho that drew millions of dollars and beat Austin and Rock in the same night, but instead the Chris Jericho that wrestled in grimy bingo halls for ECW or down in Mexico and Japan where his work was only seen by tape-traders or guys getting tapes from tape-traders.

Lionheart was brilliant though. But that was when he competed as a cruiserweight and did a lot of aerial maneuvers.
Plus don't think he can bring back the ayatolla of rock n rolla or suited up heel or the list gimmick as WWE would hold rights for them. Like TNA weren't allowing Matt to use his broken gimmick in ROH or WWE.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I would consider the painmaker a gimmick, it was over in Japan, he sold out the Toyko Dome and done record sales there. Lionheart got Jericho hired in America, and at whatever level it was, it gained great international exposure especially his technical abilities, he quickly gained attention of dirt sheet readers and developed a cult following, you see that pop he got when his name appeared on the tiatron during his WWF debut in Chicago, a big chunk of those guys followed him closely in the 90’s and that same fanbase would drive the business into the 2000’s.

While I like seeing the lionheart you’re right about the part on his instincts, it was only recently on the true geordie where he mentioned he wouldn’t go back to one of his old gimmicks because its accepting you are no longer relevant etc but then again this may have just been a one night only thing. Too many gimmicks with Jericho as of late and too much change, hope he thinks through his next big move.

But one thing I totally agree with him on is his massive big finger to his critics, so what if he made a mistake here or there, sh!t happens. The guy has an exceptional body of work in the business and he got nothing to prove to no one, he has more than paid his dues and whether right or wrong, wrestling fans are horrible fickle people, this is Chris Jericho, he gave us so many legendary moments over the years, maybe it has come to an end who knows but he deserves some respect

He sold out the Tokyo Dome with the Alpha Gimmick (built as Alpha vs Omega) not the painmaker. He only brought the painmaker when he started his feud with Okada. He said something like if you're the rainmaker, then i'm the painmaker. Maybe you can say the painmaker gimmick started during the end phase of his feud with Naito (which I believe is his best feud in NJPW while his match with Omega was his best match in NJPW).

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The way I’ve seen his return is it has revolved around whether he still had it, and the rust on that front came into that and Punk made it work with his ring smarts, does this guy still have world class pedigree? and with each passing feud the answer usually was, yes and maybe he wasn’t perfect but that’s the best thing he done was use that to generate extra old fashioned baby face sympathy, it has more about does he still belong imo rather then whether he can be champion again but with him having got his feet wet the murmurs began for the imminent title shot. And he’s CM Punk there are multiple ways they could have booked this really and while I get the AEW need, I wanted the pop to be similr in vein to Mankind 1999, Bryan WM 30 or even the Summer of Punk, there was no drama if you get where am coming from or like a magic moment, if we view it as a shoot yeah Punk being champion again is a great story isn’t it but in the kayfabe he didn’t overcome and be that all conquering babyface but with what happened to him with the injury and all that can still be booked, screw this guy left, right and centre, give him a sniff and then strike when the iron is hot, the long reign can come after that.

Here’s a left field choice, why doesn’t Punk win the undisputed title but in some overbooked scenario MJF is inserted into the match and steals the title from Punk (basically what you are suggesting but why not do this sooner). In one moment MJF is super hot and has the perfect pay off and we continue the best feud from the past 12 months, it may not need to happen now but sooner rather then later, Punk gets screwed, MJF is back and not just back but world champion, maybe Tony begged him to stay and made a deal he couldn’t refuse promising him the shot at his choosing etc

When it comes to giving Punk the title, I think the story has to be top notch. Should be something like when everyone in the crowd desperately wants him to get that belt while at the same time it looks unlikely that he can win. Such angle would be extremely hard to book though but it would be one that should do him justice.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I would consider the painmaker a gimmick, it was over in Japan, he sold out the Toyko Dome and done record sales there. Lionheart got Jericho hired in America, and at whatever level it was, it gained great international exposure especially his technical abilities, he quickly gained attention of dirt sheet readers and developed a cult following, you see that pop he got when his name appeared on the tiatron during his WWF debut in Chicago, a big chunk of those guys followed him closely in the 90’s and that same fanbase would drive the business into the 2000’s.

While I like seeing the lionheart you’re right about the part on his instincts, it was only recently on the true geordie where he mentioned he wouldn’t go back to one of his old gimmicks because its accepting you are no longer relevant etc but then again this may have just been a one night only thing. Too many gimmicks with Jericho as of late and too much change, hope he thinks through his next big move.

But one thing I totally agree with him on is his massive big finger to his critics, so what if he made a mistake here or there, sh!t happens. The guy has an exceptional body of work in the business and he got nothing to prove to no one, he has more than paid his dues and whether right or wrong, wrestling fans are horrible fickle people, this is Chris Jericho, he gave us so many legendary moments over the years, maybe it has come to an end who knows but he deserves some respect

Without a doubt he has. He will go down in history as one of the GOAT just based on his body of work before he even arrived in AEW. But at the same time, I don't think that the work that he is doing currently can simply be forgotten. It is going to diminish his legacy. Especially when people look back on it and put it in contrast with the rest of his work...10, 15, 20 years from now.

Jericho used to be one of my favorite wrestlers growing up which is why this steady decline has been even more disappointing for me to see than it would be for any other wrestling fan. Here was a guy who was uniformly accepted as one of the best minds in the business. And now it just seems like he has just lost his mind. Which more than anything, is just sad to see.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Lionheart was brilliant though. But that was when he competed as a cruiserweight and did a lot of aerial maneuvers.
Plus don't think he can bring back the ayatolla of rock n rolla or suited up heel or the list gimmick as WWE would hold rights for them. Like TNA weren't allowing Matt to use his broken gimmick in ROH or WWE.

He can if he wants to. I don't think WWE can copyright gimmicks like that. They may have the name but Jericho can still turn up in a suit or a wacky ponytail if he wants to. Matt Hardy brought back his Broken gimmick in WWE and AEW too.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The way I’ve seen his return is it has revolved around whether he still had it, and the rust on that front came into that and Punk made it work with his ring smarts, does this guy still have world class pedigree? and with each passing feud the answer usually was, yes and maybe he wasn’t perfect but that’s the best thing he done was use that to generate extra old fashioned baby face sympathy, it has more about does he still belong imo rather then whether he can be champion again but with him having got his feet wet the murmurs began for the imminent title shot. And he’s CM Punk there are multiple ways they could have booked this really and while I get the AEW need, I wanted the pop to be similr in vein to Mankind 1999, Bryan WM 30 or even the Summer of Punk, there was no drama if you get where am coming from or like a magic moment, if we view it as a shoot yeah Punk being champion again is a great story isn’t it but in the kayfabe he didn’t overcome and be that all conquering babyface but with what happened to him with the injury and all that can still be booked, screw this guy left, right and centre, give him a sniff and then strike when the iron is hot, the long reign can come after that.

Here’s a left field choice, why doesn’t Punk win the undisputed title but in some overbooked scenario MJF is inserted into the match and steals the title from Punk (basically what you are suggesting but why not do this sooner). In one moment MJF is super hot and has the perfect pay off and we continue the best feud from the past 12 months, it may not need to happen now but sooner rather then later, Punk gets screwed, MJF is back and not just back but world champion, maybe Tony begged him to stay and made a deal he couldn’t refuse promising him the shot at his choosing etc

That's actually a pretty great idea. And I wouldn't mind seeing it. In certain ways it would be perfect because not only is it a swerve that's logical but it also has the element of surprise. MJF is not fresh in the minds of most fans but if he comes back, they will lose their minds. The heat that MJF will get in Chicago will also be nuclear. I do think that Tony will have to distance himself from any on-screen stuff if it goes down like this. But your idea checks out alot of boxes.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He can if he wants to. I don't think WWE can copyright gimmicks like that. They may have the name but Jericho can still turn up in a suit or a wacky ponytail if he wants to. Matt Hardy brought back his Broken gimmick in WWE and AEW too.

Matt had a lengthy battle with TNA execs over the copyrights of broken gimmick. They were crashing down so they decided to give up the rights and Matt bought it. To avoid that issue for happening again, he decided to bring Woken Matt instead of Broken to WWE. Now he owns the gimmick so he can take it everywhere. Similarly Jericho owns the name Jericho, Dwayne The Rock. Austin changed his legal name from Steve Anderson to Steve Austin. Ryback did that as well.

Tbh he would look quite stupid if he comes out with a ponytail at this age. He would look like Kid Rock. Although the catchphrases, the wrestling and promo style and mannerisms could work well.
Think either the short hair version or the Alpha gimmick with combed back hair would work well now.

I'd like to see him start doing the code breaker again. Judas Effect doesn't really work for me. It's difficult really to sell a back elbow as a finisher. Liontamer is much better than Walls of Jericho but it's dangerous and can't be applied on every wrestler depending on their height and stuff. Think he broke Malenko's back with Liontamer once.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Without a doubt he has. He will go down in history as one of the GOAT just based on his body of work before he even arrived in AEW. But at the same time, I don't think that the work that he is doing currently can simply be forgotten. It is going to diminish his legacy. Especially when people look back on it and put it in contrast with the rest of his work...10, 15, 20 years from now.

Jericho used to be one of my favorite wrestlers growing up which is why this steady decline has been even more disappointing for me to see than it would be for any other wrestling fan. Here was a guy who was uniformly accepted as one of the best minds in the business. And now it just seems like he has just lost his mind. Which more than anything, is just sad to see.

When wrestlers start winding up and their real personality starts showing, it's most often disappointing. A lot of wrestlers are pretty weird persons. Heard Jericho supported the Trump's protest in the capitol or something.

A lot of people say pretty bad things about Allan Jones the person instead of AJ Styles. Don't know how accurate that is.

There's a lot of awful reports about Cornette as well ranging from weird sexual harassment/behaviors to being openly islamophobic and stuff. Although don't think it's a surprise regarding Cornette. But hardline pro WWE/Anti AEW regard him as something like the best voice in wrestling and stuff.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

When wrestlers start winding up and their real personality starts showing, it's most often disappointing. A lot of wrestlers are pretty weird persons. Heard Jericho supported the Trump's protest in the capitol or something.

A lot of people say pretty bad things about Allan Jones the person instead of AJ Styles. Don't know how accurate that is.

There's a lot of awful reports about Cornette as well ranging from weird sexual harassment/behaviors to being openly islamophobic and stuff. Although don't think it's a surprise regarding Cornette. But hardline pro WWE/Anti AEW regard him as something like the best voice in wrestling and stuff.

I think all three are different cases. Jericho was a seemingly normal person until a few years ago when he outed himself as a Trump supporter.

As for AJ, he seems like just another guy with a conservative upbringing. People make fun of him because he's a flat-earther lol. But I haven't heard anything negative about him.

I don't know about the harassment stuff. I haven't read much into that. I heard about it in passing years ago. As far as being a racist/Islamophobe is concerned, I personally think he's just a little ignorant as most people from his generation are. He may be a racist and an Islamophobe for all I know, but I haven't gotten that feeling listening to his podcast. Politically he's liberal and till a couple of years ago his political rants used to be very entertaining too. Since Trump has been voted out of office though, his political rants have died down considerably.

Yeah as far as commentators on wrestling are concerned he is by far the most entertaining. You don't always have to agree with him to recognize that he looks at wrestling from a logical stand-point and whether it makes sense or not. Sometimes his opinions can feel out of touch, but in most cases its just AEW and WWE fans being little internet trolls who can't handle something/someone they like being insulted.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Matt had a lengthy battle with TNA execs over the copyrights of broken gimmick. They were crashing down so they decided to give up the rights and Matt bought it. To avoid that issue for happening again, he decided to bring Woken Matt instead of Broken to WWE. Now he owns the gimmick so he can take it everywhere. Similarly Jericho owns the name Jericho, Dwayne The Rock. Austin changed his legal name from Steve Anderson to Steve Austin. Ryback did that as well.

Tbh he would look quite stupid if he comes out with a ponytail at this age. He would look like Kid Rock. Although the catchphrases, the wrestling and promo style and mannerisms could work well.
Think either the short hair version or the Alpha gimmick with combed back hair would work well now.

I'd like to see him start doing the code breaker again. Judas Effect doesn't really work for me. It's difficult really to sell a back elbow as a finisher. Liontamer is much better than Walls of Jericho but it's dangerous and can't be applied on every wrestler depending on their height and stuff. Think he broke Malenko's back with Liontamer once.

Obviously he doesn't have to reference the name or call himself Y2J to bring the gimmick back for one night. But as shaz noted and Jericho himself admitted, bringing back old gimmicks is another way of telling the fans that you're just not as relevant as you used to be in 2017 or 1995 or 2001.

I don't think Jericho can do the codebreaker as well anymore. He has thankfully dropped alot of weight but I still haven't see him execute the Codebreaker perfectly in a long time.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think all three are different cases. Jericho was a seemingly normal person until a few years ago when he outed himself as a Trump supporter.

As for AJ, he seems like just another guy with a conservative upbringing. People make fun of him because he's a flat-earther lol. But I haven't heard anything negative about him.

I don't know about the harassment stuff. I haven't read much into that. I heard about it in passing years ago. As far as being a racist/Islamophobe is concerned, I personally think he's just a little ignorant as most people from his generation are. He may be a racist and an Islamophobe for all I know, but I haven't gotten that feeling listening to his podcast. Politically he's liberal and till a couple of years ago his political rants used to be very entertaining too. Since Trump has been voted out of office though, his political rants have died down considerably.

Yeah as far as commentators on wrestling are concerned he is by far the most entertaining. You don't always have to agree with him to recognize that he looks at wrestling from a logical stand-point and whether it makes sense or not. Sometimes his opinions can feel out of touch, but in most cases its just AEW and WWE fans being little internet trolls who can't handle something/someone they like being insulted.

Think Cornette had his best time during early 90s and then in Smoky Valley Wrestling. Cornette has no place for comedy wrestling though. IMO when comedy wrestling done to a certain level for some amount of time, it can be really funny. But seriously taking Canadian Destroyers from a doll is extremely messed up ess.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think all three are different cases. Jericho was a seemingly normal person until a few years ago when he outed himself as a Trump supporter.

As for AJ, he seems like just another guy with a conservative upbringing. People make fun of him because he's a flat-earther lol. But I haven't heard anything negative about him.

I don't know about the harassment stuff. I haven't read much into that. I heard about it in passing years ago. As far as being a racist/Islamophobe is concerned, I personally think he's just a little ignorant as most people from his generation are. He may be a racist and an Islamophobe for all I know, but I haven't gotten that feeling listening to his podcast. Politically he's liberal and till a couple of years ago his political rants used to be very entertaining too. Since Trump has been voted out of office though, his political rants have died down considerably.

Yeah as far as commentators on wrestling are concerned he is by far the most entertaining. You don't always have to agree with him to recognize that he looks at wrestling from a logical stand-point and whether it makes sense or not. Sometimes his opinions can feel out of touch, but in most cases its just AEW and WWE fans being little internet trolls who can't handle something/someone they like being insulted.

I think being a supporter for a certain politician is one thing but being an ardent follower is another.

 

[shaz619]

I think being a supporter for a certain politician is one thing but being an ardent follower is another.

Wrestling and politics should be kept apart, a big chunk of those we like probably have polar opposite views

 

[shaz619]

Without a doubt he has. He will go down in history as one of the GOAT just based on his body of work before he even arrived in AEW. But at the same time, I don't think that the work that he is doing currently can simply be forgotten. It is going to diminish his legacy. Especially when people look back on it and put it in contrast with the rest of his work...10, 15, 20 years from now.

Jericho used to be one of my favorite wrestlers growing up which is why this steady decline has been even more disappointing for me to see than it would be for any other wrestling fan. Here was a guy who was uniformly accepted as one of the best minds in the business. And now it just seems like he has just lost his mind. Which more than anything, is just sad to see.

Those who have been watching wrestling in the last 3 years only or so, off course that crowd wont forget and are unfamiliar with his overa resume. Jericho hasn’t exactly reached Funk levels yet and Funk is still revered among those who watched him in his prime, his best work is up there with both Flair and Steamboat

For me, Jericho can have maybe another 100 bad matches or so, he will still be one of the GOAT’s. I can’t really understand how your efforts past your peak erases everything you do. It’s like the same social media hipsters who were crapping on Shawn for that saudi match even though he performed better then the rest and carried a bunch of old yellers

It’s like sh!ting on Muhammad Ali for the final years of his career, hipster smarks are ridiculous! it is mostly the AEW lot on social media but the thing is the sort of stuff he has been doing, is over with that live crowd anyway and certain ‘journalists’ wink wink!

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Those who have been watching wrestling in the last 3 years only or so, off course that crowd wont forget and are unfamiliar with his overa resume. Jericho hasn’t exactly reached Funk levels yet and Funk is still revered among those who watched him in his prime, his best work is up there with both Flair and Steamboat

For me, Jericho can have maybe another 100 bad matches or so, he will still be one of the GOAT’s. I can’t really understand how your efforts past your peak erases everything you do. It’s like the same social media hipsters who were crapping on Shawn for that saudi match even though he performed better then the rest and carried a bunch of old yellers

It’s like sh!ting on Muhammad Ali for the final years of his career, hipster smarks are ridiculous! it is mostly the AEW lot on social media but the thing is the sort of stuff he has been doing, is over with that live crowd anyway and certain ‘journalists’ wink wink!

Hahah. Fair enough.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Wrestling and politics should be kept apart, a big chunk of those we like probably have polar opposite views

Yes i guess.

 

[shaz619]

Hahah. Fair enough.

I haven’t watched AEW yet (more reason now due to Like Mussolini and Kennedy!! )

But, Punk / Mox is booked for next week, am surprised to say the least because this is a big money PPV match / special event even though AEW has a habit of throwing these away on regular Dynamite shows. However, I will hold onto that thought, because if it’s on TV, I hope for some serious drama maybe, hopefully involving MJF, what do you think?

 

[shaz619]

Yes i guess.

I’d like to think after their travels these people are the best versions of themselves despite their views, but this is entertainment, am sure there are others in Hollywood etc or something else who we may like but they have certain views. What we want as fans is excellent wrestling, and it’s an escapism, AJ has his views, heck so did Shawn and many others, the latter had serious problems backstage to but no matter what he was feeling or what he was going through or what he was on lol he gave it everything in the ring and that’s what matters, the wrestlers always have a special bond with the fans regardless like no other because we support them irrespective of x or y or z, can’t say the same in other fields

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I’d like to think after their travels these people are the best versions of themselves despite their views, but this is entertainment, am sure there are others in Hollywood etc or something else who we may like but they have certain views. What we want as fans is excellent wrestling, and it’s an escapism, AJ has his views, heck so did Shawn and many others, the latter had serious problems backstage to but no matter what he was feeling or what he was going through or what he was on lol he gave it everything in the ring and that’s what matters, the wrestlers always have a special bond with the fans regardless like no other because we support them irrespective of x or y or z, can’t say the same in other fields

But the problems of The Kliq, Hogan, Warrior etc were well known. Y2J always talked sense and seemed like someone who won't really speak or do something without thinking twice. That has changed drastically in last few years.

 

[shaz619]

Punk as a baby face on the mic is just absolute gold, it’s a lot tougher cutting pure baby face promos and making people like you but my god, every time he has that mic the baby’s get thrown in the air, he can get a crowd to chant for him even when they didn’t want to. That promo this week on Dynamite is baby face 101 and I said it before but since his return, he is like a modern era Dusty Rhodes on the mic, every little detail from his body language, facial expression and use of language is just outstanding.

I also watched the 2 out of 3 falls match between Bryan and Garcia, it was fantastic. We can debate the finishes or booking but these matches with Bryan are doing wonders for Garcia’s in-ring development, he can work and the technique is great, he is much better then the overhyped Zack Sabre Jnr, needs to continue to work with seasoned vets and work on his character, but to hang in there with Bryan you have to give credit

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] What do you guys think about Cody's push with Trips in charge now once he inevitably returns? Vince was definitely red hot on him. With Cody and Trip's history, will his push get derailed? He was being presented like an absolute megastar before he got injured. The pyro, elaborate entrance, etc, he was pretty much the number two in Vince's eyes behind Roman.

How will Trips view him? Will Hunter's ego end up burying Cody?

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] What do you guys think about Cody's push with Trips in charge now once he inevitably returns? Vince was definitely red hot on him. With Cody and Trip's history, will his push get derailed? He was being presented like an absolute megastar before he got injured. The pyro, elaborate entrance, etc, he was pretty much the number two in Vince's eyes behind Roman.

How will Trips view him? Will Hunter's ego end up burying Cody?

Hunter is an extremely petty guy and if there is a saving grace for Cody it’s that he is happy to kiss Hunter’s behind now so that may be good news for him. Hunter has always been jealous of Cody and hijacked his push repeatedly in his first run and then when Cody left, he could tell us the truth.

In any case whether it’s a shoot or kayfabe, I hope Hunter does bury Cody on TV because he will get more over then ever before.

But my gut says he could pick up where he left, given how much Vince has invested in Cody. Hunter has influence but Stephanie has him by the cajonas so hopefully she would veto anything seriously stupid.

However, I think there is money in an Cody v the Authority oriented feud. If Hunter could still work it would have been great. But they could still book the angle

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Hunter is an extremely petty guy and if there is a saving grace for Cody it’s that he is happy to kiss Hunter’s behind now so that may be good news for him. Hunter has always been jealous of Cody and hijacked his push repeatedly in his first run and then when Cody left, he could tell us the truth.

In any case whether it’s a shoot or kayfabe, I hope Hunter does bury Cody on TV because he will get more over then ever before.

But my gut says he could pick up where he left, given how much Vince has invested in Cody. Hunter has influence but Stephanie has him by the cajonas so hopefully she would veto anything seriously stupid.

However, I think there is money in an Cody v the Authority oriented feud. If Hunter could still work it would have been great. But they could still book the angle

I think it would be a big waste to hold Cody back from getting to the main event picture once he returns. He is probably one step ahead of Drew as the number 2 guy in WWE. Plus the Authority angle has been overdone now.

I think with Trips now being in power that would actually affect his pocket (considering Steph is the co CEO), it's going to become a bit difficult for him to intentionally bury people who are visibly "good for business". Previously Trips could bury anyone because it was Vince whose pocket would get affected eventually not his.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Punk as a baby face on the mic is just absolute gold, it’s a lot tougher cutting pure baby face promos and making people like you but my god, every time he has that mic the baby’s get thrown in the air, he can get a crowd to chant for him even when they didn’t want to. That promo this week on Dynamite is baby face 101 and I said it before but since his return, he is like a modern era Dusty Rhodes on the mic, every little detail from his body language, facial expression and use of language is just outstanding.

I also watched the 2 out of 3 falls match between Bryan and Garcia, it was fantastic. We can debate the finishes or booking but these matches with Bryan are doing wonders for Garcia’s in-ring development, he can work and the technique is great, he is much better then the overhyped Zack Sabre Jnr, needs to continue to work with seasoned vets and work on his character, but to hang in there with Bryan you have to give credit

Unpopular opinion: I think Jeff Hardy even without possessing any noticeable mic skills is more charismatic than both Randy and Punk. The guy hasn't ever needed to cut promos to get the audience behind him or get them fired up. It's sad what he's done time and again to himself. If it wasn't for drugs, he could well have been among the top brass of his generation alongside Cena, Randy, Punk, Edge, AJ etc.

 

[shaz619]

Unpopular opinion: I think Jeff Hardy even without possessing any noticeable mic skills is more charismatic than both Randy and Punk. The guy hasn't ever needed to cut promos to get the audience behind him or get them fired up. It's sad what he's done time and again to himself. If it wasn't for drugs, he could well have been among the top brass of his generation alongside Cena, Randy, Punk, Edge, AJ etc.

Comparisons are subjective but the opinion itself is not too unpopular, guys like Jeff and Rey were extremely over as baby faces and their merch etc was up there with Cena consistently, Rey in his later years, lacked some discipline hence the injuries and lack of consistent main event roles and Jeff it was personal issues, Rey since his return has reinvented himself and dare I say is almost as good as his peak given how he takes better care of his body. But these two can sometimes be overlooked when it comes to their peak drawing power and popularity given their in-ring skills and awareness for their individual presentation. Imagine X-Division AJ during that time, he’d be just as popular. That’s the special thing about AJ, his versatility, he would be a top guy any where and in any modern era.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Comparisons are subjective but the opinion itself is not too unpopular, guys like Jeff and Rey were extremely over as baby faces and their merch etc was up there with Cena consistently, Rey in his later years, lacked some discipline hence the injuries and lack of consistent main event roles and Jeff it was personal issues, Rey since his return has reinvented himself and dare I say is almost as good as his peak given how he takes better care of his body. But these two can sometimes be overlooked when it comes to their peak drawing power and popularity given their in-ring skills and awareness for their individual presentation. Imagine X-Division AJ during that time, he’d be just as popular. That’s the special thing about AJ, his versatility, he would be a top guy any where and in any modern era.

Rey has been an anomaly throughout his career. No luchador has had more success than him especially in USA. No other luchador has been as consistent in putting consistently great matches for over 20 years as Rey has. The guy can still hang with the guys over 25 years younger than him and dare I say does better than them. He is approaching 50 yet has shown no signs of slowing down. Although he has been treated like a jobber in WWE since his return.

I think the presentation of AJ that he developed after leaving TNA and perfected over in NJPW made him a guy that WWE could seriously look as the top guy. I don't think WWE would have seen him anything more than a mid carder during his X Division days although I prefer that AJ over the current one. The unhinged AJ was the best AJ for me (not saying the current one is bad).

Jeff's body has deteriorated quickly due to the damage he has taken on his body through the years due to his wrestling style. It's surprising that he is still wrestling after 25 years. But I think Jeff definitely knows how to wrestle a technical match, it's just that he has never really chosen to do it. In his home promotion OMEGA, there are clips of Jeff wrestling technical matches, Matt doing a freakin' 450 splash and stuff. Think Jeff has something you can't really explain that makes you gravitate towards him. I have rarely ever seen crowd not reacting to Jeff even when he is doing basic moves.

I think Orton is one guy who knows the business inside out. He would never do anything extra based on occasion. In a way he's like Brock, he knows when to go all out and when to restrain himself. A very intellectual dude IMO. Plus the way he has consistently portrayed his character with minor details has been perfect. One of the most reliable guys of pro wrestling.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I haven’t watched AEW yet (more reason now due to Like Mussolini and Kennedy!! )

But, Punk / Mox is booked for next week, am surprised to say the least because this is a big money PPV match / special event even though AEW has a habit of throwing these away on regular Dynamite shows. However, I will hold onto that thought, because if it’s on TV, I hope for some serious drama maybe, hopefully involving MJF, what do you think?

I think your MJF theory might just end up coming true. But as much as I am excited for this match, I can't help but feel that this change is driven by desperation in what seems to be a really uncertain time for AEW. Their parent company Warner Discovery is putting the axe to their newly acquired subsidiaries and I don't even think its too far-fetched to imagine a future where AEW might not even have a TV deal anymore and get cancelled.

In the context of that, I think they might try to hotshot this match for ratings and give us a non-finish. But to compensate for that non-finish they might bring MJF back and figure him into this situation somehow. Then you could have Mox v Punk proper at the PPV with MJF in the Casino Ladder Match. Or You could Punk v Mox v MJF.

On top of that, the backstage stuff in AEW seems to be getting alot of traction too. Apparently Punk calling Page out last night was not planned and a 'receipt' for some off the cuff and unplanned remarks that Page made in a promo during their feud. I remember us and alot of others talking about how weird and disjointed that feud felt. Especially with the promos. It didn't seem like Page was the babyface champion going into that match. Well apparently that's how he really felt. Some people are even saying that after all that transpired Punk said he would never job to Page.

So seems like divisions and camps are already starting to form in AEW.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Punk as a baby face on the mic is just absolute gold, it’s a lot tougher cutting pure baby face promos and making people like you but my god, every time he has that mic the baby’s get thrown in the air, he can get a crowd to chant for him even when they didn’t want to. That promo this week on Dynamite is baby face 101 and I said it before but since his return, he is like a modern era Dusty Rhodes on the mic, every little detail from his body language, facial expression and use of language is just outstanding.

I also watched the 2 out of 3 falls match between Bryan and Garcia, it was fantastic. We can debate the finishes or booking but these matches with Bryan are doing wonders for Garcia’s in-ring development, he can work and the technique is great, he is much better then the overhyped Zack Sabre Jnr, needs to continue to work with seasoned vets and work on his character, but to hang in there with Bryan you have to give credit

This episode of Dynamite might have been one of the best in months, Punk was absolutely incredible here. The way he mocked Mox...I burst out laughing numerous times. From 'he's always the third best member in his group' to 'I worry that if I touch you, you might bleed all over me' and making snow-angels when Mox made his usually slow entry through the crowd. Mox was not on Punk's level but he was very close. His exuded an amazing level of intensity and made some very pointed comments too that made me laugh. He also made me believe that he could not just go toe to toe with Punk but possibly beat him too. And at the end, I that's what both these guys were supposed to do: make us believe that they want to beat the hell out of each other and either guy could win.

I concur. The 2/3 falls match was outstanding. I loved it. This was a star-making turn for Garcia in the same way that match against Mox was a game-changer for Yuta. And on both occasions, 85% of the credit goes to the experienced vets. Without Danielson this is not an outstanding wrestling match. Without him, Garcia doesn't even get over the way he got over in this match. Because Danielson made sure to showcase the best aspects of wrestling ability.

I can seem Garcia joining Danielson's group. He would fit in well into a group of 'violent pro-wrestlers'. But this Jericho-Blackpool Combat Club feud needs to end. It's gone on way too long. Just do a 5 on 5 Elimination and get it over with.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] What do you guys think about Cody's push with Trips in charge now once he inevitably returns? Vince was definitely red hot on him. With Cody and Trip's history, will his push get derailed? He was being presented like an absolute megastar before he got injured. The pyro, elaborate entrance, etc, he was pretty much the number two in Vince's eyes behind Roman.

How will Trips view him? Will Hunter's ego end up burying Cody?

I think that there was a time when Hunter thought that Cody was nothing more than a midcarder. But since then, Cody has gone on and gotten over on his own...as a main-eventer. And since coming back, the reactions that he has gotten and the way he has performed have shown that he is not only a main-eventer but also potentially one of the biggest stars in wrestling today. I think HHH is smart enough to see that. I believe that his opinion on Cody has changed and that he will push Cody at the top when he comes back.

Say what you will about Hunter but his booking and creative vision feels intuned with the modern audience and also has logic, common sense and plausibility to it.

So yeah, I definitely see Cody being pushed big when he returns and I see the WWE product drastically improving in quality as well...just as it has in the last week or two.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Punk as a baby face on the mic is just absolute gold, it’s a lot tougher cutting pure baby face promos and making people like you but my god, every time he has that mic the baby’s get thrown in the air, he can get a crowd to chant for him even when they didn’t want to. That promo this week on Dynamite is baby face 101 and I said it before but since his return, he is like a modern era Dusty Rhodes on the mic, every little detail from his body language, facial expression and use of language is just outstanding.

I also watched the 2 out of 3 falls match between Bryan and Garcia, it was fantastic. We can debate the finishes or booking but these matches with Bryan are doing wonders for Garcia’s in-ring development, he can work and the technique is great, he is much better then the overhyped Zack Sabre Jnr, needs to continue to work with seasoned vets and work on his character, but to hang in there with Bryan you have to give credit

After re-reading my last post I feel like I might have downplayed Garcia's performance in this match so I'm just gonna concur (again) with your last line. You have to give the kid credit for hanging and having a great 26 minute match with Bryan Danielson. Yeah Bryan had alot to do with him getting over by the end of the match but at the end of the day Garcia did wrestle and without him, Danielson doesn't have this match either.

 

[shaz619]

After re-reading my last post I feel like I might have downplayed Garcia's performance in this match so I'm just gonna concur (again) with your last line. You have to give the kid credit for hanging and having a great 26 minute match with Bryan Danielson. Yeah Bryan had alot to do with him getting over by the end of the match but at the end of the day Garcia did wrestle and without him, Danielson doesn't have this match either.

You’re right though, you have to give Bryan massive props, he belongs on the mount rushmore of wrestling, he consistently had had incredible matches with all sorts of opponents in varying scenario’s and to top of it of his character work has been outstanding to and developed nicely over the years. Garcia wont have this match with Yuta due to his inexperience but he played his part and his technique is great, you need to have a good IQ to follow up on the spots your opponent is calling to and Garcia has the tools to follow through with a psychological match, it is early but be reminds me a little of Dean Malenko. He’s only 23 and will get even better down the line when it comes to his selling and story telling which will allow him to utilise fewer moves and take fewer bumps which are hard. There was a night and day difference between this match and the pure one he had with Yuta but having matches like these with Bryan will help him with layout of his matches in the future, and I think his style will work much better at this time as a baby face. Again those head spots were not needed but Bryan seems to be happy getting dropped like that. My favourite spot in the match was Bryan missing with the running knee off the apron and then Garcia moving out the way to give a back body drop on the outside

 

[shaz619]

I think that there was a time when Hunter thought that Cody was nothing more than a midcarder. But since then, Cody has gone on and gotten over on his own...as a main-eventer. And since coming back, the reactions that he has gotten and the way he has performed have shown that he is not only a main-eventer but also potentially one of the biggest stars in wrestling today. I think HHH is smart enough to see that. I believe that his opinion on Cody has changed and that he will push Cody at the top when he comes back.

Say what you will about Hunter but his booking and creative vision feels intuned with the modern audience and also has logic, common sense and plausibility to it.

So yeah, I definitely see Cody being pushed big when he returns and I see the WWE product drastically improving in quality as well...just as it has in the last week or two.

But the question Bunny was asking is a valid one because since Cody left he has made certain remarks towards Hunter, from how he was used, to Hunter’s ring work etc knowing HHH’s history it is natural to question if there will be bitterness, Hunter is not someone who has simply let bygones be bygones, there are a number of vocal wrestlers who will tell you that. It can throw all the logic he gained from Ryan Ward, Regal and Gabe Sapolsky out the window. But I agree here it wont happen because Cody is smart to contain his feelings and his k!ss his behind “Hunter is my favourite wrestler” jesus right after burying his ring work lol Plus Stephanie is there to and Vince has invested a lot in Cody, it would be unprofessional if he did something drastic. However, I think in kayfabe it’s not a bad move down the line, but the expectation is Cody should be presented as a top guy and how they get there it’s fine, if for example he lost the Rumble match and was the last to be eliminated by a guy with tremendous heat, it’s great for Cody because his comeback and pop ought to be even bigger, it’s not absolutely necessary but if it’s like that I don’t mind, if he is working Madcap Moss or Happy Corbin then there are questions

 

[shaz619]

I think your MJF theory might just end up coming true. But as much as I am excited for this match, I can't help but feel that this change is driven by desperation in what seems to be a really uncertain time for AEW. Their parent company Warner Discovery is putting the axe to their newly acquired subsidiaries and I don't even think its too far-fetched to imagine a future where AEW might not even have a TV deal anymore and get cancelled.

In the context of that, I think they might try to hotshot this match for ratings and give us a non-finish. But to compensate for that non-finish they might bring MJF back and figure him into this situation somehow. Then you could have Mox v Punk proper at the PPV with MJF in the Casino Ladder Match. Or You could Punk v Mox v MJF.

On top of that, the backstage stuff in AEW seems to be getting alot of traction too. Apparently Punk calling Page out last night was not planned and a 'receipt' for some off the cuff and unplanned remarks that Page made in a promo during their feud. I remember us and alot of others talking about how weird and disjointed that feud felt. Especially with the promos. It didn't seem like Page was the babyface champion going into that match. Well apparently that's how he really felt. Some people are even saying that after all that transpired Punk said he would never job to Page.

So seems like divisions and camps are already starting to form in AEW.

Both played their part but man, as a face no one is on Punk’s level with the mic right now, and am not even looking at this shoot in isolation because he has been cutting some outstanding conventional face promos consistently. We all know Punk has an ego but it’s due to his standards, Adam Page needs to get real, this sort of unprofessionalism wouldn’t be tolerated anywhere else, he ruined a program because he didn’t want to drop a belt. That doesn’t sound good the Discovery angle, I know they have been making moves in other areas to and hitting the reset button with streaming etc but surely AEW would find a new home, they need to look at alternatives right away. Which would make their recent booking logical, with them wanting to look as appealing as possible on the books whether they need to find a new home or not, hopefully MJF is involved, he has a big cult following and is an under rated ratings driver, I was surprised to see some of the YT viewership on his videos, he gets people hooked

 

[shaz619]

Rey has been an anomaly throughout his career. No luchador has had more success than him especially in USA. No other luchador has been as consistent in putting consistently great matches for over 20 years as Rey has. The guy can still hang with the guys over 25 years younger than him and dare I say does better than them. He is approaching 50 yet has shown no signs of slowing down. Although he has been treated like a jobber in WWE since his return.

I think the presentation of AJ that he developed after leaving TNA and perfected over in NJPW made him a guy that WWE could seriously look as the top guy. I don't think WWE would have seen him anything more than a mid carder during his X Division days although I prefer that AJ over the current one. The unhinged AJ was the best AJ for me (not saying the current one is bad).

Jeff's body has deteriorated quickly due to the damage he has taken on his body through the years due to his wrestling style. It's surprising that he is still wrestling after 25 years. But I think Jeff definitely knows how to wrestle a technical match, it's just that he has never really chosen to do it. In his home promotion OMEGA, there are clips of Jeff wrestling technical matches, Matt doing a freakin' 450 splash and stuff. Think Jeff has something you can't really explain that makes you gravitate towards him. I have rarely ever seen crowd not reacting to Jeff even when he is doing basic moves.

I think Orton is one guy who knows the business inside out. He would never do anything extra based on occasion. In a way he's like Brock, he knows when to go all out and when to restrain himself. A very intellectual dude IMO. Plus the way he has consistently portrayed his character with minor details has been perfect. One of the most reliable guys of pro wrestling.

That’s because Rey is a pioneer and one of the best of all time. The blip he had in the mid 2010’s was due to issues out the ring and gaining weight, ever since he has been more disciplined and spends less time on the shelf, but to still perform at a high level so late in his career just adds to his legacy, Rey is Rey no matter where he is booked on the card, it’s a stretch to label him a jobber.

It’s a big misconception of AJ establishing himself in NJPW, all he had to do there was show up and work with a long line of seriously gifted performers and show off his technical ability, it was the culmination of all his hard work and Gado had the foresight to treat him like a star. But in TNA AJ displayed his all round versatility in the ring and as a character. He had the IT factor and made the company a good alternative to follow due to his innovation, AJ personified TNA despite the booking and that says something, WWE tried to recruit him numerous times, some of it was low ball offers but mostly bitterness, they did the same with Joe wanting to sign him but presenting creative like we will pair you with Umaga and make you the Wild Samoans v2. With AJ going to NJPW, you could argue it made it easier for both parties to talk without the TNA label hanging over their heads and it also helped AJ get the deal he’d want eventually because when he left TNA, they were offering him a 60% cut. NJPW was a stepping stone, to think that run itself “developed” AJ is misguided, he elevated the Japan roster, they put the belt on him in his first match, Gado gave him the platform to showcase his abilities in a stable environment.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That’s because Rey is a pioneer and one of the best of all time. The blip he had in the mid 2010’s was due to issues out the ring and gaining weight, ever since he has been more disciplined and spends less time on the shelf, but to still perform at a high level so late in his career just adds to his legacy, Rey is Rey no matter where he is booked on the card, it’s a stretch to label him a jobber.

It’s a big misconception of AJ establishing himself in NJPW, all he had to do there was show up and work with a long line of seriously gifted performers and show off his technical ability, it was the culmination of all his hard work and Gado had the foresight to treat him like a star. But in TNA AJ displayed his all round versatility in the ring and as a character. He had the IT factor and made the company a good alternative to follow due to his innovation, AJ personified TNA despite the booking and that says something, WWE tried to recruit him numerous times, some of it was low ball offers but mostly bitterness, they did the same with Joe wanting to sign him but presenting creative like we will pair you with Umaga and make you the Wild Samoans v2. With AJ going to NJPW, you could argue it made it easier for both parties to talk without the TNA label hanging over their heads and it also helped AJ get the deal he’d want eventually because when he left TNA, they were offering him a 60% cut. NJPW was a stepping stone, to think that run itself “developed” AJ is misguided, he elevated the Japan roster, they put the belt on him in his first match, Gado gave him the platform to showcase his abilities in a stable environment.

It was the presentation of AJ as a leader not development like I said. Don't think he had been put in as a leader of a faction in TNA that too a massively successful one. In TNA he wasn't the leader of Immortal I think. It's just about giving him more responsibility. Although I do believe the TNA AJ was another beast.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But the question Bunny was asking is a valid one because since Cody left he has made certain remarks towards Hunter, from how he was used, to Hunter’s ring work etc knowing HHH’s history it is natural to question if there will be bitterness, Hunter is not someone who has simply let bygones be bygones, there are a number of vocal wrestlers who will tell you that. It can throw all the logic he gained from Ryan Ward, Regal and Gabe Sapolsky out the window. But I agree here it wont happen because Cody is smart to contain his feelings and his k!ss his behind “Hunter is my favourite wrestler” jesus right after burying his ring work lol Plus Stephanie is there to and Vince has invested a lot in Cody, it would be unprofessional if he did something drastic. However, I think in kayfabe it’s not a bad move down the line, but the expectation is Cody should be presented as a top guy and how they get there it’s fine, if for example he lost the Rumble match and was the last to be eliminated by a guy with tremendous heat, it’s great for Cody because his comeback and pop ought to be even bigger, it’s not absolutely necessary but if it’s like that I don’t mind, if he is working Madcap Moss or Happy Corbin then there are questions

It's a valid question but I don't believe HHH is stupid enough to do something like that. Especially now that he is head of creative and its his a** that's on the line. I also don't think Hunter hates or even dislikes Cody. What Cody said or did was what any other smart guy would have done to get the attention of the smarks. At the end of the day you can chalk that up to workin', brother. HHH has repaired far worse relationships with guys like Shawn, X-Pac, Jericho over the years. Punk is the only one who he seems to have deep-seated animosity towards and he even called Punk a couple of years ago.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Both played their part but man, as a face no one is on PunkÂ’s level with the mic right now, and am not even looking at this shoot in isolation because he has been cutting some outstanding conventional face promos consistently. We all know Punk has an ego but itÂ’s due to his standards, Adam Page needs to get real, this sort of unprofessionalism wouldnÂ’t be tolerated anywhere else, he ruined a program because he didnÂ’t want to drop a belt. That doesnÂ’t sound good the Discovery angle, I know they have been making moves in other areas to and hitting the reset button with streaming etc but surely AEW would find a new home, they need to look at alternatives right away. Which would make their recent booking logical, with them wanting to look as appealing as possible on the books whether they need to find a new home or not, hopefully MJF is involved, he has a big cult following and is an under rated ratings driver, I was surprised to see some of the YT viewership on his videos, he gets people hooked

What makes me laugh is that Adam Page actually thought that he should be champion because he was there from day one and the fans 'liked him'. It's laughable that he thinks that he is even in the same stratosphere as Punk verbally, personality-wise or when it comes to working. He may have been there from day one but at the end of the day its Tony Khan's company. And everyone knows that if Tony had his way he would have had Punk from day one as his #1 guy. Punk, Jericho, Omega and the Bucks were the guys he wanted from the very start. And forget everything, what has this guy even done? Besides those two matches with Danielson where he was wrestling Bryan for 30+ minutes twice and it was basically impossible to have a bad match, his entire title run felt like an afterthought. Nobody cared about him as champion after the first month or two...he had zero memorable feuds and he gave TK zero reasons to keep the belt on him. He's a good wrestler, but in a company loaded with good wrestlers, that doesn't mean much.

Based on everything I've heard about him on the dirtsheets and his own tweets, he comes across as a stereotypical sanctimonious, entitled millennial that boomers love to talk all day about.

Ofcourse the hardcore AEW marks are predictably going after Punk eventhough it was Page who started this whole thing by being straight-up unprofessional. But I for one, have a lot of respect for CM Punk for putting this entitled brat in his place. And look, Page can make all the thinly veiled comments that he wants on social media, but we all know who Tony would choose if it came down to one of these two.

I agree. Punk has this incredible ability to just come across as genuine and real. You can tell immediately that what you see is what you get. And that for me is what wrestling has been missing for so long. Especially babyfaces who feel real because that's what's hardest to do.

Another thing that could happen is that this match could be a set-up for a gimmick match between these two at the PPV. Because its entirely possible that a singles match might not be enough to resolve the tension that is seemingly boiling over. But I definitely see MJF returning soon. The dirtsheets have started talking about it too. If he doesn't return on Dynamite its very like that he can returns at All Out too. Regardless though, I think we've got an exciting couple of weeks of Dynamite ahead.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You’re right though, you have to give Bryan massive props, he belongs on the mount rushmore of wrestling, he consistently had had incredible matches with all sorts of opponents in varying scenario’s and to top of it of his character work has been outstanding to and developed nicely over the years. Garcia wont have this match with Yuta due to his inexperience but he played his part and his technique is great, you need to have a good IQ to follow up on the spots your opponent is calling to and Garcia has the tools to follow through with a psychological match, it is early but be reminds me a little of Dean Malenko. He’s only 23 and will get even better down the line when it comes to his selling and story telling which will allow him to utilise fewer moves and take fewer bumps which are hard. There was a night and day difference between this match and the pure one he had with Yuta but having matches like these with Bryan will help him with layout of his matches in the future, and I think his style will work much better at this time as a baby face. Again those head spots were not needed but Bryan seems to be happy getting dropped like that. My favourite spot in the match was Bryan missing with the running knee off the apron and then Garcia moving out the way to give a back body drop on the outside

I told you this kid had the goods. I have been watching him for a year now and I was immediately impressed by his ability in the ring for a guy as young as he is. Now granted, you were right to have your reservations because if we're being honest he hasn't had this kind of a match on any AEW event so far. But there were little things about his work that I noticed from the very start that impressed me. Over the last month, I had a lot of time on my hands so I decided to check out PWG's BOLA from this year too…which he won. And he actually had a few really good matches there as well.

Under the tutelage of guys like Regal, Danielson, Claudio and even Mox I think he will get even better...if that is the direction that they are going in.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You’re right though, you have to give Bryan massive props, he belongs on the mount rushmore of wrestling, he consistently had had incredible matches with all sorts of opponents in varying scenario’s and to top of it of his character work has been outstanding to and developed nicely over the years. Garcia wont have this match with Yuta due to his inexperience but he played his part and his technique is great, you need to have a good IQ to follow up on the spots your opponent is calling to and Garcia has the tools to follow through with a psychological match, it is early but be reminds me a little of Dean Malenko. He’s only 23 and will get even better down the line when it comes to his selling and story telling which will allow him to utilise fewer moves and take fewer bumps which are hard. There was a night and day difference between this match and the pure one he had with Yuta but having matches like these with Bryan will help him with layout of his matches in the future, and I think his style will work much better at this time as a baby face. Again those head spots were not needed but Bryan seems to be happy getting dropped like that. My favourite spot in the match was Bryan missing with the running knee off the apron and then Garcia moving out the way to give a back body drop on the outside

That's an interesting comparison and high praise. I definitely see a resemblance in regards to working. And I agree, he would be even better as a babyface fighting from underneath. I also feel he has alot of untapped personality that hasn't come to the fore just yet, but will in the future. You saw it in certain moments of this match when his facials and reactions were simply amazing. This is also why I rate him higher than Yuta, who comes across as too much of a whitemeat babyface.

 

[shaz619]

It's a valid question but I don't believe HHH is stupid enough to do something like that. Especially now that he is head of creative and its his a** that's on the line. I also don't think Hunter hates or even dislikes Cody. What Cody said or did was what any other smart guy would have done to get the attention of the smarks. At the end of the day you can chalk that up to workin', brother. HHH has repaired far worse relationships with guys like Shawn, X-Pac, Jericho over the years. Punk is the only one who he seems to have deep-seated animosity towards and he even called Punk a couple of years ago.

Hunter doesn’t need to hate or like someone to bury them, it’s not personal for him when he is furthering his own agenda or just being a class A douche. There is massive element of envy when it comes to the success of others, his insecurity is next level. The NXT project has helped mellow down that and his backstage politicking, it gave him order and structure, rather then who should be my next victim to make me feel good about my abilities. However, the innate politician is still there deep within, I have some serious thoughts about how things have transpired behind the scenes in the past 12 months or so. Anyway, going back to Cody, Hunter would on paper in this scenario have extra motivation to sabotage him, but unfortunately he is too high profile in a new role to do that. I don’t think he hates Cody, but I don’t think he likes him either for all the things he said, but Cody is shrewd himself and will hopefully overcome any attempt from Darth Burius to usurp him. As for the other guys you mentioned he made up with most of those are his besties, there are still those who are not his biggest fans even after all these years unless they are on the WWE payroll, I wish Sting wasn’t such a nice guy sometimes either, am sure he’d hurt some of his most vocal supporters post NXT black/gold, I wont forget the deplorable promos he was forced to cut literally k!ssing his behind and that wasn’t that long ago

 

[shaz619]

That's an interesting comparison and high praise. I definitely see a resemblance in regards to working. And I agree, he would be even better as a babyface fighting from underneath. I also feel he has alot of untapped personality that hasn't come to the fore just yet, but will in the future. You saw it in certain moments of this match when his facials and reactions were simply amazing. This is also why I rate him higher than Yuta, who comes across as too much of a whitemeat babyface.

You defo have a good eye, I had not followed him as much as you, but after how the drama surrounding the first match unfolded, I just had to see the second. I forget he is 23, he got plenty of time to improve his persona, I wonder where he learned to wrestle and who from?


Btw what’s it with Social Media turning on Punk constantly, I am getting sick of seeing the “HHH was right” clip, one sec they are his biggest fans and next minute Punk is being attacked, probably by hardcore WWE stans mostly. I doubt many have seen his work since his return, he is cutting some of the greatest baby face promos in modern history

 

[shaz619]

If Reigns is going over in the Castle, Gunther v Sheamus has to be the main event perhaps and they could send the crowd home happy by giving him his moment. But what a match up, the dream encounter we never knew we wanted

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You defo have a good eye, I had not followed him as much as you, but after how the drama surrounding the first match unfolded, I just had to see the second. I forget he is 23, he got plenty of time to improve his persona, I wonder where he learned to wrestle and who from?


Btw what’s it with Social Media turning on Punk constantly, I am getting sick of seeing the “HHH was right” clip, one sec they are his biggest fans and next minute Punk is being attacked, probably by hardcore WWE stans mostly. I doubt many have seen his work since his return, he is cutting some of the greatest baby face promos in modern history

Not much is known about his background. He was trained by AEW's The Blade aka Pepper Parks, who has trained a number of indie wrestlers from his age group. He got into a life-threatening car accident in 2019 that nearly ended his life. But other than that I can't say I know much about him.

No idea. Thankfully I make a conscious effort not to follow wrestling twitter. Not just because I don't like matches getting spoiled but also because its just such a toxic place. The people who were restricted to obscure message boards in the 90s now have free rein to share all their sh*tty opinions with everyone, regardless of whether we want to hear them or not.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hunter doesn’t need to hate or like someone to bury them, it’s not personal for him when he is furthering his own agenda or just being a class A douche. There is massive element of envy when it comes to the success of others, his insecurity is next level. The NXT project has helped mellow down that and his backstage politicking, it gave him order and structure, rather then who should be my next victim to make me feel good about my abilities. However, the innate politician is still there deep within, I have some serious thoughts about how things have transpired behind the scenes in the past 12 months or so. Anyway, going back to Cody, Hunter would on paper in this scenario have extra motivation to sabotage him, but unfortunately he is too high profile in a new role to do that. I don’t think he hates Cody, but I don’t think he likes him either for all the things he said, but Cody is shrewd himself and will hopefully overcome any attempt from Darth Burius to usurp him. As for the other guys you mentioned he made up with most of those are his besties, there are still those who are not his biggest fans even after all these years unless they are on the WWE payroll, I wish Sting wasn’t such a nice guy sometimes either, am sure he’d hurt some of his most vocal supporters post NXT black/gold, I wont forget the deplorable promos he was forced to cut literally k!ssing his behind and that wasn’t that long ago

Look, I dunno if HHH is lying or working us but listening to some of his recent interviews I get the sense that he is only interested in making the WWE product great. You are not wrong to doubt his motivations or intentions given his history but I for one am willing to give him a chance. Because just from a personal stand-point he seems to be someone who gets it. He gets what's logical and what makes sense having grown up on NWA, WCCW, CWF, AWA...but then he also gets what makes a star having been featured at the top during the Attitude Era and has the pulse of the modern audience too, which he showed with his booking of NXT. And at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. And when you look at it, WWE TV in just the last week hasn't been this good in atleast 2 years.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I do find it hilarious though that it took HHH just two weeks to put his signature leather jacket/denim jacket combo on Shayna Baszler. I LOLed watching her come out in that. It will never not be an absolutely ridiculous dressing choice.