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The Wrestling Discussion Thread

Suleiman said:
Nalayakh’s ego is too big and he’s focused on useless things like a documentary where he ruins the magic of wrestling by “exposing” things backstage to make himself look like a genius and killing whatever was left of kayfabe.

to the point he is now justifying booking decisions on live tv. Lmao 🤡

Vince was probably regretting doing whatever he did that now his goofy son in law has the reigns.

Also, this popped up in my recommended yesterday :asghar :wenger

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They had to pump his chest with all kinds of roids before be could finally be semi-normal with everyone, and even then he’s a scumbag.
 
Rajdeep said:
Wow...watch this video. Vince was tough to work for:

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If you listen to Cole on commentary now, he’s a cancer for the ears, mistake after mistake, can’t call moves correctly, premeditated emotion and comes across way more scripted; he was actually a lot better when Vince was screaming down his head-set and while he was abusive, he kept the goals fairly simple.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Which is what I still maintain. Booking Cena to face Gunther was booking themselves into a corner just like booking Oba vs Cody when neither of the two should be losing.

The fans who came to see Cena wrestle his final match didn't come to watch a technical masterpiece. Maybe only 30% of the wrestling fans enjoy technical wrestling. Majority of the fans are kids at the end of the day. And they didn't come there to see Cena trying to escape a rear naked choke for 10 mins only to tap out.

The story build was absent. Cena and Gunther shared no history, not even any promo segment. If they were going to book a feud, atleast have the two interact before time.

It felt like a forced move especially when there were guys like Roman and Drew were available. KO would have been an ideal final opponent for him if he wasn't injured. Roman knows how to get the crowd invested just through his body language and a loss for the tribal chief wouldn't have derailed his momentum.

Why Taker's final match worked was because it WAS NOT packaged as a technical classic. The two could have easily had it but you don't base your match around it if the retirement is booked a year in advance for a superhero like figure.
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I’m not a big believer in sending the fans home happy every single time. Wrestling, at its core, is about storytelling, and the storytelling has to make sense. That’s when wrestling is at its best. Plenty of great films have dark or bleak endings; that doesn’t diminish their quality. In fact, it’s often that bleakness that elevates them and makes them truly memorable. What matters is whether the story works, and here, it did. I agree that the build for this match was almost nonexistent. Saving even one Cena appearance for a proper face-to-face with Gunther would have helped immensely. But setting that aside, almost everything about the match itself worked.

Your problem is that you focus too much on established names. Wrestlers like Drew, Roman, or KO don’t need to beat Cena, just as Brock Lesnar didn’t need to be the one to end the streak. These are already made men with years of credibility and name value behind them. In KO’s case, the window to elevate him into a true top-of-the-card attraction has long passed. Gunther, on the other hand, stands to gain enormously from this. A win like this pushes him to the next level. So why not leverage the credibility Cena has built over decades to launch Gunther into the stratosphere?

Undertaker's 'last match' was not a match, and continuing to call it one is frankly ludicrous. A wrestling match happens in a ring. It doesn’t take place on a closed set with choreographed stunts, pre-planned set pieces, and cinematic camera work. It was a cinematic farewell done under extremely unique circumstances, because that was the only way they could send Taker out on a high at that point. And it worked. But it was not a wrestling match in any sense of the word, which is why it cannot be compared to any actual wrestling match.

If Undertaker could’ve had a conventional final match, he would have, and the fact that he chose AJ Styles tells you that he wanted something as close to a technical classic as was realistically possible, depending on his body and his age.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Christian is another name who knows how to get the crowd invested in a match not through his technical expertise but through his body language, gestures, etc. An underrated legend. Him and Edge are cut from the same cloth.
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One of the most criminally underrated wrestlers of the last 25 years. Deserved better.
 
shaz619 said:
To be fair to Vince, all the commies who had to call under him, put out their best work while on edge ☠️

While you look at someone like Cole now and he’s just horrific
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I don't know if that's true. I don't think Vince was micromanaging as much during the 90s, and that's when JR and King did some of their best work. Even in later years, I don't think Vince was micromanaging JR and King as much, because they always felt like they had their unique voice. Cole during the early years was better because he was playing it straight. He was the play-by-play guy on SD and wasn't exactly offering alot of insight. Once Vince got in his ear he started becoming insufferable too. I think this is something Vince really doubled down on after the mid-2000s, and probably did it alot with the newer guys like Grisham, Josh Matthews, Striker etc.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I’m not a big believer in sending the fans home happy every single time. Wrestling, at its core, is about storytelling, and the storytelling has to make sense. That’s when wrestling is at its best. Plenty of great films have dark or bleak endings; that doesn’t diminish their quality. In fact, it’s often that bleakness that elevates them and makes them truly memorable. What matters is whether the story works, and here, it did. I agree that the build for this match was almost nonexistent. Saving even one Cena appearance for a proper face-to-face with Gunther would have helped immensely. But setting that aside, almost everything about the match itself worked.

Your problem is that you focus too much on established names. Wrestlers like Drew, Roman, or KO don’t need to beat Cena, just as Brock Lesnar didn’t need to be the one to end the streak. These are already made men with years of credibility and name value behind them. In KO’s case, the window to elevate him into a true top-of-the-card attraction has long passed. Gunther, on the other hand, stands to gain enormously from this. A win like this pushes him to the next level. So why not leverage the credibility Cena has built over decades to launch Gunther into the stratosphere?

Undertaker's 'last match' was not a match, and continuing to call it one is frankly ludicrous. A wrestling match happens in a ring. It doesn’t take place on a closed set with choreographed stunts, pre-planned set pieces, and cinematic camera work. It was a cinematic farewell done under extremely unique circumstances, because that was the only way they could send Taker out on a high at that point. And it worked. But it was not a wrestling match in any sense of the word, which is why it cannot be compared to any actual wrestling match.

If Undertaker could’ve had a conventional final match, he would have, and the fact that he chose AJ Styles tells you that he wanted something as close to a technical classic as was realistically possible, depending on his body and his age.
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You're saying that cause you're not a casual fan IMO. And majority of fans are casual. Only 20% of fans are maybe the ones who dwell into the intracacies. With Roman and KO, there was history, with Drew, the feud needed to be built just like it needed to be for Gunther. Not every match books itself like Rock Roman, Cena Rock, Taker Shawn etc and Cena Gunther was simply not that. If Gunther was to be given Cena, then Goldberg could have been given to someone else. You don't need to feed all the retirement matches to one guy (which is one of the reasons Cena and Roman's Big Dog pushes were so repulsive)
And pro wrestling is not tv classics like Breaking Bad, The Wire etc where there are clues left intentionally to be deciphered by fans. It's more like soap operas and not every thing has to make sense.
You really think Gunther will be booked to take all the heat? If that was the case, Mr Noseley wouldn't have brought his big nose front and center right after the match had finished.

The reason I think Brock was the right person to beat the streak was the output it generated afterwards. Brock a year prior was booked to lose to Triple H at Mania. He needed the help of Heyman to beat him in their feud decider which was a disgrace to Brock's character. It restored credibility to his name.
Gunther shouldn't have lost to Jey, it's just as simple as that.

Randy, Edge, Punk or Brock could be booked to lose their final match because the nature of their character fits it. For Cena, it simply doesn't. The sole purpose of that character is to give hope and you're just killing it for the sake of a rule that isn't even there.

Think we can just agree to disagree here. Nothing you'll say will change my opinion and vice versa.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I don't know if that's true. I don't think Vince was micromanaging as much during the 90s, and that's when JR and King did some of their best work. Even in later years, I don't think Vince was micromanaging JR and King as much, because they always felt like they had their unique voice. Cole during the early years was better because he was playing it straight. He was the play-by-play guy on SD and wasn't exactly offering alot of insight. Once Vince got in his ear he started becoming insufferable too. I think this is something Vince really doubled down on after the mid-2000s, and probably did it alot with the newer guys like Grisham, Josh Matthews, Striker etc.
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I think commentators lose their touch just like the wrestlers do. Cole is past his prime as well. And similarly Vince declined too.
Vince himself was a fantastic commentator as well.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
You're saying that cause you're not a casual fan IMO. And majority of fans are casual. Only 20% of fans are maybe the ones who dwell into the intracacies. With Roman and KO, there was history, with Drew, the feud needed to be built just like it needed to be for Gunther. Not every match books itself like Rock Roman, Cena Rock, Taker Shawn etc and Cena Gunther was simply not that. If Gunther was to be given Cena, then Goldberg could have been given to someone else. You don't need to feed all the retirement matches to one guy (which is one of the reasons Cena and Roman's Big Dog pushes were so repulsive)
And pro wrestling is not tv classics like Breaking Bad, The Wire etc where there are clues left intentionally to be deciphered by fans. It's more like soap operas and not every thing has to make sense.
You really think Gunther will be booked to take all the heat? If that was the case, Mr Noseley wouldn't have brought his big nose front and center right after the match had finished.

The reason I think Brock was the right person to beat the streak was the output it generated afterwards. Brock a year prior was booked to lose to Triple H at Mania. He needed the help of Heyman to beat him in their feud decider which was a disgrace to Brock's character. It restored credibility to his name.
Gunther shouldn't have lost to Jey, it's just as simple as that.

Randy, Edge, Punk or Brock could be booked to lose their final match because the nature of their character fits it. For Cena, it simply doesn't. The sole purpose of that character is to give hope and you're just killing it for the sake of a rule that isn't even there.

Think we can just agree to disagree here. Nothing you'll say will change my opinion and vice versa.
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You are confusing the issue by bringing multiple different things into the same argument; Goldberg, Jey Uso - focus on the topic: Cena's last match. And your reasoning doesn't make much sense. This was not the main-event of WrestleMania where you have to book the biggest money match possible with the best build. This was the last match of John Cena's career so it made sense to have Cena put over a rising star. Just because Cena has history with certain guys doesn't mean they need the rub of beating Cena in his last match. You've also failed to give me a single good example of a major star winning their last match/retirement match.

Also, I think you are projecting your lack of taste by saying pro-wrestling should not have deep story-telling. Why not? If everything feels the same, remains the same, is predictable, then that would make the product awfully stale and uninteresting to watch. The people who say pro-wrestling is like a soap-opera don't mean it in the literal sense. When they say that they’re talking about the serialized storytelling, ongoing rivalries, heightened emotions, and long-term character arcs that unfold week after week. I mean have you ever seen a soap-opera? It's absolute crap. And this idea that pro-wrestling fans are dumb and need simplistic things is also a weak, lazy argument that ignores how deeply invested audiences are in layered storytelling, long-term continuity, and nuance when it’s done well. You may not have liked it, many others may not have liked it, but years from now, people will look back on this match, deconstruct it and appreciate it for the poignant send-off that it was.

Brock never lost his credibility to begin with. I don't recall anyone saying how Brock was ruined because he lost to Triple H. Vince beat Brock on his first match back in WWE to Cena back in 2012. If anything was going to ruin his credibility that should have been it, but it didn't because Brock is Brock. Even if someone has never seen him wrestle in their lives they can just take one look at him and deduce that the guy is a beast.

Well I never tried to change your opinion, I just gave mine. You are the one who seemed up in arms about me liking this match.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
You're saying that cause you're not a casual fan IMO. And majority of fans are casual. Only 20% of fans are maybe the ones who dwell into the intracacies. With Roman and KO, there was history, with Drew, the feud needed to be built just like it needed to be for Gunther. Not every match books itself like Rock Roman, Cena Rock, Taker Shawn etc and Cena Gunther was simply not that. If Gunther was to be given Cena, then Goldberg could have been given to someone else. You don't need to feed all the retirement matches to one guy (which is one of the reasons Cena and Roman's Big Dog pushes were so repulsive)
And pro wrestling is not tv classics like Breaking Bad, The Wire etc where there are clues left intentionally to be deciphered by fans. It's more like soap operas and not every thing has to make sense.
You really think Gunther will be booked to take all the heat? If that was the case, Mr Noseley wouldn't have brought his big nose front and center right after the match had finished.

The reason I think Brock was the right person to beat the streak was the output it generated afterwards. Brock a year prior was booked to lose to Triple H at Mania. He needed the help of Heyman to beat him in their feud decider which was a disgrace to Brock's character. It restored credibility to his name.
Gunther shouldn't have lost to Jey, it's just as simple as that.

Randy, Edge, Punk or Brock could be booked to lose their final match because the nature of their character fits it. For Cena, it simply doesn't. The sole purpose of that character is to give hope and you're just killing it for the sake of a rule that isn't even there.

Think we can just agree to disagree here. Nothing you'll say will change my opinion and vice versa.
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Dolph Ziggler came back during the Last Time is Now tournament.

I think Cena vs Dolph could've been great (with Cena winning it of course).
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Randy, Edge, Punk or Brock could be booked to lose their final match because the nature of their character fits it. For Cena, it simply doesn't. The sole purpose of that character is to give hope and you're just killing it for the sake of a rule that isn't even there.

Think we can just agree to disagree here. Nothing you'll say will change my opinion and vice versa.
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You missed the point if you think the sole purpose of that character was to give hope. John Cena was the quintessential good guy, but at the end of the day, he was human. Throughout his career he overcame almost every obstacle put in front of him, yet in the end he fell short precisely because he was human. His last match was a reflection of that truth. Despite everything he had accomplished, time, wear, and mortality finally caught up to him. That's life. And I'm glad that we got this true to life ending, rather than some sappy, sentimental, feel-good ending that would have betrayed the character.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I think commentators lose their touch just like the wrestlers do. Cole is past his prime as well. And similarly Vince declined too.
Vince himself was a fantastic commentator as well.
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What was his prime? I have pretty much always hated listening to Cole barring the period when he was on SmackDown with Taz. That's the only version of Cole I find tolerable and okay to listen to. Part of it may have been Vince, alot of it is probably him and whatever that rat toothed f**k Kevin Dunn taught him. But the fact that this guy is hailed by WWE as seemingly the 'voice of WWE' now and their most esteemed commentator or whatever is tragic. Because anyone and everyone who grew up watching wrestling in the past 30 years knows that no one is more deserving of the moniker of the 'voice of wrestling' than JR. And honestly it's a bit shameful how WWE try to bury JR's legacy just because he doesn't work for them anymore. No man has given meaning to more moments in WWE with his commentary than JR.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
What was his prime? I have pretty much always hated listening to Cole barring the period when he was on SmackDown with Taz. That's the only version of Cole I find tolerable and okay to listen to. Part of it may have been Vince, alot of it is probably him and whatever that rat toothed f**k Kevin Dunn taught him. But the fact that this guy is hailed by WWE as seemingly the 'voice of WWE' now and their most esteemed commentator or whatever is tragic. Because anyone and everyone who grew up watching wrestling in the past 30 years knows that no one is more deserving of the moniker of the 'voice of wrestling' than JR. And honestly it's a bit shameful how WWE try to bury JR's legacy just because he doesn't work for them anymore. No man has given meaning to more moments in WWE with his commentary than JR.
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Just because he didn't have a very high ceiling doesn't mean he never hit his prime. He was serviceable for some time maybe till 2012. He was pretty annoying from 2016-2019. But you could recognize his voice easily mainly because he's been commentating for so long. It's just like Ramiz Raja. Not necessarily a good commentator but recognizable. But Cole's been declining of late. Just like JR did. Heyman might still be able to pull it off. But commentating is a thankless job. You have to keep talking and talking for hours and there would be days when you'll just not be able to do it well.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You missed the point if you think the sole purpose of that character was to give hope. John Cena was the quintessential good guy, but at the end of the day, he was human. Throughout his career he overcame almost every obstacle put in front of him, yet in the end he fell short precisely because he was human. His last match was a reflection of that truth. Despite everything he had accomplished, time, wear, and mortality finally caught up to him. That's life. And I'm glad that we got this true to life ending, rather than some sappy, sentimental, feel-good ending that would have betrayed the character.
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Cena lost more since 2016 that he rarely won. Losing wasn't as big of a deal as tapping out was.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You are confusing the issue by bringing multiple different things into the same argument; Goldberg, Jey Uso - focus on the topic: Cena's last match. And your reasoning doesn't make much sense. This was not the main-event of WrestleMania where you have to book the biggest money match possible with the best build. This was the last match of John Cena's career so it made sense to have Cena put over a rising star. Just because Cena has history with certain guys doesn't mean they need the rub of beating Cena in his last match. You've also failed to give me a single good example of a major star winning their last match/retirement match.

Also, I think you are projecting your lack of taste by saying pro-wrestling should not have deep story-telling. Why not? If everything feels the same, remains the same, is predictable, then that would make the product awfully stale and uninteresting to watch. The people who say pro-wrestling is like a soap-opera don't mean it in the literal sense. When they say that they’re talking about the serialized storytelling, ongoing rivalries, heightened emotions, and long-term character arcs that unfold week after week. I mean have you ever seen a soap-opera? It's absolute crap. And this idea that pro-wrestling fans are dumb and need simplistic things is also a weak, lazy argument that ignores how deeply invested audiences are in layered storytelling, long-term continuity, and nuance when it’s done well. You may not have liked it, many others may not have liked it, but years from now, people will look back on this match, deconstruct it and appreciate it for the poignant send-off that it was.

Brock never lost his credibility to begin with. I don't recall anyone saying how Brock was ruined because he lost to Triple H. Vince beat Brock on his first match back in WWE to Cena back in 2012. If anything was going to ruin his credibility that should have been it, but it didn't because Brock is Brock. Even if someone has never seen him wrestle in their lives they can just take one look at him and deduce that the guy is a beast.

Well I never tried to change your opinion, I just gave mine. You are the one who seemed up in arms about me liking this match.
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Why are you so ticked off at someone giving their opinion. Others have a choice to dislike a match or a storyline as well you know.
The meme was a lighthearted poke. Stop getting offended by something so small.
Did i tell you that you have dysgeusia just because you like gunther? Don't be like IWC.
People can have different opinions about storylines and matches and wrestlers. Agree or disagree, but getting apprehensive about it is silly.
 
sweep_shot said:
Dolph Ziggler came back during the Last Time is Now tournament.

I think Cena vs Dolph could've been great (with Cena winning it of course).
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Dolph is signed to TNA. Don't think it would have been a possibility since WWE wouldn't have given such a high profile match to someone not even signed to them.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Dolph is signed to TNA. Don't think it would have been a possibility since WWE wouldn't have given such a high profile match to someone not even signed to them.
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I believe Dolph is not contracted. He became a freelancer. That's why he could come to WWE. I think he could've easily stayed in WWE for a few more weeks.


Also, he is wrestling in Mexico currently I believe.
 
sweep_shot said:
I believe Dolph is not contracted. He became a freelancer. That's why he could come to WWE. I think he could've easily stayed in WWE for a few more weeks.

Also, he is wrestling in Mexico currently I believe.
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TNA and WWE have a working relationship. That's how the likes of Leon Slater, Hardyz etc have been appearing on NXT.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Genuinely interested if this narcissist is capable of doing something nice without documenting it lol.

Like just one of these days, I'd like to see someone on social media go: 'hey, I bumped into The Rock at my time of need and he really helped me out without shooting the whole thing from like 15 different camera angles.' :sarf2
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I don’t hate him as much as you, but imagine there was a dime for every time Cena had this recorded; he’d be the world’s richest man lol
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I don't know if that's true. I don't think Vince was micromanaging as much during the 90s, and that's when JR and King did some of their best work. Even in later years, I don't think Vince was micromanaging JR and King as much, because they always felt like they had their unique voice. Cole during the early years was better because he was playing it straight. He was the play-by-play guy on SD and wasn't exactly offering alot of insight. Once Vince got in his ear he started becoming insufferable too. I think this is something Vince really doubled down on after the mid-2000s, and probably did it alot with the newer guys like Grisham, Josh Matthews, Striker etc.
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I don’t deny that but I feel Cole is somebody who needs a guy with a danda standing behind him or else he is a complete novice, it amazes me how out of depth he is with calling basic action, Vince was smart to neutralise that and had them originally try to follow the narrative of getting the stars over & evoking emotion, colour had changed now and Wade’s just the best, Cole is not good enough under H
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Just because he didn't have a very high ceiling doesn't mean he never hit his prime. He was serviceable for some time maybe till 2012. He was pretty annoying from 2016-2019. But you could recognize his voice easily mainly because he's been commentating for so long. It's just like Ramiz Raja. Not necessarily a good commentator but recognizable. But Cole's been declining of late. Just like JR did. Heyman might still be able to pull it off. But commentating is a thankless job. You have to keep talking and talking for hours and there would be days when you'll just not be able to do it well.
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That doesn't make him anything special in my eyes. That just means he's a leech who knows how to keep his job, probably by kissing his boss's @$$ and doing as he's told. There are plenty of people like that in every company. Good commentary is good commentary. I think you can easily tell the difference between a good commentator and a bad commentator. The fact that this is his level despite his years of experience just points to his incredible lack of talent
 
shaz619 said:
I don’t deny that but I feel Cole is somebody who needs a guy with a danda standing behind him or else he is a complete novice, it amazes me how out of depth he is with calling basic action, Vince was smart to neutralise that and had them originally try to follow the narrative of getting the stars over & evoking emotion, colour had changed now and Wade’s just the best, Cole is not good enough under H
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I can't really take a commentator like that too seriously. A good commentator can maintain their own voice even when they have someone like Vince in their ear. Vince was probably in the ears of guys like JR, JBL, Taz, Lawler too.. but they still always had their own unique voice as commentators. Cole, even in his best days always reminded me of a Create Your Announcer. The type of commentator you would create in a wrestling videogame
 
shaz619 said:
I don’t hate him as much as you, but imagine there was a dime for every time Cena had this recorded; he’d be the world’s richest man lol
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Cena's weirdest thing is that he talks like ChatGPT in real life... but somehow Rock still feels phonier to me just because of incredibly obvious publicity stunts he pulls time and time again
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Cena's weirdest thing is that he talks like ChatGPT in real life... but somehow Rock still feels phonier to me just because of incredibly obvious publicity stunts he pulls time and time again
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It’s because we know Cena’s genuine & somebody like him had to be that way to achieve what he has, from his inhuman routine/schedule to his ridiculous recovery physically, and mentally he was unbreakable, a pretty generous dude to and closest thing to a real life superman as goofy as that sounds. I am a big fan of The Rock, but Hollywood impacted his personality, I don’t think he’s a terrible guy or anything; but he doesn’t come across as authentic, a lot like Anthony Joshua during the height of his manufactured popularity @Suleiman
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Why are you so ticked off at someone giving their opinion. Others have a choice to dislike a match or a storyline as well you know.
The meme was a lighthearted poke. Stop getting offended by something so small.
Did i tell you that you have dysgeusia just because you like gunther? Don't be like IWC.
People can have different opinions about storylines and matches and wrestlers. Agree or disagree, but getting apprehensive about it is silly.
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I have no idea why you are suddenly behaving like such a petulant child. I am not the one who had an issue with you not liking this match, you are the one who had an issue with me liking it. All I did was address was your points; however ludicrous, aimless and illogical they were. Don't get into debates if you are too soft to see them through and get offended at minor disagreements.
 
shaz619 said:
It’s because we know Cena’s genuine & somebody like him had to be that way to achieve what he has, from his inhuman routine/schedule to his ridiculous recovery physically, and mentally he was unbreakable, a pretty generous dude to and closest thing to a real life superman as goofy as that sounds. I am a big fan of The Rock, but Hollywood impacted his personality, I don’t think he’s a terrible guy or anything; but he doesn’t come across as authentic, a lot like Anthony Joshua during the height of his manufactured popularity @Suleiman
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Bang on. I feel the same way.
 
You will never ever have this kind of conversation under TKO/H:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2000947865489957050

Vince liked to see if you could back up your words and valued stars who were willing to back themselves, sometimes he’d bury you in-person, but unless it happened on TV you were ok.

Meanwhile Huntdeep:

‘Vee Vaaant to renegotiate your Kuntract Mr. Reigns saaaarr’
 
shaz619 said:
You will never ever have this kind of conversation under TKO/H:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2000947865489957050

Vince liked to see if you could back up your words and valued stars who were willing to back themselves, sometimes he’d bury you in-person, but unless it happened on TV you were ok.

Meanwhile Huntdeep:

‘Vee Vaaant to renegotiate your Kuntract Mr. Reigns saaaarr’
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Throwback to when WWE was a real wrestling company
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You missed the point if you think the sole purpose of that character was to give hope. John Cena was the quintessential good guy, but at the end of the day, he was human. Throughout his career he overcame almost every obstacle put in front of him, yet in the end he fell short precisely because he was human. His last match was a reflection of that truth. Despite everything he had accomplished, time, wear, and mortality finally caught up to him. That's life. And I'm glad that we got this true to life ending, rather than some sappy, sentimental, feel-good ending that would have betrayed the character.
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It was a 5* match regardless, I have my view on it but my biggest problem is always Triple H who fumbled big time, but credit to Cena he did his absolute best with this tour and right till the end with this match, he created a memorable moment & it was a gritty finish for his character. I know there were many grown men crying (not including me
:yk) but I think it was to do with the inner childhood getting the sweet chin music and permanently ending that chapter, Cena explained it pretty well, a Logan like ending for him, not finished the podcast yet though, he was opening up a lot more though like he was waiting specifically to talk with Cody - his guy. I think out the top guys he was the best because of how giving he has been to the wrestling business and fans as well to be fair, but I still don’t feel the product is in good hands sadly due to the management across the board, and it’s not limited to WWE, we’re going back to the business becoming more and more niche.
 
We all may not agree on the Cena retirement match but if there is one thing we can all agree on it's that the sheer heat this has put on Triple H has been one of the truly amazing unintended consequences. The fans hate him more right now than they have ever hated him. And I think that's a start with the endpoint of having this talentless bald b*tch thrown out for good.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
We all may not agree on the Cena retirement match but if there is one thing we can all agree on it's that the sheer heat this has put on Triple H has been one of the truly amazing unintended consequences. The fans hate him more right now than they have ever hated him. And I think that's a start with the endpoint of having this talentless bald b*tch thrown out for good.
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I immediately felt this was the best thing to come out of it all.

But after thinking about it more, H & TKO are a match made in heaven, TKO are not interested in keeping the fans happy from a product stand-point, and therefore creativity is the least of their worries; to them, wrestling is kind of another investment toy which they will look to extort using every corporate trick imaginable.

So as long as the monopoly is bringing in a decent return, even if it isn’t mind blowing, they will be happy.

H will happily be their lapdog and can always help with cutting talent as needed / squeeze budgets when it comes to production & presentation.

Nick Khan is someone on the other hand who does care about the end customer & unfortunately I see his job more at risk then H, but Nick should have a trick or two up his sleeve; if there’s anyone who can help with dispose of H, it’s him, but I don’t actually think the TKO higher ups will ever do anything proactively to change the core product right now and therefore he & that vampire who sits on his ting marbles in gorilla are safe.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
That doesn't make him anything special in my eyes. That just means he's a leech who knows how to keep his job, probably by kissing his boss's @$$ and doing as he's told. There are plenty of people like that in every company. Good commentary is good commentary. I think you can easily tell the difference between a good commentator and a bad commentator. The fact that this is his level despite his years of experience just points to his incredible lack of talent
Click to expand...
Never said he was a good commentator. Said his voice was recognizable. I couldn't bear him during 2016-19 when he would repeat stuff like Vintage ___, Oh My, He's like a man possessed, etc etc
He has regressed much more now. Think Graves is better than him atm. Wade Barrett is probably the best one atm.
 
shaz619 said:
It’s because we know Cena’s genuine & somebody like him had to be that way to achieve what he has, from his inhuman routine/schedule to his ridiculous recovery physically, and mentally he was unbreakable, a pretty generous dude to and closest thing to a real life superman as goofy as that sounds. I am a big fan of The Rock, but Hollywood impacted his personality, I don’t think he’s a terrible guy or anything; but he doesn’t come across as authentic, a lot like Anthony Joshua during the height of his manufactured popularity @Suleiman
Click to expand...
Think he used to be a genuine person up until he finally broke out in Hollywood around 2011-12. Then he just got loco. Now he's just playing to the cameras and not fans.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I have no idea why you are suddenly behaving like such a petulant child. I am not the one who had an issue with you not liking this match, you are the one who had an issue with me liking it. All I did was address was your points; however ludicrous, aimless and illogical they were. Don't get into debates if you are too soft to see them through and get offended at minor disagreements.
Click to expand...
When did i have a problem with you liking it?
 
Caught bits of a recent match. Not sure how people watch this nonsense. It's overly produced and feels soulless.

God please take me back to mid 1999 where we saw the rise of Triple H.
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Caught bits of a recent match. Not sure how people watch this nonsense. It's overly produced and feels soulless.

God please take me back to mid 1999 where we saw the rise of Triple H.
Click to expand...
of all the names you could choose from Attitude Era, you decided to choose Trips' name :ROFLMAO:
 
shaz619 said:
It’s because we know Cena’s genuine & somebody like him had to be that way to achieve what he has, from his inhuman routine/schedule to his ridiculous recovery physically, and mentally he was unbreakable, a pretty generous dude to and closest thing to a real life superman as goofy as that sounds. I am a big fan of The Rock, but Hollywood impacted his personality, I don’t think he’s a terrible guy or anything; but he doesn’t come across as authentic, a lot like Anthony Joshua during the height of his manufactured popularity @Suleiman
Click to expand...
I’m a bit more nuanced on both. But of a grey area for both imo.

Think Cena has some skeletons in his closet, as does Rock. Think both can come off as fake and almost manufactured in their personalities and I do think both were at their most genuine at the beginning of their peak. There’s plenty of stories by multiple accounts of how dictator like Cena was behind the scenes, and I don’t think you get as far as either of them in Hollywood without selling a part of your soul… that’s why the original plan of the heel turn involving both and including this soul angle was captivating imo.

What Cena has achieved with make a wish foundation though really is amazing though. He changed the image of a pro wrestler in late 90s - early 2000s being a booze drinking, party going rock star to being an actual role model for kids. Can’t take that from him.

Joshua finally humbled and now on his own face turn by putting that jobber Jake Paul in his place. Usyk humbling for him was necessary.
 
shaz619 said:
I immediately felt this was the best thing to come out of it all.

But after thinking about it more, H & TKO are a match made in heaven, TKO are not interested in keeping the fans happy from a product stand-point, and therefore creativity is the least of their worries; to them, wrestling is kind of another investment toy which they will look to extort using every corporate trick imaginable.

So as long as the monopoly is bringing in a decent return, even if it isn’t mind blowing, they will be happy.

H will happily be their lapdog and can always help with cutting talent as needed / squeeze budgets when it comes to production & presentation.

Nick Khan is someone on the other hand who does care about the end customer & unfortunately I see his job more at risk then H, but Nick should have a trick or two up his sleeve; if there’s anyone who can help with dispose of H, it’s him, but I don’t actually think the TKO higher ups will ever do anything proactively to change the core product right now and therefore he & that vampire who sits on his ting marbles in gorilla are safe.
Click to expand...
his fake laughter while he hugged Cena amidst a sea of boo’s and you ____-up chants was so satisfying. Bud was tryna hide that pain with his laughter 😂
 
Austin Theory back to jobbing right after the tag team win is hilarious 😂

Vince watching his doofus son in law bury his prodigy on tonight’s raw: “Look how they massacred my boy”
:corleone

Being tossed around by punk like a twig there.

Takes some talent to book someone to win but then make them look like a dud right after.
 
Suleiman said:
Austin Theory back to jobbing right after the tag team win is hilarious 😂

Vince watching his doofus son in law bury his prodigy on tonight’s raw: “Look how they massacred my boy”
:corleone

Being tossed around by punk like a twig there.

Takes some talent to book someone to win but then make them look like a dud right after.
Click to expand...

WWE became very retarded. I think AEW is better now.
 
Suleiman said:
Top 3 themes ever:

1) Metallingus
2) I Walk Alone
3) Cult of Personality

Honorable Mentions: Written In My Face / No More Words / Slow Chemical
Click to expand...
I'd rate Slow chemical over I walk alone. Real American was brilliant as well. Taker's You're Gonna Pay was short lived but cool. DX, Mr Ass(underrated), Y2J, Basic Thuganomics, Cody's theme. HBK
Anthrax' WWF intro in AE takes the cake though.
These are songs.
For pure themes, I prefer the themes with minimal lyrics.

I'd rate them as,
Rest In Peace
If you smell
Loaded
Gangrel's theme was eerily awesome.

Honorable mentions: Austin, Roman's Head of the table, Ciampa's no one will survive,
 
Suleiman said:
Top 3 themes ever:

1) Metallingus
2) I Walk Alone
3) Cult of Personality

Honorable Mentions: Written In My Face / No More Words / Slow Chemical
Click to expand...
BunnyRabbit said:
I'd rate Slow chemical over I walk alone. Real American was brilliant as well. Taker's You're Gonna Pay was short lived but cool. DX, Mr Ass(underrated), Y2J, Basic Thuganomics, Cody's theme. HBK
Anthrax' WWF intro in AE takes the cake though.
These are songs.
For pure themes, I prefer the themes with minimal lyrics.

I'd rate them as,
Rest In Peace
If you smell
Loaded
Gangrel's theme was eerily awesome.

Honorable mentions: Austin, Roman's Head of the table, Ciampa's no one will survive,
Click to expand...

Some of my favorite entrances:

1) Hulk Hogan
2) Chris Jericho - Y2J
3) John Cena - Thugonomics
4) HBK
5) Hardy Boyz
6) Batista - I walk alone
 
shaz619 said:
I immediately felt this was the best thing to come out of it all.

But after thinking about it more, H & TKO are a match made in heaven, TKO are not interested in keeping the fans happy from a product stand-point, and therefore creativity is the least of their worries; to them, wrestling is kind of another investment toy which they will look to extort using every corporate trick imaginable.

So as long as the monopoly is bringing in a decent return, even if it isn’t mind blowing, they will be happy.

H will happily be their lapdog and can always help with cutting talent as needed / squeeze budgets when it comes to production & presentation.

Nick Khan is someone on the other hand who does care about the end customer & unfortunately I see his job more at risk then H, but Nick should have a trick or two up his sleeve; if there’s anyone who can help with dispose of H, it’s him, but I don’t actually think the TKO higher ups will ever do anything proactively to change the core product right now and therefore he & that vampire who sits on his ting marbles in gorilla are safe.
Click to expand...
That's all true but you we have to remember that Triple H is not Vince McMahon. At the end of the day, he's an employee of the company. And you never really know in wrestling. Sometimes companies to do listen to the fans if it gets to that point. This just feels like the beginning of the fans revolting against Triple H in a big way. Previously it was a pocket of fans who were unhappy about LA Knight's booking or the overpushing of Rollins but this feels like everyone kinda of revolting against him. And who knows? Who's to say a couple of more similar incidents in the future won't put his job in question?
 
Suleiman said:
Top 3 themes ever:

1) Metallingus
2) I Walk Alone
3) Cult of Personality

Honorable Mentions: Written In My Face / No More Words / Slow Chemical
Click to expand...
1. Cult of Personality
2. The Brood song
3. Break the Walls Down
4. Metallingus
5. Just Close Your Eyes

Honorable Mentions to Bray Wyatt's entrance music as The Fiend and during his last run. RIP.
 
Suleiman said:
Austin Theory back to jobbing right after the tag team win is hilarious 😂

Vince watching his doofus son in law bury his prodigy on tonight’s raw: “Look how they massacred my boy”
:corleone

Being tossed around by punk like a twig there.

Takes some talent to book someone to win but then make them look like a dud right after.
Click to expand...
Literally the only thing different is that his head is shaved now. Also, is it just me or has his ability in the ring not advanced at all in the last few years? The only cool thing he does is that rolling dropkick. Besides that, there's just a whole lot of chin locks and kicky/punchy
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Tell me you didn't watch the Attitude Era without actually telling me lol.

You kids stuck with watching boring out of shape guys like Gunther (that's his name?) these days. Feel genuinely sorry.
Click to expand...
Spoken like true nerd who doesn't understand anything about wrestling. I've followed pretty much Triple H's entire career from when he was carrying Shawn Michaels' jockstrap to present day, and I can safely say that there isn't a single wrestler with less talent who has been on top for as long as he has, or has occupied the level of importance that he has.

On his best day, he was 4/10 in the ring. His matches were plodding, boring, and a punishment to sit through. His promos were long, self-indulgent monologues where droned endlessly about the same recycled nonsense - "the business,” “this industry,” 'how everyone needed to respect him'. Whole lotta nonsense and bulls**t self-mythologizing that nobody actually cared about. You could train any roided up, half-motivated body-builder to do that, or those 20-minute Harley Race tribute matches.

The only reason Triple H has got as far as he has is because of the master politician he is. That’s what allowed him to maintain his level of importance, whether as a wrestler or later as an executive. Nobody else with his level of talent, ability and drawing power would be allowed to bury as many wrestlers as he did. Nobody else with his level of talent, ability and drawing power would have been allowed to stay on top for as long as he did either.

And the fact that you think Gunther is “out of shape” tells me you probably need to get your eyes checked as well. Don’t talk about things you clearly don’t understand, it just makes you come across as a fool. Watching one Gunther match doesn't make you an expert on modern wrestling.
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Tell me you didn't watch the Attitude Era without actually telling me lol.

You kids stuck with watching boring out of shape guys like Gunther (that's his name?) these days. Feel genuinely sorry.
Click to expand...
You should feel sorry for yourself for uttering nonsense and thinking anyone with a working brain will agree with you.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think you need to go back and see your own replies instead of asking me. All I did was answer every point you brought up, and then for some reason you got angry lol.
Click to expand...
Dont know I was on a long flight back home back then. Don't even remember what I typed earlier :ROFLMAO:
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Tell me you didn't watch the Attitude Era without actually telling me lol.

You kids stuck with watching boring out of shape guys like Gunther (that's his name?) these days. Feel genuinely sorry.
Click to expand...

I used to watch wrestling regularly. I watched from 2000 till 2009 non-stop.

After that, I took a break for many years. Came back recently.

I think modern day wrestling is terrible compared to attitude era and ruthless aggression era. I can't watch the whole thing. :inti
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think he just reads 100 inspiration quotes on Pinterest a day
Click to expand...
he makes a lot of them for his twitter as well.
But his tweets and never give up promo are is pretty good when you're down and need some inspiration. Same with Ziggler's promo against Miz.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Spoken like true nerd who doesn't understand anything about wrestling. I've followed pretty much Triple H's entire career from when he was carrying Shawn Michaels' jockstrap to present day, and I can safely say that there isn't a single wrestler with less talent who has been on top for as long as he has, or has occupied the level of importance that he has.

On his best day, he was 4/10 in the ring. His matches were plodding, boring, and a punishment to sit through. His promos were long, self-indulgent monologues where droned endlessly about the same recycled nonsense - "the business,” “this industry,” 'how everyone needed to respect him'. Whole lotta nonsense and bulls**t self-mythologizing that nobody actually cared about. You could train any roided up, half-motivated body-builder to do that, or those 20-minute Harley Race tribute matches.

The only reason Triple H has got as far as he has is because of the master politician he is. That’s what allowed him to maintain his level of importance, whether as a wrestler or later as an executive. Nobody else with his level of talent, ability and drawing power would be allowed to bury as many wrestlers as he did. Nobody else with his level of talent, ability and drawing power would have been allowed to stay on top for as long as he did either.

And the fact that you think Gunther is “out of shape” tells me you probably need to get your eyes checked as well. Don’t talk about things you clearly don’t understand, it just makes you come across as a fool. Watching one Gunther match doesn't make you an expert on modern wrestling.
Click to expand...

Guys like Gunther would have been a curtain jerkers during the great Attitude Era. Behave lol

Triple H was the top heel during the greatest era of wrestling but according to you he's not one of the top heels of all time #logic lol

Still have neckbeards like you furious two decades later.
 
sweep_shot said:
I used to watch wrestling regularly. I watched from 2000 till 2009 non-stop.

After that, I took a break for many years. Came back recently.

I think modern day wrestling is terrible compared to attitude era and ruthless aggression era. I can't watch the whole thing. :inti
Click to expand...

Every other guy either does a spear or a super kick when they slap their thighs 🤣

Guys have cringe catchphrases like Yeah or Yes yes yes.

Imagine things like that during the attitude era or ruthless aggression era
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Every other guy either does a spear or a super kick when they slap their thighs 🤣

Guys have cringe catchphrases like Yeah or Yes yes yes.

Imagine things like that during the attitude era or ruthless aggression era
Click to expand...

Yes. Finishers no longer mean much. LOL. Things look unnatural.

Also, heels can't be edgy anymore like they could in attitude era. They can get canceled out.

Compared to pre-2015 wrestling, it has become boring.
 
sweep_shot said:
Yes. Finishers no longer mean much. LOL. Things look unnatural.

Also, heels can't be edgy anymore like they could in attitude era. They can get canceled out.

Compared to pre-2015 wrestling, it has become boring.
Click to expand...

Bro people be hitting their finishers like 3/4 times before they get the win.

Back then finishers meant finishers.

Everything just seems so fake now. I was reading that fans were booing the ending to Cena's last match because they didn't like the booking decision. This is how much the business has been exposed. I don't understand why anyone bothers watching the product.
 
Raja Ishtiaq said:
Bro people be hitting their finishers like 3/4 times before they get the win.

Back then finishers meant finishers.

Everything just seems so fake now. I was reading that fans were booing the ending to Cena's last match because they didn't like the booking decision. This is how much the business has been exposed. I don't understand why anyone bothers watching the product.
Click to expand...

I returned to witness John Cena's final year. He debuted in WWE when I was 12. So, there was a nostalgia factor.

WWE need to make things more natural like how it was 15-20 years ago. Nothing feels natural currently (other than CM Punk maybe).
 
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