Statpadder Inc
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No true scotsman fallacy and laughably false
That is impossible, I am afraid no Indian party could ever do that
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Contact the PP Team
[VIDEO] BJP leader threatens to ‘slaughter 200,000 Muslims’ over cow incident
- Thread starter The Bald Eagle
- Start date
Stewie
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Feel free to open a separate thread on the topic and post a poll asking Pakistanis how they feel about Pakistan being a muslim state. You will get your answer.
regarding the second- well you know what they say about opinions. They are like an unmentionable body part and everybody has one.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Is Jainism different to the Buddhism practised in Myanmar? They don't seem to take the idea of ahimsa so seriously over there.
JaDed
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I’m sure a simple google would had sufficed , Buddhism can be radical as seen historically (Lanka China Myanmar Japan).
Jainism and Buddhism are entirely different religions.
The most radical Jains would go about being most non -violent even to vegetables, insects.
Religion is judged by its followers and Jain Radicals actually are extremly Non-violent.
Responding to some comparisons made in this thread between RSS and the Muslim League/TLP/all parties in Pakistan: we must not treat Hindu nationalism and Muslim nationalism as monolithic and entirely analogous categories.
There is a spectrum. In the case of Hindu nationalism that spectrum ranges from a ‘soft’ position which sees Hinduism as occupying a place in India as first among equals to the minority and politically marginalised position of a Hindu theocracy. Within these two positions, there are other shades of Hindu nationalist opinion.
It would be fair to say that in general Hindu nationalism is not primarily about theology, nor are Hindu nationalists motivated chiefly by a desire to establish ‘Hindu laws’. The Hindu Rashtra is more a cultural vision, which is animated by issues pertaining to identity, and concerned with reforming the way the citizens of the country think and relate to India.
The case of RSS is particularly interesting. It was set up with the specific objective of engendering a transformation in the subjective consciousness of the people of India. The RSS were seeking not so much a revolution from above as a revolution from below. It was to be an anthropological revolution: the creation of a new man; an active, muscular new man. The principal domain was therefore the cultural and social spheres rather than the political arena. One swayamsevak recorded in his diary: “Government cannot change the nation; selfless people change it.”
Not all Hindu nationalists were impressed with the singular focus on character building. Savarkar noted in a pithy comment: “The epitaph for the RSS volunteer will be that he was born, he joined the RSS and he dies without accomplishing anything.”
Of course the RSS itself is and was not a homogeneous body and there has always existed those who have pushed it to take a more politically activist stance, a position that became more influential after independence.
The final point to make in respect of the RSS is that - like many European movements that emerged in the inter-war period - it was a uniformed movement. This was the era that witnessed the rise of the masses combined with the availability of new techniques of propaganda. Symbols - like clothing - became useful affective tools to engineer the shaping of souls and the making of new societies. There was also - perhaps partly a legacy of the first World War - a certain vision of violence possessing a therapeutic quality. Uniforms also provided a sense of brotherhood and belonging.
Within Pakistan there is also a spectrum of opinion from those who seek to ‘secularise’ religious identity, to those who aim to implement a codified version of the shari’a. In the case of parties led by the ulama or ‘Islamists’, there is no question as to their desire to implement the law of God, as they interpret it. This is different to the mainstream Hindu nationalist movement in India which is primarily concerned with culture. The question for such parties in Pakistan is not whether Islamic law should apply but rather how it should be implemented.
But there has historically been disagreement within and between the parties. Mawdudi, for instance, spoke of the ulama as those individuals “steeped in conservatism to such an extent that they have lost touch with the modern world. Their education has lost all contact with the practical problems of life and has become barren and lifeless.” For ulama like the Deoband, Taqi Usmani, the problem with Mawdudi and his ilk was that, “in their zeal to counter secularism, and in their focus on the political dimension of the shari’a, they have made all of Islam a political religion, instead of making politics a part of religion.” Nevertheless in spite of critical differences such parties have often managed to present a united front when seeking to undermine their opponents.
In turn, such parties that focus on the implementation of the shari’a, need to be distinguished from the modernists, who in fact spearheaded the campaign for Pakistan. For the modernists Islam and the shari’a were not coterminous. In contrast to juristically inclined parties, the modernists believed foremost, to quote the scholar Muhammad Qasim Zaman, “that Islam had a pronounced ethical dimension to it, and it was these ethical precepts that would guide the new state.” Rather than a set of rigid laws as interpreted by the ulama, they saw in Islam a set of general principles and a moral spirit, capable of being adapted to the modern world. The ‘ecumenical’ modernists saw Islam as a focus for unity. This unity was stressed against both theological distinctions amongst Muslims and non-religious differences - such as ties of kinship - that also divided Muslims.
In Pakistan, Islamic modernism reached its political apogee during the rule of Ayub Khan. The Central Institute of Islamic Research set up by the government in 1960 reflected modernist principles, with the government explaining that the purpose of the institute was “to define Islam in terms of its fundamentals in a rational and liberal manner and to emphasise…the basic Islamic ideas of universal brotherhood, tolerance and social justice” as well as to “interpret the teachings of Islam in such a way as to bring out its dynamic character in the context of the intellectual and scientific progress of the modern world.”
Of course the modernists have become a beleaguered force. This was not inevitable and there are many reasons for this, but to merely bundle the modernists with the more juristically inclined parties represented by the ulama and Islamists, is to seriously misread Pakistani politics and misunderstood the many varying aspirations and competing visions on the role of Islam in the state.
In short it is complex and a 'primary colour' approach does scant justice to historical understanding.
There is a spectrum. In the case of Hindu nationalism that spectrum ranges from a ‘soft’ position which sees Hinduism as occupying a place in India as first among equals to the minority and politically marginalised position of a Hindu theocracy. Within these two positions, there are other shades of Hindu nationalist opinion.
It would be fair to say that in general Hindu nationalism is not primarily about theology, nor are Hindu nationalists motivated chiefly by a desire to establish ‘Hindu laws’. The Hindu Rashtra is more a cultural vision, which is animated by issues pertaining to identity, and concerned with reforming the way the citizens of the country think and relate to India.
The case of RSS is particularly interesting. It was set up with the specific objective of engendering a transformation in the subjective consciousness of the people of India. The RSS were seeking not so much a revolution from above as a revolution from below. It was to be an anthropological revolution: the creation of a new man; an active, muscular new man. The principal domain was therefore the cultural and social spheres rather than the political arena. One swayamsevak recorded in his diary: “Government cannot change the nation; selfless people change it.”
Not all Hindu nationalists were impressed with the singular focus on character building. Savarkar noted in a pithy comment: “The epitaph for the RSS volunteer will be that he was born, he joined the RSS and he dies without accomplishing anything.”
Of course the RSS itself is and was not a homogeneous body and there has always existed those who have pushed it to take a more politically activist stance, a position that became more influential after independence.
The final point to make in respect of the RSS is that - like many European movements that emerged in the inter-war period - it was a uniformed movement. This was the era that witnessed the rise of the masses combined with the availability of new techniques of propaganda. Symbols - like clothing - became useful affective tools to engineer the shaping of souls and the making of new societies. There was also - perhaps partly a legacy of the first World War - a certain vision of violence possessing a therapeutic quality. Uniforms also provided a sense of brotherhood and belonging.
Within Pakistan there is also a spectrum of opinion from those who seek to ‘secularise’ religious identity, to those who aim to implement a codified version of the shari’a. In the case of parties led by the ulama or ‘Islamists’, there is no question as to their desire to implement the law of God, as they interpret it. This is different to the mainstream Hindu nationalist movement in India which is primarily concerned with culture. The question for such parties in Pakistan is not whether Islamic law should apply but rather how it should be implemented.
But there has historically been disagreement within and between the parties. Mawdudi, for instance, spoke of the ulama as those individuals “steeped in conservatism to such an extent that they have lost touch with the modern world. Their education has lost all contact with the practical problems of life and has become barren and lifeless.” For ulama like the Deoband, Taqi Usmani, the problem with Mawdudi and his ilk was that, “in their zeal to counter secularism, and in their focus on the political dimension of the shari’a, they have made all of Islam a political religion, instead of making politics a part of religion.” Nevertheless in spite of critical differences such parties have often managed to present a united front when seeking to undermine their opponents.
In turn, such parties that focus on the implementation of the shari’a, need to be distinguished from the modernists, who in fact spearheaded the campaign for Pakistan. For the modernists Islam and the shari’a were not coterminous. In contrast to juristically inclined parties, the modernists believed foremost, to quote the scholar Muhammad Qasim Zaman, “that Islam had a pronounced ethical dimension to it, and it was these ethical precepts that would guide the new state.” Rather than a set of rigid laws as interpreted by the ulama, they saw in Islam a set of general principles and a moral spirit, capable of being adapted to the modern world. The ‘ecumenical’ modernists saw Islam as a focus for unity. This unity was stressed against both theological distinctions amongst Muslims and non-religious differences - such as ties of kinship - that also divided Muslims.
In Pakistan, Islamic modernism reached its political apogee during the rule of Ayub Khan. The Central Institute of Islamic Research set up by the government in 1960 reflected modernist principles, with the government explaining that the purpose of the institute was “to define Islam in terms of its fundamentals in a rational and liberal manner and to emphasise…the basic Islamic ideas of universal brotherhood, tolerance and social justice” as well as to “interpret the teachings of Islam in such a way as to bring out its dynamic character in the context of the intellectual and scientific progress of the modern world.”
Of course the modernists have become a beleaguered force. This was not inevitable and there are many reasons for this, but to merely bundle the modernists with the more juristically inclined parties represented by the ulama and Islamists, is to seriously misread Pakistani politics and misunderstood the many varying aspirations and competing visions on the role of Islam in the state.
In short it is complex and a 'primary colour' approach does scant justice to historical understanding.
Justcrazy
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Practicality in the sense you need violence of some kind to maintain Peace in the society.
I do not think they need protection , they are pretty affluent and secuted. Parsis numbers are dwindling because they do not accept others to become Parsi unless both parents are same.
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One who eats beef shows Lord Shiva’s picture in Parliament: Rajasthan BJP chief’s veiled jibe at Rahul Gandhi
"If someone labels Hindus as terrorists, calls them violent, and opposes Ram Mandir, will we remain silent? Those who mock President Droupadi Murmu for her skin colour will continue to succeed if we remain a mute spectator," Rajasthan BJP chief C P Joshi said
In an apparent attack on Congress leader Rahul Gandhi, Rajasthan BJP chief C P Joshi has said those who “consume beef” show picture of Lord Shiva in Parliament.
Joshi made the remarks at a party meeting in Dausa on Wednesday. A video of his speech has surfaced on social media.
“In the India-China fight, there is tension on the international border and Rahul Gandhi sits with the Chinese ambassador… One who consumes beef brings a picture of Mahadev to Parliament. This cannot be tolerated,” Joshi said, without taking any names.
Source: The Indian Express
Bhaijaan
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I don’t support this however the minorities must learn to behave and if they don’t strict action must be taken against them for as long we are not talking about riots and killings. I do not support mob justice. This has to be sorted out by the local police.
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@rpant_gabba you have an issue with major eating beef outside India. Now recall the terrorist definition that you cherry picked and apply it to yourself as you are dictating others what to eat or not.
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For those asking about stats
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sweep_shot
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Some eye-opening statistics.
Did any BJP poster here acknowledge it let alone condemn it? They always seem to make excuses.
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Congress chief Mallikarjun Kharge says BJP is a party of terrorists
Congress President Mallikarjun Kharge responded sharply to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's remark that Congress is running an "urban Naxal" party and called the BJP a party of terrorists.
Dismissing PM Modi’s claim, Kharge said, “Modi always labels Congress as an urban Naxal party... It's his habit. But what about his own party? BJP is a party of terrorists, involved in lynchings. Modi has no right to make such accusations".
Prime Minister Modi has twice, on various occasions, stated that urban Naxals run the Congress.
On October 5, PM Narendra Modi stated that the Congress is being controlled by a group of urban Naxals and urged people to come together to defeat the party's "dangerous agenda".
PM Modi said this while addressing a gathering near Washim in Maharashtra’s Vidarbha region ahead of the assembly elections.
“They think that if we all unite, then their agenda to divide the country will fail. Everyone can see how closely Congress stands with people who don’t harbour good intentions for India. The Congress wants to keep Dalits as Dalits, the poor as poor. So, beware of the Congress. Urban Naxals are running the Congress. The party wants to divide the country, so it is trying to divide us. So, be united to foil the Congress party’s plot. This is the time to be together,” he had said in the rally.
He again mentioned “urban naxals” after the BJP won Haryana Assembly elections on October 9.
After virtually launching various development projects in Maharashtra on October 9, PM Modi said the BJP's victory in the Haryana elections shows the mood in the country and the people have shown they will not fall prey to the hateful conspiracies of the Congress and "urban Naxals".
Congress chief Mallikarjun Kharge says BJP is a party of terrorists
Congress President Mallikarjun Kharge sharply rejected Prime Minister Modi's claim that Congress is an "urban Naxal" party, accusing the BJP of being a party of terrorists involved in lynchings.
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Primary schools to introduce lessons on cows: Rajasthan Minister
In an effort to introduce students to the significance of cows, Rajasthan education minister Madan Dilawar has announced plans to incorporate information about cows into primary school curricula.
"We will talk to scholars and experts and, if possible, will try to add information on cows in primary school books," says Madan Dilawar.
The minister also mentioned efforts to screen educational films on cows to enhance students' understanding.
This announcement follows a directive from the Animal Husbandry Department, which recently advised officials to use the term "destitute" instead of "stray" when referring to cows.
The move has sparked discussions as political tensions rise ahead of the by-elections, with many debating the motivations behind the initiative.
Primary schools to introduce lessons on cows: Rajasthan Minister
Experts and scholars will be consulted to include cow-related information in textbooks, with plans to show educational films on the topic.
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Lol... Will the include a lesson on GOAT too? If not for herbivore equality then for the sake of football fans
Primary schools to introduce lessons on cows: Rajasthan Minister
In an effort to introduce students to the significance of cows, Rajasthan education minister Madan Dilawar has announced plans to incorporate information about cows into primary school curricula.
"We will talk to scholars and experts and, if possible, will try to add information on cows in primary school books," says Madan Dilawar.
The minister also mentioned efforts to screen educational films on cows to enhance students' understanding.
This announcement follows a directive from the Animal Husbandry Department, which recently advised officials to use the term "destitute" instead of "stray" when referring to cows.
The move has sparked discussions as political tensions rise ahead of the by-elections, with many debating the motivations behind the initiative.
Primary schools to introduce lessons on cows: Rajasthan Minister
Experts and scholars will be consulted to include cow-related information in textbooks, with plans to show educational films on the topic.www.indiatoday.in
Aang_The_last_airbender
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Maybe there are no BJP posters. :
Since the response was expected from "BJP posters" I thought I am ineligible.The indepth detail of the stats show that the cow related violent events against Muslims in a vast country like India were 32 over a period of 5 years (2016-2020).
Now we can discuss about the raw numbers compared to overall size and population of India, if you wish.
Cow Protection Legislation and Vigilante Violence in India
In India, over 500,000 students signed up for the government-sponsored nationwide ‘Cow Science’ exam this year, which was scheduled for 25 February 2021.
acleddata.com
sweep_shot
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Did any BJP poster condemn this BJP leader's statement? I am yet to see a single condemnation from them.
Aang_The_last_airbender
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What's a BJP poster?
cricketjoshila
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Anyone who the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis don't like is a BJP poster.
It's sort of how they say they are against Zionists not jews. That's how they hide their anti semitism.
Or against Hindutva and not Hindus.
So its againist BJP Indians and not Indians.
Its just a way to justify their hatred.
Doesn't work.
cricketjoshila
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Lol. Why its making pakistanis worry?
You took land in 1947, you stay there yet your concern is what is taught in India.
Hitman
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Couldn't keep that intact either.
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Wanna ask a genuine question. WHy Just cows?? Why not Buffalos?? Camels?? Horse?
cricketjoshila
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TBH I don't care. Their country their problem.
But you see pakistanis are so interested in what's happening in India.Why no one is able to answer.
Cpt. Rishwat
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So you are coming to a Pakistan forum asking why are Pakistanis asking what is taught in India? Do you see any irony in this? At all?
aboveandbeyond
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I've seen you ample times, specially leading up to the Elections when your posts were suggesting of a guy with firm interest. And Remember your on a PAKISTANI forum.
Question is why does it irritate you when Pakistani or anyone bring up discussion about Shining India?
cricketjoshila
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I am on a Pakistani forum mainly discussing cricket. On TP i hardly participate in non Indian topics.
The only time i participated in political thread of Pakistan was about Imran his NCM and related threads.
I don't know about pakistanis but most of the 1.5bn Indians will tell any foreigner trying to tell Indians how they must live to shove it.
cricketjoshila
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I am coming to a Pakistani forum and seeing so many threads about India. These are the same people who 75 years ago took their land and separated.
Do you see the irony?
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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They took their land and went their separate ways, but what does that have to do with them discussing India on their own forums? Isn’t it a bit like showing up to a neighbor’s barbecue, uninvited, just to complain about the food?
sweep_shot
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They took their land and went their separate ways, but what does that have to do with them discussing India on their own forums? Isn’t it a bit like showing up to a neighbor’s barbecue, uninvited, just to complain about the food?
Exactly.
Some Indians are very entitled. They think they can go to non-Indian platforms and tell them what to write and what not to write. LOL.
cricketjoshila
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People like you think its their right to poke their noses in others matters.
No wonder pakistan is a economic nut case and BD is on the way.
sweep_shot
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BJP = Bharatiya Jangiya Party/Bharatiya Janata Party.
A BJP poster is someone who publicly or secretly supports the above party. There are many BJP posters on this forum.
Anyway, I see no condemnation from you. I am not suprised at all.
JaDed
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Hypocrisy galore just asked someone not to be a hypocrite..
That stat does not tell you the reality of Hindu-Muslim conflict. Does it not occur to you that there is no other religion in India that has issues with the Majority ?
Just as a very prominent example ... when you have a community that engages in such brazen acts like refusing to acknowledge and vacate extremely holy Hindu sites then there is bound to be a backlash. You expect Hindus to just shut up and put up with that sort of blatant rogue behavior ? Not happening.
So let me know if you want to discuss the root cause of all Hindu Muslim communal issues ( Unlikely and this when you will quickly exit this thread for obvious reasons ).
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cricketjoshila
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BJP and Hindus were brought into the discussion.
That's where Indians here started replying.
I don't care what happens in BD unless refugees start appearing at our borders.
FYI the Iranians asked India to convince Israel regarding Gaza.
You can keep talking. Anyone anywhere listening?
That's where Indians here started replying.
I don't care what happens in BD unless refugees start appearing at our borders.
FYI the Iranians asked India to convince Israel regarding Gaza.
You can keep talking. Anyone anywhere listening?
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cricketjoshila
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Let him live in his fantasy world.
sweep_shot
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I responded but it was deleted. I am too lazy to type all those again.
Anyway, I hope you will acknowledge those statistics (post #330).
sweep_shot
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I live in reality. You live in BJP fantasy world.
Entirely your problem.
so I take it that you are not really interested in going to the absolute root of the communal issues involving Muslims? All you want is for everyone to pretend that muslims are not at fault and are always the victims?
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sweep_shot
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It seems like you are justifying violence from cow vigilante mob. Correct me if I am wrong.
It seems you are not willing to even acknowledge that Muslims have a Huge problem when it comes to intolerance ? They never did any wrong... correct?
sweep_shot
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There are good and bad in every group. You shouldn't generalize like that.
If a person (whether Muslim, Hindu, or another group) does something wrong, it should be handled by law enforcement. Mob justice is not the way to go.
Do you condemn cow vigilante mobs?
Why does this problem not exist with other Religions and Hindus? Its easy to say don't generalize when the reality is that ( for exampke) vast majority of Muslims will doggedly and blatantly try to hang on to sacred Hindu temples when it is crystal clear that a temple was destroyed and a mosque built right over it. When there are people like that in 21st century there is very little scope for any peaceful coexistence. Let me know if you want more such examples of blatant displays of Intolerance.
So entirely the fault of Muslims.
sweep_shot
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It seems like you do not wish to condemn violence from cow vigilante mob. You are deflecting.
It seems that you are not truly interested in finding out the root cause of the violence ... because then it will expose your blatant hypocrisy.
As I said right from the beginning the entire agenda here is to NEVER EVER EVER go into a root cause analysis but demand action against the vigilante groups because in your mind you are conditioned to belive that the actions of the Muslims was never wrong at all. So what if cows were killed, temple's destroyed, people beheaded and on and on and on .... these are all sanctioned legit acts per your religion.
So there thats the FULL AND COMPLETE story on why it is only Muslims that find themselves on the receiving end of vigilante justice. But the good news is the solution is also entirely in the hands of Muslims. Stop bigotry and intolerance and the violence will end on its own
HalBass9
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The root cause is Indians are inherently bigots be it from any religion.
HalBass9
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Exercise caution with this topic, as some proponents of Hindutva may argue for giving rights to ancient figures or symbols, perhaps even extinct creatures, over Muslim communities whose ancestors converted to Islam.
As can be seen from how a literally minuscule minority like the Parsis and Jews experience ZERO acts of violence against them in India ? There is however one very big bad apple in the bag ... with a track record that would make the Nazis look like saints and that's your fellow co-religionsts. Bloody hell you guys should be the very last people on Gods green earth to talk about religious tolerance and bigotry.
And more people are inducted into the circle of violence forcing others to take up arms to protect from the nonsense. Thanks for proving my point.
And I see that you will now deftly move on to a different topic ? What happened to your original concern about Vigilante violence when the full story came out ? What did I tell you upfront ?
Ahh !!! such a wonderfull idea. Sure. In the civilized world thats how disputes are supposed to be resolved. Except when it involves Muslims!!. Most prominent example being the Babri Masjid dispute.
Tell me how did the "law and order" option work out in the case of Babri Masjid dispute ? To be clear I am referring to the time period well before 1992 when the Mosque was brought down by VHP + Bajrang dal activists ?. I bring that up because it is THE MOST prominent dispute that was ONLY resolved due to Vigilante violence ( the topic you think deserves condemnation ) . Do you even know what happened back then ? What does the Post #330 that you keep harping about has to say about that dispute? I literally dare you and your fellow like minded co-religionsts to answer that question. ( and again let me remind you that YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER answer it forget backing up your response with proper facts and logic ).
And I very well know that you will most likely never show up on this thread ever again and if you do you will dodge deflect and do your damnedest to not touch that question I posed above with a 10 foot pole but hey miracles could happen.
As I have said before ... you have absolutely no moral or ethically viable stand on this topic that can stand even the most basic scrutiny.
And rest assured I will keep reminding you ( lyour like minded co-religionists ) of this post. But in the unlikely event that ff and when you are done explaining it with facts and logic .. I have many more such episodes. So have at it if you think your fellow religionists in India are such pure angels that you think are deserving of
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