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Why anti Muslim bias is so profound among Hindutva supporters?

Stewie said:
well then you have those freedoms in a free society. Regardless of how much disdain I have for such stuff, unfortunately you are protected under free speech in a free country. Legally, I would expend all resources to oppose your activity, and I will b e exercising my legal right as well.

Its not as if the Muslim disagreement has stopped any atheist, Islamophobe, etc to not try and hurl such filth at our beliefs. So I don't know why this is even being brought up. The difference is one is allowed legally in proper secular and free countries and one activity is not allowed in a so-called secular and free state. Hope you catch my drift.

P.S I am still appalled at your attempts to somehow equate the two situations. They are not the same. I should be able to eat in the privacy of my home and you can do whatever it is you want in the privacy of your home.
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I'm always amused that religious folks are outraged at filth hurled on their beliefs when the very religious books they hold so sacred say terrible things about non-believers and condemn them to the deepest pits of hell with sadistic tortures.

Not that I have ever hurled filth. I have always respected believers even if I have zero respect for the actual beliefs

I think though that your only conception of secularism is Western i.e. no space for the beliefs of any religion in public society. Indian (and sub-continental) religious beliefs are too deep and emotional for that form of secularism, much as I would love it. We have to accommodate loudspeakers for azaan and Durga Puja, bans on cow slaughter and blasphemy, we have to close off major thoroughfares for Muharram and Ganesh visarjan. It's an imperfect form of secularism but it's better than living in a Hindu Rashtra or Islamic state since there is reasonable separation of church and state.
 
Stewie said:
That is ridiculous. Why do you have to "keep it private"?

Religious beliefs and traditions are nothing to be ashamed of. My take is "as long as it is not imposed on anyone" it should be ok.

I am not imposing others don't drink alcohol and don't eat pork. I am fine if those who want to do it do it. I am not imposing on anyone to not worship idols.

Same way if Hindus don't want to kill cows and eat meat, I respect that.. but don't "impose" this stuff on anyone.

Its rather a simple concept if you finally decide the verbal and mental gymnastics to force cow laughter ban do little to hide its anti-secular and anti-democratic nature.
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Preventing someone from having beef is imposing religion on them.

Preventing someone from drawing cartoons is imposing religion on them.

One is attributed to Hinduism, the other to Islam.
 
RexRex said:
What matters is how the mainstream majority followers of that religion interprets those verses. If they interpret them in a manner that sanctions violence in this day and age, then there is no free pass for them .. their religion is absolutely responsible.

So do you have examples of this ? You must have otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up.
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Why just mainstream and majority? Why fringe doesn't matter? Anders Breivik called himself a christian crusader.

Just become most don't take religious text seriously and follow the modern value system, doesn't mean religions should get a pass, because they contain violent verses and they have inspired people to violence.

You were quick to blame hindutva ( I am a hindutva follower) just because of actions of a few. Why shouldn't same standard be applied to religions?
 
RexRex said:
Preventing someone from having beef is imposing religion on them.

Preventing someone from drawing cartoons is imposing religion on them.

One is attributed to Hinduism, the other to Islam.
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You didn't answer how I am stopping you from consuming beef in USA?

And you didn't explain why you mocked and attacked my faith.
 
Regarding beef ban, KaamaDhenu or the holy cow that grants the needs of people is common to all Indic religions.

Beef ban is implemented in India keeping in mind the religious sentiments of all Indic religions.

It is banned even in Srilanka. The Buddhist majority there demanded cow slaughter ban.
www.thehindu.com

Sri Lanka bans cattle slaughter

Some Sinhala-Buddhist groups had demanded a ban.
www.thehindu.com www.thehindu.com
 
RexRex said:
Preventing someone from having beef is imposing religion on them.

Preventing someone from drawing cartoons is imposing religion on them.

One is attributed to Hinduism, the other to Islam.
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If you want to draw cartoons that are not disrespectful, sure go ahead. But if you draw insulting caricatures, is that really the same?

Do you think what's more offensive? me eating beef or me making hurtful accusations on Ram, Krishna, Hanuman, Kali, whatever other deities in Hinduism?

Drawing caricatures of the Holy Prophet is forbidden for Muslims. If you want to do that, I would have no issues with it. Please ago right ahead. But if you do it with a malicious intent to either throw a whole community in bad light, or make negative insinuations about a whole demographic, how is that ok in any book? How is that any different from anti-semitism or racism?

By the way racism is protected under free speech too, isn't it? Is not a crime if I say something bad about someone. At least that's what my limited understanding says about democratic laws. You may end up paying for racism through some other way but legally the First Amendment in the US protects it.
 
CricketCartoons said:
You were quick to blame hindutva ( I am a hindutva follower) just because of actions of a few. Why shouldn't same standard be applied to religions?
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Not because of the actions of a few .. I've always considered hindutva to be an insidious political movement by its very nature, designed to embolden its followers into engaging in vigilantism. It is not some innocent coalition that gets twisted into evil by the extremist fringe.

For example, hindutva is what brought down the Babri Masjid - illegally I might add.
 
RexRex said:
Not because of the actions of a few .. I've always considered hindutva to be an insidious political movement by its very nature, designed to embolden its followers into engaging in vigilantism. It is not some innocent coalition that gets twisted into evil by the extremist fringe.

For example, hindutva is what brought down the Babri Masjid - illegally I might add.
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No revolution and no resistance is innocent.

There is a big difference between what is legal and what is just. Law vs justice. Where there is no rule of law, and delay in justice, vigilante justice will come to fill the void. Babri demolition was the result of that. The deus ex machina.

Hindutva is Hinduism which resists.

You hate hinduism and so you naturally hate hindutva. But what you are accusing Hindutva of, worse can be said about major religions, including the one you follow, which has the blood of many. So why the double standards?
 
Stewie said:
If you want to draw cartoons that are not disrespectful, sure go ahead. But if you draw insulting caricatures, is that really the same?

Do you think what's more offensive? me eating beef or me making hurtful accusations on Ram, Krishna, Hanuman, Kali, whatever other deities in Hinduism?

Drawing caricatures of the Holy Prophet is forbidden for Muslims. If you want to do that, I would have no issues with it. Please ago right ahead. But if you do it with a malicious intent to either throw a whole community in bad light, or make negative insinuations about a whole demographic, how is that ok in any book? How is that any different from anti-semitism or racism?

By the way racism is protected under free speech too, isn't it? Is not a crime if I say something bad about someone. At least that's what my limited understanding says about democratic laws. You may end up paying for racism through some other way but legally the First Amendment in the US protects it.
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They have spent a long time arguing about what's offensive and you seem to be dedicating a lot of time in a condescending way to tell them they shouldn't be offended and offering them alternatives to be offended about.

Now this may not have been your intention but it's the way it's coming across.

To some of the posters here eating beef is the ultimate blasphemy. We should respect their sentiments rather than try to downplay their emotions. It is their religion and that's how they feel. That should be enough instead of arguing back and forth asking them to provide proofs, downloading their emotions and telling them it's not offensive just because YOU don't think it's as offensive as insulting a god. That's very poor line of argumentation imo. You want to press your opinion on what's offensive/not offensive to them based on your ideology


Beef consumption in India cannot exist in private like you want it to. It requires the resting of cattle, slaughterhouses, delivery systems and regulations. It just doesn't appear on a plate in a dark room in someones house.

If they consider it as blasphemous and horrible act we should at the very least respect their right to feel that way.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
They have spent a long time arguing about what's offensive and you seem to be dedicating a lot of time in a condescending way to tell them they shouldn't be offended and offering them alternatives to be offended about.

Now this may not have been your intention but it's the way it's coming across.

To some of the posters here eating beef is the ultimate blasphemy. We should respect their sentiments rather than try to downplay their emotions. It is their religion and that's how they feel. That should be enough instead of arguing back and forth asking them to provide proofs, downloading their emotions and telling them it's not offensive just because YOU don't think it's as offensive as insulting a god. That's very poor line of argumentation imo. You want to press your opinion on what's offensive/not offensive to them based on your ideology


Beef consumption in India cannot exist in private like you want it to. It requires the resting of cattle, slaughterhouses, delivery systems and regulations. It just doesn't appear on a plate in a dark room in someones house.

If they consider it as blasphemous and horrible act we should at the very least respect their right to feel that way.
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Well my apologies if I am coming across that way but perhaps my somewhat standoffish tone is coming from the fact the same participants in this debate have asked me for proof of certain faith based claims I have made. I am really not too hung up over them proving it to me.

Also, my eating beef is not somehow disrespecting their faith and their belief in the sacred cow. I am not asking them to start eating beef. I am simply asking for the freedom of doing so myself. Muslims in India are denied of this freedom and yet they claim India to be a secular state. They poke holes in the Muslim way of life day in and day out as can be seen even in this thread but then they start citing respecting other people's faith when it comes to cow slaughter ban. I feel this is hypocrisy.

If they want to feel its blasphemous and horrible, I think nobody is stopping them from it. But they should also not stop me from doing what I want.

Hope that's clear.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Hindutva is Hinduism which resists.

You hate hinduism and so you naturally hate hindutva. But what you are accusing Hindutva of, worse can be said about major religions, including the one you follow, which has the blood of many. So why the double standards?
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Hindutva is a corrupt vigilante version of hinduism and given the backing of a political party currently in power. That is dangerous. What is its equivalent today amongst other religions in other countries ? Maybe you might know.

I don't hate hinduism btw, I think it's a pretty cool religion.
 
CricketCartoons said:
You didn't answer how I am stopping you from consuming beef in USA?
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That was a hypothetical I put to Red_indian based on his logic of 'we must be sensitive to other people's beliefs and sacrifice our own diet' ; I didn't say it was actually happening right now.
 
@Stewie , Partition of India on religious grounds precisely happened so that Muslims can follow their religion and practice it without fear of persecution from Hindus.

Muslims got their homeland and they can eat whatever they want there. No one questions them.

Hindus along with Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists got their homeland in India and they can practice their religion whichever way they choose to. India is a democracy and beef ban was implemented as majority Hindus want.

I don’t know how this is any form of persecution of Muslims. The law is there and just follow it. Why are we still discussing beef ban in India?

Every country has their laws that pander to the native culture. You cannot slaughter dogs for their meat in the west just because it is part of Chinese and East Asian diet. The person would be arrested for animal cruelty. Most western people consider dog more than a pet. They are crazy about them.
 
RexRex said:
Hindutva is a corrupt vigilante version of hinduism and given the backing of a political party currently in power. That is dangerous. What is its equivalent today amongst other religions in other countries ? Maybe you might know.

I don't hate hinduism btw, I think it's a pretty cool religion.
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Not sure about corrupt. But Hindutva is an unapologetic version of Hinduism. They give it as good as they take it.

Hindutva wants to eradicate caste system and preserve the native culture. There are some extremist elements like the people in the video that was posted who were manhandling an old Muslim man. They certainly bring bad name to Hindutva ideology.

Hinduism is also an organized religion now. There are some violent individuals like every religion has. Those individuals must be arrested and thrown away in prison. Any issue they have must be sorted out in court. As you have said, vigilante justice should never be encouraged.
 
Stewie said:
well then you have those freedoms in a free society. Regardless of how much disdain I have for such stuff, unfortunately you are protected under free speech in a free country. Legally, I would expend all resources to oppose your activity, and I will b e exercising my legal right as well.

Its not as if the Muslim disagreement has stopped any atheist, Islamophobe, etc to not try and hurl such filth at our beliefs. So I don't know why this is even being brought up. The difference is one is allowed legally in proper secular and free countries and one activity is not allowed in a so-called secular and free state. Hope you catch my drift.

P.S I am still appalled at your attempts to somehow equate the two situations. They are not the same. I should be able to eat in the privacy of my home and you can do whatever it is you want in the privacy of your home.
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Exactly. You yourself accept it. And thats why people have a problem .
When in minority , want full secularism. But when you become majority - want Islamic law and to heck with minorities rights.
 
Champ_Pal said:
@Stewie , Partition of India on religious grounds precisely happened so that Muslims can follow their religion and practice it without fear of persecution from Hindus.

Muslims got their homeland and they can eat whatever they want there. No one questions them.

Hindus along with Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists got their homeland in India and they can practice their religion whichever way they choose to. India is a democracy and beef ban was implemented as majority Hindus want.

I don’t know how this is any form of persecution of Muslims. The law is there and just follow it. Why are we still discussing beef ban in India?

Every country has their laws that pander to the native culture. You cannot slaughter dogs for their meat in the west just because it is part of Chinese and East Asian diet. The person would be arrested for animal cruelty. Most western people consider dog more than a pet. They are crazy about them.
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Are you trying to justify your laws to justify pakistans existence, or should you be worried about justifying your laws to justify India’s claim of a secular country?

If you guys want to be a Hindu state or a Santana state, nobody will complain about it. Codify these laws based on your religion, but then don’t thump your chest calling yourselves secular.
 
deltexas said:
Exactly. You yourself accept it. And thats why people have a problem .
When in minority , want full secularism. But when you become majority - want Islamic law and to heck with minorities rights.
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You can complain and whine but these are democratic principles. I am not saying I want “full secularism” anywhere. My argument is simply that “if” you claim to be secular then your laws should reflect it.

What “I” want and don’t want is inmmaterial here.

Tomorrow if majority Christians in the US want to impose total Christian laws here can I do anything about it or complain about it? Probably not because that’s what democracy is. We already have Christian laws in the nation here.
 
Stewie said:
You can complain and whine but these are democratic principles. I am not saying I want “full secularism” anywhere. My argument is simply that “if” you claim to be secular then your laws should reflect it.

What “I” want and don’t want is inmmaterial here.

Tomorrow if majority Christians in the US want to impose total Christian laws here can I do anything about it or complain about it? Probably not because that’s what democracy is. We already have Christian laws in the nation here.
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Btw I replied to your post #1446 but unfortunately it got deleted. No idea why.
 
Stewie said:
You can complain and whine but these are democratic principles. I am not saying I want “full secularism” anywhere. My argument is simply that “if” you claim to be secular then your laws should reflect it.

What “I” want and don’t want is inmmaterial here.

Tomorrow if majority Christians in the US want to impose total Christian laws here can I do anything about it or complain about it? Probably not because that’s what democracy is. We already have Christian laws in the nation here.
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And that is the difference I am stating. When Muslims are in minority, they scream secularism. When in majority - they want Islamic laws. And its only Islamic countries and on;y with Islam that you see. There are so many Christian nations and non Islamic nations that have secular laws. How many Islamic countries have secular laws that state Islam is not their state religion ?? So does that not indicate a pattern of why it only happens with Muslims or Islamic countries ? You can pretend to be naive but you the undercurrent principle here. Proper separation of Church and state is the way to go and that is how it is in secular countries which the Islamic countries are not..
 
Stewie said:
You can complain and whine but these are democratic principles. I am not saying I want “full secularism” anywhere. My argument is simply that “if” you claim to be secular then your laws should reflect it.

What “I” want and don’t want is inmmaterial here.

Tomorrow if majority Christians in the US want to impose total Christian laws here can I do anything about it or complain about it? Probably not because that’s what democracy is. We already have Christian laws in the nation here.
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Please name a few.
 
deltexas said:
And that is the difference I am stating. When Muslims are in minority, they scream secularism. When in majority - they want Islamic laws. And its only Islamic countries and on;y with Islam that you see. There are so many Christian nations and non Islamic nations that have secular laws. How many Islamic countries have secular laws that state Islam is not their state religion ?? So does that not indicate a pattern of why it only happens with Muslims or Islamic countries ? You can pretend to be naive but you the undercurrent principle here. Proper separation of Church and state is the way to go and that is how it is in secular countries which the Islamic countries are not..
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Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. I don’t think any religion in the world has such an intricate codified governance model as Islam perhaps that’s why we it in Muslim countries. If Christianity had something like it, perhaps they would apply it as well, but they didn’t.


But regardless of the “reasons” your inferences are absolutely incorrect purely because the alternatives to Islamic laws are either secularism or some form of authoritarianism. So which laws do you think Muslims would “scream” for, if they are not in majority? Will they seek someone like Putin to rule over them or Kim jong un?


Proper separation of church and state by the way doesn’t exist.. anywhere!

Even in the US they try to impose laws derived from Christianity to whatever extent they can.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Please name a few.
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Read the federalist papers and James Madison’s philosophy about small government. Why US postal service is perhaps one of few national departments servicing the citizens. Why are Sundays off, and not Mondays or Tuesdays or Wednesdays?
Why is liquor not sold close to certain Churches and schools on Sunday till noon?

Read about the Mayflower Compact.
Why is suicide illegal? Why is abortion illegal? Why was homosexuality illegal for so many years?
 
Stewie said:
Are you trying to justify your laws to justify pakistans existence, or should you be worried about justifying your laws to justify India’s claim of a secular country?

If you guys want to be a Hindu state or a Santana state, nobody will complain about it. Codify these laws based on your religion, but then don’t thump your chest calling yourselves secular.
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India is not secular because it does not let people like you eat beef.😂

America is also not secular because Dog meat is not allowed there.
 
Stewie said:
Read the federalist papers and James Madison’s philosophy about small government. Why US postal service is perhaps one of few national departments servicing the citizens. Why are Sundays off, and not Mondays or Tuesdays or Wednesdays?
Why is liquor not sold close to certain Churches and schools on Sunday till noon?

Read about the Mayflower Compact.
Why is suicide illegal? Why is abortion illegal? Why was homosexuality illegal for so many years?
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Abortion is illegal? isn't that left up to the states?

Suicide: Try Oregon

is this you making stuff up again? Is suicide frowned up only in christianity?

So you have nothing specific you can tie to christian religiosity in any meaningful way?
 
“Bulldozer revenge”: APCR releases reports on “state-sanctioned” violence against Muslims in Rajasthan, MP

Rights defenders, who joined the Association for Protection of Civil Rights (APCR) in releasing two reports on “bulldozer justice” in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, condemned the BJP government’s extrajudicial punishments against Muslims, including house demolitions and arbitrary arrests, as part of a dangerous state crackdown on the religious minority.

These reports focus on issues of violence and discriminatory treatment by the BJP governments of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. The reports are titled “State-Sanctioned Mobocracy: How State Machinery Fuels Communal Agendas and Extrajudicial Punishments” and “Bulldozing Dissent: Disproportionate State Crackdown on Muslim Protestors.”

The reports detail incidents in Udaipur, Rajasthan, and Chhatarpur, Madhya Pradesh, where government actions targeted Muslim communities, using extreme measures like bulldozing homes as a form of punishment. The press conference was attended by parliamentarians, human rights advocates, legal experts, former government officials, journalists, and citizens who are concerned about these developments. Professor Manoj K Jha, RJD MP, called for the public to reject “this normalisation of injustice.” He criticised the judiciary for being selective in its approach and urged a change in how these issues are viewed.

Jha said: “The neutrality of polarization and elections has caused a lot of harm and the judiciary has a selective approach. However, I don’t agree that there is a matter of whether the bench is a favourable one or not. The perspective must be changed. Nobody raised their voice when bulldozer reached Kashmir, which has become a tool for campaigning during elections.”

Wajahat Habibullah, a former Chief Information Commissioner, drew a comparison between the current situation in India and the early days of Nazi Germany, warning that the government is blurring the lines between nationalism and patriotism in a dangerous way.

He went on to say: “The inter-community conflicts have been happening for years. Now that there is a policy of proving that 20% of the Indian population does not belong to this country, the bulldozer injustice is being utilized. Their attempts to blur the difference between ‘nationalism’ and ‘patriotism’ are what we can recall went into the making of Nazi Germany. They want to establish Muslims anti-national for vote bank so that others can applaud this action.”

Social activist Harsh Mander discussed the history of using bulldozers as a tool of oppression. He warned that the current government’s actions are turning the state itself into a mob that targets specific communities.

“We will remember the second term of Narendra Modi with lynchings but this third term we don’t need a lynch mob. The government itself is in the form of a mob targeting a particular community. There is no district left in Madhya Pradesh where no such state-sponsored bulldozer action has been taken. I am yet to find a collector in Madhya Pradesh who can say that I will not abide by this unconstitutional process,” Mander said.
Bhasha Singh, an independent journalist, criticised the media for supporting “bulldozer justice” and not holding the government accountable. She pointed out that the courts have also been silent on this issue, which is deeply concerning.

Singh said: “The government is also running a bulldozer on history. There are no reports of the attacks in India. Bulldozer injustice is an image of the fascist regime. The Courts are at their place but they remain silent on bulldozer justice…the word “injustice” must be pasted in outrage everywhere we see bulldozer action.”

maktoobmedia.com

“Bulldozer revenge”: APCR releases reports on “state-sanctioned” violence against Muslims in Rajasthan, MP

Rights defenders, who joined the Association for Protection of Civil Rights (APCR) in releasing two reports on "bulldozer justice" in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, condemned the BJP government's extrajudicial punishments against Muslims, including house demolitions and arbitrary arrests, as part...
maktoobmedia.com maktoobmedia.com
 
rpant_gabba said:
Abortion is illegal? isn't that left up to the states?

Suicide: Try Oregon

is this you making stuff up again? Is suicide frowned up only in christianity?

So you have nothing specific you can tie to christian religiosity in any meaningful way?
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So one state makes it legal and you say it’s legal everywhere?

What is the basis of the efforts to make abortion illegal when they say leave it up to states how many have made it almost impossible to get it?
Why is abortion even debatable?

Have you looked at my other recommended references?
 
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Stewie said:
So one state makes it legal and you say it’s legal everywhere?
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So its less about religion at a national level and more about what is agreeable to the state? is there federal ban on abortion ?
Stewie said:
What is the basis of the efforts to make abortion illegal when they say leave it up to states how many have made it almost impossible to get it?
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Why do you claim that abortion is a xtian issue? the bible doesn't recognize baby as human until 1 month after birth.
Stewie said:
Why is abortion even debatable?
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I'd argue that debate around abortion is a step away from the death cult that is xtianity and unconscius embrace of secular humanism.

and you are throwing sunday being a holiday as a xtian law? seriously? at this point it is nothing more than a labor negotiation and what days you work.

Stewie said:
Have you looked at my other recommended references?
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postal service is xitanity law being applied? if those you arguments, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
 
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Stewie said:
hahaha, so now you think I should change my dietary habits because cow is sacred for some?

You cannot equate insulting someone with eating something that is considered normal in the other 99% of the countries world wide.
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Nobody asked you to change anything. You don't live in India.
 
Champ_Pal said:
Last month I went to Niagara. I saw a large group of Bangladeshis(they were speaking bangla) offer prayers in the park adjacent to it. Kids who were playing there were staring at the people offering prayers.

There are enough videos on YouTube to see even in the west, Muslims offer prayers on streets blocking traffic. What I am saying is not just anecdotal.
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People here praised Rizwan for praying on the sidewalk in USA.
 
Stewie said:
Are you trying to justify your laws to justify pakistans existence, or should you be worried about justifying your laws to justify India’s claim of a secular country?

If you guys want to be a Hindu state or a Santana state, nobody will complain about it. Codify these laws based on your religion, but then don’t thump your chest calling yourselves secular.
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This is true. There is a reason why Muslims rejected secularism like a plague from their own countries. They should impose all rules based on hinduism and subdue muslim minorities like muslim nations have done to their own minorities
 
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RexRex said:
Hindutva is a corrupt vigilante version of hinduism and given the backing of a political party currently in power. That is dangerous. What is its equivalent today amongst other religions in other countries ? Maybe you might know.

I don't hate hinduism btw, I think it's a pretty cool religion.
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Christianity is the corrupt version of which idelogy? Old testament is full of violence and bigotry. What led to that corruption?

You should hate Hinduism and Christianity and Islam alike. If you hate violence.
 
Stewie said:
Well my apologies if I am coming across that way but perhaps my somewhat standoffish tone is coming from the fact the same participants in this debate have asked me for proof of certain faith based claims I have made. I am really not too hung up over them proving it to me.

Also, my eating beef is not somehow disrespecting their faith and their belief in the sacred cow. I am not asking them to start eating beef. I am simply asking for the freedom of doing so myself. Muslims in India are denied of this freedom and yet they claim India to be a secular state. They poke holes in the Muslim way of life day in and day out as can be seen even in this thread but then they start citing respecting other people's faith when it comes to cow slaughter ban. I feel this is hypocrisy.

If they want to feel its blasphemous and horrible, I think nobody is stopping them from it. But they should also not stop me from doing what I want.

Hope that's clear.
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Who is asking you to stop consuming beef?

Muslims can have their religious sentiments protected when they are a majority, fine. But Hindus cannot have their religious sentiments protected when majority? Muslims tastebuds have superior rights to hindus religious sentiments even in a hindu majority country?
 
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CricketCartoons said:
This is true. There is a reason why Muslims rejected secularism like a plague from their own countries. They should impose all rules based on hinduism and subdue muslim minorities like muslim nations have done to their own minorities
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Next time you are on the conference call with brother modi, please convey this message to him.
 
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Stewie said:
It’s not like you guys already don’t do that.
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Islamophobia is irrational fear of islam.

Our fear is rational. History and present all show that muslims will not allow our basic rights even when we are in majority, forget what happens to hindus in Pakistan and BD.

Muslims have many qualities, but they lack one quality, which is introspection. To look into their gireybaan. But if they had this one quality, they would know why some people have rational fear of them.
 
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CricketCartoons said:
Another lie. Claiming all 4 religions are Dharmic and Indic, which means all have the same roots. Not that Hinduism is the root of all the other three.
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I have explained this to Pak posters many times. All of them are sister religions. In fact they were never religions. They are called Marg or Path.
People are free to choose which ever path one feels comfortable with. Most kings and emperors patronized all these paths.
 
We just have to face the realities - Indian Hindus will never recover from British and Islamic rule. Hindutvas can cry, weep, bellow, revise history all they want - it will not change history or their insecure mindset.

And this is the main reason why India will NEVER progress, because to progress you have to move on from the past.

Cold. Hard. Fact.
 
Technics 1210 said:
We just have to face the realities - Indian Hindus will never recover from British and Islamic rule. Hindutvas can cry, weep, bellow, revise history all they want - it will not change history or their insecure mindset.

And this is the main reason why India will NEVER progress, because to progress you have to move on from the past.

Cold. Hard. Fact.
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You could be right about the mindset. India had 1000 years of shame from Arabs to Turks to British. That is exactly what propels India too to make progress. India has made significant strides in the past 2 decades. The next 2 decades also belongs to India. It is well on the path to become an economic power. We all know Money rules and Talks.

Pakistan is also suffering from all these foreign invasions. That land faced the brunt of all brutal attacks from central asia. Till today, it has not recovered from all of those conquests.
 
Champ_Pal said:
You could be right about the mindset. India had 1000 years of shame from Arabs to Turks to British. That is exactly what propels India too to make progress. India has made significant strides in the past 2 decades. The next 2 decades also belongs to India. It is well on the path to become an economic power. We all know Money rules and Talks.

Pakistan is also suffering from all these foreign invasions. That land faced the brunt of all brutal attacks from central asia. Till today, it has not recovered from all of those conquests.
Click to expand...
Although Pakistan region was the first to face the brunt of invasions, they don't hold any mental or civilizational scars. Because by converting to Islam the vanquished became the victor and altered their timeline and history.

Reminds me of this: During British rule, the missionaries were active in Punjab, and many underprivileged people from choora tribe had converted to Christianity. Two of them had renamed themselves Peter and Paul. So they saw some Indians leading a procession and chanting anti British slogans. Peter asked:

Oye Paul, ehna zyada shor kyon ho reha hai?
Paul said: Oye Peter! Oh azaadi maang rahe ne, par asi ohna nu de nahi rahe.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Islamophobia is irrational fear of islam.

Our fear is rational. History and present all show that muslims will not allow our basic rights even when we are in majority, forget what happens to hindus in Pakistan and BD.

Muslims have many qualities, but they lack one quality, which is introspection. To look into their gireybaan. But if they had this one quality, they would know why some people have rational fear of them.
Click to expand...
And Hindus seem to have that introspection In spades as they have over the centuries created oppressive systems like sati, caste, dealing with lower castes and Dalits, and razing down places of worship of Muslims in retaliation and revenge? 😂

It’s all great once you start picking out flaws of others and complain about lack of introspection but only one who has no skeletons In their own closet can smugly utter such things. All others including Hindus should simply accept that they are no better.
 
The Hindustva brigade is just a violent reaction to the fact that Hindus are quickly on a downward spiral in losing co from over the country. Muslims are outbreeding them and modern Hindus are pretty much atheists with zero belief in their own traditions and they are turning more and more westernized whereas Muslims have managed to stick to their belief system and ideology over the years. The right wing think tank knows they are in trouble and have managed to ally with all the others in the country Including Sikhs, lower caste, etc in what they think is their last stand for their land. Their hegemony is obviously challenged in perhaps in another 40-50 years when Muslims might be in majority. They are doing what they can to stop that from happening.

That’s the truth behind Islamophobia and Hindutva in India.
 
Stewie said:
And Hindus seem to have that introspection In spades as they have over the centuries created oppressive systems like sati, caste, dealing with lower castes and Dalits, and razing down places of worship of Muslims in retaliation and revenge? 😂

It’s all great once you start picking out flaws of others and complain about lack of introspection but only one who has no skeletons In their own closet can smugly utter such things. All others including Hindus should simply accept that they are no better.
Click to expand...
Yep. Including atheists who've been responsible for some of the worst human behaviors.

With the one qualification that atheism itself has no philosophy...only the ll ack of one. So any crimes or offenses cannot be laid at it's door. Only at the doors of the humans committing them.
 
Stewie said:
It’s not like you guys already don’t do that.
Click to expand...


You want to enlighten us as to why any non-muslim should not have any phobia for your religion ? Make sure you back that up with empirical data.

To give you an example of track record : ... there is not a single instance of a Hindu-Parsi riot in more than 1000 years and despite their numbers being literally negligible compared to Hindus the Parsis are the most prosperous community in India.

So what is the track record of Muslims ?
 
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uppercut said:
You want to enlighten us as to why any non-muslim should not have any phobia for your religion ? Make sure you back that up with empirical data.

To give you an example of track record : ... there is not a single instance of a Hindu-Parsi riot in more than 1000 years and despite their numbers being literally negligible compared to Hindus the Parsis are the most prosperous community in India.

So what is the track record of Muslims ?
Click to expand...
What is the track record of upper caste Hindus when it comes to lower caste Hindus and Dalits and achyuts, etc? Also what is their track record since the 90s when it comes to Muslims?

I know you guys like to publicize your diversity a lot but this type of diversity has become a menace. I am not defending Muslims. Unfortunately I am laying the blame on all the subcontinental ethnicities here. We procreate at a much faster rate and we kill each other at a similar rate.

There have been problems in Pakistan, India, SRL and BD. Somehow you can’t claim Hindus are immune to it. You guys have tried to wipe off Sikhs at one time as well, let’s not forget that.

But I believe whether right or wrong Islamophobia and anti Muslim bias exists very strongly in India. Unfortunately this situation is a powder keg now in the region and will be with rising hindutva and dwindling or lower than Muslim birth rate for Hindus. As the population continues to increase the resources will be stretched thin and the nation will continue to polarize more and more.

Pakistan is in a similar situation in the fight for resources except we are fighting a war against elites and elitists.
 
uppercut said:
You want to enlighten us as to why any non-muslim should not have any phobia for your religion ? Make sure you back that up with empirical data.

To give you an example of track record : ... there is not a single instance of a Hindu-Parsi riot in more than 1000 years and despite their numbers being literally negligible compared to Hindus the Parsis are the most prosperous community in India.

So what is the track record of Muslims ?
Click to expand...
How about Hindu Christian riots or Hindu Sikh riots?

What's the track records of Hindus here?
 
Stewie said:
What is the track record of upper caste Hindus when it comes to lower caste Hindus and Dalits and achyuts, etc? Also what is their track record since the 90s when it comes to Muslims?

I know you guys like to publicize your diversity a lot but this type of diversity has become a menace. I am not defending Muslims. Unfortunately I am laying the blame on all the subcontinental ethnicities here. We procreate at a much faster rate and we kill each other at a similar rate.

There have been problems in Pakistan, India, SRL and BD. Somehow you can’t claim Hindus are immune to it. You guys have tried to wipe off Sikhs at one time as well, let’s not forget that.

But I believe whether right or wrong Islamophobia and anti Muslim bias exists very strongly in India. Unfortunately this situation is a powder keg now in the region and will be with rising hindutva and dwindling or lower than Muslim birth rate for Hindus. As the population continues to increase the resources will be stretched thin and the nation will continue to polarize more and more.

Pakistan is in a similar situation in the fight for resources except we are fighting a war against elites and elitists.
Click to expand...
I think this birthrate nonsense is way overblown. Just something for Modi and his followers to use as scaremongering vote gatherers than actuality.

From what I find on the net, average Muslim birthrate in 2021 was 2.36 for Muslims and 1.96 for Hindus. Given the relative sizes of the populations, it'll take forever for this tiny difference to actually change any of the demographics significantly.

I would argue besides that this is more of a reflection of the fact that Muslims are more in the relatively undeveloped, high fertility north of India and less in the relatively developed, low fertility south of India and this fertility difference is more a reflection of the regional economic disparity than any religious or community variation.
 
Stewie said:
And Hindus seem to have that introspection In spades as they have over the centuries created oppressive systems like sati, caste, dealing with lower castes and Dalits, and razing down places of worship of Muslims in retaliation and revenge? 😂

It’s all great once you start picking out flaws of others and complain about lack of introspection but only one who has no skeletons In their own closet can smugly utter such things. All others including Hindus should simply accept that they are no better.
Click to expand...
LOL and LOL.

Hindu society has accepted its flaws, and accepted reforms. Many hindus even share guilt despite they being not responsible for any thing in the past. Hindus, and practicing hindus, criticize their deities too.

Muslims, on the other hand, claim their religion is flawless. They will defend every bigoted verse of their scripture by various mental gymnastics.

Ever heard of muslim guilt? No, because because feel proud of whatever their ancestors/victors have done.

Muslims oppose any reform with a vengeance.
 
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CricketCartoons said:
LOL and LOL.

Hindu society has accepted its flaws, and accepted reforms. Many hindus even share guilt despite they being not responsible for any thing in the past. Hindus, and practicing hindus, criticize their deities too.

Muslims, on the other hand, claim their religion is flawless. They will defend every bigoted verse of their scripture by various mental gymnastics.

Ever heard of muslim guilt? No, because because feel proud of whatever their ancestors/victors have done.

Muslims oppose any reform with a vengeance.
Click to expand...
Still remember when years ago posters were discussing Islam's punishment on people practising homosexuality. It's hilarious that some British Pakistanis were actually defending the death penalty for such people.
 
CricketCartoons said:
LOL and LOL.

Hindu society has accepted its flaws, and accepted reforms. Many hindus even share guilt despite they being not responsible for any thing in the past. Hindus, and practicing hindus, criticize their deities too.

Muslims, on the other hand, claim their religion is flawless. They will defend every bigoted verse of their scripture by various mental gymnastics.

Ever heard of muslim guilt? No, because because feel proud of whatever their ancestors/victors have done.

Muslims oppose any reform with a vengeance.
Click to expand...
Please share where I can find this acceptance of the flaws. It would be interesting reading.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Please share where I can find this acceptance of the flaws. It would be interesting reading.
Click to expand...
It is out there in real. Many hindus have been at the forefront of social reform for dalits. Hindu leaders led reforms for bad social practices. Widow remarriage, women rights, dalit rights, other backward caste rights all led by prominent hindus.
 
CricketCartoons said:
It is out there in real. Many hindus have been at the forefront of social reform for dalits. Hindu leaders led reforms for bad social practices. Widow remarriage, women rights, dalit rights, other backward caste rights all led by prominent hindus.
Click to expand...
Same things exist in all communities. I thought you were presenting something unique.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Same things exist in all communities. I thought you were presenting something unique.
Click to expand...
It is not unique. It exists in other communities. Christian society, in the west at least, has rejected many verses in the Bible which have no place today.

Does it exist in muslim society? Which verses in the scriptures have been declared that they are wrong? Just a few days ago KKWC was justifying the 2:1 witness rule for female and males by saying females lack the physical attributes.
 
CricketCartoons said:
It is not unique. It exists in other communities. Christian society, in the west at least, has rejected many verses in the Bible which have no place today.

Does it exist in muslim society? Which verses in the scriptures have been declared that they are wrong? Just a few days ago KKWC was justifying the 2:1 witness rule for female and males by saying females lack the physical attributes.
Click to expand...
Have the Hindus declared that their past practices or verses or books were wrong?

Or have they reinterpreted them or quietly put aside.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Have the Hindus declared that their past practices or verses or books were wrong?

Or have they reinterpreted them or quietly put aside.
Click to expand...
Which scriptures ordain these practices??

Practices changes from time and place. Some just fade out of existence. Some have to be eliminated by concious effort.
 
IndoorCricket said:
I am not well versed in this but isn't wahabism what lead to Islamic extremism?
Click to expand...
I mean within Islam, it is considered a reform, to make Islam pure and remove any innovations that had crept in. Not in the sense of rejecting or re interpreting something which went against the morality of present times.
 
Technics 1210 said:
Neo-Hinduism has been proven wrong on many levels already.
Click to expand...
Hinduism has had flaws, that is why it did not have a One Book, because many things change according to times.

Even Christianity has had its flaws which they have rejected.

Only Islam is perfect. So no need to reject anything.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Sati is accepted as evil. Many hindus accept caste system as discriminatory.
Click to expand...
This is a change in social practice rather than a change in theology. Was caste considered evil at the time? Our ancestors who burned the women were they committing evil then or is it only evil now?

It's like in classical Islamic law women were unable to travel over 45 miles without a male guardian. That ruling is mostly ignored now. These are the types of things you are bringing forward.
 
IndoorCricket said:
Which scriptures ordain these practices??

Practices changes from time and place. Some just fade out of existence. Some have to be eliminated by concious effort.
Click to expand...
I don't know about your scriptures enough to say which says it. But it seems you appear to think that the Hindu masses openly practiced and encouraged evil practices. Only through the efforts of modern Hindus like you has the religion been reformed.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
This is a change in social practice rather than a change in theology. Was caste considered evil at the time? Our ancestors who burned the women were they committing evil then or is it only evil now?

It's like in classical Islamic law women were unable to travel over 45 miles without a male guardian. That ruling is mostly ignored now. These are the types of things you are bringing forward.
Click to expand...
Evil is evil. It was evil then.

I will give a simple example to bring forward what I am hitting at.

Hindus, and I mean practicing hindus, have criticised even Lord Ram and Lord Krishna. Can muslims ever criticize Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)?

You know the answer. And I rest my case.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Evil is evil. It was evil then.

I will give a simple example to bring forward what I am hitting at.

Hindus, and I mean practicing hindus, have criticised even Lord Ram and Lord Krishna. Can muslims ever criticize Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)?

You know the answer. And I rest my case.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting perspective. Why would you criticize the gods? Who are these Hindus that do it and what form does the criticism take?

No we will never ever criticise Prophet Muhammad (saw).

You haven't really presented a case to rest apart from your modernist interpretation being superior to earlier interpretation. No evidence of any theological change just through change in social practices.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Hinduism has had flaws, that is why it did not have a One Book, because many things change according to times.

Even Christianity has had its flaws which they have rejected.

Only Islam is perfect. So no need to reject anything.
Click to expand...
Hinduism is not even a religion, it is a perception of how a society is perceived within India which why Hinduism was confined within India.

Sati is a good example, before you go criticising the treatment of women in other religion, spare a though for Hinduism which encourages the burning of a widow alive. Caste system is another belter.

Now you can go on and claim - this is not Hinduism - but feel free to do so because it proves that most Hindus are ashamed of Hinduism, which is why they are desperate to alter it.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
That's an interesting perspective. Why would you criticize the gods? Who are these Hindus that do it and what form does the criticism take?

No we will never ever criticise Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Click to expand...
That is a tangential discussion. The original discussion was that which of Hinduism and Islamic community is open to reform, acceptance of its flaws.

The form of criticism is not that of hatred. It is disagreement with some of their actions.
 
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