Why anti Muslim bias is so profound among Hindutva supporters?

[DeadlyVenom]

That is a tangential discussion. The original discussion was that which of Hinduism and Islamic community is open to reform, acceptance of its flaws.

The form of criticism is not that of hatred. It is disagreement with some of their actions.

You haven't shown where there is acceptance of flaws. You have just shown how people no longer practice certain things.

As I have said similar things happen in Islam.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You haven't shown where there is acceptance of flaws. You have just shown how people no longer practice certain things.

As I have said similar things happen in Islam.

No. I am shown more than that.

1. No longer practice certain things.
2. Rejection of some verses (like Ramcharitmanas dhol, shudra, pashu nari)
3. Criticism of their deities.
4. Reforming movement, affirmative action led by Hindus.

What have you shown?

 

[IndoorCricket]

Hinduism is not even a religion, it is a perception of how a society is perceived within India which why Hinduism was confined within India.

Sati is a good example, before you go criticising the treatment of women in other religion, spare a though for Hinduism which encourages the burning of a widow alive. Caste system is another belter.

Now you can go on and claim - this is not Hinduism - but feel free to do so because it proves that most Hindus are ashamed of Hinduism, which is why they are desperate to alter it.

Half baked knowledge is dangerous. Sati was a local practise. It is not ordained by God or religious scriptures. It is not theologically sanctioned. It's mostly was in Rajput kingdoms and later spread to other parts.

There is no concept of caste but there is Varna system. Societal practices are very much different from God ordained laws. Islam and quran are direct words of God who says females are lesser than males. Their testimonials are half that of a man. And Islamists have no shame in accepting and supporting it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Hinduism is not even a religion, it is a perception of how a society is perceived within India which why Hinduism was confined within India.

Sati is a good example, before you go criticising the treatment of women in other religion, spare a though for Hinduism which encourages the burning of a widow alive. Caste system is another belter.

Now you can go on and claim - this is not Hinduism - but feel free to do so because it proves that most Hindus are ashamed of Hinduism, which is why they are desperate to alter it.

SO you agree that I can criticise any other religion after sparing a thought for hinduism? Yes, that is what I am doing. I have spared a lot of thought so I am free to criticize muslims. Keep an open mind.

 

[Technics 1210]

Half baked knowledge is dangerous. Sati was a local practise. It is not ordained by God or religious scriptures. It is not theologically sanctioned. It's mostly was in Rajput kingdoms and later spread to other parts.

There is no concept of caste but there is Varna system. Societal practices are very much different from God ordained laws. Islam and quran are direct words of God who says females are lesser than males. Their testimonials are half that of a man. And Islamists have no shame in accepting and supporting it.

There it is.

Sati WAS a local practise? No concept of caste? Who are you trying to kid here?

Islamists do not represent Islam. Do you accept this fact? I doubt it.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

No. I am shown more than that.

1. No longer practice certain things.
2. Rejection of some verses (like Ramcharitmanas dhol, shudra, pashu nari)
3. Criticism of their deities.
4. Reforming movement, affirmative action led by Hindus.

What have you shown?

You haven't shown any of these things. You have told us it happens and accept us to believe it's common among Hindus.

1 and 4 happens in Muslim community.

2 happens to an extent where some Hadith that were considered sound are reinterpreted or downgraded.

But let's focus on your 2 and 3. Give examples that aren't just conversations between people at truck stops. How have the Hindus done this and what would show a non Hindu that it happens.

 

[Technics 1210]

SO you agree that I can criticise any other religion after sparing a thought for hinduism? Yes, that is what I am doing. I have spared a lot of thought so I am free to criticize muslims. Keep an open mind.

You are changing the direction of the chat again CC! You can do as you please, who said otherwise?

Why do you suddenly show shades of insecurity when Hinduism is discussed?

 

[IndoorCricket]

There it is.

Sati WAS a local practise? No concept of caste? Who are you trying to kid here?

Islamists do not represent Islam. Do you accept this fact? I doubt it.

Please provide quotes or texts from Hindu scriptures where God sanctioned these practices.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Half baked knowledge is dangerous. Sati was a local practise. It is not ordained by God or religious scriptures. It is not theologically sanctioned. It's mostly was in Rajput kingdoms and later spread to other parts.

There is no concept of caste but there is Varna system. Societal practices are very much different from God ordained laws. Islam and quran are direct words of God who says females are lesser than males. Their testimonials are half that of a man. And Islamists have no shame in accepting and supporting it.

Oh ok the things that have been "reformed" weren't even part of Hinduism in the first place then.

Got it.

Don't try and hoodwink us by claiming credit for reform then.

But anyway we will respect what you have said.

Going back to topic - given caste and sati weren't part of Hinduism in the first place can you give us examples of reform please?

 

[Technics 1210]

Please provide quotes or texts from Hindu scriptures where God sanctioned these practices.

Which God? Hinduism has 1000000s, no? Hang on, many Indians on her claimed Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life? Which is it?

At the end of the day, Hinduism had a 5000 year head start yet failed to make its mark around the world. The reasons why are obvious, and its not because Hinduism accepts life, it is because Hinduism discriminates life.

We are all born equal, except if one is born in Hinduism, in which case, one is funneled into a caste for life.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Tell me an instance where Islamic community reformed itself going against the prevailing Islamic teachings.

Please answer this from a Hindu perspective, especially now we have been educated that Sati and Caste wasn't part of Hinduism anyway.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Oh ok the things that have been "reformed" weren't even part of Hinduism in the first place then.

Got it.

Don't try and hoodwink us by claiming credit for reform then.

But anyway we will respect what you have said.

Going back to topic - given caste and sati weren't part of Hinduism in the first place can you give us examples of reform please?

You have to seperate Hindu religion and Hindu culture. Because the culture and tradition in India changes from state to state.

There is a case of dowry too in Hindu tradition which still going on.

Which God? Hinduism has 1000000s, no? Hang on, many Indians on her claimed Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life? Which is it?

At the end of the day, Hinduism had a 5000 year head start yet failed to make its mark around the world. The reasons why are obvious, and its not because Hinduism accepts life, it is because Hinduism discriminates life.

We are all born equal, except if one is born in Hinduism, in which case, one is funneled into a caste for life.

Your post just exposes your ignorance and hate. Hinduism is primarily based on Vedic texts.

Again asking the same question show any text from the millions of gods we have who ordained such practices.

Don't go on a hate spewing and ignorance filled tangent. Show me hard evidence and temper tantrums.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Please answer this from a Hindu perspective, especially now we have been educated that Sati and Caste wasn't part of Hinduism anyway.

Sorry. What was the question again? Are you quoting the right post?

 

[CricketCartoons]

You haven't shown any of these things. You have told us it happens and accept us to believe it's common among Hindus.

1 and 4 happens in Muslim community.

2 happens to an extent where some Hadith that were considered sound are reinterpreted or downgraded.

But let's focus on your 2 and 3. Give examples that aren't just conversations between people at truck stops. How have the Hindus done this and what would show a non Hindu that it happens.

I would like to focus on all, but sure let me focus on 2 and 3.

2.
Many hindus reject the manusmriti (the law book for hindus). That is not like some chain of hadith where they are weak and strong hadiths. It is the literal law book. That will be like Muslims rejecting some part of Quraan and some hadiths of Sahih Bukhari.

Many hindus reject one verse of Tulsidas Ramcharitmanas (the popular form of Ramayana) where it seems objectional to women. But the main example remains Manusmriti.

3. Many literary works critiquing Lord Rama (from Sita's point of view). Most famous of them was Mohandas Gandhi.
While there can never be an Islamic equivalent of 3. What are the ones for 1, 2 and 4?

 

[Technics 1210]

Your post just exposes your ignorance and hate. Hinduism is primarily based on Vedic texts.

Again asking the same question show any text from the millions of gods we have who ordained such practices.

Don't go on a hate spewing and ignorance filled tangent. Show me hard evidence and temper tantrums.

Euphemism for you have no justification or explanation for some of the horrendous and immoral practises of Hinduism.

As I said, many Hindus are ashamed of Hinduism which is why the seek to alter it.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Euphemism for you have no justification or explanation for some of the horrendous and immoral practises of Hinduism.

As I said, many Hindus are ashamed of Hinduism which is why the seek to alter it.

Again.. you are running away whe asked for hard evidence. Sati which was a social practise is already abolished. It was a horrendous practise and rightly so discarded.

Please bring data or hard evidence if not what you are saying carries no substance at all.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Please stay on topic

 

[Technics 1210]

Again.. you are running away whe asked for hard evidence. Sati which was a social practise is already abolished. It was a horrendous practise and rightly so discarded.

Please bring data or hard evidence if not what you are saying carries no substance at all.

Ahhh yes, this old chestnut - it was a bad practise/abolished blah blah. Does not change the fact Hinduism ushered in this vile practise.

When Muslims try to explain the differences between cultural and religious overspill when it comes to Islam, you don't care. You still believe Islam endorses the live burial of daughters despite the documented evidence of said vile practise predating Islam in the region.

You yourself reject the distinction between cultural and religion when it comes to Islam, yet want us to accept the distinctions within Hinduism so that you can purify Hinduism of its vile practises.

I don't need evidence, the fact your are hopelessly excusing Sati as some phantom Hindu practise tells me I am spot on.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Whether something is sanctioned in the scriptures or not, if it becomes a social practice and is evil, then the society must own it.

 

[uppercut]

Islamists do not represent Islam. Do you accept this fact? I doubt it.

Yeah and Iam Gandhi + Dalai Lama rolled into one if YOU of all people are talking about facts.

Here is just one of your posts where you take pride in looting

India's delusions of dominance in South Asia are exposed

As a Pakistani, I've always been skeptical of India's claims of being a regional power. Recent events have vindicated my stance, exposing India's ambitions as nothing more than a pipe dream. The fall of the Ashraf Ghani government in Afghanistan in 2021, which India had propped up, marks a...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

India throughout history has been a stepping stone to riches, but for others. Portuguese, Muslims, and the British to name but a few. Absolutely rinsed the riches out of India and with it scarred a nation probably for another 5000 years

 

[IndoorCricket]

Ahhh yes, this old chestnut - it was a bad practise/abolished blah blah. Does not change the fact Hinduism ushered in this vile practise.

When Muslims try to explain the differences between cultural and religious overspill when it comes to Islam, you don't care. You still believe Islam endorses the live burial of daughters despite the documented evidence of said vile practise predating Islam in the region.

You yourself reject the distinction between cultural and religion when it comes to Islam, yet want us to accept the distinctions within Hinduism so that you can purify Hinduism of its vile practises.

I don't need evidence, the fact your are hopelessly excusing Sati as some phantom Hindu practise tells me I am spot on.

Blah blah blah…. Again no evidence to back up your claims. Everyone here is capable enuf to understand difference between religion and culture. You seem to be hard stuck on it. You are just projecting and trying to save your face. find some evidence to backup your claim.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Yeah and Iam Gandhi + Dalai Lama rolled into one if YOU of all people are talking about facts.

Here is just one of your posts where you take pride in looting

India's delusions of dominance in South Asia are exposed

As a Pakistani, I've always been skeptical of India's claims of being a regional power. Recent events have vindicated my stance, exposing India's ambitions as nothing more than a pipe dream. The fall of the Ashraf Ghani government in Afghanistan in 2021, which India had propped up, marks a...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

Islamists have deep hatred for anything other than Islam. They try to cover up their hatred but it keeps spilling.

 

[Technics 1210]

Blah blah blah….

You said it.

You can say it a million times but it doesn't change the realities of Hinduism.

Have a great Sunday!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I would like to focus on all, but sure let me focus on 2 and 3.

2.
Many hindus reject the manusmriti (the law book for hindus). That is not like some chain of hadith where they are weak and strong hadiths. It is the literal law book. That will be like Muslims rejecting some part of Quraan and some hadiths of Sahih Bukhari.

Many hindus reject one verse of Tulsidas Ramcharitmanas (the popular form of Ramayana) where it seems objectional to women. But the main example remains Manusmriti.

3. Many literary works critiquing Lord Rama (from Sita's point of view). Most famous of them was Mohandas Gandhi.
While there can never be an Islamic equivalent of 3. What are the ones for 1, 2 and 4?

1. No longer practice certain things. - Slavery is essentially abolished as per cairo convention on Islamic human rights, women travelling without mahram rarely practised, laws around iddat are relaxed in practice, in time more relaxed atittude towards apostacy.
2. Rejection of some verses (like Ramcharitmanas dhol, shudra, pashu nari) - no we won't verses however they are reviewed and hadith are recategorized. Albani for example in the 1940s removed many Hadith from Bukhari as he felt them weak. AFAIK Manu smirti isn't a divine text. it is a law book, rejecting this is the same as some aspects of shariah evolving over time.
3. Criticism of their deities - As we discussed this doesn't happen and will never happen nor is it something that Muslims aspire to.
4. Reforming movement, affirmative action led by Hindus. - What sort of reforming movement do you think Islam needs? There are reform movements on a smaller scale throughout the Muslim world. Since we don't have anything evil like Sati or Caste system there is no need for internal affirmative action. However there is womens rights movements prominent across all spheres of the Muslim world.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Sorry. What was the question again? Are you quoting the right post?

No it was for you. You asked me to provide an example of Islamic reform of a prevalent islamic practice.

But can you first detail from a Hindu perspective so I have a frame of reference now that I have learned Sati and Caste weren't Hindu practices anyway so don't count as examples of reform.

 

[CricketCartoons]

1. No longer practice certain things. - Slavery is essentially abolished as per cairo convention on Islamic human rights, women travelling without mahram rarely practised, laws around iddat are relaxed in practice, in time more relaxed atittude towards apostacy.
2. Rejection of some verses (like Ramcharitmanas dhol, shudra, pashu nari) - no we won't verses however they are reviewed and hadith are recategorized. Albani for example in the 1940s removed many Hadith from Bukhari as he felt them weak. AFAIK Manu smirti isn't a divine text. it is a law book, rejecting this is the same as some aspects of shariah evolving over time.
3. Criticism of their deities - As we discussed this doesn't happen and will never happen nor is it something that Muslims aspire to.
4. Reforming movement, affirmative action led by Hindus. - What sort of reforming movement do you think Islam needs? There are reform movements on a smaller scale throughout the Muslim world. Since we don't have anything evil like Sati or Caste system there is no need for internal affirmative action. However there is womens rights movements prominent across all spheres of the Muslim world.

For 2. What is the muslim consensus on the verse (except what your right hand possesses). Do they reject it?
Manusmriti is believed to be written by Manu getting it from Brahma, the creator of universe. So it is as divine as the Quran ( in terms of belief).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

For 2. What is the muslim consensus on the verse (except what your right hand possesses). Do they reject it?
Manusmriti is believed to be written by Manu getting it from Brahma, the creator of universe. So it is as divine as the Quran ( in terms of belief).

They don't reject it.

But it doesn't apply as slavery is abolished.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistani economy is in the dumps.

Their country is more like a land owned by the army and pakistanis just living in it.

Their treatment of non Muslims is pathetic.

The security situation is getting worse.

And pakistanis are discussing pages on India and Hindus.

This is some coping strategy.

And our people are having fun taking them on a trip. Good going guys

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Pakistani economy is in the dumps.

Their country is more like a land owned by the army and pakistanis just living in it.

Their treatment of non Muslims is pathetic.

The security situation is getting worse.

And pakistanis are discussing pages on India and Hindus.

This is some coping strategy.

And our people are having fun taking them on a trip. Good going guys

It's been a good learning discussion. Not sure why you are always so touchy.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's been a good learning discussion. Not sure why you are always so touchy.

Why should i be touchy, i am enjoying how my countrymen have been helping you guys cope.

 

[RexRex]

Why should i be touchy, i am enjoying how my countrymen have been helping you guys cope.

We're all just a bunch of individuals expressing our opinions; stop seeing everything through the tribal prism of Ind vs Pak. That is a sad insular way to live life.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Why should i be touchy, i am enjoying how my countrymen have been helping you guys cope.

Weird way to view things but ok.

 

[uppercut]

Islamists have deep hatred for anything other than Islam. They try to cover up their hatred but it keeps spilling.

naah ... IMO many of them innocently pour out their general intolerance as they are soo convinced in the koolaid which they have been fed that they actually think they have the moral highground on it. They truly think that one day we will come around and see the "light" !!!

For instance this dude firmly believes that his religion and its followers bought all things good to the otherwise uncivilized Hindus .... I kid you not.

 

[RexRex]

Christianity is the corrupt version of which idelogy? Old testament is full of violence and bigotry. What led to that corruption?

You should hate Hinduism and Christianity and Islam alike. If you hate violence.

I made a clear distinction between hinduism and hindutva but you keep insisting both are the same, it's not. The latter is a political movement.

Also, christian doctrine is different from a bunch of Old Testament verses. Nobody looks at random OT verses today and say 'oh that is how we should behave. The actual doctrine is a combination of 2000 year old church teachings and holy scriptures (bible)

 

[CricketCartoons]

I made a clear distinction between hinduism and hindutva but you keep insisting both are the same, it's not. The latter is a political movement.

Also, christian doctrine is different from a bunch of Old Testament verses. Nobody looks at random OT verses today and say 'oh that is how we should behave. The actual doctrine is a combination of 2000 year old church teachings and holy scriptures (bible)

Doesn't matter if something is an ideology, or religion or political movement. At the fundamental level they are a belief system, and every belief system should be held to the same level of accountability if its believers commit violence motivated by it.

If OT is not important, why isn't it removed from the Bible? (rhetorical question). Did you blame christianity for Anders Breivik? Name a single hindutva follower who has done anything similar to Breivik.

You are lenient on religions. I am not lenient on even hinduism. I am a hindu who believes in Hindutva. If you want to generalize my belief system, then I want the same to be applied to every belief system and every religion, including your religion.

 

[Stewie]

Doesn't matter if something is an ideology, or religion or political movement. At the fundamental level they are a belief system, and every belief system should be held to the same level of accountability if its believers commit violence motivated by it.

If OT is not important, why isn't it removed from the Bible? (rhetorical question). Did you blame christianity for Anders Breivik? Name a single hindutva follower who has done anything similar to Breivik.

You are lenient on religions. I am not lenient on even hinduism. I am a hindu who believes in Hindutva. If you want to generalize my belief system, then I want the same to be applied to every belief system and every religion, including your religion.

So you are saying your people don’t kill Muslims for praying in the open or eating or selling beef?

Is that the gist of your argument? I slap you and you present the other cheek? Cuz nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[CricketCartoons]

So you are saying your people don’t kill Muslims for praying in the open or eating or selling beef?

Is that the gist of your argument? I slap you and you present the other cheek? Cuz nothing could be farther from the truth.

My gist of the argument is that everyone has bad apples and our belief system should not be maligned because the actions of a few. And if the actions of a few is used to generalize, then it should be applied to all, every belief system and every religion.

 

[uppercut]

Because he is convinced beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that he is in the right and you are in the wrong when it comes to cows ( or infact anything to do with Hinduism ). No amount of evidence of *ANY* kind is going to budge most Muslims EVEN the well educated ones!!

So far the one and only one Muslim that I have interacted with on this forum who gets it is @DeadlyVenom .

Its a very eye opening experience to witness how doggedly they defend the indefensible.

 

[Stewie]

How many times do I have to school you?

My gist of the argument is that everyone has bad apples and our belief system should not be maligned because the actions of a few. And if the actions of a few is used to generalize, then it should be applied to all, every belief system and every religion.

Capiche?

So you are saying Hindus folks are the bad apples in Hinduism while at the same time being a proud carrying member of them?

is that some self deprecating philosophy from some new Hindu book or just some personal new age cartoonish philosophy you just came up with?

 

[CricketCartoons]

( I know I am preaching to the choir when I quote you but this needs to be said )


Because he is convinced beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that he is in the right and you are in the wrong when it comes to cows ( or infact anything to do with Hinduism ). No amount of evidence of *ANY* kind is going to budge most Muslims EVEN the well educated ones!!

So far the one and only one Muslim that I have interacted with on this forum who gets it is @DeadlyVenom .

Its a very eye opening experience to witness how doggedly they defend the indefensible.

I get that. I don't expect any non hindu to really honor my religious beliefs. And he is free to consume beef.

But it was something else. He came to taunt and mock my religious beliefs. The glee at causing me pain. That is only possible when he sees a hindu like me a sub human and deserving of ridicule and shame.

There are muslims who consume beef, but they will not come and use it to mock and humiliate a hindu just for the heck of it. and RexRex is a decent man by the look of it. So when he does it, it only means he sees me as subhuman and my religious beliefs as savagery.

 

[Stewie]

( I know I am preaching to the choir when I quote you but this needs to be said )


Because he is convinced beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that he is in the right and you are in the wrong when it comes to cows ( or infact anything to do with Hinduism ). No amount of evidence of *ANY* kind is going to budge most Muslims EVEN the well educated ones!!

So far the one and only one Muslim that I have interacted with on this forum who gets it is @DeadlyVenom .

Its a very eye opening experience to witness how doggedly they defend the indefensible.

What’s indefensible really? You claim to. E secular like US or UK but when you come and work here you love to sit in meetings with your boss munching on a steak. But in your own self proclaimed secular country you cannot allow others to eat the same juicy steak?

Then you claim Muslims are dogged here?

How much sense does that make?

 

[HalBass9]

Everyone understands that cows are sacred to Hindus, but what many fail to comprehend is why a non-Hindu must be lynched for this belief. What is even more remarkable is the way in which non-violent Hindus often feel compelled to justify such acts of violence, offering any excuse to defend them.

It seems some Hindus are advocating for an exclusively Hindu nation where no other religion would be allowed to claim citizenship and it is apparent that Hindus deserve it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

So you are saying Hindus folks are the bad apples in Hinduism while at the same time being a proud carrying member of them?

is that some self deprecating philosophy from some new Hindu book or just some personal new age cartoonish philosophy you just came up with?

Yes, exactly, that is what I meant. How amazing that you totally got it this time.

 

[Red-Indian]

( I know I am preaching to the choir when I quote you but this needs to be said )


Because he is convinced beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that he is in the right and you are in the wrong when it comes to cows ( or infact anything to do with Hinduism ). No amount of evidence of *ANY* kind is going to budge most Muslims EVEN the well educated ones!!

So far the one and only one Muslim that I have interacted with on this forum who gets it is @DeadlyVenom .

Its a very eye opening experience to witness how doggedly they defend the indefensible.

It's incredible how incapable religious folks are of seeing each other's viewpoints. Even relatively logical guys like @Stewie cannot believe that someone's religious beliefs can prevent them from eating something as delicious as beef. And that they can hold those beliefs sincerely.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Everyone understands that cows are sacred to Hindus, but what many fail to comprehend is why a non-Hindu must be lynched for this belief. What is even more remarkable is the way in which non-violent Hindus often feel compelled to justify such acts of violence, offering any excuse to defend them.

It seems some Hindus are advocating for an exclusively Hindu nation where no other religion would be allowed to claim citizenship and it is apparent that Hindus deserve it.

Did you read my post on Allama Iqbal?

 

[HalBass9]

Did you read my post on Allama Iqbal?

What about it?

 

[CricketCartoons]

What about it?

[PICTURES] Elderly Muslim man beaten up on train over suspicion of carrying beef in Maharashtra

So sad to watch , cowardly attack on an elderly person. In a video that went viral on social media shows a dozen people surrounding and assaulting the man, verbally abusing him and even hurling rape threats These RSs extremists are sick , diseased ========================================...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Because he is convinced beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that he is in the right and you are in the wrong when it comes to cows ( or infact anything to do with Hinduism ). No amount of evidence of *ANY* kind is going to budge most Muslims EVEN the well educated ones!!

So far the one and only one Muslim that I have interacted with on this forum who gets it is @DeadlyVenom .

Its a very eye opening experience to witness how doggedly they defend the indefensible.

It's a disappointing attitude.

I find the awful pictures of our holy Prophet truly heartbreaking. The ones who make them say it's just lines on paper why are you so upset and they speak in condescending ways telling me what I should feel and how I should express it.

So I can't in good faith say similar things to Hindus who feel offended at something others may consider "normal". It would make me a hypocrite.

 

[HalBass9]

It's a disappointing attitude.

I find the awful pictures of our holy Prophet truly heartbreaking. The ones who make them say it's just lines on paper why are you so upset and they speak in condescending ways telling me what I should feel and how I should express it.

So I can't in good faith say similar things to Hindus who feel offended at something others may consider "normal". It would make me a hypocrite.

Do you believe those who drew a cartoon or burnt a Quran deserves to be killed?

Or those who do it have the right to do whatever they wish to?

 

[HalBass9]

[PICTURES] Elderly Muslim man beaten up on train over suspicion of carrying beef in Maharashtra

So sad to watch , cowardly attack on an elderly person. In a video that went viral on social media shows a dozen people surrounding and assaulting the man, verbally abusing him and even hurling rape threats These RSs extremists are sick , diseased ========================================...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

Who am i supposed to defend or criticize here?

 

[Red-Indian]

Do you believe those who drew a cartoon or burnt a Quran deserves to be killed?

Or those who do it have the right to do whatever they wish to?

I don't think @DeadlyVenom does. Just as I don't believe say @cricketjoshila believes anyone who slaughters a cow deserves to be killed. Apologies to them if I'm speaking out of turn.

But I believe both of them are hurt by the events described - obscene portraits of your prophet and the death of a cow.

Of course, there's a few trolls who only pretend outrage and use this stuff to fuel their prejudices but that doesn't invalidate genuine feelings of the truly devout.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Who am i supposed to defend or criticize here?

Neither. Just an example of an intellectual supporting someone who committed murder. This is not something new. It takes all kind of people to advance an ideology: those on the streets who carry out the actions, the moderates who downplay or justify them, and the intellectuals who elevate and romanticize these acts, giving them a sense of legitimacy and purpose.

 

[uppercut]

Everyone understands that cows are sacred to Hindus, but what many fail to comprehend is why a non-Hindu must be lynched for this belief.

This has been answered numerous times in multiple threads ... here it is again :

Nobody truly believes anyone should be lynched. But unfortunately those that keep indulging in these kind of sacrilegious acts do not get the message unless its told to them in a language that they understand which is brute force. Its not like civilized means haven't been tried.

Evidence is RIGHT HERE in black and white where apart from one Muslim NOBODY else gets it and these are very well educated people with internet access. Now imagine the situation where most people are illiterate in real life. Infact when dealing with savages who have no respect for my beliefs being civilized would actually be construed as a sign of weakness and is very counterproductive. It only encourages them to double down. !!​

What is even more remarkable is the way in which non-violent Hindus often feel compelled to justify such acts of violence, offering any excuse to defend them.

Now that you have realized that it should tell you the magnitude of the sacrilege that has compelled the otherwise non-violent Hindu ( per your own words ) to act.

 

[HalBass9]

I don't think @DeadlyVenom does. Just as I don't believe say @cricketjoshila believes anyone who slaughters a cow deserves to be killed. Apologies to them if I'm speaking out of turn.

But I believe both of them are hurt by the events described - obscene portraits of your prophet and the death of a cow.

Of course, there's a few trolls who only pretend outrage and use this stuff to fuel their prejudices but that doesn't invalidate genuine feelings of the truly devout.

I don't believe DV does that, nor have I ever seen him make excuses for anyone who has killed in the name of hurt religious sentiments.

Hindutva supporters, on the other hand, have made plenty of excuses for lynching, often with the favorite line, 'You should respect Hindu laws.'

But what truly stands out is the justification of genocide based on events that supposedly happened millions of years ago.

 

[uppercut]

What’s indefensible really? You claim to. E secular like US or UK but when you come and work here you love to sit in meetings with your boss munching on a steak. But in your own self proclaimed secular country you cannot allow others to eat the same juicy steak?

Then you claim Muslims are dogged here?

How much sense does that make?

The problem here is your shallow understanding of secularism because secularism doesn't give anyone rights to demolish anyone elses religious beliefs. Forget secularism ... just simple common sense would go a long way in resolving this centuries old dispute. See post #1568 by @DeadlyVenom.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Do you believe those who drew a cartoon or burnt a Quran deserves to be killed?

Or those who do it have the right to do whatever they wish to?

No of course not. But I'd support them banning the drawing of such cartoons.

However let's be honest when Charlie Hedbo happened some in our community just said meh and shrugged their shoulders too.

In this thread it seems many have even denied Hindus the right to feel offended and tried to paint our own views on what is/isn't offensive and then ask them to abide by it. I don't think any Hindu has said they are happy that people are killed if they eat beef. They have just tried to show us how important the issue is to them.

 

[Stewie]

The problem here is your shallow understanding of secularism because secularism doesn't give anyone rights to pee on anyone elses religious beliefs. Forget secularism ... just simple common sense would go a long way in resolving this centuries old dispute. See post #1568 by @DeadlyVenom.

Oh so I have a shallow understanding of secularism? I live in the US where Hindus don’t go running after Muslims or Christian’s for eating beef or killing cows. I guess we are shallow seculars here?

 

[Stewie]

No of course not. But I'd support them banning the drawing of such cartoons.

However let's be honest when Charlie Hedbo happened some in our community just said meh and shrugged their shoulders too.

In this thread it seems many have even denied Hindus the right to feel offended and tried to paint our own views on what is/isn't offensive and then ask them to abide by it. I don't think any Hindu has said they are happy that people are killed if they eat beef. They have just tried to show us how important the issue is to them.

You are not making any sense. How have you arrived at the conclusion that Hindus are being denied the right to feel offended?

How can one even enforce such a denial?

They can feel offended all they want. But if they want to be considered a truly secular and democratic state, they have to allow Muslims the right to sacrifice a cow and eat it if they want to.

It can be done in a discreet way, they dont have to do it right in front of Hindus.

I have seen hundreds of posts from Hindus championing separation of church and state. It’s hypercritical of them to do that on one hand and on the other force this law on their people when they claim to be secular.

 

[Stewie]

No of course not. But I'd support them banning the drawing of such cartoons.

However let's be honest when Charlie Hedbo happened some in our community just said meh and shrugged their shoulders too.

In this thread it seems many have even denied Hindus the right to feel offended and tried to paint our own views on what is/isn't offensive and then ask them to abide by it. I don't think any Hindu has said they are happy that people are killed if they eat beef. They have just tried to show us how important the issue is to them.

They have also tried to show to us how important their right to draw cartoons of our religious figures is to them as well.
They want this freedom. You can review the popular Hindu opinion here on various threads.

 

[uppercut]

Oh so I have a shallow understanding of secularism? I live in the US where Hindus don’t go running after Muslims or Christian’s for eating beef or killing cows. I guess we are shallow seculars here?

Nor do Muslims go on a rampage when their religious sentiments are not respected by the majority in the US so does that mean the things you consider sacrilegious are actually not? Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

They have also tried to show to us how important their right to draw cartoons of our religious figures is to them as well.
They want this freedom. You can review the popular Hindu opinion here on various threads.

They can say what they like. I won't change my beliefs or mindset as a reaction to what they say.

 

[uppercut]

I get that. I don't expect any non hindu to really honor my religious beliefs. And he is free to consume beef.

But it was something else. He came to taunt and mock my religious beliefs. The glee at causing me pain. That is only possible when he sees a hindu like me a sub human and deserving of ridicule and shame.

Add utter uncompromising contempt to the description and it will be closer to reality. Now throw in the "guaranteed" rewards in the afterlife if he were to convert us kaffirs ... its a nobrainer as to why intolerance comes standard amongst vast majority of Muslims.

 

[Stewie]

Nor do Muslims go on a rampage when their religious sentiments are not respected by the majority in the US so does that mean the things you consider sacrilegious are actually not? Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Not sure what you are trying to prove here either.

Kindly stop blaming Islam itself and Muslims all over the world for what you are experiencing in your own country due to your latest anti Islam and anti Muslim policies. That’s all I am going to add to it.

Muslims are second in the world after Christians and in most settled civilized nations of the world they are productive and peaceful members of society. It only seems like in India you guys have this problem. Maybe a more introspective look into why that is is needed.

 

[Stewie]

They can say what they like. I won't change my beliefs or mindset as a reaction to what they say.

It is easy for you to say that because you are not a Muslim living in India now, are you?

Or do you live in India?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It is easy for you to say that because you are not a Muslim living in India now, are you?

Or do you live in India?

Even if I was in India.

I won't let the behaviour of radicals who think it's ok to belittle my holy figures allow me to change my point of view to the extent I belittle there's. I'm not a reactionary.

If I lived in India I would happy follow the scholarship of many Ulema who have advised people to avoid eating beef as it hurts Hindu feelings.

 

[Stewie]

Even if I was in India.

I won't let the behaviour of radicals who think it's ok to belittle my holy figures allow me to change my point of view to the extent I belittle there's. I'm not a reactionary.

If I lived in India I would happy follow the scholarship of many Ulema who have advised people to avoid eating beef as it hurts Hindu feelings.

Fair enough. I respect that. That’s your personal view and you are willing to sacrifice a personal freedom. I’m not sure how many Hindus would do something similar for their Muslim countrymen though.

It also puts into question their status as a truly democratic and secular state.

 

[Red-Indian]

They have also tried to show to us how important their right to draw cartoons of our religious figures is to them as well.
They want this freedom. You can review the popular Hindu opinion here on various threads.

So essentially you're not willing to accept that Hindus (insofar as they're capable) want to protect one animal they consider sacred - the cow from being slaughtered.

And you don't need Hindus to accept that you want to protect (insofar as you're capable) one historical figure you consider sacred - your prophet from ridicule.

You want both sides to have the freedom to slaughter and ridicule and you want that no violence to result from this.

I think you or your parents have left the subcontinent too long ago and have no conception of the identity link to religion here.

 

[Stewie]

So essentially you're not willing to accept that Hindus (insofar as they're capable) want to protect one animal they consider sacred - the cow from being slaughtered.

And you don't need Hindus to accept that you want to protect (insofar as you're capable) one historical figure you consider sacred - your prophet from ridicule.

You want both sides to have the freedom to slaughter and ridicule and you want that no violence to result from this.

I think you or your parents have left the subcontinent too long ago and have no conception of the identity link to religion here.

On the contrary, I do.


And I also believe the whole argument from my side has been India is not truly secular in the basis of this belief.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Fair enough. I respect that. That’s your personal view and you are willing to sacrifice a personal freedom. I’m not sure how many Hindus would do something similar for their Muslim countrymen though.

It also puts into question their status as a truly democratic and secular state.

Again with respect to Hindus I don't give two hoots what they would or wouldn't do for their own Muslim countrymen.

I can't base my behavior and morality on the behavior of another community.

India isn't secular. There are laws that benefit Muslims too. They aren't perfect and Modi is setting them back further but they have done well to create a system that functions despite the chaos and variables that affect them.

Anyway with regards to beef do you know Humayan never ate it after he saw communal violence and Akbar actually banned it. Through to modern times Maulana Muhammad Ali refrained from it and encouraged Muslims to and Deoband Ulema have asked people to be sensitive to Hindu beliefs and refrain from slaughtering on Eid.

I only learned all of this not too recently. I am proud of this tradition and open mindedness of the subcontinent Muslims and hope it continues. That's the type of society I'd want to live in.

 

[Stewie]

Again with respect to Hindus I don't give two hoots what they would or wouldn't do for their own Muslim countrymen.

I can't base my behavior and morality on the behavior of another community.

India isn't secular. There are laws that benefit Muslims too. They aren't perfect and Modi is setting them back further but they have done well to create a system that functions despite the chaos and variables that affect them.

Anyway with regards to beef do you know Humayan never ate it after he saw communal violence and Akbar actually banned it. Through to modern times Maulana Muhammad Ali refrained from it and encouraged Muslims to and Deoband Ulema have asked people to be sensitive to Hindu beliefs and refrain from slaughtering on Eid.

I only learned all of this not too recently. I am proud of this tradition and open mindedness of the subcontinent Muslims and hope it continues. That's the type of society I'd want to live in.

Thank you!


This is all I have been trying to say. Everything else here is just noise!

 

[uppercut]

Not sure what you are trying to prove here either.

you tell me ... you were the one that introduced what happens in USA to prove whatever you wanted to prove about hinduism whereas the topic of this thread is related to what happens in India.

Kindly stop blaming Islam itself and Muslims all over the world for what you are experiencing in your own country due to your latest anti Islam and anti Muslim policies. That’s all I am going to add to it.

Muslims are second in the world after Christians and in most settled civilized nations of the world they are productive and peaceful members of society. It only seems like in India you guys have this problem. Maybe a more introspective look into why that is is needed.

This thread and most importantly YOUR OWN despicable posts and the contempt you have for beliefs of Hindus tells a live and very real story of why there can be no hope for peaceful co-existence with muslims. It just aint happening no matter how much we try. And the Western world by and large is realizing that too.

 

[Red-Indian]

Thank you!


This is all I have been trying to say. Everything else here is just noise!

Ah okay. If that's the term that offends you, what would you like a country that allows some exceptions to each of its religions - Hinduism (cow slaughter ban), Islam (polygamy), Christianity (blasphemy) to call itself? Maybe multi-religious? I'm fine with that personally. I'm not wedded to the term 'secular.'

 

[uppercut]

I’m not sure how many Hindus would do something similar for their Muslim countrymen though.

Are you kidding me ? There is not a single cartoon that has been drawn in India that mocks muslim sentiments whereas I can assure you that Muslims have absolutely no compunctions at all when it comes to deliberately trampling on religious sentiments of non-muslims. ( Just look at this very thread for evidence !! )
​

 

[Stewie]

you tell me ... you were the one that introduced what happens in USA to prove whatever you wanted to prove about hinduism whereas the topic of this thread is related to what happens in India.




This thread and most importantly YOUR OWN despicable posts and the contempt you have for beliefs of Hindus tells a live and very real story of why there can be no hope for peaceful co-existence with muslims. It just aint happening no matter how much we try. And the Western world by and large is realizing that too.

I’m not sure what despicable posts are you referring to here? I have reiterated multiple times I respect the right of each nation or group to its belief.

But it’s foolish of you guys to believe you can accuse Muslims and their faith for everything under the sun and not expect a backlash. If you are pointing to my posts trying to prove my point of ugliness in Hinduism as well, I assure you it was in the manner of a response. I have no grudge against Hindus per se because they don’t infringe on my liberties and freedoms as an American. But I won’t stay silent if this forum is going to be used as a target ground by Hindutva brigade to criticize our faith.

Make of it what you will

 

[Stewie]

Ah okay. If that's the term that offends you, what would you like a country that allows some exceptions to each of its religions - Hinduism (cow slaughter ban), Islam (polygamy), Christianity (blasphemy) to call itself? Maybe multi-religious? I'm fine with that personally. I'm not wedded to the term 'secular.'

Not my place or business. But it’s certainly not what most Indians aspire to be at the moment. If anything it has gone back a generation perhaps. You guys definitely had the higher ground till the Hindutva stuff came along. Now we have people here from your country advocating a Hindu rashtra. Changing the name to bharat and all that jazz.

Then the same people turn around go to other threads and parrot talk of freedom of speech.

To me the way things are going in India, it’s not too far behind the state of religious extremism of sort we see in Pakistan sadly.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is easy for you to say that because you are not a Muslim living in India now, are you?

Or do you live in India?

Do you live in India?

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don't think @DeadlyVenom does. Just as I don't believe say @cricketjoshila believes anyone who slaughters a cow deserves to be killed. Apologies to them if I'm speaking out of turn.

But I believe both of them are hurt by the events described - obscene portraits of your prophet and the death of a cow.

Of course, there's a few trolls who only pretend outrage and use this stuff to fuel their prejudices but that doesn't invalidate genuine feelings of the truly devout.

Most posters here believe that

What Muslims want is their right, but what Hindus want is negotiable.

Pakistan is Islamic but they want to give certificates to India on secularism.

Hindus here unequivocally condemned any insults to their prophet, but when cows are killed you will hear arguments about how its their religious right or fundamental right etc etc.

All this when they aren't even Indians.

 

[Stewie]

Most posters here believe that

What Muslims want is their right, but what Hindus want is negotiable.

Pakistan is Islamic but they want to give certificates to India on secularism.

Hindus here unequivocally condemned any insults to their prophet, but when cows are killed you will hear arguments about how its their religious right or fundamental right etc etc.

All this when they aren't even Indians.

Most of the stuff you are responding to with your post is about Hindu insistence on the right of freedom of speech and refusal to consider the respect of our Prophet. You can go back and view those comments mainly from people like @rpant_gabba

There are certain sections within Hindu/indian/so-called atheists who believe Muslims should not be extended such a courtesy. If you make claims like that of course you are going to face retaliation from Muslim posters here who love an opportunity to shove the mirror in their neighbors’ faces about claims regarding their so-called secularism.

There are also posters here such as yourself who have openly called out not just Muslims but Islam as a faith for telling its followers to go kill the non-believers. Furthermore any response by Muslims regarding the historical context of that stand is ignored by Hindus.

There are certain reasonable Indian posters here who admit there are flaws on both sides. There are also good points on both sides.

So kindly take your nonsense elsewhere and stop making blanket statements. Muslims don’t and would never claim for unreasonable things as rights. That’s another POS nonsense from you.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Hindu insistence on the right of freedom of speech

"Insistence" : how dare people exercise their constitutional rights! the horror

and refusal to consider the respect of our Prophet.

Damn straight. he is your prophet. not mine. you have the right to hold whoever you chose in reverence. I have the right to mock the religious fairy tales and religious character as I see fit.

Only one religions followers go around murdering people for exercising the rights in the their land.

You can go back and view those comments mainly from people like @rpant_gabba

Yup. I'm proud of those comments

 

[Stewie]

"Insistence" : how dare people exercise their constitutional rights! the horror

Damn straight. he is your prophet. not mine. you have the right to hold whoever you chose in reverence. I have the right to mock the religious fairy tales and religious character as I see fit.

Only one religions followers go around murdering people for exercising the rights in the their land.

Yup. I'm proud of those comments

You know very well what I mean when I used the word insistence to have the right to insult our prophet, not just freedom of speech.


Well then be prepared for reactions from our side. Unfortunately, this is the ugly side of it. We will dig up the ugliest, deepest darkest parts of Hinduism and Hindus and shove them in your face. There is no dearth of such stuff . And no matter how much you claim to be an atheist, unfortunately you will all get lumped into it.

I know it’s ugly but that’s the world of online forums. Lol