Why is there a difference in perception between Pakistan & India in the world?

[Tusker]

@TikkiTakka

I guess it's just easy to be bitter cause Hindu kings lost all the wars they fought to superior Muslim armies. So it's only what the Muslims did that has been written in history.

Curious to know what your take is on this topic of what the past Muslim rulers did. Do you see them as benevolent great rulers that did nothing wrong or something else ?

 

[Tusker]

It appears that PP’s latest troll has created quite a buzz with this thread. It is easy to ignore this because it is self-explanatory, but because I find myself with a few spare minutes, I would add my two cents and state the obvious reasons.

- For multiple reasons that need no explanation, Islam is considered as the most dangerous religion in the world. Yes it is stereotypical, but there is an element of truth in every stereotype.

Islam does not propagate extremism, but there is potential in Islamic scriptures and teachings for misinterpretation. It is not a coincidence that the majority of the rampant terrorists organizations in the world today carry the banners of Islam.

The fact that Pakistan is an Islamic country - and was created in the name of Islam, and is one of the most terror-stricken countries in the world today - is the single biggest reason why it has a poor image in comparison to India.

Without Islam, Pakistan pretty much doesn’t have an identity. Shashi Tharoor was correct in pointing out that without Hinduism and Islam, Indians will be Indians and Persians will be Persians, but Pakistanis will be second-rate Indians. It is a hurtful statement but it is true.

However, there are other reasons as well. Pakistan as a country has not been able to escape the shadow of India and carve its own identity. Naturally, the fact that it is much smaller geographically does not help either. Much of Pakistan’s culture has been inherited from India’s and the uniqueness does not stand out because it’s magnitude is insignificant.

Pakistani Punjab culture is Indian and the northern culture is largely Afghani. It is only the South that truly represents Pakistani culture, but it is not celebrated enough because of the size of Punjab. As a result, in the West, the culture of Pakistan is perceived as Indian and we have not been successful in bridging a gap between the two.

Moreover, India’s stable democracy compared to Pakistan’s chaotic politics has also influenced the impression of the two countries. India has also made far greater contributions to the business world as well as entertainment.

All in all, Pakistan is pretty much a poor man’s India. An inferior version, and that was always going to happen with the way the partition was carried forward. There was a good reason why Jinnah was not in favor of it until the end, because carving out a small portion from a massive country, and giving it a new name and a new flag meant that Pakistan was always going to live in India’s shadow.

However, we still had enough resources to make our own indentity but unfortunately, we have largely failed.

Don't agree with the bolded part ... the reason is Everyone in the West associates Pakistan with Islamic Culture therefore you get lumped with the Middle East more than anything Indian. Afterall this was Pakistans main agenda. To be more islamic and un-Hindu/Indian as possible. That worked very well and the crowing glory was finding OBL residing for years in a compound stones throw away from Pak Military complex. Except now Pakistan realizes that it was a bad Idea.

The thing is in this day and age of instant news bad news travels faster. And bad news for the White man travels even faster. There is no good news that Pakistan can have for the West. All the bad press adds up over a period a time and I cant remember any good news coming out of Pakistan.

This is why India has distinctly better perception in the West which they get to see thru its millions of immigrants who contribute disproportionately more to the society than their numbers. Add Yoga, Buddhism, Arts, Entertainment , Spiritual and very visible prominent and respectable celebrities ( Nadella, Nooyi, Sanjay Gupta, Sundar etc) then it becomes a completely one sided affair in favor of India. Especially when Pak get told very publicly by the Whitehouse that we wont put up with your agenda . I cant ever Imagine such a thing happening to India !!

 

[yasir]

It appears that PP’s latest troll has created quite a buzz with this thread. It is easy to ignore this because it is self-explanatory, but because I find myself with a few spare minutes, I would add my two cents and state the obvious reasons.

- For multiple reasons that need no explanation, Islam is considered as the most dangerous religion in the world. Yes it is stereotypical, but there is an element of truth in every stereotype.

Islam does not propagate extremism, but there is potential in Islamic scriptures and teachings for misinterpretation. It is not a coincidence that the majority of the rampant terrorists organizations in the world today carry the banners of Islam.

The fact that Pakistan is an Islamic country - and was created in the name of Islam, and is one of the most terror-stricken countries in the world today - is the single biggest reason why it has a poor image in comparison to India.

Without Islam, Pakistan pretty much doesn’t have an identity. Shashi Tharoor was correct in pointing out that without Hinduism and Islam, Indians will be Indians and Persians will be Persians, but Pakistanis will be second-rate Indians. It is a hurtful statement but it is true.

However, there are other reasons as well. Pakistan as a country has not been able to escape the shadow of India and carve its own identity. Naturally, the fact that it is much smaller geographically does not help either. Much of Pakistan’s culture has been inherited from India’s and the uniqueness does not stand out because it’s magnitude is insignificant.

Pakistani Punjab culture is Indian and the northern culture is largely Afghani. It is only the South that truly represents Pakistani culture, but it is not celebrated enough because of the size of Punjab. As a result, in the West, the culture of Pakistan is perceived as Indian and we have not been successful in bridging a gap between the two.

Moreover, India’s stable democracy compared to Pakistan’s chaotic politics has also influenced the impression of the two countries. India has also made far greater contributions to the business world as well as entertainment.

All in all, Pakistan is pretty much a poor man’s India. An inferior version, and that was always going to happen with the way the partition was carried forward. There was a good reason why Jinnah was not in favor of it until the end, because carving out a small portion from a massive country, and giving it a new name and a new flag meant that Pakistan was always going to live in India’s shadow.

However, we still had enough resources to make our own indentity but unfortunately, we have largely failed.

You have covered the reasons pretty well. Let me have my take on some of them.

Islam as identity

This is the biggest misconception or identity Crisis Pakistanis has throughout their life. Islam as some tribe or global identity or Islam first is wet dream of few never shared in masses for most part of history. Our so called Islamic values are more shared desi values then islamic. Arab Vs Ajam issue existed before Islam and still exist today. Just Mohammad saying few words did not changed that. Saudis and Irans still fight today as they were before islam on similar cultural and race grounds. Amys and Abbais had similar dividing line, so was the case with Ottamans...Those identity infightings keep on lingering throughout Islamic history... In our text books, we add lot of masala to present a rosy and unified picture to make sure we keep living in our own bubble

In in Islamic world, we are second class muslims, Arab nor Irani consider us as equal. For them Pakistanis are cheap labor, there are no special perks for being muslims. Islam ka maroor sarif hamaray paat maa authta hai...Although they use us from time to time for dirty laundry, by paying our Army, this may expand a bit, with our army looking for money

Pakistan was made by a western inspired guy, who himself in many ways had dual personality. He was very anti-religious from his life style, yet used religion for politics. Many of his predecessors, Bhutto, Benazir and now IK are using the same model...Taking advantage of identity insecurity...

Religion as identity is backward and old ideology, works in past for illiterate population, basically manipulated by people who wanted dum down soldiers to fight blindly for them. Pakistan is still keeping this identity by feeding a fat army(or Army is the one driving this vision), it has little intellectual base and more force feed. In order to keep the monster alive, we need a monstrous army

Carving your own identity artificially

Culture is something that is formed over long period of time, based on how people live their lives. Its hard to impose or carve out artificial culture. Pathans and Punjabis had slightly different culture, you cannot make it one, same goes for North and South India, there is no unified Indian culture. India never was one unified country in history, they shared some values, well as a human we shared values with rest of the world.

For instance, India in last 5000 years for most part was consists of small independent states, who used to trade and share little across geography boundaries. That's why people from north to south, to east and west look different, have different customs and so many languages. Culture of greater Punjab was lot more cohesive than to down south or Bangal, same is true for those regions. That is still true to an extend. There is no single Indian identity, that identity is a new thing, carved in last 70 years, when Indians starting to go out of the country, before that focus of identity was lot more local and cast driven, as culture was on those lines... That's why idea of India as a federation, with 4/5 big regions/states like Punjab/Center/South/Bengal was more appealing than dividing it on base of religion. Division based on religion is not natural, specially when religion has to be separated from state to progress. Religion is no more a central concept for society, its divisive and has add little value to social bottom line in last few centuries. Most of the progress is because of secular institutions...


In future as world become smaller and ways of life merge and or interdependent, few hundred years from now, there will be less cultures, there will be more high level of divisions, countries are just administrative domains, which will diffuse together...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Technically just British, not Indian, even as per accordance to Indian law. So yes, a whole lot worse.

Might explain why no poster here has ever admitted to being a British Indian. Adopting names like Bobby, Ben, Freddie, or Nikki are probably their way of attempting to integrate and disappear in the melting pot that is Great Britain. But then it does make you wonder how Wembley stadium gets packed out when the BJP leader comes to give a speech. I guess all the Travellers from around this green and pleasant land suddenly remember their discarded identity when their hero comes to town.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Might explain why no poster here has ever admitted to being a British Indian. Adopting names like Bobby, Ben, Freddie, or Nikki are probably their way of attempting to integrate and disappear in the melting pot that is Great Britain. But then it does make you wonder how Wembley stadium gets packed out when the BJP leader comes to give a speech. I guess all the Travellers from around this green and pleasant land suddenly remember their discarded identity when their hero comes to town.

Names like Bobby Nikki Ben are all found in India esp bobby and nikki are very common.

You seem to forget that people of every religion can be Indian. So name has no significance, roots have.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Names like Bobby Nikki Ben are all found in India esp bobby and nikki are very common.

You seem to forget that people of every religion can be Indian. So name has no significance, roots have.

If roots have more significance, why change your name to Bobby or Nikki in the first place? I am thinking of a couple of famous US politicians here who definitely weren't given those names by their parents.

 

[Sidilicious]

The best Indian restaurant in London is arguably Benares and it serves both veg and non veg.

You need to practice better at lying.

All Michelin star 'Indian' restaurant in London are owned by Indians.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Still waiting for a British Indian to claim their proud heritage despite all the apparent knowledge of ownership of Michelin starred restaurants in London.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If roots have more significance, why change your name to Bobby or Nikki in the first place? I am thinking of a couple of famous US politicians here who definitely weren't given those names by their parents.

So Bobby and Nikki make them non indian origin?

A certain Bobby uses surname Jindal.

 

[Musakhel]

About Zayn Malik . His Dad is Pakistani. His mom is Irish or something . So can one claim Zayn is of Pakistani origin or Irish ?

All eastern cultures claim lineage from fathers side, otherwise Indians should start claiming mughals kings as their own after all most of them were half Indian.

 

[Saeed]

Its sad to see so many people have to brag about what other people achieved in order to feel good about themselves. I wonder what they are compensating for?

 

[R3verse Swing]

The fact that Pakistan is an Islamic country - and was created in the name of Islam, and is one of the most terror-stricken countries in the world today - is the single biggest reason why it has a poor image in comparison to India.

Woefully incorrect.

I can pick 100 people at random in the UK, and 99% of them will not have the foggiest of ideas that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. People who think Pakistan has a bad reputation/image because of Islam need to think again. If Islam is the reason for negative perception around Pakistan, then how comes the likes of UAE, Malaysia, or Indonesia are held in higher regard in terms of perception?

Furthermore, the perception of Islam is a relatively new thing in the West, let’s face it, before 9/11, not many in the West had an inkling of what Islam is; no, the top prize for the worst perception goes to Jews. This is a fact.

Anti-Semitism sits on a pedestal compared to Islamophobia. More Celebrities, Politicians, Citizens in the UK are arrested, charged, suspended, sacked, or fined for Anti-Semitism compared to Islamophobic crimes. To add further proof in the pudding, Israel has the worst perception in the UK before any other nation around the globe, followed by Russia, then North Korea. NONE of these countries has anything to do with Islam.

War is the main reason why Pakistan has poor perception in the UK, nothing else. Not Islam, not Terrorism. War sells in the UK. Whether it is the war on terror, the Falklands war, Israel/Palestine, war against the EU, a skirmish in Kashmir, the cold war, war in the ME, or war in the streets of Bradford, you name it, the media ensures that war is reported and on the front-page news – and this sets the perception of the public. British people are fascinated with war. Did I mention, now with Trump in the White House, the perception of the USA is heading towards the drains too.

In other words, the media is to blame, not Islam, not Terrorism, but the media, and it’s the media who set the perception. No guesses for who controls the media in the West.

 

[Snak3eye5]

If roots have more significance, why change your name to Bobby or Nikki in the first place? I am thinking of a couple of famous US politicians here who definitely weren't given those names by their parents.

So you’ve never heard of Indian names like Bobby Deol or Nikki Kaur / Nikki Singh ?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So you’ve never heard of Indian names like Bobby Deol or Nikki Kaur / Nikki Singh ?

I didn't realise Bobby or Nikki were Indian names. Is this going to be going along the same lines as Buddhism being absorbed into Hinduism?

Where's Yossarian? We need that Goodness Gracious Me video.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Might explain why no poster here has ever admitted to being a British Indian. Adopting names like Bobby, Ben, Freddie, or Nikki are probably their way of attempting to integrate and disappear in the melting pot that is Great Britain. But then it does make you wonder how Wembley stadium gets packed out when the BJP leader comes to give a speech. I guess all the Travellers from around this green and pleasant land suddenly remember their discarded identity when their hero comes to town.

Don’t forget Keith!

Wembley stadium was mostly rammed with Indian students, Indian Tier 2 and ILRs, which explains why they were packed. The inability to visit India while meeting their visa requirements was perhaps too much to bear. Though Sikhs were nowhere to be seen. Indian Muslims? Forget it.

I still remember how 2 of my Indian colleagues at work (on Tier 2 visa) boasted how Modi was speaking English and it was the best thing they had ever seen/heard. Wow, what an achievement – the guy could actually speak English! To them, Modi was a hero, not because he was a leader, but because he was a Hindu.

It’s a fact in UK, *Indian Punjabis* like to use English sounding names. Their view on India is perhaps worse than their view on Pakistan. They try to distance themselves from India, by changing their names to Bob or Ash or Dave. Operation Blue Star remains fresh in their memories.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Don’t forget Keith!

Wembley stadium was mostly rammed with Indian students, Indian Tier 2 and ILRs, which explains why they were packed. The inability to visit India while meeting their visa requirements was perhaps too much to bear. Though Sikhs were nowhere to be seen. Indian Muslims? Forget it.

I still remember how 2 of my Indian colleagues at work (on Tier 2 visa) boasted how Modi was speaking English and it was the best thing they had ever seen/heard. Wow, what an achievement – the guy could actually speak English! To them, Modi was a hero, not because he was a leader, but because he was a Hindu.

It’s a fact in UK, *Indian Punjabis* like to use English sounding names. Their view on India is perhaps worse than their view on Pakistan. They try to distance themselves from India, by changing their names to Bob or Ash or Dave. Operation Blue Star remains fresh in their memories.

You don't need to tell me, I grew up with a lot Bobbys and Jimmys, good lads for the most part apart from their weird discomfort with the idea of Pakistan. That's why I would love it if we had a few British Indians on this site rather than Modi fans who burn with anger when I mention Bobbys or Nikkis being English names. Nothing wrong with it really, it's just a name.

 

[R3verse Swing]

This is why India has distinctly better perception in the West which they get to see thru its millions of immigrants who contribute disproportionately more to the society than their numbers. Add Yoga, Buddhism, Arts, Entertainment , Spiritual and very visible prominent and respectable celebrities ( Nadella, Nooyi, Sanjay Gupta, Sundar etc) then it becomes a completely one sided affair in favor of India. Especially when Pak get told very publicly by the Whitehouse that we wont put up with your agenda . I cant ever Imagine such a thing happening to India !!

No worse, Modi was banned from entering the USA [and the UK!] on religious extremist grounds. No Pakistani leader has experienced this fate at the hands of the Americans. I mean saying we don’t agree with your agenda is one thing, banning an Indian official is on some next level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_barred_or_excluded_from_the_United_States

In 2005, when he was Chief Minister of Gujarat state in India, Modi was denied a diplomatic A-2 visa to the United States. In addition, the B-1/B-2 visa that had previously been granted to him was revoked, under a section of the Immigration and Nationality Act which makes any foreign government official who was responsible or "directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom" ineligible for the visa.[31] Modi remains the only person ever to be banned to travel to the United States of America under the International Religious Freedom Act (IRFA) provision of US Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).[32] In 2012, A Special Investigation Team (SIT) appointed by the Indian Supreme Court found no "prosecutable evidence" against Modi and cleared him of all charges. The US visa issue morphed into a diplomatic hurdle in bilateral India–United States relations when Narendra Modi became the Prime Minister of India in 2014. Modi was issued a visa to visit the US in September 2014 after becoming the Prime Minister of India.[33] In a volte-face by the US administration, Modi was invited to address a joint session of both houses of the US Congress which he did in June 2016. In 2017, he made a state visit to the US on President Trump's invitation. US President Barack Obama visited India twice to meet Prime Minister Modi, the only US President to have visited India twice in just two years.

Ouch.

Then again, like it has been said, money changes everything, which is why the West only cares about India, not it's culture - thus lifting the ban when Modi became PM.

 

[gani999]

I didn't realise Bobby or Nikki were Indian names. Is this going to be going along the same lines as Buddhism being absorbed into Hinduism?

Where's Yossarian? We need that Goodness Gracious Me video.

It is a trend, albeit a tad annoying one, among Indian Punjabis to keep such names. I don't know about the UK but it most certainly is there in India.

 

[Tusker]

No worse, Modi was banned from entering the USA [and the UK!] on religious extremist grounds. No Pakistani leader has experienced this fate at the hands of the Americans. I mean saying we don’t agree with your agenda is one thing, banning an Indian official is on some next level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_barred_or_excluded_from_the_United_States

Ouch.

Then again, like it has been said, money changes everything, which is why the West only cares about India, not it's culture - thus lifting the ban when Modi became PM.

So you are comparing an individual (who at that time was nowhere close to being a PM) who was singled out due to shady politics and one-upmanship to the state of Pakistan the nation ?

BTW USA just didn't lift the ban ... it also invited him to address the US Congress ... nothing like open acknowledgment of mistake.

 

[Traveller55]

Woefully incorrect.

I can pick 100 people at random in the UK, and 99% of them will not have the foggiest of ideas that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. People who think Pakistan has a bad reputation/image because of Islam need to think again. If Islam is the reason for negative perception around Pakistan, then how comes the likes of UAE, Malaysia, or Indonesia are held in higher regard in terms of perception?

Furthermore, the perception of Islam is a relatively new thing in the West, let’s face it, before 9/11, not many in the West had an inkling of what Islam is; no, the top prize for the worst perception goes to Jews. This is a fact.

Anti-Semitism sits on a pedestal compared to Islamophobia. More Celebrities, Politicians, Citizens in the UK are arrested, charged, suspended, sacked, or fined for Anti-Semitism compared to Islamophobic crimes. To add further proof in the pudding, Israel has the worst perception in the UK before any other nation around the globe, followed by Russia, then North Korea. NONE of these countries has anything to do with Islam.

War is the main reason why Pakistan has poor perception in the UK, nothing else. Not Islam, not Terrorism. War sells in the UK. Whether it is the war on terror, the Falklands war, Israel/Palestine, war against the EU, a skirmish in Kashmir, the cold war, war in the ME, or war in the streets of Bradford, you name it, the media ensures that war is reported and on the front-page news – and this sets the perception of the public. British people are fascinated with war. Did I mention, now with Trump in the White House, the perception of the USA is heading towards the drains too.

In other words, the media is to blame, not Islam, not Terrorism, but the media, and it’s the media who set the perception. No guesses for who controls the media in the West.

So the media is to blame for exposing Islamic terrorism, not Islam itself. Brilliant.

 

[R3verse Swing]

So the media is to blame for exposing Islamic terrorism, not Islam itself. Brilliant.

Exposing Islamic terrorism? You make it sound like it is a big secret.

More people have died in the UK at the hands of the IRA between the 70s and 90s, compared to all of the victims combined of so called Islamic terrorism in the West. Not only that, the media is now labelling any individual killing in the name of an ideology as terrorism (Darren Osborne being the latest) – The Islamic terrorism tag is dying a slow death.

Islam is not to blame; the UK can see this. More shops (non-Islamic) catering for Muslims, more Restaurants (non-Islamic) catering for Muslims. More financial services including Bonds, ETF, Mortgages, all complying with Islamic standards. All of these on the rise. Heck, the Mayor of London is of Pakistani origin and was voted by the majority of White indigenous brits. Where as Indian origin politicians are making front page news for the wrong reasons like Keith Vaz and Preeti Patel - both out of their jobs.

Though yes, the media is to blame for coverage. Terrorism makes the front page news, but news like Women’s Rights, Child rape, Religious intolerance, poverty, education, and public health in India make it on the pages of 15 to 20, but not on social media. On social media such news is upfront. BBC. LBC, The Times, Telegraph etc. It’s precisely why Indians come online to protect a false image of their country and the comments are ripped to shreds by indigenous brits.

Media sets the perception. This is the point. People know the reality of India, but money talks. In a couple of years you will have to come back with a better line than terrorism.

 

[Traveller55]

Exposing Islamic terrorism? You make it sound like it is a big secret.

More people have died in the UK at the hands of the IRA between the 70s and 90s, compared to all of the victims combined of so called Islamic terrorism in the West. Not only that, the media is now labelling any individual killing in the name of an ideology as terrorism (Darren Osborne being the latest) – The Islamic terrorism tag is dying a slow death.

Acknowledging any individual killing as terrorism is a good thing. But make no mistake, killing in the name of Islam will always be called what it is - Islamic terrorism.

Islam is not to blame; the UK can see this. More shops (non-Islamic) catering for Muslims, more Restaurants (non-Islamic) catering for Muslims. More financial services including Bonds, ETF, Mortgages, all complying with Islamic standards. All of these on the rise. Heck, the Mayor of London is of Pakistani origin and was voted by the majority of White indigenous brits. Where as Indian origin politicians are making front page news for the wrong reasons like Keith Vaz and Preeti Patel - both out of their jobs.

Its the PC-brigade being shut down by loud Islamists. The push and pull of Islamists vs liberal will continue.
And yes, Islam is to blame.
And its pretty self evident.

We don't have Christian terrorists killing in the name of Jesus. Or Hindus killing in the name of Krishna.
Or Buddhists killing in the name of Buddha. There are no other religious counterparts to Islamic terror outfits like Boko Haram, ISIS, LeT, etc.

So Islam is to blame and I am glad the media is covering it as is.

Though yes, the media is to blame for coverage. Terrorism makes the front page news, but news like Women’s Rights, Child rape, Religious intolerance, poverty, education, and public health in India make it on the pages of 15 to 20, but not on social media. On social media such news is upfront. BBC. LBC, The Times, Telegraph etc. It’s precisely why Indians come online to protect a false image of their country and the comments are ripped to shreds by indigenous brits.

So News-media is to blame, because people care about terrorism more and they put all the Islamic terrorism stuff as front page news, but can't find Hindu terrorism or Christian terrorism. Sounds like Islam is to blame to me and you are griping that they are not hiding terrorism news in the back pages to protect Islam.

Media sets the perception. This is the point. People know the reality of India, but money talks. In a couple of years you will have to come back with a better line than terrorism.

There is no smoke without fire. From Phillipines to Spain, the common thread of individual and group-sponsored terrorism is Islam. No other religion has nutjobs killing in the name of their God/Gods, no other religion has terror outfits with stated goal of bringing a religious code along via violence, not remotely to the same degree.

As I said, acceptance is the first step to recovery and the big reason Islamic world has fallen behind the civilized world (and the gap continues to grow) is because most of the Islamic world is in denial of the problem.

 

[R3verse Swing]

So you are comparing an individual (who at that time was nowhere close to being a PM) who was singled out due to shady politics and one-upmanship to the state of Pakistan the nation ?

Yes I will compare an individual, after all Modi is a representative of India at the world stage is he not? Go on deny it, world leaders do not represent their nations? Is that what you are saying?

So you see, America publicly saying they do not agree with Pakistan’s agenda is a love story compared to the history of Indian’s PM in the West.

Plus, disagreeing with an agenda is hardly news, happens all the time in Politics, but banning a religious terrorist is a blue moon event.

BTW USA just didn't lift the ban ... it also invited him to address the US Congress ... nothing like open acknowledgment of mistake.

You didn’t know about the ban until today, so I am guessing you Googled.

USA did lift the ban, this was the only way Congress could invite Modi. He was banned, this was a fact. He was invited in 2016, AFTER the ban was lifted in 2014 (when he became PM). This is simple math. Nothing like denying the truth even though it hurts.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...o-U.S.-Congress-lawmakers/article11631577.ece

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ra-modi-to-be-lifted-if-he-becomes-pm-report/

 

[Tusker]

Yes I will compare an individual, after all Modi is a representative of India at the world stage is he not? Go on deny it, world leaders do not represent their nations? Is that what you are saying?

So you see, America publicly saying they do not agree with Pakistan’s agenda is a love story compared to the history of Indian’s PM in the West.

Plus, disagreeing with an agenda is hardly news, happens all the time in Politics, but banning a religious terrorist is a blue moon event.



You didn’t know about the ban until today, so I am guessing you Googled.

USA did lift the ban, this was the only way Congress could invite Modi. He was banned, this was a fact. He was invited in 2016, AFTER the ban was lifted in 2014 (when he became PM). This is simple math. Nothing like denying the truth even though it hurts.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...o-U.S.-Congress-lawmakers/article11631577.ece

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ra-modi-to-be-lifted-if-he-becomes-pm-report/

Modi wasnt a representative of India back in 2005 when the ban was imposed. And who has denied that he was banned ? The problem here is you not being able to reconcile to the fact that the ban was a result of petty politics which was vindicated by the manner in which the US (And the UK) unconditionally withdrew the ban. I suppose in your mind only the ban was correct but not the withdrawal ... victim mentality much ?

So now tell us how this is even remotely comparable to the situation that Pakistan faces where it is being told off like a school kid. Toe our line or there will be a price to pay. lol

 

[R3verse Swing]

Modi wasnt a representative of India back in 2005 when the ban was imposed. And who has denied that he was banned ? The problem here is you not being able to reconcile to the fact that the ban was a result of petty politics which was vindicated by the manner in which the US (And the UK) unconditionally withdrew the ban. I suppose in your mind only the ban was correct but not the withdrawal ... victim mentality much ?

So now tell us how this is even remotely comparable to the situation that Pakistan faces where it is being told off like a school kid. Toe our line or there will be a price to pay. lol

Modi was banned because of petty politics? On which planet? He was banned because of the Gujrat incident, and if you feel this is petty then it pretty much sums up what Right-wing Hindus, and secular India thinks of Muslims and religious intolerance – petty, right? And no, he was not vindicated by the West, he was lucky to become PM, otherwise the ban would have remained.

Yes when Modi was banned he was not PM, but now he is PM, it doesn’t mean his past is erased, does it?

It gets worse, the party which he leads, BJP, is linked to the assassination of Gandhi! :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/opposition-links-bjp-to-gandhi-assassin-802lzj9v3

No matter where he runs or hides, nothing will change the fact that not only is he a representative of secular India [Irony alert], but the leader of a right-wing fascist Hindu party.

In the end however, this is of no concern to the West. The West only care about money now, like they did when the British ruled India, which is precisely my point, in the face of money, the West will forget and move on with their stealth plan of rinsing India again, and if this means bolstering India in the media, then so be it.

So make no mistake, no one in the West give two hoots about India’s culture or history, you are living in lala-land. The West only cares about the money and will earn/steal it by any means necessary - as they did in the past. Modus operandi.

 

[Traveller55]

Modi was banned because of petty politics? On which planet? He was banned because of the Gujrat incident, and if you feel this is petty then it pretty much sums up what Right-wing Hindus, and secular India thinks of Muslims and religious intolerance – petty, right? And no, he was not vindicated by the West, he was lucky to become PM, otherwise the ban would have remained.

Yes when Modi was banned he was not PM, but now he is PM, it doesn’t mean his past is erased, does it?

It gets worse, the party which he leads, BJP, is linked to the assassination of Gandhi! :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/opposition-links-bjp-to-gandhi-assassin-802lzj9v3

No matter where he runs or hides, nothing will change the fact that not only is he a representative of secular India [Irony alert], but the leader of a right-wing fascist Hindu party.

In the end however, this is of no concern to the West. The West only care about money now, like they did when the British ruled India, which is precisely my point, in the face of money, the West will forget and move on with their stealth plan of rinsing India again, and if this means bolstering India in the media, then so be it.

So make no mistake, no one in the West give two hoots about India’s culture or history, you are living in lala-land. The West only cares about the money and will earn/steal it by any means necessary - as they did in the past. Modus operandi.

The burn in this post is pretty evident. No-one cares about Indian culture in the west ? Well, yoga is just about THE most popular non-western cultural practice in the west.

And as the world moves towards more and more educated position, the subcontinent's tolerant past glory is acknowledged more and more, so India's profile is rising due to this.

As for rinsing India- there is nothing left to rinse. India is not mineral rich resource exporter that will be rinsed.
If the plan was to 'rinse', then Africa, the most mineral-rich continent on the planet currently, would be huge in media presence.

 

[Tusker]

Modi was banned because of petty politics? On which planet? He was banned because of the Gujrat incident, and if you feel this is petty then it pretty much sums up what Right-wing Hindus, and secular India thinks of Muslims and religious intolerance – petty, right? And no, he was not vindicated by the West, he was lucky to become PM, otherwise the ban would have remained.

Yes when Modi was banned he was not PM, but now he is PM, it doesn’t mean his past is erased, does it?

It gets worse, the party which he leads, BJP, is linked to the assassination of Gandhi! :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/opposition-links-bjp-to-gandhi-assassin-802lzj9v3

No matter where he runs or hides, nothing will change the fact that not only is he a representative of secular India [Irony alert], but the leader of a right-wing fascist Hindu party.

In the end however, this is of no concern to the West. The West only care about money now, like they did when the British ruled India, which is precisely my point, in the face of money, the West will forget and move on with their stealth plan of rinsing India again, and if this means bolstering India in the media, then so be it.

Modi was banned on the request of the Indian Govt which was in power at that time before he had a chance to clear his name in the courts. Why dont you tell us how the US did not care about money while banning and that it was all done on Principle whereas the reverse is not true when the ban was lifted ... lol

So make no mistake, no one in the West give two hoots about India’s culture or history, you are living in lala-land. The West only cares about the money and will earn/steal it by any means necessary - as they did in the past. Modus operandi.

Is that why Yoga is sooo popular in the USA ?


And I see that you are quietlly avoiding answering how Modi's ban is same as Pakistans current situation ?

 

[mani1]

Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day

NEW DELHI, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Seventy-seven percent of Indians -- about 836 million people -- live on less than half a dollar a day in one of the world’s hottest economies, a government report said.

The state-run National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganised Sector (NCEUS) said most of those living on below 20 rupees (50 US cents) per day were from the informal labour sector with no job or social security, living in abject poverty.

"For most of them, conditions of work are utterly deplorable and livelihood options extremely few," said the report, entitled "Conditions of Work and Promotion of Livelihoods in the Unorganised Sector", seen by Reuters on Friday.

"Such a sordid picture co-exists uneasily with a shining India that has successfully confronted the challenge of globalisation powered by economic competition both within the country and across the world."

Around 26 percent of India’s population lives below the poverty line, which is defined as 12 rupees per day, said officials.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSDEL218894

Are things so cheap in India that half a dollar a day isn't considered as poverty?

Or has India's GDP per capita improved 10 fold in a decade

Those figures suggest most Indians are living the the 4th World never mind the 3rd World.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Modi was banned on the request of the Indian Govt which was in power at that time before he had a chance to clear his name in the courts. Why dont you tell us how the US did not care about money while banning and that it was all done on Principle whereas the reverse is not true when the ban was lifted ... lol

He was banned outright in the West at the behest of UK Parliament and the US Senate/House.

Regardless, he was banned. This is the point.

Is that why Yoga is sooo popular in the USA ?

And I see that you are quietlly avoiding answering how Modi's ban is same as Pakistans current situation ?

Yoga? You think the West cares about India because of Yoga? Deary deary me. This is like saying Indians speak English - soooo popular in India - because they love the British Queen and wish to reinstate her as their ruler!

Modi's ban is not even in the same frame as Pakistan's situation. Come back to me and let me know when a Pakistani in politics is banned from entering the USA and UK on religious terrorism/extremism charges.

Compare apples with apples, and stop scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Traveller55]

Yoga? You think the West cares about India because of Yoga? Deary deary me. This is like saying Indians speak English - soooo popular in India - because they love the British Queen and wish to reinstate her as their ruler!

Modi's ban is not even in the same frame as Pakistan's situation. Come back to me and let me know when a Pakistani in politics is banned from entering the USA and UK on religious terrorism/extremism charges.

Compare apples with apples, and stop scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Classic strawman argument.
Nobody said the west wants to be ruled by India. or wants to become Indian.People have said that India enjoys a FAR BETTER REPUTATION than other subcontinental countries in the west.

And yes, in that respect, Yoga is huge - people like yoga, so people are positively predisposed to the culture that gave them something they like. That's only natural.

People out here are far friendlier to the notion of India, than they are for Pakistan and Bangladesh. The booming tourism in India is also a big driving factor.
Westerners are going to India, then learning all the negative things about Pakistan (understandable and expected- Pakistan made its bed in that sense) and all the while, realizing that there are serious travel advisories against Pakistan. So the gap of good image, keeps growing.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Acknowledging any individual killing as terrorism is a good thing. But make no mistake, killing in the name of Islam will always be called what it is - Islamic terrorism.



Its the PC-brigade being shut down by loud Islamists. The push and pull of Islamists vs liberal will continue.
And yes, Islam is to blame.
And its pretty self evident.

We don't have Christian terrorists killing in the name of Jesus. Or Hindus killing in the name of Krishna.
Or Buddhists killing in the name of Buddha. There are no other religious counterparts to Islamic terror outfits like Boko Haram, ISIS, LeT, etc.

So Islam is to blame and I am glad the media is covering it as is.



So News-media is to blame, because people care about terrorism more and they put all the Islamic terrorism stuff as front page news, but can't find Hindu terrorism or Christian terrorism. Sounds like Islam is to blame to me and you are griping that they are not hiding terrorism news in the back pages to protect Islam.



There is no smoke without fire. From Phillipines to Spain, the common thread of individual and group-sponsored terrorism is Islam. No other religion has nutjobs killing in the name of their God/Gods, no other religion has terror outfits with stated goal of bringing a religious code along via violence, not remotely to the same degree.

As I said, acceptance is the first step to recovery and the big reason Islamic world has fallen behind the civilized world (and the gap continues to grow) is because most of the Islamic world is in denial of the problem.

Why did you edit out your boast about living in the most liberal country in Europe? If you perhaps thought it was a tad shameless to toot your horn about liberalism after confessing to being a fan of Hindutva BJP govt, and posting essays showcasing your Islamophobia, then it was probably a good decision.

p.s.

I see after reading my post about Indian posters burning about the Bobbys and Bens issue, you have adopted the word for yourself. Always glad to help out my fans. Stick around and keep learning.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Why did you edit out your boast about living in the most liberal country in Europe? .

It's obvious, he exposed himself yet again. 2 days ago he was enjoy the life of dual USA/Canadian national in Canada. 48 hours later he is living in the most liberal country in Europe, or was, after the edit.

He will end up living in Southall at this rate.

 

[dhonixi]

Thread is not that how much india is good in compare to west or first world countries, So no need to bring poverty etc. Thread is about how india has better perception than pakistan in west. And no one can deny it. However biased you are. It's depend on people too. I read somewhere that Birmingham or some other place in England (don't remember exact name)is somewhat like little pakistan(dangerous) now due to expats.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day

NEW DELHI, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Seventy-seven percent of Indians -- about 836 million people -- live on less than half a dollar a day in one of the world’s hottest economies, a government report said.

The state-run National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganised Sector (NCEUS) said most of those living on below 20 rupees (50 US cents) per day were from the informal labour sector with no job or social security, living in abject poverty.

"For most of them, conditions of work are utterly deplorable and livelihood options extremely few," said the report, entitled "Conditions of Work and Promotion of Livelihoods in the Unorganised Sector", seen by Reuters on Friday.

"Such a sordid picture co-exists uneasily with a shining India that has successfully confronted the challenge of globalisation powered by economic competition both within the country and across the world."

Around 26 percent of India’s population lives below the poverty line, which is defined as 12 rupees per day, said officials.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSDEL218894

Are things so cheap in India that half a dollar a day isn't considered as poverty?

Or has India's GDP per capita improved 10 fold in a decade

Those figures suggest most Indians are living the the 4th World never mind the 3rd World.

The MPI index of 2017 reveals more people are living in destitute poverty in India compared to Pakistan. So much for a booming economy!

http://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/B47_Global_MPI_2017.pdf

Figures in %

The 2017 global Multidimensional Poverty Index (MPI) provides a headline estimation of poverty and its composition for 103 countries across the world. The global MPI measures the nature and intensity of poverty, based on the profile of overlapping deprivations each poor person experiences. It aggregates these into meaningful indexes that can be used to inform targeting and resource allocation and to design policies that tackle the interlinked dimensions of poverty together.

This is the sort of news the media will shelve in the back pages of the papers for the sake of perception. Anything to help uphold the false perception of India.

 

[dhonixi]

Poverty is bad but it doesn't create bad impression. Bad impression is create when there are so many renowned terrorist living in your country in flowerbeds and supported by govt/army.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Thread is not that how much india is good in compare to west or first world countries, So no need to bring poverty etc. Thread is about how india has better perception than pakistan in west. And no one can deny it. However biased you are. It's depend on people too. I read somewhere that Birmingham or some other place in England (don't remember exact name)is somewhat like little pakistan(dangerous) now due to expats.

Wrong. The fact the media hides the real issues with India has everything to do with maintaining a false perception for the sake of money. 100% relevant to this thread.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Poverty is bad but it doesn't create bad impression. Bad impression is create when there are so many renowned terrorist living in your country in flowerbeds and supported by govt/army.

You mean Dawood Ibrahim? The Indian Terrorist?

 

[dhonixi]

[MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION] wrong, what is west going to do how much poor india is. They don't care about however you live. They care when they have problem due to your country. When there is problem to their existence. Poverty has nothibg to do with it.

 

[Traveller55]

Why did you edit out your boast about living in the most liberal country in Europe? If you perhaps thought it was a tad shameless to toot your horn about liberalism after confessing to being a fan of Hindutva BJP govt, and posting essays showcasing your Islamophobia, then it was probably a good decision.

Whats shameless, is the shocking amount of ignorance of basic English vocabulary. In no English grammar, does the word ' don't have a problem' equate to being a fan.

Also, I didn't edit out the most liberal country in Europe, I said the most liberal part of the western world. Which is the North American west coast, particularly the Oregon-Washington-BC belt.

I will start having a problem with the BJP, once they actually DO something offensive- not just make statements to the media.

 

[dhonixi]

I hope you know that who is son in law of dawood. And where he is living now. You can make us fool by refusing it that dawood is not living in pakistan but everybody and their dogs know about it. That's how perception is created. He is in UN most wanted list [MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION]

 

[R3verse Swing]

Untouchables: Anish Kapoor backs Dalits discriminated against by British Hindus

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...riminated-against-by-british-hindus-c92nsxx0l

Poor old Britain. The problems of foreigners inevitably become our problem. As if we haven't got enough problems of our own to deal with.

India is exporting it's caste system across the globe. Another Jenga brick in India's perception in the West, sadly not front page news.

 

[R3verse Swing]

[MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION] wrong, what is west going to do how much poor india is. They don't care about however you live. They care when they have problem due to your country. When there is problem to their existence. Poverty has nothibg to do with it.

As I have said, the West doesn't care about India. Doesn't care about poverty in India, caste/religious based discrimination in India. Education in India. Women/Children's rights well being in India.

All the West cares about is money, which is why news related to the reality in India is put on the back burner. Why? News portraying India in negative light would mean less chance of trade, diplomatic uncertainty, ergo, less money.

 

[R3verse Swing]

I hope you know that who is son in law of dawood. And where he is living now. You can make us fool by refusing it that dawood is not living in pakistan but everybody and their dogs know about it. That's how perception is created. He is in UN most wanted list [MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION]

The point is he is an INDIAN terrorist.

 

[Traveller55]

As I have said, the West doesn't care about India. Doesn't care about poverty in India, caste/religious based discrimination in India. Education in India. Women/Children's rights well being in India.

All the West cares about is money, which is why news related to the reality in India is put on the back burner. Why? News portraying India in negative light would mean less chance of trade, diplomatic uncertainty, ergo, less money.

If it was all about money, then west would have a great impression of Arabia,since they do a lot more $$$ business with Arabia than India.

You can run from the facts as much as you wish, but the main reason India wins vs Pakistan is because Pakistan is a known terrorism exporter and Islamic oppressive nation, while India is far better than that and the results are showing.

 

[Tusker]

He was banned outright in the West at the behest of UK Parliament and the US Senate/House.

Regardless, he was banned. This is the point.

And money was not a consideration when the ban was imposed ... right ? But the moment it was reversed it was because of money. Is that your reasoning ? Straight answer.

Yoga? You think the West cares about India because of Yoga? Deary deary me. This is like saying Indians speak English - soooo popular in India - because they love the British Queen and wish to reinstate her as their ruler!

there is a big difference ... English was imposed on Indians and the reason it is popular now is because it is the defacto world language and mainly due to colonization by the Brits. If France or Spain were as successful in colonizing the world then today one of those languages would be considered as popular world languages . But Yoga is popular without any such hard selling or conquest. It sells itself due to its benefits.

Comeback here when Pakistani culture produces anything remotely close to Yoga, Buddhism, Jainism that people across the world accept and acknowledge for its spiritual , holistic values that are timeless and peerless and have a track record that is quite literally mind boggling.

Modi's ban is not even in the same frame as Pakistan's situation. Come back to me and let me know when a Pakistani in politics is banned from entering the USA and UK on religious terrorism/extremism charges.

Compare apples with apples, and stop scraping the bottom of the barrel.

So going by this you are agreeing that Gujarat = Pakistan ? You see at best Modi was a representative of Gujarat. ( Even if I were to pretend that the ban was never overturned )

Do you realize that the Nation of Pakistan being humiliated is bigger issue than an Individual being targeted ?

So the only one who needs to comeback here is you with a equivalent scenario wherein the Indian Govt was put on notice by the US for working with Terrorists.

 

[Tusker]

The point is he is an INDIAN terrorist.

Well why is your country protecting a Terrorist who is wanted by the Interpol ? And then people wonder why Pakistan has a bad rep.

https://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/1993-14193

 

[R3verse Swing]

And money was not a consideration when the ban was imposed ... right ? But the moment it was reversed it was because of money. Is that your reasoning ? Straight answer.

DUH! As I have explained, Money WAS the consideration when they LIFTED the ban. not the other way round.

Take deep breathes, and read slowly!

there is a big difference ... English was imposed on Indians and the reason it is popular now is because it is the defacto world language and mainly due to colonization by the Brits. If France or Spain were as successful in colonizing the world then today one of those languages would be considered as popular world languages . But Yoga is popular without any such hard selling or conquest. It sells itself due to its benefits.

Nope you claimed the West cares about India because Yoga is popular, I use the same logic and postulated that India cares about the British Queen because speaking English is popular in India.

So going by this you are agreeing that Gujarat = Pakistan ? You see at best Modi was a representative of Gujarat. ( Even if I were to pretend that the ban was never overturned )

Gujrat = Pakistan? You what? No wait, do you means in terms of Muslims? Ha!

Do you realize that the Nation of Pakistan being humiliated is bigger issue than an Individual being targeted ?

So the only one who needs to comeback here is you with a equivalent scenario wherein the Indian Govt was put on notice by the US for working with Terrorists.

In other words, no Pakistani politician has been banned from entering the USA/UK on the grounds of Religious Extremism/Terrorism charges.

This is the irony. You think Pakistan exports terrorism, India’s leader is a religious terrorist and his historical ban in the USA/UK proves it.

Money is the root of all evil after all!

 

[R3verse Swing]

Well why is your country protecting a Terrorist who is wanted by the Interpol ? And then people wonder why Pakistan has a bad rep.

https://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/1993-14193

Not just any terrorist, but an INDIAN terrorist wanted by interpol.

Now the question is why do the authorities not come in all guns blazing. They know where he is located!?

As for why is he in Pakistan, perhaps he feels he will be persecuted on the grounds of his religion in India?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Thread is not that how much india is good in compare to west or first world countries, So no need to bring poverty etc. Thread is about how india has better perception than pakistan in west. And no one can deny it. However biased you are. It's depend on people too. I read somewhere that Birmingham or some other place in England (don't remember exact name)is somewhat like little pakistan(dangerous) now due to expats.

It depends how much importance you put on approval from the west. Getting pats on the back like a butler from a wealthy plantation owner clearly matters more to Indians than it does to Pakistanis, so I suppose you are right.

 

[dhonixi]

[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] Dear Sir, if you forgot to remember that this thread is started by a Pakistani, so let me remind you that it is your brethen who want pat on the back by western buttler since they feel ditched by them.

 

[Tusker]

Not just any terrorist, but an INDIAN terrorist wanted by interpol.

Now the question is why do the authorities not come in all guns blazing. They know where he is located!?

As for why is he in Pakistan, perhaps he feels he will be persecuted on the grounds of his religion in India?

So you dont see the difference between India actively looking to arrest a Terrorist vs Pakistan openly providing a safe haven to the same person ?

BTW he is being wanted by Interpol which is not an Indian Agency. Therefore he will be Tried in international courts. If they feel India cannot be relied upon for due process and protect his Civil rights they will make that decision not you or me.

But do enlighten us why the great Nation of Pakistan provides him shelter.

 

[R3verse Swing]

This should be front page news in the West, but it is not.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/opposition-links-bjp-to-gandhi-assassin-802lzj9v3

2nd Feb 2018

---------------------

A fallen icon, conspiracy theories of an unknown killer and fingers pointed at the government, India marked the 70th anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination with prayers and recriminations in equal measure this week.

The murder of the father of the nation by a right-wing fanatic on January 30, 1948, just months after India achieved the independence he fought for, is a stain on the country’s history. Though Gandhi remains a national icon, it is the ideology of his killer that, in the eyes of opposition activists, is gaining ground in India’s corridors of power.

Narendra Modi, the prime minister, paid his respects on Tuesday at an event at Gandhi Smriti, the house in Delhi where Gandhi spent his final days and where he was shot.

“The ideals which Bapu [Gandhi] practised in his life, things that he imparted are relevant even today,” Mr Modi said. “What can be a bigger tribute than taking a vow that we shall tread the path of Bapu, and walk as far as possible?”

A short distance away, however, opposition officials and supporters were gathered for a seminar denouncing the aggressive Hindu nationalism of the Modi government. Far from living by Bapu’s ideals, speakers accused the prime minister of allowing hatred to flourish, drawing a line between Nathuram Godse, Gandhi’s assassin, and the Hindu nationalism of Mr Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party today.
“It’s an extremely illiberal ethos we have been thrown in, of violence and threats,” said Ashok Vajpeyi, a poet and former civil servant.

The Hindu right has long had a conflicted relationship with the assassination. Godse was a former member of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) the nationalist militia that was the parent organisation of the BJP. Many on the right are deeply uncomfortable with the link to the killer, who was hanged in 1949. Claims that senior RSS officials were aware of, or even involved in, the plot to kill Gandhi resurface frequently, prompting a counter strategy to distance the group from the murder.

Claims that a fourth bullet from an unknown assailant, separate to the three fired at point-blank range by Godse in front of hundreds of witnesses, was really the fatal shot that killed Gandhi have been encouraged by right-wing groups for years. A member of the nationalist organisation Abhinav Bharat successfully brought a petition before India’s Supreme Court in October demanding that the case be reopened, denouncing the murder investigation as “the biggest cover-up in history”.

Lawyers dutifully ploughed through the 4,000 documents submitted at Godse’s trial, concluding in January that the fourth bullet theory was nonsense. That decision is unlikely to quell the rumours, however. Tushar Gandhi, great-grandson of the Mahatma, has denounced efforts to reopen the case as an “orchestrated campaign of lies.

“They think they have the ability and power to rewrite history and so they are attempting to replace the truth by something that suits them better,” Mr Gandhi wrote in October.

More alarming, in the eyes of the opposition, are hardliners who embrace Godse as a hero. The nationalist surge unleashed by Mr Modi’s landslide election victory in 2014 has brought a rise in public reverence for Gandhi’s assassin. Activists attached a plaque to a new bridge in the northern state of Rajasthan in 2015, naming it after the killer. One Hindu group unveiled a bust of Godse at its headquarters in November, before it was hastily removed by police. Another, the Hindu Maha Sabha, has called for statues to be raised in Godse’s honour and urged the Modi government to declare January 30 a “day of courage”.

Mr Modi has been criticised for following hardliners on Twitter who declare: “Godse is god”. Equivocal remarks by senior BJP officials have underscored claims by opponents that Hindu extremists have been emboldened by tacit approval from the highest echelons of government. In a 2015 tweet, the head of the BJP’s aggressive online operation, Amit Malviya, commented: “Nathuram Godse had his reasons to assassinate MK Gandhi. A fair society must hear him out too.”

The RSS was temporarily banned after Godse’s execution but today it counts the prime minister and much of the cabinet among its alumni and wields huge influence over the government. The group’s vision of a pure Hindu nation threatens to swamp India’s traditional secularism, while hate crimes against minorities are on the rise.

“Our spiritual leaders do not defend freedom. They don’t defend justice. They don’t defend the weak or the poor,” Mr Vajpeyi lamented. “It’s a travesty.”

--------------

But no, alleged terrorists from Pakistan are more of a concern rather than the Indian PM, and the ideology by which he governs India, which endorses religious extremism/terrorism in India.

Media is everything when it comes to public perception.

 

[R3verse Swing]

So you dont see the difference between India actively looking to arrest a Terrorist vs Pakistan openly providing a safe haven to the same person ?

If India is actively looking to arrest, then why not make a case with Pakistan to hand him over?

BTW he is being wanted by Interpol which is not an Indian Agency. Therefore he will be Tried in international courts. If they feel India cannot be relied upon for due process and protect his Civil rights they will make that decision not you or me.

Duh! Of course, which is why you cited the most wanted by Interpol and not an Indian agency. Though in your response above you claim India is actively looking to arrest a terrorist. So which is it pal?

But do enlighten us why the great Nation of Pakistan provides him shelter.

As I already mentioned, perhaps he is afraid he will be discriminated in India on the grounds of his religion? Which part did you not understand? Personally, I think DA has nothing to worry about, he will feel right at home given the right-wing extremist/terrorist ideology that is governing India.

 

[Tusker]

DUH! As I have explained, Money WAS the consideration when they LIFTED the ban. not the other way round.

Take deep breathes, and read slowly!

And this makes sense how ? Perhaps I need to get educated in the fine art of Logic of the Lahore kind.

Nope you claimed the West cares about India because Yoga is popular, I use the same logic and postulated that India cares about the British Queen because speaking English is popular in India.

Again flawed logic. Yoga didn't spread thru conquests. It spreads on its own due to its spiritual value proposition. If the West was only interested in India for $$$ ( which is your claim) then Yoga wouldn't be as widely accepted and more importantly the clean image that it has.

Gujrat = Pakistan? You what? No wait, do you means in terms of Muslims? Ha!

Per your own logic wherein you equate Modi who was only a CM of Gujrat to Pakistans current situation.

In other words, no Pakistani politician has been banned from entering the USA/UK on the grounds of Religious Extremism/Terrorism charges.

This is the irony. You think Pakistan exports terrorism, India’s leader is a religious terrorist and his historical ban in the USA/UK proves it.

Money is the root of all evil after all!

In even bigger words Pakistan has been humiliated like literally how tinpot nations in African countries are dealt with.

Modi on the other hand made the US & UK bend . Both countries came to their senses on their own about the mistake without Modi having to take them on. Thats ultimate power. Power of truth. Thats why the respect.

 

[Tusker]

If India is actively looking to arrest, then why not make a case with Pakistan to hand him over?

Duh! Of course, which is why you cited the most wanted by Interpol and not an Indian agency. Though in your response above you claim India is actively looking to arrest a terrorist. So which is it pal?

India has formally asked Pakistan. When no real progress was achieved the case was handed over to the Interpol. Now do tell us why Pakistan brazenly ignores interpol requests and how that is such a honorable thing to do.

And don't get agitated.

As I already mentioned, perhaps he is afraid he will be discriminated in India on the grounds of his religion? Which part did you not understand? Personally, I think DA has nothing to worry about, he will feel right at home given the right-wing extremist/terrorist ideology that is governing India.

And i already answered this in my previous post. Unless you want to argue that you are concerned that the Interpol wont protect your beloved citizen ... lol

 

[R3verse Swing]

And this makes sense how ? Perhaps I need to get educated in the fine art of Logic of the Lahore kind.

How? In 2004 India was a laughing stock. Modi was banned later. Economy increased in India. 2008 Western economy crashed. West need money. 2014 Modi is PM. Ban lifted.

Yes you do need to get educated, given the rates of illiteracy in India, I am surprised you have even made this comment.

Again flawed logic. Yoga didn't spread thru conquests. It spreads on its own due to its spiritual value proposition. If the West was only interested in India for $$$ ( which is your claim) then Yoga wouldn't be as widely accepted and more importantly the clean image that it has.

British Rule still hurts does it?

Your point on conquest is completely irrelevant. Yoga is not a sign of West caring about India as you pathetically claim, no more is speaking in English a sign of caring about the British Queen. Do you see now? Do you see the fallacy in your logic? You are dreaming if you are thinking the West cares about India because Yoga is sooooo popular in the West. If this logic is true, then India cares about the Queen because Indians speak English.

As for spiritual value, the fact you are speaking in English right now confirms which has more value.

Per your own logic wherein you equate Modi who was only a CM of Gujrat to Pakistans current situation.

My logic? You are the one who asked, here let me quote your ENGLISH words:

So going by this you are agreeing that Gujarat = Pakistan ?

Where did I agree?

In even bigger words Pakistan has been humiliated like literally how tinpot nations in African countries are dealt with.

Modi on the other hand made the US & UK bend . Both countries came to their senses on their own about the mistake without Modi having to take them on. Thats ultimate power. Power of truth. Thats why the respect.

Again you are dreaming. USA and UK only care about Money, not India.

Modi did not make UK bend, it was Modi who was begging Theresa May to relax laws on India immigration to the UK. (Info can be found a few pages earlier in this thread).

Look, no need to be upset since found out your religious extremist terrorist was banned. We get it, you support his cause and your complete disregard for Muslims is clear. Save the *I have Muslims* friend line too.

 

[R3verse Swing]

India has formally asked Pakistan. When no real progress was achieved the case was handed over to the Interpol. Now do tell us why Pakistan brazenly ignores interpol requests and how that is such a honorable thing to do.

What crock. A few posts above you said he was not wanted by Indian authorities.

And don't get agitated.

Oh I am relaxed and enjoying your expose.

And i already answered this in my previous post. Unless you want to argue that you are concerned that the Interpol wont protect your beloved citizen ... lol

DA is not a Pakistani citizen, he is an INDIAN citizen. Wait, don't tell me he has been stripped of his Indian citizenship? Wouldn't be the first!

Stop propagating fake news for the sake of upholding a fake perception of India.

 

[Tusker]

What crock. A few posts above you said he was not wanted by Indian authorities.

Do you even understand how Interpol works ? If not stay away from this discussion.

Oh I am relaxed and enjoying your expose.

Is that why you are resorting to churlish words like Pal, Duh! etc ?

DA is not a Pakistani citizen, he is an INDIAN citizen. Wait, don't tell me he has been stripped of his Indian citizenship? Wouldn't be the first!

Stop propagating fake news for the sake of upholding a fake perception of India.

So how is staying in Pakistan for decades ?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Do you even understand how Interpol works ? If not stay away from this discussion.

Not the point, you said Indian authorities were not after DA, then in the next breath claim Indian authorities requested Pakistan to hand over DA.

It’s you who needs to go away from this discussion, get his story straight [cos it's full of gaping holes], and come back with a solid argument with any luck.

Is that why you are resorting to churlish words like Pal, Duh! etc ?

Pal and Duh are neither rude nor mean words. Please kerb the insecurity here. Pal is the same as saying friend. Duh is a euphemism for “Oh my days!”. In the UK anyway!

So how is staying in Pakistan for decades ?

Evidence please.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So you are comparing an individual (who at that time was nowhere close to being a PM) who was singled out due to shady politics and one-upmanship to the state of Pakistan the nation ?

BTW USA just didn't lift the ban ... it also invited him to address the US Congress ... nothing like open acknowledgment of mistake.

Where Modi gave a speech to thundering applause, slammed Pakistan and the then US President wrote a article in Time praising Modi. Some Salty guy will be stuck in 2005.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Where Modi gave a speech to thundering applause, slammed Pakistan and the then US President wrote a article in Time praising Modi. Some Salty guy will be stuck in 2005.

Indians need to get rid of this subservient nature inside them . You are a huge county and don’t need the blessing of the Americans to make you feel important. No wonder the British easily took over India .

 

[cricketjoshila]

Do you even understand how Interpol works ? If not stay away from this discussion.




Is that why you are resorting to churlish words like Pal, Duh! etc ?




So how is staying in Pakistan for decades ?

Bhai when you debate with habitual liars you must check facts.


"

British officials in Delhi explained that a recent court decision that there was insufficient evidence to charge Modi for the violence of 2002, in which three British nationals died, had influenced the timing of the decision"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/22/uk-ends-boycott-narendra-modi

This is why Modi's boycott was withdrawn in 2012 october. Long before he became PM.

Some people think every country is up for sale for money.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Who was it who claimed Bangladesh's GDP per capita was higher than Pakistan's?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Bangladesh below Pakistan - 2017.

Next table update in 1st July 2018.

The gall and desperation. You have to admire it.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Indians need to get rid of this subservient nature inside them . You are a huge county and don’t need the blessing of the Americans to make you feel important. No wonder the British easily took over India .

So true. Hearing about Modi's visit to UK after his ban was lifted is just cringworthy. The classic was "Modi was invited to 10 downing Street, and he was greeted by the PM and reporters". No kidding, every leader is invited to 10 Downing Street!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] Dear Sir, if you forgot to remember that this thread is started by a Pakistani, so let me remind you that it is your brethen who want pat on the back by western buttler since they feel ditched by them.

Don't want to say anything too controversial but someone already mentioned the term false flag with regard to the OP. But regardless, that was one post, I am talking about the tone of the replies from your countrymen which have followed in a thread which has over 400 replies. At least stick to your position instead of flipping like a hooked fish when I throw you a line.

 

[James]

Agreed, so if you won't accept my native Brit views, tainted as they are by my Pakistani ancestry ( oh the shame I feel on your cruel reminder!)

Then let us put the question to pure blue blood Brits whose ancestors have roamed these lands since the days of Cheddar man and his unfittingly dark skin.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION], what are your thoughts on Kingsley and Mercury as Indian representatives?

Kingsley is generally considered to be impeccably British, one of the finest living actors from these shores along with his fellow Sirs Michael Caine and Anthony Hopkins.

More people are aware of Mercury’s foreign ethnicity than with Kingsley, but Mercury is still universally agreed upon as an all-time great of British music. He is the lead singer of Queen first, a pop culture household name second, a solo artist third, a gay icon fourth, etc.... his Indian heritage comes way down the list to be honest.

Britishness is nothing to do with your racial background or your “caste” - maybe this what some people on the forum do not understand - instead being from Britain is all about your grounding in British ideals and values. If you enjoy a general sense of fair play, good manners, the bulldog spirit, community and celebration, you’re in!

 

[Snak3eye5]

Indians need to get rid of this subservient nature inside them . You are a huge county and don’t need the blessing of the Americans to make you feel important. No wonder the British easily took over India .

Unlike a certain country who is bending over backwards for the Us and now a stooge of China, if India wanted American blessing they would be begging the Us for aid and would be happily fighting their wars in Afghanistan and anywhere else at the drop of a hat. oh wait ....they don’t

 

[R3verse Swing]

Bhai when you debate with habitual liars you must check facts.


"

British officials in Delhi explained that a recent court decision that there was insufficient evidence to charge Modi for the violence of 2002, in which three British nationals died, had influenced the timing of the decision"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/22/uk-ends-boycott-narendra-modi

This is why Modi's boycott was withdrawn in 2012 october. Long before he became PM.

Some people think every country is up for sale for money.

Why do you lie so much?

My comment was with respect to his ban in the USA. Here is what I posted

Post 421

USA did lift the ban, this was the only way Congress could invite Modi. He was banned, this was a fact. He was invited in 2016, AFTER the ban was lifted in 2014 (when he became PM). This is simple math. Nothing like denying the truth even though it hurts.

Your feeble attempt is not even relevant, as expected. Do you even read before you embarrass yourself?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Kingsley is generally considered to be impeccably British, one of the finest living actors from these shores along with his fellow Sirs Michael Caine and Anthony Hopkins.

More people are aware of Mercury’s foreign ethnicity than with Kingsley, but Mercury is still universally agreed upon as an all-time great of British music. He is the lead singer of Queen first, a pop culture household name second, a solo artist third, a gay icon fourth, etc.... his Indian heritage comes way down the list to be honest.

Britishness is nothing to do with your racial background or your “caste” - maybe this what some people on the forum do not understand - instead being from Britain is all about your grounding in British ideals and values. If you enjoy a general sense of fair play, good manners, the bulldog spirit, community and celebration, you’re in!

You've just destroyed the hearts of over a Billion people in 3 swift paragraphs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Kingsley is generally considered to be impeccably British, one of the finest living actors from these shores along with his fellow Sirs Michael Caine and Anthony Hopkins.

More people are aware of Mercury’s foreign ethnicity than with Kingsley, but Mercury is still universally agreed upon as an all-time great of British music. He is the lead singer of Queen first, a pop culture household name second, a solo artist third, a gay icon fourth, etc.... his Indian heritage comes way down the list to be honest.

Britishness is nothing to do with your racial background or your “caste” - maybe this what some people on the forum do not understand - instead being from Britain is all about your grounding in British ideals and values. If you enjoy a general sense of fair play, good manners, the bulldog spirit, community and celebration, you’re in!

I think the vast majority of Brits are probably unaware of Mercury's Indian heritage, it barely got a mention when he was alive. I know I was surprised to find out when I heard about it. And why should it? It wasn't really what he was about, even his band was called Queen, and the music they played was quintessentially British. So pipe down Indians and go listen to some Ravi Shankar dirge.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Unlike a certain country who is bending over backwards for the Us and now a stooge of China, if India wanted American blessing they would be begging the Us for aid and would be happily fighting their wars in Afghanistan and anywhere else at the drop of a hat. oh wait ....they don’t

Well India will be training Afghanistan in Indian cricket grounds now. That's after Indians training the Afghan police : http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-to-train-afghan-police/article19737384.ece

Problem shared problem halved and all that?

 

[Tusker]

How? In 2004 India was a laughing stock. Modi was banned later. Economy increased in India. 2008 Western economy crashed. West need money. 2014 Modi is PM. Ban lifted.

Yes you do need to get educated, given the rates of illiteracy in India, I am surprised you have even made this comment.

Going by your hilarious High School logic (where everything is a conspiracy if you dont agree with the outcome but Everything is perfectly legal and divine if it suits your opinions ) then yes.

But if you want to go by real world standards then it becomes complicated for you. Because you firstly have to undo your logic that you learnt in Lahore.

So got any real proof that Modi was exonorated for money and that they werent interested in money ? If not then I can quite easily type the opposite of what you type. Your word against mine.

But in the real world - Modi's ban was reveresed unconditionally by the UK even before he became the PM after they realized the mistake. Too bad that it blows a big hole in your theory and upsets you. Deal with it.

British Rule still hurts does it?

Your point on conquest is completely irrelevant. Yoga is not a sign of West caring about India as you pathetically claim, no more is speaking in English a sign of caring about the British Queen. Do you see now? Do you see the fallacy in your logic? You are dreaming if you are thinking the West cares about India because Yoga is sooooo popular in the West. If this logic is true, then India cares about the Queen because Indians speak English.

As for spiritual value, the fact you are speaking in English right now confirms which has more value.

Everything you say is irrelevnt. Why ? Because I said so. You think only you can come up with obtuse deadbeat arguments lol ?


The Brits ruled Pakistan too and fubared it even more ... perhaps they dont teach that in Lahore.

My logic? You are the one who asked, here let me quote your ENGLISH words:


Where did I agree?

read the entire context ... cant be bothered to rehash and retype.

Again you are dreaming. USA and UK only care about Money, not India.

Modi did not make UK bend, it was Modi who was begging Theresa May to relax laws on India immigration to the UK. (Info can be found a few pages earlier in this thread).

Look, no need to be upset since found out your religious extremist terrorist was banned. We get it, you support his cause and your complete disregard for Muslims is clear. Save the *I have Muslims* friend line too.

Upset ? lol you worry about the ENTIRE world looking at your country as the staunch supporter of Osama - the deadliest Islamic terrorist there ever was. Must be difficult to cope with that but hey you can always claim to be Indian you know to get rid of the awkward situation

 

[Tusker]

Bhai when you debate with habitual liars you must check facts.


"

British officials in Delhi explained that a recent court decision that there was insufficient evidence to charge Modi for the violence of 2002, in which three British nationals died, had influenced the timing of the decision"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/22/uk-ends-boycott-narendra-modi

This is why Modi's boycott was withdrawn in 2012 october. Long before he became PM.

Some people think every country is up for sale for money.

its just a coping mechanism. Its easier for such people to find refuge in Victim mentality. Very easy to do. And since the civilized world chooses not to respond to such idiotic rants by internet warriors these people actually take that as "Proof" of their stupid claims. Vicious circle.

 

[Tusker]

Modi was banned because of petty politics? On which planet? He was banned because of the Gujrat incident, and if you feel this is petty then it pretty much sums up what Right-wing Hindus, and secular India thinks of Muslims and religious intolerance – petty, right? And no, he was not vindicated by the West, he was lucky to become PM, otherwise the ban would have remained.

Why dont you show us some evidence to that effect where he was convicted for the Gujrat Incident that you are taking about ? Should be very easy.

Prediction for how you will respond since there is no court verdict to that effect: Conspiracy theories.

It gets even better - You cant even blame the BJP govt because they werent in power. Hint: Modi Paid off Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi ?

 

[Snak3eye5]

Going by your hilarious High School logic (where everything is a conspiracy if you dont agree with the outcome but Everything is perfectly legal and divine if it suits your opinions ) then yes.

But if you want to go by real world standards then it becomes complicated for you. Because you firstly have to undo your logic that you learnt in Lahore.

So got any real proof that Modi was exonorated for money and that they werent interested in money ? If not then I can quite easily type the opposite of what you type. Your word against mine.

But in the real world - Modi's ban was reveresed unconditionally by the UK even before he became the PM after they realized the mistake. Too bad that it blows a big hole in your theory and upsets you. Deal with it.




Everything you say is irrelevnt. Why ? Because I said so. You think only you can come up with obtuse deadbeat arguments lol ?


The Brits ruled Pakistan too and fubared it even more ... perhaps they dont teach that in Lahore.





read the entire context ... cant be bothered to rehash and retype.




Upset ? lol you worry about the ENTIRE world looking at your country as the staunch supporter of Osama - the deadliest Islamic terrorist there ever was. Must be difficult to cope with that but hey you can always claim to be Indian you know to get rid of the awkward situation

From what I have heard and someone can correct me if I’m wrong, Pakistanis in US, Uk and Canada call themselves Indians in public especially when they get questioned by westerners on where they’re originally from and later behind closed doors would do the usual India bashing non-stop. I wouldn’t blame them but It’s just sad.

 

[Tusker]

Not the point, you said Indian authorities were not after DA, then in the next breath claim Indian authorities requested Pakistan to hand over DA.

It’s you who needs to go away from this discussion, get his story straight [cos it's full of gaping holes], and come back with a solid argument with any luck.

I never said Indian authorities were *NOT* After him. That is entirely your imagination. This is why it helps to read the posts and most importantly understand whats said in the context of the discussion. Start by reading the interpol link I posted. It clearly states in there that he is wanted by Indian Authorities. However it doesn't mean the Interpol will hand him over to India if they dont trust India to provide justice. If that was the case they wouldnt even issue a Red Notice to begin with. But all this requires understanding of how Iterpol Works and it is clear that you know absolutely nothing about it going by your posts. Hence its better you stay out of this as this is beyond your capabilities.

Pal and Duh are neither rude nor mean words. Please kerb the insecurity here. Pal is the same as saying friend. Duh is a euphemism for “Oh my days!”. In the UK anyway!

Iam neither your friend nor do I even know you in passing. Stay away from the churlish and peurile comments if you want this to continue.

Evidence please.

See your own Posts above starting from Post #437 and 448 lol ... but Feel free to start your usual deadbeat round of victim mentality driven rants pretending that he never set foot in Pakistan.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

From what I have heard and someone can correct me if I’m wrong, Pakistanis in US, Uk and Canada call themselves Indians in public especially when they get questioned by westerners on where they’re originally from and later behind closed doors would do the usual India bashing non-stop. I wouldn’t blame them but It’s just sad.

That might happen and is certainly possible but i dont know any pakistanis who do that personally. I've persoanlly lived in Australia for a while and have never done that.

 

[Saeed]

From what I have heard and someone can correct me if I’m wrong, Pakistanis in US, Uk and Canada call themselves Indians in public especially when they get questioned by westerners on where they’re originally from and later behind closed doors would do the usual India bashing non-stop. I wouldn’t blame them but It’s just sad.

Ikr. I once did that once when an old customer came to the place where I work. I lost his credit card some how so he told me I should go back to Iraq. I told him Sir I am actually from India. He was like you don’t sound Indian so I told him my parents are from India. I didn’t get the manager for him either so he was shouting the whole time. I bet he hates us Indians now.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

Britishness is nothing to do with your racial background or your “caste” - maybe this what some people on the forum do not understand - instead being from Britain is all about your grounding in British ideals and values. If you enjoy a general sense of fair play, good manners, the bulldog spirit, community and celebration, you’re in!

Very good point. I'm curious as to whether other Brits think the same way as you.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Very good point. I'm curious as to whether other Brits think the same way as you.

It should not be lost that it takes a native white british citizen to make a statement about britishness and it shows who is the real guardian of British values.