Romali_rotti
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What exactly is your argument here, as in related to this thread ?.
Joe Root is not equal to SRT, there is nothing absurd about it...SRT is wayyy above Root.
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Will Joe Root beat Sachin Tendulkar's record in Tests for most runs?
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What exactly is your argument here, as in related to this thread ?.
Joe Root is not equal to SRT, there is nothing absurd about it...SRT is wayyy above Root.
mominsaigol
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My argument is exactly what I stated. Accept it, deal with it and go back to school and grow up
Romali_rotti
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So you are saying Joe Root is equal to SRT.
mominsaigol
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I'm saying you don't know how to read
.I listed Sanga, Steve smith and lara in contention with Tendulkar.
Bradman is >>>>>>>>>>> Tendulkar.
As for root. Root is below atm for root to catch up or surpass tenda he needs to improve in certain countries however since his career is headed in an upward trajectory and he has plenty of time, he might be able to boost it up.
jnaveen1980
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Given that Root is a single format player and not considered for T20 leagues he will have enough rest between Tests. He won't take paternity leave for weeks like Kohli does.He just has to maintain his form. Otherwise he has plenty of Tests to surpass Sachin. But given his age he might try to expand his T20 game and play leagues to make some quick bucks in the wee end of his career while sacrificing Test career. He just doesn't have that power game to do well in T20.
sweep_shot
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Same argument can be made for Bumrah too who skips a lot of international series.
It makes me laugh how desperate Indians act sometimes to discredit Root.
Romali_rotti
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I'm saying you don't know how to read
I listed Sanga, Steve smith and lara in contention with Tendulkar.
Bradman is >>>>>>>>>>> Tendulkar.
As for root. Root is below atm for root to catch up or surpass tenda he needs to improve in certain countries however since his career is headed in an upward trajectory and he has plenty of time, he might be able to boost it up.
Nice wiggle around the question with answers not related till the last para.
Yes it is only a matter of Root scoring 7 x 100s in aus along with over 3400 runs away from being considered better than SRT.
Trajectory is on the up with a few more flat phattas like the ones Pakistan served up and some of those flat wickets in Eng should help him best the run tally but those 7 x 100s in Aus looks a struggle.....
mominsaigol
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Sachin has a crap record on flat track pitches in pakistan though? He's also shockingly poor against Zimbabwe despite playing 7 innings against them.
Root's record is similar to Sachin in every country with the exception of aus where he's at 35.
As for runs, it isn't a metric, it's cause Sachin played 200 tests but that's due to his debut at 16. In this day and age making a debut at 16 is impossible.
Lots of players would have surpasses Sachin in run tally, Centuries amd what not if they played 200 tests.
It's just that sachin's poorest record is in pakistan where he avg 40, Root is similar to Sachin in all countries except aus.
For Root to reach Sachin status he needs to avg 40 in aus and bring it up
So yes they are not that far off, their neck and neck in all metrics except for that fact that Sachin's weakest record is > Root's weakest record atm.
sweep_shot
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This is true.
I think Sanga could've had 20,000 Test runs if he played 200 Tests like Sachin.
Technics 1210
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Skipping series is one thing, however Tendulkar tried to skip an entire opponent (Pakistan), and still ended up bang average.
mominsaigol
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Here's the deal,
Sachin > Root atm. No denying it. But it's not too far off.
If root surpasses Sachin in run tally and manages to get a 40 avg in Aus, then it's sage to say he'll be > or at the very least equal to Sachin in test cricket.
For now Sachin is ahead
Sachin > Root atm. No denying it. But it's not too far off.
If root surpasses Sachin in run tally and manages to get a 40 avg in Aus, then it's sage to say he'll be > or at the very least equal to Sachin in test cricket.
For now Sachin is ahead
Technics 1210
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Yup, and this point illustrates why Tendulkar is nothing special, far from it.
Any batsman playing 200 tests will easily be in contention of breaking the record!
jnaveen1980
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There is a misnomer Sachin started becoming part of ATG XI after he reached 15000 runs. Actually Bradman included him in ATG XI , 8 years into Tendulkar's career where he had played just 50 over Tests. Most EX players accepted that. He transcended beyond filter, stats. So was Lara. Their dominating game, aura. Infact Sachin became an instant hit 2 years into his career. Never looked back. It is beyond perplexing to see this so called "new perspective" using cricinfo filter. Both were rated for their batsmanship. These "Runs on full moon", "Runs in 45 degree temperature" filters are used by fans just to diss players. In the 90s he finishe dwith an average of 58. A period where he played atleast 30 tests less than he should have. He is as good as 70 average batsman. He ended up under-achieving. His range is still unrivalled.
Ab Fan
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Tendulkar is widely remembered as a GOAT cricketer and has such a monumental legacy that posters are in awestruck of him even 12 years later of his retirement.
Talking about Root, he is a quality player and better than Pietersen but the blemish in Australia and lack of tons in top countries is the reason why he probably can’t be regarded as a true ATG like Smith or Kohli. However, he should be good enough to be rated among top 30 batters of all-time.
Talking about Root, he is a quality player and better than Pietersen but the blemish in Australia and lack of tons in top countries is the reason why he probably can’t be regarded as a true ATG like Smith or Kohli. However, he should be good enough to be rated among top 30 batters of all-time.
jnaveen1980
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But as Brett Lee said in the recent interview last month Aussies respect those who give it back to them. In that respect he rates Kevin pietersen and Flintoff above others.
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50 tests are enough to show greatness and be in contention for ATG XI.
50 tests are not enough for volume related record.
Two different things. Quality vs Quantity. Since SRT had quality and quantity both, many forget to separate those two.
Hoping for Root to smash volume record. Not out of question if he can have 2 big years.
jnaveen1980
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Most often Tendulkar would get out to a nothing ball in the 90s when he was at top of his game. If he had really wanted to end up with an average of 60 he could have easily done. Combination of few things didn't allow him. Lack of Tests, He was technically the most superior batsman bar none in the 90s. It is laughable to see people call Sachin being selfish right through his career If he had been he would average over 70. Towards the end of his career he was selfish. But Most of the time he lost his wicket ot some rash shot in the 90s when he had bowling at his mercy. THen match fixing issues. Almost all the experts rated him an ATG by 1998 istelf.
Here is one part from teheleka report
According to the Tehelka expose, "match fixers" considered Sachin Tendulkar as a major obstacle to their plans because his immense talent and reputation made it nearly impossible to manipulate the outcome of a match when he was playing, effectively "spoiling" their attempts to fix matches; essentially, the idea was that "you can't fix a match until Sachin Tendulkar is out.".
- Impact of Tendulkar's presence:
The tapes reportedly included conversations where bookies and fixers discussed how Tendulkar's batting prowess made it extremely difficult to engineer a desired result in a match. - Reputation and Integrity:
This perception further solidified Tendulkar's image as a cricketer of exceptional integrity, who could not be easily swayed or influenced to participate in match-fixing activities.
jnaveen1980
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Anyway let me not sidetrack anymore. This is just abotu Root. Let us just talk about Root. TEndulkar doesn't need validation in every thread.
mominsaigol
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Kohli > Root in test? Hahahahahahaha
jnaveen1980
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In current form Kohli shouldn't be playing Tests. He is just playing from memory.
sweep_shot
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These Indian fans truly live in an alternative reality.
I am surprised they didn't say Kohli > Bradman in Test. LOL.
From the Fab 4, Root and Smith are the best ones in Test without a doubt.
mominsaigol
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Kohli was never a good test player bro or a good t20 player.
Don't get me wrong he was, What I meant was, in t20 and tests kohli had a purple patch where he was dominating. During his purple patch he was the 2nd best test player after steve smith in his era and overall the best t20 player.
However once that purple patch ended he was just okay in t20 until 2024 where he was a has-been. Same in tests, He was just okay and kept declining and declining only playing miracle innings here and their.
Odi is the one format where he's remained consistent and is arguably the greatest no 3 of all time with only Pointing being up for debate.
In tests and t20, He was a goner once the purple patch ended.
jnaveen1980
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Kohli was a good T20 player when the par scores were around 180. We can't judge his T20 credentials based on current norm. 7 or 8 years back his innings building role was a good role. But in order to maximize that role you need attacking players playing around you. Sadly Kohli's great innings was ruined by ruined by Rahane's run a ball 50. Otherwise INdia would have knocked Windies out in 2016 world cup. Also India took a couple of wickets of no balls. An easy win turne dinto loss. Same way in 2014 final MSD and Yuvraj supposed to finish the job as Kohli was going good. But they tuk tuked and made Kohli's innings irrelevant.
In Tests he had 3 or 4 good years. That's about it. It was a case of good batsman enjoying his peak. That's about it. He never took his game ot next level after covid. If anything he regressed. He didn't make much of technical adjustments.He should retire from all formats. ODIs are his best form. He could have completely stoppedp laying Tests and still be a multi millionaire. Fact is he did respect that format. THat is one reason why India invested a lot in Tests. That is the only reason i have respect for Kohli. He respected the format regardless of his career achievements.
Ab Fan
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Yes, Kohli has 7 tons in Australia compared to 0 by Root. In addition to that, he is player of series in ODI and T20 WC. You yourself bring white ball in test discussions so time to face the music now. Stop living in your delusional world alongwith @sweep_shot and get up and face the reality. 
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mominsaigol
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Root only has a poor record in aus where he avg 35. However not only does Root surpass him in every other country.Yes, Kohli has 7 tons in Australia compared to 0 by Root. In addition to that, he is player of series in ODI and T20 WC. You yourself bring white ball in test discussions so time to face the music now. Stop living in your delusional world alongwith @sweep_shot and get up and face the reality.
Since 2020 Kphli has been avg in the high 20's in test cricket.
The guy is useless in test and is reaching VVS Laxman level status in test. Dude went from Sachin to laxman lol.
Australia is not the beach mark metric for test cricket. Root surpassing kohli in avg, runs and performances in other countries is > Kohli who been avg 25 to 29 since 2020 in test cricket and overall has an even bigger rubbish record against NZ in test cricket then Root does in aus.
The fact that you put the likes of ashwin next to Pollock, the likes of Kohli > root in test cricket shows how little you understand cricket in a nutshell.
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Seriously??
Player of the tournament 2014 WC T20
Player of the tournament 2016 WC T20
12 away test tons in Aus, SA, NZ and Eng with huge series in Aus and Eng.
sweep_shot
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Kohli is a statpadder in T20. What did India win in 2014 or 2016? They failed to win either. Kohli is also a statpadder for RCB; RCB is yet to win any IPL trophy.
In Test, Kohli is average. Smith and Root are better than Kohli in Test.
mominsaigol
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Please read the whole paragraph
jeeteshssaxena
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yeah he got MOTM in wt20 final, so he got his reward for having a fantastic t20 career.
Statpadder is what you call Williamson, Root and Smith in t20s.
jeeteshssaxena
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There is no reason to read it, if you pick up most man of the matches award from India in t20s and then his performance in world t20s there would be no other proof required, not only is he an ATG t20 player but also the GOAT T20 world cup performer, I challenge you to pick a player who has done more in t20 wc knockouts than Kohli.
mominsaigol
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Let me rephrase cause I'm in no mood to fight.
Kohli during his purple patch era or whatever terminology you guys use was
1) The best odi player
2) The best t20 player
3) The 2nd best test player after steve smith
Kohli post 2020 is
1) TOP 5 best odi players, At home conditons in India he's no 1, overseas he's top 5.
2) Better then then likes of Babar, Rizwan, Smith in t20 but overall a terrible t20 player and not even in top 25.
3) A horrible test player who's trash but once in a blue moon will score a century here and their, but not even in the league of current root.
^^ Hope that sums it up.
jeeteshssaxena
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Also statpadders are your favourite Babar abd Rizwan who strike at a str rate 10 less than Kohli while also averaging less than him and having zero memorable performances in wt20 knockouts.
Anyone calling Kohli a statspadder or an acerage t20 player shouldn’t be taken seriously coz he has never followed the game.
Kohlis one innings in wt20 2022 is greater than whole careers of Root, Smith, Kane, Babar, Rizwan combined in t20.
jeeteshssaxena
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Ha then that settle it, Kohli is the greatest LOI batsman of this generation and by a long shot, no one comes close, also the greatest three format batsman in history of the game .
Even after being trash in tests in last 4 years he still averages 48.2, that is as good as Pietersen who is Englands second greatest player in last 50 years, so he has done good enough in tests cricket too.
Also lets see how this goes, he is still playing and struck a century in last innings, something which other ATGs haven’t been able to do in their whole career.
mominsaigol
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Oh bhai chill karo. Now that I'm married, I'm in no mood to pull one liners or fight.
Now back to topic, Firstly kohli avg 25 to 29 in these last 4 years. He went from an avg of 56 to 48 which is pathetic. Since even steve smith who's in crappie form will still finish his career at an avg of atleast 53-55.
This shows how terrible kohli has been since unlike piterson, If kohli was even half competent in test, he'd still be averaging in the lower 50's aka 51-53 round about.
He's been crap plain and simple.
Lastly stop saying This generation. This generation is 2020 onwards now. The lifespan of a cricketer is not that of 50+ years.
Kohli of 2014 to 2019 Is finished.
2020 to 2024 kohli is just a top 5 odi player. He was forced to retire from t20 as he was declining rapidly.
In 2021 you could tell from his innings against pakistan and NZ that he was more or less a thorn in the side.
In 2022 he played an atg innings against pakistan but his slow rizwan level 40 ball 50's got exposed by England eventually.
In 2024, He was very very lucky that he could play a slow 76 and that bumrah rescued him and saved him from flunking the entire tournament.
Same case for test.
THIS GENERATION Kohli is an avg all format player but a solid odi batter.
But yes in the last generation kohli was no 1. Won't deny that.
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I read that. You can have purple patch or you can be consistent or whatever. When all said and done, if a player has been Man of the tournament in T20 WC twice in such a short history of T20, then he belong among the top T20 player of his era.
Same way, you can call purple patch or consistency in test, but a player having 12 tons in Aus, NZ, SA and Eng with really big series in Eng and Aus, it's fantastic over all record for any test player. Only handful of players in the last 30 years have had so many tons in den of top test playing nations. Root, who is being discussed in this thead, has just 6 tons on those venues taken together with zero heavy scoring series in Aus, Ind, SA, NZ despite playing more than others.
Doing it in 5 years or 10 years is non-issue as long as he has done it. Smith is simply the best test batsman of this generation and among the top 3 in the last 30 years. Even if he hangs around for next 3 years with poor output, I will rate him same because he had shown greatness by having so many big series in tough tours and so so many tons in tough tours. If only handful of players have done something then you are fantastic player. If you have never show that greatness then I am not sure how high any player should be rated.
Point is - Did you show greatness a few times in your test career by heavily scoring in tough tours? Did you have lots of tons in tough away tours? Did you show greatness by being the best players in T20 WC couple of times? If you did all that then its a fantastic output from any player and puts them near top. I think many of us are getting too influced by his decline, but player is judged based on what they have done in entire career.
mominsaigol
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No one asked him to decline however.
Lots of players decline but I've never seen a single cricketer decline as much as Kohli in test cricket.
Any cricket player who avg 56 in their prime would have still averaged > 50 if they maintained a 30 to 35 avg in test.
Infact Kohli declined at the exact same age where root turned his entire test career around and got better and better.
It's that one aussie record that's a stain on his career in the sane way pointing has that Indian record in test.
But root is headed into Pointing's class in test cricket whereas previously he was in the class of Khawaja as a test cricketer, While Kohli is headed into the class of Laxman whereas previously he was in the class of Lara/Sachin/Smith/Sanga and many other goat tiers in test cricket.
This heavy decline is not something that can just be ignored.
It's not the case of Warner who declined in odi and t20 but can still whoop his favourite oppositions like pakistan any day of the weak.
Same case with Sanga. Sanga at the back end of his career avg 55+ simply cause he was able to butcher his favourite teams despite declining and struggling against top sides.
Not the case with kohli who's scored 3 centuries since 2020 with the 3rd one being the most recent one against aus.
mominsaigol
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Theirs a big difference between smith and kohli.
Smith no doubt has declined in test however even in 2023 he scored 3 centuries against 3 top sides and won games for his country. Even in 2023 he maintained an avg of 42.
Stark contrast from kohli who's been flunking for 4 years.
Smith is likely done by 2025 and will retire. Unless Smith sticks around with an avg of 25 as long as kohli does then he won't be considered in the same regard.
He's only been poor in 2024. Aka one year, not 4 going onto 5
Ab Fan
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Fair to conclude that @jeetesh bhai and @Buffet has already owned our wannabe Australian bhai @mominsaigol who now no longer cares who has 7 centuries in Australia and who has 0. He only knows Kohli is Indian so he is inferior to Root lol. I don’t think I need to jump into these arguments , will enjoy the time on other threads.
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Ponting himself was an examples of a big decline,
Ponting was averaging near 59 at one point and it dropped to 51 due to huge decline starting in 2009. Starting 2009, he played 41 tests with 4 tons. Avg dropping from 59 to 51 is not much different from average dropping 56 to 48 with both makign 3-4 tons in 35-40 in tests.
I still rare him as great because what he did in his career. Decline took his average down, but he had a great period in middle of his career.
Point is - decline or not, did you ever step up in tough tours? If not then you don't the pass the cut off for discussion with the best in history.
Mamoon
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Kohli is greatly admired in Pakistan and the main reason for that admiration is that he has single-handedly won matches India vs Pakistan numerous times. Sehwag was in the same boat during his playing days, but he became a dumb Internet troll post retirement.
jnaveen1980
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Root's returns in Austrlia is not entirely due to form. He went to Australia after scoring 700 plus runs against India in England. He has to make some techincal adjustments. His predominant backfoot play allows him to manage many conditions. Kohli on the other hand a predominantly frontfoot player who tries to impose himself. That in a way worked against him. He had this amazing unique ability to adapt to different formats. But over a period things got blurry for him. Played ODIs like tests. played T20s like ODIs. Played Tests like T20s chasing 7th stump line. It is very very hard players to adapt to different formats on the fly. He somehow managed it for 3 or 4 years. Gill and Jaiswal both have struggles with that.
Mamoon
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Pakistan fully concentrated on all of them, but they didn't have answers to Sehwag and Dravid. Sehwag carried a fear factor because we knew that if he were to bat for two sessions, India would run away with the match. With Dravid, it felt like we needed a miracle to get past him. He was truly a wall vs Pakistan. Tendulkar could never dominate vs Pakistan like Sehwag neither could he be an immovable object like Dravid. He was just a wingman to those two along with VVS and Ganguly.
Between 2004-2007, Pakistan new that their chances of winning/losing depend on how they bowl to Sehwag and Dravid and how they bat against Pathan and Kumble. Tendulkar didn't matter.
One of the funniest images of Tendulkar vs Pakistan - apart from the humiliating walk of shame after being declared on 194* for his selfish stat padding - was him pretending the ball kept low after Asif cleaned him up like a tailender. This was a classic Tendulkar move though. Whenever he would get clean bowled, he would pretend that the ball kept low and he didn't get technically done. His fragile ego would get hurt.
VVS used to do something similar, but instead of pretending that the ball kept low, he would stare at the umpire in shock & horror.
Romali_rotti
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Lots of players could have ended up with an avg of 30 to 40 had they played 200 test as they would have easily went into many slumps over the period of 200 test matches.
Glad you brought this up, SRT is the only player to maintain a consistent avg in the 50s after playing 200 test matches, another reason why he is the goat.
Ab Fan
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They weren’t bothered of performing vs Pakistan because they thought that they are irrelevant insignificant minnow level nation hence they only bothered performing vs the best sides of their era, i.e Australia and South Africa. They could care least about minnow nations.
mominsaigol
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No one can own me, @jeeteshssaxena literal argument is that Kohli > Root because kohli is the goat because even though he avg 25 in the last 4 years he's still the goat cause he's Pieterson level in tests.Fair to conclude that @jeetesh bhai and @Buffet has already owned our wannabe Australian bhai @mominsaigol who now no longer cares who has 7 centuries in Australia and who has 0. He only knows Kohli is Indian so he is inferior to Root lol. I don’t think I need to jump into these arguments , will enjoy the time on other threads.
mominsaigol
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Point is - decline or not, did you ever step up in tough tours? If not then you don't the pass the cut off for discussion with the best in history.
What do you mean by you? who are you referring to?
Technics 1210
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You can name 3 memorable Kohli innings, but you can't name 3 Tendulkar innings in the same vain.
This is all you need to know about bang average Tendulkar.
This is all you need to know about bang average Tendulkar.
Technics 1210
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Having said that, it is easy to list memorable Tendulkar humiliations.
1989 - debut vs Pakistan - a welcomed bloody nose - refused to play Pakistan since then.
1996 - WC Semi final Eden Park - match awarded to Sri Lanka.
1999 - century in lost cause vs Pakistan, in India.
1999 - first ever golden duck vs Pakistan, in front of 100K home crowd.
2004 - despite being warned for slow batting, he bottled the time and walks off with a 194* - couldn't score 6 runs in 3 overs.
2012 - most centuries in losing causes, including his last one, vs Bangladesh
Honourable mentions:
Excluded from the Indian Cricketer of the Century award (Kapil Dev wins it)
Excluded from the Wisden Top 100 centuries of all time.
Caught ball tampering when trying to imitate Pakistan.
Played his first international match for Pakistan.
Had to steal the nicknames of great players of the past, including the great Hanif Mohammed (The OG Little Master)
All of this off the top off my head - no Google, no spreadsheets, no filters.
1989 - debut vs Pakistan - a welcomed bloody nose - refused to play Pakistan since then.
1996 - WC Semi final Eden Park - match awarded to Sri Lanka.
1999 - century in lost cause vs Pakistan, in India.
1999 - first ever golden duck vs Pakistan, in front of 100K home crowd.
2004 - despite being warned for slow batting, he bottled the time and walks off with a 194* - couldn't score 6 runs in 3 overs.
2012 - most centuries in losing causes, including his last one, vs Bangladesh
Honourable mentions:
Excluded from the Indian Cricketer of the Century award (Kapil Dev wins it)
Excluded from the Wisden Top 100 centuries of all time.
Caught ball tampering when trying to imitate Pakistan.
Played his first international match for Pakistan.
Had to steal the nicknames of great players of the past, including the great Hanif Mohammed (The OG Little Master)
All of this off the top off my head - no Google, no spreadsheets, no filters.
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I was referring to Root not having any big series in tough tours. Scoring one ton in a test and then not scoring big in other tests is not really stepping up.
Root has zero series in Ind, SA, Aus, NZ with more than one ton despite having 150-160 test long career with many long series. I could understand if he was playing for SA or SL who don't play regularly and get long series.
Can you name a single great player who didn't a big series in any tough tours? I can't recall any.
As much as I like Root, I would like him to have few big series to get to next level. If he finishes his career without that, from Eng I will take Cook over him. Cook stepped up in tough series. I am not asking Root to win. Batsman can't win tests, because you need to take 20 wickets to win a test. But, come on, you got to go big few times in such a long career to cement your place at that level as a test specialist.
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You guys need to talk about Root vs sachin instead of trolling each other. No need for Irrelevant posts here
mominsaigol
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Root > Cook 100%. As for root, Root has stepped up in tough series as well.
Just not against australia. Root has literally smacked India? The only excuse people have is that India isn't great in English conditons.
How is Root > Cook ?
mominsaigol
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I'm sorry but what is cooks avg and record in other countries again?
You all need to stop looking at one or 2 innings and basing your judgement.
People use the same garbage logic for Laxman.
Ab Fan
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I accept your apology. You should stop looking at one or 2 innings of Travis Head or Steve Smith in ODIs. That would be a good start.
mominsaigol
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I've never done that. You apply that logic to ashwin, Laxman and Jadeja ironically
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Ab Fan
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Not really. I never mentioned 1-2 innings of Ashwin and Jadeja, it is their entire career. You don’t get 11 player of series with 1-2 performance.
For VVS Laxman, I mentioned 10-12 knocks on top of my head but you guys were ignorant enough to respond to it. He was a KP mode test batsman, a player who is inconsistent but capable of playing great knocks.
I don’t believe in rating players based on 1-2 knocks. I believe in rating players based on their overall career. Again it is not just stats but more to it.
If someone averages 50 due to hitting 10 tons vs BD and Zim while other guy averages 46 and has played memorable knocks vs top teams like Australia and South Africa, he deserves to be rated higher because it is not the same level field.
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I wouldn't say that 100%. Not for me. I saw Cook's entire career as well.
Root has not stepped up in tough away tours.
Look at Root's output in all away series in Ind, SA, Aus, NZ
In NZ 2012 - 0 ton
In Aus in 2013 - 0 ton
In SA in 2015 - 1 ton
In Ind 2016 - 1 ton
In Aus 2017 - 0 ton
In NZ 2017 - 0 ton
IN NZ 2019 - 1 ton
SA 2019 - 0 ton
Ind 2020 - 1 ton
Aus 2021 - 0 ton
NZ 2022 - 1 ton
Ind 2023 - 1 ton
Not a single stand out away series.
Root in Ashes since he is Eng batsman ( home and away combined ) - Avg 40 with one good series out of so many Ashes series. So nothing to see in Ashes. I don't think he has had a stand out series at home even agaisnt SA. If I recall then 1 ton in 3 series he has played agasint SA at home.
For Eng batsman, ordinary Ashes record home and awya combined + no big series in Ind, SA, Aus and NZ. So what's left?
So are we saying that Root is great because how he did at home against India? That's simply too low a bar for me.
That's why Root has not cemented his place above Cook. If Root retires without any big series away or having so little impact in Ashes, I will take Cook above Root. I am totally against rating some one for volume. Kudos for Anderson to take 700 test wickets and kudos to Root for scoring 13-15K runs, but without impact in Ahses and tough tours, sorry can't rate them high. It makes them special player for Eng(no one else plays so much cricket). Very few players will get to play 150 tests in 10-12 years of their peak. Root got to do that due to playing for Eng and yet ordinary in Ashes and no big away series in top 4-5 away countries during his career. 1 great series at home against India? Nah, that's just too low a bar for greatness.
mominsaigol
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Thats a fair point. Cook has stepped up in big tours but I also value consistency.
I may be old fashioned but for me I just don't rate players who don't avg 50 in test cricket as top order batsmen.
Their some exceptions such as Sehwag and Chris gayle but that's due to their insane strike rate for tests.
As for Travis head, I make an exception because he's an allformat gun and not a test specialist so going at an avg of 40+ in all formats and playing quick for each format standards is good enough for me but granted they ain't greats.
With the exception of Australia, Root avg 45 to 65 in every country and consistency scores runs, infact he has a double century against india's all star attack in their own den.
Furthermore I wouldn't go back to 2013-2014. Unlike the likes of kohli and smith who are fizzling out, Root's career is on an upward trajectory atm and he seems to be improving day by day.
Cook on the other hand was only better at playing against India and aus then Root was. Otherwise root has been more consistent then him in all countries especially sa and Nz
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All 50 avg are not same. 50 Avg in 2000s was far more easy than let's say in 90s or 2010s. 50 avg for opener is much harder than some one batting at number 3-4.
To make my point about opener,
Here is all opener's list in the last 50 years, Only Hayden, Gavaskar and Sehwag have averaged 50 plus as an opener. List ends there, that's it. Just 3 in 50 years.
Number of batsmen with 50 plus avg with 5K runs,
90s: 3
00s: 13 [ dime and dozen in 00s ]
10s: 4
I will not rate some one based on avg in 00s.
But one thing always stands out in any era. You got to be true great to perform and score lots of tons in tough away tours. Cook has 12 tons in tough away tours and Root has 6. Yes, it has been tough to score tons in tough away series during Root's career for sure, but then Smith/Kohli have 12 tons each. In fact, many other players like Warner, Pujara, Pant etc had a great away series. It's not imposisble to score tons in tough tours.
Anyway, 50 average is a good short cut, but it is still a short cut. I will rate Root much higher with 49 avg and 3 big away series than 51 avg with no big away series. If any opener gets to the same level of tons as Root in current era and averges 2 points below Root, I will rate that opener higher as well.
All I am saying is that - 50 plus avg is less reflection of greatness than stepping up in tough tours. It has been very easy to avg 50 plus in some periods but having a big series in tough tours was difficult even in 00s. Going big at home has been easiest in all eras even if visiting team is good. So far Root has just that.
Having said this, I am not going to rate a batsman with avg of 35 with 3 big away tours higher than batsmen with avg of 51 wothout big away series. But 49 or 51, no difference to me. Lots of big away series vs none , huge difference to me. An opener with 45 avg with few big away series, you are golden.
atreus
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simple
Root averages 51
Cook averages 45
you don't really need anymore, then you add in the fact Cook played in highway era and Root in a bowler friendly and it's not all that close, the average gap between Root and Cook is the same as the one between Tom Latham and Alastair Cook. On top, Cook never performed in England well enough.
another factor, Cook was never considered the best batter in the world bar 2011-12, while Root has been number one for 5 years now..You can probably make a case for Cook if your standards are very oriented toward big away performances but it basically means you don't really like consistency and I'm not a fan of ignoring consistent output in favour of contextually different outputs in random countries.
I've made it clear that I don't really think hundreds is the factor, Don't think Root would be a better Batsmen by much if he made 100 instead of 76 at Supersport Park in 2016 or if he made 100 instead of 84 in India earlier this year, it's too much of a personal caveat rather than an objective one...infact I'd argue there are many serieses in Cricket where the batter has scored only one hundred but the series is above tours where 4 hundreds has been scored, Viv 1979 Australia and 1981 Pakistan...Hutton 1953 Ashes, Kohli 2018 South Africa and so forth.
among English batters you've three tiers
Tier 1 — Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Hammond, Barrington, Root
Tier 2 — Boycott, Compton, May
Tier 3 — Gooch, Cook, Pietersen, Gower
That seems fine on how big the margin between Root and Cook is.
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For an opener, Cook
Home avg mid 40s with 15 tons
Away avg mid 40s with 15 tons
Seems very consistent to me with and then he has ATG series in Ind and Aus to get historic win.
Now Root has, mid 50s avg at home but he has the same mid 40s avg away with zero big away series.
---------------
2nd point about him being the best test batsman in the last 5 years. So in his peak and when he is at his best, Here are Root's number's in in Aus, NZ, Ind and SA in the last 5 years when is is suppsed to be his best. Have you seen any great batsman at his best 5 years with such a ordinary record in tougher tours? Avg of 43 with 3 tons.
I think lot of us are getting influenced by Root's volume and 2-3 good series at home. He simply has a ceiling of greatness otherwise having 2-3 big series away when you are supposed to be the best batsman in world for 5 years should be given for any batsman.
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For an opener 45(130) balls are fantastic but for some one playing at 3-5 spot, 45(130) is not that impressive.
Cook has many 45(130) as an opener so penalizing him for not averaging high at home compared to Root seems a bit harsh specially when Root has nothing else over Root in his test career. Root at home has gone missing against SA and Aus both so we can't even say that he has been dominating all teams at home. For away, it's a no brainer who will get picked if you have to pick one.
Cook has many 45(130) as an opener so penalizing him for not averaging high at home compared to Root seems a bit harsh specially when Root has nothing else over Root in his test career. Root at home has gone missing against SA and Aus both so we can't even say that he has been dominating all teams at home. For away, it's a no brainer who will get picked if you have to pick one.
atreus
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different eras really
a mid 40s average at home is...okay? but at home he averages 30 against Australia and 30 something against South Africa and struggled in SA greatly as well so...I don't really think Root would struggle to make hundreds in the Australia Cook played in, before the current Quaret reassurected the Australian bowling, people like Trott and Kane had multiple hundreds tours of Australia and they're vastly inferior batters to Root so I don't doubt he could probably do it?
And Yes, Cook has a mid 40s average away but Root averages 60 for the last 10 years at home, that's High tier ATG territory, I'll take the guy who is ATG in half his games over the guy who is ATG in two tours in his whole career.
Just, Australia and India these days have been much harder places to tour, that's not to excuse Root's record in Australia but I don't think it translates 1:1 with Cook, iirc Cook and Root averaged about the same in Australia in both the ashes they actually shared (2013 and 17), also led England to wins in India while playing as an all rounder, one witn a 200 and one with a 4fer, overall I don't really tiink it's that clear, you can argue Cook is better against high bounce and better at cashing in on flatter wickets, but against every other kind of pace bowling Root has proven himself to be quite a bit superior.
here are the stats for games Root and Cook played together, Root 50, Cook 40.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
that is a huge gap, and it's not like Cook was too old, he retired at 33..
so the reason I've Root over Cook is
1. a more varied record
2. dominance in a very tough era for batting while Cook just blended in with the Younis/Clarkes of his era, when there was no great bowler around bar you know who.
3. ATG at home vs merely decent at home
4. completely outperforms his peers in this era while same can't be said for Cook.
Personally, I think your caveat of big away tours work when comparing Root with say Sachin or Lara, but when comparing with guys like Cook or Kohli it just doesn't work because their career output and all around record is simply too inferior for random serieses to break the tie, it works when you're comparing Cook to say Smith or Hayden, compared to Root? it just doesn't work. Isn't this just the sign of a tier 2 ATG? Kallis has no big away tours with multiples tons (in major countries), Sangakkara doesn't have one either, Dravid has nothing except England tours, Ponting doesn't have a 3 hundred series either and for the most part doesn't have a 2 hundreds series and so forth, I don't think Cook is even close to any of them, why would he be close to Root?
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Some good points raised by you here regarding Cook. Some points raised for Root does not stand up when you look.different eras really
a mid 40s average at home is...okay? but at home he averages 30 against Australia and 30 something against South Africa and struggled in SA greatly as well so...I don't really think Root would struggle to make hundreds in the Australia Cook played in, before the current Quaret reassurected the Australian bowling, people like Trott and Kane had multiple hundreds tours of Australia and they're vastly inferior batters to Root so I don't doubt he could probably do it?
And Yes, Cook has a mid 40s average away but Root averages 60 for the last 10 years at home, that's High tier ATG territory, I'll take the guy who is ATG in half his games over the guy who is ATG in two tours in his whole career.
Just, Australia and India these days have been much harder places to tour, that's not to excuse Root's record in Australia but I don't think it translates 1:1 with Cook, iirc Cook and Root averaged about the same in Australia in both the ashes they actually shared (2013 and 17), also led England to wins in India while playing as an all rounder, one witn a 200 and one with a 4fer, overall I don't really tiink it's that clear, you can argue Cook is better against high bounce and better at cashing in on flatter wickets, but against every other kind of pace bowling Root has proven himself to be quite a bit superior.
here are the stats for games Root and Cook played together, Root 50, Cook 40.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
that is a huge gap, and it's not like Cook was too old, he retired at 33..
so the reason I've Root over Cook is
1. a more varied record
2. dominance in a very tough era for batting while Cook just blended in with the Younis/Clarkes of his era, when there was no great bowler around bar you know who.
3. ATG at home vs merely decent at home
4. completely outperforms his peers in this era while same can't be said for Cook.
Personally, I think your caveat of big away tours work when comparing Root with say Sachin or Lara, but when comparing with guys like Cook or Kohli it just doesn't work because their career output and all around record is simply too inferior for random serieses to break the tie, it works when you're comparing Cook to say Smith or Hayden, compared to Root? it just doesn't work. Isn't this just the sign of a tier 2 ATG? Kallis has no big away tours with multiples tons (in major countries), Sangakkara doesn't have one either, Dravid has nothing except England tours, Ponting doesn't have a 3 hundred series either and for the most part doesn't have a 2 hundreds series and so forth, I don't think Cook is even close to any of them, why would he be close to Root?
Sanga/Kallis did not get to play long series like Root so regularly. SL/SA got many shorter series. Root gets lots of long series and yet he has zero big series. Dravid had many big series with more than 1 tons and ponting went big in SA.
Since Root debuted, Eng has played series like this. NZ is only exception for short series for Root. Let's ignore NZ, but
After Debute, Root has long serieses like this.
2013 in Aus - 5 tests
2015 in SA - 4 tests
2016 in Ind - 5 tests
2017 in Aus - 5 tests
2019 in SA - 4 tests
2020 in Ind - 4 tests
2021 in Aus - 5 tests
2023 in Ind - 5 tests
Let's ignore lack of no series with more than one ton by Root. You can simply see how many times he has gone big to begin with in individual tests.
I don't think it should be brushed by saying that it's hard to score. Yes, SA, Ind, Aus and Eng all had many bowlers with avg below 25 in this period so it has been hard to score in those places for visitors. But no one has gotten more oppurtunity. See below, this include the period when Root is supposed to be the best bastman for 5 years period.
4 tons in 35-40 tests, that's just ridiculously low for supposedly the best batsman for 5 years.
Has Root done anything of note to leave a mark of ATG batsman. Surely not away. You said that his career is ATG at home. I beg to differ. Root has been ordinary against Aus and SA both at home. Averaging 43 in 27 tests with 5 tons. Nothing great about it.
Yes, he had performed against India. Even against India, just one series where he scored really big when India had good bowling. In 2018 series he averaged 35 at home against India and before that India had really poor bowling.
So clearly, it's bit of a stretch but we can make a case for home. But when all said and done, 2-3 good series against good bowling unit in career with 150-160 tests, that's too little for greatness.
I note your point about Cook being ordinary against Aus and SA at home. I think Eng media has overhyped Root and under rated players like Cook. I don't want to put up away tons by Dravid, Sangha or Ponting here because they played in different era and they had far more tons. Let's keep it for Root's era. He seems to be struggling big time when it comes to going big in tough tours. Be it individual tests or series. How do you actually measure greatness, XYZ avg > ABC avg?? I think that's lazy way to rate players.
I am not saying that Cook is surely a better than Root, but I could see a case for rating Cook above due to being an opener despite him averaging 3-4 points less in career specially given he stepped up in few tough tours. If Root can score in few tough tours then sure, it's just one way decision. But if Root finishes his career without ever getting a big series ands output like 4 tons in 40 tests in Ind,Aus, SA then I don't think it's so simple to rate Root above Cook.
It's all academic right now, so let's see how Root does in next series in Aus.
One thing I will say is root benefitted alot from focusing only on tests after a certain period
If kohli did the same I think his average would be better. Maybe 50.
jnaveen1980
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My favorite English batsman is always KP. That swagger, stage presence cannot be matched by other innings builders, accumulators from England. Cook, Root, Strauss, Ian Bell.. et al. I still remember his dominating 186 at Wankhede. It was a pure joy to watch. Cook also scored a 100. But KP showed the range that Cook, Root can only imagine in dreams.
atreus
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Kallis for one had three opportunities for example in
1998 in England — 5 matches
2000 in West Indies — 5 matches
Basil D Oliveira 2008 — 4 matches
even more importantly, I think this just gives us another caveat, for example earlier this year Root had a hundred in India and next game he had an 84, I don't realy personally believe his Batsmenship would be amplified massively if he scored 102 instead of 84 because at the end of the day a hundred is just an arbitrary number, impact is the most important metric and I can remember more great work from Root in India/South Africa and Newzealand then I can remember from Sangakkara...anywhere?
Sangakkara for example, has 2 hundreds in 22 innings in England, and it's not like he hasn't tourned England enough, he has more matches in England than Root does in South Africa and it's not like England was extremely difficult in 2000s...unlike modern south Africa which is extremely difficult to score in, he has played as much as Root in South Africa but has same amount of tons and averages 15 points less and batted on South African pitches that were still somewhat decent for batting. He has nothing in the carribean. I don't think on the basis of all this that it's fair for us to just overlook Sangakkara's brilliance, same extends to Root.
a point I think should be made when you mention the Indian record of Root (3 tons) is that this is the bowling average of India throughout Root's career
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
this output from Indian bowlers at home, is quite literally, greater than the output from the mighty windies bowlers at home.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
hell South Africa is just as low as fall as bowling averages go.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
and the aussie ones don't even compete
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
so what I'm overall saying is, nobody should look at his South African and Indian records and think that it's a hole in his record, seriously if someone in 80s west indies averaged 45 with three tons while playing as an all rounder and averaged 50 in the Australia of 2000s, would anyone really think that averaging 45/50 against them is bad or a hole in a record? I think you substantially underestimate how much more difficult scoring has been post 2015 away from home.
I don't really think there is much argument for him being best post-COVID?
other than averaging 45/50 against attacks I showed you have insane output at home, here are his great tours at home.
2014 Pataudi trophy
2015 Ashes
Basil D Oliveira trophy 2017
2021 Pataudi Trophy — 4 hundreds against Bumrah
2021 NZ series where he had a clutch hundred on an extremely spicy wicket
Sri Lanka series literally few months back
he did well against everyone and everything bar two serieses. averaged 50+ in 2023 Ashes as well
2018 Pataudi trophy
2019 Ashes
Basil D Oliveira 2022
he manages 35-40 average in the first two but mostly the preassure of captaincy is what got to him, he was in the downperiod of his career
Has Joe Root fallen out of the Fab Four?
Over the last couple of years or so, England's captain has not quite kept pace with Smith, Kohli and Williamson
and the 2022 Basil D Oliveira is just 4 innings, not enough to be taken seriously to me as a critique.
other than that he literally averages 55 in England... against dukes with a nothing top order and under immense presssure, I don't really know what you exactly want him to do more lol, his ashes record could be better but he averages 50+ in two series and in one he was 21-22 so I don't mind, he has brutalized India, his record against SA isn't great but he has a great series, his record against everyone else is amazing, don't really know how he isn't an absolute top level ATG at home
and now for how I measure greatness, I don't think the English media overhyped Root, if anything they're brutal to him for his away ashes record, to me the measurement of greatness is done by seeing their competency against certain types of bowling and batting and their performance in certain countries.
Swing/Seam Bowling — This can be seen by the performances in England and West Indies against Dukes which have extremely exaggerated movement on average, and performance in New Zealand where the ball swings albeit not to the same extent. If one does extremely well in England and fails in New Zealand I'd rate that player extremely highly against pace as the ball swings substantially more in England and for much longer. if one is failiure in England but successful in New Zealand I think their output against swing is questionable deeply and mostly downright fraudulent considering New Zealand stops moving after the new ball.
Bounce/Pace bowling — Performances in Australia and South Africa, in Australia the ball gains pace from the pitch but the bounce is always awkward and high, and a swing legend would not be successful in Australia as shown by Root and Dravid and so many English batters, south Africa has even more sideways movement and has both awkward high bounce and disgustingly low bounce making the bounce variable, if one performs in Australia but fails in South Africa I think he struggles with variable bounce and his output against it is flawed, if one performs in South Africa but struggles in Australia I think his game against high bounce is flawed. South Africa also has much more sideways movement so it's harder to score there than in Australia and I rate runs there higher. Australia was also ultra flat in 2000s
Spin — India and Sri Lanka, sometimes UAE has slow turners but was mostly flat, Sri Lanka has been rank turner Galore since Murali but India after 2011 has reverted more to it's traditional spinning wickets, I don't think there is much difference between the pitches in India and Sri Lanka but I rate runs against Lanka in 2000s much higher as India was flat as hell those days and Sri Lanka had Murali, while these days I rate runs against India more due to Ashwin and Jadeja.
that's my basic criteria, now, obviously closer analysis is better for everything but that should give you a general idea. for example, Dravid averages 52 and Sangakkara 57 but I have IVA Richards with a 50 average as the best Batsmen after the second world war, or how Kane Williamson averages 55(?) but I think Martin Crowe averaging 45 was a finer Batsmen because I saw him prove himself against more and better bowling. so forth.
anyway, we'll see if he gets big serieses, if he does he's top ten, if he doesn't then top 20.
atreus
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anyway, Root seems to have lots of years left
www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
He intends to play One days until 2027, he would certainly drop ODI in 2027 to extend his test match career by a few years, we're looking at a 2029/2030 time for retirement, many runs to score, many things can change by retirement
Cricket World Cup 2023: England's Joe Root targets 2027 tournament with no plans to quit ODIs - BBC Sport
England batter Joe Root says he has no plans to retire from one-day cricket after the World Cup and is aiming to play in the next tournament in 2027.
www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
He intends to play One days until 2027, he would certainly drop ODI in 2027 to extend his test match career by a few years, we're looking at a 2029/2030 time for retirement, many runs to score, many things can change by retirement
atreus
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Root had a really bad Pakistan tour and now he also did nothing in NZ. Had he scored some runs in Pakistan tour, he would have been closer to his target.
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I honestly rate Sanaga lower than most rate him in this forum. Sanga was pretty ordinary in SA, Eng and SA. One thing went against him - he did not get long series. Don't get me started on Kane. I don't rate him high due to not doing much in Eng, Ind, Aus and SA.
I agree that it's been hard to score big in Ind, Aus, Eng and SA in the last 8-10 years due to many bowles averaging below 25 playing for them.
Reading your details of home for Root, he has been at ATG level in the last 5 years at home. I stand corrected. His away in SA, Aus, Ind has remained at the same level even in the last 5 years so big room for improvement there.
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Then he will surely get the highest run tally. Eng plays lots of tests and 3-4 years should be enough. I will be happy to see him getting some big series in Aus, Ind or SA. Yes, it's been tough but that's what makes it fun.anyway, Root seems to have lots of years left
Cricket World Cup 2023: England's Joe Root targets 2027 tournament with no plans to quit ODIs - BBC Sport
England batter Joe Root says he has no plans to retire from one-day cricket after the World Cup and is aiming to play in the next tournament in 2027.
He intends to play One days until 2027, he would certainly drop ODI in 2027 to extend his test match career by a few years, we're looking at a 2029/2030 time for retirement, many runs to score, many things can change by retirement
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I won't call it a good tour of Pakistan but he did cash in on flat track and as result he got 350 runs. Not bad as far as target of highest run tally is concerned. Only 1 test in NZ so far so plenty of cricket left. he does not need to have great tours, he needs to jut keep scoring enough runs and he should cross highest run tally.
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He could have scored atleast 600 runs if Pakistan had not changed the pitch conditions.
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He can get 4-5 big series at home and 4-5 normaly series away. That should be enough for him to cross the tally.
Bradman is way overrated. Way too much.I'm saying you don't know how to read
I listed Sanga, Steve smith and lara in contention with Tendulkar.
Bradman is >>>>>>>>>>> Tendulkar.
As for root. Root is below atm for root to catch up or surpass tenda he needs to improve in certain countries however since his career is headed in an upward trajectory and he has plenty of time, he might be able to boost it up.
Sanga Kallis Smith are some people that i saw and were as good as tendulkar in tests.
That is a fact. Even if root passes 16k mark i know for a fact that for most of his career he was considered below smith and kohli as a cricketer in this era
Yes we all believed that early on in there careers but sadly kohli has had a big dip in his test form in last years.
During his purple patch he looked the best of the lot
Kohli is one of the best t20 bats that ever played.
Name a better performing t20 batter in wc.
He dominated 2 like no one has ever done. Its now in the late stage of his career that he seems a bit slow but still he was the only one scoring anything in the final.
