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England v Pakistan | 4th Test | The Oval | Aug 11-15, 2016 | Day 3

MMHS said:
Great words, just one confusion - someone Denis Keith Lillee was asked about top 5 openers he had bowled ever; the 4th name was Sadiq Mohammad. Do you think, DK would have rated Sulman Butt among his top 5?
Click to expand...

I never knew that! I'm genuinely gobsmacked.

When Lancashire would play against "Proctershire" we feared Mike Procter and Zaheer Abbas, but I always thought of Sadiq as a journeyman to be honest.

But I was only a kid at the time, and if I were you I would DEFINITELY take DK Lillee's opinion ahead of mine!
 
Junaids said:
Sarfraz Ahmed scores this series:

25 + 45
26 + 7
46* + 0
44

Sooner or later Pakistan is going to have to deal with the fact that it is Sarfraz' inability to make big scores which is stopping you from picking a pace bowling all-rounder like Hasan Ali, Amad Butt or Aamer Yamin.

Cricket has changed. Not only can you not afford a keeper like Wasim Bari who scored no runs, you can't afford one like Rashid Latif or Sarfraz who scores 40s but not bigger innings.
Click to expand...

Lol, so now you want to drop Sarfraz who up to this point in his career has performed better than any other wicketkeepers Pak has had, averaging more than Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq?
 
Strike Rate said:
I hope they can stand for long they showed it during last match.
Click to expand...

May be 125, would make ENG nervous. 150+ should win this game. I think, this is a different surface than Birmingham & Wahab is there to reverse the ball.

Everything depends on how many sitters PAK drops - had Root gone before lunch to make it 170/4; PAK would have chased 200 at Birmingham.
 
Rambo always looks nervous when asked to do critical analysis. But he hasnt been exposed yet
 
Would love another 60-70 runs. Getting past 450 would be ideal.
 
shaz619 said:
What lead you reckon pak need at the very least on this wicket
Click to expand...

At least 100, otherwise match is almost even with 4 bowlers. After 70-80 overs, this attack with 2 35+ pacer won't have the knees to carry.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
That was a dig at posters who thought YK was terrible against pace.
Click to expand...

lol yea

anyone remember his backfoot punch shot he played in air 2 years ago against a SL seamer? that was real beauty. Found the pic and thread but can't find video

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?194260-Younis-Khan-s-backfoot-drive-shot

175731.jpg
 
Our double agent Moeen is in, time to whack him around a bit.:moali
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
Lol, so now you want to drop Sarfraz who up to this point in his career has performed better than any other wicketkeepers Pak has had, averaging more than Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq?
Click to expand...

I'd play Sarfraz in Asia, where you need a keeper who is competent keeping and batting against spin.

But outside Asia I'd use Mohammad Rizwan as the wicketkeeper, because he is good enough to bat at 6, allowing you to play 4 quicks and a spinner, so long as 2 of the 4 quicks are good batsmen.
 
Good session. Shame we lost yet another wicket to Woakes, but we look well placed to push past 450.
 
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Loved that comment fron botham, " younis kham and misbah just destroy the spinners, no mercy" lolll
 
shaz619 said:
Markhor being greedy now, you said you'd have been happy if we got to about 450! :))
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I just want a lead as close to 150 or beyond. Just gives our bowlers something to work with - we've seen how erratic they've been at times this series in giving at least one loosener per over.

Pitch still decent for batting.
 
The highest score by a Pakistani at No.5 VS England is Saleem Malik's 165 in 1992. Let's hope Younis can get a double hundred.
 
'Sarfraz is the best Al-round Wicket Keeper Batsman going around in World Cricket Today' - Shane Warne

During Lunch Analaysis
 
Markhor said:
I just want a lead as close to 150 or beyond. Just gives our bowlers something to work with - we've seen how erratic they've been at times this series in giving at least one loosener per over.

Pitch still decent for batting.
Click to expand...

Time for bowlers to stand up. 100 runs cushion is not small
 
Warne really rates Sarfi must be the way he destroyed Aussies in UAE that impressed him
 
Junaids said:
Sarfraz Ahmed scores this series:

25 + 45
26 + 7
46* + 0
44

Sooner or later Pakistan is going to have to deal with the fact that it is Sarfraz' inability to make big scores which is stopping you from picking a pace bowling all-rounder like Hasan Ali, Amad Butt or Aamer Yamin.

Cricket has changed. Not only can you not afford a keeper like Wasim Bari who scored no runs, you can't afford one like Rashid Latif or Sarfraz who scores 40s but not bigger innings.
Click to expand...

Can you Analyze Bairstow with same?

Sarfaraz isn't a problem...we are short of an all arounder who could bat and bowl.
 
Junaids said:
I'd play Sarfraz in Asia, where you need a keeper who is competent keeping and batting against spin.

But outside Asia I'd use Mohammad Rizwan as the wicketkeeper, because he is good enough to bat at 6, allowing you to play 4 quicks and a spinner, so long as 2 of the 4 quicks are good batsmen.
Click to expand...

Your knowledge regarding ability of Pakistan's player is appalling.

Do you just pick out random names and throw them as replacements for whoever you want to be replaced (which is pretty much everyone in the team)?

Please stop embarrassing yourself. Rizwan is not a proper batsman and certainly in non Asian conditions he wouldn't do any better than what Sarfaraz has done. He is an inferior wicketkeeper as well.
 
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Much better than I expected. That said another 50-odd runs would be nice too.

Well done to Sarfraz. He got the innings the kick it needed.
 
Good tense session of test cricket - pitch has quickened up and there is swing and bounce also on offer.
We ve battled very well - good to see us toughening it out.
Whatever ppl say this is a mentally tough Pakistan team
Keep batting boys ...
 
Junaids said:
I never knew that! I'm genuinely gobsmacked.

When Lancashire would play against "Proctershire" we feared Mike Procter and Zaheer Abbas, but I always thought of Sadiq as a journeyman to be honest.

But I was only a kid at the time, and if I were you I would DEFINITELY take DK Lillee's opinion ahead of mine!
Click to expand...

Those days PAK used to play very few Tests. Unfortunately Sadiq played only 41 over a decade, and not much free lunch those days - no PAK-IND Test, no SRL, no BD, no ZIM. And VS AUS/ENG, it has to be away mostly.

He has 137 & 105 at MCG against Lillee, Thompson & Max Walker; has a 166 against Hadlee at Wellington, 91, 78 & 97 against full strength English attack (all 3 in defeats) & couple of 80s against the WI of mid to late 70s. He averages higher in away than home. He was one of the most under-rated batsman of his generation; scored almost 25K FC runs, mostly in Counties for Essex & Gloucester in 70s, when every County had Test standard attack for that 4 foreigners were allowed in playing XI & entire WI, SAF, PAK, NZ & AUS attack actually played in County.

Mazid-Sadiq partnership was like watching MoHa - Azhar on absolute belter (so you know who looked like Mazid).
 
Sunil Gavaskar has the 10th most 150-plus scores with 12 once Younis reaches this milestone he will be equal Gavaskar's record of 10th most 150-plus scores.
 
Slog said:
Your knowledge regarding ability of Pakistan's player is appalling.

Do you just pick out random names and throw them as replacements for whoever you want to be replaced (which is pretty much everyone in the team)?

Please stop embarrassing yourself. Rizwan is not a proper batsman and certainly in non Asian conditions he wouldn't do any better than what Sarfaraz has done. He is an inferior wicketkeeper as well.
Click to expand...

Rizwan is a talented batsman and very well organised, if the goal was to play a specialist batsman I'd have picked him over Ifthikar for this test without a doubt. In the warm up game when Ifthi and Rizwan was batting together, both scoring runs; the BBC TMS commentators were quick to praise Rizwan and singled him out as one for the future despite watching him bat for the first time yet Ifthi got the nod ahead of him.

Rizzy also averages 43 at the FC level, not going to say he's superior to Sarfraz given that he is a future prospect but he certainly has potential.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Really?

Lead of 100 not advantage Pak?

What if pitch deteriorates tomorrow?
Click to expand...



This one I wrote in last match, on Day 3, which I didn't expect to hurt back that much.

England players play their FC matches for 416 overs (104 each day, unless it rains), therefore they are habituated to play several matches in a season where you are playing your 2nd innings ~100 behind/ahead with plenty of time left for a result. These players don't get mentally down with a lead of that size. In contrast, PAK players play 250 overs FC match, where if both teams bat for 70+ overs; 2nd innings (both batting/bowling) becomes academic - no intensity, pressure or target; just going through the motions.

You can analyse every PAK Test in last 15 years - PAK lost almost every Test after competing in first 3 days, only to lose out on Day 4 & 5. It's a pressure game in 2nd innings, more than anything else - a lead of 100 is not much pressure for ENG, they can recover that with 3 down & still they'll play their shots & keep scoring. A lead of 100 against PAK mean, they 'll plan to survive 200 overs to draw the game - eventually collapsing.

PAK Test team, in terms of skills is quite good; but apart form YK & Misbah (players that started FC career 20+ years back), rest are groomed in FC system of last 20 years, which is inferior to Dhaka League Division II, when it comes to pressure & competitiveness, where players compete in meaning full contest - hence slight pressure, you'll see players like MoHa, Azhar, Asad crumbles like pack of cards. That won't happen for English players - in fact most teams - today SRL recovered to 214/5 from 26/5 - it's not for their batting talunt or because of taluntless Aussie bowling. Cricket is a pressure game - 2nd innings of Birmingham, I felt that England was playing with 103 lead.............
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Really?

Lead of 100 not advantage Pak?

What if pitch deteriorates tomorrow?
Click to expand...

100 is a good lead but pakistan is going to be upset to just have that regarding it's position right now,pitch is not flat it hasn't much sideways movment but it has great bounce,if you bowl fast and in the pitch it's going to zip through,wahab have a big role to play.
 
Slog said:
Your knowledge regarding ability of Pakistan's player is appalling.

Do you just pick out random names and throw them as replacements for whoever you want to be replaced (which is pretty much everyone in the team)?

Please stop embarrassing yourself. Rizwan is not a proper batsman and certainly in non Asian conditions he wouldn't do any better than what Sarfaraz has done. He is an inferior wicketkeeper as well.
Click to expand...

So why is Rizwan in the full squad for England while Babar Azam is not?

I tell you, cricket has changed.

Jonny Bairstow isn't a wicketkeeper, although his Dad was. He is a specialist batsman who is learning to keep wicket - which he doesn't even do for his county - because England want to be able to pick Woakes and Stokes as 3rd and 4th quick bowlers who can bat.

BJ Watling wasn't a keeper either. Neither was Dinesh Chandimal. And AB De Villiers was a part-time keeper until Mark Boucher retired.

The point is that you play your Tests against these countries. And they use converted batsmen to keep wicket so that they can get even more runs out of whoever keeps wicket and so that they can play an extra bowler.

I don't think Yasir Shah is going to take wickets in Australia and New Zealand, so your keeper will mainly be a goalkeeper to your quick bowlers.

If you're telling me that Mohammad Rizwan isn't a good enough batsman to do what Watling, Chandimal and Bairstow do, fine. I'd select Umar Akmal instead to play goalie outside Asia and score runs.

Sarfraz Ahmed's entire career scores outside Asia are:

IN AUSTRALIA:
1 + 5

IN SOUTH AFRICA:
2 + 6
13 + 5
17 + 40

IN ENGLAND:
25 + 45
26 + 7
46* + 0
44

SARFRAZ AHMED TEST RECORD OUTSIDE ASIA
8 Tests in 3 continents.
15 Innings
0 Fifties
0 Centuries
Highest score 46 not out
Average of 20.14

Those are Mohammad Hafeez-level numbers.

I don't think you can afford to carry Sarfraz Ahmed outside Asia. Sorry.
 
Hasan123 said:
Agree bro. Sohail should be allowed to bat positively though
Click to expand...

Tail batting is not about batting skills, it's about application. PAK tail doesn't apply themselves; otherwise Wahab, Yasir, Aamir & Sohail are much better 8, 9, 10 & Jack than they look.
 
I really really really hope that mandatory wicket of session dont happen with in first hour of next session and hopefully it will not be Younis Khan...It is too difficult to accept that we will not loose 1 wicket per session..

Only exception was Iftikhar but he is clearly beyond redemption.
 
MMHS said:
This one I wrote in last match, on Day 3, which I didn't expect to hurt back that much.

England players play their FC matches for 416 overs (104 each day, unless it rains), therefore they are habituated to play several matches in a season where you are playing your 2nd innings ~100 behind/ahead with plenty of time left for a result. These players don't get mentally down with a lead of that size. In contrast, PAK players play 250 overs FC match, where if both teams bat for 70+ overs; 2nd innings (both batting/bowling) becomes academic - no intensity, pressure or target; just going through the motions.

You can analyse every PAK Test in last 15 years - PAK lost almost every Test after competing in first 3 days, only to lose out on Day 4 & 5. It's a pressure game in 2nd innings, more than anything else - a lead of 100 is not much pressure for ENG, they can recover that with 3 down & still they'll play their shots & keep scoring. A lead of 100 against PAK mean, they 'll plan to survive 200 overs to draw the game - eventually collapsing.

PAK Test team, in terms of skills is quite good; but apart form YK & Misbah (players that started FC career 20+ years back), rest are groomed in FC system of last 20 years, which is inferior to Dhaka League Division II, when it comes to pressure & competitiveness, where players compete in meaning full contest - hence slight pressure, you'll see players like MoHa, Azhar, Asad crumbles like pack of cards. That won't happen for English players - in fact most teams - today SRL recovered to 214/5 from 26/5 - it's not for their batting talunt or because of taluntless Aussie bowling. Cricket is a pressure game - 2nd innings of Birmingham, I felt that England was playing with 103 lead.............
Click to expand...

I see...thanks for the insightful post.
 
Good batting by wahab so far hope he doesn't throw it away,even if he doesn't score he just need to play as many balls as he can until younis is here.
 
Junaids said:
So why is Rizwan in the full squad for England while Babar Azam is not?

I tell you, cricket has changed.

Jonny Bairstow isn't a wicketkeeper, although his Dad was. He is a specialist batsman who is learning to keep wicket - which he doesn't even do for his county - because England want to be able to pick Woakes and Stokes as 3rd and 4th quick bowlers who can bat.

BJ Watling wasn't a keeper either. Neither was Dinesh Chandimal. And AB De Villiers was a part-time keeper until Mark Boucher retired.

The point is that you play your Tests against these countries. And they use converted batsmen to keep wicket so that they can get even more runs out of whoever keeps wicket and so that they can play an extra bowler.

I don't think Yasir Shah is going to take wickets in Australia and New Zealand, so your keeper will mainly be a goalkeeper to your quick bowlers.

If you're telling me that Mohammad Rizwan isn't a good enough batsman to do what Watling, Chandimal and Bairstow do, fine. I'd select Umar Akmal instead to play goalie outside Asia and score runs.

Sarfraz Ahmed's entire career scores outside Asia are:

IN AUSTRALIA:
1 + 5

IN SOUTH AFRICA:
2 + 6
13 + 5
17 + 40

IN ENGLAND:
25 + 45
26 + 7
46* + 0
44

SARFRAZ AHMED TEST RECORD OUTSIDE ASIA
8 Tests in 3 continents.
15 Innings
0 Fifties
0 Centuries
Highest score 46 not out
Average of 20.14

Those are Mohammad Hafeez-level numbers.

I don't think you can afford to carry Sarfraz Ahmed outside Asia. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Actually, these figures are mis-leading.

Sarfu played his 1st 4 Test in AUS & SAF, when he was totally different player & was dropped there after. I saw a new Sarfy in the match PAK chased 300+ in 2 sessions. Since then, he is totally different player & so far, he has played only 4 Tests & 7 innings outside Asia - so far has scored 193 at an average of 32+. This stats would have been better, had he played at 5 or 6, instead of trying to guide PAK tail.

Sarfraz the batsman is not an issue for PAK, Sarfu the WK is. If there was a genuine Latif class WK, I would have said that play Sarfu as specialist bat, but don't think even Adnan is much better with gloves.
 
shaz619 said:
Rizwan is a talented batsman and very well organised, if the goal was to play a specialist batsman I'd have picked him over Ifthikar for this test without a doubt. In the warm up game when Ifthi and Rizwan was batting together, both scoring runs; the BBC TMS commentators were quick to praise Rizwan and singled him out as one for the future despite watching him bat for the first time yet Ifthi got the nod ahead of him.

Rizzy also averages 43 at the FC level, not going to say he's superior to Sarfraz given that he is a future prospect but he certainly has potential.
Click to expand...

Rizwan is another Shehzad in the making. When given a chance, you'll see.

He can't play spin at all, and struggles against pace, bounce, moving ball.
 
Junaids said:
If you're telling me that Mohammad Rizwan isn't a good enough batsman to do what Watling, Chandimal and Bairstow do, fine. I'd select Umar Akmal instead to play goalie outside Asia and score runs.
Click to expand...

You're right about Rizwan, but I'd select Umar Akmal just as a pure bat. He's good enough.

For keeping Sarf should be there, we can't take chances with UA. Dropped catches behind cost us the most.
 
There is no reason why PAK shouldn't reach 475 at least. ENG attack is tiered & this is 38 overs old ball.
 
150 for Younis. One of his finest knocks outside Asia. Well played, keep going.
 
150 for YK - today, I guess there are too many people feeling ill in Peshawar..............
 
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