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Have Sajid Khan & Noman Ali’s performance proved that Ravichandran Ashwin & Ravindra Jadeja are nothing special?

Mamoon

Mamoon

ATG
Joined
Sep 3, 2012
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For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
 
Mamoon said:
For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
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Maybe. Let's see how they do If they lose the toss.

Warne also is nothing special. He did nothing in India.

Murali chucker should have all wickets revoked.
 
Offcourse they have. Those two only show up on a rank turner and Indians make them look as they are some greats.

Sajid and Noman arnt that good spinners, but on a spinning track, each took 9 and 11 wickets.
 
Pakistan will not be able to produce pitches as helpful as ones in India, so Pakistan spinners will always be behind the Indian spinners. Also Pakistani spinners are not as accurate as Indian bar Nauman.
 
Yes. Like Kamran Ghulam's performance proved in this test match that there are dozens of Pakistani batsman better than Babar Azam.

Allan Border once picked up a 11 wicket haul against Richard's West Indies.
Hence proved, Allan Border was a better spin bowler than Derek Underwood. Genius

Sajid and Nauman are not even comparable to Rehman and Ajmal who broke down a ATG England team in 2012.
 
I think Pakistan would have been more competitive with Sajid and Nauman in the first match as well. Bobsie and shaheen are the weak links of this team
 
Most Eng fans on social media are saying that the toss was crucial and the only reason why Pakistan won. Sore losers or maybe some truth to it ?
 
RexRex said:
Most Eng fans on social media are saying that the toss was crucial and the only reason why Pakistan won. Sore losers or maybe some truth to it ?
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Toss played important role as pitch was good for batting atleast for 1 day but full credit to Pakistan bowlers also .
 
Not at all. Ashwin and Jadeja take wickets on flat pitches as well.
Ashwin and Jadeja are one of the main reasons why no team has won a series in India for such a long time.
They deserve all the credit given to them.
 
Dolund Trump said:
Yes. Like Kamran Ghulam's performance proved in this test match that there are dozens of Pakistani batsman better than Babar Azam.

Allan Border once picked up a 11 wicket haul against Richard's West Indies.
Hence proved, Allan Border was a better spin bowler than Derek Underwood. Genius

Sajid and Nauman are not even comparable to Rehman and Ajmal who broke down a ATG England team in 2012.
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I have noticed these types of people with barely any comments randomly show up
 
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India produce the worst pitches. They start turning from day 1.

A bang average spinner like akshar Patel averages 18 in India and that guy doesn't even turn ball an inch. He just darts the ball yet he is so successful on these tailored wickets.

Had chacha Nauman played in India he would have picked wickets in heaps. He is much better than akshar guy.

Those pitches help Ashwin and jadeja a lot.
 
Mamoon said:
For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
Click to expand...


Yes, if they do this consistently.
Also, what makes Ash-Jadeja special in Test cricket is their batting. So that would be difficult for any other upcoming spinner from the subcontinent to replicate.
 
followed said:
India produce the worst pitches. They start turning from day 1.

A bang average spinner like akshar Patel averages 18 in India and that guy doesn't even turn ball an inch. He just darts the ball yet he is so successful on these tailored wickets.

Had chacha Nauman played in India he would have picked wickets in heaps. He is much better than akshar guy.

Those pitches help Ashwin and jadeja a lot.
Click to expand...
Classic case of judging players based on scoreboard or what most Pak delusion posters are think .
 
Devadwal said:
Classic case of judging players based on scoreboard or what most Pak delusion posters are think .
Click to expand...
one can assess how good these bowlers are based on their overseas records. I think Ashwin and Jadeja have decent ones. Low 30s away average is good.
 
followed said:
India produce the worst pitches. They start turning from day 1.

A bang average spinner like akshar Patel averages 18 in India and that guy doesn't even turn ball an inch. He just darts the ball yet he is so successful on these tailored wickets.

Had chacha Nauman played in India he would have picked wickets in heaps. He is much better than akshar guy.

Those pitches help Ashwin and jadeja a lot.
Click to expand...
Must be a great batter though, this Axar Patel. Averages 40 with the bat on these minefield pitches where he has exclusively bowled.
 
Devadwal said:
Classic case of judging players based on scoreboard or what most Pak delusion posters are think .
Click to expand...
Lol man I have seen enough of that akshar. He is just way too average of bowler he is terrible bowler if not for those dustbowls he would be averaging over 40s.

His batting is decent though.
 
No doubt that pitch plays a major role over the success of spinners but to do it over a decade is truly commendable. Nauman is a good bowler and should have played more games for Pakistan.
 
RexRex said:
Most Eng fans on social media are saying that the toss was crucial and the only reason why Pakistan won. Sore losers or maybe some truth to it ?
Click to expand...

That would apply to any spinning wicket. Toss becomes almost critical.
 
Mamoon said:
For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
Click to expand...
One swallow does not make a spring, my friend.
Congratulations to Pakistan for *finally* winning a test on home soil. But you lot have to do much more to equal India's home record. Pakistan's record of winning tests at home is still pathetic.
Typical response from Pakistanis. One victory, and you are the best, meaning, even better than India.

Please keep the entertainment coming.
 
It is no big secret. If Pakistani players are offered the opportunity to play regular Tests, and in inducive conditions, then yes, their stats would be right up there with the so called greats of India who have cheesed their stats.

Indian cricket has relied on the decline of Pakistan cricket since 2009/10, cos had all the drama with Pakistan had not happened, Pakistan would have gone toe to toe with India at every level, just like CT17, and that too, in England.

So yeah the Indian propaganda on the back of Pak player absence, has resulted in a perception that India players are at some yoda-level - which we know is not true given India's 2 decades of lost ICC trophies.
 
Technics 1210 said:
It is no big secret. If Pakistani players are offered the opportunity to play regular Tests, and in inducive conditions, then yes, their stats would be right up there with the so called greats of India who have cheesed their stats.

Indian cricket has relied on the decline of Pakistan cricket since 2009/10, cos had all the drama with Pakistan had not happened, Pakistan would have gone toe to toe with India at every level, just like CT17, and that too, in England.

So yeah the Indian propaganda on the back of Pak player absence, has resulted in a perception that India players are at some yoda-level - which we know is not true given India's 2 decades of lost ICC trophies.
Click to expand...
Really? Offered the opportunity to play regular tests?

In the WTC 2019-2021, Pakistan and India played 6 tests each.
In WTC 2021-2023, Pakistan played 14 tests while India played 18, no all that many more.
And in WTC 2023-2025, Pakistan has played 9 tests, and India 11. Not all that many more again.

Just admit that Pakistan has had plenty of opportunities and has bottled up. Even Bangladesh fancies you lot.

And enjoy this victory while it lasts. England may yet come back in the third test and beat your team in its so-called fortress. We all know what happened the last time Pak played in Pindi. 🤣 🤣
 
You can make the case that Indian cricketers are lucky to play more test matches than Pakistani cricketers due to India's pull in international cricket and the massive audience and fanbase for the sport in the country. But at the end of the day you still have to take wickets and win matches.

Pakistan has not produced a single spinner in their history that has even been able to take 300 wickets, let alone the last decade. The history of test cricket is full of bowlers that made a splash initially but faded into obscurity. There was a time when Yasir Shah was on equal footing with Ashwin. What happened after that?

Any one hit wonder can come in and dominate for a year or two. Only the best find ways to be successful over a sustained period of time. India's dominance at home is unparalleled in the recent history of test cricket. And Ashwin in particular has found success in overseas conditions aswell. South Africa is the only place where he has truly struggled. Even in Australia, which is a graveyard for spinners, he played in integral role in the last series and worked over Steve Smith multiple times. Jadeja is more of a home-track bully but is still one of the best spinners and all-rounders in world cricket.

Even Sri Lanka who generally tend to have an assembly line of spinners have not found this kind of success at home. Nor have they produced a single spinner since Rangana Herath that has been able to reach the same heights or level of success.
 
Ashwin and Jadeja are good but not as good as their numbers suggest. Great spinners are able to turn the ball on just about any surface. BCCI/India already know this and that is why they dropped Ashwin from the WTC final which Ashwin and his family did not take it kindly.
 
I have always maintained that Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh were superior bowlers. While Ashwin comes close, he’s not quite at their level. Jadeja, on the other hand, relies on straight, accurate deliveries—essentially darts—which is a skill in itself but only truly effective on turning tracks.

Ashwin and Jadeja's careers have coincided with a period when Indian cricket often played on rank turners, which has boosted their records. While their stats may be better than Kumble and Harbhajan's, they aren't necessarily better bowlers. Harbhajan, in particular, was a complete bowler, excelling even in ODIs.

The lack of success Ashwin and Jadeja have had on more balanced wickets contributes to their relatively average bowling stats in ODIs.

That being said, they are still very good players and quality bowlers—just not among the greatest the game has ever seen.
 
Mamoon said:
For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
Click to expand...
Those times when to remove/soften the edge after a hard day at work, you end up here and go to bed with your fully batteries charged.... :ds

Always awesome when the Saazish Sultans do their thing. At least you are consistent - i mean after the 'Indian Media is trying its hardest to prvent Joe Root' this one has surely upped the strike rate and increased the average :)

Spin, rinse, repeat, wake up, go to sleep - on loop 24/7/365 - always awesome when If not for XYZ/someone else -we'd top the top tenners of every top tenners ever invented and lift every ICC trophy, medal, MOM, MOTS, ace every series/tournament, If not for some one else, ICC should actually be PCC, Lord's would be Janab's, and National Stadium Karachi would be the Creme-la-Creme, the centre of the revolving world and just to step on leave alone play on the hallowed turf would the ultimate for anyone who ever picked up a bat/ball. Someone else always deprives us of what we are actually hakdar....always someone....

comedy gold....lagge raho!
 
Pakhs said:
I have always maintained that Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh were superior bowlers. While Ashwin comes close, he’s not quite at their level. Jadeja, on the other hand, relies on straight, accurate deliveries—essentially darts—which is a skill in itself but only truly effective on turning tracks.

Ashwin and Jadeja's careers have coincided with a period when Indian cricket often played on rank turners, which has boosted their records. While their stats may be better than Kumble and Harbhajan's, they aren't necessarily better bowlers. Harbhajan, in particular, was a complete bowler, excelling even in ODIs.

The lack of success Ashwin and Jadeja have had on more balanced wickets contributes to their relatively average bowling stats in ODIs.

That being said, they are still very good players and quality bowlers—just not among the greatest the game has ever seen.
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Nah. Harbhajan Singh and Ashwin are not in the same ballpark as Test bowlers. Not particularly close.

Bhajan is closer to Vettori and Kaneria than he is to Ashwin. Also, Ashwin was a terrific T20 bowler. The reason Ashwin has been unsuccesful (relatively) in white ball cricket is because the limited overs game has simply moved on from off-spinners. Leg spin rules the roost.

Bhajan was a darter for the second half of his career. Made him a hard bowler to hit in limited overs cricket but a garbage red ball bowler. Even then, Bhajji averages 33 in Odi cricket. Same as Ashwin. Their ER is also similar when accounting for Era inflation.

Jadeja is more complicated. You are right about him not being a big spinner. Would he have been as successful without DRS?. I don't think so but even then he is probably still a level above Harbhajan.
 
It's the BCCI which is forcing PCB to lay out roads for pitches and it is the BCCI which is stopping Pakistan from playing more test matches and it is the BCCI which is forcing PCB to lose Test series to Bangladesh otherwise both India and Pakistan cricket teams are level in terms of performance.
 
Katwalindian said:
Play noman chacha as many as matches as ashwin on these indian pitches, you will knew your answer
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I don't think you've followed Harbhajan or Kumble as closely, and you may be biased by the number of wickets Ashwin has taken on turning tracks. In my opinion, both Kumble and Harbhajan were more complete bowlers overall.

Ashwin has taken a huge number of wickets and is undoubtedly a good bowler, but in many of the matches in India where he's claimed big hauls, even opposition spinners, including part-timers, have had impressive records. This wasn't the case to the same extent with Harbhajan and Kumble, who excelled even when the conditions were less favorable for spin.

Regarding Noman, he may not be as good as Ashwin, but the point is that on rank turners, even someone like Noman can tear through batting lineups of non subcontinental sides at least, much like Ashwin has done albeit in much more regularity than Noman.

The record of Jadeja clearly suggest Ashwin has not had to work as hard for his wickets as Harbhajan or Kumble.
 
One small observation....

If Ash, Anil, Harbie, Rav Jadz, Akshar et all were taking wickets by the bagfulls.....
ONLY becoz of the spin friendly wickets which morphed them from talent less oafs to world beaters

Why did'nt the opposition spinners do the same?

I mean SL and BD who are pretty spin based teams have never won A SINGLE TEST in India in so many years of trying.....

SENA countries always came on our turf knowing the conditions are gonna favor spin and always have a minimum of 3 spin options - if not more, why did'nt they run throught our lineup?

You guys have a pretty gr8 spin lineage....why did'nt you absolutely slam dunk us everytime you were here?

i mean...2007....hmmm
 
Agreed with the OP. This is what I was thinking too.

Ashwin's stats outside the subcontinent prove he is an average spinner who can't even make it into the playing XI if the pitches don’t support spinners.
 
Ashwin and Jadeja have had it easy but I think Ashwin does have skills as compared to Jaddu who tends to dart them in and is more interested in social media.

This doctoring of pitches has made their successors Kuldeep, Chahal and Axar look like world beaters. When in fact they're also bang average and basically need to just turn up and let the doctored pitches do all the work.
 
Kroll said:
Ashwin and Jadeja have had it easy but I think Ashwin does have skills as compared to Jaddu who tends to dart them in and is more interested in social media.

This doctoring of pitches has made their successors Kuldeep, Chahal and Axar look like world beaters. When in fact they're also bang average and basically need to just turn up and let the doctored pitches do all the work.
Click to expand...
So why dont the 'bang average spinners 'from BD and SL 'just turn up and roll their arm over and get bag fulls of wickets'?

i mean BD and SL - pretty spinn based attacks generally, have NEVER won a SINGLE test in India...

or maybe BCCI fixed reverse revolving magnets under the pitches so that When we bowl it turns big and when the opposition including your guys bowl, it's the Ahmedabad-bombay Expressway?

or that Murli, Lyon, Shane, Shakib, Herath, Vettori et all were angling for Ranji/Duleep/Deodhar trophy contracts in absense of IPL contracts in their time?
 
CrIc_Mystique said:
So why dont the 'bang average spinners 'from BD and SL 'just turn up and roll their arm over and get bag fulls of wickets'?

i mean BD and SL - pretty spinn based attacks generally, have NEVER won a SINGLE test in India...

or maybe BCCI fixed reverse revolving magnets under the pitches so that When we bowl it turns big and when the opposition including your guys bowl, it's the Ahmedabad-bombay Expressway?

or that Murli, Lyon, Shane, Shakib, Herath, Vettori et all were angling for Ranji/Duleep/Deodhar trophy contracts in absense of IPL contracts in their time?
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I dunno about jadeja and Ashwin. Axar is pretty average. I would love to see the left armer Jayasuriya in India. Also indian batters are top players of spin so opposition doesn't get in the game as much
 
Every spinner can be dangerous in spin friendly wickets. Pakistan have been producing atrocious tracks for a while now. So their spinners are always at a disadvantage.

What makes Ashwin and Jaddu special is their ability to do it over many years. Any spinner can bowl well in friendly conditions in a series or two. But their skills will be found out eventually and their accuracy also suffers. Ash and Jaddu have kept up their performances for over a decade now and they are still going strong. Its the relentless accuracy and guile is what separates them from ordinary spinners.
 
Only problem with such theories are,

Indian bowlers with 5 plus tests and 10 plus wickets in India in the last 15 years

1729255978403.png

...


All visiting bowlers with 5 plus tests and 10 plus wickets in India in the last 15 years
1729256103562.png
 
Playing a test match on used pitch is mother of pitch doctoring .

From 145 year history never ever a test matches played on used pitch .

Pakistan did worst ever pitch doctoring to win a test match at home after 3 years .
 
Babar and SSA are deadweight, we don't need them..

I would say give Haseeb a chance over Rizwan.. we need to look to the future now..
 
Devadwal said:
Playing a test match on used pitch is mother of pitch doctoring .

From 145 year history never ever a test matches played on used pitch .

Pakistan did worst ever pitch doctoring to win a test match at home after 3 years .
Click to expand...
It was still not turning like rank turners in India.
 
Technics 1210 said:
It is no big secret. If Pakistani players are offered the opportunity to play regular Tests, and in inducive conditions, then yes, their stats would be right up there with the so called greats of India who have cheesed their stats.

Indian cricket has relied on the decline of Pakistan cricket since 2009/10, cos had all the drama with Pakistan had not happened, Pakistan would have gone toe to toe with India at every level, just like CT17, and that too, in England.

So yeah the Indian propaganda on the back of Pak player absence, has resulted in a perception that India players are at some yoda-level - which we know is not true given India's 2 decades of lost ICC trophies.
Click to expand...


India has the best W/L ratio in tournaments. What does that tell you.
 
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Can they do it again and again? If yes let's wait for them to pick 300 wickets.

Even Agarkar picked a 6-fer on flat deck in Adelaide. Greatness is about doing it day in and day out for a large sample.

Pakistan don't have a pacer to pick 200 test wickets since Waqar and a spinner to pick 300 test wickets.
 
I do partially agree. But the question is can Noman and Sajid do it away from home like Ashwin and Jadeja?
 
Katwalindian said:
Play noman chacha as many as matches as ashwin on these indian pitches, you will knew your answer
Click to expand...
I really believe no man has been hard done. He looks a great classical left arm spinner. Dude got players out on flight. Of course he will need some assistance from the pitch. It cannot be an absolute highway. Noman also has a 8-fer at Galle. He helped Pakistan win and arguably out bowled Sri Lankan spinners at their home.
 
We all know that Indians don’t like honest appraisals of their players. They are content as long as you buy into their self-created hype.

In some ways, the Indian cricket fans are like USA sports fans. They think the world revolves around them.

India have a lot of very good players and Ashwin and Jadeja are in that category as well. However, they are not the best in class by any means and if the have superior numbers, it is simply because they have the platform.

For example, Noman is almost 40 years old and he has been grinding in FC for 17 years. He should have played every home Test in the last 10 years.

Yasir Shah was on his way to 400+ Test scalps but his career ended when Pakistan left the UAE because PCB refused to provide supporting pitches in Pakistan.

Few years earlier, Pakistan had another veteran called Zulfiqar Babar who was almost identical to Noman, who took 500+ wickets in FC but only got to play a handful of Test matches.

These days, Sri Lanka have a behemoth SLA in P. Jayasuriya, who is as good as Jadeja if not better, but he does not have the support system to end up with the tally that Jadeja does.

People who say that one swallow doesn’t make a summer are missing the point. If Pakistan produce such pitches, their spinners will bowl them to victory 8/10 times.

That means that there is nothing wrong with Pakistan’s players but all the problems lie with the cricket board who are unable to provide the platform to allow the players to excel.

It is very frustrating from a Pakistani fan perspective to see PCB waste almost half a decade of Test cricket because of their pig headedness and refusal to accept that the key to success in home Test matches is to prepare pitches that turn.
 
Buffet said:
Only problem with such theories are,

Indian bowlers with 5 plus tests and 10 plus wickets in India in the last 15 years

View attachment 146890

...


All visiting bowlers with 5 plus tests and 10 plus wickets in India in the last 15 years
View attachment 146891
Click to expand...
Apart from Lyon, Pakistani spinners are better than all the spinners in this list. If they were to play in India, they would definitely bowl better than most of these bowlers in this list.
 
Mamoon said:
For the past decade, the Indian propaganda machine that promoted a bang average cricketer like Dhoni as a legend, a middling Test batsman like Kohli as a GOAT and a good fast bowler like Bumrah as a mixture of McGrath and Wasim Akram.

The same propaganda machine that drives all the popular narratives in contemporary cricket have also driven the narrative that Ashwin and Jadeja are spin bowling legends who would walk into most teams in history and only Warne and Muralitharan would be able to compete with them.

The reality is that all it took was one spin-assisted pitch for two spinners with absolutely no reputation and no recognition to completely dominate and pick up a 7 wicket haul and 8 wicket haul each.

At face value, Indian fans would tell you that the likes of Noman and Sajid wouldn’t even get into the Indian D team because they have so many superior spinners at their disposal and yet, these supposed nobodies have done exactly what Ashwin and Jadeja would have done to England on the same pitch.

India have been producing such pitches every year since 2013. If Sajid and Noman get to play 50+ Test matches at home on such pitches they would also end up with a massive tally of wickets at 22-23, replicating the contrived numbers of Ashwin and Jadeja that have created the perception that they are spin bowling legends.

This clearly goes to show that the success and legacy of those two Indian spinners are circumstantial and nothing to do with how good they are and everything to do with how much they have benefited from the nature of pitches.

In terms of skill and ability, they are no different than any spinner from Pakistan who been grinding in FC cricket but have not been allowed to play on spinning pitches coupled with the fact that PCB doesn’t arrange enough Tests in the first place.

There is no reason for Pakistani fans to look at Indian spinners with envy and wish they had similar bowlers in their arsenal. They already do, but you have not been using them.

I hope this is the beginning of a new chapter for Pakistan cricket at home and PCB recognizes the value of preparing spinning pitches at home and trusting your experienced spinners to do the job.

It might have taken 2 years and plenty of humiliating defeats but better late than never.
Click to expand...
There is merit in this discussion. However, the consistency at which they bamboozled batsmen is amazing. I understand the argument regarding pitches. I would not call Ashwin or Jadeja great spinners, they are good. Can't be compared to Warne, Murli, Saqlain or Kumble.
 
Technics 1210 said:
It is no big secret. If Pakistani players are offered the opportunity to play regular Tests, and in inducive conditions, then yes, their stats would be right up there with the so called greats of India who have cheesed their stats.

Indian cricket has relied on the decline of Pakistan cricket since 2009/10, cos had all the drama with Pakistan had not happened, Pakistan would have gone toe to toe with India at every level, just like CT17, and that too, in England.

So yeah the Indian propaganda on the back of Pak player absence, has resulted in a perception that India players are at some yoda-level - which we know is not true given India's 2 decades of lost ICC trophies.
Click to expand...
Pak has been useless in tests for a while. Nothing changes it. The level of delusional thinking here is so strong. And regarding cricket in general and ICC trophies - only 3 countries will win these for the next 10 years- ind aus eng.
 
Mamoon said:
We all know that Indians don’t like honest appraisals of their players. They are content as long as you buy into their self-created hype.

In some ways, the Indian cricket fans are like USA sports fans. They think the world revolves around them.

India have a lot of very good players and Ashwin and Jadeja are in that category as well. However, they are not the best in class by any means and if the have superior numbers, it is simply because they have the platform.

For example, Noman is almost 40 years old and he has been grinding in FC for 17 years. He should have played every home Test in the last 10 years.

Yasir Shah was on his way to 400+ Test scalps but his career ended when Pakistan left the UAE because PCB refused to provide supporting pitches in Pakistan.

Few years earlier, Pakistan had another veteran called Zulfiqar Babar who was almost identical to Noman, who took 500+ wickets in FC but only got to play a handful of Test matches.

These days, Sri Lanka have a behemoth SLA in P. Jayasuriya, who is as good as Jadeja if not better, but he does not have the support system to end up with the tally that Jadeja does.

People who say that one swallow doesn’t make a summer are missing the point. If Pakistan produce such pitches, their spinners will bowl them to victory 8/10 times.

That means that there is nothing wrong with Pakistan’s players but all the problems lie with the cricket board who are unable to provide the platform to allow the players to excel.

It is very frustrating from a Pakistani fan perspective to see PCB waste almost half a decade of Test cricket because of their pig headedness and refusal to accept that the key to success in home Test matches is to prepare pitches that turn.
Click to expand...
Super post. PCB is a defunct body. They have wasted many talents in all departments...
 
cricketkashmir said:
There is merit in this discussion. However, the consistency at which they bamboozled batsmen is amazing. I understand the argument regarding pitches. I would not call Ashwin or Jadeja great spinners, they are good. Can't be compared to Warne, Murli, Saqlain or Kumble.
Click to expand...
Your bias is showing. Other 3 yes but saqlain?? Lol. Pak fans aee everything through green tinted lenses and are blinded to reality. Ashwin will be 4th in line after those 3.
 
Mamoon said:
For example, Noman is almost 40 years old and he has been grinding in FC for 17 years. He should have played every home Test in the last 10 years.

These days, Sri Lanka have a behemoth SLA in P. Jayasuriya, who is as good as Jadeja if not better, but he does not have the support system to end up with the tally that Jadeja does.
Click to expand...
Noman Ali out bowled P Jayasuriya in Colombo Test 2022 that Pakistan won by an innings. Noman had figures of 7/70 and Jayasuriya had 2/194. Such big disparity on the same pitch and conditions.

One could argue that Noman with his experience is better than Jayasuriya. Jayasuriya averages 28 now and Noman averages 29 despite bowling on Pakistani roads in the past.

Noman has now played 16 test matches. 8 at home. 5 of which were on National highway if we're excluding two Tests against South Africa which were on pace friendly wickets.
 
Mamoon said:
Apart from Lyon, Pakistani spinners are better than all the spinners in this list. If they were to play in India, they would definitely bowl better than most of these bowlers in this list.
Click to expand...

It's possible that Pakistani spinners are better than all other visting bowlers in India in the last 15 years. A good theory.

We don't know that for a fact but what we know for a fact that the performance of visiting bowlers vs performance of Indian bowlers on exactly the same pitch. Gulf is just too wide. Pitch did not bridge that gap.

All the world class bowlers( pacers and spinners combined) have not been able to do well in India while guys like Bumrah, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja are averaging near 20.
 
Buffet said:
It's possible that Pakistani spinners are better than all other visting bowlers in India in the last 15 years. A good theory.

We don't know that for a fact but what we know for a fact that the performance of visiting bowlers vs performance of Indian bowlers on exactly the same pitch. Gulf is just too wide.

All the world class bowlers( pacers and spinners combined) have not been able to do well in India while guys like Bumrah, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja are averaging near 20.
Click to expand...
Quality of spin bowling outside Asia in the last 10 years or so has been very poor. Bowlers like Moeen Ali have been frontline spinners in Test cricket who is barely better than a part-time bowler. None of the teams who have toured India regularly in this period have had good enough spinners which has made Ashwin and Jadeja look better than they are.
 
One win after so many humiliations on a 9th day pitch against a depleted English side and Bhangra starts. Even Yuzi Chahal would have run riots on this surface leave Ash,Jaddu,Axar, Kuldeep aside.

Also a test match just concluded between Pakistan and England in Pakistan but somehow India and Indians are being discussed..I thought Indians were obsessed with Pakistan but time and again we see countless threads on India..India this, India that. Lol
 
cricketkashmir said:
Super post. PCB is a defunct body. They have wasted many talents in all departments...
Click to expand...
It needs to be professionalised as does the whole structure, we may then begin to catch up with the big boys.
 
Why is Anderson regarded as greater cricketer than Bhuvi?
.
It is the consistency with which he does it day in and day out which is what defines greatness.

In the same way, those spinners are good enough to provide occasional performances but if they can do it years after years and pick 400+ wickets or even 300+ wickets, they will be regarded as world class bowlers. Till then they are nothing bowlers.
 
By the way i don't remember when was the last time, two consecutive tests were played at the same venue and same surface within days. Talk about the doctoring and home advantage.
 
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