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Jacques Kallis' Test average is better than Sachin Tendulkar. Is he a better batsman?

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lipton

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Jacques Kallis Test Average is Better than Sachin. Is he better than Sachin in test arena?:sohail
 
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Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 145 246 38 11947 201* 57.43 26418 45.22 40 54 1315 86 166 0
 
stats are not everything although kallis deserves to be mentioned as one of the best of the current era
 
I believe Hundreds doesnt really mean anything when test cricket, only things that matter is MATCH WINNING KNOCKS!!!!
 
Kallis has been a terrific accumulator whereas Tendulkar has stood up against the bests and has held his own.
 
phir se vahi sab cheez,,,,,,,,,,,who is better inzmam or javed,,,,,,,,,tendulkar or lara,,,,,,tendulkar or kallis,,,,3-4 years ago tendulkar or ponting................

this is such a rubbish game
 
Sachin's average would have been a lot better if he had a chance to bat against indian bowling

Poor Sachin

Kallis average perhaps would have been a slightly lower , had he had to face south african bowling, Lucky Kallis

Who is better batsman is arguable, but with the contribution of Kallis with the ball, is he the better cricketer??
 
It should be interesting if we exclude Sachin's stats vs SA and Kallis stats Vs India and then compare
 
I want to see this analysis. Although I love both batsman and would give the edge here to sachin just because hes from the subcontinent and hes more aggressive in his batting (seems to me).
 
very close call between these 2. I will select the one who has played more crucial innings. Who is that?
 
Is Kallis better cricketer? Yes. Is Kallis best test batsman of this decade? Yes (Punter may argue) Is Kallis better batsman than SRT? No. Heck, he is not even better than Punter, Dravid, and Lara.
 
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lipton said:
Jacques Kallis Test Average is Better than Sachin. Is he better than Sachin in test arena?:sohail
Click to expand...

IMO they have played some good innings, and both have played a lot of pressure-off innings to inflate their stats.

But with Kallis you get an effective change bowler, and a top-line slip fielder as part of the package.
 
So greatness only on basis of batting avg?

Jayawardene and Samarweera avg more than Sir Viv,Ponting and Dravid?Are they better than them?

Kallis avgs 1 avg point better than Tendulkar.........But whats Kallis's avg againist Australia,England SL ?
 
s2k said:
So greatness only on basis of batting avg?

Jayawardene and Samarweera avg more than Sir Viv,Ponting and Dravid?Are they better than them?

Kallis avgs 1 avg point better than Tendulkar.........But whats Kallis's avg againist Australia,England SL ?
Click to expand...

138 Test matches and maintaining 57. Average Quite Remarkable:salman
 
lipton said:
Kallis is a Complete cricket, compare to Sachin only wants to Bat.
Click to expand...

Eh!! Does he need to bowl? He has bowled when required. Should I pull up his wickets against Pakistan? That last over of Hero Cup? That breakthroughs in Kolkata test! Who did the fielding for 181 tests and 453 international matches?
 
lipton said:
138 Test matches and maintaining 57. Average Quite Remarkable:salman
Click to expand...

Tendulkar has played 40 more matches.....thats almost 3-4 more years of test cricket........not too long ago Ponting avgd more than SRT.....where is he now?

You didnt answer............whats Kallis's avg againist AUS SL and ENG.....3 of the top 5 teams he played againist?
 
Among their contemporaries, in tests, for me it is:

Lara = Sachin > Ponting (best player of pull shot in modern cricket) > Dravid= Kallis (However I do not find him particularly exciting to watch)


RICKY PONTING - Best player of pull shot since Viv Richards.

[utube]w4u1PTk2al0[/utube]
 
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IMO Kallis alongside Ponting are the best batsmen in the world..

For me it goes.. Kallis, Ponting, Dravid, Tendulkar, Lara..
 
cricketworm said:
Is Kallis better cricketer? Yes. Is Kallis best test batsman of this decade? Yes (Punter may argue) Is Kallis better batsman than SRT? No. Heck, he is not even better than Punter, Dravid, and Lara.
Click to expand...

I even question that. How many world XIs does Kallis make ? Doesn't get an entry as a batsman or as an all rounder even when statistically he's up there.

It's because of the simple reason that World XIs consist of players that hold their own. Kallis doesn't. The end
 
freelance_cricketer said:
I even question that. How many world XIs does Kallis make ? Doesn't get an entry as a batsman or as an all rounder even when statistically he's up there.

It's because of the simple reason that World XIs consist of players that hold their own. Kallis doesn't. The end
Click to expand...

For this era, he doesn't have many who can challenge him for all rounder position. He will never be picked for World XI as a sole batsman or bowler in any era. Though his numbers as an all rounder are very good as Sir Sobers.

but when you make up World XI over all, you are right, there are many other contenders ahead of him.
 
s2k said:
So greatness only on basis of batting avg?

Jayawardene and Samarweera avg more than Sir Viv,Ponting and Dravid?Are they better than them?

Kallis avgs 1 avg point better than Tendulkar.........But whats Kallis's avg againist Australia,England SL ?
Click to expand...

Have u seen cricindias BQI analysis?

Kalliss average against the best is higher.....
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu is an average bowler bully,,,, so which test best players does he have a good record against.....

Warne aside.
Click to expand...

Tendulkar avgs a minimum of 40 againist every team he has ever played and in every country..........

Does Kallis has similar record?

Why doesnt Kallis even gets a mention among world's greatest batsmen when experts talk about them or pick a world 11?

Reason:Kallis avgs less than 35 againist 3 of the top 5 bowling attacks of his time......Enough said....
 
cricketworm said:
For this era, he doesn't have many who can challenge him for all rounder position. He will never be picked for World XI as a sole batsman or bowler in any era. Though his numbers as an all rounder are very good as Sir Sobers.

but when you make up World XI over all, you are right, there are many other contenders ahead of him.
Click to expand...

Never harmed a top team with his bowling , quite an over rated all rounder in last few years. You get to hear about his allround heroics only when he keeps achieving some unique runs-wickets statistical combo from time to time but not through actual allround performances against top teams.

Even Yuvraj for a few matches proved his worth in the last world as an all rounder. That's what you call all round performance. It happens on ground and you see it and you feel it like we all felt when Flintoff did it in Ashes. Kallis keeps doing it on paper
 
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MR__KHAN__JI said:
Have u seen cricindias BQI analysis?

Kalliss average against the best is higher.....
Click to expand...

LOL BQI analysis........

Kallis avgd 30 odd againist England.....and none of the bowlers made it to the BQI top spot.....

How many bowlers from the current ENgland team would make it into the BQI top tier?None..........still they gave Indians a harrowing time....does that mean Dravid's runs scored againist them will be lower than a Raina scoring the runs againist a Steyn led attack in India?Just coz Steyn has made it to the BQI top tier?
 
s2k said:
Tendulkar avgs a minimum of 40 againist every team he has ever played and in every country..........

Does Kallis has similar record?

Why doesnt Kallis even gets a mention among world's greatest batsmen when experts talk about them or pick a world 11?

Reason:Kallis avgs less than 35 againist 3 of the top 5 bowling attacks of his time......Enough said....
Click to expand...

Tendu stats are boosted by high scores against weak attacks of "strong" countries.

e.g have a look at tendus recrd against australia when mcgrath or SA when donald or Pak when waqar etc was in the attack.
 
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MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu stats are boosted by high scores against weak attacks of "strong" countries.

e.g have a look at tendus recrd against australia when mcgrath or SA when donald or Pak when waqar etc was in the attack.
Click to expand...

Dear Khan Ji relax. Don't want to fill up this thread with youtube videos and scorecards. You are insulting lot of bowlers here.
 
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MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu stats are boosted by high scores against weak attacks of "strong" countries.

e.g have a look at tendus recrd against australia when mcgrath or SA when donald or Pak when waqar etc was in the attack.
Click to expand...

It's funny when you say that in a Jaq Kallis thread :23:
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu stats are boosted by high scores against weak attacks of "strong" countries.

e.g have a look at tendus recrd against australia when mcgrath or SA when donald or Pak when waqar etc was in the attack.
Click to expand...

Please list out your strong attacks for a country.....

Tendulkar avgd 47-48 againist Ambrose and Walsh in WI

Scored centuries at Perth and Sydney againist Hughes and MCdermott when aged 17-18........has never had a Test series in Australia where he has failed to score a century.......his worst was in 2004....where he scored 240 in his last innings........A series where Mcgrath and Warne didnt play.I have not included likes of Gillespie and Lee and Johnson.

Avged 40 against Donald and Pollock and Ntini led SA...avgs 46...when Steyn(the best fast bowler in world today by some distance).

Debut againist a Pak team of Waqar Wasim Imran and Qadir....at age 16 scored 3 half centuries to avg 37.Didnt play another test againist them till 1999.....scored a 127 on his very 1st match againist Pakistan.....suffered a stress fracture at the back.....continued to play through with pain and fracture...failed in next 4 innings.
 
When has Kallis done anything even close to this? And SRT has produced quite a few dozens of these and is still doing.
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6iBhgeJ2KSE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



People talking about all round capabilities here, SRT at his fittest was even a lot more threatening bowler :23:
 
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If you guys call SRT selfish, Kallis is the king of selfish.

He's one batsman I can agree is unbelievably selfish with his batting. It's almost atrocious how he puts his own cause in front of the team's.

Terrific batsman, but he's lost his team quite a few matches because of his unwillingness to up the rate. Plus, the matches that could have been victories but became draws because of his batting.
 
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Having a better average doesn't mean he is a better batsmen but Kallis has been a better all round cricketer, one of the best all rounders to play the game.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Never harmed a top team with his bowling , quite an over rated all rounder in last few years. You get to hear about his alround heroics only when he keeps achieving some unique-wickets statistical combo from time to time but not through actual allrpund performances against top teams.

Even Yuvraj for a few matches proved his worth in the last world as an all rounder. That's what you call all round performance. It happens on ground and you see it and you feel it like we all felt when Flintoff did it in Ashes. Kallis keeps doing it on paper
Click to expand...

Kallis scored 8 centuries in 2010-2011. 4 against us. I understand the point you are trying to make. I was never thrilled by Kallis' any of his knocks. Only one that was good knock really made me go wohh was in capetown recently.

People don't remember Kallis' batting because it doesn't excite anyone. Only shots I have enjoyed was his 'standing tall' cover drive and slog sweep against spinners.

However, I have enjoyed his bowling in ODI in 90s, lately it has been crap or not enjoyable in ODIs either. He has not been consistent performer with with the bat till 2009-onwards. His bowling is no where near the level of SA bowling.

That's why you are right, his image as an all rounder just looks good on paper, heck he hasn't even bowled much lately for last many years.
 
Kallis avg excluding India and the minnows = 52.61 (117 matches)

Tendulkar avg excluding SA and the minnows = 55.48 (140 matches )

Kallis avg excluding minnows only = 54.75 (133 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding minnows only = 53.33 (165 matches)

Kallis avg excluding home games = 55.22 (68 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding home games = 55.74 (102 matches)

Kallis avg excluding home games + minnows = 51.09 (63 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding home games + minnows = 52.93 (91 matches)

Well there are the stats... discuss! :kallis :sachin
 
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I think the main stats to look at are the excluding home games and minnow ones and based on that Tendulkar would be a better batsman, as he averages higher than Kallis there.

:sachin
 
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:facepalm:

Sachinistas getting defensive again with the "Kallis is never picked in a world 11" nonsense.

The crux of the thread is not to attack SRT but to determine whether the calibre of a batsman can be measured on average alone, the answer is clearly no.

It should be duly noted, next time Sachinistas defend SRT using his average(s), this thread shall be cited.

:)
 
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Watsupdoc said:
Kallis avg excluding India and the minnows = 52.61 (117 matches)

Tendulkar avg excluding SA and the minnows = 55.48 (140 matches )

Kallis avg excluding minnows only = 54.75 (133 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding minnows only = 53.33 (165 matches)

Kallis avg excluding home games = 55.22 (68 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding home games = 55.74 (102 matches)

Kallis avg excluding home games + minnows = 51.09 (63 matches)

Tendlukar avg excluding home games + minnows = 52.93 (91 matches)

Well there are the stats... discuss! :kallis :sachin
Click to expand...

Kallis averages very low against SL, Aus and England like 20 runs per match low.
 
cricketworm said:
Kallis scored 8 centuries in 2010-2011. 4 against us. I understand the point you are trying to make. I was never thrilled by Kallis' any of his knocks. Only one that was good knock really made me go wohh was in capetown recently.

People don't remember Kallis' batting because it doesn't excite anyone. Only shots I have enjoyed was his 'standing tall' cover drive and slog sweep against spinners.

However, I have enjoyed his bowling in ODI in 90s, lately it has been crap or not enjoyable in ODIs either. He has not been consistent performer with with the bat till 2009-onwards. His bowling is no where near the level of SA bowling.

That's why you are right, his image as an all rounder just looks good on paper, heck he hasn't even bowled much lately for last many years.
Click to expand...
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9AsEsYtUPBQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu is an average bowler bully,,,, so which test best players does he have a good record against.....

Warne aside.
Click to expand...

Thanks a ton for enlightening us on that!

Now tell us why you wana set "Warne aside" ..thanks!

"I have always rated Kallis highly".. Please tell us names of bowlers Kallis dominated other than "average bowlers bulled by Sachin"..big big thanks again!!

To put cherry on your delicious cake, show us one signature inning from Kallis prior to India's tour..fyi Kallis has been an international cricketer for more than 15 years now!
 
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Namak_Halaal said:
:facepalm:

Sachinistas getting defensive again with the "Kallis is never picked in a world 11" nonsense.


:)
Click to expand...

How exactly?
The best of the best players are chosen for the world XIs so how is it not a strong arguement?
 
True.
I have seen quite a few former Cricket players' all time teams on tv, don't think Kallis featured in many ( none infact). Tendulkar was in everyone's.
His all round stats are comparable to Imran and Sobers but he's not even in the debate that always occurs about Imran and Sobers.
 
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Namak_Halaal said:
:facepalm:

Sachinistas getting defensive again with the "Kallis is never picked in a world 11" nonsense.

The crux of the thread is not to attack SRT but to determine whether the calibre of a batsman can be measured on average alone, the answer is clearly no.

It should be duly noted, next time Sachinistas defend SRT using his average(s), this thread shall be cited.

:)
Click to expand...

Dude where's your paper? Will it ever see light? Are you waiting for your "SRT"s 100th 100? :P
 
cricketworm said:
@Freelance_Cricketer I am looking for highlights for this match. If you come across, please share. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/236809.html this inning is rated really high by many journos.
Click to expand...
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/c-xgS0LM6LI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
That was superb as well but i prefer the ones at Centurian 2003, Lahore 2004, Gwalior 2007 :akhtar Nothing better than treating world's fastest bowler like a trundler

SRT well aware of his Century curse, always hits those match winning 90s against Pakistan :23:
 
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Kallis is the best batsmen in the world. Those who watch the game day in and day out would know that Kallis is Quality, no doubt that Sachin is as well. But Kallis is the ideal Batsman.

Solid Technique
Short ball played with ease
judges the swinging ball exceptionally
Eases pressure off his team
Can play at any pace
Adapts to the conditions of the game and pitch
 
With Kallizzz :28 you get two for the price of one - he's a solid top order batsman and can give you 20-odd overs of decent medium pace a day. The criticism of him in the past has always been that he tended to bat in a "bubble" - one of the reasons he was so difficult to get out, but also meant that he did not always change his style to suit the needs of the match. He appears to have addressed that issue in recent years, however.

Tendy of course is Tendy. He has scored runs all over the world against all attacks, although his temperament in the crunch has been (fairly or unfairly) questioned by fans and critics alike. He used to be a pretty decent bowler as well.

Since Tendy rarely bowls these days, I would probably have Kallizzz :28 in my side ahead of him. But I still rate Tendy as the better pure batsman.
 
Kallis ''flopped'' against the best side of his time
 
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emclub said:
Kallis ''flopped'' against the best side of his time
Click to expand...
And Ponting flopped against India, Sobers flopped against NZ, Dravid flopped against SA, etc. Doesn't prove anything.
 
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Jo_Don said:
Yeah he recently flopped against the #1 test team - that's why he scored a century through injury ;)
Click to expand...

india is a number 1 team which loses 4-0, 1 series later, imran farhat can hit them a hundred on 1 leg, kallis and pollock 2 great players have better records than most players in the history both flopped against aus esp. pollock
 
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freelance_cricketer said:
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/c-xgS0LM6LI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
That was superb as well but i prefer the ones at Centurian 2003, Lahore 2004, Gwalior 2007 :akhtar Nothing better than treating world's fastest bowler like a trundler

]SRT well aware of his Century curse, always hits those match winning 90s against Pakistan :23:
Click to expand...

hehehe

Argh! It's not even full highlights, but hats off that you even found this clip. I will wait for the full match, if someone uploads it. Ball was seaming/swinging like crazy. :asif and company were at their best with new ball.

My fav. test knocks are 169 against SA capetown and 136 against Pakistan. ODIs are just too many. Centurion is surely at the top.
 
Jo_Don said:
Your vote goes to mediocrity? What do you base it on? And please don't say that he won more matches - he only had one good Ashes series :)
Click to expand...

Flintoff was a mediocre all rounder?
 
cricketworm said:
hehehe

Argh! It's not even full highlights, but hats off that you even found this clip. I will wait for the full match, if someone uploads it. Ball was seaming/swinging like crazy. :asif and company were at their best with new ball.

My fav. test knocks are 169 against SA capetown and 136 against Pakistan. ODIs are just too many. Centurion is surely at the top.
Click to expand...

Nothing beats Centurion 2003 -_-
 
emclub said:
india is a number 1 team which loses 4-0, 1 series later, imran farhat can hit them a hundred on 1 leg, kallis and pollock 2 great players have better records than most players in the history both flopped against aus esp. pollock
Click to expand...

Please don't say anything against Pollock, he was the one of the finest of his era. Again i would like to let my fellow RSA PP'er know that i even rate Pollock higher as an allrounder than Kallis. It's not bias or anything man. Opinions all based on real match performances. Kallis the all rounder died a decade ago.
Anyone who bigs up Kallis as an all rounder needs to watch more cricket than net surfing
 
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Its amazing how the Indians come running with the best team crap, yet they ignore that same rule when we apply it to:


Pakistan in the 80s, when they were the only ones stopping West Indies.

Imran Khan.

Etc etc.



Its a really really EASY QUESTION.

Someone comes upto me and says, who do you want?

Only a bloody retard would chose Tendulker. Kallis has changed so so many games with his bowling. So many partnerships broken.

Batting = Kallis wins. The guy who batted half his career at number 3, vs the cowardly midget.. No thank you.


So why is anyone chosing Tendulker?
 
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I think Tendulkar is a better batsman (even averages suggest that), but overall Kallis is a better cricketer and brings more to the team.

So if I had to choose one between the two of them I'll choose Kallis in my team.
 
Jo_Don said:
And Ponting flopped against India, Sobers flopped against NZ, Dravid flopped against SA, etc. Doesn't prove anything.
Click to expand...

No they all prove something.
Dravid didn't enjoy the bounce and RSA fielders.
Ponting didn't enjoy our turning tracks.
And Kallis didn't enjoy the challenge posed by his time's finest team.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Bradman , Viv Richards, Lara, Hadlee, Benaud are all bunch of retards? Keem'em coming Genius :facepalm:
Click to expand...

Sure?

It seems we live in a world, where we pick batsmen/bowlers, and ignore the merit of their other cricketing skills.


They chose Lillee over Imran, because they didn't see Imran as a bowler, but an all rounder. When in fact, most would argue Imran was a better bowler, and 100x the batsman.

But you get it right?


All-rounders ARE PUNISHED for being total cricketers. Absolutely idiotic reasoning...genius.



Its like Central Defensive Midfielders in football not getting picked, because they know how to score goals and finish.

Absolutely absurd and irrational cricketing thinking has taken over :facepalm:
 
Jo_Don said:
Your vote goes to mediocrity? What do you base it on? And please don't say that he won more matches - he only had one good Ashes series :)
Click to expand...

Urban myth... Flintoff summer 2003 to winter 2005/6 was a classy and sometimes amazing test player, and carried on after that as a superb ODI player - quick 40s, 4-fers, catches and hat-tricks. Even in the 2008 and 2009 test summers he had some gargantuan moments. I am not his biggest fan these days and he deserves a lot of the criticism he receives, but he contributed a lot more than 'one' 'good' 'Ashes' series - it was a magnificent Ashes series by the way... The Kallis v Flintoff debate is separate and could go on long into the night, but thought I would step here in and defend the big Lancastrian for once... :P

Kallis v Tendulkar as batsmen... it's really close. I just about lean towards Tendulkar, because the point that Kallis faced lots of Indian bowling and zero South African bowling does have some strength.
 
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