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New Zealand v England | 3rd Test | Auckland | March 22-26, 2013

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Saqib S said:
Btw I know the pitches are flat but seriously. The conditions are overcast. Surely Anderson should have been getting wickets in bucket loads here.
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Or perhaps he is massively overrated?

Hobbits with a real chance of an upset here
 
He's about as good as Aussie bowlers at home to New Zealand in this series. Poor show from Anderson.
 
Yet another decent day for NZ. Happy to see Boult getting some early breakthrough for Kiwis (has huge potential this lad)
 
For England to take 9/190 after such a poor opening day was pretty good I thought. But the credit should actually not be spread so widely; we have Steven Finn to thank for this. He's a great lad - by far the least experienced of the quartet, and yet (as he did in Brisbane) the only one who worked out how to bowl on an unfriendly pitch. 4 wickets in 14 balls is a spell that only a good bowler is capable of - and before somebody says it was against the lower order, these days lower orders and tails are adding scores of runs, so a guy who can run through any section of a batting order is invaluable. That's four 5fers amongst some other 4fers and he's in his 20th Test, which is a promising start.

But our others bowlers should be flogged in private. Broad is intelligent but gets impatient, Anderson has looked in a negative state of mind all tour, and Panesar is just a complete tool who is neither skilled nor reliable nor bright enough to bowl without a partner. We miss Swann badly.

And congratulations to NZ for another ultimately decent day. Often when you think you're on top in Test cricket the other team will come back at you, that is normal, but how you respond is the most important thing. And those two massive late wickets have restored their superiority. They look favourites to win at the moment.
 
James said:
For England to take 9/190 after such a poor opening day was pretty good I thought. But the credit should actually not be spread so widely; we have Steven Finn to thank for this. He's a great lad - by far the least experienced of the quartet, and yet (as he did in Brisbane) the only one who worked out how to bowl on an unfriendly pitch. 4 wickets in 14 balls is a spell that only a good bowler is capable of - and before somebody says it was against the lower order, these days lower orders and tails are adding scores of runs, so a guy who can run through any section of a batting order is invaluable. That's four 5fers amongst some other 4fers and he's in his 20th Test, which is a promising start.

But our others bowlers should be flogged in private. Broad is intelligent but gets impatient, Anderson has looked in a negative state of mind all tour, and Panesar is just a complete tool who is neither skilled nor reliable nor bright enough to bowl without a partner. We miss Swann badly.

And congratulations to NZ for another ultimately decent day. Often when you think you're on top in Test cricket the other team will come back at you, that is normal, but how you respond is the most important thing. And those two massive late wickets have restored their superiority. They look favourites to win at the moment.
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I think England's batting is too strong to collapse twice on this pitch.
 
New Zealand will only win if we make them enforce the follow on. We'll make at least 300 on this wicket.

Agree though that Finn has bowled well today. His best day of the tour and Monty's been awful but no surprise.
 
Hm actually I would say the follow-on gives us a better chance of winning.
 
Yeah definitely. Basically we have 3 days to rescue a disastrous series.
 
I think it must be pre-ashes fever! But seriously i can't explain why England have struggled.
 
Random Aussie said:
I havent been following this mate, but why has it been disastrous, in your view?
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Because we displayed club-standard shot selection to get bowled out on the first day of the series for a pitiful score, which was put into its most brutal perspective when NZ practically trebled our total in response. Thankfully a few cloudbursts saved us from an upset.

The second Test swapped the roles around, but even when rain supposedly came to the rescue of Frodo, Bilbo and co we had only taken 2 second innings wickets for 150, a frankly diabolical effort with a large first innings lead to play with.

Cook in spite of his very useful hundred has looked distracted. India is usually such a hopeless space for us that he knew he would never be judged on it - to win while playing so well was a bonus for him. But in the eyes of the world, this year with its back-to-back Ashes actually matters, and I fear that he is struggling to cope with the pressure.

To be fair to Alistair he has been unable to conduct an operation from home soil yet, which will do plenty to settle his nerves and focus his mentality, and also the Aussies are hardly in great shape either - but something has just not felt right in this series. When we lost to Pakistan I kind of knew that we were going to lose to South Africa as well: beyond results, it's the manner of things that strike you.

The bowling has been worse yet. This is a lineup which in Swann's absence appears to have no constantly ticking cricket brain at its core - on this basis, far from being another overhyped English cricketer I would consider Graeme to be underrated. His immense skill and streetwise Middle England intelligence helps get these arrogant little boys into order.

Stuart Broad is undoubtedly a bright and talented guy but since his exit from a high-class private school has appeared to possess the maturity and grace under pressure of a 14 year-old, and James Anderson is a typical Burnley lad with all of the admirably feckless commitment in the world but not much between the ears, and this adds up to a career bowling average of 30 despite playing much of his cricket under clouds as a swing bowler. At the end of the day, a mediocre bowling record is mediocre. And don't even get me started on Monty Panesar, the spin bowler who just bowls the same delivery with the same flight at the same pace 120 times a day and thus appears to have learned absolutely nothing about Test cricket in seven years.

Sorry but it's supposed to be the second best side in the world versus the eighth best. We can take solace from the fact that South Africa only managed a 1-0 win from the same tour, but their superiority was notable throughout the series. This series however has looked worryingly balanced, perhaps even slightly in New Zealand's favour, and these facts have to be dealt with and addressed. I'd actually propose the idea that going on to lose the match would not only be what England deserves, it would be good for them.

All this talk of flat pitches being the ruination of our cricket is insolent and embarrassing when not only have we played pretty well on flat pitches in Australia and India, but more to the point our batting and bowling in New Zealand of all places has been so palpably poor. My feeling is that the England team failed to research the difference in both conditions compared to previous tours of NZ - there are few bowler-friendly pitches now - and personnel: the New Zealand team for the first time in 20 years looks fresh, unspoiled, confident, and dynamic.

At present I'm seeing a lot of negatives, but hopefully (win, lose or draw) a few more positives appear over the next three days. What we've seen from New Zealand has been good for the game of cricket, then, but it has also served England some harsh lessons which they need to take more seriously than they took the Hobbits in order to hold on to the Ashes.
 
Cheers James, thanks. It must be pretty disappointing that Broad just hasnt become the bowler he sometimes looks like he might be. Also, I guess credit to the Hobbits.
 
I'm personally battling against my more flippant instincts and trying to remember that this exact side recently won a Test series in India, which is something that very few touring sides have managed to do in the last two decades. There is quality to be found in the lineup. Also if we lose this match then we were missing two candidates for Most Valuable Player, a situation which would affect any side, in Swann and Pietersen.

So there is perspective and context around this to an extent - but I still say there's no excuse for losing a bloody Test series in New Zealand. They look like they want it more, so credit to them. Cricket is all mental.
 
You are right there would be no excuse to lose a test series to NZ, but I would find it hilarious :D
 
It's still surprising that English pacers average more than 30 despite bowling in swinging, cloudy conditions most of the times.
 
Kwremb said:
It's still surprising that English pacers average more than 30 despite bowling in swinging, cloudy conditions most of the times.
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Finn is just under 30 and Anderson is just above it but the average is going down. Broad is the disappointment.
 
Exceptional stuff from Boult at the end got a lot of swing showed that the conditions were not that bad.
I hope Boult continues like this Tomorrow, NZ should look to win this and should focus on winning only because they are in a very strong position.
 
Broad's average has come down from almost 40 at the start.
He's underachieved overall but at least has made the effort to think over his game and improve his performance.


Anderson meanwhile just has the same occasionally brilliant but often frustrating and eternally mediocre level of performance.
 
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Robert said:
Not as hilarious as we will find your upcoming 0-4 whitewash....
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I disagree, we expected to lose. You would have expected to beat the eight ranked team mate. But I expect a churlish response from you since you have been a humour free zone for the past few months.....
 
Tough work for England ahead. It's amazing how thin English batting looks when Cook doesn't scores.
 
Saqib S said:
I want NZ to win this. It will send some panic through the English camp just before their headline back to backs.
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You don't know the English mindset, then. We are too phlegmatic to panic. It will act as a boot in the backside.

Saqib S said:
Surely Anderson should have been getting wickets in bucket loads here.
Click to expand...

Curiously, he seems to take wickets only under clear blue skies such as Australia and India these days.

Random Aussie said:
Or perhaps he is massively overrated?
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I think Jimmy is carrying an injury. But you would expect him to swing the new ball in these conditions.

Broad has never been an English-style swing bowler - he cuts it about and can get some reverse. Finn is more like Bob Willis (though not as good yet) - tall, fast, accurate, getting bounce but no swing.

Maybe we should have picked the conventional swinger Onions.....


Anyway, both long-innings men are out, so Bell will probably fail, leaving three novices in Compo, Root and Bairstow. Matty will play a counterattacking 87, and I reckon Broad could get fifty here, so the follow-on will be avoided.

All a bit unedifying. What is is about the Hobbits that makes England forget how to play? I've seen it again and again.
 
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Losing 0-4 in India is pretty bad though :D

What I'd say about this whole thing is that it's kind of sad to see us both doing so poorly. The two countries which put cricket on the map are both getting totally shat on. lol
 
England need to pull level in the first innings. They need to make this into a one innings shoot out.I am not sure the BCs would put up a similar fight with the bat in the second dig. That has always been their problem.
 
Gunther said:
England need to pull level in the first innings. They need to make this into a one innings shoot out.I am not sure the BCs would put up a similar fight with the bat in the second dig. That has always been their problem.
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Apparently not in the second Test. Our bowlers were getting nowhere when the rain set in.
 
James said:
Apparently not in the second Test. Our bowlers were getting nowhere when the rain set in.
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As we witnessed last night, NZ tend to lose wickets in a heap. I am sure that 150/2 could quite easily have turned into a 300 a.o.

The bowling has not been great but Broad is feeling his way back in after a serious injury and Jimmy has had a bit of layoff.I was really hoping that Tredders got a game in this series. Outside the SC, he is our best bet to substitute/supplement Swanny.
 
Big day this for Belly and Bairstow. Bell is the most experienced guy left now and he needs to shephard the likes of Bair, Root for England to come close to the Kiwi total. It would be excellent if Compo can continue his fine run but that would be hoping too much I guess.
 
Random Aussie said:
I disagree, we expected to lose. You would have expected to beat the eight ranked team mate. But I expect a churlish response from you since you have been a humour free zone for the past few months.....
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You weren't expected to lose 4-0. Especially with Siddle in your attack.
 
Random Aussie said:
I disagree, we expected to lose. You would have expected to beat the eight ranked team mate. But I expect a churlish response from you since you have been a humour free zone for the past few months.....
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An Aussie give out stick to a Pom and calls it banter, but if a Pom banters back, the Aussie gets the hump. How many times have we seen this?

Hardly the ANZAC spirit mate!
 
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ali bubba said:
You weren't expected to lose 4-0. Especially with Siddle in your attack.
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Ah yes, the mighty Siddle, Pattinson and Starc. You've got Lindwall & Miller plus Lillee & Thommo right there. The cricket world quakes.
 
The problem for the Aussies is that the same XI never plays back-to-back Tests. We hear a lot of posturing and hype about their fast bowlers, and some of them are indeed very good, but when do they actually play?
 
A tricky question England might have to face upto in the coming months.. Do England need Cook the batsman more than the Cook the captain ? If his form does fade off due to the burden of captaincy, England will find themselves in a bit of pickle unfortunately. Who would replace him then ? Bell, Broad, Anderson..? The selectors would probably go for MattyP as he is considered "safe".
 
James said:
The problem for the Aussies is that the same XI never plays back-to-back Tests. We hear a lot of posturing and hype about their fast bowlers, and some of them are indeed very good, but when do they actually play?
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A fit Cummins could be a danger. Siddle, Stark..are no better than Southie and Boult.
 
Gunther said:
A tricky question England might have to face upto in the coming months.. Do England need Cook the batsman more than the Cook the captain ? If his form does fade off due to the burden of captaincy, England will find themselves in a bit of pickle unfortunately. Who would replace him then ? Bell, Broad, Anderson..? The selectors would probably go for MattyP as he is considered "safe".
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Premature statement. Cook's already got his eyes on the Ashes IMO, seems distracted, still got a ton in this series though.

After all as captain he only averages 75, only managed 6 centuries in 16 innings so far :D
 
Gunther said:
A tricky question England might have to face upto in the coming months.. Do England need Cook the batsman more than the Cook the captain ? If his form does fade off due to the burden of captaincy, England will find themselves in a bit of pickle unfortunately.
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Averages 49 in the ranks, 80 as captain.
 
James said:
Premature statement. Cook's already got his eyes on the Ashes IMO, seems distracted, still got a ton in this series though.

After all as captain he only averages 75, only managed 6 centuries in 16 innings so far :D
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But a single 100 and zero 50s from the last 6 innings worries me.
 
Kiwis on top but will be quite surprised if this doesn't end up as another draw. NZ has played some very sensible Test cricket this series deserves a positive result and a drawn series v Eng is not a bad outcome at all.
 
James said:
The problem for the Aussies is that the same XI never plays back-to-back Tests. We hear a lot of posturing and hype about their fast bowlers, and some of them are indeed very good, but when do they actually play?
Click to expand...

Sure, what they need is mediocre bowlers who play all the time - then they will rise to #2 in the world!
 
James said:
The problem for the Aussies is that the same XI never plays back-to-back Tests. We hear a lot of posturing and hype about their fast bowlers, and some of them are indeed very good, but when do they actually play?
Click to expand...

Rarely. There is no doubt individually we have some very good bowlers (we have six who average under 30 plus Watson in theory) but the problem is it is in theory, we never have all of them to pick from, we are always picking Siddle plus whoever is fit. And they are not really "fit" either.

We will need a second plane full of fast bowlers for the Ashes in England.
 
In any event, pace bowling is not our weakness and England have no edge there. But batting on the other hand.......
 
Random Aussie said:
we are always picking Siddle plus whoever is fit.
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I admire Siddle - bowling himself into the ground, grinding out fifties, He does channel the ANZAC spirit. You could imagine him crawling up the beach at Suvla and grenading a machine-gun nest despite having both legs shot off!
 
We need Tremlett back, would be a great asset in both England and Australia even if we only got him on the field in 6 out of the 10 Tests.
 
443 on the board and 50/2 with England's two best bats (as KP is not playing) back in the hut. Great stuff so far by NZ.
 
NZ failed capitalise in a winning position in 1st test.

This position not yet as strong as that one, but we'll see if they have improved...
 
wrongun said:
NZ failed capitalise in a winning position in 1st test.

This position not yet as strong as that one, but we'll see if they have improved...
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Think NZ might prefer it this way with Eng batting last hopefully chasing a big total
 
To be fair we'll have to play really badly to lose another 18 wickets on this pitch. But it could happen.
 
Random Aussie said:
Thats better Robert :D
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Having said that, I am quite a humour free zone. It's due to posting in Time Pass. Lots of very angry, very negative, very arrogant people there. You don't want that in your head, mate.
 
James said:
For England to take 9/190 after such a poor opening day was pretty good I thought. But the credit should actually not be spread so widely; we have Steven Finn to thank for this. He's a great lad - by far the least experienced of the quartet, and yet (as he did in Brisbane) the only one who worked out how to bowl on an unfriendly pitch. 4 wickets in 14 balls is a spell that only a good bowler is capable of - and before somebody says it was against the lower order, these days lower orders and tails are adding scores of runs, so a guy who can run through any section of a batting order is invaluable. That's four 5fers amongst some other 4fers and he's in his 20th Test, which is a promising start.

But our others bowlers should be flogged in private. Broad is intelligent but gets impatient, Anderson has looked in a negative state of mind all tour, and Panesar is just a complete tool who is neither skilled nor reliable nor bright enough to bowl without a partner. We miss Swann badly.

And congratulations to NZ for another ultimately decent day. Often when you think you're on top in Test cricket the other team will come back at you, that is normal, but how you respond is the most important thing. And those two massive late wickets have restored their superiority. They look favourites to win at the moment.
Click to expand...



James, did you watch those wickets? They threw it away. Finn was the worst pacer on show. He's the only bowler that doesn't seem to beat the bat, or put together spells of testing deliveries. And he has been terrible all tour. He has the same exact total of wickets as the other lads, and the worst average. He has the highest econ of all the bowlers from both sides. Your fanboyism forgets that people throw away their wickets, Finn benefitted from some dumb shots (2), a legside strangle (1), surprisingly decent but not great deliveries (2) and a tailender (1). A 6 for 125 (!) deserves a sigh of relief, not adulation.

All of our bowlers need to be flogged, including Finn. Anderson and Broad have been getting too angry, and too frustrated. I'm furious at Anderson for being so grumpy this tour and giving it up.

Monty doesn't deserve to be in the side unless Swann is willing to hold his hand. Even more now especially, since his counterpart is leading the charge on the wickets table.
 
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England didn't perform up to their potential they should have won this series.

Still 3 more days to go in this match. Lets see.
 
I don't recall Ryan Harris exactly ripping through our batsmen the last time he bowled against us in a test at the ashes. Likewise Siddle, who has improved since then admittedly and was the Aussies best bowler at the last ashes.

The young Aussies pace bowlers haven't played enough tests yet to see how good they really are. I've read the English attack is overrated, and it perhaps is, but so are these Aussie bowlers. Let's see them all play at least 25 tests each all over the world first and see what their averages are like.
 
A big day this for both the teams. If England bat well, all the pressure will be back on the Kiwis. Lose early wickets however and the game is going to be one long struggle.
 
ali bubba said:
I don't recall Ryan Harris exactly ripping through our batsmen the last time he bowled against us in a test at the ashes. Likewise Siddle, who has improved since then admittedly and was the Aussies best bowler at the last ashes.

The young Aussies pace bowlers haven't played enough tests yet to see how good they really are. I've read the English attack is overrated, and it perhaps is, but so are these Aussie bowlers. Let's see them all play at least 25 tests each all over the world first and see what their averages are like.
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Siddle is a bit ordinary. He is a lot like Monty, apparently not a great learner who still cannot consistently move the ball after years of playing intl. cricket.
 
Robert said:
Having said that, I am quite a humour free zone. It's due to posting in Time Pass. Lots of very angry, very negative, very arrogant people there. You don't want that in your head, mate.
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I hear you, I dont post there or read it for that reason. I just go in every now and again to flame KingKhanWC :D
 
Gunther said:
Siddle is a bit ordinary. He is a lot like Monty, apparently not a great learner who still cannot consistently move the ball after years of playing intl. cricket.
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Yep he is ordinary but he has 150 Test wickets at 28, which is better than your alleged spearhead, in every measurable way.

Today is a big test for NZ, they always have the ability to give teams a fright but usually never deliver on it. They need to put all their energy into rolling England cheaply and not lose concentration.

Having said that I think England will get away with a win or a draw here, i just cant believe in the Hobbits.
 
@RA No we do not take the years 2002-2007 into account when talkin about Jimmy.
 
Gunther said:
@RA No we do not take the years 2002-2007 into account when talkin about Jimmy.
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No of course you dont, because they dont suit the argument. I believe Siddle debuted at a pretty young age so it is relevant. An average is the objective measure of performance over time.
 
Compton has the right attitude to cut it at the top, albeit a bit slow for my liking the expression on his face at the loss of his wicket painted a picture of serious pain.
 
I thought when New Zealand were batting this was a flat pitch at 250/1 and now England are 63/3

I don't get it
 
Root and Bairstow both playing for their very immediate futures.
 
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