Reverse-Tebbit Test for British Indians

Robert

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23060582


"It is more than 20 years since the Conservative politician Norman Tebbit proposed his infamous cricket test. If you have forgotten what it was or are too young to remember, here is a quick reminder. He suggested in an interview with the Los Angeles Times that Britons of South Asian origin should be asked which cricket team they supported. If they did not follow England and were fans of India or Pakistan, he felt that it showed that they had failed to integrate into British society.

As a fanatical Indian fan I, like many others, was angry at his comments. He had failed to understand that many of us whose parents had come from South Asia to the UK have complex identities. We were proud to be British but also proud of our Indian roots. And cricket was where we could display that part of our identity. I remember my father, who forced us to watch the Queen's speech every Christmas, saying nobody is going to tell my family who they are going to support.

So it would be interesting to see what Lord Tebbit would have made of the make-up of the crowd at Edgbaston for the Champions Trophy final on Sunday. The stadium was full of Indian fans, most of whom were young and had Birmingham or London accents. Many had Indian flags wrapped around them and were chanting "India zindabad" - long live India. During the rain, some played a game called spot-the-England-fan as it was hard to find supporters of the home side in some of the stands. But this match also showed me that maybe a new cricket test is emerging. The first signs of it came when England's Ravi Bopara came on to bowl.

The 28-year-old was born in London. His parents settled in the capital after migrating from Punjab in India in the 1970s. For some Indian fans in the crowd, that meant that he should be playing for India. So as he ran in to bowl, a group of young Indian fans began a chant of "traitor, traitor, traitor". When he came out to bat there were pockets of fans booing and when he was dismissed there were huge celebrations in the ground.

While I was standing in the queue to get a drink, an elderly England fan turned to me and asked: "Why are you giving Bopara such a hard time?" Before I could answer, a young Indian fan replied: "We hate him as he plays for England. He is a disgrace." He then quickly rushed off back to the match. I mumbled to the England fan that not all Indian fans felt like that, and in fact the majority of us thought that he was a great role model and that we wanted to see more British Asians turning out for England. Confused, the England fan just smiled and walked back to his seat.

When I returned to mine, I noticed a Sikh fan wearing a turban a few rows ahead. He was not wearing an Indian top or carrying India's flag. He was proudly wearing an England shirt with the name of his favourite player, Monty Panesar, on the back. Every time England took a wicket he jumped up from his seat to cheer. That did not go down well with some of the Indian fans. About five moved to some seats closer to him and began chanting "spot the sell-out". Another shouted "coconut" - a derogatory term that means you are brown on the outside but white inside. On hearing the chants, the Sikh fan rushed angrily over to the Indian fans and started shouting at them. "How dare you describe me as a sell-out? I am proud of my culture and you have no right to have a go at me just because I am supporting England." At this stage a few stewards intervened and calmed the situation down.

After the match I walked up to the Sikh fan and apologised for the behaviour of those Indian fans. Still angry he told me that they didn't know anything about their culture or India, "and [yet] they call me a sell-out".

It reminded me of the anger I felt when Tebbit proposed his cricket test. Now more than 20 years on, a small minority of Indian fans seem to be trying to devise their own test. If you support England, in their eyes you have turned your back on your culture and heritage.

My answer to them is simple. Just watch the cricket."
 
A lot of the Indian PP'ers were trying to deflect this by saying that they weren't British indians in the stands but had flown in from overseas. That was obviously wrong as any British born Asian would be able to tell you with just a glance at the make up of the crowd. I said as much in the thread on TP.
 
I was at the final and the behaviour of Indian fans was terrible, even by the standards set by British Asian supporters.

Loutish behaviour I can generally tolerate, but some of the stuff I saw against England fans and the team was beyond the bounds of acceptability. I went with some friends - die-hard Indian fans - and their sentiments echo Rahul Tandon's (the author of this article). It got to the point where they stopped enjoying the cricket.

I've been to a lot of Pakistan matches, but on Sunday the Indians showed an uncomfortable level of outright hatred for England and Pakistan. I understand a lot of the troublemakers were drunk, but a lot of them weren't.
 
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It was the British ones that cause the issues at the ground in general.
 
I was at the final and the behaviour of Indian fans was terrible, even by the standards set by British Asian supporters.

Loutish behaviour I can generally tolerate, but some of the stuff I saw against England fans and the team was beyond the bounds of acceptability. I went with some friends - die-hard Indian fans - and their sentiments echo Rahul Tandon's (the author of this article). It got to the point where they stopped enjoying the cricket.

I've been to a lot of Pakistan matches, but on Sunday there was an uncomfortable level of outright hatred for England and Pakistan. I understand a lot of the troublemakers were drunk, but a lot of them weren't.

I've not felt so uncomfortable at a cricket match. Shame.
 
I was born in London to Jamaican/Anglo-Irish parentage but have no loyalties to England/UK. (Have you seen what they've done to the place in the last 50 years? *sigh*) In cricket I support the WI, and then probably Australia, though I'll admit that Pakistan is my favourite Asian team, and don't ever mind seeing them win (that might be why I read this forum, LOL). :imran
 
Absolutely classless from the British Indians.

As an Indian i feel ashamed.
 
Absolutely classless from the British Indians.

As an Indian i feel ashamed.
I don't think you should feel ashamed though. It's those that were acting stupid that should be held responsible - not those who just enjoy the cricket.
 
That's really sad. Why live here then?

what's so shameful about that? why must loyalty to any country be necessary? for me, having an ideology based on social liberalism is much more important than any form of patriotism or nationalism. borders are exactly what the name implies; they are barriers that segregate people.
 
Going by the reports in the newspaper or lack of it , it looked like a complete non-event.It was a silly thing to do , end of story.Theere wasn't any spite in it .
 
That's really sad. Why live here then?

I'd be interested to know how many Brits born/bred in India during the Raj would have supported the Indians against the English in sports. Each to their own I say, support who you want. I was at the final, none of this happened near me, so can't comment...
 
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I personally have no problems with any Indians in Australia supporting India.

But I do have problems if anyone thinks any Indians in Australia who support Australia are sellouts or traitors.

And ideally in two-three generations time their children and grandchildren will support Australia.

Hell, even my grandfather supported England.
 
what's so shameful about that? why must loyalty to any country be necessary? for me, having an ideology based on social liberalism is much more important than any form of patriotism or nationalism. borders are exactly what the name implies; they are barriers that segregate people.

Read what I posted - sad not shameful.

The UK is one of the most socially liberal of nations.

WW claims no loyalty to the UK despite being born here. Most of the first-generation Caribbeans I've met are more British than the British, so I wonder what went wrong for him here?
 
Disgraceful behaviour.

Tell 'em we thank them for their support, but personally, if I was a British citizen I'd support the England and Wales team.

And oh, try not to bring disgrace to Indians citizens, while you're 'supporting' India, if you do that I want no part of you.
 
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I'd be interested to know how many Brits born/bred in India during the Raj would have supported the Indians against the English in sports. Each to their own I say, support who you want. I was at the final, none of this happened near me, so can't comment...

I think you missed the point of the article.

Identity is complex and you can shout for whom you like, but calling an uncle a 'coconut' and booing a British Indian playing for England is out of order as far as I'm concerned.
 
I have already said this in the other thread which discussed this very issue "Poor Social Integration" is to be blamed for such loutish behavior from 2nd or 3rd generation migrants. This is mainly targeted at those who shout sell-outs and traitors to fellow British Indians (and Bpoara in particular) who support team England and wales.

I might be very wrong and even may be kinda generalizing in saying this but I feel Indians who migrated to North America are more quick in adapting to the culture (especially in supporting their country in sports arena) of their adopted nation than the ones in UK.
 
I have already said this in the other thread which discussed this very issue "Poor Social Integration" is to be blamed for such loutish behavior from 2nd or 3rd generation migrants. This is mainly targeted at those who shout sell-outs and traitors to fellow British Indians (and Bopara in particular) who support team England and wales.

I might be very wrong and even may be kinda generalizing in saying this but I feel Indians who migrate to North America are more quick in adapting to the culture (especially in supporting their country in sports arena) of their adopted nation than the ones in UK.

On the other hand the USA and Canada don't play India in any sports where India is competitive in.

Australia and England do. So there actually is a conflict of identity.
 
On the other hand the USA and Canada don't play India in any sports where India is competitive in.

Australia and England do. So there actually is a conflict of identity.

Valid point. But it does not give anyone to call a fellow citizen a sell-out or traitor. That is totally unacceptable behavior from anyone.
 
I thought it was quite sad hearing all the India Chants during the final that it felt like the game was in India, seriously the home side dont need to put with that....... I support Australia when ever they are playing against another side except India so I guess I am hypocritical here in a way but still its my 2 cents..
 
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I thought it was quite sad hearing all the India Chants during the final, seriously the home side dont need to put with that....... I support Australia when ever they are playing against another side except India so I guess I am hypocritical here in a way but still its my 2 cents..

Chanting is fine.
As an Australian I have no issue with any Indian (or Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Pom etc) living in Australia and supporting India (or Pakistan etc). That is fine, you can barrack for whoever you want.

If an Indian (Or Pakistani) etc wants to barrack for Australia then good for them and I'd hate if they're attacked for it.
 
A lot of the Indian PP'ers were trying to deflect this by saying that they weren't British indians in the stands but had flown in from overseas. That was obviously wrong as any British born Asian would be able to tell you with just a glance at the make up of the crowd. I said as much in the thread on TP.

WUT?!?! And you believed them? OK

There were regular booing for the English side, I calmed a few people down in my stand, asking them why exactly are you booing? Most couldn't give a response or just stood there dumbfounded, I responded saying, "So you just enjoy being an idiot". After a few of those booing calmed down.

In terms of chants, didn't hear anything bad, only one about the English was "Ravi is an Indian...."
 
Chanting is fine.
As an Australian I have no issue with any Indian (or Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Pom etc) living in Australia and supporting India (or Pakistan etc). That is fine, you can barrack for whoever you want.

If an Indian (Or Pakistani) etc wants to barrack for Australia then good for them and I'd hate if they're attacked for it.

I was raising the point on how the home side players wouldve felt when majority of the crowd is not supporting you; That would suck, I personally wouldve been very annoyed if I was on the field repping ENG...
 
Indians want India to win in a cricket game. However I do remember two British Indian teenagers changing their allegiance midway of the game while their dad was still supporting India.

As far as Bopara and Monty, they are perfect role models for our kids and we ensure that our kids know it. Even though we boo them on the field against India, They know that we adore them off the field or in any other game.
 
You should be able to support who ever you like, if it's a team that you have no affiliation so be it. For example my second team is Pakistan despite having Indian heritage, you can't imagine some of the hate I've gotten from doing so from Indian PP'ers lol
 
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I would be proudest dad if my child represents England in any discipline, Sports or Non sports. I dont even think of in my dreams for my child representing India. Not that I wont be proud of it. Its just that i dont want my child pursuing such an option.
 
Bopara did get a fair bit of stick and boos on Sunday and that is not right.... it is one thing to banter and chant and another thing to boo the man

In the pavilion stand where we were- we had a few "white" English fans and when Bops was doing it for England, we were having a bit of banter like "Come on Bopara do it for the old country" which I think is fine.

As for Bopara getting out and the noise, well thts bcoz the game turned on it's head then and India had a sniff again of winning and not coz Bopara the Asian got out.

Same with Bopara @ Lords in 2011 ODI- in the rain affected tie where Bopara played a late order cameo-I wanted him to be out for India to have a chance of winning and not coz hes an Asian...
 
I think you missed the point of the article.

Identity is complex and you can shout for whom you like, but calling an uncle a 'coconut' and booing a British Indian playing for England is out of order as far as I'm concerned.

My response wasn't to the article, it was to your comment regarding the West Indies fan.

I haven't condoned any of the above behaviour. In fact, I regularly post on a forum which is entirely made up of British born/bred India fans. This article has been discussed on there. Everyone on that forum has a different reason for supporting India over England, but all are valid. They all seem to condemn what's happened.

I will say that a lot of plastic glory-hunting Brits of Indian descent jumped on the India bandwagon during this tournament. A lot of them were at the final, little Cricket knowledge, plenty of trolling experience. I believe these were probably the sorts to blame.

On the flip-side, I witnessed England fans of Indian descent going OTT at Edgbaston, as if they had that extra bit to prove, and I haven't appreciated their comments on social media of late, attempting to dictate to me and my fellow India fans who we should support. Like I said in my previous post, each to their own...
 
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I was raising the point on how the home side players wouldve felt when majority of the crowd is not supporting you; That would suck, I personally wouldve been very annoyed if I was on the field repping ENG...

Mate then be annoyed at the England fans who either didnt bother turning up or didnt buy the tickets.

Really it is not like tickets were sold only at "Ram Paan Bhandar" or some desi cornershop- they were on the ICC website for all to purchase.

I personally bought mine on Sunday Morning at 12:30 am (the night before finals) on the ICC website, took the first coach out to Birmingham booking tickets at midnight and then in the night went back to the train station- not knowing how I gonna get home to London- but mate did make the EFFORT.

NO excuse for England fans for not turning up......
 
...

While I was standing in the queue to get a drink, an elderly England fan turned to me and asked: "Why are you giving Bopara such a hard time?" Before I could answer, a young Indian fan replied: "We hate him as he plays for England. He is a disgrace." He then quickly rushed off back to the match. I mumbled to the England fan that not all Indian fans felt like that, and in fact the majority of us thought that he was a great role model and that we wanted to see more British Asians turning out for England. Confused, the England fan just smiled and walked back to his seat.

..

This is cultural difference. I am certain that after the game today you ask the same question to any Indian, You will get the response like

We are proud of Bopara. He is role model for our kids.

BBC reporter has no clue about Asian mentality and cant figure out difference between a joke and a serious statement.
 
My response wasn't to the article, it was to your comment regarding the West Indies fan.

I haven't condoned any of the above behaviour. In fact, I regularly post on a forum which is entirely made up of British born/bred India fans. This article has been discussed on there. Everyone on that forum has a different reason for supporting India over England, but all are valid. They all seem to condemn what's happened.

I will say that a lot of plastic glory-hunting Brits of Indian descent jumped on the India bandwagon during this tournament. A lot of them were at the final, little Cricket knowledge, plenty of trolling experience. I believe these were probably the sorts to blame.

On the flip-side, I witnessed England fans of Indian descent going OTT at Edgbaston, as if they had that extra bit to prove, and I haven't appreciated their comments on social media of late, attempting to dictate to me and my fellow India fans who we should support. Like I said in my previous post, each to their own...

Fair enough. :)
 
Read about tebbit test today.

Also read about how in agra their is a kashmiri student held in jail because he supported pakistan furing the rrcent world t20.

I have often seen indiand fans here like [MENTION=2099]Cricket[/MENTION] joshila who support such acts by the state where supporting pakistan should land you in jail.

Does india have their own version of tebbit test, if so, if local indians fail in their indian version of tebbit test than should the same be applied on british indians?
 
Do some Football test instead of a Cricket one. They will find most British Indian's and Pakistanis support some British side at the Football. I support Liverpool more then the Pak Cricket side:klopp
 
Does india have their own version of tebbit test, if so, if local indians fail in their indian version of tebbit test than should the same be applied on british indians?

It is unfortunate that supporting a team can land you in jail.

Unfortunately cricket in India (or Pakistan) isn't devoid of politics. The government of the day believes in playing dirty politics when it comes to religion, so what you're seeing is not failure of 'Indians' rather a government that is trying to stay in power by creating non-existent issues so focus isn't on their actual failures (employment, economic policies etc.)
 
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