The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[RedwoodOriginal]

I'd put my money on MJF to finally win the big one this Saturday at Full Gear. Unless they have something bigger planned, I think that the time is right to put the strap on him and strap a rocket to his back. The guy has it all and it about damn time he got recognition for all the great work he has done in the last 3 years.

That said, I can't see myself exactly being disappointed if Mox ends up winning either.

 

[shaz619]

Finally MJF is world champion, it’s a long time coming and not knowing how long he will be there, it’s smart to get the most out of him now. AEW is must see TV with MJF as champion. First reigns don’t always go to plan but this is the right move and I trust MJF will make things work despite horrible booking.

As for MJF/Mox, it wasn’t CM Punk vs MJF or Mox vs CM Punk; but it was a decent match. When the action was in the ring it was great, but going through Mox’s 5 moves of doom (some which came surprisingly early) was unnecessary:

- Fighting on the outside in minutes: Check
- Big bump on the outside: Check
- Big bump on the apron: Check
- Big bump of the top rope: Check
- Dirty Deeds when the back is turned: Check

We are lucky we did not get any blading.

It’s a little shame because my expectations were high and I believe both are capable of much better. You can’t build a story when you plan around the big spots so early and especially when they don’t add much value. Not a bad match but it could have been better, it was clear Mox was taking the lead with the layout.

MJF’s selling was brilliant and his individual performance was great, he is also in amazing shape.

DMD v Saraya: The good news is that AEW have gained a world class / unique in-ring competitor but the bad news is that DMD has ZERO heat, she has been doing the same shtick for too long and the crowd don’t care for her remotely. As for the match itself, it was a great performance by both and Saraya barely lost a step, it was an insane showing considering the lay off and neck injury, you can already tell the mannerisms of her style brings a breath of fresh air to women's wrestling and her ability to sell will rarely be surpassed but I liked how she was confident enough to take the lead and still has a great awareness for how a match should be set up. Will need some shrewd booking and dance partners on a similar wavelength.

Didn’t watch anything else but heard about the Punk chants, this crowd is a bit off but the chants are still in poor taste and show how fickle these hipster smarks are. The positive is that if Punk somehow did return to the company, he’d be a monster heel.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Finally MJF is world champion, it’s a long time coming and not knowing how long he will be there, it’s smart to get the most out of him now. AEW is must see TV with MJF as champion. First reigns don’t always go to plan but this is the right move and I trust MJF will make things work despite horrible booking.

As for MJF/Mox, it wasn’t CM Punk vs MJF or Mox vs CM Punk; but it was a decent match. When the action was in the ring it was great, but going through Mox’s 5 moves of doom (some which came surprisingly early) was unnecessary:

- Fighting on the outside in minutes: Check
- Big bump on the outside: Check
- Big bump on the apron: Check
- Big bump of the top rope: Check
- Dirty Deeds when the back is turned: Check

We are lucky we did not get any blading.

It’s a little shame because my expectations were high and I believe both are capable of much better. You can’t build a story when you plan around the big spots so early and especially when they don’t add much value. Not a bad match but it could have been better, it was clear Mox was taking the lead with the layout.

MJF’s selling was brilliant and his individual performance was great, he is also in amazing shape.

DMD v Saraya: The good news is that AEW have gained a world class / unique in-ring competitor but the bad news is that DMD has ZERO heat, she has been doing the same shtick for too long and the crowd don’t care for her remotely. As for the match itself, it was a great performance by both and Saraya barely lost a step, it was an insane showing considering the lay off and neck injury, you can already tell the mannerisms of her style brings a breath of fresh air to women's wrestling and her ability to sell will rarely be surpassed but I liked how she was confident enough to take the lead and still has a great awareness for how a match should be set up. Will need some shrewd booking and dance partners on a similar wavelength.

Didn’t watch anything else but heard about the Punk chants, this crowd is a bit off but the chants are still in poor taste and show how fickle these hipster smarks are. The positive is that if Punk somehow did return to the company, he’d be a monster heel.

I'm gonna disagree with you on this one because I thought this was a great match. Not quite Punk v Mox and got a little too WWE at the end with the ref bumps, but overall I thought that this was an excellent match and easily the best one of the night. MJF was outstanding working babyface 99% of the match. Incredible selling. But that said, I thought Mox was pretty amazing here too. As great of a babyface he is, his work as a heel always stands out. He comes across as a genuinely vicious and unhinged guy when he works heel and knows how to rile up the crowd too. His psychology also feels much more on-point when he works heel. I look forward to the day he finally does turn. Because he has mad potential there.

Did not see the big twist coming eventhough I knew that MJF was not stupid enough to go babyface. Intrigued to see where this story goes.

Besides this match, Hayter v Storm, Jungle Boy v Luchasaurus, Elite v Death Triangle were all very good matches. The 4 way was entertaining too.

DMD v Saraya, I did not like. Yeah I agree with you that DMD does not have much heat. If anything, she has more fans cheering her than booing her. But for me, Saraya was the weak link here. Yeah I get that she is coming back from a 5 year lay-off but fact is, she looked really sluggish here and wasn't able to keep up with Britt's pace and that stopped this match from having any kind of rhythm.

Overall, a pretty good PPV.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] did you see MJF's appearance at the media scrum? its a thing of beauty

 

[shaz619]

I'm gonna disagree with you on this one because I thought this was a great match. Not quite Punk v Mox and got a little too WWE at the end with the ref bumps, but overall I thought that this was an excellent match and easily the best one of the night. MJF was outstanding working babyface 99% of the match. Incredible selling. But that said, I thought Mox was pretty amazing here too. As great of a babyface he is, his work as a heel always stands out. He comes across as a genuinely vicious and unhinged guy when he works heel and knows how to rile up the crowd too. His psychology also feels much more on-point when he works heel. I look forward to the day he finally does turn. Because he has mad potential there.

Did not see the big twist coming eventhough I knew that MJF was not stupid enough to go babyface. Intrigued to see where this story goes.

Besides this match, Hayter v Storm, Jungle Boy v Luchasaurus, Elite v Death Triangle were all very good matches. The 4 way was entertaining too.

DMD v Saraya, I did not like. Yeah I agree with you that DMD does not have much heat. If anything, she has more fans cheering her than booing her. But for me, Saraya was the weak link here. Yeah I get that she is coming back from a 5 year lay-off but fact is, she looked really sluggish here and wasn't able to keep up with Britt's pace and that stopped this match from having any kind of rhythm.

Overall, a pretty good PPV.

It may well have been considering the spot oriented matches on the rest of the card. For me it was average, but I upgrade it a bit because of the finish and the right guy going over at the right time. Mox does work better heel and can be great when he isn’t thinking too much about specific spots which are premeditated, it hurts the psychology of the match and I just feel MJF was the star here and made the most of an average layout and hot crowd. I had an inkling Regal was going to do something lol

I meant no heat as in no reaction as a face or heel, so flat, she is meant to be the divisions star but has become so one dimensional the audience has had enough to. The match was very cold. The women's division is quiet poor when DMD was the best possible opponent. Saraya will be a breath of fresh air in the ring, I look forward to her growth. I thought she was pretty good in the situation, in any case the onus is on her opponent after a lay off and Britt was exposed quiet badly. Maybe she will freshen things up but in wrestling heaven she has developed an ego.

Yeah that MJF presser was gold he has been dropping so many Punk references as of late who knows why, ended the presser quoting JC to lol

What did you make of the Punk chants and the EVP’s plugging it on some show of theirs ?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It may well have been considering the spot oriented matches on the rest of the card. For me it was average, but I upgrade it a bit because of the finish and the right guy going over at the right time. Mox does work better heel and can be great when he isn’t thinking too much about specific spots which are premeditated, it hurts the psychology of the match and I just feel MJF was the star here and made the most of an average layout and hot crowd. I had an inkling Regal was going to do something lol

I meant no heat as in no reaction as a face or heel, so flat, she is meant to be the divisions star but has become so one dimensional the audience has had enough to. The match was very cold. The women's division is quiet poor when DMD was the best possible opponent. Saraya will be a breath of fresh air in the ring, I look forward to her growth. I thought she was pretty good in the situation, in any case the onus is on her opponent after a lay off and Britt was exposed quiet badly. Maybe she will freshen things up but in wrestling heaven she has developed an ego.

Yeah that MJF presser was gold he has been dropping so many Punk references as of late who knows why, ended the presser quoting JC to lol

What did you make of the Punk chants and the EVP’s plugging it on some show of theirs ?

Haven't watched the show but it seemed pretty likely that Regal would turn and side with MJF. A face turn for your hottest heel couldn't have been that much illogical so it was looking pretty likely that some shenanigan would occur.

For me, Paige just gives too much unlikeable vibes regardless of how good she is in the ring. She is still quite a polarizing figure among the fans I think.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It may well have been considering the spot oriented matches on the rest of the card. For me it was average, but I upgrade it a bit because of the finish and the right guy going over at the right time. Mox does work better heel and can be great when he isn’t thinking too much about specific spots which are premeditated, it hurts the psychology of the match and I just feel MJF was the star here and made the most of an average layout and hot crowd. I had an inkling Regal was going to do something lol

I meant no heat as in no reaction as a face or heel, so flat, she is meant to be the divisions star but has become so one dimensional the audience has had enough to. The match was very cold. The women's division is quiet poor when DMD was the best possible opponent. Saraya will be a breath of fresh air in the ring, I look forward to her growth. I thought she was pretty good in the situation, in any case the onus is on her opponent after a lay off and Britt was exposed quiet badly. Maybe she will freshen things up but in wrestling heaven she has developed an ego.

Yeah that MJF presser was gold he has been dropping so many Punk references as of late who knows why, ended the presser quoting JC to lol

What did you make of the Punk chants and the EVP’s plugging it on some show of theirs ?

I keep hearing that MJF quoted Punk and Cornette in his presser or something. I don't know what he quoted and in what context cause I haven't ever followed Cornette. Can you guys explain a little?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It may well have been considering the spot oriented matches on the rest of the card. For me it was average, but I upgrade it a bit because of the finish and the right guy going over at the right time. Mox does work better heel and can be great when he isn’t thinking too much about specific spots which are premeditated, it hurts the psychology of the match and I just feel MJF was the star here and made the most of an average layout and hot crowd. I had an inkling Regal was going to do something lol

I meant no heat as in no reaction as a face or heel, so flat, she is meant to be the divisions star but has become so one dimensional the audience has had enough to. The match was very cold. The women's division is quiet poor when DMD was the best possible opponent. Saraya will be a breath of fresh air in the ring, I look forward to her growth. I thought she was pretty good in the situation, in any case the onus is on her opponent after a lay off and Britt was exposed quiet badly. Maybe she will freshen things up but in wrestling heaven she has developed an ego.

Yeah that MJF presser was gold he has been dropping so many Punk references as of late who knows why, ended the presser quoting JC to lol

What did you make of the Punk chants and the EVP’s plugging it on some show of theirs ?

Yup no doubt the right guy won. I think MJF should go on an absolute tear as Champion now and have (at the very least) a 250+ day reign. Basically as long as it takes for Wardlow to get to the main-event spot. I think there is some serious potential for some seriously great feuds here. MJF v Danielson, MJF v Eddie Kingston, MJF v Ricky Starks, MJF v Darby should definitely be revisited again just because of how freakin' incredible their last match was. Probably shouldn't waste a PPV on the empty headed dumbf**k. But he needs to be beaten as well. Also, Regal being the manager of MJF, the World Champion almost sounds too good to be true.

AEW's women's division is a joke. I have no idea why Tony keeps putting these garbage women's matches on TV every week that pretty much kill his ratings for the rest of the show. I mean I get the noble intentions. But fact is, nobody cares about these matches...they are never good...and they either kill the ratings or put them in a coma. I just don't see why he can't just not put women's matches some weeks. Because he and his company badly need good ratings.

As for Saraya, I don't think anything she has done in AEW so far has been good. From her clueless promos to that sluggish match last night...I don't think too much has clicked so far. But then again, her run has only just begun so I'm going to give her a chance to win me over.

I mean that is to be expected from this crowd of super marks. They are the most toxic fanbase in the history of wrestling and very, very fickle. One minute you're their hero, the next minute they are plotting your murder. This people don't deserve CM Punk. They deserve exactly what they've been cheering for since Day 1.

 

[shaz619]

Yup no doubt the right guy won. I think MJF should go on an absolute tear as Champion now and have (at the very least) a 250+ day reign. Basically as long as it takes for Wardlow to get to the main-event spot. I think there is some serious potential for some seriously great feuds here. MJF v Danielson, MJF v Eddie Kingston, MJF v Ricky Starks, MJF v Darby should definitely be revisited again just because of how freakin' incredible their last match was. Probably shouldn't waste a PPV on the empty headed dumbf**k. But he needs to be beaten as well. Also, Regal being the manager of MJF, the World Champion almost sounds too good to be true.

AEW's women's division is a joke. I have no idea why Tony keeps putting these garbage women's matches on TV every week that pretty much kill his ratings for the rest of the show. I mean I get the noble intentions. But fact is, nobody cares about these matches...they are never good...and they either kill the ratings or put them in a coma. I just don't see why he can't just not put women's matches some weeks. Because he and his company badly need good ratings.

As for Saraya, I don't think anything she has done in AEW so far has been good. From her clueless promos to that sluggish match last night...I don't think too much has clicked so far. But then again, her run has only just begun so I'm going to give her a chance to win me over.

I mean that is to be expected from this crowd of super marks. They are the most toxic fanbase in the history of wrestling and very, very fickle. One minute you're their hero, the next minute they are plotting your murder. This people don't deserve CM Punk. They deserve exactly what they've been cheering for since Day 1.

I wonder what will come of BCC now that Regal is aligned to MJF. Imo his first feud should be Danielson, that has $$$$ written all over it, the promos and ring stuff would be excellent. MJF with the gold will elevate everyone around him. Yes the empty head should ideally squashed, MJF should beat him with a low blow

The matches are just too cold and lack any sort of heat, their division is a good reflection of Tony “writing” the show and having no structure or a booking team. Toni Storm was a somebody in Japan and you got her shtick somewhat in NXT to, worse Saraya/Paige never received such negative feedback over a promo in the E and her return could have been made to feel like a bigger deal, especially from a career ending neck issue. I don’t know how they managed to fudge that, some stars really benefit from a script and good booking, Saraya is one of those. There is really no plan surrounding what do with the women and many talents simply wing it on whatever natural ability they have.

They are by far the worst bunch ever, am glad some are calling out their ** for using those chants on their show despite being EVP’s. Surely this isn’t a work? but these guys really are that stupid.

 

[shaz619]

I keep hearing that MJF quoted Punk and Cornette in his presser or something. I don't know what he quoted and in what context cause I haven't ever followed Cornette. Can you guys explain a little?

The presser was him basically mimicking Punk in some ways when he flipped and in prior weeks he has been using some Punk material on the mic.

At the end of the presser MJF said “Thank you, F you, and Bye!” which is a famous JC catchphrase now, the hipster marks didn’t even realise it was used on them lol

 

[shaz619]

Btw still no FTR

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I wonder what will come of BCC now that Regal is aligned to MJF. Imo his first feud should be Danielson, that has $$$$ written all over it, the promos and ring stuff would be excellent. MJF with the gold will elevate everyone around him. Yes the empty head should ideally squashed, MJF should beat him with a low blow

The matches are just too cold and lack any sort of heat, their division is a good reflection of Tony “writing” the show and having no structure or a booking team. Toni Storm was a somebody in Japan and you got her shtick somewhat in NXT to, worse Saraya/Paige never received such negative feedback over a promo in the E and her return could have been made to feel like a bigger deal, especially from a career ending neck issue. I don’t know how they managed to fudge that, some stars really benefit from a script and good booking, Saraya is one of those. There is really no plan surrounding what do with the women and many talents simply wing it on whatever natural ability they have.

They are by far the worst bunch ever, am glad some are calling out their ** for using those chants on their show despite being EVP’s. Surely this isn’t a work? but these guys really are that stupid.

As much as I loved the BCC, one thing I did not understand was why only Regal cut the promos and why all four of them were rarely ever seen in the ring together. It always struck me as more of a loose alliance of like-minded guys rather than a proper faction. With Regal out, I think Bryan in particular should get more promo time. And I agree with you. The first proper feud for MJF must be with Bryan...after his Winter Is Coming match (against Ricky Starks hopefully) that is. Not only does that feud make logical sense but they have a real opportunity to tell a great story there.

Also, it just struck me that the last shot they left us with on the go-home Dynamite was Mox and MJF standing face-to-face with Regal in the back. Whoever came up with that idea, bravo.

Oh yeah, at the the end of the day, I completely blame Tony for fudging up Saraya's return and her subsequent feud with Britt. And I get that wrestlers are empowered to go out there with their own material. But being the booker Tony should have known that the some of the promos Saraya delivered in the last few weeks were absolute heel promos that were never going to get her cheered. I mean you can't go out there and tell the fans that you previously wrestled in a bigger wrestling company, belittle the biggest female star in the company, talk about how you worked hard and spent years in the business, and then expect the people to cheer you. To my knowledge she has never been known as a great promo so yeah, she definitely should have been given a script and a proper direction of where this feud was supposed to go. Or if you wanted to go this route you could have brought her in as a heel. But whatever this is, ain't good.

Besides Britt and Jade, Jamie Hayter is probably the the only good thing about their division right now with any sort of upside, who is not only a good worker and someone with some size to her, but also someone who has managed to catch fire and get over on her own, despite being booked like crap...just as most of the other women are. But I somehow feel that its only a matter of time before she suffers the same fate as most of the others.

Well the EVPs (and the Bucks more than Omega) are just reveling in this. Not only have they gotten out of putting FTR over, who have had, what was supposed to be their banner year, completely derailed. But now they get to come back to a heroes welcome and live out their PWG fantasies by having a Best of 7 series against Death Triangle.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The presser was him basically mimicking Punk in some ways when he flipped and in prior weeks he has been using some Punk material on the mic.

At the end of the presser MJF said “Thank you, F you, and Bye!” which is a famous JC catchphrase now, the hipster marks didn’t even realise it was used on them lol

There was another reference the other day on Dynamite when he said something along the lines of "Jon, as you lay there hopefully in alot of pain I want you to know...''

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Btw still no FTR

I have some hope that FTR might be winning the belts soon just because of them coming face-to-face with The Acclaimed in recent weeks. But I feel like we might get that at the expense of babyface FTR. Because based on how over The Acclaimed are you will have to turn FTR heel.

But then again, based on how hot The Acclaimed are right now maybe Tony might not want to take the belts off them to begin with.

IMO the middle ground is delaying this feud till Revolution so you can give The Acclaimed some wins.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There was another reference the other day on Dynamite when he said something along the lines of "Jon, as you lay there hopefully in alot of pain I want you to know...''

Yes I got that one. Is he mocking Punk or just being witty?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

As much as I loved the BCC, one thing I did not understand was why only Regal cut the promos and why all four of them were rarely ever seen in the ring together. It always struck me as more of a loose alliance of like-minded guys rather than a proper faction. With Regal out, I think Bryan in particular should get more promo time. And I agree with you. The first proper feud for MJF must be with Bryan...after his Winter Is Coming match (against Ricky Starks hopefully) that is. Not only does that feud make logical sense but they have a real opportunity to tell a great story there.

Also, it just struck me that the last shot they left us with on the go-home Dynamite was Mox and MJF standing face-to-face with Regal in the back. Whoever came up with that idea, bravo.

Oh yeah, at the the end of the day, I completely blame Tony for fudging up Saraya's return and her subsequent feud with Britt. And I get that wrestlers are empowered to go out there with their own material. But being the booker Tony should have known that the some of the promos Saraya delivered in the last few weeks were absolute heel promos that were never going to get her cheered. I mean you can't go out there and tell the fans that you previously wrestled in a bigger wrestling company, belittle the biggest female star in the company, talk about how you worked hard and spent years in the business, and then expect the people to cheer you. To my knowledge she has never been known as a great promo so yeah, she definitely should have been given a script and a proper direction of where this feud was supposed to go. Or if you wanted to go this route you could have brought her in as a heel. But whatever this is, ain't good.

Besides Britt and Jade, Jamie Hayter is probably the the only good thing about their division right now with any sort of upside, who is not only a good worker and someone with some size to her, but also someone who has managed to catch fire and get over on her own, despite being booked like crap...just as most of the other women are. But I somehow feel that its only a matter of time before she suffers the same fate as most of the others.

Well the EVPs (and the Bucks more than Omega) are just reveling in this. Not only have they gotten out of putting FTR over, who have had, what was supposed to be their banner year, completely derailed. But now they get to come back to a heroes welcome and live out their PWG fantasies by having a Best of 7 series against Death Triangle.

I guess FTR are being punished by Tony and his buddies for siding with Punk.

I think Bryan should be the one to take the title off MJF. They need to do a lengthy reign of MJF and keep Bryan away. Create a sort of narrative that Bryan has lost his touch and struggling to beat mid carders. Then slowly build him up again to dethrone MJF.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes I got that one. Is he mocking Punk or just being witty?

Hard to tell. But I would go with the latter just because I think he is a guy who puts a lot of thought into what he says and does. Maybe he's channeling heel Punk from 2011 WWE. A villain who was told the brutally honest truth.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I guess FTR are being punished by Tony and his buddies for siding with Punk.

I think Bryan should be the one to take the title off MJF. They need to do a lengthy reign of MJF and keep Bryan away. Create a sort of narrative that Bryan has lost his touch and struggling to beat mid carders. Then slowly build him up again to dethrone MJF.

Yeah I would be down with that. I think there has to be a Bryan Danielson World title reign down the line. Because as one of the most major stars in the company you gotta put the strap on him and some point and see if he can use his name value to elevate this company business-wise. You could even have MJF win this feud and revisit it later with Bryan coming out on top. I certainly won't be complaining no matter how many times these two wrestle because I know the matches and story-telling will be incredible.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I guess FTR are being punished by Tony and his buddies for siding with Punk.

I think Bryan should be the one to take the title off MJF. They need to do a lengthy reign of MJF and keep Bryan away. Create a sort of narrative that Bryan has lost his touch and struggling to beat mid carders. Then slowly build him up again to dethrone MJF.

No I think Tony is just too much of a little b**ch to do what's right. He is someone who can be very easily manipulated (especially by his friends) which makes him a highly unsuitable person for this job. Because only that can explain him not having The Bucks put FTR over for all the belts at All Out...a match that was so obvious that everyone from the fans to the Bucks' buddy Meltzer thought that was what they were going to book for the PPV.

I mean its not like they couldn't have delayed Omega's return a few weeks. But fact is, they are threatened by FTR. They know FTR is a better tag team in every conceivable way which is why they dropped the belts to a tag team that wasn't even a real tag team: Swerve and Lee, and then ran as far away from the tag division as possible so that they wouldn't have to give us the one tag team match that we all wanted to see.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

No I think Tony is just too much of a little b**ch to do what's right. He is someone who can be very easily manipulated (especially by his friends) which makes him a highly unsuitable person for this job. Because only that can explain him not having The Bucks put FTR over for all the belts at All Out...a match that was so obvious that everyone from the fans to the Bucks' buddy Meltzer thought that was what they were going to book for the PPV.

I mean its not like they couldn't have delayed Omega's return a few weeks. But fact is, they are threatened by FTR. They know FTR is a better tag team in every conceivable way which is why they dropped the belts to a tag team that wasn't even a real tag team: Swerve and Lee, and then ran as far away from the tag division as possible so that they wouldn't have to give us the one tag team match that we all wanted to see.

Tony is an AH. As simple as that. Highly unprofessional and believes himself to be much much better than he actually is. Those who sing his praises get perks and stuff. I doubt he even knows what is right cause being a mark, he simply believes what he thinks is the only correct thing.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah I would be down with that. I think there has to be a Bryan Danielson World title reign down the line. Because as one of the most major stars in the company you gotta put the strap on him and some point and see if he can use his name value to elevate this company business-wise. You could even have MJF win this feud and revisit it later with Bryan coming out on top. I certainly won't be complaining no matter how many times these two wrestle because I know the matches and story-telling will be incredible.

BCC has gone off the rails somewhat IMO with their neverending feud with JAS. They have actually diluted Bryan to an extent as well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

BCC has gone off the rails somewhat IMO with their neverending feud with JAS. They have actually diluted Bryan to an extent as well.

Yeah I have noticed how everyone and everything Jericho touches turns to s**t. Look where Eddie Kingston was at the beginning of the year and where he is now. At the beginning of the year he was genuinely over coming off that feud with Punk and beloved by the fans. He even beat Jericho clean at Revolution. Now, he has become a non-factor...buried 6 ft. under and jobbing to Ethan Page. As much as Tony dropped the ball on his booking, its that Jericho feud which made him worse off than he was coming in. And he never got his win back after that atrocious Barbed Wire garbage match either.

Pretty much the same applies to MJF, who somehow managed to survive that year-long feud that did him very little favors. And he survived that feud just because he is MJF.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah I have noticed how everyone and everything Jericho touches turns to s**t. Look where Eddie Kingston was at the beginning of the year and where he is now. At the beginning of the year he was genuinely over coming off that feud with Punk and beloved by the fans. He even beat Jericho clean at Revolution. Now, he has become a non-factor...buried 6 ft. under and jobbing to Ethan Page. As much as Tony dropped the ball on his booking, its that Jericho feud which made him worse off than he was coming in. And he never got his win back after that atrocious Barbed Wire garbage match either.

Pretty much the same applies to MJF, who somehow managed to survive that year-long feud that did him very little favors. And he survived that feud just because he is MJF.

Think that backstage stuff with Sammy hurt Kingston more.

But that JAS BCC feud was dragged for way too long.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think that backstage stuff with Sammy hurt Kingston more.

But that JAS BCC feud was dragged for way too long.

If that was the reason he was held back then Tony is a total p***k. Because Sammy has been involved in even more backstage issues than Kingston. And with more than one person. Same goes for Tony's EVPs and the empty-headed dumbf**k, but it does not seem like any of them suffered because of their actions.

Bro its still going on.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

If that was the reason he was held back then Tony is a total p***k. Because Sammy has been involved in even more backstage issues than Kingston. And with more than one person. Same goes for Tony's EVPs and the empty-headed dumbf**k, but it does not seem like any of them suffered because of their actions.

Bro its still going on.

Sammy is in the good books because of his closeness with Jericho and this Kliq gets way more preferential treatment than others. Don't know there's another reason for keeping Kingston away. Same is the case with FTR.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sammy is in the good books because of his closeness with Jericho and this Kliq gets way more preferential treatment than others. Don't know there's another reason for keeping Kingston away. Same is the case with FTR.

Yeah that seems to be a running theme too. If you are in the Bucks' clique or Jericho's clique, no one can touch you no matter what you do. It's actually kinda amazing how spineless Tony becomes when his friends start pulling his strings.

I don't think there is any doubt about who convinced Tony to wash his hands of Punk either.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah that seems to be a running theme too. If you are in the Bucks' clique or Jericho's clique, no one can touch you no matter what you do. It's actually kinda amazing how spineless Tony becomes when his friends start pulling his strings.

I don't think there is any doubt about who convinced Tony to wash his hands of Punk either.

Although I do think how Punk went about all of that in the scrum wasn't good, it's pretty clear that this Elite kliq (which now includes Jericho as well) were pretty insecure about themselves. And tony is simply a puppet. He just likes people to keep praising him and get anything done.

Kenny used to be a very good worker, but now whatever he does alongside his bucks is so cringe and preposterous. Seems like they are all manchilds who like to stay in their own geek circle patting each other's backs.

Think money wasn't the only deal why Cody chose to leave AEW. Being surrounded by such imbeciles doesn't give off good energy.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Okay. So I didn't even know Wargames was happening today when I woke up.

Just got some time and finished watching it now. So here's my review.

1. Women's Wargames match: Was a good laid out match with very little botches. But the storylines moving into it weren't really good enough to elevate the stipulation especially for the fans who haven't watched any wargames match before. There was no point of having Yim and Cross in the match and it actually lengthened the match and decreased it's quality. Apart from that, Dakota Kai, Io and Alexa were the biggest stars of the match. Great for them to have some spotlight on them in presence of Becky, Bayley, Bianca etc. Rhea was presented very well too. Becky for some reason isn't really connecting with the crowd like she was leading into the pandemic. And she seems to have gotten quite skinny as well.

2. Balor vs AJ : A brilliant match something that was expected from the two wizards. A Mania worthy match. Feels like they are going to have atleast 2 more singles matches and will further amp up the energy in their upcoming matches (cause the feud has been pretty lackluster frankly)

3. Rousey/Shotzi: Crap match, Shotzi is pathetic, Rousey doesn't look interested in working. Shayna is bland. So is Raquel.

4. Seth vs Lashley vs Theory: Brilliant match with a surprising result. Keeping me interested as to where the feud is really heading to. I am guessing it will be Theory vs Rollins and Lashley will resume feuding with Brock. But Theory very much held his own here and didn't have to be carried. Proper triple threat wrestling match.

5. Men's Wargames: One of the best matches this year. The best way to familiarize Wargames stipulation with the casuals (much better than that UE vs Sanity vs Raiders/Strong). Will get the two negatives out of the way first. One was the obvious microphone, wrestlers were getting heard talking to each other before their spots. No.2 Made Drew feel like an afterthought once again. There was no point in having him in the match and face Bloodline so soon. Drew has basically been feuding with both Bloodline and Kross at the same time for last 6 months now.
Now the positives. Making Roman look like an absolute badass heel. Pete Dunne getting to show his chops, Sheamus getting good reaction. The best: Sami Zayn and KO dynamic and the whole Sami element here. Surpassed Roman here as the biggest star of the match. Perfect acting(Sami/KO are Taker/Kane of this era). Even as a heel, Sami is becoming the biggest face in the company right now. Perfect match. But I will expect Bloodline to coldly betray Sami around Rumble time.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] would like to hear your reviews. I put more value in your views and reviews rather than looking at the star ratings or weird expert marks on YT who consider themselves to be pro wrestling vets.

 

[shaz619]

Did you guys watch Survivor Series yet? not tagging in case of spoilers.

I watched the two War Games matches only.

Womens: I wouldn’t say this was special and I prefer the womens Takeover War Games matches to this, but I’d say it was a solid opener, everyone got their stuff in, no ridiculous spots or botches. Everyone was professional and I thought it was a great start to the show. For me the stand out performer was Rhea, she can really work and we know she is special between the ropes, but as of late her character work has been outstanding and she is beyond her years in the business. A genuine second coming of Chyna in some ways.

Mens: The past Takeover War Games matches were certainly a bit more gritty with some insane spots, but honestly from a storytelling and drama perspective, this was the best and most enjoyable for me. This main event and the pay off at the end was Wrestlemania main event worthy. I feel the match started off fine and the drama built around the tension between Jey and Sami was fantastic, the entry of KO took the match to another level, Solo Sikoa looked mighty impressive once again and gave me some great memories of Umaga. The finishing stretch was outstanding and all involved deserve an academy for their mannerisms and expressions. Cole was brilliant during commentary and really sold the storyline so well.

 

[shaz619]

Can’t wait for Cody Rhodes in next years War Games hopefully

 

[shaz619]

My final 5 for the Royal Rumble:

Kevin Owens

Sami Zayn

Jey Uso

Cody Rhodes

Seth Rollins

Bahhh Gawwwd!!!! that would be great

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Can’t wait for Cody Rhodes in next years War Games hopefully

I wrote my review up there. Check it out in case you've seen the show.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

My final 5 for the Royal Rumble:

Kevin Owens

Sami Zayn

Jey Uso

Cody Rhodes

Seth Rollins

Bahhh Gawwwd!!!! that would be great

It's usually the final 4 or final 6 that they start to acknowledge.

My last 6 would be.

1. Cody
2. Seth
3. Edge
4. KO
5. Sami
6. Randy/Cena/Drew

Regarding last 4
1. Cody
2. KO
3. Sami
4. Seth

But if we believe for the Roman-Rock deal to have been made already, then don't see a point of Cody winning the Rumble. or even doing the EC match. Rock doesn't need to win Rumble to challenge Roman. And if Rock is going after Roman, then Cody winning the championship would have no meaning. Cause there's just one title for which they will be doing Royal Rumble and EC. And for Dwayne, he doesn't need to feature in any and would make both PPVs redundant.

On the other hand, segments between Dwayne and Sami would be gold.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

On the other hand, don't think WWE are going to get a feud ender of Edge vs Balor at Mania. Although a clean 20 min match would smash.But seriously that feud has been amongst the worst of recent times.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Don't see AJ going for the title as long as Heyman is there with the Bloodline knowing how much AJ hates Paul.

 

[shaz619]

I forgot to add that I went back to watch the AJ/Balor match, it seemed to miss me that this was on. These two have outstanding chemistry and it was must see when you know they are having another singles match, this was a very technical and psychological match, it complimented the first match they had nicely and was a little more refreshing with the baby v heel dynamic, I liked the work from Styles on Balor’s leg and also Balor’s work on AJ’s upper back, for once this work was used greatly in the match and it was a nice touch using each others movesets trying to one up the other given the personal nature of the feud, the reversals were great, they didn’t over do the near falls and the finish was nice, it feels like forever since a baby face went over clean against a heel and it feels even longer since AJ went over on PPV. AJ still got it man, he is just as athletic, he seems to defy his age and the guy just needs the right opponent to keep him motivated and he will produce the goods. Balor has adapted do well as a heel, it shows in his work and you have to admire that. Pleased for both, what a world class effort.

 

[shaz619]

Okay. So I didn't even know Wargames was happening today when I woke up.

Just got some time and finished watching it now. So here's my review.

1. Women's Wargames match: Was a good laid out match with very little botches. But the storylines moving into it weren't really good enough to elevate the stipulation especially for the fans who haven't watched any wargames match before. There was no point of having Yim and Cross in the match and it actually lengthened the match and decreased it's quality. Apart from that, Dakota Kai, Io and Alexa were the biggest stars of the match. Great for them to have some spotlight on them in presence of Becky, Bayley, Bianca etc. Rhea was presented very well too. Becky for some reason isn't really connecting with the crowd like she was leading into the pandemic. And she seems to have gotten quite skinny as well.

2. Balor vs AJ : A brilliant match something that was expected from the two wizards. A Mania worthy match. Feels like they are going to have atleast 2 more singles matches and will further amp up the energy in their upcoming matches (cause the feud has been pretty lackluster frankly)

3. Rousey/Shotzi: Crap match, Shotzi is pathetic, Rousey doesn't look interested in working. Shayna is bland. So is Raquel.

4. Seth vs Lashley vs Theory: Brilliant match with a surprising result. Keeping me interested as to where the feud is really heading to. I am guessing it will be Theory vs Rollins and Lashley will resume feuding with Brock. But Theory very much held his own here and didn't have to be carried. Proper triple threat wrestling match.

5. Men's Wargames: One of the best matches this year. The best way to familiarize Wargames stipulation with the casuals (much better than that UE vs Sanity vs Raiders/Strong). Will get the two negatives out of the way first. One was the obvious microphone, wrestlers were getting heard talking to each other before their spots. No.2 Made Drew feel like an afterthought once again. There was no point in having him in the match and face Bloodline so soon. Drew has basically been feuding with both Bloodline and Kross at the same time for last 6 months now.
Now the positives. Making Roman look like an absolute badass heel. Pete Dunne getting to show his chops, Sheamus getting good reaction. The best: Sami Zayn and KO dynamic and the whole Sami element here. Surpassed Roman here as the biggest star of the match. Perfect acting(Sami/KO are Taker/Kane of this era). Even as a heel, Sami is becoming the biggest face in the company right now. Perfect match. But I will expect Bloodline to coldly betray Sami around Rumble time.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] would like to hear your reviews. I put more value in your views and reviews rather than looking at the star ratings or weird expert marks on YT who consider themselves to be pro wrestling vets.

I watched just three matches on the show I tend to have an inkling for what is worth watching generally, no longer a spring chicken who watches entire PPV’s sadly. But I totally agree with your review on the War Games matches and Balor/AJ.

I agree with you on Drew but at this point it didn’t bother me because I am numb to how awful Drew is booked these days, on the plus side he didn’t take the fall and while KO did, it made sense for him to take the hit.

Storylines haven’t been all that apart from the bloodline/Sami/Jey/KO shtick but they really delivered on the main event and AJ/Balor match, these two matches imo must see, forget the rest.

I didn’t see the triple threat, was it compelling?

They could have added Mustafa Ali to it and allowed him to shine after all the burials each week, what’s the pay off to that?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I watched just three matches on the show I tend to have an inkling for what is worth watching generally, no longer a spring chicken who watches entire PPVÂ’s sadly. But I totally agree with your review on the War Games matches and Balor/AJ.

I agree with you on Drew but at this point it didnÂ’t bother me because I am numb to how awful Drew is booked these days, on the plus side he didnÂ’t take the fall and while KO did, it made sense for him to take the hit.

Storylines havenÂ’t been all that apart from the bloodline/Sami/Jey/KO shtick but they really delivered on the main event and AJ/Balor match, these two matches imo must see, forget the rest.

I didnÂ’t see the triple threat, was it compelling?

They could have added Mustafa Ali to it and allowed him to shine after all the burials each week, whatÂ’s the pay off to that?

Yes the triple threat was brilliant. A fast paced match. Better than women's wargames match.

Don't know what's the point of giving Theory the US Title when Seth's reign had barely started.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I forgot to add that I went back to watch the AJ/Balor match, it seemed to miss me that this was on. These two have outstanding chemistry and it was must see when you know they are having another singles match, this was a very technical and psychological match, it complimented the first match they had nicely and was a little more refreshing with the baby v heel dynamic, I liked the work from Styles on Balor’s leg and also Balor’s work on AJ’s upper back, for once this work was used greatly in the match and it was a nice touch using each others movesets trying to one up the other given the personal nature of the feud, the reversals were great, they didn’t over do the near falls and the finish was nice, it feels like forever since a baby face went over clean against a heel and it feels even longer since AJ went over on PPV. AJ still got it man, he is just as athletic, he seems to defy his age and the guy just needs the right opponent to keep him motivated and he will produce the goods. Balor has adapted do well as a heel, it shows in his work and you have to admire that. Pleased for both, what a world class effort.

Both are technically great and put in ring psychology at work in their majority of matches. Seem to have a lot of respect for each other as well. AJ has always called Balor the leader even though AJ has far more influence to get things done in WWE.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Okay. So I didn't even know Wargames was happening today when I woke up.

Just got some time and finished watching it now. So here's my review.

1. Women's Wargames match: Was a good laid out match with very little botches. But the storylines moving into it weren't really good enough to elevate the stipulation especially for the fans who haven't watched any wargames match before. There was no point of having Yim and Cross in the match and it actually lengthened the match and decreased it's quality. Apart from that, Dakota Kai, Io and Alexa were the biggest stars of the match. Great for them to have some spotlight on them in presence of Becky, Bayley, Bianca etc. Rhea was presented very well too. Becky for some reason isn't really connecting with the crowd like she was leading into the pandemic. And she seems to have gotten quite skinny as well.

2. Balor vs AJ : A brilliant match something that was expected from the two wizards. A Mania worthy match. Feels like they are going to have atleast 2 more singles matches and will further amp up the energy in their upcoming matches (cause the feud has been pretty lackluster frankly)

3. Rousey/Shotzi: Crap match, Shotzi is pathetic, Rousey doesn't look interested in working. Shayna is bland. So is Raquel.

4. Seth vs Lashley vs Theory: Brilliant match with a surprising result. Keeping me interested as to where the feud is really heading to. I am guessing it will be Theory vs Rollins and Lashley will resume feuding with Brock. But Theory very much held his own here and didn't have to be carried. Proper triple threat wrestling match.

5. Men's Wargames: One of the best matches this year. The best way to familiarize Wargames stipulation with the casuals (much better than that UE vs Sanity vs Raiders/Strong). Will get the two negatives out of the way first. One was the obvious microphone, wrestlers were getting heard talking to each other before their spots. No.2 Made Drew feel like an afterthought once again. There was no point in having him in the match and face Bloodline so soon. Drew has basically been feuding with both Bloodline and Kross at the same time for last 6 months now.
Now the positives. Making Roman look like an absolute badass heel. Pete Dunne getting to show his chops, Sheamus getting good reaction. The best: Sami Zayn and KO dynamic and the whole Sami element here. Surpassed Roman here as the biggest star of the match. Perfect acting(Sami/KO are Taker/Kane of this era). Even as a heel, Sami is becoming the biggest face in the company right now. Perfect match. But I will expect Bloodline to coldly betray Sami around Rumble time.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] would like to hear your reviews. I put more value in your views and reviews rather than looking at the star ratings or weird expert marks on YT who consider themselves to be pro wrestling vets.

I feel like all three of us have very similar thoughts on this one.

Women's War Games Match was kinda meh. Too many weapons and spots. There wasn't enough story here to put together a compelling match and you could tell they were trying to do certain things to just grab your attention. I'm not a fan of having two WarGames matches on the same show just because one is happening. Ditto for Elimination Chamber and HIAC. It takes away from the special feel of these matches. (2/5)

Balor v AJ was really good. These two could probably have a believable match in their sleep. Not quite up to the level of their 2017 TLC match which was just incredible but still very good. (3.5/5)

Rousey v Shotzi was garbage. Not going to waste any time talking about it.

Rollins v Lashley v Theory: This was maybe one of the greatest triple threat matches I have ever seen and a case-study in how to do these types of matches. So much creativity on show here…a break-neck pace, and all three guys came off looking like a million bucks by the end because all three had their strengths put over really well here. Gotta hand it to the competitors and whoever put this match together, because there were barely any moments here that laughed in the face of logic where one guy is lying outside the ring for 2 minutes…waiting for the next spot.

I think as just a wrestling match this was maybe the best match on the show and easily one of the very best of the year. If you take story into account then the main-event was definitely better. And I really liked the finish aswell which was both creative and surprising. (4.75/5)

Men’s WarGames: First things first, the logic was completely out of whack here. The babyface team actually had the advantage and got the heat on the heels which was very weird. WarGames has a fairly simple match structure. It’s designed to give the heels the advantage. So I don’t know what the thinking behind that was. Because eventhough Sami is a de-facto babyface, I don’t like the idea of designing a match where the crowd would cheer for the heels organically. Which is what happened here as well when the Brawling Brutes were getting the heat on Sami and the Usos. That said, it was still a great match that picked up big-time once KO got in. Like the women’s match it also had weapons, but it didn’t feel like the match was relying on the weapons because the story was very compelling. (4.75/5)

All in all, it was a great match with a great finish. The lack of blood was a major issue but of the modern WarGames matches this was probably the best. In the all-time pantheon I’d say it's a toss up between Team nWo vs. Team WCW from FallBrawl ‘96 and Sting’s Squadron v Dangerous Alliance from WrestleWar ‘91.

Can’t wait to see where this story goes. I feel like I have a distinct idea of where it is going just by watching this match but let’s see.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

With everything that we have already seen. Here's how I would book this story going forward:


- KO goes after Roman and his belts, we get a match at the Royal Rumble where the Usos are banned from ring-side because they were the reason KO couldn't beat Roman last time. But instead, its Sami who interferes and costs KO the match and the belts this time.

- Sami thinks he is in good with The Bloodline and then suddenly he gets the rug pulled from underneath his feet when he least expects it. The Bloodline turns on him and beats the living s**t out of him. I would probably do this the night after the Royal Rumble or at a moment when you, as a viewer think that Sami is in tight with The Bloodline and there is no way they could possibly turn on him now after everything he has done for them. It should be something similar to Evolution turning on Randy Orton or KO turning on Chris Jericho. There should be an element of shock and surprise.

- After suffering a hellacious beating at the hands of The Bloodline, Sami is out for a month or close to it, until he suddenly makes his return on SD! to a monster pop when The Bloodline are putting a beating on one or two babyfaces. He cleans house and sets up a match with Roman at Elimination Chamber in his hometown of Montreal, of all places and boy oh boy would I LOVE to see that match. Because if they do that match in Montreal (where the PPV is scheduled to be) I think it has the potential to be something truly special.

- Despite putting in a heck of a performance at Elimination Chamber though and nearly pulling off an upset, Sami loses which inevitably leads to another beating from The Bloodline...mainly, The Usos, until KO's music hits and he comes out to make the save and set up a tag title match with The Usos at WrestleMania.

KO and Sami win the belts at WrestleMania in what I'm sure will be a spectacular match and Sami finally learns that he does not need the acceptance of The Bloodline. He is already beloved by the fans and he has a brother (KO) who will stand by him through thick and thin....no matter how many wars and ups and downs they go through.
[MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what do you guys think?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

With everything that we have already seen. Here's how I would book this story going forward:


- KO goes after Roman and his belts, we get a match at the Royal Rumble where the Usos are banned from ring-side because they were the reason KO couldn't beat Roman last time. But instead, its Sami who interferes and costs KO the match and the belts this time.

- Sami thinks he is in good with The Bloodline and then suddenly he gets the rug pulled from underneath his feet when he least expects it. The Bloodline turns on him and beats the living s**t out of him. I would probably do this the night after the Royal Rumble or at a moment when you, as a viewer think that Sami is in tight with The Bloodline and there is no way they could possibly turn on him now after everything he has done for them. It should be something similar to Evolution turning on Randy Orton or KO turning on Chris Jericho. There should be an element of shock and surprise.

- After suffering a hellacious beating at the hands of The Bloodline, Sami is out for a month or close to it, until he suddenly makes his return on SD! to a monster pop when The Bloodline are putting a beating on one or two babyfaces. He cleans house and sets up a match with Roman at Elimination Chamber in his hometown of Montreal, of all places and boy oh boy would I LOVE to see that match. Because if they do that match in Montreal (where the PPV is scheduled to be) I think it has the potential to be something truly special.

- Despite putting in a heck of a performance at Elimination Chamber though and nearly pulling off an upset, Sami loses which inevitably leads to another beating from The Bloodline...mainly, The Usos, until KO's music hits and he comes out to make the save and set up a tag title match with The Usos at WrestleMania.

KO and Sami win the belts at WrestleMania in what I'm sure will be a spectacular match and Sami finally learns that he does not need the acceptance of The Bloodline. He is already beloved by the fans and he has a brother (KO) who will stand by him through thick and thin....no matter how many wars and ups and downs they go through.

[MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what do you guys think?

I don't know man, looks like Sheamus will get the match against Roman before KO considering how the story is progressing. But I'd like that betrayal to happen at a perfect time when we least expect it to. Evolution turning on Randy wasn't done that well IMO. And KO turning on Jericho wasn't that brutal beatdown.
I expect Trips to tell these slow burners quite well. He is extremely good with such stuff as seen in NXT.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I feel like all three of us have very similar thoughts on this one.

Women's War Games Match was kinda meh. Too many weapons and spots. There wasn't enough story here to put together a compelling match and you could tell they were trying to do certain things to just grab your attention. I'm not a fan of having two WarGames matches on the same show just because one is happening. Ditto for Elimination Chamber and HIAC. It takes away from the special feel of these matches. (2/5)

Balor v AJ was really good. These two could probably have a believable match in their sleep. Not quite up to the level of their 2017 TLC match which was just incredible but still very good. (3.5/5)

Rousey v Shotzi was garbage. Not going to waste any time talking about it.

Rollins v Lashley v Theory: This was maybe one of the greatest triple threat matches I have ever seen and a case-study in how to do these types of matches. So much creativity on show here…a break-neck pace, and all three guys came off looking like a million bucks by the end because all three had their strengths put over really well here. Gotta hand it to the competitors and whoever put this match together, because there were barely any moments here that laughed in the face of logic where one guy is lying outside the ring for 2 minutes…waiting for the next spot.

I think as just a wrestling match this was maybe the best match on the show and easily one of the very best of the year. If you take story into account then the main-event was definitely better. And I really liked the finish aswell which was both creative and surprising. (4.75/5)

Men’s WarGames: First things first, the logic was completely out of whack here. The babyface team actually had the advantage and got the heat on the heels which was very weird. WarGames has a fairly simple match structure. It’s designed to give the heels the advantage. So I don’t know what the thinking behind that was. Because eventhough Sami is a de-facto babyface, I don’t like the idea of designing a match where the crowd would cheer for the heels organically. Which is what happened here as well when the Brawling Brutes were getting the heat on Sami and the Usos. That said, it was still a great match that picked up big-time once KO got in. Like the women’s match it also had weapons, but it didn’t feel like the match was relying on the weapons because the story was very compelling. (4.75/5)

All in all, it was a great match with a great finish. The lack of blood was a major issue but of the modern WarGames matches this was probably the best. In the all-time pantheon I’d say it's a toss up between Team nWo vs. Team WCW from FallBrawl ‘96 and Sting’s Squadron v Dangerous Alliance from WrestleWar ‘91.

Can’t wait to see where this story goes. I feel like I have a distinct idea of where it is going just by watching this match but let’s see.

Actually the heel not getting the advantage did well to present Roman as an absolute heel monster in the Brock mould. Someone who doesn't need odds in his favor. Actually made him look much stronger than how he did in his Big Dog run beating Taker and Lesnar etc. I still have reservations about Ridge Holland though. Not as complete as Pete Dunne. Very much in Sikoa mode.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Actually the heel not getting the advantage did well to present Roman as an absolute heel monster in the Brock mould. Someone who doesn't need odds in his favor. Actually made him look much stronger than how he did in his Big Dog run beating Taker and Lesnar etc. I still have reservations about Ridge Holland though. Not as complete as Pete Dunne. Very much in Sikoa mode.

Yeah but structurally and logically the match did not make alot of sense for the most part. And I go back to the point of the match when the Brutes were getting the heat on the Usos and Zayn. The crowd should not have been cheering for the top heel faction to fight back against the benevolent babyfaces in that moment.

Yeah but I don't really see Roman as the monster heel type. A monster heel for me is not someone who is in a faction. He's someone who just comes out on TV and kills someone every week. Most of the matches Roman has won in his 2 year run as champion have been due to cheating or The Bloodline interfering. And that's how it should be. A heel should cheat to win. I think there were other ways that they could have ensured that Roman was in the match for as little as possible. Had he come out second last he would have been in the match for only 5 minutes more.

Its interesting you make that comparison because although both Ridge and Solo are very green, I think the two are world's apart in terms of potential. Ridge for me is very meh and doesn't offer anything that gives you the indication that he could be anything good or great. Solo though, despite having a very basic move-set (much like Ridge) and little to no promo ability (his entire gimmick is that he's the big, mean enforcer) comes off like a massive potential future star. And that's all down to his look, presentation, facial expressions and the way he moves in the ring, which is actually very reminiscent of his late cousin Umaga.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't know man, looks like Sheamus will get the match against Roman before KO considering how the story is progressing. But I'd like that betrayal to happen at a perfect time when we least expect it to. Evolution turning on Randy wasn't done that well IMO. And KO turning on Jericho wasn't that brutal beatdown.
I expect Trips to tell these slow burners quite well. He is extremely good with such stuff as seen in NXT.

Really? Because I thought they made it very clear over the past week that KO was next in-line. First, he laid out Roman on SD!, then he came out on RAW and said that the only reason he was a part of this match was Roman Reigns. And then in the match KO was about to pin Roman until Sami inserted himself into the equation. Even after the match was over, Roman went over and glanced at him.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't know man, looks like Sheamus will get the match against Roman before KO considering how the story is progressing. But I'd like that betrayal to happen at a perfect time when we least expect it to. Evolution turning on Randy wasn't done that well IMO. And KO turning on Jericho wasn't that brutal beatdown.
I expect Trips to tell these slow burners quite well. He is extremely good with such stuff as seen in NXT.

Considering that there is no PPV between now and late January, I can definitely see them doing Sheamus v Reigns on an episode of SD! since they have teased that match too. But for a big show like Royal Rumble, KO v Reigns is more of a big money match and also one which they can use to tie-in their Sami Zayn-Bloodline storyline.

 

[shaz619]

Actually the heel not getting the advantage did well to present Roman as an absolute heel monster in the Brock mould. Someone who doesn't need odds in his favor. Actually made him look much stronger than how he did in his Big Dog run beating Taker and Lesnar etc. I still have reservations about Ridge Holland though. Not as complete as Pete Dunne. Very much in Sikoa mode.

Yeah but structurally and logically the match did not make alot of sense for the most part. And I go back to the point of the match when the Brutes were getting the heat on the Usos and Zayn. The crowd should not have been cheering for the top heel faction to fight back against the benevolent babyfaces in that moment.

Yeah but I don't really see Roman as the monster heel type. A monster heel for me is not someone who is in a faction. He's someone who just comes out on TV and kills someone every week. Most of the matches Roman has won in his 2 year run as champion have been due to cheating or The Bloodline interfering. And that's how it should be. A heel should cheat to win. I think there were other ways that they could have ensured that Roman was in the match for as little as possible. Had he come out second last he would have been in the match for only 5 minutes more.

Its interesting you make that comparison because although both Ridge and Solo are very green, I think the two are world's apart in terms of potential. Ridge for me is very meh and doesn't offer anything that gives you the indication that he could be anything good or great. Solo though, despite having a very basic move-set (much like Ridge) and little to no promo ability (his entire gimmick is that he's the big, mean enforcer) comes off like a massive potential future star. And that's all down to his look, presentation, facial expressions and the way he moves in the ring, which is actually very reminiscent of his late cousin Umaga.

In this era the heel and baby dynamic is thrown out the window, it happened in the past but I think it is a lot more frequent now. The fans and how fickle they are have a lot to do with it and short attention spans in general. With spot matches, I rarely take them seriously. But the story was really over which helped the match massively and I agree with Bunny on how Roman was presented, it’s possible they did that to present him as a strong heel, and his mannerisms really made the most of that situation, biggest star in wrestling.

I would never compare these matches to the classic War Games encounters tbh they are forever GOATED, but this was the best out of the ones they have done under the WWE umbrella imo

 

[shaz619]

With everything that we have already seen. Here's how I would book this story going forward:


- KO goes after Roman and his belts, we get a match at the Royal Rumble where the Usos are banned from ring-side because they were the reason KO couldn't beat Roman last time. But instead, its Sami who interferes and costs KO the match and the belts this time.

- Sami thinks he is in good with The Bloodline and then suddenly he gets the rug pulled from underneath his feet when he least expects it. The Bloodline turns on him and beats the living s**t out of him. I would probably do this the night after the Royal Rumble or at a moment when you, as a viewer think that Sami is in tight with The Bloodline and there is no way they could possibly turn on him now after everything he has done for them. It should be something similar to Evolution turning on Randy Orton or KO turning on Chris Jericho. There should be an element of shock and surprise.

- After suffering a hellacious beating at the hands of The Bloodline, Sami is out for a month or close to it, until he suddenly makes his return on SD! to a monster pop when The Bloodline are putting a beating on one or two babyfaces. He cleans house and sets up a match with Roman at Elimination Chamber in his hometown of Montreal, of all places and boy oh boy would I LOVE to see that match. Because if they do that match in Montreal (where the PPV is scheduled to be) I think it has the potential to be something truly special.

- Despite putting in a heck of a performance at Elimination Chamber though and nearly pulling off an upset, Sami loses which inevitably leads to another beating from The Bloodline...mainly, The Usos, until KO's music hits and he comes out to make the save and set up a tag title match with The Usos at WrestleMania.

KO and Sami win the belts at WrestleMania in what I'm sure will be a spectacular match and Sami finally learns that he does not need the acceptance of The Bloodline. He is already beloved by the fans and he has a brother (KO) who will stand by him through thick and thin....no matter how many wars and ups and downs they go through.

[MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what do you guys think?

I wouldn’t mind that, it’s a compelling narrative. We are in unique territory where creatively there are so many possibilities and the outcome is not a foregone conclusion, pro-wrestling 101

While watching the match I was thinking how KO is Hunter’s guy and that it may not be too long before he is champion again. And I saw a dirt sheet which suggested that Reigns/KO is being considered for Mania? not sure how true but wouldn’t surprise me.

The nepotism and conflict of interest is emphatic. This is similar to Misbah being on the panel which fired Mickey Arther except worse. Huntdeep and his boys are running the show and pushing their favourites with no accountability, it doesn’t concern me whether it’s working or not creatively but it amuses me that most fans are fine with this but take the moral high ground with other issues in wrestling, e.g. F U Punk and whatever else

 

[shaz619]

That’s high praise for the triple threat, I might check it out if it stacks up against Unbreakable 2005 and WM 20? or maybe it’s more in the mould of Lesnar/Cena/Rollins

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That’s high praise for the triple threat, I might check it out if it stacks up against Unbreakable 2005 and WM 20? or maybe it’s more in the mould of Lesnar/Cena/Rollins

No I won't say it was as good as former two matches.
A bit more like Lesnar/Cena/Rollins. It's a good fast paced match with almost no botches. It's just 3 guys beating the hell out of each other at high octane. I wouldn't put it anywhere among the best triple threat matches of all time though.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I wouldn’t mind that, it’s a compelling narrative. We are in unique territory where creatively there are so many possibilities and the outcome is not a foregone conclusion, pro-wrestling 101

While watching the match I was thinking how KO is Hunter’s guy and that it may not be too long before he is champion again. And I saw a dirt sheet which suggested that Reigns/KO is being considered for Mania? not sure how true but wouldn’t surprise me.

The nepotism and conflict of interest is emphatic. This is similar to Misbah being on the panel which fired Mickey Arther except worse. Huntdeep and his boys are running the show and pushing their favourites with no accountability, it doesn’t concern me whether it’s working or not creatively but it amuses me that most fans are fine with this but take the moral high ground with other issues in wrestling, e.g. F U Punk and whatever else

Yes, there is nepotism clearly. I think the thing is if you keep telling good stories with good individuals, they will get over. Trips isn't very kind to some wrestlers which I don't like as well. MVP is one I'd say. He could be utilized in variety of roles. But there have been some good aspects like less Jindar, Omos, Moss, etc.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Considering that there is no PPV between now and late January, I can definitely see them doing Sheamus v Reigns on an episode of SD! since they have teased that match too. But for a big show like Royal Rumble, KO v Reigns is more of a big money match and also one which they can use to tie-in their Sami Zayn-Bloodline storyline.

I'd like them to throw in some IN Your House or Super Showdown Australia sort of an event in between SS and RR.

I don't know what's Sheamus is going to do in the meantime if they start progressing KO vs Reigns. He can't really just go and hype up Dunne and Ridge vs Usos when he is at an all time high in terms of reactions.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah but structurally and logically the match did not make alot of sense for the most part. And I go back to the point of the match when the Brutes were getting the heat on the Usos and Zayn. The crowd should not have been cheering for the top heel faction to fight back against the benevolent babyfaces in that moment.

Yeah but I don't really see Roman as the monster heel type. A monster heel for me is not someone who is in a faction. He's someone who just comes out on TV and kills someone every week. Most of the matches Roman has won in his 2 year run as champion have been due to cheating or The Bloodline interfering. And that's how it should be. A heel should cheat to win. I think there were other ways that they could have ensured that Roman was in the match for as little as possible. Had he come out second last he would have been in the match for only 5 minutes more.

Its interesting you make that comparison because although both Ridge and Solo are very green, I think the two are world's apart in terms of potential. Ridge for me is very meh and doesn't offer anything that gives you the indication that he could be anything good or great. Solo though, despite having a very basic move-set (much like Ridge) and little to no promo ability (his entire gimmick is that he's the big, mean enforcer) comes off like a massive potential future star. And that's all down to his look, presentation, facial expressions and the way he moves in the ring, which is actually very reminiscent of his late cousin Umaga.

I think it's fine for a monster heel to be in a faction. Roman looks like a big big star. The Samoan dynamic is always going to be there as they are closely knitted people and even casual fans are well aware of it. Him thinking about his cousins merely adds another layer to his character which is a good thing IMO. Roman is the first face of the company who is a heel which fits the current generation of fans.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That’s high praise for the triple threat, I might check it out if it stacks up against Unbreakable 2005 and WM 20? or maybe it’s more in the mould of Lesnar/Cena/Rollins

Yeah I wouldn't say its as good as either of those matches or even close. But I would definitely put it in the very upper echelon of Triple Threat matches. Maybe its just me and maybe its just because I have seen so many of these types of matches in recent times where one guy is just sitting outside the ring waiting for his spot, but it was so refreshing to see a fast-paced three-way match that didn't just make sense and have some really creative stuff on-offer but also involved all 3 competitors for most of the match.

I'd definitely say that t was better than Cena/Rollins/Lesnar though.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In this era the heel and baby dynamic is thrown out the window, it happened in the past but I think it is a lot more frequent now. The fans and how fickle they are have a lot to do with it and short attention spans in general. With spot matches, I rarely take them seriously. But the story was really over which helped the match massively and I agree with Bunny on how Roman was presented, it’s possible they did that to present him as a strong heel, and his mannerisms really made the most of that situation, biggest star in wrestling.

I would never compare these matches to the classic War Games encounters tbh they are forever GOATED, but this was the best out of the ones they have done under the WWE umbrella imo

I dunno man. The more I think about it the less I'm okay with it. I feel like WarGames is a match that works because it has a very simple and basic psychology at play. Its kinda designed to be that way. On closer reflection I'd probably deduct a 0.5 star and go with 4.25/5.

It was a great match that really picked up at the end and had great finish. There was even a story at play. But psychology-wise it made no sense.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I wouldn’t mind that, it’s a compelling narrative. We are in unique territory where creatively there are so many possibilities and the outcome is not a foregone conclusion, pro-wrestling 101

While watching the match I was thinking how KO is Hunter’s guy and that it may not be too long before he is champion again. And I saw a dirt sheet which suggested that Reigns/KO is being considered for Mania? not sure how true but wouldn’t surprise me.

The nepotism and conflict of interest is emphatic. This is similar to Misbah being on the panel which fired Mickey Arther except worse. Huntdeep and his boys are running the show and pushing their favourites with no accountability, it doesn’t concern me whether it’s working or not creatively but it amuses me that most fans are fine with this but take the moral high ground with other issues in wrestling, e.g. F U Punk and whatever else

Marks will be marks, but because I really like many of the guys that are perceived to be Hunter's guys I would say that I'm very much happy with this. In particular I would say that I am really happy that Balor and KO are being pushed. I even heard the rumor that HHH considers Balor a "reclamation project" and wants to push him not just because he was one of the first guys that he brought to NXT and also because of his personal friendship with Balor.

I think at the end of the day wrestling fans need to stop taking moral high-grounds (usually the AEW fans more than anyone else tbh) and just admit that they like XYZ and hate ABC. It's okay to have likes and dislikes. But once you start masking it behind faux-morality than it becomes a problem because the you're just a sanctimonious SOB

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I'd like them to throw in some IN Your House or Super Showdown Australia sort of an event in between SS and RR.

I don't know what's Sheamus is going to do in the meantime if they start progressing KO vs Reigns. He can't really just go and hype up Dunne and Ridge vs Usos when he is at an all time high in terms of reactions.

Unlikely since they usually plan these kind of events months in advance. Plus, when I look at WWE's current business model it seems to have moved away from PPVs and more towards TV ratings and big shows that draw massive gates.

Is he though? The reactions he was getting a couple of months ago seem to have died down massively. Even in the WarGames match, The Bloodline and KO were getting far bigger reactions than him. He's still over but I don't think WWE have done anything to capitalize on his momentum after his match with Gunther in Wales.

 

[shaz619]

Marks will be marks, but because I really like many of the guys that are perceived to be Hunter's guys I would say that I'm very much happy with this. In particular I would say that I am really happy that Balor and KO are being pushed. I even heard the rumor that HHH considers Balor a "reclamation project" and wants to push him not just because he was one of the first guys that he brought to NXT and also because of his personal friendship with Balor.

I think at the end of the day wrestling fans need to stop taking moral high-grounds (usually the AEW fans more than anyone else tbh) and just admit that they like XYZ and hate ABC. It's okay to have likes and dislikes. But once you start masking it behind faux-morality than it becomes a problem because the you're just a sanctimonious SOB

It’s a fortunate coincidence that those guys happen to be pretty good but then he gives someone like Shotzi a PPV match with Rousey on a big 4 PPV, why? because she done her entrance in a DX tank and sucks up to 4/10.

We have to draw the line or else Jinder Mahal will be champion again who knows, they want to do a stadium show in insect land.

Remember that WWF segment where Huntdeep is making racist comment about Pakistanis, it may explain Ali’s recent burials to perhaps

 

[shaz619]

I dunno man. The more I think about it the less I'm okay with it. I feel like WarGames is a match that works because it has a very simple and basic psychology at play. Its kinda designed to be that way. On closer reflection I'd probably deduct a 0.5 star and go with 4.25/5.

It was a great match that really picked up at the end and had great finish. There was even a story at play. But psychology-wise it made no sense.

I have very low standards for gimmick matches in this era but I enjoyed this due to the strong story telling. I never really picked up on the things you did in doing so, but I also treat these matches separate to traditional war games / rules. If we look at gimmick matches in the last 5 years or so, nothing comes close to Punk vs MJF

 

[shaz619]

Yeah I wouldn't say its as good as either of those matches or even close. But I would definitely put it in the very upper echelon of Triple Threat matches. Maybe its just me and maybe its just because I have seen so many of these types of matches in recent times where one guy is just sitting outside the ring waiting for his spot, but it was so refreshing to see a fast-paced three-way match that didn't just make sense and have some really creative stuff on-offer but also involved all 3 competitors for most of the match.

I'd definitely say that t was better than Cena/Rollins/Lesnar though.

I will add it to my list.

Would be cooler if they bought back elimination rules to three/four way matches, as it was SS would have been a good time without the traditional 5 on 5

 

[shaz619]

I watched the triple threat and while it was fine, some things I wasn’t a fan off.

You had the usual guy chucked on the outside while the two do battle in the ring, I didn’t see much creativity with it. And as good as Seth is, will he ever actually hit the Phoenix splash? it is way too premeditated him missing it into a counter.

And the finish was far from ideal. Theory got hit with a superplex which turned into a falcon arrow, then magically recovered to cover Seth just seconds later after he got hit with a spear. This could have been done better if they wanted to go with the flukey win rather then no selling a signature move.

I thought Theory looked pretty good in the match, he keeps getting better though. However, the finish does him no good really. A pretty weak way to win the title considering his new no ** gimmick.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I watched the triple threat and while it was fine, some things I wasn’t a fan off.

You had the usual guy chucked on the outside while the two do battle in the ring, I didn’t see much creativity with it. And as good as Seth is, will he ever actually hit the Phoenix splash? it is way too premeditated him missing it into a counter.

And the finish was far from ideal. Theory got hit with a superplex which turned into a falcon arrow, then magically recovered to cover Seth just seconds later after he got hit with a spear. This could have been done better if they wanted to go with the flukey win rather then no selling a signature move.

I thought Theory looked pretty good in the match, he keeps getting better though. However, the finish does him no good really. A pretty weak way to win the title considering his new no ** gimmick.

To each their own. But I thought this match had minimal guys waiting on the outside. And even when it happened it didn't happen for long. 80% of the match was them in the ring at the same time. And just about everything was executed to perfection.

I also thought that the finish made sense because at the end of the day, Theory is not on Seth or Lashley's level in any way. He doesn't even come close at this point because he hasn't been presented as such even when Vince was there. The only way it made sense for him to win was by fluke.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I have very low standards for gimmick matches in this era but I enjoyed this due to the strong story telling. I never really picked up on the things you did in doing so, but I also treat these matches separate to traditional war games / rules. If we look at gimmick matches in the last 5 years or so, nothing comes close to Punk vs MJF

Yup. Punk v MJF is the standard-bearer for this generation to follow. A perfect combination of incredible story-telling and great wrestling. Gonna be hard for any match to come close to that.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I will add it to my list.

Would be cooler if they bought back elimination rules to three/four way matches, as it was SS would have been a good time without the traditional 5 on 5

Yeah I have no idea why they don't do those anymore. Those matches would actually be really easy to book and probably make logical sense for the most part. But for some reason everyone is intent on following the WWE model. Back in the day, ECW used to do alot of Three Way Elimination matches while WCW did the Four Corners match instead of a Fatal Four Way. No idea why they were just abandoned.

 

[shaz619]

To each their own. But I thought this match had minimal guys waiting on the outside. And even when it happened it didn't happen for long. 80% of the match was them in the ring at the same time. And just about everything was executed to perfection.

I also thought that the finish made sense because at the end of the day, Theory is not on Seth or Lashley's level in any way. He doesn't even come close at this point because he hasn't been presented as such even when Vince was there. The only way it made sense for him to win was by fluke.

It happened mostly at the start/middle, second half was better. Did you have any issue with Theory no selling the superplex and falcon arrow at the end?

The fluke in itself I have no issue with but the no selling bothered me.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah I have no idea why they don't do those anymore. Those matches would actually be really easy to book and probably make logical sense for the most part. But for some reason everyone is intent on following the WWE model. Back in the day, ECW used to do alot of Three Way Elimination matches while WCW did the Four Corners match instead of a Fatal Four Way. No idea why they were just abandoned.

ECW I understand innovated the triple threat, WWE took out the elimination rules, they used them sporadically. Most famously at WM 2000 in the 4 way

Yes, psychologically it’s the best way to do these matches.

But I am numb to these encounters being spot oriented

 

[shaz619]

Yup. Punk v MJF is the standard-bearer for this generation to follow. A perfect combination of incredible story-telling and great wrestling. Gonna be hard for any match to come close to that.

That deserved a 5* that dog collar match, but it got a 4.75*, usually when Meltzer is too hurt by something being better outside the gymnastics her jerks to. He gave 4.75* also to HBK/Taker and HBK/Angle to lol

I need to watch that again, what a fight

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] I recall you saying a while back that Hogan/Flair was not booked for mania due to house show feedback.

I saw a clip on social media which indicates otherwise. The crowd went bezerk following a false finish in favour of Flair which was later turned over in seconds, the crowd was about to riot lol Hogan got a huge pop despite being announced winner by DQ. The audience seemed heavily invested in the match.

I think it was a blessing in disguise anyway because we got Flair vs Savage which was a classic

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have very low standards for gimmick matches in this era but I enjoyed this due to the strong story telling. I never really picked up on the things you did in doing so, but I also treat these matches separate to traditional war games / rules. If we look at gimmick matches in the last 5 years or so, nothing comes close to Punk vs MJF

My favorite gimmick match of last 5 years has been Royal Rumble 2020 (Drew's Rumble), Wargames 2 (Dunne, Ricochet and Raiders vs UE. For some reason I love love love this match) and that 6 men ladder match for NA championship (was a spot fest but what a spotfest it was)

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

ECW I understand innovated the triple threat, WWE took out the elimination rules, they used them sporadically. Most famously at WM 2000 in the 4 way

Yes, psychologically it’s the best way to do these matches.

But I am numb to these encounters being spot oriented

For someone reason WWE has to make a *******ized version of just about every gimmick match they take from some place else. Whether its the Steel Cage match, WarGames or Triple Threat/Four Way.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] I recall you saying a while back that Hogan/Flair was not booked for mania due to house show feedback.

I saw a clip on social media which indicates otherwise. The crowd went bezerk following a false finish in favour of Flair which was later turned over in seconds, the crowd was about to riot lol Hogan got a huge pop despite being announced winner by DQ. The audience seemed heavily invested in the match.

I think it was a blessing in disguise anyway because we got Flair vs Savage which was a classic

Alot of people think Hogan put the breaks on it but I find that hard to believe considering Hogan (being the politician that he was) knew how good Flair was for him, because of how good he always made him look. I don't think the house show reason is that implausible. Back in the day, Vince paid alot of heed to house-show reactions. He still did in the later years as well, but especially during those days when WWE wasn't as big and business would regularly be down. Plus, Meltzer backed up that reason too and said that during a few house-shows Hogan/Sid was getting bigger reactions. Which is why Vince went with it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It happened mostly at the start/middle, second half was better. Did you have any issue with Theory no selling the superplex and falcon arrow at the end?

The fluke in itself I have no issue with but the no selling bothered me.

The Suplex/Falcon Arrow is such a stupid move that I am usually more angry at that move being used than anything else. In this case though I didn't feel it was exactly no-selling. Theory happened to land close to Seth and it was plausible for him to have just enough to roll over and put his arm over Seth for the pin.

 

[shaz619]

Alot of people think Hogan put the breaks on it but I find that hard to believe considering Hogan (being the politician that he was) knew how good Flair was for him, because of how good he always made him look. I don't think the house show reason is that implausible. Back in the day, Vince paid alot of heed to house-show reactions. He still did in the later years as well, but especially during those days when WWE wasn't as big and business would regularly be down. Plus, Meltzer backed up that reason too and said that during a few house-shows Hogan/Sid was getting bigger reactions. Which is why Vince went with it.

It’s a theory which has some merit for sure but seeing that footage it seems to indicate it may have been some other reasons to. Hogan mania matches were usually built around him conquering a monster heel and there’s also the possibility that Vince felt Hogan/Sid with lead billing would be a better sell on PPV, having said that, it may have also been one of the first instances where two high profile matches were pushed as main events with Flair/Savage being designated the co-main-event of the night.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Alot of people think Hogan put the breaks on it but I find that hard to believe considering Hogan (being the politician that he was) knew how good Flair was for him, because of how good he always made him look. I don't think the house show reason is that implausible. Back in the day, Vince paid alot of heed to house-show reactions. He still did in the later years as well, but especially during those days when WWE wasn't as big and business would regularly be down. Plus, Meltzer backed up that reason too and said that during a few house-shows Hogan/Sid was getting bigger reactions. Which is why Vince went with it.

WWE repeated that mistake by not doing Taker vs Sting at Mania 31.

Two money matches that wrote themselves. I believe AJ vs Cena should have happened at Mania as well rather than RR as Cena went on to feud with Miz and Maryse with Nikki that Mania in one of the most unnecessary cringe feuds.

 

[shaz619]

The Suplex/Falcon Arrow is such a stupid move that I am usually more angry at that move being used than anything else. In this case though I didn't feel it was exactly no-selling. Theory happened to land close to Seth and it was plausible for him to have just enough to roll over and put his arm over Seth for the pin.

It appeared as though he kicked out and went into a cover, was too blatant and they may justify it as instinctive but hard to buy when he took two big moves. It wasn’t one of those Backlash 04 situations where Cena retained after taking the super kick and landing into a cover after being KO’d, these spots can be done better but this era style can somewhat justify this no selling because guys throw haymakers to each other in succession without flinching, not one of those “I’m firing up” situations after taking strikes but move after move takes the p!ss

 

[shaz619]

My favorite gimmick match of last 5 years has been Royal Rumble 2020 (Drew's Rumble), Wargames 2 (Dunne, Ricochet and Raiders vs UE. For some reason I love love love this match) and that 6 men ladder match for NA championship (was a spot fest but what a spotfest it was)

Ah I didn’t consider the Rumble but yes it can be entertaining when done right. The Wargames matches were a lot of fun but with little psychology compared to the classic matches. NXT though showcased some of the best spot wrestling I’ve ever seen

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It appeared as though he kicked out and went into a cover, was too blatant and they may justify it as instinctive but hard to buy when he took two big moves. It wasn’t one of those Backlash 04 situations where Cena retained after taking the super kick and landing into a cover after being KO’d, these spots can be done better but this era style can somewhat justify this no selling because guys throw haymakers to each other in succession without flinching, not one of those “I’m firing up” situations after taking strikes but move after move takes the p!ss

Oh god. I hate those. That's the Japanese influence and the AEW crowd seems to be especially impressed by that stuff. The standing and taking chops bit is also really stupid and something you see far too often in AEW. Also inspired by Japan.

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] I recall you saying a while back that Hogan/Flair was not booked for mania due to house show feedback.

I saw a clip on social media which indicates otherwise. The crowd went bezerk following a false finish in favour of Flair which was later turned over in seconds, the crowd was about to riot lol Hogan got a huge pop despite being announced winner by DQ. The audience seemed heavily invested in the match.

I think it was a blessing in disguise anyway because we got Flair vs Savage which was a classic

I remember hearing that the house shows didn't draw well ?

I guess Flair wasn't that well known in the North East. It's a shame that dream match never happened at WM8, although Flair-Savage was wonderful.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It’s a theory which has some merit for sure but seeing that footage it seems to indicate it may have been some other reasons to. Hogan mania matches were usually built around him conquering a monster heel and there’s also the possibility that Vince felt Hogan/Sid with lead billing would be a better sell on PPV, having said that, it may have also been one of the first instances where two high profile matches were pushed as main events with Flair/Savage being designated the co-main-event of the night.

C'mon man, we both know that the main-event is the match that goes on last. But that's Vince for you. He has always gone to big guys when he felt business was down, or a match may not draw aswell. It's like his "incase of emergency break glass" move. He did the same in '97 with Sid vs Undertaker in the main-event...eventhough like Sid/Hogan there was another match on the card that people remember most all these years later.

It's a shame this match didn't happen in WWE because I think that Hogan v Flair would have drawn some serious money with the potential of some WCW fans crossing over to watch the match as well.

 

[shaz619]

C'mon man, we both know that the main-event is the match that goes on last. But that's Vince for you. He has always gone to big guys when he felt business was down, or a match may not draw aswell. It's like his "incase of emergency break glass" move. He did the same in '97 with Sid vs Undertaker in the main-event...eventhough like Sid/Hogan there was another match on the card that people remember most all these years later.

It's a shame this match didn't happen in WWE because I think that Hogan v Flair would have drawn some serious money with the potential of some WCW fans crossing over to watch the match as well.

In the 21st century that’s generally true and I take your point, but it was a huge deal back then in 1992. It was the first time in the history of Wrestlemania where the promotional poster featured two matches and Flair has been regarded as someone who co-headlined Wrestlemania. The big baby and the monster heel traditionally would always get lead billing but Flair broke things up a bit and Vince wasn’t naive enough to underestimate his drawing power and made the most of his short stint

It would have done some decent numbers, I still believe there is a lot more to it then house show feedback because it was quiet positive in general, there is a chance Sid/Hogan may have been slightly more over but still. But I also think Sid/Savage wouldn’t have worked so well