The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[RedwoodOriginal]

WWE repeated that mistake by not doing Taker vs Sting at Mania 31.

Two money matches that wrote themselves. I believe AJ vs Cena should have happened at Mania as well rather than RR as Cena went on to feud with Miz and Maryse with Nikki that Mania in one of the most unnecessary cringe feuds.

Taker v Sting is the kind of the match that sounds better on paper than it would have in the ring. Either guy winning would have disappointed the fans of the other. Plus, 2015 Sting and 2015 Undertaker were hardly the same guys in the ring that were in their prime or even in the late 2000s.

Miz main-eventing WrestleMania 27 is still something I can't seem to swallow. I see your point about Cena/AJ but tbh the series of matches they had was so awesome that I can't complain. Would have liked to see Cena vs Samoa Joe at WM 33 tho. Would have been interesting to see if they tapped into Cena and Joe's history. Both guys cut their teeth in UWF, a small indie promotion down in California. Unfortunately Joe got injured during Mania season.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In the 21st century thatÂ’s generally true and I take your point, but it was a huge deal back then in 1992. It was the first time in the history of Wrestlemania where the promotional poster featured two matches and Flair has been regarded as someone who co-headlined Wrestlemania. The big baby and the monster heel traditionally would always get lead billing but Flair broke things up a bit and Vince wasnÂ’t naive enough to underestimate his drawing power and made the most of his short stint

It would have done some decent numbers, I still believe there is a lot more to it then house show feedback because it was quiet positive in general, there is a chance Sid/Hogan may have been slightly more over but still. But I also think Sid/Savage wouldnÂ’t have worked so well

I've seen alot of Sid. For my money, he was probably one of the worst wrestlers to be featured prominently in a main-event spot in both major companies for such a long time..although I must admit that I loved his crazy promos.

Did the guy have any drawing power tho? Or was it just a case of who he was in the ring with? Be it, Hogan, Taker or Goldberg.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I've seen alot of Sid. For my money, he was probably one of the worst wrestlers to be featured prominently in a main-event spot in both major companies for such a long time..although I must admit that I loved his crazy promos.

Did the guy have any drawing power tho? Or was it just a case of who he was in the ring with? Be it, Hogan, Taker or Goldberg.

Have you seen his botch and promos posted by wrestlebotch? Sid is probably the funniest wrestler of all time (unintentionally)

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Taker v Sting is the kind of the match that sounds better on paper than it would have in the ring. Either guy winning would have disappointed the fans of the other. Plus, 2015 Sting and 2015 Undertaker were hardly the same guys in the ring that were in their prime or even in the late 2000s.

Miz main-eventing WrestleMania 27 is still something I can't seem to swallow. I see your point about Cena/AJ but tbh the series of matches they had was so awesome that I can't complain. Would have liked to see Cena vs Samoa Joe at WM 33 tho. Would have been interesting to see if they tapped into Cena and Joe's history. Both guys cut their teeth in UWF, a small indie promotion down in California. Unfortunately Joe got injured during Mania season.

Nah Taker kept providing good matches till 2015. It was only by 2017 that he was just done. Sting was in very good touch back then as well. Although Seeing a 2005 Taker vs 2005 Sting would have definitely been better, but both Taker and Sting were guys who weren't just about presence at the tail end of their careers (like Trips, Kane, Flair, Hogan etc), they were definitely better workers who could give a good match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Taker v Sting is the kind of the match that sounds better on paper than it would have in the ring. Either guy winning would have disappointed the fans of the other. Plus, 2015 Sting and 2015 Undertaker were hardly the same guys in the ring that were in their prime or even in the late 2000s.

Miz main-eventing WrestleMania 27 is still something I can't seem to swallow. I see your point about Cena/AJ but tbh the series of matches they had was so awesome that I can't complain. Would have liked to see Cena vs Samoa Joe at WM 33 tho. Would have been interesting to see if they tapped into Cena and Joe's history. Both guys cut their teeth in UWF, a small indie promotion down in California. Unfortunately Joe got injured during Mania season.

I am fine with Miz main eventing Mania. It's just that even in his main event, Miz or his feud wasn't the main focus in Mania main event. All the focus was on Cena and Dwayne and how Dwayne would interfere.

They could have given Miz some other opponent over WWE championship and it would have been a lot better. Miz vs Randy could have been much better.

 

[shaz619]

I've seen alot of Sid. For my money, he was probably one of the worst wrestlers to be featured prominently in a main-event spot in both major companies for such a long time..although I must admit that I loved his crazy promos.

Did the guy have any drawing power tho? Or was it just a case of who he was in the ring with? Be it, Hogan, Taker or Goldberg.

Yes, in the ring he was shocking. But he had an incredible look and physical charisma, his promos and look probably were driven by roids though. He always had a great presence about him and while when you look back you might think about how big a draw he was (I feel part of this comes from WWE’s lowest financial period), I’d say he was a great support act during his run whenever he was committed. If you just look at his run in 96 when he returned, the program with Shawn should silence the doubts to some degree, that was a fantastic program and while Shawn elevated most in the ring, Sid did the job and was a great name on Shawn’s resume, that program had edge and 97 would take a step further into a new world for the “new generation”. Shawn was a name, but Sid had been in the ring with the bigger names and he really did help add to Shawn’s main event appeal imo and that’s a compliment to Sid because I thought Shawn was a great champion in his first stint

 

[shaz619]

I've seen alot of Sid. For my money, he was probably one of the worst wrestlers to be featured prominently in a main-event spot in both major companies for such a long time..although I must admit that I loved his crazy promos.

Did the guy have any drawing power tho? Or was it just a case of who he was in the ring with? Be it, Hogan, Taker or Goldberg.

What did you make of MJF’s promo? thank god he is staying heel, he is a master at working the crowd he threw in so many Darth Burius references in that segment with Regal who apparently is WWE bound

 

[shaz619]

C'mon man, we both know that the main-event is the match that goes on last. But that's Vince for you. He has always gone to big guys when he felt business was down, or a match may not draw aswell. It's like his "incase of emergency break glass" move. He did the same in '97 with Sid vs Undertaker in the main-event...eventhough like Sid/Hogan there was another match on the card that people remember most all these years later.

It's a shame this match didn't happen in WWE because I think that Hogan v Flair would have drawn some serious money with the potential of some WCW fans crossing over to watch the match as well.

I forgot to add that Vince always goes to the big guys/stars until he found a son in law :WM2000 :x8 :25 :21 :22 maybe others to but x8 had to be one of the worst along with 25. At x8 he didn’t even make the promotional poster. But I’d say the further we get into the 21st century, the main event slot had started to mean less and less given how long the event would be and WM establishing itself as a draw in itself (Punk was right about this, couldn’t be more true now imo)

 

[shaz619]

I am fine with Miz main eventing Mania. It's just that even in his main event, Miz or his feud wasn't the main focus in Mania main event. All the focus was on Cena and Dwayne and how Dwayne would interfere.

They could have given Miz some other opponent over WWE championship and it would have been a lot better. Miz vs Randy could have been much better.

I like the Mizz more then most and he was a great servant to the company. Reliable, great on heel promos, did his utmost to improve his ring work and always took time for the fans and media. I don’t have an issue with him even main eventing a mania. But I think it’s a travesty that he did and CM Punk did not. Timing is a part of it to because Punk got mega over after that. Punk was unlucky but it doesn’t mean a lot. I still feel Punk/Taker at WM 29 was the real attraction for me opposed to twice in a life time.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

What did you make of MJFÂ’s promo? thank god he is staying heel, he is a master at working the crowd he threw in so many Darth Burius references in that segment with Regal who apparently is WWE bound

What I find funny is that some marks actually fell for it and thought (still think) that he should turn face. But I thought that promo was a stroke of genius. Love all the HHH references, I especially popped for "my reign of terror is just beginning"...and it was especially poetic that Regal was standing in the ring considering his affiliation with HHH and what happened to him later on. I expect them to follow-up on this, this week on Dynamite to write Regal off completely.

Best part was probably when he talked about the "fickle fans", I was laughing my a** off at that part.

The only thing I didn't like about this segment was the belt reveal. MJF built the reveal up as if he was about to unveil his own version of Cena's spinner belt. And then you look at it and all that has changed is the strap lol. But other than that great segment.

Ngl, I would have loved to see that Regal-MJF pairing but its not like MJF needs a mouth-piece. Besides its hard to imagine Regal not going back to WWE given his long-standing relationship with H. Of all the guys that tend to come and go from AEW these days, I thought Regal's run was one of the better ones and he was used well on TV.

Now his exit can be used to set-up Danielson v MJF: the only feud in AEW that we all want to see right now.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Nah Taker kept providing good matches till 2015. It was only by 2017 that he was just done. Sting was in very good touch back then as well. Although Seeing a 2005 Taker vs 2005 Sting would have definitely been better, but both Taker and Sting were guys who weren't just about presence at the tail end of their careers (like Trips, Kane, Flair, Hogan etc), they were definitely better workers who could give a good match.

Yeah but you could feel that was nearing his end in that WrestleMania 30 match against Brock where he got concussed. Taker was one of the greatest of all-time so even at his lowest he could put on very good matches. But I think he was probably best served when he was in the ring with someone young---towards the tail-end of his career, that is. Sting had basically been wrestling as a part-timer in TNA during that period as well. So I don't think that a match between him and Taker would have been that great, even if it would have been better than the borefest that Sting and Triple H put on.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I am fine with Miz main eventing Mania. It's just that even in his main event, Miz or his feud wasn't the main focus in Mania main event. All the focus was on Cena and Dwayne and how Dwayne would interfere.

They could have given Miz some other opponent over WWE championship and it would have been a lot better. Miz vs Randy could have been much better.

I dunno man. Unlike you I guys I am not someone who has ever liked The Miz or seen him as a main-eventer. So tbh, I would have been fine with just about any upper-tier heel in that main-event besides The Miz. I even would have been fine with Cena v Orton for the umpteenth time (as much as I hated that match-up), but it is what it is, I guess.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I like the Mizz more then most and he was a great servant to the company. Reliable, great on heel promos, did his utmost to improve his ring work and always took time for the fans and media. I don’t have an issue with him even main eventing a mania. But I think it’s a travesty that he did and CM Punk did not. Timing is a part of it to because Punk got mega over after that. Punk was unlucky but it doesn’t mean a lot. I still feel Punk/Taker at WM 29 was the real attraction for me opposed to twice in a life time.

Yeah but even with that match the build was bizarre. They basically had a Fatal Four Way match on RAW to determine who was going to face Taker at Mania, which is a really weird and inorganic way of booking an Undertaker WrestleMania match. And with the talent and ability that Punk had as a heel they could have done so much more to tell a more compelling story there other than Punk stealing Paul Bearer's ashes lol.

The match was brilliant. Probably one of Taker's best ever Mania matches, in my opinion but I totally get why Punk was mentally checked out of WWE at that point.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes, in the ring he was shocking. But he had an incredible look and physical charisma, his promos and look probably were driven by roids though. He always had a great presence about him and while when you look back you might think about how big a draw he was (I feel part of this comes from WWE’s lowest financial period), I’d say he was a great support act during his run whenever he was committed. If you just look at his run in 96 when he returned, the program with Shawn should silence the doubts to some degree, that was a fantastic program and while Shawn elevated most in the ring, Sid did the job and was a great name on Shawn’s resume, that program had edge and 97 would take a step further into a new world for the “new generation”. Shawn was a name, but Sid had been in the ring with the bigger names and he really did help add to Shawn’s main event appeal imo and that’s a compliment to Sid because I thought Shawn was a great champion in his first stint

I've probably seen those matches because I've seen most of WWE from 96 onwards but don't remember it too well because I saw it a long time ago when I was jobless and burning daylight every day just watching endless amounts of wrestling. But I will go back and revisit those matches if I have the time.

Yeah his look and presence was fantastic. Which probably explains why WCW brought him back as late as 1999 eventhough he was dogs**t in the ring and almost completely immobile. But I tell you man his late 90s WCW run is a thing of beauty purely from a comedy stand-point.

Crazy to think that at point of his career WCW was ready to strap a rocket to his back and put him over in the main-event of Starrcade. Until ofcourse he stabbed Arn and was sent packing.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I forgot to add that Vince always goes to the big guys/stars until he found a son in law :WM2000 :x8 :25 :21 :22 maybe others to but x8 had to be one of the worst along with 25. At x8 he didnÂ’t even make the promotional poster. But IÂ’d say the further we get into the 21st century, the main event slot had started to mean less and less given how long the event would be and WM establishing itself as a draw in itself (Punk was right about this, couldnÂ’t be more true now imo)

Funny you mention this because now that I think about it none of these matches were any good. And I think you can add WrestleMania 32 to the list as well.

WrestleMania 21 was the culmination of a great storyline and the coronation of Batista as 'the guy', but as a match it was bang-on average in my book. Not even in the same stratosphere as the HIAC match these two had at Vengeance.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Have you seen his botch and promos posted by wrestlebotch? Sid is probably the funniest wrestler of all time (unintentionally)

Haven't seen wrestlebotch but I feel like I have seen all his best promos and botches by watching his 1999-01 WCW run. The promos in particular are a thing of beauty.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Now that Regal is WWE bound, Triple H should use his head and appoint Regal as the GM of SD or RAW. If he thinks that the GM model is outdated or is "a Vince-ism" then just make him the Commissioner for both brands. Either way, I think wrestling these days is really missing an on-air authority figure.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I dunno man. Unlike you I guys I am not someone who has ever liked The Miz or seen him as a main-eventer. So tbh, I would have been fine with just about any upper-tier heel in that main-event besides The Miz. I even would have been fine with Cena v Orton for the umpteenth time (as much as I hated that match-up), but it is what it is, I guess.

Don't know man, I like Miz for all the hardwork he has done, and his promo work is awesome (especially when he is a serious heel). I don't know why Maineventing Mania is such a big deal. Ideally some other match should have main evented that Mania. But people would tune in to watch Manias regardless of the card. That's something about Jericho and Punk I don't really like that they made this thing a very big issue. Austin was fine with wrestling Scott Hall in the mid card at Mania 18. Mania is itself a brand. For this recent mania, I doubt people tuned in to watch Roman vs Brock rather than watching Mania itself.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I like the Mizz more then most and he was a great servant to the company. Reliable, great on heel promos, did his utmost to improve his ring work and always took time for the fans and media. I don’t have an issue with him even main eventing a mania. But I think it’s a travesty that he did and CM Punk did not. Timing is a part of it to because Punk got mega over after that. Punk was unlucky but it doesn’t mean a lot. I still feel Punk/Taker at WM 29 was the real attraction for me opposed to twice in a life time.

Yes Miz wasn't definitely that over then. But maineventing Mania isn't really that big of a deal. It wasn't like he was relegated to a pre show (where the wrestler doesn't get any royalties). If you find yourself on that card, it's good enough. You can still give the fans the best match without being the main event. Mania 27 kinda sucked though alongside 32. Both felt very non grand.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah but you could feel that was nearing his end in that WrestleMania 30 match against Brock where he got concussed. Taker was one of the greatest of all-time so even at his lowest he could put on very good matches. But I think he was probably best served when he was in the ring with someone young---towards the tail-end of his career, that is. Sting had basically been wrestling as a part-timer in TNA during that period as well. So I don't think that a match between him and Taker would have been that great, even if it would have been better than the borefest that Sting and Triple H put on.

By then Taker was just doing 1 match a year. But Taker got a bad concussion at the start of the match. And was groggy throughout. He managed to finish the match without another botch which was itself an accomplishment. I read back then that he had to spend a few nights at the hospital afterwards and he didn't remember any of that match.

So I don't think his match quality was suffering because he was getting old but it was just unfortunate that he got injured. The year before, he put a great match with Punk. And a year later, he had a few great matches with Lesnar (that HIAC match was amazing). It was only in 2017 Mania against Roman, where he botched a lot of spots and looked washed up. He said he had gained a lot of weight around that time as well. Plus that match was booked terribly as well with Taker almost suffered a 20 min squash.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Funny you mention this because now that I think about it none of these matches were any good. And I think you can add WrestleMania 32 to the list as well.

WrestleMania 21 was the culmination of a great storyline and the coronation of Batista as 'the guy', but as a match it was bang-on average in my book. Not even in the same stratosphere as the HIAC match these two had at Vengeance.

Trips was never really a great in ring worker IMO. He was safe and reliable with a great look and good mic skills. Peak Trips had a great physique as well. But as a wrestler, his matches were very similar unless his opponent was HBK or Kurt or someone like that, they were mediocre mostly.

Honestly speaking, having Trips lose the title to Batista in a greatly booked feud was a very pleasing moment for fans regardless of the match quality. And having two mega heels (Trips and JBL) losing the titles to two fan favorites was just too good for fans. If we are talking about match quality, Cena vs JBL was one of the most underwhelming and poorly wrestled WWE title matches I had seen back then. But it was Cena's coronation moment and it felt great. Trips vs Batista was a bit better than that but it was about Batista's coronation which was great.

That Roman vs Trips 32 match is legit the worst main event of Mania (not just match quality but the build as well) Probably at par with Cena vs Miz. I doubt anyone was excited about that match. Even after winning, Roman had no heat. In another awful mainevent a year later, Roman had actually become the most hated guy in WWE after beating Taker and gained tons of heat. The 10 min chants in post Mania Raw in that Roman segment was legendary. The crowd didn't even let him speak.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

By then Taker was just doing 1 match a year. But Taker got a bad concussion at the start of the match. And was groggy throughout. He managed to finish the match without another botch which was itself an accomplishment. I read back then that he had to spend a few nights at the hospital afterwards and he didn't remember any of that match.

So I don't think his match quality was suffering because he was getting old but it was just unfortunate that he got injured. The year before, he put a great match with Punk. And a year later, he had a few great matches with Lesnar (that HIAC match was amazing). It was only in 2017 Mania against Roman, where he botched a lot of spots and looked washed up. He said he had gained a lot of weight around that time as well. Plus that match was booked terribly as well with Taker almost suffered a 20 min squash.

I agree but the match against Brock in itself was a wake-up call. Brock is a beast who goes 100 miles an hour and expects his opponents to be right there with him. The Taker of the 90s and 2000s may not have been in the same position. If you watch The Last Ride documentary series, you get to see the amount of self-doubt that Taker was under after that match. The other two matches that he had with Brock were much more smartly worked. The SummerSlam match probably went 15 minutes and had alot of MMA-inspired grappling and submission stuff. The HIAC was more brutal but methodical in pace. I'm certain they tried their best to avoid the prospect of Taker getting concussed in both these matches.

2017 was his lowest point no doubt. But you could see the cracks begin to appear in that WrestleMania 30 match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't know man, I like Miz for all the hardwork he has done, and his promo work is awesome (especially when he is a serious heel). I don't know why Maineventing Mania is such a big deal. Ideally some other match should have main evented that Mania. But people would tune in to watch Manias regardless of the card. That's something about Jericho and Punk I don't really like that they made this thing a very big issue. Austin was fine with wrestling Scott Hall in the mid card at Mania 18. Mania is itself a brand. For this recent mania, I doubt people tuned in to watch Roman vs Brock rather than watching Mania itself.

Agree to disagree I guess. Because I find The Miz to be the king of cheap heat. And I've almost never liked his work in the ring.

I dunno I think it shows how hungry you are be at the top and in many ways, it is a crowning achievement for any wrestler. To headline the biggest wrestling event of the year is no small feat. Because it shows that the company has alot of belief in you to be in that spot.

Did he though? From what I know, Austin was quite mentally checked out of wrestling at that point. He had issues in his personal life and his injuries were starting to catch up to him. It wasn't long after that he walked out of WWE. Initially, the plan was for him to wrestle Hogan, which then got changed to him wrestling Nash, which then got changed to him wrestling Hall after Hogan made it clear that he didn't want to put Austin over and Nash got injured (or faked it depending on who you ask). On top of that, the original finish for that match was for Hall to go over, which Austin got changed apparently after Hall came to Mania hungover.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Trips was never really a great in ring worker IMO. He was safe and reliable with a great look and good mic skills. Peak Trips had a great physique as well. But as a wrestler, his matches were very similar unless his opponent was HBK or Kurt or someone like that, they were mediocre mostly.

Honestly speaking, having Trips lose the title to Batista in a greatly booked feud was a very pleasing moment for fans regardless of the match quality. And having two mega heels (Trips and JBL) losing the titles to two fan favorites was just too good for fans. If we are talking about match quality, Cena vs JBL was one of the most underwhelming and poorly wrestled WWE title matches I had seen back then. But it was Cena's coronation moment and it felt great. Trips vs Batista was a bit better than that but it was about Batista's coronation which was great.

That Roman vs Trips 32 match is legit the worst main event of Mania (not just match quality but the build as well) Probably at par with Cena vs Miz. I doubt anyone was excited about that match. Even after winning, Roman had no heat. In another awful mainevent a year later, Roman had actually become the most hated guy in WWE after beating Taker and gained tons of heat. The 10 min chants in post Mania Raw in that Roman segment was legendary. The crowd didn't even let him speak.

HHH was not nearly as great of a worker as some of his peers from that era, that went on to become some of the biggest names in wrestling. But I do think he was a pretty good worker with good psychology, and a pretty great heel who could be relied on to get guys like Austin and Rock and HBK over because he was believable in that role, as a counter-point to them. Which is not something alot of wrestlers in that era were capable of being. He also had the ability to carry long matches. Granted sometimes, they got boring and indulgent, but just look at his matches with Austin (No Way Out '01), HBK (SummerSlam '02), Jericho (Judgement Day '02), the 60-minute Ironman match he had with Benoit on RAW, and many others. He even got a pretty good match out of Kevin Nash at Bad Blood '03. Yeah, all of his opponents I mentioned (with the exception of Nash) were great workers but I don't believe that these matches would have been that great without HHH being in there.

Yeah the WrestleMania 21 world title matches were definitely more about the coronation of these two than they were about the match-quality. Plus, I don't think you can really complain about match-quality on a card that had freakin' HBK v Angle---one of the ATG Mania matches. As well as that outstanding inaugural MITB Ladder match. And thing is, the success of building up these two guys (Batista and Cena) as the new faces of the company showed because up until that point WrestleMania 21 was the highest grossing WWE PPV of all-time in-terms of PPV buys.

That's a tough one. I still have to give the nod to Reigns v Lesnar at WrestleMania 34 because that was an absolutely puzzling match from a booking stand-point and beyond atrocious as a match. I'm not even going to defend Reigns' run of main-events leading upto that match (barring Mania 31) or Miz v Cena. But I'd put 34 on-top just because I hated it the most out of all these matches.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

HHH was not nearly as great of a worker as some of his peers from that era, that went on to become some of the biggest names in wrestling. But I do think he was a pretty good worker with good psychology, and a pretty great heel who could be relied on to get guys like Austin and Rock and HBK over because he was believable in that role, as a counter-point to them. Which is not something alot of wrestlers in that era were capable of being. He also had the ability to carry long matches. Granted sometimes, they got boring and indulgent, but just look at his matches with Austin (No Way Out '01), HBK (SummerSlam '02), Jericho (Judgement Day '02), the 60-minute Ironman match he had with Benoit on RAW, and many others. He even got a pretty good match out of Kevin Nash at Bad Blood '03. Yeah, all of his opponents I mentioned (with the exception of Nash) were great workers but I don't believe that these matches would have been that great without HHH being in there.

Yeah the WrestleMania 21 world title matches were definitely more about the coronation of these two than they were about the match-quality. Plus, I don't think you can really complain about match-quality on a card that had freakin' HBK v Angle---one of the ATG Mania matches. As well as that outstanding inaugural MITB Ladder match. And thing is, the success of building up these two guys (Batista and Cena) as the new faces of the company showed because up until that point WrestleMania 21 was the highest grossing WWE PPV of all-time in-terms of PPV buys.

That's a tough one. I still have to give the nod to Reigns v Lesnar at WrestleMania 34 because that was an absolutely puzzling match from a booking stand-point and beyond atrocious as a match. I'm not even going to defend Reigns' run of main-events leading upto that match (barring Mania 31) or Miz v Cena. But I'd put 34 on-top just because I hated it the most out of all these matches.

Roman was so hated that time that I actually enjoyed Lesnar beating the S out of him and even winning the match. Even though it didn't make any sense regarding how they had been booking the whole feud for over a year. It was reverse psychology I guess. Most of the crowd wanted Reigns to get mauled. Think Vince changed the result of the match at the last minute for some reason. It was actually a good wrestled match. Was very similar to the Mania 31 match but not that good because the crowd just wasn't invested a bit in it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Agree to disagree I guess. Because I find The Miz to be the king of cheap heat. And I've almost never liked his work in the ring.

I dunno I think it shows how hungry you are be at the top and in many ways, it is a crowning achievement for any wrestler. To headline the biggest wrestling event of the year is no small feat. Because it shows that the company has alot of belief in you to be in that spot.

Did he though? From what I know, Austin was quite mentally checked out of wrestling at that point. He had issues in his personal life and his injuries were starting to catch up to him. It wasn't long after that he walked out of WWE. Initially, the plan was for him to wrestle Hogan, which then got changed to him wrestling Nash, which then got changed to him wrestling Hall after Hogan made it clear that he didn't want to put Austin over and Nash got injured (or faked it depending on who you ask). On top of that, the original finish for that match was for Hall to go over, which Austin got changed apparently after Hall came to Mania hungover.

AJ got to main event Mania in a bizarre sort of encounter yet he didn't complain beforehand about it either. No doubt WWE screwed Punk over. But I think Punk sorta rubbed the management the wrong way as well. It was like clash of egos with the management (obviously being in control) screwed him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I agree but the match against Brock in itself was a wake-up call. Brock is a beast who goes 100 miles an hour and expects his opponents to be right there with him. The Taker of the 90s and 2000s may not have been in the same position. If you watch The Last Ride documentary series, you get to see the amount of self-doubt that Taker was under after that match. The other two matches that he had with Brock were much more smartly worked. The SummerSlam match probably went 15 minutes and had alot of MMA-inspired grappling and submission stuff. The HIAC was more brutal but methodical in pace. I'm certain they tried their best to avoid the prospect of Taker getting concussed in both these matches.

2017 was his lowest point no doubt. But you could see the cracks begin to appear in that WrestleMania 30 match.

Taker was extremely agile for his size in 90s and 2000s. He just had a bad phase in late 90s-early 2000s where he gained weight and got unfit. Apart from that, Taker was sort of an anomaly for a big guy. He could wrestle very quickly and wrestle well with every box checked. Lesnar is just an otherworldly creature. Not many wrestlers could match his speed and power (only Angle probs). The year prior, he had a pretty dull match with Trips. Think Taker and Brock should have just rehearsed the match because apart from that one, every single match of theirs were pure masterpieces. I liked their feud in 2000s more. Taker put Lesnar over in that HIAC at Unforgiven the best way possible and Lesnar did look invincible after that till he got beaten by Big Show.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Roman was so hated that time that I actually enjoyed Lesnar beating the S out of him and even winning the match. Even though it didn't make any sense regarding how they had been booking the whole feud for over a year. It was reverse psychology I guess. Most of the crowd wanted Reigns to get mauled. Think Vince changed the result of the match at the last minute for some reason. It was actually a good wrestled match. Was very similar to the Mania 31 match but not that good because the crowd just wasn't invested a bit in it.

Oh I have do doubt that he did. But that match was like the longest and most boring squash match of all-time. It just went on and on and on, with no rhyme or reason. I don't even remember them wrestling...just Brock beating the living s**t out of him to a chorus of boos from the crowd.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Taker was extremely agile for his size in 90s and 2000s. He just had a bad phase in late 90s-early 2000s where he gained weight and got unfit. Apart from that, Taker was sort of an anomaly for a big guy. He could wrestle very quickly and wrestle well with every box checked. Lesnar is just an otherworldly creature. Not many wrestlers could match his speed and power (only Angle probs). The year prior, he had a pretty dull match with Trips. Think Taker and Brock should have just rehearsed the match because apart from that one, every single match of theirs were pure masterpieces. I liked their feud in 2000s more. Taker put Lesnar over in that HIAC at Unforgiven the best way possible and Lesnar did look invincible after that till he got beaten by Big Show.

LOL yeah Lesnar's first run pretty much went off the rails after that Big Show feud. Another one of 50,000 attempts to get Big Show over as a monster heel. But hey, atleast we got the cool visual of Brock F5ing him.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

AJ got to main event Mania in a bizarre sort of encounter yet he didn't complain beforehand about it either. No doubt WWE screwed Punk over. But I think Punk sorta rubbed the management the wrong way as well. It was like clash of egos with the management (obviously being in control) screwed him.

He was right though, which is why I commend him for having the balls to tell it like it is. Fact is, Punk got over on his own at a time when the WWE product was utter garbage. The PPV main-event in the month that Punk cut his pipebomb promo was Cena vs. R-Truth. Punk showed WWE what he was capable of doing and made their product more interesting and fresh than it had been in years and yet they still did not value what he brought to the table.

Even during his 434 day reign as champion you had matches like Cena vs. Kane in an Ambulance Match main-eventing PPVs instead of the Championship match. Infact in all of 2012 he main-evented maybe half the PPVs if not less.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He was right though, which is why I commend him for having the balls to tell it like it is. Fact is, Punk got over on his own at a time when the WWE product was utter garbage. The PPV main-event in the month that Punk cut his pipebomb promo was Cena vs. R-Truth. Punk showed WWE what he was capable of doing and made their product more interesting and fresh than it had been in years and yet they still did not value what he brought to the table.

Even during his 434 day reign as champion you had matches like Cena vs. Kane in an Ambulance Match main-eventing PPVs instead of the Championship match. Infact in all of 2012 he main-evented maybe half the PPVs if not less.

the sad thing is you are never successful once you take the offense to the higher ups (in real world). Even though Vince etc still managed to screw him and sort of told the narrative to their audience that Punk was trouble and failed at MMA. He managed to come ouf it it with a bigger fanbase because it was the world of entertainment.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

LOL yeah Lesnar's first run pretty much went off the rails after that Big Show feud. Another one of 50,000 attempts to get Big Show over as a monster heel. But hey, atleast we got the cool visual of Brock F5ing him.

and then they repeated it again with Henry, Strowman etc.

 

[shaz619]

Funny you mention this because now that I think about it none of these matches were any good. And I think you can add WrestleMania 32 to the list as well.

WrestleMania 21 was the culmination of a great storyline and the coronation of Batista as 'the guy', but as a match it was bang-on average in my book. Not even in the same stratosphere as the HIAC match these two had at Vengeance.

Honestly, I hate to admit that in my view the WM21 main event for me is arguably Haitch’s best performance of his career because he produced for once when he had to carry the match and it came towards the back end of his reign of terror. From the standpoint of the build/feud, the psychology in the match was excellent and perfectly designed to sell Batista as an absolute animal and personified main eventer, the way he manhandled Haitch was a pleasure to watch and I will forever enjoy the scenes of a bloody Haitch being carried away by Ric as Batista stood tall. That PPV was the peak of my youth, WM 21 was special.

 

[shaz619]

HHH was not nearly as great of a worker as some of his peers from that era, that went on to become some of the biggest names in wrestling. But I do think he was a pretty good worker with good psychology, and a pretty great heel who could be relied on to get guys like Austin and Rock and HBK over because he was believable in that role, as a counter-point to them. Which is not something alot of wrestlers in that era were capable of being. He also had the ability to carry long matches. Granted sometimes, they got boring and indulgent, but just look at his matches with Austin (No Way Out '01), HBK (SummerSlam '02), Jericho (Judgement Day '02), the 60-minute Ironman match he had with Benoit on RAW, and many others. He even got a pretty good match out of Kevin Nash at Bad Blood '03. Yeah, all of his opponents I mentioned (with the exception of Nash) were great workers but I don't believe that these matches would have been that great without HHH being in there.

Yeah the WrestleMania 21 world title matches were definitely more about the coronation of these two than they were about the match-quality. Plus, I don't think you can really complain about match-quality on a card that had freakin' HBK v Angle---one of the ATG Mania matches. As well as that outstanding inaugural MITB Ladder match. And thing is, the success of building up these two guys (Batista and Cena) as the new faces of the company showed because up until that point WrestleMania 21 was the highest grossing WWE PPV of all-time in-terms of PPV buys.

That's a tough one. I still have to give the nod to Reigns v Lesnar at WrestleMania 34 because that was an absolutely puzzling match from a booking stand-point and beyond atrocious as a match. I'm not even going to defend Reigns' run of main-events leading upto that match (barring Mania 31) or Miz v Cena. But I'd put 34 on-top just because I hated it the most out of all these matches.

There’s a small number of instances where you can take your hat off to 4/10 when it came to high profile encounters. He heavily relied on superior ring talent to get the best out of him but was badly exposed when he had to take the lead. WM 32 is a perfect example of that. Hunter had all the tools, look, decent ring talent and could talk, however what makes him stand beneath the greats is how shockingly low his ring IQ was and the formulaic nature of his matches which were rarely entertaining unless he wrestled with someone very good or had the protection of strong booking / a gimmick match of some kind. Reigns and Cena both have superior ring IQ to Hunter, they vastly improved. Haitch been doing the same thing for decades no vision or creativity or adjustment

 

[shaz619]

Punk was not easy to work with that’s true but he had the mindset of the best in the world, he believed every word. Punk’s self belief, determination and will to elevate himself to the top were qualities which Vince deeply admired, no one else was willing to change the game or take their spot the way he did. People can criticise booking and what not but sometimes the onus is on the talent and Punk changed the game. And you have to give Vince credit, when he saw what Punk was about he supported him. Where things fell apart is when Hunter and his ego got invovled

 

[shaz619]

Punk/Taker WM 29 build was weird and their feud on Smackdown was like 5x better but they killed it on the night, Punk was in excruciating pain but worked that night with a death wish and along with Taker the two produced the match of the night.

The whole booking of WM29 was dreadful. After making millions a year earlier they put zero effort into the card and coasted on the back of their big names

 

[shaz619]

People use to say WWE would never sign AJ and that if he did come over he would be buried due to TNA. It took only a few matches for Vince to see AJ’s elite pedigree and the way he helped put Reigns over as champion on PPV I believe that was the big turning point for Vince, I knew after that performance he would get the belt and have a run.

Generally if you are $$$ and elite, Vince will recognise that at some point. Look at some of the smaller guys who got over by hook or crook despite being indy talent or whatever.

The common denominator has always been the son in law

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Honestly, I hate to admit that in my view the WM21 main event for me is arguably HaitchÂ’s best performance of his career because he produced for once when he had to carry the match and it came towards the back end of his reign of terror. From the standpoint of the build/feud, the psychology in the match was excellent and perfectly designed to sell Batista as an absolute animal and personified main eventer, the way he manhandled Haitch was a pleasure to watch and I will forever enjoy the scenes of a bloody Haitch being carried away by Ric as Batista stood tall. That PPV was the peak of my youth, WM 21 was special.

Yup no disagreements there. Probably why its stands the test of time as one of the greatest WrestleManias ever.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This is what the future of AEW should be, and this is what pro-wrestling should be. Not a couple of gymnasts holding each other's hands and jumping around and doing choreographed gymnastics for the approval of an over-the-hill old man's 'star ratings'. No. It should be two guys face-to-face telling each other why they hate the other's guts and why you, as a viewer should care about them fighting. These are the two guys are who this company should be built around for the next how ever many years.

Just about everyone has sung the praises of MJF for years now. And its fairly obvious why. But the riposte that Ricky Starks delivered to MJF on Dynamite last week was something else. First he gets sliced and diced by MJF verbally. And mind you, there were some great insults in there..."dollar store Dwayne"..."the pebble". Starks waits for MJF to finish. Then he just calmly walks past him, shouldering him. He picks up a mic and then goes on to just verbally fillet Max: a guy who hasn't been verbally filleted in this fashion since he went head-to-head on the microphone with Punk.

And it wasn't just a verbal beating that Starks gave Max. It was the way he delivered his promo. There was ba gawd' babyface fire and passion in this promo. You could tell that he really believed what he was saying and the fans agreed.

It's unfortunate that this feud has zero build barring this face-to-face. Starks's injury and Miro allegedly not playing ball stopped this Ricky Starks push from being better than it could have been. And I don't think that anyone thinks that Starks is beating MJF this week either. But AEW should know by know that they have a star in the making in Ricky Starks. And they would be absolutely blind and stupid not to capitalize on it. Especially now after the promo he delivered last week. Plus, now that the seeds have been laid there is no reason why this feud cannot be revisited multiple times again in the future.

This promo in itself was a vindication of everything me, [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and just about everyone who is a fan of Ricky has already said. Easily one of the very best promos in the history of the company, and that's saying something.

If you managed to miss it, you need to do yourself a favor and check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2zTsmUAYg

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If Punk v MJF was one of the best gimmick matches of the modern era, then FTR v The Briscoes in a Double Dog Collar match at last night's Final Battle has to be right up there. What a bloodbath and what a fight. *Might be* their best one yet, although I will have to think long and hard about that just because of how much I loved the other two. Especially the first one.

The imprint these two tag teams have left on tag team wrestling with their trilogy of matches will be remembered for time to come. Easily the greatest series of tag team matches of the modern era. All this feud was missing was that bloody blow-off match and boy oh boy did these two deliver in spades. It's a shame that it happened on such a small scale, with basically a two-day build because it was worthy of a much bigger platform.

Regardless, these two are the best tag teams going around. And when people talk about their legacy years from now these are the matches that they will point towards.

 

[shaz619]

View attachment 118095

This is what the future of AEW should be, and this is what pro-wrestling should be. Not a couple of gymnasts holding each other's hands and jumping around and doing choreographed gymnastics for the approval of an over-the-hill old man's 'star ratings'. No. It should be two guys face-to-face telling each other why they hate the other's guts and why you, as a viewer should care about them fighting. These are the two guys are who this company should be built around for the next how ever many years.

Just about everyone has sung the praises of MJF for years now. And its fairly obvious why. But the riposte that Ricky Starks delivered to MJF on Dynamite last week was something else. First he gets sliced and diced by MJF verbally. And mind you, there were some great insults in there..."dollar store Dwayne"..."the pebble". Starks waits for MJF to finish. Then he just calmly walks past him, shouldering him. He picks up a mic and then goes on to just verbally fillet Max: a guy who hasn't been verbally filleted in this fashion since he went head-to-head on the microphone with Punk.

And it wasn't just a verbal beating that Starks gave Max. It was the way he delivered his promo. There was ba gawd' babyface fire and passion in this promo. You could tell that he really believed what he was saying and the fans agreed.

It's unfortunate that this feud has zero build barring this face-to-face. Starks's injury and Miro allegedly not playing ball stopped this Ricky Starks push from being better than it could have been. And I don't think that anyone thinks that Starks is beating MJF this week either. But AEW should know by know that they have a star in the making in Ricky Starks. And they would be absolutely blind and stupid not to capitalize on it. Especially now after the promo he delivered last week. Plus, now that the seeds have been laid there is no reason why this feud cannot be revisited multiple times again in the future.

This promo in itself was a vindication of everything me, [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and just about everyone who is a fan of Ricky has already said. Easily one of the very best promos in the history of the company, and that's saying something.

If you managed to miss it, you need to do yourself a favor and check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2zTsmUAYg

I went out of my way to watch this segment. Agree with every word in your post, well said. There are a lot of comparisons with The Rock but when I first watched Ricky in the NWA, his promos reminded me a bit of Dusty, it’s that passion and baby face fire where you are fighting from underneath. The material itself wasn’t earth shattering but it’s the delivery, the emotion, the mannerisms, the logic and pouring his soul into the mic which made it so good, he is a special talent and this one segment is better then anything else he has done in the company so far and what I’ve been waiting for. Credit to MJF to, despite being relatively inexperienced in this business it amazes me how great he is in terms of not just getting himself over, but elevating others around him and holding his own against the vets.

MJF/Ricky is a PPV quality program but am happy with this as long as they do something better with Ricky after this brief touch with the main event scene, am happy with builds like these towards a TV match when done right and everyone comes out looking better. And as you say they can revisit this; imo after MJF’s lengthy reign, Ricky should be the one to beat him, that would be best for AEW, this is what their future should look like, this is the alternative we want to see and what the audience will love more than their circle jerk over gymnastics, Vince once said I will tell you what to like! and tbh in this case, it applies, the fans should get behind these stars and not their over hyped darlings, TK should take note, but fair play to them for showcasing these two special talents.

I am yet to see the dog collar tag, I had issues with a stream and video player yesterday

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I went out of my way to watch this segment. Agree with every word in your post, well said. There are a lot of comparisons with The Rock but when I first watched Ricky in the NWA, his promos reminded me a bit of Dusty, it’s that passion and baby face fire where you are fighting from underneath. The material itself wasn’t earth shattering but it’s the delivery, the emotion, the mannerisms, the logic and pouring his soul into the mic which made it so good, he is a special talent and this one segment is better then anything else he has done in the company so far and what I’ve been waiting for. Credit to MJF to, despite being relatively inexperienced in this business it amazes me how great he is in terms of not just getting himself over, but elevating others around him and holding his own against the vets.

MJF/Ricky is a PPV quality program but am happy with this as long as they do something better with Ricky after this brief touch with the main event scene, am happy with builds like these towards a TV match when done right and everyone comes out looking better. And as you say they can revisit this; imo after MJF’s lengthy reign, Ricky should be the one to beat him, that would be best for AEW, this is what their future should look like, this is the alternative we want to see and what the audience will love more than their circle jerk over gymnastics, Vince once said I will tell you what to like! and tbh in this case, it applies, the fans should get behind these stars and not their over hyped darlings, TK should take note, but fair play to them for showcasing these two special talents.

I am yet to see the dog collar tag, I had issues with a stream and video player yesterday

You hit the nail on the head with that Dusty comparison. Dusty had this incredible ability to connect with average people. And like you said, he did that by saying things that were generally simple or true to life, but what made them stand-out was that passion, emotion and mannerisms. Definitely see alot of that in Ricky.

MJF was great here. He is amazing at elevating others and we got to see that during the Wardlow feud as well. But I have to give special credit to Ricky here purely because he has not been booked or presented at MJF's level for the majority of his AEW run. But he came off like such a major star in this segment. And in a vacuum (just based on this segment) you could completely buy him as someone who is on MJF's level.

Yup I agree. I think they probably have Wardlow in mind for that. But in my personal opinion, Wardlow still isn't as much of a fully formed product as Starks. In the ring or on promos. And his booking needs to improve drastically as well. Plus, now I'm thinking that MJF will probably get his revenge on Wardlow by beating him in a title match considering MJF did the job for Wardlow the last time they met.

Btw, did you see the list MJF posted on Twitter, of the guys "who will never beat him"? It reads something like this:

- The Pebble
- The American Dips**t Dragon
- Warhoe
- Edward
- The Sensitive Cowboy
- Jungle Jabronie
- Darby the School Shooter
- Adam "My Brain Don't Work So I Can't Cope" Cole
- Mr. Clean Castagnoli

First off, I just burst out laughing after reading the list. And then I thought that this is a pretty good list of opponents for him for his 'Reign of Terror'. I mean there isn't a single opponent here that I wouldn't love to see in the ring with MJF...and that includes the Sensitive Cowboy. Because you just know MJF is going to blister him in some sort of creative way. Though I have to say that Kingston v MJF illicits the greatest level of curiosity in me. Just because of the promo battles we will get to see.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You hit the nail on the head with that Dusty comparison. Dusty had this incredible ability to connect with average people. And like you said, he did that by saying things that were generally simple or true to life, but what made them stand-out was that passion, emotion and mannerisms. Definitely see alot of that in Ricky.

MJF was great here. He is amazing at elevating others and we got to see that during the Wardlow feud as well. But I have to give special credit to Ricky here purely because he has not been booked or presented at MJF's level for the majority of his AEW run. But he came off like such a major star in this segment. And in a vacuum (just based on this segment) you could completely buy him as someone who is on MJF's level.

Yup I agree. I think they probably have Wardlow in mind for that. But in my personal opinion, Wardlow still isn't as much of a fully formed product as Starks. In the ring or on promos. And his booking needs to improve drastically as well. Plus, now I'm thinking that MJF will probably get his revenge on Wardlow by beating him in a title match considering MJF did the job for Wardlow the last time they met.

Btw, did you see the list MJF posted on Twitter, of the guys "who will never beat him"? It reads something like this:

- The Pebble
- The American Dips**t Dragon
- Warhoe
- Edward
- The Sensitive Cowboy
- Jungle Jabronie
- Darby the School Shooter
- Adam "My Brain Don't Work So I Can't Cope" Cole
- Mr. Clean Castagnoli

First off, I just burst out laughing after reading the list. And then I thought that this is a pretty good list of opponents for him for his 'Reign of Terror'. I mean there isn't a single opponent here that I wouldn't love to see in the ring with MJF...and that includes the Sensitive Cowboy. Because you just know MJF is going to blister him in some sort of creative way. Though I have to say that Kingston v MJF illicits the greatest level of curiosity in me. Just because of the promo battles we will get to see.

Jungle Jabronie, Darby the School Shooter and Sensitive Cowboy are probably the best ones )

 

[shaz619]

If Punk v MJF was one of the best gimmick matches of the modern era, then FTR v The Briscoes in a Double Dog Collar match at last night's Final Battle has to be right up there. What a bloodbath and what a fight. *Might be* their best one yet, although I will have to think long and hard about that just because of how much I loved the other two. Especially the first one.

The imprint these two tag teams have left on tag team wrestling with their trilogy of matches will be remembered for time to come. Easily the greatest series of tag team matches of the modern era. All this feud was missing was that bloody blow-off match and boy oh boy did these two deliver in spades. It's a shame that it happened on such a small scale, with basically a two-day build because it was worthy of a much bigger platform.

Regardless, these two are the best tag teams going around. And when people talk about their legacy years from now these are the matches that they will point towards.

This match blew me away and the politicking which occurred was a blessing in disguise because what we witnessed is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before, it wasn’t exactly wrestling psychology 101, these two teams redefined what that means. I thought this would be the main event but I forgot Jericho was booked on the card anyhow, I was expecting them to take their time and heighten their story in the ring incrementally, with a hot crowd and with them being so over, it’s a joy to be able to manipulate the audiences emotions and take your time with it. But what I think happened was, after Jericho had seen TK, these boys were going to be in the 2nd hour and get around 20 minutes or so. They decided they were going to have an absolute war, and it wasn’t even a fight, it’s usually a fight when you want to beat someone but not really hurt them right? these two teams wanted to straight up KILL each other. The athleticism, execution, professionalism and what I love more than anything in a match; INTENSITY! I’ve never seen a match quiet like this, I will see how it ages for me but right now it’s the best tag team gimmick match I’ve ever seen and easily one of the greatest matches of the 21st century surely, this can’t be beat for MOTY ?

I am still in shock, what a buzz. Oh mah gawd in heaven. Wish J.R was on commentary for this one

 

[shaz619]

Jungle Jabronie, Darby the School Shooter and Sensitive Cowboy are probably the best ones )

I haven’t seen this yet ) MJF is the gift that keeps on giving. What did you make of the main event at Winter is Coming? I really enjoyed the match, outside a few timing or communication issues it was pretty good, maybe Ricky could have come out with some more shine but am being greedy here, I think overall he comes out of this with his profile raised and MJF looks better than ever

 

[shaz619]

There are reports that Sasha Banks has signed with NJPW, I think this is a huge signing for the company and their new focus on the womens division, having bought out the IWJP Womens World Championship.

I have read a lot of rubbish about Sasha wanting this due to evil Vince and what not, and while is another colossal failure on Hunters part given his previous talent relations experience, I just think it’s a good move for Sasha in terms of minimal schedule, a fresh change and she will enjoy the change of scenery; we all know she is a huge fan of east asian culture.

It’s possible WWE offered her more money, but they would have wanted her to do more dates. Sasha doesn’t need the money, has multiple projects outside of WWE and from a legacy standpoint, she has done it all in the company including main eventing a mania and having arguably the greatest womens match of all time, her run in NXT alone was special and her feud with Charlotte changed the dynamic of the womens division in WWE.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Okay guys. Been missing out of wrestling world and PP for some time now. [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]
What's the storyline between FTR and Briscoes?

Have always liked Starks but I think The Elite won't let him get the spotlight due to their politics. Only MJF is the one who can tell them I am a bigger draw than you and can do what I want. I would definitely like him to win the title from MJF maybe 12 14 months from now.

Have heard all the matches for Mania have been locked already and so is the Rumble winner.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Honestly, I hate to admit that in my view the WM21 main event for me is arguably HaitchÂ’s best performance of his career because he produced for once when he had to carry the match and it came towards the back end of his reign of terror. From the standpoint of the build/feud, the psychology in the match was excellent and perfectly designed to sell Batista as an absolute animal and personified main eventer, the way he manhandled Haitch was a pleasure to watch and I will forever enjoy the scenes of a bloody Haitch being carried away by Ric as Batista stood tall. That PPV was the peak of my youth, WM 21 was special.

Mania 21 was my favorite in teens. Mania 18 remains my all time favorite because it was the first time I saw wrestling live (On TV offcourse). Mania 17 was probably better but I was only able to watch it after it had happened and results had come out.
If only Taker had returned as Deadman at Mania 21 rather than Mania 20, it would have been even better.

 

[shaz619]

Okay guys. Been missing out of wrestling world and PP for some time now. [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]
What's the storyline between FTR and Briscoes?

Have always liked Starks but I think The Elite won't let him get the spotlight due to their politics. Only MJF is the one who can tell them I am a bigger draw than you and can do what I want. I would definitely like him to win the title from MJF maybe 12 14 months from now.

Have heard all the matches for Mania have been locked already and so is the Rumble winner.

Redwood may be able to answer better but I would say the build to their matches generally have been very average, some of the pre-taped segments have been fantastic but on the whole, Khan has simply not given FTR/Briscoe’s any kind of reasonable build or coverage on national TV besides the usual PPV hype promos with past match footage. FTR and The Briscoe’s have made the most of the time they’ve been allocated out the ring though but certainly, from a storyline POV, things could be better. However, despite this handicap, FTR and The Briscoe’s have created their own narrative through their incredible matches, elevating the significance of each encounter and delivering every time in the ring, it also helps that their individual characters are strong and they are widely regarded as the two best tag teams in the world by the enthusiasts and with that audience they are over before the bell rings so there is some heat which would have otherwise been lacking without a proper build

 

[shaz619]

Mania 21 was my favorite in teens. Mania 18 remains my all time favorite because it was the first time I saw wrestling live (On TV offcourse). Mania 17 was probably better but I was only able to watch it after it had happened and results had come out.
If only Taker had returned as Deadman at Mania 21 rather than Mania 20, it would have been even better.

I second that and speaking of Taker, his match with Orton is a largely forgotten hidden gem on the card, I enjoyed that!

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I second that and speaking of Taker, his match with Orton is a largely forgotten hidden gem on the card, I enjoyed that!

Yes his match with Randy was definitely better but the hype and the reaction he got at Mania 20 against his match vs Kane, all the build up and seeing him revert to The Deadman gimmick with Bearer and the Druids gave me goosebumps. Kane played his part very well too.

 

[shaz619]

Yes his match with Randy was definitely better but the hype and the reaction he got at Mania 20 against his match vs Kane, all the build up and seeing him revert to The Deadman gimmick with Bearer and the Druids gave me goosebumps. Kane played his part very well too.

Yeah it was a huge deal and one hell of a spectacle, I remember marking out. Taker reinventing The Phenom and bringing that character back was executed beautifully, couldn’t have been done any better. The match was designed to signify the deadman’s return but Taker was shrewd enough to adapt his ring style and work how he always wanted to, best big man to lace a pair of boots

 

[shaz619]

John Cena is so charismatic man, look forward to his return on SD

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah it was a huge deal and one hell of a spectacle, I remember marking out. Taker reinventing The Phenom and bringing that character back was executed beautifully, couldn’t have been done any better. The match was designed to signify the deadman’s return but Taker was shrewd enough to adapt his ring style and work how he always wanted to, best big man to lace a pair of boots

Remember watching his entrance and the crowd started roaring. What a moment that was.

Think he set the benchmark for doing those big suicide dives among big men. Otherwise, big men were simply expected to wrestle a basic slam 1 slam 2 match. He set an example of how technically diverse and great storytellers big men could be. In addition to that, kept the locker room together during its most dangerous time. Arguably the third jewel in the crown of Attitude Era.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

John Cena is so charismatic man, look forward to his return on SD

My mood gets 3x better when Cena shows up in WWE. Such a positive presence.

Who will Cena face at Mania according to you? I think it might be Gable Steveson as WWE would want to "redo" that Cena-Angle moment.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This match blew me away and the politicking which occurred was a blessing in disguise because what we witnessed is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before, it wasn’t exactly wrestling psychology 101, these two teams redefined what that means. I thought this would be the main event but I forgot Jericho was booked on the card anyhow, I was expecting them to take their time and heighten their story in the ring incrementally, with a hot crowd and with them being so over, it’s a joy to be able to manipulate the audiences emotions and take your time with it. But what I think happened was, after Jericho had seen TK, these boys were going to be in the 2nd hour and get around 20 minutes or so. They decided they were going to have an absolute war, and it wasn’t even a fight, it’s usually a fight when you want to beat someone but not really hurt them right? these two teams wanted to straight up KILL each other. The athleticism, execution, professionalism and what I love more than anything in a match; INTENSITY! I’ve never seen a match quiet like this, I will see how it ages for me but right now it’s the best tag team gimmick match I’ve ever seen and easily one of the greatest matches of the 21st century surely, this can’t be beat for MOTY ?

I am still in shock, what a buzz. Oh mah gawd in heaven. Wish J.R was on commentary for this one

I've since gone back and watched this match again, and now I have no qualms saying that its probably one of the best gimmick matches ever. Infact even calling it a match feels weird because it was something else entirely. Everything felt so real probably because most of it was. I think even Meltzer should swallow his pride and just admit that this was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of a match that should at the very least, be MOTY.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I haven’t seen this yet ) MJF is the gift that keeps on giving. What did you make of the main event at Winter is Coming? I really enjoyed the match, outside a few timing or communication issues it was pretty good, maybe Ricky could have come out with some more shine but am being greedy here, I think overall he comes out of this with his profile raised and MJF looks better than ever

I really enjoyed it. And yeah, there were some obvious timing issues that stopped the match from going above that really good threshold. But all things considered, it was pretty good. I liked that they worked it like an old-school main-event world title match. And yeah, above all, both guys come out of this match looking better than they were going in. Which is mission accomplished in my eyes. Plus, you've set-up the next big feud at the end of the show which is an added bonus.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Okay guys. Been missing out of wrestling world and PP for some time now. [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]
What's the storyline between FTR and Briscoes?

Have always liked Starks but I think The Elite won't let him get the spotlight due to their politics. Only MJF is the one who can tell them I am a bigger draw than you and can do what I want. I would definitely like him to win the title from MJF maybe 12 14 months from now.

Have heard all the matches for Mania have been locked already and so is the Rumble winner.

Not much. FTR confronted The Briscoes after last year's Final Battle, back when ROH was owned by Cary Silken and was teetering on the edge of extinction. Months later when Tony took over ROH he booked these two for a match at the Supercard of Honor PPV. The match was a barn-burner built on a simple storyline of who is the best tag team? The succeeding matches, were sold on pretty much the same idea. The 2/3 falls stipulation was used to sell the second match and the third match had pretty much no build at all. It was finalized 2 days before the PPV and the idea was that this time around it's a fight.

So to sum it up, the storyline and build was pretty bare bones. The two teams even didn't exactly hate each other all that much considering they shook hands after two of their matches. But that just speaks to how good these two teams are that they were able to make the audience believe that they well and truly wanted to kill each other eventhough there was barely any build to suggest so.

Btw the reason this feud has no build is because some idiot in TBS thinks that something stupid that Jay Briscoe said on Twitter 9 years ago is the reason why The Briscoes shouldn't be on their network. Its perfectly alright though for a convicted felon/methhead/deathmatch mutant like Nick Cage to slice Jericho's forehead with a pizza cutter during a Dominos commercial.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Redwood may be able to answer better but I would say the build to their matches generally have been very average, some of the pre-taped segments have been fantastic but on the whole, Khan has simply not given FTR/Briscoe’s any kind of reasonable build or coverage on national TV besides the usual PPV hype promos with past match footage. FTR and The Briscoe’s have made the most of the time they’ve been allocated out the ring though but certainly, from a storyline POV, things could be better. However, despite this handicap, FTR and The Briscoe’s have created their own narrative through their incredible matches, elevating the significance of each encounter and delivering every time in the ring, it also helps that their individual characters are strong and they are widely regarded as the two best tag teams in the world by the enthusiasts and with that audience they are over before the bell rings so there is some heat which would have otherwise been lacking without a proper build

You nailed it with the ''they were able to build their own narrative through the matches''...I think that's probably the best way to look at it. Once you see match 1, you immediately want to see match 2. Once you see match 2, you immediately want to see match 3. And match 3 is so perfect that it puts the bow on the entire feud in the most perfect and bloody way imaginable.

But yes, one can't help but fantasize how great this feud could have been with some build and storyline. I mean either one of these teams are capable of generating molten lava heat.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My mood gets 3x better when Cena shows up in WWE. Such a positive presence.

Who will Cena face at Mania according to you? I think it might be Gable Steveson as WWE would want to "redo" that Cena-Angle moment.

Austin Theory. Just a guess, but that's what I'm thinking.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Austin Theory. Just a guess, but that's what I'm thinking.

Hoping it's not against a youngster. He's put over everyone way too many guys in last 5 years. Want a well wrestled match where the winner wouldn't be already known.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hoping it's not against a youngster. He's put over everyone way too many guys in last 5 years. Want a well wrestled match where the winner wouldn't be already known.

I don't know if there are too many big matches that he can have at this point. Who hasn't he wrestled when we talk about the big names? And who knows, it might just end up being a star-making performance for Theory.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't know if there are too many big matches that he can have at this point. Who hasn't he wrestled when we talk about the big names? And who knows, it might just end up being a star-making performance for Theory.

It's just that I don't want Cena to come back only to lose for the 8th or 9th time now.

Cena's wrestling style is such that he doesn't need to be fully fit or even suffer from ring rust. At this moment, I'd rather like an Edge vs Cena at Mania regardless of how stupid that seems. Cause I know these two have excellent chemistry and can tear each other apart on mic as well.

Even Cena vs (Stone Cold)Austin, I won't mind. But Cena sold way too much for Roman. But again it's cena vs austin.

However I do think Cena likes Theory.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Regarding Rumble, I think Big E, Randy and Cody will be the surprises. Maybe Ciampa too.

 

[shaz619]

I've since gone back and watched this match again, and now I have no qualms saying that its probably one of the best gimmick matches ever. Infact even calling it a match feels weird because it was something else entirely. Everything felt so real probably because most of it was. I think even Meltzer should swallow his pride and just admit that this was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of a match that should at the very least, be MOTY.

I would put it right up there with the TLC at WM17, I prefer this but it’s that level. I’ve never seen a match like that in my lifetime, I don’t know if it will ever happen again, I do feel as though this wasn’t planned and they just called it out there after a conversation or two beforehand. I hope it’s not another 4.75* from that old weasel

 

[shaz619]

I don't know if there are too many big matches that he can have at this point. Who hasn't he wrestled when we talk about the big names? And who knows, it might just end up being a star-making performance for Theory.

I don’t know if Reigns losing the titles is in the plans, if he is then Cody is a candidate, and if that’s the case he really would need a rocket in a short amount of time which am not sure I trust the regime to pull off even overlooking petty grudges because you’d agree now that these do exist. I am more of a fan of when there’s a longer build, allows the baby to chase and gain heat, something like a Cody first world title win can only be done once and it has to be special given his family history, there is scope for an emotionally charged angle. Generally, something like this is rare given short attention spans and so many writers on WWE’s creative, this is why imo the bloodline / Zayn story is so special whether it was intended or not.

Maybe they may recognise they want some more time to focus on a Cody title chase, not saying it wouldn’t work now but there is an argument to build a bit more towards it. And if that’s the case, I really think the next option should be Cena vs Cody, I feel this would be a fantastic programme and it is very likely to deliver on the night to, Cody would also get to share the stage with a huge star

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don’t know if Reigns losing the titles is in the plans, if he is then Cody is a candidate, and if that’s the case he really would need a rocket in a short amount of time which am not sure I trust the regime to pull off even overlooking petty grudges because you’d agree now that these do exist. I am more of a fan of when there’s a longer build, allows the baby to chase and gain heat, something like a Cody first world title win can only be done once and it has to be special given his family history, there is scope for an emotionally charged angle. Generally, something like this is rare given short attention spans and so many writers on WWE’s creative, this is why imo the bloodline / Zayn story is so special whether it was intended or not.

Maybe they may recognise they want some more time to focus on a Cody title chase, not saying it wouldn’t work now but there is an argument to build a bit more towards it. And if that’s the case, I really think the next option should be Cena vs Cody, I feel this would be a fantastic programme and it is very likely to deliver on the night to, Cody would also get to share the stage with a huge star

It's a good match...Cena v Rhodes. But where's the heat? With a guy like Cody, I think you need to tell that comeback story, even if its not for the belts and against some other dastardly heel. I don't think its an especially good idea putting him up against one of the most beloved stars in the recent history of the company. Which is why I think right now Cena v Theory seems like the most logical match. They're trying to build Theory up and there are some real parallels that they can channel with these two. Plus, the benefits of Cena making Theory would be huge in the long-run for the company.

You can even set the match up after the Cena/KO v Reigns/Zayn tag match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I would put it right up there with the TLC at WM17, I prefer this but it’s that level. I’ve never seen a match like that in my lifetime, I don’t know if it will ever happen again, I do feel as though this wasn’t planned and they just called it out there after a conversation or two beforehand. I hope it’s not another 4.75* from that old weasel

5.5 stars. I guess some matches are so great that even that old weasel can't help but agree.

Yeah, its definitely in that tier. For me though, the ladder match these teams had at SummerSlam 2002 is the better one. So I'd put it one par with that.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It's just that I don't want Cena to come back only to lose for the 8th or 9th time now.

Cena's wrestling style is such that he doesn't need to be fully fit or even suffer from ring rust. At this moment, I'd rather like an Edge vs Cena at Mania regardless of how stupid that seems. Cause I know these two have excellent chemistry and can tear each other apart on mic as well.

Even Cena vs (Stone Cold)Austin, I won't mind. But Cena sold way too much for Roman. But again it's cena vs austin.

However I do think Cena likes Theory.

Cena is at the point where a loss does not hurt him. It's the same thing with Lesnar and Goldberg. They're legends. An ideal situation would be Cena and Theory having a trilogy of matches, where they can trade wins. But I don't think Cena's schedule would allow that.

At the end of the day though, making new stars is the lifeblood of any wrestling company. And when I look at WWE right now there aren't alot of young guys that look like they could be future stars besides Theory. And getting made by a guy like Cena is honestly the best thing that could happen to him right now.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

5.5 stars. I guess some matches are so great that even that old weasel can't help but agree.

Yeah, its definitely in that tier. For me though, the ladder match these teams had at SummerSlam 2002 is the better one. So I'd put it one par with that.

*SummerSlam 2000

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Cena is at the point where a loss does not hurt him. It's the same thing with Lesnar and Goldberg. They're legends. An ideal situation would be Cena and Theory having a trilogy of matches, where they can trade wins. But I don't think Cena's schedule would allow that.

At the end of the day though, making new stars is the lifeblood of any wrestling company. And when I look at WWE right now there aren't alot of young guys that look like they could be future stars besides Theory. And getting made by a guy like Cena is honestly the best thing that could happen to him right now.

Nah, at some point, the losses do start to hurt a legend's legacy. Goldberg has become a joke since mania 33. He was the guy who wouldn't lose a match, and then he was losing clean to Braun, Lashley, Drew, Roman, Taker on a go. Like having Roman and drew beat him would have made sense, but losing to braun and lashley was disappointing.

Same way, Rey rarely ever wins now. Putting him in mid card is fine, but don't have him become a jobber.

I like how they've booked Edge.

 

[shaz619]

It's a good match...Cena v Rhodes. But where's the heat? With a guy like Cody, I think you need to tell that comeback story, even if its not for the belts and against some other dastardly heel. I don't think its an especially good idea putting him up against one of the most beloved stars in the recent history of the company. Which is why I think right now Cena v Theory seems like the most logical match. They're trying to build Theory up and there are some real parallels that they can channel with these two. Plus, the benefits of Cena making Theory would be huge in the long-run for the company.

You can even set the match up after the Cena/KO v Reigns/Zayn tag match.

Cena isn’t full time anymore and combined with Cody being so over right now, I feel like this would be one of those rare occasions a face v face match would work. It’s a dream match which would really deliver on the night, it would be a good way to start his comeback tale, Cody has beaten some good names, but will he be able to overcome Super Cena? does he have what it takes to show he belongs at the top level against a huge name? you know Cena would sell the hell out of his on the mic and the promo battles would be awesome.

I do agree Theory probably needs the match more than Cody, but Cena/Cody for me gets the juices flowing from a feud and in-ring POV

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Cena isn’t full time anymore and combined with Cody being so over right now, I feel like this would be one of those rare occasions a face v face match would work. It’s a dream match which would really deliver on the night, it would be a good way to start his comeback tale, Cody has beaten some good names, but will he be able to overcome Super Cena? does he have what it takes to show he belongs at the top level against a huge name? you know Cena would sell the hell out of his on the mic and the promo battles would be awesome.

I do agree Theory probably needs the match more than Cody, but Cena/Cody for me gets the juices flowing from a feud and in-ring POV

It would be a great match and the promo battles will be huge. But face vs face feuds rarely work with both of the guys super lovable. Plus Cena has been jobbing for way too long now. If he isn't facing Roman, then Bray, Finn, Randy or a heel Edge would be awesome. Actually Theory vs Cody would be nice as well. Both guys looking to become the top guys of WWE. One up comer, the other returning after years.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think Trips need to start some crossovers with other promotions who aren't in direct competition with WWE or say they are. Promotions like NJPW, Pro Wrestling Noah, Dragongate or even Impact.

Trips is a big fan of NJPW and indies. And they can move over from Vince's philosophy of not helping other promotions' business.

A feud of Okada vs Seth, Randy vs Tanahashi, Takagi vs Edge etc would be great fan service. They can have guys like Angle, MVP, Regal etc be their managers. They were able to hype up Akebono back in 2004.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Nah, at some point, the losses do start to hurt a legend's legacy. Goldberg has become a joke since mania 33. He was the guy who wouldn't lose a match, and then he was losing clean to Braun, Lashley, Drew, Roman, Taker on a go. Like having Roman and drew beat him would have made sense, but losing to braun and lashley was disappointing.

Same way, Rey rarely ever wins now. Putting him in mid card is fine, but don't have him become a jobber.

I like how they've booked Edge.

I don't think that's because of the losses though. That's probably because he can barely do a 5 minute match without blowing up and all his matches are 3 minute big move matches. At the end of the day though, he's still Goldberg and nothing changes that. Even Lesnar lost pretty much every time to Reigns in the last 5 matches these guys had. But whenever he comes back, people are more awestruck by his aura and presence than the memory of Reigns beating him the last time they met.

Rey is different. He has always been booked like trash. Even when he was World Champion

And I don't think they intended for Braun to beat Goldberg. From what I recall, it was supposed to be Reigns v Goldberg at Mania but Reigns had to pull out and they had to get the belt off Goldberg to preserve his 3 match a year deal.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Trips need to start some crossovers with other promotions who aren't in direct competition with WWE or say they are. Promotions like NJPW, Pro Wrestling Noah, Dragongate or even Impact.

Trips is a big fan of NJPW and indies. And they can move over from Vince's philosophy of not helping other promotions' business.

A feud of Okada vs Seth, Randy vs Tanahashi, Takagi vs Edge etc would be great fan service. They can have guys like Angle, MVP, Regal etc be their managers. They were able to hype up Akebono back in 2004.

I don't think WWE would go for that. Besides a business stand-point where WWE sees themselves as dominating global markets one day (Japan being one of them), the style that New Japan guys do is very stiff and not in line with the kind of safe style that WWE wrestlers are told to work.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Cena isn’t full time anymore and combined with Cody being so over right now, I feel like this would be one of those rare occasions a face v face match would work. It’s a dream match which would really deliver on the night, it would be a good way to start his comeback tale, Cody has beaten some good names, but will he be able to overcome Super Cena? does he have what it takes to show he belongs at the top level against a huge name? you know Cena would sell the hell out of his on the mic and the promo battles would be awesome.

I do agree Theory probably needs the match more than Cody, but Cena/Cody for me gets the juices flowing from a feud and in-ring POV

I dunno. I just think Cody against a heel would be 10x more interesting. Face v face matches feuds rarely deliver. Because you have to dig deep to find a reason for two good guys to fight. And in 2022 we've all gone past two guys fighting over who is the best. This strikes me as a match more suited to SummerSlam than Mania.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't think that's because of the losses though. That's probably because he can barely do a 5 minute match without blowing up and all his matches are 3 minute big move matches. At the end of the day though, he's still Goldberg and nothing changes that. Even Lesnar lost pretty much every time to Reigns in the last 5 matches these guys had. But whenever he comes back, people are more awestruck by his aura and presence than the memory of Reigns beating him the last time they met.

Rey is different. He has always been booked like trash. Even when he was World Champion

And I don't think they intended for Braun to beat Goldberg. From what I recall, it was supposed to be Reigns v Goldberg at Mania but Reigns had to pull out and they had to get the belt off Goldberg to preserve his 3 match a year deal.

Tbh the only reason Lesnar has been able to still feel like a big deal since consistently losing to Roman for last one year is because he's Lesnar, who's arguably the best one to rise to the very top in combat sports.

Goldberg's return against Lashley and Roman barely created any stir.

Goldberg did wrestle an unconventional match against Lashley though (the first one that he lost), it was a 10 minute orthodox wrestling match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't think WWE would go for that. Besides a business stand-point where WWE sees themselves as dominating global markets one day (Japan being one of them), the style that New Japan guys do is very stiff and not in line with the kind of safe style that WWE wrestlers are told to work.

Pretty sure the likes of Okada, Tanahashi and Takagi can adapt. They are not like Minoru Suzuki stiff. Drew, Sheamus, Walter, Brock etc wrestle stiff as well.

There's no competition between NJPW and WWE. It was Vince who thought WWE is its own thing. Even then, they were giving Bryan the leeway to go wrestle in Japan while under contract with WWE. WWE isn't really that big in Japan. And NJPW is definitely not in competition with WWE in NA or even Europe.

 

[shaz619]

Pretty sure the likes of Okada, Tanahashi and Takagi can adapt. They are not like Minoru Suzuki stiff. Drew, Sheamus, Walter, Brock etc wrestle stiff as well.

There's no competition between NJPW and WWE. It was Vince who thought WWE is its own thing. Even then, they were giving Bryan the leeway to go wrestle in Japan while under contract with WWE. WWE isn't really that big in Japan. And NJPW is definitely not in competition with WWE in NA or even Europe.

What makes Okada and Tanahashi so good is that they don’t brainlessly work stiff and presume that’s great ring work. Japanese wrestling does get stereotyped a lot in the modern era but these two stand out because they value North American wrestling psychology and have adapted that already in their matches to great effect. Besides, in recent times, has a Japanese wrestler under contract with a Japanese company been booked better in the US then Jushin Thunder Liger at Takeover ? majority of the Japanese stars have been made to look like chumps in other promotions. I actually would trust the WWE to present Okada and Tanahashi much better then anyone else right now