The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[BunnyRabbit]

The Rock in his first feud with Cena was just the same as early 2000’s Rock, very entertaining. But in his second feud with Cena and Punk, he began to approach segments like he was on a Hollywood set and began to overly script everything to a tee which negated some of his natural ability on the mic, Cena famously pointed out lines on his forearm in a shoot promo

Nah. Dwayne in his return was more like a parody of his earlier self. It's just that it fit PG product so well. Otherwise AE Rock was the best thing on mic ever. In 2011-13, he was simply relying on catchphrases and his tried and tested insults. In AE, there were some serious promos he used to cut which were amazing.

Going PG was a double edged sword. On one hand, it helped the company grow and become a bigger and richer as the target audience became the kids and the elders. On the other hand, the quality of product nosedived.

 

[shaz619]

Nah. Dwayne in his return was more like a parody of his earlier self. It's just that it fit PG product so well. Otherwise AE Rock was the best thing on mic ever. In 2011-13, he was simply relying on catchphrases and his tried and tested insults. In AE, there were some serious promos he used to cut which were amazing.

Going PG was a double edged sword. On one hand, it helped the company grow and become a bigger and richer as the target audience became the kids and the elders. On the other hand, the quality of product nosedived.

Not at all, especially during the build to WM 27. I don’t know what happened between then and WM 28 but something caused him to shift and part of it was getting caught up in his Hollywood approach to his movies which negated his promos. The other issue was he wasn’t there often enough and some material is going to get recycled naturally. But given how charismatic he is, it didn’t matter given his connection with the audience, he can coast on that. From a feud stand point, on the whole I thought Rock/Cena 1 was compelling.

 

[The_KING]

Not at all, especially during the build to WM 27. I don’t know what happened between then and WM 28 but something caused him to shift and part of it was getting caught up in his Hollywood approach to his movies which negated his promos. The other issue was he wasn’t there often enough and some material is going to get recycled naturally. But given how charismatic he is, it didn’t matter given his connection with the audience, he can coast on that. From a feud stand point, on the whole I thought Rock/Cena 1 was compelling.

Rock vs Cena 2 didn’t need to happen. It was supposed to be a once in a lifetime thing, which is what the first match was billed as. By having the second match, they devalued the whole thing. And besides, the second match was quite underwhelming from what I remember.

 

[sweep_shot]

Rock vs Cena 2 didn’t need to happen. It was supposed to be a once in a lifetime thing, which is what the first match was billed as. By having the second match, they devalued the whole thing. And besides, the second match was quite underwhelming from what I remember.

I agree.

I guess they wanted to make Cena look good. So, they gave him one win.

But, the truth is, Cena is not at Rock's level and it was foolish to make Rock lose clean to Cena.

 

[shaz619]

Rock vs Cena 2 didn’t need to happen. It was supposed to be a once in a lifetime thing, which is what the first match was billed as. By having the second match, they devalued the whole thing. And besides, the second match was quite underwhelming from what I remember.

The thing is it was always going to happen after the financial records they broke at WM 28 and I had no issue with the two main eventing, I just felt it was a travesty they didn’t add CM Punk to the match; it’s not like it would have been a left field choice because Punk already had stories weaved with both men and had his record breaking title run in the same period. I still feel they would have broken all the records. Politics kept Punk out the match because he was disliked by HHH and at the same time they needed someone to work with Taker, Punk/Taker ended up being a classic match and the match of the night. I agree with you that the Cena/Rock 2 feud itself was lacklustre, the build to that PPV was horrible, they were all coasting on that one match sadly and the main event itself failed to deliver, finisher after finisher that was it

 

[shaz619]

I agree.

I guess they wanted to make Cena look good. So, they gave him one win.

But, the truth is, Cena is not at Rock's level and it was foolish to make Rock lose clean to Cena.

Cena was already a huge star at that point and I think given how long the Rock has been out since then, it made sense to have Cena go over

 

[sweep_shot]

Cena was already a huge star at that point and I think given how long the Rock has been out since then, it made sense to have Cena go over

I know Cena was a star but I feel like he should've never gotten a big main event push. He should've stayed in mid-card more. I mean it was okay to give him the WWE title once or twice but they overdid it.

It is a shame someone like JBL was WWE champion only once while Cena got to be the 16-time world champion.

 

[Hitman]

I know Cena was a star but I feel like he should've never gotten a big main event push. He should've stayed in mid-card more. I mean it was okay to give him the WWE title once or twice but they overdid it.

It is a shame someone like JBL was WWE champion only once while Cena got to be the 16-time world champion.

I quit watching the product around 2007. But I enjoyed watching JBL far more than Cena. Don’t know how Cena turned out since then, but until then he was pathetic in the ring, annoying on the mic, and had a gimmick that repulsed grown men.

He sold a hell lot of merchandise, and that’s one big reason why Vince put the title on him 16 times.

 

[sweep_shot]

I quit watching the product around 2007. But I enjoyed watching JBL far more than Cena. Don’t know how Cena turned out since then, but until then he was pathetic in the ring, annoying on the mic, and had a gimmick that repulsed grown men.

He sold a hell lot of merchandise, and that’s one big reason why Vince put the title on him 16 times.

Cena was good when he did the thugonomics gimmick. His marine gimmick was always boring to me.

WWE tried to portray him as the new generation Hogan or The Rock. But, he was never at the level of Hulkamania or The Rock.

I also think JBL was far more entertaining and more capable in the ring than Cena.

 

[Hitman]

Cena was good when he did the thugonomics gimmick. His marine gimmick was always boring to me.

WWE tried to portray him as the new generation Hogan or The Rock. But, he was never at the level of Hulkamania or The Rock.

I also think JBL was far more entertaining and more capable in the ring than Cena.

Cena had a good character as a heel early in his career. As a face, he was unbearable. JBL and Cena were both below par in the ring. But JBL had an excellent gimmick, and was a fantastic heel. Eddie Guerrero at that time was the fantastic combination of character and in ring work.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Am not sure it was KO who had to give way for Kofi, it was reported widely that Mustafa Ali was being considered for the title match until he got injured from the top of my head

I heard it was KO too. He was supposed to be in a feud with Bryan, with him winning the big one at Mania.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I bought wwe 2k22 a few months ago as well. Only got to play for 10 mins. But the controls have felt a bit of hybrid of svr2006 and wwe svr 2k10 and 2k11 which is actually a good thing.

Will play properly from Feb hopefully.

Yeah. Definitely an improvement.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Cena had a good character as a heel early in his career. As a face, he was unbearable. JBL and Cena were both below par in the ring. But JBL had an excellent gimmick, and was a fantastic heel. Eddie Guerrero at that time was the fantastic combination of character and in ring work.

As much as I love Eddie during the latter part of his career he wasn't one tenth the performer he was during the early part of his career. His character-work had ofcourse reached a new level during his main-event run. But for me, he simply wasn't the same in the ring after the car crash and his subsequent struggles with addiction.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I know Cena was a star but I feel like he should've never gotten a big main event push. He should've stayed in mid-card more. I mean it was okay to give him the WWE title once or twice but they overdid it.

It is a shame someone like JBL was WWE champion only once while Cena got to be the 16-time world champion.

JBL only really became a main-eventer during the tail-end of his career. For the most part he was struggling to stay relevant in the undercard. And its not like JBL wasn't booked well. He dominated SmackDown and made it relevant again after the departure of Brock. He was champion for close to a year. And when the time came, he put over Cena like a million bucks. Which is exactly what a guy in his role should have done.

As for Cena, he did drop down to the midcard after 2013. And he actually made the US Title mean something there when he was having great matches on RAW against midcarders and elevating them in the process.

 

[sweep_shot]

JBL only really became a main-eventer during the tail-end of his career. For the most part he was struggling to stay relevant in the undercard. And its not like JBL wasn't booked well. He dominated SmackDown and made it relevant again after the departure of Brock. He was champion for close to a year. And when the time came, he put over Cena like a million bucks. Which is exactly what a guy in his role should have done.

As for Cena, he did drop down to the midcard after 2013. And he actually made the US Title mean something there when he was having great matches on RAW against midcarders and elevating them in the process.

JBL should've won the WWE championship a few more times. He was pretty good till 2008-2009.

Also, another blunder was moving Cena to RAW (2005). Cena was more suited to SmackDown.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think that regardless of what the plans are at mania, I’ve not read reports or anything on certain wrestlers availability etc but that Sami Zayn should win the RR, I think it would enable the most thrilling narrative possible for mania.

If they were thinking of Cody being in a title match, they can still achieve that because there are two nights.

The momentum is with Sami right now and am afraid a tag title match vs the USOS with KO as his partner is not a strong enough pay off.

Haven't seen the Rumble yet but if I was to predict WWE's booking, which for the most part is, predictable. I would say that Cody will win it. And they'll probably not even put Sami in the match to ensure that he doesn't steal the show from Cody's big return. Which won't be hard to do. You can do an angle in the Owens/Reigns match, which I'm guessing will open the show and write Sami off.

If it were up to me, Sami would win the Rumble and beat Reigns at Mania for both belts. But I just don't think WWE will go for that. Plus defending the belts on both nights doesn't make alot of sense to me. The whole point of being Undisputed Champion is that both belts are defended and can be won at the same time. Which is why I'd say Cody v Reigns at Mania.

Considering Elimination Chamber is in Montreal, that seems like the most likely place for Sami v Reigns.

And I disagree, I think Usos v KO/Zayn is pretty strong. When you think about it Sami has a longer story with the Usos than he does with Roman. I don't think he even interacted with Roman for the first three months that he was involved in this storyline.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It was great to see Cody back in action. Hearing "wrestling has more than one royal family" was pretty uplifting for me. Can't wait for Cody to dethrone Roman finally.

Rumble was fine. Could have been better. Was distinctly different from Vince's rumbles. Was easily better than last year's trainwreck (not a big thing). Big names like Lesnar, Lashley, Edge didn't spend much time in there which was fine. Randy and AJ were sorely missed.

 

[shaz619]

I heard it was KO too. He was supposed to be in a feud with Bryan, with him winning the big one at Mania.

This is an article from recently but if you go back to around that period I believe there were a number of reports which indicated those were the plans:

https://www.ringsidenews.com/2023/0...ted-to-face-mustafa-ali-in-wwe-title-program/

 

[shaz619]

Cena was good when he did the thugonomics gimmick. His marine gimmick was always boring to me.

WWE tried to portray him as the new generation Hogan or The Rock. But, he was never at the level of Hulkamania or The Rock.

I also think JBL was far more entertaining and more capable in the ring than Cena.

Cena had a good character as a heel early in his career. As a face, he was unbearable. JBL and Cena were both below par in the ring. But JBL had an excellent gimmick, and was a fantastic heel. Eddie Guerrero at that time was the fantastic combination of character and in ring work.

Cena’s superhuman booking was deplorable, during that time am sure he could have dropped the belt a few times without hurting his aura. In terms of talent his charisma is up there with the greatest of all time, he vastly improved in the ring during the 2010’s and only he could have pulled off a face character for as long as he did, his mic ability has never been in question and the promos got even better. JBL had a good run but his gimmick had a short shelf life, he wouldn’t have been able to fill Cena’s shoes and Eddie wasn’t in the right place mentally.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Haven't seen the Rumble yet but if I was to predict WWE's booking, which for the most part is, predictable. I would say that Cody will win it. And they'll probably not even put Sami in the match to ensure that he doesn't steal the show from Cody's big return. Which won't be hard to do. You can do an angle in the Owens/Reigns match, which I'm guessing will open the show and write Sami off.

If it were up to me, Sami would win the Rumble and beat Reigns at Mania for both belts. But I just don't think WWE will go for that. Plus defending the belts on both nights doesn't make alot of sense to me. The whole point of being Undisputed Champion is that both belts are defended and can be won at the same time. Which is why I'd say Cody v Reigns at Mania.

Considering Elimination Chamber is in Montreal, that seems like the most likely place for Sami v Reigns.

And I disagree, I think Usos v KO/Zayn is pretty strong. When you think about it Sami has a longer story with the Usos than he does with Roman. I don't think he even interacted with Roman for the first three months that he was involved in this storyline.

You were 100% correct.

 

[shaz619]

As much as I love Eddie during the latter part of his career he wasn't one tenth the performer he was during the early part of his career. His character-work had ofcourse reached a new level during his main-event run. But for me, he simply wasn't the same in the ring after the car crash and his subsequent struggles with addiction.

His ring work was a lot more psychological towards the end, he used his ring IQ a lot more, it comes down to preference but I really felt that Eddie was one hell of an all round performer towards the end of his career, I don’t know if how he worked in the early part of his career would be suited to the main event and RA’s emphasis on narrative based wrestling. However, Eddie was his own worst enemy, he put WAY too much pressure on himself as champion, I think that given the standards he expected of himself it somewhat impacted his matches but I still thoroughly enjoyed his work, for example I loved the WM21 opener with Rey but Eddie despised it, substance abuse, addiction to pain killers and unnecessary pressure put him a bad way but even in his worst, very few can wish to work even 50% of what he could produce, technically and aesthetically just on another level man, we would have got HBK v Eddie at WM 22 and that in my view would have been match of the century.

Cena doesn’t get enough credit, his work ethic, reliability and ability to soak up the pressure, remain disciplined and that guy for them will never be matched and as a talent he improved vastly and belongs there with the greats

 

[shaz619]

Haven't seen the Rumble yet but if I was to predict WWE's booking, which for the most part is, predictable. I would say that Cody will win it. And they'll probably not even put Sami in the match to ensure that he doesn't steal the show from Cody's big return. Which won't be hard to do. You can do an angle in the Owens/Reigns match, which I'm guessing will open the show and write Sami off.

If it were up to me, Sami would win the Rumble and beat Reigns at Mania for both belts. But I just don't think WWE will go for that. Plus defending the belts on both nights doesn't make alot of sense to me. The whole point of being Undisputed Champion is that both belts are defended and can be won at the same time. Which is why I'd say Cody v Reigns at Mania.

Considering Elimination Chamber is in Montreal, that seems like the most likely place for Sami v Reigns.

And I disagree, I think Usos v KO/Zayn is pretty strong. When you think about it Sami has a longer story with the Usos than he does with Roman. I don't think he even interacted with Roman for the first three months that he was involved in this storyline.

This is mostly what happened and most likely direction. What I wanted was wishful, Cody’s triumph was anti-climatic but the saving grace is that the main event angle was outstanding.

 

[shaz619]

It was great to see Cody back in action. Hearing "wrestling has more than one royal family" was pretty uplifting for me. Can't wait for Cody to dethrone Roman finally.

Rumble was fine. Could have been better. Was distinctly different from Vince's rumbles. Was easily better than last year's trainwreck (not a big thing). Big names like Lesnar, Lashley, Edge didn't spend much time in there which was fine. Randy and AJ were sorely missed.

Rumble match was ok but not fun at all.

I watched the womens last 5 min happy Rhea won, was Stacy Keibler, Torrie, Trish, Lita and Kelly Kelly in it by any chance? if so may have to rewatch

 

[The_KING]

I know Cena was a star but I feel like he should've never gotten a big main event push. He should've stayed in mid-card more. I mean it was okay to give him the WWE title once or twice but they overdid it.

It is a shame someone like JBL was WWE champion only once while Cena got to be the 16-time world champion.

It was under Cena’s decade of doom from 2005-14, where WWE lost like half of its audience. I know it was entirely his fault, but he was the face of the company at that time so he has take a lot of the blame.

He was never remotely interesting to me. His stupid gimmick that was designed to appeal to single digit kids never appealed to me. His move set in the ring was lane. His entrance music and his colourful outfits were awful too. Even the doctor of thuganomics was Cena acting like a poor man’s Eminem, although that gimmick was compelling.

JBL was a great heel and he got the reaction that a heel should get. Everyone hated him. I was a big fan of JBL, but he wasn’t really meant to be a top guy for long. The only reason he became the wwe champion was because Triple H didn’t want to work smackdown. Still, I am glad that he became the wwe champion once.

 

[The_KING]

The thing is it was always going to happen after the financial records they broke at WM 28 and I had no issue with the two main eventing, I just felt it was a travesty they didn’t add CM Punk to the match; it’s not like it would have been a left field choice because Punk already had stories weaved with both men and had his record breaking title run in the same period. I still feel they would have broken all the records. Politics kept Punk out the match because he was disliked by HHH and at the same time they needed someone to work with Taker, Punk/Taker ended up being a classic match and the match of the night. I agree with you that the Cena/Rock 2 feud itself was lacklustre, the build to that PPV was horrible, they were all coasting on that one match sadly and the main event itself failed to deliver, finisher after finisher that was it

I am glad that Punk wasn’t in the main event that year and had a match with Taker instead. That was the best match of the night, as you said and Cena vs Rock 2 was mediocre.

Punk Taker wrestlemania match was also Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

 

[shaz619]

I am glad that Punk wasn’t in the main event that year and had a match with Taker instead. That was the best match of the night, as you said and Cena vs Rock 2 was mediocre.

Punk Taker wrestlemania match was also Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

I agree but if the main event was Rock v Cena v Punk in a triple threat for the title I feel it would be better, I’d have Taker work with either Jericho or Bryan

 

[sweep_shot]

I agree but if the main event was Rock v Cena v Punk in a triple threat for the title I feel it would be better, I’d have Taker work with either Jericho or Bryan

Would've loved to see a Taker vs Jericho in Wrestlemania.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Rumble match was ok but not fun at all.

I watched the womens last 5 min happy Rhea won, was Stacy Keibler, Torrie, Trish, Lita and Kelly Kelly in it by any chance? if so may have to rewatch

I only saw men's rumble and clips of bloodline sami/ko post match angle.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I am glad that Punk wasn’t in the main event that year and had a match with Taker instead. That was the best match of the night, as you said and Cena vs Rock 2 was mediocre.

Punk Taker wrestlemania match was also Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

Taker went out on a high in that cinematic match/brawl against AJ. That and the firefly fun house match were the only two good "matches" that Mania. Shame it came infront of no crowd.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Haven't seen the Rumble yet but if I was to predict WWE's booking, which for the most part is, predictable. I would say that Cody will win it. And they'll probably not even put Sami in the match to ensure that he doesn't steal the show from Cody's big return. Which won't be hard to do. You can do an angle in the Owens/Reigns match, which I'm guessing will open the show and write Sami off.

If it were up to me, Sami would win the Rumble and beat Reigns at Mania for both belts. But I just don't think WWE will go for that. Plus defending the belts on both nights doesn't make alot of sense to me. The whole point of being Undisputed Champion is that both belts are defended and can be won at the same time. Which is why I'd say Cody v Reigns at Mania.

Considering Elimination Chamber is in Montreal, that seems like the most likely place for Sami v Reigns.

And I disagree, I think Usos v KO/Zayn is pretty strong. When you think about it Sami has a longer story with the Usos than he does with Roman. I don't think he even interacted with Roman for the first three months that he was involved in this storyline.

You're either Trips disguised as a PPer or you know the product too well. (if it's the latter, it can hit the enjoyment factor a bit)

 

[shaz619]

Keeping it real, outside the main event, I think that I wont ever get back those 2-2.5 hours of my life back. It’s not something you should have to watch live, maybe am getting old but the PPV was average.

WWE is still predictable under Hunter, at least Vince made the big shows fun overall.

 

[shaz619]

I am glad that Punk wasn’t in the main event that year and had a match with Taker instead. That was the best match of the night, as you said and Cena vs Rock 2 was mediocre.

Punk Taker wrestlemania match was also Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

I think post WM 29, Taker fought Lesnar in a WM 30 rematch at SummerSlam which was excellent although Taker took some unnecessary bumps in it

 

[shaz619]

Would've loved to see a Taker vs Jericho in Wrestlemania.

I believe it was rumoured around 2009ish but plans changed due to HBK’s last hurrah

 

[The_KING]

Taker went out on a high in that cinematic match/brawl against AJ. That and the firefly fun house match were the only two good "matches" that Mania. Shame it came infront of no crowd.

That AJ match was fun but it wasn’t a standard wrestling match. In terms of standard wrestling matches, the Punk match at WM 29 was Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

 

[sweep_shot]

That AJ match was fun but it wasn’t a standard wrestling match. In terms of standard wrestling matches, the Punk match at WM 29 was Taker’s last great match, in my opinion.

Taker-AJ match was like a movie. Not a proper match. I agree.

I personally didn't like it much.

 

[The_KING]

I think post WM 29, Taker fought Lesnar in a WM 30 rematch at SummerSlam which was excellent although Taker took some unnecessary bumps in it

The two matches with Lesnar in 2015 were really good. I also enjoyed the extremes rules 2019 tag team match with Roman. But I wouldn’t classify them as great matches.

But post 2013, Taker’s match quality significantly dipped. He wasn’t helped with some booking decisions as he was put in matches against fellow old men like Goldberg, Triple H, Shawn, Kane.

 

[The_KING]

Taker-AJ match was like a movie. Not a proper match. I agree.

I personally didn't like it much.

Given the state of Taker’s in ring ability at the time, the cinematic match was possibly the best ending to Taker’s career.

 

[The_KING]

Would've loved to see a Taker vs Jericho in Wrestlemania.

I don’t think Taker and Jericho had a proper rivalry. In late 2009, Jericho who was teaming with Big Show around that time faced Taker in a triple threat match for the world title. But I don’t remember them ever having a one on one match, which is a shame. I think between 2007-13, Taker and Jericho could have had an epic at wrestlemania.

 

[sweep_shot]

Given the state of Taker’s in ring ability at the time, the cinematic match was possibly the best ending to Taker’s career.

I feel like he should've retired earlier when he still had it in him. He hanged around for too long.

A legend like Undertaker should've had his last match against another veteran instead of AJ. Alternatively, he could've retired after that Brock Lesnar match where his streak was broken.

 

[The_KING]

I feel like he should've retired earlier when he still had it in him. He hanged around for too long.

A legend like Undertaker should've had his last match against another veteran instead of AJ. Alternatively, he could've retired after that Brock Lesnar match where his streak was broken.

He shouldn't have carried on wrestling after the streak was over, and ending the streak was a horrible decision.

From 2011 onwards, Taker only really wrestled during the wrestlemania season to defend the streak. During the last 5-6 years of the streak, Undertaker's wrestlemania matches weren't only the best in terms of quality, but also in terms of importance. They were bigger than world title matches. But once the streak died, Undertaker's career should have also died.

Sadly, Taker suffered a concussion early on in his wrestlemania 30 match against Lesnar, and so didn't remember anything about the match. He didn't want that to be his final match, and I don't blame him.

In hindsight, the end of the era match with Triple H at Wrestlemania 28 should have been his final match. The two legends of the attitude era going out with a bang. That would have been a perfect end to both Undertaker and Triple H's career.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Keeping it real, outside the main event, I think that I wont ever get back those 2-2.5 hours of my life back. It’s not something you should have to watch live, maybe am getting old but the PPV was average.

WWE is still predictable under Hunter, at least Vince made the big shows fun overall.

that's why i only watched the men's rumble. and it was. atleast the right guy won. Unless they pull something, Cody is winning the titles at mania.

 

[sweep_shot]

In hindsight, the end of the era match with Triple H at Wrestlemania 28 should have been his final match. The two legends of the attitude era going out with a bang. That would have been a perfect end to both Undertaker and Triple H's career.

I would've loved that ending too. That could've been a more fitting end to Undertaker's career.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

His ring work was a lot more psychological towards the end, he used his ring IQ a lot more, it comes down to preference but I really felt that Eddie was one hell of an all round performer towards the end of his career, I don’t know if how he worked in the early part of his career would be suited to the main event and RA’s emphasis on narrative based wrestling. However, Eddie was his own worst enemy, he put WAY too much pressure on himself as champion, I think that given the standards he expected of himself it somewhat impacted his matches but I still thoroughly enjoyed his work, for example I loved the WM21 opener with Rey but Eddie despised it, substance abuse, addiction to pain killers and unnecessary pressure put him a bad way but even in his worst, very few can wish to work even 50% of what he could produce, technically and aesthetically just on another level man, we would have got HBK v Eddie at WM 22 and that in my view would have been match of the century.

Cena doesn’t get enough credit, his work ethic, reliability and ability to soak up the pressure, remain disciplined and that guy for them will never be matched and as a talent he improved vastly and belongs there with the greats

I think as a complete package, the Eddie of the 2000s was an incredible performer. His character-work in particular during that 2000s phase was excellent. But you could see that everything he had been through in the last 5 years had taken a toll on him. For one thing, he was huge and clearly abusing steroids. He adapted well to the main-event style because his work was always on-point from a psychology stand-point. But I gotta disagree because the Eddie of 1997-99 was simply an unreal wrestler. And had he not been in that unfortunate car crash in '99 that spiraled him into addiction, not only would he probably still be alive, but he would be in the conversation with guys like Michaels and Bret as the ATG in-ring talents. Because then we wouldn't just have gotten the unreal in-ring talent he was becoming towards the end of '99 but we would have also gotten the fully developed persona that we got in the 2000s.

Because he was in WCW during that late 90s period, where he was almost always booked like s**t because he was a cruiserweight, its hard to point towards a particular feud or series of matches. I know I saw more than a few when I was bingeing Nitro and WCW a couple of years ago. But man if there is one match that you can point towards that shows you just how good Eddie was during this time-period, its Eddie vs. Rey in a Title vs. Mask match at Halloween Havoc 1997.

I'm not sure if you've seen this or not. I know I have sung the praises of this match numerous times because it is one of my all-time favorite wrestling matches. At any rate, its on YouTube so I can just share it here again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRYKCH8dUc

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You're either Trips disguised as a PPer or you know the product too well. (if it's the latter, it can hit the enjoyment factor a bit)

You were 100% correct.

This is mostly what happened and most likely direction. What I wanted was wishful, Cody’s triumph was anti-climatic but the saving grace is that the main event angle was outstanding.

Haha, I know I predicted most of it, but that doesn't mean this isn't what should have happened. Yeah, Sami vs. Roman at WrestleMania would have been incredible. But if you think about this storyline and the way it has been building, this was a logical direction for it to go in. Cody's win feels anti-climatic (I know). But let's not pretend like this is not what we all wanted ever since he returned to WWE 9 months ago.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Keeping it real, outside the main event, I think that I wont ever get back those 2-2.5 hours of my life back. It’s not something you should have to watch live, maybe am getting old but the PPV was average.

WWE is still predictable under Hunter, at least Vince made the big shows fun overall.

I dunno if one show is enough to make me forget about all the indiscretions Vince has been responsible for. For one thing, if Vince was still here I highly doubt that this Bloodline storyline would have even reached this point because as Sami mentioned in his interview with Ariel Helwani, he hadn't even interacted with Roman on-screen until Vince was there. We probably wouldn't be getting this Gunther push or Bray Wyatt in WWE at all either.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This year's Rumble was fairly disappointing. Outside the main-event + angle, this was a largely forgettable show.

The Men's Rumble match was fine. The right guy won and it was fantastic to see Gunther be this year's iron man. But other than that there was too much of little consequence here. No legend cameos to speak of besides Booker T. Not alot of story or interplay between wrestlers. Alot of big names (Lashley, Brock, Edge) got dumped fairly quickly which I thought was stupid and devalued the quality of the match.

As Bunny noted, it definitely was not a trainwreck like last year but for the last three years I have noticed that far too many guys come into this match and do nothing. And I think that may have alot to do with the Pat Patterson not being with us anymore. What do you think [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]? I don't think its any coincidence that the last great Rumble was the 2020 Royal Rumble, which was also Pat's last.


The shameless product placement match was just weird. I didn't quite hate it as much as everyone else, but this stuff right here is why Bray Wyatt has so many detractors. I'm glad Bray saw the new Predator movie and got that cool and face paint, but seriously what the hell was this? For one thing, you have to be absolutely morally bankrupt to put a gimmick match on the card just because a sponsor wanted it. But that wasn't even the worst thing about this thing. It was mainly just how stupid it looked and came off. From the stupid rave lighting to the ridiculous visual of LA Knight hitting Bray with a kendo stick that looked like a freakin' light saber to Uncle Howdy jumping onto a crash pad and missing LA Knight completely. Not to mention, LA Knight being buried 6 feet beneath the ground after this match. Both literally and figuratively. Which just reinforces the notion that you can't come out of a feud with Bray without being buried completely.

I'm a big fan of Bray but ever since he has come back he has been speaking in riddles that go nowhere. 3 months we have waited for him to wrestle and when he finally does, this is the garbage we get. This Bray stuff needs to go somewhere quick because I am really starting to lose my patience.

Did not watch the women's match, which unsurprisingly had more spooky Uncle Howdy s**t and fast-forwarded past the Women's Rumble. Because there's no f*****g way I'm watching two of these matches at once. But it was good to see Rhea Ripley. Especially because she was my pick to win this match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

And then ofcourse we had the main-event and even more importantly, the main-event angle. The main-event was a solid Roman Reigns main-event match. It felt like alot of other Roman Reigns main-event matches that start off slow, have bursts of big move sequences throughout, a bit of gaga in-between. But what made this special was the storyline and the angle that followed after.

I'm not gonna bother recounting the events because I know you guys saw it. I'm just gonna talk about the story and what I loved most about this.

First off, how about that pop? One thing we hear wrestlers talk about oftentimes is how you don't hear the crowd's true reaction at a stadium show because the voice doesn't echo the same way in a stadium the way it does in an arena. Well I tell you what, the pop that I heard here may have been one of the loudest I have heard while watching any wrestling show. So my only conclusion is that the entire stadium lost their s**t.

Second off, what a freakin' pay-off. It's so rare to see a storyline that makes you understand both sides so well.

On one hand, you have Sami, who wanted nothing more than to be a part of the Bloodline for the past year. He went from being a joke they didn't take seriously to a side-kick to an Honorary Uce. And last night, the moment was there for him to finally become a full-blown Uce. But to do it, to clear the final test he had to take out his childhood friend...the guy he has years and years of history with. The guy he has wrestled from bingo halls to sold out stadiums and he couldn't do it. And it's not because he didn't want to be part of the Bloodline. Its because Roman finally pushed him too far. Sami was happy letting Roman beat KO but he didn't want the Bloodline to beat the absolute stuffing out of him and leave him for dead. Which is why when Roman gave him the chair, he had no choice but to do one thing.


But at the same time, I don't think you can just look past Roman. What makes a great villain, great is that there is always a level of truth to what they say. And while you may not agree with their methods, you can see their side of the story and why they are the way they are. If you look at things from Roman's POV, you need to understand that this is a guy that is very apprehensive of the guys he aligns with. There is a reason why he aligns with guys who are quite literally his family, because the last time he aligned with a couple of guys he thought were his family, he was stabbed in the back for his troubles. It is nothing short of poetic that the same thing happened to him last night. I almost a picture perfect recreation of Rollins' chair-shot to him 9 years ago. Yet again, he trusted someone he thought was his family only for them to stab him in the back.

And again, you gotta see things for his POV here. For him, his family and the Undisputed title is everything. If anything, the two things go had in hand. It is through his family (the Usos and Solo) that he protects the belt and keeps it in his grasp. And by being champ he not only gets to make more money but elevate his family (Usos/Solo) him and put food on the table for his wife and kids.

So for him, KO was a threat to all these things. Which is why, like any great mob boss he had to take care of the situation in a definitive manner.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Now let's talk about where this storyline is going. I thought it was a great touch to see Jey's reaction in all this. It felt so...real. Of all the people, he is the one who went through the greatest level of character development. Which is why he was so speechless in this whole ordeal. You could tell that he really started to love Sami.

But that said, at the end of the day, his name is still Jey Uso.

Which is why I think that they will play off this whole deal for a little bit. They'll try to make us think that Jey is on the outs with Roman. That The Bloodline is imploding. But in Montreal when Sami will have Roman dead to rights with the Undisputed title within his grasp, Jey will show his true colors and screw Sami and prove his allegiance to the Tribal Chief. This will likely lead to an all-out post-match beatdown of Sami by The Bloodline. Until ofcourse, who comes out to make the save but Montreal's very own, Kevin Owens, who hasn't been seen since the epic beatdown he himself received at the Rumble.


Then you go to Zayn/Owens vs. the Usos, and Cody vs. Roman at Mania.

They could even draw some big ratings out of a couple of 6 man tags. Namely; Cody/KO/Sami vs. Roman/The Usos and Cody/KO/Sami vs. Solo/The Usos.


Atleast that's how I'd book it going forward.

 

[shaz619]

Haha, I know I predicted most of it, but that doesn't mean this isn't what should have happened. Yeah, Sami vs. Roman at WrestleMania would have been incredible. But if you think about this storyline and the way it has been building, this was a logical direction for it to go in. Cody's win feels anti-climatic (I know). But let's not pretend like this is not what we all wanted ever since he returned to WWE 9 months ago.

This direction was clearly the most obvious and done well, because there is so much heat in the angle they are able to avoid taking a punt on Sami in the main event of Wrestlemania, who knows what can happen between now and then, but it is most unlikely, however it’s a big missed opportunity to establish a new main eventer. 9 months is a long time in wrestling, but things change between what you wanted then and what should happen now, keeping plans so rigid have hurt the product in the past, he’s the right choice but timing is everything.

 

[shaz619]

I dunno if one show is enough to make me forget about all the indiscretions Vince has been responsible for. For one thing, if Vince was still here I highly doubt that this Bloodline storyline would have even reached this point because as Sami mentioned in his interview with Ariel Helwani, he hadn't even interacted with Roman on-screen until Vince was there. We probably wouldn't be getting this Gunther push or Bray Wyatt in WWE at all either.

For the many indiscretions, as many positives are notoriously overlooked. The Bloodline angle is one whole saga and Vince played a massive part of it and the rise of Reigns as a monster heel star, he has been more willing to delegate aspect of the creative to Heyman who am sure also plays a huge role in this as he has done with Lesnar stories over the years. Gunther push was solid but in this RR match, being an Iron-Man for the sake of that label was a little poor when I wanted him to be a wreaking ball destroying everyone in his path, the finishing stretch was good however. And with Bray, another thing we miss is his personal issues and mental health problems, when he was let go I they done him a favour after what happened with Brodie, but ignoring that, I heavily criticised the 50/50 booking under Vince, I always felt that just when he was on the brink, that big W always seem to elude him, but one thing which Vince ALWAYS got right was the character, whether it was the backwoods cult or The Fiend, Vince knew how to get that character over and his experience in shaping Taker and Kane helped massively. I really do hope there’s a strong pay off but right now, Hunter seems kinda clueless on how to handle Bray at the moment and this has led to widespread criticism which I’ve not seen on this level before, you now have rainbow twits like that Kenny Mcintoshbor whatever crying about him being hoky and what not when I bet he got the kleenex out when the New Day locked up in the Rumble

 

[shaz619]

This year's Rumble was fairly disappointing. Outside the main-event + angle, this was a largely forgettable show.

The Men's Rumble match was fine. The right guy won and it was fantastic to see Gunther be this year's iron man. But other than that there was too much of little consequence here. No legend cameos to speak of besides Booker T. Not alot of story or interplay between wrestlers. Alot of big names (Lashley, Brock, Edge) got dumped fairly quickly which I thought was stupid and devalued the quality of the match.

As Bunny noted, it definitely was not a trainwreck like last year but for the last three years I have noticed that far too many guys come into this match and do nothing. And I think that may have alot to do with the Pat Patterson not being with us anymore. What do you think [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]? I don't think its any coincidence that the last great Rumble was the 2020 Royal Rumble, which was also Pat's last.


The shameless product placement match was just weird. I didn't quite hate it as much as everyone else, but this stuff right here is why Bray Wyatt has so many detractors. I'm glad Bray saw the new Predator movie and got that cool and face paint, but seriously what the hell was this? For one thing, you have to be absolutely morally bankrupt to put a gimmick match on the card just because a sponsor wanted it. But that wasn't even the worst thing about this thing. It was mainly just how stupid it looked and came off. From the stupid rave lighting to the ridiculous visual of LA Knight hitting Bray with a kendo stick that looked like a freakin' light saber to Uncle Howdy jumping onto a crash pad and missing LA Knight completely. Not to mention, LA Knight being buried 6 feet beneath the ground after this match. Both literally and figuratively. Which just reinforces the notion that you can't come out of a feud with Bray without being buried completely.

I'm a big fan of Bray but ever since he has come back he has been speaking in riddles that go nowhere. 3 months we have waited for him to wrestle and when he finally does, this is the garbage we get. This Bray stuff needs to go somewhere quick because I am really starting to lose my patience.

Did not watch the women's match, which unsurprisingly had more spooky Uncle Howdy s**t and fast-forwarded past the Women's Rumble. Because there's no f*****g way I'm watching two of these matches at once. But it was good to see Rhea Ripley. Especially because she was my pick to win this match.

I agree on the Rumble, we’ve followed the black and gold era of NXT and Hunter’s handprints are all over this. Everything is solid and well executed but lacks the fun factor and his lack of big show experience hurts him, Pat being gone is a huge blow for sure and while I agree Vince’s stubborn booking decisions can be frustrating at times but with him not being there either, the event lacked heart much like clash of the castle. Totally agree on Wyatt and am a huge mark for him so its disappointing that I have to agree with that, I think Triple H is failing him massively and doesn’t know how to handle the character

 

[shaz619]

It’s also interesting how Cody’s return was widely promoted by the WWE, they didn’t want to get a few surprises in the match yeah whatever, but funny how they didn’t bother to hide this. Remember the Cena return at 2010, at the MSG? MSG of all places…

 

[shaz619]

I think as a complete package, the Eddie of the 2000s was an incredible performer. His character-work in particular during that 2000s phase was excellent. But you could see that everything he had been through in the last 5 years had taken a toll on him. For one thing, he was huge and clearly abusing steroids. He adapted well to the main-event style because his work was always on-point from a psychology stand-point. But I gotta disagree because the Eddie of 1997-99 was simply an unreal wrestler. And had he not been in that unfortunate car crash in '99 that spiraled him into addiction, not only would he probably still be alive, but he would be in the conversation with guys like Michaels and Bret as the ATG in-ring talents. Because then we wouldn't just have gotten the unreal in-ring talent he was becoming towards the end of '99 but we would have also gotten the fully developed persona that we got in the 2000s.

Because he was in WCW during that late 90s period, where he was almost always booked like s**t because he was a cruiserweight, its hard to point towards a particular feud or series of matches. I know I saw more than a few when I was bingeing Nitro and WCW a couple of years ago. But man if there is one match that you can point towards that shows you just how good Eddie was during this time-period, its Eddie vs. Rey in a Title vs. Mask match at Halloween Havoc 1997.

I'm not sure if you've seen this or not. I know I have sung the praises of this match numerous times because it is one of my all-time favorite wrestling matches. At any rate, its on YouTube so I can just share it here again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRYKCH8dUc

I still regard him as an ATG and especially because he passes the eye test. That match with Rey is one of the greatest of all time and one of my favourites, he was a terrific worker back then but having watched him in that period and in the 2000’s I personally still prefer his more psychological work and with his character work complimenting it whether he was heel or baby he really was in prime form in my opinion. As great as he was I agree with you that he could have been better and had not reached his ceiling due to his issues but I just recall having so much fun watching him

 

[The_KING]

It’s also interesting how Cody’s return was widely promoted by the WWE, they didn’t want to get a few surprises in the match yeah whatever, but funny how they didn’t bother to hide this. Remember the Cena return at 2010, at the MSG? MSG of all places…

That was 2008, but yeah, it was a great moment and I don’t even stan Cena.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] so guys I am back.

Might stay off the cricket forum cause Pak Cricket is probably going to get quite depressing now. But will be here on wrestling forum.

I don't know I am getting the feel Trips might just do the old Trips thing at Mania and screw over Cody for the title.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] so guys I am back.

Might stay off the cricket forum cause Pak Cricket is probably going to get quite depressing now. But will be here on wrestling forum.

I don't know I am getting the feel Trips might just do the old Trips thing at Mania and screw over Cody for the title.

There could be more heat in a Cody title triumph in the future, so him not going over wouldn’t be the worst thing providing he has a good outing and there are major plans for him narratively to go on to reclaim the title that eluded him, there is a story to build around that. At the same time, first title wins are never perfect and it’s something to build on, it certainly wasn’t for Ric Flair but when he won his 2nd (officially recognised NWA world championship) in 1983 by beating Harley in a Cage about 2 years later, it was his crowning moment as a reputable champion.

Cody is a major star right now and it’s only a matter of time, however I feel with the momentum with Sami it’s a chance for them to establish him as a worthy main eventer. The best merch sellers in WWE right now are Reigns, Sami, Wyatt and Cody

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There could be more heat in a Cody title triumph in the future, so him not going over wouldn’t be the worst thing providing he has a good outing and there are major plans for him narratively to go on to reclaim the title that eluded him, there is a story to build around that. At the same time, first title wins are never perfect and it’s something to build on, it certainly wasn’t for Ric Flair but when he won his 2nd (officially recognised NWA world championship) in 1983 by beating Harley in a Cage about 2 years later, it was his crowning moment as a reputable champion.

Cody is a major star right now and it’s only a matter of time, however I feel with the momentum with Sami it’s a chance for them to establish him as a worthy main eventer. The best merch sellers in WWE right now are Reigns, Sami, Wyatt and Cody

Yes Cody's 3 month run post mania had him being presented as a mega star, the last good thing Vince did IMO. Trips doesn't have to do the work like transition him from indie and AEW and mark fanbase to becoming mainstream guy now. That has been done already. The audience already sees him as unshakeable. And I would love to see him dethrone Roman.

Yes the momentum with Sami is huge right now. Even if not Sami, Jey can realistically be the guy to beat Roman as he's been the focal point of the whole storyline from time to time.
But there's a few problems with them presenting Sami as the top guy (not that I agree on them)

1. He's not seen as a main event guy but the people in charge. (Unless someone pushes him behind the scenes like Bryan did for Kofi or on the smaller scale Jericho pushing for Sammy Guevara)
2. He's a Muslim who looks like an Arab(which he is). I would really hate for this thing to be brought up, but it's a well established fact that racism still exists in a lot of households not just in USA but the whole world.
There is some inherent stereotypes when someone sees an Arab abroad. Sami could have gotten away with it if he were different looking. Arabs, South Asians and to an extent Chinese are least likely to resonate with the mainstream audience regardless of how well they "fit in."
It's really sad that I have to bring this up Arabs have been portrayed as antagonistic and villains in pop culture and media. It's hard to see them holding the top title for a good while. Never happening sadly.

The best they will do is to Sami help Cody dethrone Roman and get his "revenge"

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There could be more heat in a Cody title triumph in the future, so him not going over wouldn’t be the worst thing providing he has a good outing and there are major plans for him narratively to go on to reclaim the title that eluded him, there is a story to build around that. At the same time, first title wins are never perfect and it’s something to build on, it certainly wasn’t for Ric Flair but when he won his 2nd (officially recognised NWA world championship) in 1983 by beating Harley in a Cage about 2 years later, it was his crowning moment as a reputable champion.

Cody is a major star right now and it’s only a matter of time, however I feel with the momentum with Sami it’s a chance for them to establish him as a worthy main eventer. The best merch sellers in WWE right now are Reigns, Sami, Wyatt and Cody

Reigns, Cena, Randy, Bray will continue to sell tons of merch regardless of their position in the company or heel/face alignment. They're just that sort of names. Jeff Hardy was another merch selling giant. Cody will become a staple in there with time as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what's your view of Bruce Prichard? Is he really another one of Vince's stooges or a good creative mind? I have heard a lot of awful things about him on social media but from what I have observed, the guy is adaptable to the environment he is in, and actually has been pretty smooth as backstage force and has a solid resume with decades of experience in the business.

And have you guys seen the recent episode of Young Rock with Chad Frost? Dwayne basically changed HBK to a guy called Chad Frost who went to Vince to convince him that The Rock isn't the guy. Dwayne still keeps his grudges even though his daughter is working under Shawn atm.

 

[shaz619]

Yes Cody's 3 month run post mania had him being presented as a mega star, the last good thing Vince did IMO. Trips doesn't have to do the work like transition him from indie and AEW and mark fanbase to becoming mainstream guy now. That has been done already. The audience already sees him as unshakeable. And I would love to see him dethrone Roman.

Yes the momentum with Sami is huge right now. Even if not Sami, Jey can realistically be the guy to beat Roman as he's been the focal point of the whole storyline from time to time.
But there's a few problems with them presenting Sami as the top guy (not that I agree on them)

1. He's not seen as a main event guy but the people in charge. (Unless someone pushes him behind the scenes like Bryan did for Kofi or on the smaller scale Jericho pushing for Sammy Guevara)
2. He's a Muslim who looks like an Arab(which he is). I would really hate for this thing to be brought up, but it's a well established fact that racism still exists in a lot of households not just in USA but the whole world.
There is some inherent stereotypes when someone sees an Arab abroad. Sami could have gotten away with it if he were different looking. Arabs, South Asians and to an extent Chinese are least likely to resonate with the mainstream audience regardless of how well they "fit in."
It's really sad that I have to bring this up Arabs have been portrayed as antagonistic and villains in pop culture and media. It's hard to see them holding the top title for a good while. Never happening sadly.

The best they will do is to Sami help Cody dethrone Roman and get his "revenge"

Trips has very little to do with the major successes in the main event picture, we’ve seen enough of his booking style to realise this. He’s also a guy who would never have turned Sami heel, he transitioned into the Bloodline in that role. Unfortunately, much like in his prime, he is riding on the coattails of others who in this scenario are more equipped members of creative / senior vets who have more high level experience and proven success.

One thing I have to disagree with you on is Sami’s identity, if there’s anyone who held themselves back because of if, is Sami himself. He was afraid of how he would be perceived by the audience because how he looked or what he represented so wore a mask and worked like a luchadore, Jim Cornette saw early star potential and tried his best to get him to remove the mask. The guy is so over right now, the results speak for themselves, he is red hot and the audience are fully behind him, I don’t think this is an issue, it would be more related to booking ineptness if he doesn’t come out of this an established main eventer. Speaking of Jey, I wouldn’t mind him at that level either, he has proven he has the tools to succeed. Unless there is some major drama at EC, I can’t see Sami or Jey in the title picture, it wouldn’t surprise me if we Jey and Sami face Jimmy and Solo for the tag titles going by the storyline narrative but it could be a bluff for Jey helping Roman beat Sami, leading to a post match attack and KO coming out to set up thr Canadians vs The USOS for the belts, narratively its fine but you just feel they are onto something here and it will be a missed chance if they fail to capitalise on it

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what's your view of Bruce Prichard? Is he really another one of Vince's stooges or a good creative mind? I have heard a lot of awful things about him on social media but from what I have observed, the guy is adaptable to the environment he is in, and actually has been pretty smooth as backstage force and has a solid resume with decades of experience in the business.

And have you guys seen the recent episode of Young Rock with Chad Frost? Dwayne basically changed HBK to a guy called Chad Frost who went to Vince to convince him that The Rock isn't the guy. Dwayne still keeps his grudges even though his daughter is working under Shawn atm.

He’s a solid hand that’s for sure and he has great experience, but he’s not someone who has influenced the industry like a Heyman or Cornette, although he wasn’t as nuts as someone like Russo. He can adapt for sure but was too much of a Vince stooge for me, but someone like him is neccesary for a global brand but in more of a consultant position opposed to being the head of creative.

Not seen it but not surprising, I guess to be fair to The Rock he is simply covering that aspect of his career because it did happen and am a big Shawn mark. He hasn’t attacked Shawn over it in the years that have gone by and I thought they made up in 2008 at HOF

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He’s a solid hand that’s for sure and he has great experience, but he’s not someone who has influenced the industry like a Heyman or Cornette, although he wasn’t as nuts as someone like Russo. He can adapt for sure but was too much of a Vince stooge for me, but someone like him is neccesary for a global brand but in more of a consultant position opposed to being the head of creative.

Not seen it but not surprising, I guess to be fair to The Rock he is simply covering that aspect of his career because it did happen and am a big Shawn mark. He hasn’t attacked Shawn over it in the years that have gone by and I thought they made up in 2008 at HOF

I do agree Prichard is needed in WWE. I think he gets a lot of flak without being that bad.

If you can, do watch that episode, actually the reveal is pretty funny and a wink wink for fans who know about the history. The guy is actually dressed in the same denim outfit that HBK wore a few times around that time.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Trips has very little to do with the major successes in the main event picture, we’ve seen enough of his booking style to realise this. He’s also a guy who would never have turned Sami heel, he transitioned into the Bloodline in that role. Unfortunately, much like in his prime, he is riding on the coattails of others who in this scenario are more equipped members of creative / senior vets who have more high level experience and proven success.

One thing I have to disagree with you on is Sami’s identity, if there’s anyone who held themselves back because of if, is Sami himself. He was afraid of how he would be perceived by the audience because how he looked or what he represented so wore a mask and worked like a luchadore, Jim Cornette saw early star potential and tried his best to get him to remove the mask. The guy is so over right now, the results speak for themselves, he is red hot and the audience are fully behind him, I don’t think this is an issue, it would be more related to booking ineptness if he doesn’t come out of this an established main eventer. Speaking of Jey, I wouldn’t mind him at that level either, he has proven he has the tools to succeed. Unless there is some major drama at EC, I can’t see Sami or Jey in the title picture, it wouldn’t surprise me if we Jey and Sami face Jimmy and Solo for the tag titles going by the storyline narrative but it could be a bluff for Jey helping Roman beat Sami, leading to a post match attack and KO coming out to set up thr Canadians vs The USOS for the belts, narratively its fine but you just feel they are onto something here and it will be a missed chance if they fail to capitalise on it

I won't blame Sami really by going into indies like that. A lot of Indie shows are usually very cheap and the audience isn't that aware or educated enough. He would have been called a lot of stuff by such weird people and marks are some of the most awful people.

I do agree that he is super over now. But Trips does like him I believe otherwise he wouldn't have been put in that storyline.

The great wrestling storylines have this thing about it that there could be a lot of possibilities that could realistically happen and would make sense and that keeps the audience guessing. Attitude era had this thing and it paid of extremely well. (WCW did it in the worst possible way). Some times "the story writes itself" is good but for me the great storylines are the ones that would keep me guessing till the end. Although there may be some it was me austin stuff once in a while but pro wrestling does need these kind of storylines. And there should be more than one storyline at the time period because you have to tell stories about other titles, teams, factions etc as well. I do hope WWE moves in that direction.

The last time it felt like that was when Fiend was inserted in the Randy-Drew feud back in thunderdome era. I was so pumped up for possible Drew-Fiend interactions there but Vince really killed it and seperated it in 2 weeks by having Drew winning his title back and just move on from Randy. The same thing could have been done with Randy-Edge-Fiend feud but again it never happened and Edge and Drew are two great characters who could have meshed in extremely well in there.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what's your view of Bruce Prichard? Is he really another one of Vince's stooges or a good creative mind? I have heard a lot of awful things about him on social media but from what I have observed, the guy is adaptable to the environment he is in, and actually has been pretty smooth as backstage force and has a solid resume with decades of experience in the business.

And have you guys seen the recent episode of Young Rock with Chad Frost? Dwayne basically changed HBK to a guy called Chad Frost who went to Vince to convince him that The Rock isn't the guy. Dwayne still keeps his grudges even though his daughter is working under Shawn atm.

I'm sure he has had a hand in some major storylines and angles over the years. Just because of his involvement in WWE for such a long period of time. But honestly, he's too much of a Vince stooge to be taken seriously. His vision of wrestling has tended to be whatever Vince likes. Which probably explains how he has been involved in the WWE since 1988 all the way up till today. There was only a brief period during the 2010s and a year or two ago more recently when he wasn't there.

And all you have to do is listen to his podcast to reaffirm this fact. He is the ultimate Vince spin-doctor. Never willing to admit Vince did anything wrong creatively.

I don't know if that's a grudge as much as its, common knowledge at this point. He called him Chad Frost probably for legal reasons. At the end of the day, its a show about his life. So I'm sure he's going to want to mention something like that, that impacted him in a big way.

I don't watch the show though. Not a fan of it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Trips has very little to do with the major successes in the main event picture, we’ve seen enough of his booking style to realise this. He’s also a guy who would never have turned Sami heel, he transitioned into the Bloodline in that role. Unfortunately, much like in his prime, he is riding on the coattails of others who in this scenario are more equipped members of creative / senior vets who have more high level experience and proven success.

One thing I have to disagree with you on is Sami’s identity, if there’s anyone who held themselves back because of if, is Sami himself. He was afraid of how he would be perceived by the audience because how he looked or what he represented so wore a mask and worked like a luchadore, Jim Cornette saw early star potential and tried his best to get him to remove the mask. The guy is so over right now, the results speak for themselves, he is red hot and the audience are fully behind him, I don’t think this is an issue, it would be more related to booking ineptness if he doesn’t come out of this an established main eventer. Speaking of Jey, I wouldn’t mind him at that level either, he has proven he has the tools to succeed. Unless there is some major drama at EC, I can’t see Sami or Jey in the title picture, it wouldn’t surprise me if we Jey and Sami face Jimmy and Solo for the tag titles going by the storyline narrative but it could be a bluff for Jey helping Roman beat Sami, leading to a post match attack and KO coming out to set up thr Canadians vs The USOS for the belts, narratively its fine but you just feel they are onto something here and it will be a missed chance if they fail to capitalise on it

I dunno if its that cut and dry. While I agree that taking off the mask was ultimately the best thing for his career. The mask and the El Generico gimmick did make him stand-out in ROH where there were a plethora of guys that looked like him physically. The gimmick in particular was something tailor-made for smart fans, and helped him get over in a big way in ROH and the indies. So I don't think we can look past that aspect of his career. Because it played a part in getting him to where he is today. Even when he came to NXT, people were chanting "Ole Ole Ole".

At the end of the day, I think that a guy like Sami Zayn would have found a way to get over anywhere because that's just how talented he is, and always has been.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

For the many indiscretions, as many positives are notoriously overlooked. The Bloodline angle is one whole saga and Vince played a massive part of it and the rise of Reigns as a monster heel star, he has been more willing to delegate aspect of the creative to Heyman who am sure also plays a huge role in this as he has done with Lesnar stories over the years. Gunther push was solid but in this RR match, being an Iron-Man for the sake of that label was a little poor when I wanted him to be a wreaking ball destroying everyone in his path, the finishing stretch was good however. And with Bray, another thing we miss is his personal issues and mental health problems, when he was let go I they done him a favour after what happened with Brodie, but ignoring that, I heavily criticised the 50/50 booking under Vince, I always felt that just when he was on the brink, that big W always seem to elude him, but one thing which Vince ALWAYS got right was the character, whether it was the backwoods cult or The Fiend, Vince knew how to get that character over and his experience in shaping Taker and Kane helped massively. I really do hope there’s a strong pay off but right now, Hunter seems kinda clueless on how to handle Bray at the moment and this has led to widespread criticism which I’ve not seen on this level before, you now have rainbow twits like that Kenny Mcintoshbor whatever crying about him being hoky and what not when I bet he got the kleenex out when the New Day locked up in the Rumble

I dunno if I would give Vince as much credit as you would. Let's not forget that he ran Roman into the ground as a character before he even got a chance to become a character. And honestly, his booking of Roman from 2015-19 was one of the worst examples of booking a main-event level guy that I have ever seen. Roman going heel was more of a case of Roman finally having enough pull in the company to influence his creative direction. All Vince really did was agree to it. And that too because he didn't have a choice. If it was up to him we would still be getting sufferin' suckatash.

With The Fiend as well I don't think any one person has a bigger hand in destroying it than Vince. From the atrocity that was The Fiend vs Seth Rollins at Hell in A Cell to booking Oldberg to squash him in Saudi to the Randy Orton-Fiend storyline. If there's anyone I give credit to for The Fiend and the backwoods Bray Wyatt character, its Bray himself, who came up with these ideas and fleshed them out with certain writers who may or may not be there anymore.

Vince is the greatest promoter in the history of the business. But he is not exactly someone who has ever been the strongest mind creatively. His biggest strength has usually been listening to the people and giving them what they want. And he has been lucky enough to have people around him that were very talented and whom he used to listen to. Beyond that, as far as his own vision of wrestling is concerned ("sell the sizzle, not the steak") I can't say that it is something that I or most hardcore wrestling fans ascribe to. And if you start going through some of the ideas that he actually came up with himself, you will likely see that most of them were either really stupid, really juvenile or both.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This direction was clearly the most obvious and done well, because there is so much heat in the angle they are able to avoid taking a punt on Sami in the main event of Wrestlemania, who knows what can happen between now and then, but it is most unlikely, however it’s a big missed opportunity to establish a new main eventer. 9 months is a long time in wrestling, but things change between what you wanted then and what should happen now, keeping plans so rigid have hurt the product in the past, he’s the right choice but timing is everything.

I completely agree with you. But that's WWE for you. Even with as much as wrestling has changed in the last two decades its sad to see that a guy like Sami Zayn can still not become 'the guy' in a company like WWE. Eventhough he has every tool that is needed to become one. With Vince we already knew this. But its funny to see that Triple H thinks the same way too, if Meltzer is to be believed. I just hope that the smart fans can stop putting him on a pedestal now. Because while he has made alot of positive changes since coming on, at the end of the day, he is not someone who is a status-quo shaker like people have been making him out to be for years. Also, its not like RAW or SmackDown are somehow significantly better shows since he came on. All that's really changed is that there are more NXT guys on RAW and SD now.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I dunno if I would give Vince as much credit as you would. Let's not forget that he ran Roman into the ground as a character before he even got a chance to become a character. And honestly, his booking of Roman from 2015-19 was one of the worst examples of booking a main-event level guy that I have ever seen. Roman going heel was more of a case of Roman finally having enough pull in the company to influence his creative direction. All Vince really did was agree to it. And that too because he didn't have a choice. If it was up to him we would still be getting sufferin' suckatash.

With The Fiend as well I don't think any one person has a bigger hand in destroying it than Vince. From the atrocity that was The Fiend vs Seth Rollins at Hell in A Cell to booking Oldberg to squash him in Saudi to the Randy Orton-Fiend storyline. If there's anyone I give credit to for The Fiend and the backwoods Bray Wyatt character, its Bray himself, who came up with these ideas and fleshed them out with certain writers who may or may not be there anymore.

Vince is the greatest promoter in the history of the business. But he is not exactly someone who has ever been the strongest mind creatively. His biggest strength has usually been listening to the people and giving them what they want. And he has been lucky enough to have people around him that were very talented and whom he used to listen to. Beyond that, as far as his own vision of wrestling is concerned ("sell the sizzle, not the steak") I can't say that it is something that I or most hardcore wrestling fans ascribe to. And if you start going through some of the ideas that he actually came up with himself, you will likely see that most of them were either really stupid, really juvenile or both.

According to Y2J, some of Vince's best attributes were to add a little twist to some ideas. Like he said he asked Vince to put on a clock for his debut and have that clock run out at the start of the Raw where he would debut but Vince said why don't we have the clock run out in the middle of Dwayne's promo. And he said it worked and it did for the majority of Vince's prime.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I completely agree with you. But that's WWE for you. Even with as much as wrestling has changed in the last two decades its sad to see that a guy like Sami Zayn can still not become 'the guy' in a company like WWE. Eventhough he has every tool that is needed to become one. With Vince we already knew this. But its funny to see that Triple H thinks the same way too, if Meltzer is to be believed. I just hope that the smart fans can stop putting him on a pedestal now. Because while he has made alot of positive changes since coming on, at the end of the day, he is not someone who is a status-quo shaker like people have been making him out to be for years. Also, its not like RAW or SmackDown are somehow significantly better shows since he came on. All that's really changed is that there are more NXT guys on RAW and SD now.

The pop that Sami got on SD was so brilliant. I would have just liked to have 2 champions so the Rumble winner could face someone else and Sami would get to face and beat Roman at Mania. Unifying the titles was stupid especially considering it happened around the time Roman went part time.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I'm sure he has had a hand in some major storylines and angles over the years. Just because of his involvement in WWE for such a long period of time. But honestly, he's too much of a Vince stooge to be taken seriously. His vision of wrestling has tended to be whatever Vince likes. Which probably explains how he has been involved in the WWE since 1988 all the way up till today. There was only a brief period during the 2010s and a year or two ago more recently when he wasn't there.

And all you have to do is listen to his podcast to reaffirm this fact. He is the ultimate Vince spin-doctor. Never willing to admit Vince did anything wrong creatively.

I don't know if that's a grudge as much as its, common knowledge at this point. He called him Chad Frost probably for legal reasons. At the end of the day, its a show about his life. So I'm sure he's going to want to mention something like that, that impacted him in a big way.

I don't watch the show though. Not a fan of it.

Haven't ever listened to any wrestling podcast so I don't really know about that. But I think we can sort of say that Prichard is a great hand to have as the second or third guy but he just isn't someone who could be the main guy or the runner of a promotion.

I watch that show. It produces one or two good episodes per season especially the ones that are set in his adult life in and around WWE. It's 20 min per episode so it passes by quickly.

 

[shaz619]

I dunno if I would give Vince as much credit as you would. Let's not forget that he ran Roman into the ground as a character before he even got a chance to become a character. And honestly, his booking of Roman from 2015-19 was one of the worst examples of booking a main-event level guy that I have ever seen. Roman going heel was more of a case of Roman finally having enough pull in the company to influence his creative direction. All Vince really did was agree to it. And that too because he didn't have a choice. If it was up to him we would still be getting sufferin' suckatash.

With The Fiend as well I don't think any one person has a bigger hand in destroying it than Vince. From the atrocity that was The Fiend vs Seth Rollins at Hell in A Cell to booking Oldberg to squash him in Saudi to the Randy Orton-Fiend storyline. If there's anyone I give credit to for The Fiend and the backwoods Bray Wyatt character, its Bray himself, who came up with these ideas and fleshed them out with certain writers who may or may not be there anymore.

Vince is the greatest promoter in the history of the business. But he is not exactly someone who has ever been the strongest mind creatively. His biggest strength has usually been listening to the people and giving them what they want. And he has been lucky enough to have people around him that were very talented and whom he used to listen to. Beyond that, as far as his own vision of wrestling is concerned ("sell the sizzle, not the steak") I can't say that it is something that I or most hardcore wrestling fans ascribe to. And if you start going through some of the ideas that he actually came up with himself, you will likely see that most of them were either really stupid, really juvenile or both.

Vince is criminally under-appreciated, he’s the smarks favourite punching bag. He is rightly criticised for the rubbish but that will happen when he been in the game that long, I think creatively he is capable, however he is too stubborn at times. Reigns has no where near as much clout as the likes of Cena and Austin had, I think they’ve moved away from being entirely reliant on that one person, it was a situation where after several humiliating failures that he was forced to listen to the people around him which has always been his biggest strength, to lead; a concept lost on modern promoters. He doesn’t need to be a specialist in certain areas but to him, he had to be able to do a bit of everything to command the roster’s respect.

 

[shaz619]

I completely agree with you. But that's WWE for you. Even with as much as wrestling has changed in the last two decades its sad to see that a guy like Sami Zayn can still not become 'the guy' in a company like WWE. Eventhough he has every tool that is needed to become one. With Vince we already knew this. But its funny to see that Triple H thinks the same way too, if Meltzer is to be believed. I just hope that the smart fans can stop putting him on a pedestal now. Because while he has made alot of positive changes since coming on, at the end of the day, he is not someone who is a status-quo shaker like people have been making him out to be for years. Also, its not like RAW or SmackDown are somehow significantly better shows since he came on. All that's really changed is that there are more NXT guys on RAW and SD now.

I don’t know, maybe it’s a Triple H problem, Vince still promoted Bryan as the man. The other thing is you need to show you have some balls. Do you remember when Vince fired Bryan, Bryan said to him great! I will make even more money on the indies! Being THE guy takes a lot, but I can’t see why Sami can’t be established as a singles main eventer. You know with Vince around, the card was inconsistent but the main event picture had some meat there. I agree with you because I don’t know what has changed

 

[shaz619]

According to Y2J, some of Vince's best attributes were to add a little twist to some ideas. Like he said he asked Vince to put on a clock for his debut and have that clock run out at the start of the Raw where he would debut but Vince said why don't we have the clock run out in the middle of Dwayne's promo. And he said it worked and it did for the majority of Vince's prime.

That’s a good spot, I think he mentioned it on his podcast didn’t he. There’s probably tons of stuff which wont see the light of day, Vince also notoriously doesn’t like to get credit for stuff like that

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That’s a good spot, I think he mentioned it on his podcast didn’t he. There’s probably tons of stuff which wont see the light of day, Vince also notoriously doesn’t like to get credit for stuff like that

Nah it was that Austin interview where Jericho appeared even when he was signed to AEW. But I think that Broken Skull sessions stuff is good and Austin is pretty good at it. But that's really the only episode I watched of it. Otherwise I have only seen clips of it circulating on twitter etc. One was where Sasha was saying she should be at the top and stuff and sounded extremely arrogant.

Yes, atleast in front of the cameras, it does seem like Vince isn't someone who enjoys others praising him or giving him credit.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Vince is criminally under-appreciated, he’s the smarks favourite punching bag. He is rightly criticised for the rubbish but that will happen when he been in the game that long, I think creatively he is capable, however he is too stubborn at times. Reigns has no where near as much clout as the likes of Cena and Austin had, I think they’ve moved away from being entirely reliant on that one person, it was a situation where after several humiliating failures that he was forced to listen to the people around him which has always been his biggest strength, to lead; a concept lost on modern promoters. He doesn’t need to be a specialist in certain areas but to him, he had to be able to do a bit of everything to command the roster’s respect.

I know Vince has a lot of fallacies and is probably an AH in real life and whatnot. but there isn't a single person who has been as influential in pro wrestling as Vince. He ran the business for over 40 years and took it to the level where it is a global empire which will continue to churn out millions unless someone really messes it up.

The likes of Heyman, Bischoff, Jarrett etc all ended up hitting a wall after at best 10 years. Marks love TK but it's only been 3 years for him. Let's see where he is at pro wrestling biz wise in 10 years.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Vince is criminally under-appreciated, he’s the smarks favourite punching bag. He is rightly criticised for the rubbish but that will happen when he been in the game that long, I think creatively he is capable, however he is too stubborn at times. Reigns has no where near as much clout as the likes of Cena and Austin had, I think they’ve moved away from being entirely reliant on that one person, it was a situation where after several humiliating failures that he was forced to listen to the people around him which has always been his biggest strength, to lead; a concept lost on modern promoters. He doesn’t need to be a specialist in certain areas but to him, he had to be able to do a bit of everything to command the roster’s respect.

Yeah no doubt there. He was a great leader and without a doubt the greatest ever in the history of this business. Because no one even comes close. And like you said, he didn't need to be the strongest mind creatively because his ability to lead that company was far more important. Especially during the Monday Night Wars. In fact it was his ability to lead which made his company survive and thrive. While his competition went out of business precisely because it had that vacuum of leadership.

No one ever talks about this aspect because frankly there has never really been a great leader in this business besides Vince that has been able to take their promotion to these heights and be successful for such a long time. As good as they may have been creatively.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I know Vince has a lot of fallacies and is probably an AH in real life and whatnot. but there isn't a single person who has been as influential in pro wrestling as Vince. He ran the business for over 40 years and took it to the level where it is a global empire which will continue to churn out millions unless someone really messes it up.

The likes of Heyman, Bischoff, Jarrett etc all ended up hitting a wall after at best 10 years. Marks love TK but it's only been 3 years for him. Let's see where he is at pro wrestling biz wise in 10 years.

Bischoff is given way too much credit in my opinion. Ultimately for me, he was the biggest cause of WCW going out of business. Because it was his decisions that set the stage for their demise. He was also a terrible leader who was incapable of reigning in guys like Hogan and Nash.

Heyman, as good as he was creatively was a beyond terrible businessman. Probably one of the worst in history of the business. There are so many stories I have heard...alot from his friends...of him ripping people off or just not paying them the money they were owed, back when he was running ECW. The less said about Jarrett the better.

Even the old territory promoters. Most of them were dinosaurs that were unwilling to see the change that was sweeping the business. Which is why their businesses ceased to exist.

The business side of wrestling is not talked about enough because when you think about it there has only been one person that has really succeeded at it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don’t know, maybe it’s a Triple H problem, Vince still promoted Bryan as the man. The other thing is you need to show you have some balls. Do you remember when Vince fired Bryan, Bryan said to him great! I will make even more money on the indies! Being THE guy takes a lot, but I can’t see why Sami can’t be established as a singles main eventer. You know with Vince around, the card was inconsistent but the main event picture had some meat there. I agree with you because I don’t know what has changed

I personally see Bryan as kind of an exception to the rule. For one thing he was massively over and beloved in a way that no one wrestler has been in the current era of wrestling. Then he was/is a once-in-a-generation in-ring talent and an excellent promo. On top of that, Vince and Bryan managed to build an great relationship together during Bryan's second run and Bryan still credits Vince for having taught him alot about the business...also considers him to be something of a father figure.

Re: Sami, the funny thing is that he is actually pretty tall too. The guy has to be 6 ft. The only thing he does not have is a body-builder physique. And honestly he doesn't need one! HHH has blabbered incessantly in numerous interviews that the most important thing for him is a wrestler's ability to tell a story in the ring and illicit a reaction from the audience, not the moves that they can perform. Seems it was all lip-service. He was okay booking like that on NXT but WWE is not the same I guess.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I personally see Bryan as kind of an exception to the rule. For one thing he was massively over and beloved in a way that no one wrestler has been in the current era of wrestling. Then he was/is a once-in-a-generation in-ring talent and an excellent promo. On top of that, Vince and Bryan managed to build an great relationship together during Bryan's second run and Bryan still credits Vince for having taught him alot about the business...also considers him to be something of a father figure.

Re: Sami, the funny thing is that he is actually pretty tall too. The guy has to be 6 ft. The only thing he does not have is a body-builder physique. And honestly he doesn't need one! HHH has blabbered incessantly in numerous interviews that the most important thing for him is a wrestler's ability to tell a story in the ring and illicit a reaction from the audience, not the moves that they can perform. Seems it was all lip-service. He was okay booking like that on NXT but WWE is not the same I guess.

Think the problem with Sami has been the way he has been diluted to the degree where the audience sees nothing more than a mid carder sadly. He's been on the main roster since 2015 and for 7 years he has never been given anything more than mid card push. On top of that he was given a pathetic character with awful storylines once he turned heel (Lashley's sisters, not taking a single bump or hitting the opponent during his IC title reign vs Strowman and Bryan in 2020). If a wrestler is kept so down for so long, it becomes extremely different to see him at the top. To Sami's credit, he never complained about it, managed to do the best he could with his character and got over with his annoying heel gimmick as well. But the damage he's been dealt with has been too much. But I do hope he gets the top run that he deserves. Bryan only had to fiddle in the mid card for 3-4 years compared to Sami's 7. Even then he was given the wwe title once or twice (even though they had him lose in that terrible fashion to Sheamus) but bryan didn't get that bad treatment that Sami has got. So for him to finally go to the top was relatively easier. But then again Bryan is no ordinary wrestler either like you said.

Drew is also an example, the way he was presented in 3MB, would he have been able to get over and be the force that he has been since his 2018 return? I don't think so. He was a comedy character then and was turned into a joke. Only once he had rebuilt himself on the indies and had totally changed his look, his wrestling style and on mic, was he finally dubbed as the prodigal son upon his return.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Bischoff is given way too much credit in my opinion. Ultimately for me, he was the biggest cause of WCW going out of business. Because it was his decisions that set the stage for their demise. He was also a terrible leader who was incapable of reigning in guys like Hogan and Nash.

Heyman, as good as he was creatively was a beyond terrible businessman. Probably one of the worst in history of the business. There are so many stories I have heard...alot from his friends...of him ripping people off or just not paying them the money they were owed, back when he was running ECW. The less said about Jarrett the better.

Even the old territory promoters. Most of them were dinosaurs that were unwilling to see the change that was sweeping the business. Which is why their businesses ceased to exist.

The business side of wrestling is not talked about enough because when you think about it there has only been one person that has really succeeded at it.

That's what shaz is saying IMO that Vince has been the only one to make it in prowrestling business. Everyone else drowned.