The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[shaz619]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] so guys nothing going on in pro wrestling these days? Uncharacteristic for the Mania season.

I think the Sami Zayn arc has sucked the life out of fans, I think WM as a card will have a solid build and deliver, but the magic is missing at the moment.

P.S Bryan vs MJF is a MOTY contender, special match

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think the Sami Zayn arc has sucked the life out of fans, I think WM as a card will have a solid build and deliver, but the magic is missing at the moment.

P.S Bryan vs MJF is a MOTY contender, special match

Haven't seen it. Really hate the Ironman stipulation.

They had Sami job out to Solo last week.

Cody Roman story is still going along the lines of Dusty. There's no real story there. Or even real thirst from Cody to win the title. Very much like Cena-JBL from 2006

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] bloodline segment and cena-theory segment. Brilliant tv.
The work these guys have put in for the whole Bloodline stuff is better than anything in prowrestling for last 5-6 years IMO. The character growth of Jimmy and Jey, the natural connection of Sami with the crowd. It's amazing.
Plus there's still seeds for Jey to break off and feud with Roman some where down the line, he's done exceptionally well character work.

 

[Markhor]

Watched Undertaker interviewed on Mike Tyson's YouTube channel.

Tyson's wrestling knowledge is extraordinary. Not only was he aware of the guys he worked with, he was listing names like Tony Garea and Jay Strongbow

Out of all the celebrities used in wresting, his appearance was the most impactful IMO. However I pray he's not going the way of Mohammad Ali because he sounded rough.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] bloodline segment and cena-theory segment. Brilliant tv.
The work these guys have put in for the whole Bloodline stuff is better than anything in prowrestling for last 5-6 years IMO. The character growth of Jimmy and Jey, the natural connection of Sami with the crowd. It's amazing.
Plus there's still seeds for Jey to break off and feud with Roman some where down the line, he's done exceptionally well character work.

I would agree with you, but it was predictable, we all knew Jey would turn on Sami. I have lost some interest in this angle, we either going to get KO/Sami vs The USOS or what seems to be likely, is that Sami will play a role in the main event involving Reigns/Cody, but not as a participant in the match itself.

The stuff between Cena and Theory was great, I am routing for Cena to go over, because he hasn’t won a match in years. Cena man sometimes he just literally rips you to shreds its hilarious

 

[shaz619]

Watched Undertaker interviewed on Mike Tyson's YouTube channel.

Tyson's wrestling knowledge is extraordinary. Not only was he aware of the guys he worked with, he was listing names like Tony Garea and Jay Strongbow

Out of all the celebrities used in wresting, his appearance was the most impactful IMO. However I pray he's not going the way of Mohammad Ali because he sounded rough.

He is actively stereotyped due to his reputation as a fighter, he is guilty of playing that up during his career despite the controversial nature of his conviction. However, even as fighter, his knowledge and respect for Boxing history is vast, he idolised the greats and really was a student of the game having been trained by Cus, it was a part of his training regime, the psychological advantage and channelling the spirit of those who came before him. Ali’s connection with pro-wrestling may have contributed to his interest, Ali literally stole Gorgeous George’s gimmick I am inclined to agree with you regarding Tyson’s impact, but surely WM 1 has to be up there? I saw a clip recently off Hogan and Mr.T making their entrance to eye of the tiger, and as they entered the ring Ali stood there in the classic ref attire, that’s what you call a genuine spectacle, I would say that apprarance by the legend was equally important for the WWF and especially; Wrestlemania brand.

P.S prior to that, didn’t Ali take a bump for Gorilla Monsoon?

With these two being fans of the product, it definitely played a massive role in getting them to really get involved in the theatrics.

Tyson and Austin! Tyson and Austin! goosebumps lol

Mike is in a much better place now, unfortunately he is a user, mainly cannabis and psychedelics I believe but he has been through a great deal, even this century there was a horrible accident where his young daughter passed away but he was able to handle that somehow despite his relationship with the dark side.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He is actively stereotyped due to his reputation as a fighter, he is guilty of playing that up during his career despite the controversial nature of his conviction. However, even as fighter, his knowledge and respect for Boxing history is vast, he idolised the greats and really was a student of the game having been trained by Cus, it was a part of his training regime, the psychological advantage and channelling the spirit of those who came before him. Ali’s connection with pro-wrestling may have contributed to his interest, Ali literally stole Gorgeous George’s gimmick I am inclined to agree with you regarding Tyson’s impact, but surely WM 1 has to be up there? I saw a clip recently off Hogan and Mr.T making their entrance to eye of the tiger, and as they entered the ring Ali stood there in the classic ref attire, that’s what you call a genuine spectacle, I would say that apprarance by the legend was equally important for the WWF and especially; Wrestlemania brand.

P.S prior to that, didn’t Ali take a bump for Gorilla Monsoon?

With these two being fans of the product, it definitely played a massive role in getting them to really get involved in the theatrics.

Tyson and Austin! Tyson and Austin! goosebumps lol

Mike is in a much better place now, unfortunately he is a user, mainly cannabis and psychedelics I believe but he has been through a great deal, even this century there was a horrible accident where his young daughter passed away but he was able to handle that somehow despite his relationship with the dark side.

Tyson has mental health issues as well which are more serious and unpredictable than depression. He also seems like a confused individual at times not knowing what he really wants. Seems to be lacking direction since the end of his boxing career.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I would agree with you, but it was predictable, we all knew Jey would turn on Sami. I have lost some interest in this angle, we either going to get KO/Sami vs The USOS or what seems to be likely, is that Sami will play a role in the main event involving Reigns/Cody, but not as a participant in the match itself.

The stuff between Cena and Theory was great, I am routing for Cena to go over, because he hasn’t won a match in years. Cena man sometimes he just literally rips you to shreds its hilarious

Yes, I really really want Cena to win a match. I feel like if Theory isn't able to make a good comeback through promos, his push might stall. I would have preferred an LA Knight-Cena feud. The promo battles would have been much more fun.

Usos vs KO/Sami seems like the option.

I don't know why but Cody-Roman feud doesn't feel like a Mania mainevent feud considering how it is being booked. There doesn't seem to be any bad blood that crowd can feed off, plus they're not even able to craft a proper storyline other than Cody won the Rumble. With Cody and Roman, the two need to get real personal, get the blood boiling to fire up the fans. They had the great story with Sami but they decided not to go with him. Atm it seems more like Roman retaining the title at Mania and holding it till Summerslam maybe.

Vince was great at booking Mania mainevents feuds.

 

[Markhor]

He is actively stereotyped due to his reputation as a fighter, he is guilty of playing that up during his career despite the controversial nature of his conviction. However, even as fighter, his knowledge and respect for Boxing history is vast, he idolised the greats and really was a student of the game having been trained by Cus, it was a part of his training regime, the psychological advantage and channelling the spirit of those who came before him. Ali’s connection with pro-wrestling may have contributed to his interest, Ali literally stole Gorgeous George’s gimmick I am inclined to agree with you regarding Tyson’s impact, but surely WM 1 has to be up there? I saw a clip recently off Hogan and Mr.T making their entrance to eye of the tiger, and as they entered the ring Ali stood there in the classic ref attire, that’s what you call a genuine spectacle, I would say that apprarance by the legend was equally important for the WWF and especially; Wrestlemania brand.

P.S prior to that, didn’t Ali take a bump for Gorilla Monsoon?

With these two being fans of the product, it definitely played a massive role in getting them to really get involved in the theatrics.

Tyson and Austin! Tyson and Austin! goosebumps lol

Mike is in a much better place now, unfortunately he is a user, mainly cannabis and psychedelics I believe but he has been through a great deal, even this century there was a horrible accident where his young daughter passed away but he was able to handle that somehow despite his relationship with the dark side.

Yep that's right.

Before that there was an infamous boxer vs wrestler match between Ali and Inoki in the late 70s which was horrible. I've seen a clip and it mainly consisted of Inoki on his back kicking.

 

[shaz619]

Yep that's right.

Before that there was an infamous boxer vs wrestler match between Ali and Inoki in the late 70s which was horrible. I've seen a clip and it mainly consisted of Inoki on his back kicking.

Yes, it was a farce. I read somewhere that his match with Inoki may have done more damage as far as exasperating Ali’s Parkinson’s disease was concerned compared to his fight career

 

[MenInG]

Yes, it was a farce. I read somewhere that his match with Inoki may have done more damage as far as exasperating Ali’s Parkinson’s disease was concerned compared to his fight career

Watched that live on TV in Pakistan.

In those days, Mohammad Ali was like royalty for Pakistanis and to see him being hit by Inoki was heartbreaking

 

[shaz619]

Watched that live on TV in Pakistan.

In those days, Mohammad Ali was like royalty for Pakistanis and to see him being hit by Inoki was heartbreaking

It should never have been sanctioned, I can partly get Inoki’s tactics because he was not able to engage with Ali, no tackling, chops or punching etc these were negotiated on the fight day itself. They could have gone with something along the lines of allowing chops, punching and fighting in the clinch, but they effectively handicapped Inoki completely and it wasn’t really much of a showcase of two distinct styles. The aftermath was disastrous, fans in Japan hold Inoki in the same regard as Ali all around the world and it’s no surprise they rioted, Ali on the other hand suffered blood cots to his leg and even amputation was discussed, the damage also explains how his lateral movement in the ring and mobility had completely deteriorated, but what made Ali special beyond his insane technical ability was his heart and determination, he effectively lost his legs and was experiencing the early stages of Parkinson’s towards the end of his career, but still became a 3 time lineal world heavyweight champion, a feat yet to be matched. With these issues in mind can’t overly criticise the loss to leon spinks which he’d avenge. Ideally he should have retired after Foreman, but Boxing corruption was rampant at its peak in those days and fighters didn’t get paid as well as those in the present today.

Some interesting trivia, Vince Snr got the rights to broadcast the telecast for this exhibition and sold like 30k tickets in a stadium which people attended to watch the battle live.

Ali’s was widely popular in Pakistan, it’s surreal to think he actually visited there, not once, but twice!

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] so guys nothing going on in pro wrestling these days? Uncharacteristic for the Mania season.

Was swamped at work so finally got a chance to catch up on wrestling this week.

Loving the Sami/Bloodline odyssey and the Cody-Roman feud, which is starting to build. Yeah, I booked this feud months in advance but I'm still enjoying it. Looking forward to Cody bringing KO and Zayn back together, and more interplay between Cody and Roman/Heyman.

RAW was fun with the Cena-Theory segment. It was fun watching Cena gut Theory like a fish on the mic. But honestly, the more I see of Theory the more I think, this guy isn't even in the same universe as MJF. Too much about Theory feels manufactured and fake and I just can't get comfortable with the idea of him as a main-eventer just yet. And while Cena was doing it in kayfabe, he probably hit too close to home. Very fun segment tho.

And then ofcourse there was MJF v Danielson. Every bit as incredible as I expected it would be, and more. A 60 Minute Ironman match that went into overtime and yet never got boring. Easily one of the greatest wrestling matches of the modern era. In the same category as FTR/Briscoes, Punk/MJF, Omega/Danielson, Omega/Okada. Might be the greatest match AEW has ever put on. And it was an awesome PPV too.

No matter how bad or good their TV can be from time to time AEW almost always delivers with their PPVs. And besides 3 matches, this PPV had some great matches.

Ofcourse nothing comes close to the main-event. But I greatly enjoyed Mox v Page because I enjoy these modern hardcore matches if they are done right. Starks v Jericho was really good and credit to Jericho, he didn't get his win back like everyone thought he would. Put Starks over twice, clean and in the middle of the ring. No B.S. He must be listening to the critics lol. Jungle Boy v Christian was probably the surprise of the night. A Buried Alive/Casket match that actually looked like a fight where both guys had animosity towards each other and wanted to beat the other one. Why Christian isn't the #2 heel in this company after MJF beggars belief imo. Such a professional this guy who is incredible at everything that he does. And even House of Black v The Elite, I enjoyed for what it was, which was basically a video-game match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I've also been catching up with ROH, which has finally started as an episodic show on the HonorClub streaming platform. It weirdly feels alot like NXT back when it was good. With the soundstage audience, high work-rate matches, professional commentary. And there were some pretty good matches on the first two shows as well. Claudio v AR Fox, Takeshita v Josh Woods, Wheeler Yuta v Timothy Thatcher!

My only problem with it is that its too long. Because its on their streaming platform, they don't put any ads which means that you get an uninterrupted 2 hour show. And honestly I could do without some of the no-name indie talent on this card. But it can be a pretty easy watch if you skip past some of the matches.

They also seem to be building towards Claudio v Eddie Kingston for the ROH World Title at their next PPV. And I am very interested in that. Because these two have real life heat going back to their indie days. And any time wrestling can turn a storyline out of real life s**t, I'm sitting down with a bag of popcorn in my hand

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think the Sami Zayn arc has sucked the life out of fans, I think WM as a card will have a solid build and deliver, but the magic is missing at the moment.

P.S Bryan vs MJF is a MOTY contender, special match

Bro I don't know if this term has any meaning anymore. Considering a match that Ospreay and Okada had that no one saw won it over FTR/Briscoes this year.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It should never have been sanctioned, I can partly get Inoki’s tactics because he was not able to engage with Ali, no tackling, chops or punching etc these were negotiated on the fight day itself. They could have gone with something along the lines of allowing chops, punching and fighting in the clinch, but they effectively handicapped Inoki completely and it wasn’t really much of a showcase of two distinct styles. The aftermath was disastrous, fans in Japan hold Inoki in the same regard as Ali all around the world and it’s no surprise they rioted, Ali on the other hand suffered blood cots to his leg and even amputation was discussed, the damage also explains how his lateral movement in the ring and mobility had completely deteriorated, but what made Ali special beyond his insane technical ability was his heart and determination, he effectively lost his legs and was experiencing the early stages of Parkinson’s towards the end of his career, but still became a 3 time lineal world heavyweight champion, a feat yet to be matched. With these issues in mind can’t overly criticise the loss to leon spinks which he’d avenge. Ideally he should have retired after Foreman, but Boxing corruption was rampant at its peak in those days and fighters didn’t get paid as well as those in the present today.

Some interesting trivia, Vince Snr got the rights to broadcast the telecast for this exhibition and sold like 30k tickets in a stadium which people attended to watch the battle live.

Ali’s was widely popular in Pakistan, it’s surreal to think he actually visited there, not once, but twice!

Muhammad Ali is possibly the biggest guy in the mainstream and him being a devout Muslim only made him a bigger and more ideal role model for Muslims.

In addition, talking s about Muhammad Ali is still considered abominable in US.

And Inoki himself was a widely praised figure. He was immensely popular in Pakistan as well due to his bouts against Pehelwans in Pakistan. He lost to Jhara Pehelwan in 1978 at Gaddafi Stadium Lahore and Inoki was at his peak then. He also sort of adopted Jhara's nephew when he died prematurely and took him under wing to train him.

Andre the Giant competed on the undercard at Ali vs Inoki.

Another fun trivia that Inoki said in 2012 that he had converted to Islam during his trip to Iraq back in the day as well and had took on the name Muhammad Hussain Inoki.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Was swamped at work so finally got a chance to catch up on wrestling this week.

Loving the Sami/Bloodline odyssey and the Cody-Roman feud, which is starting to build. Yeah, I booked this feud months in advance but I'm still enjoying it. Looking forward to Cody bringing KO and Zayn back together, and more interplay between Cody and Roman/Heyman.

RAW was fun with the Cena-Theory segment. It was fun watching Cena gut Theory like a fish on the mic. But honestly, the more I see of Theory the more I think, this guy isn't even in the same universe as MJF. Too much about Theory feels manufactured and fake and I just can't get comfortable with the idea of him as a main-eventer just yet. And while Cena was doing it in kayfabe, he probably hit too close to home. Very fun segment tho.

And then ofcourse there was MJF v Danielson. Every bit as incredible as I expected it would be, and more. A 60 Minute Ironman match that went into overtime and yet never got boring. Easily one of the greatest wrestling matches of the modern era. In the same category as FTR/Briscoes, Punk/MJF, Omega/Danielson, Omega/Okada. Might be the greatest match AEW has ever put on. And it was an awesome PPV too.

No matter how bad or good their TV can be from time to time AEW almost always delivers with their PPVs. And besides 3 matches, this PPV had some great matches.

Ofcourse nothing comes close to the main-event. But I greatly enjoyed Mox v Page because I enjoy these modern hardcore matches if they are done right. Starks v Jericho was really good and credit to Jericho, he didn't get his win back like everyone thought he would. Put Starks over twice, clean and in the middle of the ring. No B.S. He must be listening to the critics lol. Jungle Boy v Christian was probably the surprise of the night. A Buried Alive/Casket match that actually looked like a fight where both guys had animosity towards each other and wanted to beat the other one. Why Christian isn't the #2 heel in this company after MJF beggars belief imo. Such a professional this guy who is incredible at everything that he does. And even House of Black v The Elite, I enjoyed for what it was, which was basically a video-game match.

I haven't watched Revolution yet and Bryan's matches are always great but I have just never bought the Iron Man stipulation. Didn't totally enjoy the Brock-Angle match that much either back in the day. Same thing with 2 out of 3 falls.

Yes I agree Theory is definitely not a maineventer which is why I don't want to see him beat Cena. It's just not believable.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I haven't watched Revolution yet and Bryan's matches are always great but I have just never bought the Iron Man stipulation. Didn't totally enjoy the Brock-Angle match that much either back in the day. Same thing with 2 out of 3 falls.

Yes I agree Theory is definitely not a maineventer which is why I don't want to see him beat Cena. It's just not believable.

Not seen to many great Ironman matches but this one takes the cake. A wrestling clinic through and through. If you like great wrestling then I don't see how you wouldn't like this.

Expected it from Danielson but MJF levelled up in a big way with this match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Curious to see who they will put MJF up against next. I think he could do a TV match against Jungle Boy and then move on to The empty headed dumbf**k. I want to see that as a full feud because I want MJF to talk about (indirectly) how this idiot irresponsibly opened his mouth and started a chain of events that created pure chaos in the company and ran off the biggest star they ever saw. Also wouldn't mind some hits at what an epic failure his world title run was despite being built up for the better part of two years. And I'm guessing the match will be good too.

 

[shaz619]

Muhammad Ali is possibly the biggest guy in the mainstream and him being a devout Muslim only made him a bigger and more ideal role model for Muslims.

In addition, talking s about Muhammad Ali is still considered abominable in US.

And Inoki himself was a widely praised figure. He was immensely popular in Pakistan as well due to his bouts against Pehelwans in Pakistan. He lost to Jhara Pehelwan in 1978 at Gaddafi Stadium Lahore and Inoki was at his peak then. He also sort of adopted Jhara's nephew when he died prematurely and took him under wing to train him.

Andre the Giant competed on the undercard at Ali vs Inoki.

Another fun trivia that Inoki said in 2012 that he had converted to Islam during his trip to Iraq back in the day as well and had took on the name Muhammad Hussain Inoki.

Inoki’s conversion was interesting, I feel it was more to do with securing the release of hostages. He had said he is more Buddhist in years prior to his death.

But it’s still staggering that he went through with it all and his name change was an actual reality opposed to the rumours on forums regarding the Undertaker’s conversion and subsequent name change to “Mohammad Ismail Taker” or “Mohammad Ismail Peer Taker”

 

[shaz619]

Bro I don't know if this term has any meaning anymore. Considering a match that Ospreay and Okada had that no one saw won it over FTR/Briscoes this year.

Publications have their bias but for us fans anyway it was a MOTY candidate for sure. PWI were pretty good until recently, I preferred Larry’s list at 411mania each year

 

[shaz619]

The IronMan match was top tier but not sure if it’s the best ever, will see with time. The initial falls could have been done better, AEW did a clumsy job off recording the falls to, they should have been more prepared for that. But MJF proved his worth which is the main story and Bryan did the ultimate job. Technically the match was beautiful and the finishing stretch was outstanding, it was inspired by “sudden death” from Shawn/Bret’s match at WM12, you could see they noted aspects of this match and incorporated it into their own, hence the similarity with the pacing especially.

Don’t know where MJF goes from here but there are very few people available on his level, I think he should bury Kenny Omega but he is playing heel at the moment I believe.

AEW desperately need Punk to comeback.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Inoki’s conversion was interesting, I feel it was more to do with securing the release of hostages. He had said he is more Buddhist in years prior to his death.

But it’s still staggering that he went through with it all and his name change was an actual reality opposed to the rumours on forums regarding the Undertaker’s conversion and subsequent name change to “Mohammad Ismail Taker” or “Mohammad Ismail Peer Taker”

Lol haven't heard about taker's conversion before. I do remember seeing a picture of him with some shaykh in a plane.

Don't know about Inoki, it was an unknown fact before he revealed it in 2012.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The IronMan match was top tier but not sure if it’s the best ever, will see with time. The initial falls could have been done better, AEW did a clumsy job off recording the falls to, they should have been more prepared for that. But MJF proved his worth which is the main story and Bryan did the ultimate job. Technically the match was beautiful and the finishing stretch was outstanding, it was inspired by “sudden death” from Shawn/Bret’s match at WM12, you could see they noted aspects of this match and incorporated it into their own, hence the similarity with the pacing especially.

Don’t know where MJF goes from here but there are very few people available on his level, I think he should bury Kenny Omega but he is playing heel at the moment I believe.

AEW desperately need Punk to comeback.

The Ironman match is a mythical match but I don't recall if I have seen alot of great ones. As I told you, I'm not a big fan of Shawn/Bret and while HHH/Benoit and Angle/Lesnar were really good, they were nothing special. This match though truly felt like an Ironman match. And there was alot of stuff here that I haven't seen before. Case in point: MJF getting those two quick falls after the nutshot.

MJF v a well-booked Adam Cole could be very good. Eddie Kingston will be a great feud purely for the promo battles. He surely has to wrestle Claudio aswell. I hope he goes up against Joe as well. How great would that be.

But ultimately Punk v MJF is the match, feud and story that matters most. It is the greatest story that AEW has ever told and should be the prime story of this promotion. Their Rock/Austin or their Hogan/Flair. Too bad that might possibly never happen again.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The Ironman match is a mythical match but I don't recall if I have seen alot of great ones. As I told you, I'm not a big fan of Shawn/Bret and while HHH/Benoit and Angle/Lesnar were really good, they were nothing special. This match though truly felt like an Ironman match. And there was alot of stuff here that I haven't seen before. Case in point: MJF getting those two quick falls after the nutshot.

MJF v a well-booked Adam Cole could be very good. Eddie Kingston will be a great feud purely for the promo battles. He surely has to wrestle Claudio aswell. I hope he goes up against Joe as well. How great would that be.

But ultimately Punk v MJF is the match, feud and story that matters most. It is the greatest story that AEW has ever told and should be the prime story of this promotion. Their Rock/Austin or their Hogan/Flair. Too bad that might possibly never happen again.

Think WCW's peak feud was Sting/Hogan.

I watched the match finally. It was great. MJF was able to match Bryan toe to toe but I'd still say Bryan was the better performer there. What's with everyone in BCC tapping out? They're more like guys who'd rather pass out than tap out. I'd like to see a Bryan-Joe and Eddie-Joe feud as well.

Seems like Guevara has been relegated and probably rightly so.

Bryan's body looks a bit different now. Like his skin looks loose. Arms a bit smaller. Seems like either age is catching up with him or vegan diet.

Joe/MJF would be real good.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think WCW's peak feud was Sting/Hogan.

I watched the match finally. It was great. MJF was able to match Bryan toe to toe but I'd still say Bryan was the better performer there. What's with everyone in BCC tapping out? They're more like guys who'd rather pass out than tap out. I'd like to see a Bryan-Joe and Eddie-Joe feud as well.

Seems like Guevara has been relegated and probably rightly so.

Bryan's body looks a bit different now. Like his skin looks loose. Arms a bit smaller. Seems like either age is catching up with him or vegan diet.

Joe/MJF would be real good.

It was definitely the biggest feud that they did at a time when the company was most successful financially. But the culmination of that feud left more of a sour taste in everyone's mouth than anything else. The reason I used Flair/Hogan was because those two were WCW's biggest draws, even till the late 90s (1999). And that was a feud that WCW revisited multiple times. Especially when they needed to draw some money.

They do tap out. Mox tapped out in the match against Page earlier that night. But they are leaning into the MMA stuff a bit so you do get most matches where guys are just choked out. It's hit and miss for me tbh because I don't watch MMA. But I guess some people like it. I think their group has gone heel so that should be interesting. I like their gimmick alot but feel it wasn't fleshed out as well as it should be. And Bryan has barely been part of the group in recent months. Maybe they will rectify that going forward.

Glad you liked it. It was a classic. Without a doubt Bryan was the standout performer here because he's the best pro wrestler in the world. But the reason MJF impressed me more is because he is still very young and obviously not nearly as accomplished as someone like Bryan. And yet he still held his own and put on a fantastic match. His heeling in particular was absolutely top-notch here

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It was definitely the biggest feud that they did at a time when the company was most successful financially. But the culmination of that feud left more of a sour taste in everyone's mouth than anything else. The reason I used Flair/Hogan was because those two were WCW's biggest draws, even till the late 90s (1999). And that was a feud that WCW revisited multiple times. Especially when they needed to draw some money.

They do tap out. Mox tapped out in the match against Page earlier that night. But they are leaning into the MMA stuff a bit so you do get most matches where guys are just choked out. It's hit and miss for me tbh because I don't watch MMA. But I guess some people like it. I think their group has gone heel so that should be interesting. I like their gimmick alot but feel it wasn't fleshed out as well as it should be. And Bryan has barely been part of the group in recent months. Maybe they will rectify that going forward.

Glad you liked it. It was a classic. Without a doubt Bryan was the standout performer here because he's the best pro wrestler in the world. But the reason MJF impressed me more is because he is still very young and obviously not nearly as accomplished as someone like Bryan. And yet he still held his own and put on a fantastic match. His heeling in particular was absolutely top-notch here

MJF is clearly way ahead of his peers from his generation.

If we look at guys of that gen,

MJF, Velveteen Dream, Lio Rush, Bron Breakker, Austin Theory, Hook, Jungle Boy, Carmelo Hayes, Darby, Tyler Bate, Dom Mysterio, Ilja Dragunov, Pete Dunne etc

Think Velveteen was the one who had incredible pull and makings of a truly great wrestler if he wasn't an effed up person.
Apart from that, we can see just how low down the order the guys like Dominik Mysterio and Hook are.

Tyler Bate is probably the most polished in ring worker from them but the guy needs personality, character work and mic skills.

Pete Dunne is incredible I would and have a pretty high ceiling. It's a shame that he isn't being used like he should be.

Bron Breakker is very talented and a natural athlete but he is quite behind in terms of development. I saw his match against Tyler Bate and Bate had to carry the whole match and make Bron look good.

Dominik is a weird case. He is so so in terms of in ring work. He moves with the speed of Big Show but works lucha style. But he has suprisingly become a pretty good heat magnet since joining JD. His prison gimmick has a lot of comedic potential.

Not considering Will Ospreay here as the guy has over 10 years of experience and in ring wise, I would say he is amongst the best workers out there but wrestles a dangerous style and gets injured frequently (compare to Ricochet who uses similar style but has a pretty good injury record). But as long as he is in NJPW, I don't think he's going to be able to improve his promo skills.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

MJF is clearly way ahead of his peers from his generation.

If we look at guys of that gen,

MJF, Velveteen Dream, Lio Rush, Bron Breakker, Austin Theory, Hook, Jungle Boy, Carmelo Hayes, Darby, Tyler Bate, Dom Mysterio, Ilja Dragunov, Pete Dunne etc

Think Velveteen was the one who had incredible pull and makings of a truly great wrestler if he wasn't an effed up person.
Apart from that, we can see just how low down the order the guys like Dominik Mysterio and Hook are.

Tyler Bate is probably the most polished in ring worker from them but the guy needs personality, character work and mic skills.

Pete Dunne is incredible I would and have a pretty high ceiling. It's a shame that he isn't being used like he should be.

Bron Breakker is very talented and a natural athlete but he is quite behind in terms of development. I saw his match against Tyler Bate and Bate had to carry the whole match and make Bron look good.

Dominik is a weird case. He is so so in terms of in ring work. He moves with the speed of Big Show but works lucha style. But he has suprisingly become a pretty good heat magnet since joining JD. His prison gimmick has a lot of comedic potential.

Not considering Will Ospreay here as the guy has over 10 years of experience and in ring wise, I would say he is amongst the best workers out there but wrestles a dangerous style and gets injured frequently (compare to Ricochet who uses similar style but has a pretty good injury record). But as long as he is in NJPW, I don't think he's going to be able to improve his promo skills.

I think out of the names you mentioned Bron Breakker, Hook and Dom have alot of potential. But they are very green and certainly light years away from where MJF right now. But I agree with most of what you said. I have to give credit to Dom though. From being a nothing guy with the personality of a mailbox, his character work has improved leaps and bounds. And I gotta say I have laughed at some of his promos. Just the other night he was saying something along the lines of ...."all my friends had new cars and all you could get me was a BMW" to Rey. The seriousness in which he delivers these promos are what make them so fun.

But I digress. One name that I think you missed was Ricky Starks. He is probably the most advanced young guy in the business after MJF.

Jungle Boy does not strike me as someone that will go very far. He lacks personality and charisma and is only good in the ring against the right opponents. Sammy Guevara is a total stuntman and will probably never be a main-eventer because he is more interested in doing crazy spots than wrestling, which he could do if he wanted to.

Darby is probably the next best young guy after Starks. He also has those stuntman tendencies but his selling is remarkable. And he can pull off that underdog schtick really well because unlike alot of others he actually tries wrestle according to his size. And his gimmick is unique too.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

MJF is clearly way ahead of his peers from his generation.

If we look at guys of that gen,

MJF, Velveteen Dream, Lio Rush, Bron Breakker, Austin Theory, Hook, Jungle Boy, Carmelo Hayes, Darby, Tyler Bate, Dom Mysterio, Ilja Dragunov, Pete Dunne etc

Think Velveteen was the one who had incredible pull and makings of a truly great wrestler if he wasn't an effed up person.
Apart from that, we can see just how low down the order the guys like Dominik Mysterio and Hook are.

Tyler Bate is probably the most polished in ring worker from them but the guy needs personality, character work and mic skills.

Pete Dunne is incredible I would and have a pretty high ceiling. It's a shame that he isn't being used like he should be.

Bron Breakker is very talented and a natural athlete but he is quite behind in terms of development. I saw his match against Tyler Bate and Bate had to carry the whole match and make Bron look good.

Dominik is a weird case. He is so so in terms of in ring work. He moves with the speed of Big Show but works lucha style. But he has suprisingly become a pretty good heat magnet since joining JD. His prison gimmick has a lot of comedic potential.

Not considering Will Ospreay here as the guy has over 10 years of experience and in ring wise, I would say he is amongst the best workers out there but wrestles a dangerous style and gets injured frequently (compare to Ricochet who uses similar style but has a pretty good injury record). But as long as he is in NJPW, I don't think he's going to be able to improve his promo skills.

Haven't seen enough of Hayes tbh. Ilja is an amazing in-ring talent. And like Gunther I feel he is a timeless talent i.e. someone who could have been successful in any era of wrestling. Lio Rush is incredibly talented. I have not seen anyone do some of the things he can do. But his attitude will never let him get particularly far. Sooner or later he alienates everyone he works with. Velveteen Dream is a pervert and out of this business for all intents and purposes. Can't say I'm all that impressed by Pete Dunne. His style is not for me,

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think out of the names you mentioned Bron Breakker, Hook and Dom have alot of potential. But they are very green and certainly light years away from where MJF right now. But I agree with most of what you said. I have to give credit to Dom though. From being a nothing guy with the personality of a mailbox, his character work has improved leaps and bounds. And I gotta say I have laughed at some of his promos. Just the other night he was saying something along the lines of ...."all my friends had new cars and all you could get me was a BMW" to Rey. The seriousness in which he delivers these promos are what make them so fun.

But I digress. One name that I think you missed was Ricky Starks. He is probably the most advanced young guy in the business after MJF.

Jungle Boy does not strike me as someone that will go very far. He lacks personality and charisma and is only good in the ring against the right opponents. Sammy Guevara is a total stuntman and will probably never be a main-eventer because he is more interested in doing crazy spots than wrestling, which he could do if he wanted to.

Darby is probably the next best young guy after Starks. He also has those stuntman tendencies but his selling is remarkable. And he can pull off that underdog schtick really well because unlike alot of others he actually tries wrestle according to his size. And his gimmick is unique too.

I was just naming the guys from the top of my head. Yeah Starks is brilliant.
Dom's prison gimmick has the potential to get very over.

Seems like Christian has been working hard with Jungle boy. Remains to be seen if he improves.

I don't want to sound weird but Logan Paul is in the similar age bracket. It's just that he is only part time and basically a celebrity. If he takes up pro wrestling full time, I think he has a very high ceiling. Considering he's only been training for about a year.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Haven't seen enough of Hayes tbh. Ilja is an amazing in-ring talent. And like Gunther I feel he is a timeless talent i.e. someone who could have been successful in any era of wrestling. Lio Rush is incredibly talented. I have not seen anyone do some of the things he can do. But his attitude will never let him get particularly far. Sooner or later he alienates everyone he works with. Velveteen Dream is a pervert and out of this business for all intents and purposes. Can't say I'm all that impressed by Pete Dunne. His style is not for me,

I don't really like Lio Rush. The guy is a nuisance.

Don't know if Ilja is as good as Walter, let's see.

I think Velveteen was going extremely well till his antics brought him down and rightly so.

I love Pete Dunne. His NXT Uk champ reign was extremely good.

Cameron Grimes has a good gimmick as well that can go over and has good comedic timing too. I loved his feud with La Knight.

 

[shaz619]

I have lost interest in wrestling recently.

I think Hunter has ruined some major stars and the potential of some big angles.

AEW is dull besides MJF.

It’s odd, this season should typically be more exciting.

 

[shaz619]

However, I saw some of the interview between Tyson and Taker it’s really good. Tyson has surprised me with his vast knowledge which goes back to the territory era and his appreciation for how tough wrestlers were.

In the space of a few weeks, both Tyson and Buffer have gone out of their way to praise Shawn Michaels. He truly is the greatest ever do it in the ring, he broke into the mainstream and got popular with casuals due to his ability to evoke emotion.

There’s a bloody image of him in the corner during the WM 20 match, it tells a thousand tales.

Tyson was closer to the WM 14 situation and kept calling Shawn a tough badass given how he worked despite needing surgery on his back, flying through the air and doing his best to get Austin over, he probably has a better view regarding the pain he would have been in but put on a brave face in the ring. That was meant to be the end of his career.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have lost interest in wrestling recently.

I think Hunter has ruined some major stars and the potential of some big angles.

AEW is dull besides MJF.

It’s odd, this season should typically be more exciting.

I agree the magic is missing considering the potential storylines going into Mania.

As much as I love Cody, I think Sami should have mainevented Mania. That's one problem of unifying the titles.
A lot of times, Rumble victory doesn't resonate with the majority and the audience start rooting for someone else with a better storyline in place.

Think they've been a bit too fast in terms of reuniting KO and Sami. (Shield reunions were always more resounding even though they attributed to little in terms of going forward)

But again, I can watch Sami and Jay storyline with just talking for hours. They're just too good.

I don't care what anyone says but The Bloodline has been the best storyline for last 10 years or so. Better than Evolution IMO.

 

[shaz619]

I agree the magic is missing considering the potential storylines going into Mania.

As much as I love Cody, I think Sami should have mainevented Mania. That's one problem of unifying the titles.
A lot of times, Rumble victory doesn't resonate with the majority and the audience start rooting for someone else with a better storyline in place.

Think they've been a bit too fast in terms of reuniting KO and Sami. (Shield reunions were always more resounding even though they attributed to little in terms of going forward)

But again, I can watch Sami and Jay storyline with just talking for hours. They're just too good.

I don't care what anyone says but The Bloodline has been the best storyline for last 10 years or so. Better than Evolution IMO.

There is no heat, I actually think it would be better if Reigns and The USOS retain. Sami may yet play a part in the main event but I can’t dee him being a competitor, you could argue Cody is manipulating both him and KO to help him take down the bloodline.

Anything Sami does turns to gold, whether in the ring or on the mic. This weeks SD is another example.

But they have sucked the life out of me when Sami was screwed by Trips in montreal. If Sami can’t be champion under Trips, he never will.

People moaning about the tag match not getting the main event are a joke, who really cares? the pay off will not involve Sami competing for the ultimate prize. I actually think its smart that Rhea and Charlotte are getting that chance, two bonafide stars, this will be Rhea’s coming home party, they will have a real tear up.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There is no heat, I actually think it would be better if Reigns and The USOS retain. Sami may yet play a part in the main event but I can’t dee him being a competitor, you could argue Cody is manipulating both him and KO to help him take down the bloodline.

Anything Sami does turns to gold, whether in the ring or on the mic. This weeks SD is another example.

But they have sucked the life out of me when Sami was screwed by Trips in montreal. If Sami can’t be champion under Trips, he never will.

People moaning about the tag match not getting the main event are a joke, who really cares? the pay off will not involve Sami competing for the ultimate prize. I actually think its smart that Rhea and Charlotte are getting that chance, two bonafide stars, this will be Rhea’s coming home party, they will have a real tear up.

There isn't really any other tag team that would take the titles then. But then again having Sami-KO team isn't really a long term plan.

Actually not giving Sami the title is opposite to what we usually expect from Trips. Sami is his NXT guy, Cody has always been a Vince guy. It was a perfect opportunity for Trips to have his NXT guy go over at the biggest stage of them all. So i don't know why trips hasn't done what he's usually famous for.

There's a chance Charlotte will Hogan her way at mania like she did at Rumble 2020 and got herself the win ahead of Shayna and then a meaningless victory at Mania as well.

 

[shaz619]

There isn't really any other tag team that would take the titles then. But then again having Sami-KO team isn't really a long term plan.

Actually not giving Sami the title is opposite to what we usually expect from Trips. Sami is his NXT guy, Cody has always been a Vince guy. It was a perfect opportunity for Trips to have his NXT guy go over at the biggest stage of them all. So i don't know why trips hasn't done what he's usually famous for.

There's a chance Charlotte will Hogan her way at mania like she did at Rumble 2020 and got herself the win ahead of Shayna and then a meaningless victory at Mania as well.

People over estimate Charlotte's influence, but it's not like she's a bum dosser, ignoring her ring prowess, she is one of the biggest stars on the main roster male or female. And I would much prefer her to go over compared to the charisma vacuum known as Shayna, she has zero main roster potential. Anyway, I would be shocked if Rhea does not go over, this is her time and it makes perfect sense for the heel to triumph at mania in this unusual scenario.

Yeah, they have history and chemistry but this reunion doesn't do much for me, it seems like they were just put together and we've long anticipated this would happen, which makes it even more underwhelming because the Bloodline angle was all about unpredictability and we were on a ride, the ship sailed at Montreal.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I gotta say that I disagree big time. Sami going over in Montreal would have been great. But ultimately this is always the story that should have been told. I think that by focusing on Sami winning the big one we are neglecting the storytelling and who Sami was coming into this story and who is is now, now that his arc is coming full circle. KO is kind of an essential component to the whole thing with the history that these two share. And this story doesn't fully work without those two (and Cody) coming together to bring the Bloodline down.

Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. And all you have to do is listen to the monster pops that we got on Raw when Jey super-kicked Sami and on SmackDown when KO and Sami finally reunited.

And Sami and KO winning the tag belts at Mania will be a momentous moment for a couple of reasons. a) the storyline has been brilliant and needs that match to put the finishing touch and make all of this matter. And b) if you've followed these two guys Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens from their days on the indies, wrestling infront of 20 people in rec. centers, its truly remarkable to think that a couple of weeks from now they will be wrestling on the grandest stage of them all...drawing arguably the biggest reaction of any other match on the card, involved in the hottest story of the year.

I would much rather have Sami get a proper arc when he (hopefully) finally wins the big one. I want him to go through 29 other men after coming in at 1 or 2. I want a proper storyline that is planned out with a proper build and the end result of him winning at Mania.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Worst thing of all is the treatment of LA Knight. Comes out and seems to get a bigger reaction with every passing week. And yet despite that, the only thing that seems to be a constant is him getting jobbed out. He has gotten zero major wins on TV since being run over in that feud by Bray Wyatt. Instead, now he is getting jobbed out to the freakin' New Day, who frankly s**k and haven't been relevant in atleast 4 years.

The guy should be a top heel on SmackDown. He is such a great worker and an even better promo. And this is what they've done with him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Worst thing of all is the treatment of LA Knight. Comes out and seems to get a bigger reaction with every passing week. And yet despite that, the only thing that seems to be a constant is him getting jobbed out. He has gotten zero major wins on TV since being run over in that feud by Bray Wyatt. Instead, now he is getting jobbed out to the freakin' New Day, who frankly s**k and haven't been relevant in atleast 4 years.

The guy should be a top heel on SmackDown. He is such a great worker and an even better promo. And this is what they've done with him.

Actually LA knight is good enough to be entertaining both as a face and heel. Hearing there are plans for him post mania. Although if not a feud, would rather have him win that battle royal at mania.

Yes New day without big e are just off. They haven't been booked well enough as a tag team due to Usos reigning supreme, but I don't really like watching Kofi and Xavier going over in singles matches. For some reason, they look like heels when they do solo matches.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I gotta say that I disagree big time. Sami going over in Montreal would have been great. But ultimately this is always the story that should have been told. I think that by focusing on Sami winning the big one we are neglecting the storytelling and who Sami was coming into this story and who is is now, now that his arc is coming full circle. KO is kind of an essential component to the whole thing with the history that these two share. And this story doesn't fully work without those two (and Cody) coming together to bring the Bloodline down.

Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. And all you have to do is listen to the monster pops that we got on Raw when Jey super-kicked Sami and on SmackDown when KO and Sami finally reunited.

And Sami and KO winning the tag belts at Mania will be a momentous moment for a couple of reasons. a) the storyline has been brilliant and needs that match to put the finishing touch and make all of this matter. And b) if you've followed these two guys Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens from their days on the indies, wrestling infront of 20 people in rec. centers, its truly remarkable to think that a couple of weeks from now they will be wrestling on the grandest stage of them all...drawing arguably the biggest reaction of any other match on the card, involved in the hottest story of the year.

I would much rather have Sami get a proper arc when he (hopefully) finally wins the big one. I want him to go through 29 other men after coming in at 1 or 2. I want a proper storyline that is planned out with a proper build and the end result of him winning at Mania.

KO and Sami getting a win together in front of mania crowd would have been great if both of them were in second or maybe third year of their wwe career. We have already seen them compete at Mania before, they've even competed at Mania as a tag team as well.

KO has turned on Sami like so many times in the past and this was the first time sami did what ko had been doing to him for all these years and now ko was getting all emo and stuff.

I feel like Jey betraying Sami and Sami and KO reuniting should have had some good gap in between. It was just done like as soon as Sami gets no favor from anyone in the bloodline, he runs over to KO.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I was just naming the guys from the top of my head. Yeah Starks is brilliant.
Dom's prison gimmick has the potential to get very over.

Seems like Christian has been working hard with Jungle boy. Remains to be seen if he improves.

I don't want to sound weird but Logan Paul is in the similar age bracket. It's just that he is only part time and basically a celebrity. If he takes up pro wrestling full time, I think he has a very high ceiling. Considering he's only been training for about a year.

This segment on Dynamite just reinforced everything I already thought about these guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkt8U0TTiT4

Jungle Boy has the charisma of a mailbox. No matter how hard he tries to be a tough guy, nobody is actually buying anything he says because of how unconvincing he is on promos. His personality is also non-existent, which could have made up for his lack of promo ability, if he only had any. So all he really has going for him is that he's a good wrestler. And there's only so far you can get in this business by being a good wrestler.

Sammy Guevara is an imbecile and a mark. Look at how he uses insider terms to come off as edgy here...by calling himself the Inner Circle's "job guy" and Jericho's "bump guy". It almost derails this entire segment. And also tells you, that even if he somehow learns to be smarter with his bumps, he will always be a complete idiot because this is how he thinks about the business.

Darby Allin is the only saving grace of this segment because he talks about what makes him unique and different. And why he is the kind of guy who defines AEW. Doesn't exactly give an earth-shatteringly great promo here or anything like that. But he has personality to make the people buy into him. And you can tell that just based on the reaction that he gets over the other two.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Actually LA knight is good enough to be entertaining both as a face and heel. Hearing there are plans for him post mania. Although if not a feud, would rather have him win that battle royal at mania.

Yes New day without big e are just off. They haven't been booked well enough as a tag team due to Usos reigning supreme, but I don't really like watching Kofi and Xavier going over in singles matches. For some reason, they look like heels when they do solo matches.

No doubt he is good enough to pull off both. But I think that he is special as a heel. And they need to explore the idea of him as a top level heel before they think about make him a babyface. But for that to happen he will actually have to graduate from being a jobber.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

This segment on Dynamite just reinforced everything I already thought about these guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkt8U0TTiT4

Jungle Boy has the charisma of a mailbox. No matter how hard he tries to be a tough guy, nobody is actually buying anything he says because of how unconvincing he is on promos. His personality is also non-existent, which could have made up for his lack of promo ability, if he only had any. So all he really has going for him is that he's a good wrestler. And there's only so far you can get in this business by being a good wrestler.

Sammy Guevara is an imbecile and a mark. Look at how he uses insider terms to come off as edgy here...by calling himself the Inner Circle's "job guy" and Jericho's "bump guy". It almost derails this entire segment. And also tells you, that even if he somehow learns to be smarter with his bumps, he will always be a complete idiot because this is how he thinks about the business.

Darby Allin is the only saving grace of this segment because he talks about what makes him unique and different. And why he is the kind of guy who defines AEW. Doesn't exactly give an earth-shatteringly great promo here or anything like that. But he has personality to make the people buy into him. And you can tell that just based on the reaction that he gets over the other two.

i watched that segment. Britt Baker is like that as well always using inside references in promos to draw a reaction. A lot of wrestlers today generation are marks. Garcia said having a meltzer 5star match was always in his bucket list.

I used to be fine with wrestlers using insider stuff and terms in promos but for some good time, i feel like wrestlers are now just doing it when they can't get the crowd to react.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

KO and Sami getting a win together in front of mania crowd would have been great if both of them were in second or maybe third year of their wwe career. We have already seen them compete at Mania before, they've even competed at Mania as a tag team as well.

KO has turned on Sami like so many times in the past and this was the first time sami did what ko had been doing to him for all these years and now ko was getting all emo and stuff.

I feel like Jey betraying Sami and Sami and KO reuniting should have had some good gap in between. It was just done like as soon as Sami gets no favor from anyone in the bloodline, he runs over to KO.

None of those matches had this storyline and character arc. The Bryan match was all about his comeback. The other participants in that match were a non-factor. The other match Owens and Zayn had at Mania was a very good match. But how long did it go? 10 minutes? And the storyline going into it was basically whatever they could put together in 3 weeks when they found out that these two didn't have a match for Mania.

Here it actually makes sense for these two to work together. Because for months, KO has been saying to Sami that these people don't care about you. They are not your family. Which made sense coming from him, because he basically is like family to him. And Sami constantly shunned him because back then he was taken away by the acceptance that the Bloodline provided him. But when it came down to it, he simply could not bash his best friend with a steel chair. And that's what led to this whole thing imploding for Sami.

When you think about it, they have laid the seeds for all this all the way from Survivor Series. Through subtle moments that all make sense now. I also think that they took plenty of time to bring these two back together. It has atleast been a month since KO has been coming and saying he is not interested in doing this with Sami.

For me, this is probably the greatest story that WWE has told since Triple H/Batista. The attention to detail and storytelling is truly remarkable.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

No doubt he is good enough to pull off both. But I think that he is special as a heel. And they need to explore the idea of him as a top level heel before they think about make him a babyface. But for that to happen he will actually have to graduate from being a jobber.

what's your opinion on Cameron Grimes? He had a very enjoyable feud with LA knight in NXT. Curious to see how Grimes do at the main roster with his stupidly good gimmick.

And Balor referenced The Demon last week in what turned out to be his best promo since he returned from NXT in 2021. I don't know if Demon should be a heel. Demon is a proper attraction. Meanwhile Brood Edge is not even a thing. And the newer generation don't even know what The Brood was about. Having Balor go over here would be a logical decision but they've probably had Edge lose to JD for his quota and WWE loves having Edge go over.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

None of those matches had this storyline and character arc. The Bryan match was all about his comeback. The other participants in that match were a non-factor. The other match Owens and Zayn had at Mania was a very good match. But how long did it go? 10 minutes? And the storyline going into it was basically whatever they could put together in 3 weeks when they found out that these two didn't have a match for Mania.

Here it actually makes sense for these two to work together. Because for months, KO has been saying to Sami that these people don't care about you. They are not your family. Which made sense coming from him, because he basically is like family to him. And Sami constantly shunned him because back then he was taken away by the acceptance that the Bloodline provided him. But when it came down to it, he simply could not bash his best friend with a steel chair. And that's what led to this whole thing imploding for Sami.

When you think about it, they have laid the seeds for all this all the way from Survivor Series. Through subtle moments that all make sense now. I also think that they took plenty of time to bring these two back together. It has atleast been a month since KO has been coming and saying he is not interested in doing this with Sami.

For me, this is probably the greatest story that WWE has told since Triple H/Batista. The attention to detail and storytelling is truly remarkable.

But how long do you see the two going as a team from there? I think KO and Sami are too good to just be in tag team picture especially when no other proper tag team has held the titles for over a year (with Usos having such a big reign).

I'd like to have Sami in the top card. Whatever stuff he's given, he has the ability to make something of it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

what's your opinion on Cameron Grimes? He had a very enjoyable feud with LA knight in NXT. Curious to see how Grimes do at the main roster with his stupidly good gimmick.

And Balor referenced The Demon last week in what turned out to be his best promo since he returned from NXT in 2021. I don't know if Demon should be a heel. Demon is a proper attraction. Meanwhile Brood Edge is not even a thing. And the newer generation don't even know what The Brood was about. Having Balor go over here would be a logical decision but they've probably had Edge lose to JD for his quota and WWE loves having Edge go over.

Honestly I have not seen enough of him to say anything definitive. I started following NXT towards the very end and right before 2.0. And went back and caught up with everything that I missed over the years. But I can't say that I went back and watched every episode of NXT. It was mainly the PPVs.

I dunno, I think it makes logical sense for Edge to win this match considering that the Judgement Day have basically been injuring him (in kayfabe) and leaving him laying after every other month in the past year. Finn got the big win in the 'I Quit' match too, which now seems like it happened ages ago. And as the babyface in this feud, I also think that it makes sense for Edge to win the final rubber match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But how long do you see the two going as a team from there? I think KO and Sami are too good to just be in tag team picture especially when no other proper tag team has held the titles for over a year (with Usos having such a big reign).

I'd like to have Sami in the top card. Whatever stuff he's given, he has the ability to make something of it.

The only reason you say that is because the WWE have devalued these belts so much. But that doesn't mean that they still have to be meaningless. It great feuds like these that can help restore value to these belts. Obviously this is not something that I see these two doing for long. Eventually they have to go in their seperate directions. Especially if Sami is to go for the big one one day.

The best thing about this can be that they can use them losing the tag belts as the launching pad for their break-up and eventual feud. Only this time it would be a main-event feud for the World title. Owens has to be the heel here and it can be a great opportunity to elevate both guys. But mainly to turn Sami into a main-event level guy.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If one year from now, its Sami v KO at Mania for the World title, I think it would be incredible.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The only reason you say that is because the WWE have devalued these belts so much. But that doesn't mean that they still have to be meaningless. It great feuds like these that can help restore value to these belts. Obviously this is not something that I see these two doing for long. Eventually they have to go in their seperate directions. Especially if Sami is to go for the big one one day.

The best thing about this can be that they can use them losing the tag belts as the launching pad for their break-up and eventual feud. Only this time it would be a main-event feud for the World title. Owens has to be the heel here and it can be a great opportunity to elevate both guys. But mainly to turn Sami into a main-event level guy.

Would be better if they are on different brands. I have seen Sami vs KO way too many times. NXT, then main roster 2016, then main roster again 2017, then 2021. I think their battleground 2016 match was the best one followed by last man standing 2021.

I am more interested in when do The Usos finally stick up for each other against Roman leading to Roman putting Jey over in a feud finally.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Would be better if they are on different brands. I have seen Sami vs KO way too many times. NXT, then main roster 2016, then main roster again 2017, then 2021. I think their battleground 2016 match was the best one followed by last man standing 2021.

I am more interested in when do The Usos finally stick up for each other against Roman leading to Roman putting Jey over in a feud finally.

I dunno. I think this is the kind of story that can never be boring. When you think about it, these two personify that mark chant "fight forever". I've seen them feud in ROH aswell (which was actually their best feud) and I'm still not bored of this feud. Because I know that the next time they meet, there will be just that added layer of history between them.

Their association with The Bloodline has to end after this feud. KO has been involved with Roman/Bloodline for far too long, dating all the way back to the pandemic. And after KO/Sami are done with the Usos (I'm assuming that there will be a rematch at Backlash too) then Sami needs to move on from the Bloodline too. And the reason is that there is not much to be gained from Sami/Owens even interacting with The Bloodline.

The whole idea of the current storyline is that these guys are going to take down The Bloodline. Wouldn't exactly be them taking The Bloodline down if they continue popping up. If anything, post Mania would be a great time to start teasing cracks within The Bloodline and begin the very subtle teases of Solo potentially going on his own. If Roman loses, he should go off TV till SummerSlam. Or right before SummerSlam, when he returns for his rematch with Cody.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I dunno. I think this is the kind of story that can never be boring. When you think about it, these two personify that mark chant "fight forever". I've seen them feud in ROH aswell (which was actually their best feud) and I'm still not bored of this feud. Because I know that the next time they meet, there will be just that added layer of history between them.

Their association with The Bloodline has to end after this feud. KO has been involved with Roman/Bloodline for far too long, dating all the way back to the pandemic. And after KO/Sami are done with the Usos (I'm assuming that there will be a rematch at Backlash too) then Sami needs to move on from the Bloodline too. And the reason is that there is not much to be gained from Sami/Owens even interacting with The Bloodline.

The whole idea of the current storyline is that these guys are going to take down The Bloodline. Wouldn't exactly be them taking The Bloodline down if they continue popping up. If anything, post Mania would be a great time to start teasing cracks within The Bloodline and begin the very subtle teases of Solo potentially going on his own. If Roman loses, he should go off TV till SummerSlam. Or right before SummerSlam, when he returns for his rematch with Cody.

Solo is still there. Someone needs to take him out as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

So that Roman Cody segment was genuinely top notch stuff. Roman has come such a long way since 2017. Cody was brilliant as usual. Should have started them cutting promos on each other 1 or 2 weeks earlier.

Hearing Randy is coming back around Mania, either before or the day after.

With everyone saying Seth-Logan or Walter-Sheamus-Drew are likely to be the best matches, my bet is on Edge-Balor match. The two have incredible chemistry, they showed a glimpse of it during that AJ/Finn vs JD feud but so far their matches have had silly stipulations meaning they haven't been able to showcase what the two can really do in the ring. Hopefully it will be a match without interferences.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

So that Roman Cody segment was genuinely top notch stuff. Roman has come such a long way since 2017. Cody was brilliant as usual. Should have started them cutting promos on each other 1 or 2 weeks earlier.

Hearing Randy is coming back around Mania, either before or the day after.

With everyone saying Seth-Logan or Walter-Sheamus-Drew are likely to be the best matches, my bet is on Edge-Balor match. The two have incredible chemistry, they showed a glimpse of it during that AJ/Finn vs JD feud but so far their matches have had silly stipulations meaning they haven't been able to showcase what the two can really do in the ring. Hopefully it will be a match without interferences.

Feels to me like this is always who Roman was. He just wasn't allowed the chance to be himself. Instead he was told to go out there and say sufferin' suckatash shoved down everyone's throats as a whitemeat babyface. For a modern audience that has seen it all, there was no way he was going to get over. But sadly Vince was too over-the-hill to understand that.

Besides the natural delivery and heelish arrogance, it's what he's saying here that's just as important. He's saying things that are very close to the truth and that automatically elevates the whole segment. The same applies to Cody.

I dunno about Balor-Edge. That feels like a feud that is way past its expiration date. I imagine it will be a slow-paced match with some theatrics, that will be okay. Sheamus-Drew-Gunther will probably be awesome. Logan-Seth will be a typical flashy, high-spot oriented modern match. The people who are into the high spot heavy wrestling will likely dig it. In other words, marks will go crazy for it.

Me though, I'm most looking forward to KO/Zayn v Usos and Roman v Cody. Those are two matches that genuinely feel like Mania matches. They have that big match feel. But hey, that's just me.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Punk's recent comments do not fill me with a lot of optimism about a potential return. Not that I blame him. I mean how long can you let a liar like Dave Meltzer besmirch you name, after being fed lies by a biased stooge like Chris Jericho?

At any rate, Punk's comments are a damning indictment of the professionalism of Jon Moxley and Tony Khan. For context: Moxley didn't want to do the job for Punk in their first match and Tony pressurized Punk to wrestle eventhough Punk was not medically cleared.

One thing is absolutely certain though now, there is probably no bigger leak in the AEW locker-room than Chris Jericho. For all we know, he is probably the one who played up the Colt Cabana stuff to Dave that started all this. Sad to see what has become of a guy who used to be my favorite wrestler at one point. He's like a washed up rockstar trying to do everything he can to cling to the last vestiges of his youth. He's trying to fit in with the cool kids, trying to "wrestle 5 star matches", and yet at the end, it all feels like a desperate attempt to distract you from the fact that he hasn't been involved in a compelling storyline or angle since the first year of AEW...all while looking like a washed up rockstar who last used to be great like a decade ago.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Feels to me like this is always who Roman was. He just wasn't allowed the chance to be himself. Instead he was told to go out there and say sufferin' suckatash shoved down everyone's throats as a whitemeat babyface. For a modern audience that has seen it all, there was no way he was going to get over. But sadly Vince was too over-the-hill to understand that.

Besides the natural delivery and heelish arrogance, it's what he's saying here that's just as important. He's saying things that are very close to the truth and that automatically elevates the whole segment. The same applies to Cody.

I dunno about Balor-Edge. That feels like a feud that is way past its expiration date. I imagine it will be a slow-paced match with some theatrics, that will be okay. Sheamus-Drew-Gunther will probably be awesome. Logan-Seth will be a typical flashy, high-spot oriented modern match. The people who are into the high spot heavy wrestling will likely dig it. In other words, marks will go crazy for it.

Me though, I'm most looking forward to KO/Zayn v Usos and Roman v Cody. Those are two matches that genuinely feel like Mania matches. They have that big match feel. But hey, that's just me.

Yes Roman wasn't allowed to play a character that he was comfortable in and That Big Dog character didn't make any sense at all. But I think the guy can be just as good as a face as he is being a heel considering he does his own thing.

The expressions, the body language, the trash talk during the match etc Roman has improved all of that. He wasn't really that good in acting or evoking emotions before. Even by the start of his Tribal Chief run, he hadn't come into his own. I mean the improvement is obvious. The only time I saw Roman doing some acting before was when Seth hit him with the chair during Shield's fallout.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes Roman wasn't allowed to play a character that he was comfortable in and That Big Dog character didn't make any sense at all. But I think the guy can be just as good as a face as he is being a heel considering he does his own thing.

The expressions, the body language, the trash talk during the match etc Roman has improved all of that. He wasn't really that good in acting or evoking emotions before. Even by the start of his Tribal Chief run, he hadn't come into his own. I mean the improvement is obvious. The only time I saw Roman doing some acting before was when Seth hit him with the chair during Shield's fallout.

Yup. He has become one of the best promos/personalities in the business with this current run. Interested to see where it goes for him after WrestleMania. Assuming he loses the match against Cody that everyone expects him to.

My guess would be that he goes away till SummerSlam. And then comes back for the return match with Cody. But what happens then? Does he lose again? Do they find a way to get one belt off Cody? Should be interesting

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yup. He has become one of the best promos/personalities in the business with this current run. Interested to see where it goes for him after WrestleMania. Assuming he loses the match against Cody that everyone expects him to.

My guess would be that he goes away till SummerSlam. And then comes back for the return match with Cody. But what happens then? Does he lose again? Do they find a way to get one belt off Cody? Should be interesting

Think if he loses to Cody, he'll take a hiatus and won't come back to resume his feud with Cody. No way they are going to have him take two losses to the same guy. He'll probs just come back and feud with someone near the top. There's a better chance he'll come back to put over Jay.

 

[shaz619]

Punk's recent comments do not fill me with a lot of optimism about a potential return. Not that I blame him. I mean how long can you let a liar like Dave Meltzer besmirch you name, after being fed lies by a biased stooge like Chris Jericho?

At any rate, Punk's comments are a damning indictment of the professionalism of Jon Moxley and Tony Khan. For context: Moxley didn't want to do the job for Punk in their first match and Tony pressurized Punk to wrestle eventhough Punk was not medically cleared.

One thing is absolutely certain though now, there is probably no bigger leak in the AEW locker-room than Chris Jericho. For all we know, he is probably the one who played up the Colt Cabana stuff to Dave that started all this. Sad to see what has become of a guy who used to be my favorite wrestler at one point. He's like a washed up rockstar trying to do everything he can to cling to the last vestiges of his youth. He's trying to fit in with the cool kids, trying to "wrestle 5 star matches", and yet at the end, it all feels like a desperate attempt to distract you from the fact that he hasn't been involved in a compelling storyline or angle since the first year of AEW...all while looking like a washed up rockstar who last used to be great like a decade ago.

It was Jericho! Jericho all along! I should have paid closer attention to The experience then I did but, ones youth fandom of Y2J got in the way. Mox for all his woes with WWE creative, is just showing me what a numpty he would be if he was given full reign over proceedings, he Hoganed Punk and Khan ate it all up, cheap getting a guy to work when not clear medically, there was no urgency to do that whatsoever besides ineptness and ego’s.

It still amazes me Meltzer is treated like royalty in journalism, in many ways he epitomises wrestling media as a whole.

Jericho has benefited massively from the whole angle and Khan is too gullible to see it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It was Jericho! Jericho all along! I should have paid closer attention to The experience then I did but, ones youth fandom of Y2J got in the way. Mox for all his woes with WWE creative, is just showing me what a numpty he would be if he was given full reign over proceedings, he Hoganed Punk and Khan ate it all up, cheap getting a guy to work when not clear medically, there was no urgency to do that whatsoever besides ineptness and ego’s.

It still amazes me Meltzer is treated like royalty in journalism, in many ways he epitomises wrestling media as a whole.

Jericho has benefited massively from the whole angle and Khan is too gullible to see it.

Were you referencing WandaVision there?

Of all the people, I never thought Y2J would be the one to stoop so low. An accomplished great shouldn't even care about Meltzer the pretzel.

Been saying this Mox does have issues and Brock probably rightly put him in place during their Mania match by changing it to a 10 min squash. Even Austin seemed annoyed at him during their interview back in 2016 or 2017.

That's one reason I vouch for WWE's philosophy for not catering one bit to these so called journalists in terms of laying out structure of matches and stuff. These match reviews and star ratings is the least important thing there.

 

[shaz619]

Were you referencing WandaVision there?

Of all the people, I never thought Y2J would be the one to stoop so low. An accomplished great shouldn't even care about Meltzer the pretzel.

Been saying this Mox does have issues and Brock probably rightly put him in place during their Mania match by changing it to a 10 min squash. Even Austin seemed annoyed at him during their interview back in 2016 or 2017.

That's one reason I vouch for WWE's philosophy for not catering one bit to these so called journalists in terms of laying out structure of matches and stuff. These match reviews and star ratings is the least important thing there.

Not seen that show and it is a shame Jericho has gone that way, he has been stirring the pot in the press, I believe he has been talking to Wade Keller to.

He’s an odd personality Mox. Brock didn’t respect him, otherwise their match could have been a lot better than it was, Mox had attitude issues back then and increasingly disgruntled. He had massive potential but his ring IQ is very low.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

Taker vs Hogan at SS 1991 came up on my YT suggestions, I watched it on WWE’s YT channel last night.

While fans were popping for Hogan, it would appear it was mostly women, kids and his die hard fans. You could argue perhaps 40% off that live audience was supporting Taker / the number of people were increasingly warming to him, albeit still terrified. For a dark character to receive that reception and especially that pop when he pinned Hogan for his first title, must have been huge in that period. He had the title only for a week so they may have been testing the waters to some extent.

WWF invested heavily in the Ric/Hogan programme and this match was used to set up their match, I think they only pulled the plug in February of 92.

Some have suggested the house show response, but these were poorly advertised and at least one of the shows they did, was close to a sell out and Flair got a huge pop when he got a fall with a knuckle duster.

I know both were refusing to lose to each other to (more Hogan than Flair), but I think they were in a sticky situation; Hogan was going to leave the WWF so they didn’t need him to carry the trap + steroid scandal proceedings had begun and up until that point, no heel had ever gone over in the main event of Wrestlemania.

I don’t necessarily buy that the two wouldn’t have been able to work together from a psychological stand point in the ring given their varying styles, Hogan was accomplished with the main stream WWF/central style while Flair more southern, but Hogan had shown how versatile he was in Japan and Flair could just about adapt to any worker, just imagine how crazy fans would be going when Flair would bump around for Hogan? I think there was a middle ground where both styles and their attributes could have meshed for a WWF audience.

I think more than anything, I feel they were a little creatively bankrupt, in that they were afraid to have Hogan go over for the title when he was going to leave and on top of that were unsure if the match would work well with Flair being the smaller guy compared to the typical Hogan opponent. They may have partially been misled by the house shows despite the poor promotion for those.

Question is, you can’t have Hogan as champion and Flair can’t go over as a top heel at Mania, plus Hogan’s ego to deal with. One solution could have been to have Hogan go over at Mania but drop the title shortly after during a special taping. I believe the programme was money and it was a big missed opportunity.

P.S The match between Hogan and Taker wasn’t bad as a casual watch, Taker was dedicated to his character and it translated in his work, the expressions on the women and kids were priceless, Hulk is Hulk but his ring awareness was pretty good and the match flowed nicely.

 

[The_KING]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

Taker vs Hogan at SS 1991 came up on my YT suggestions, I watched it on WWEÂ’s YT channel last night.

While fans were popping for Hogan, it would appear it was mostly women, kids and his die hard fans. You could argue perhaps 40% off that live audience was supporting Taker / the number of people were increasingly warming to him, albeit still terrified. For a dark character to receive that reception and especially that pop when he pinned Hogan for his first title, must have been huge in that period. He had the title only for a week so they may have been testing the waters to some extent.

P.S The match between Hogan and Taker wasnÂ’t bad as a casual watch, Taker was dedicated to his character and it translated in his work, the expressions on the women and kids were priceless, Hulk is Hulk but his ring awareness was pretty good and the match flowed nicely.

That was an underrated match. It was probably the best match they could have had. It was a whole lot better than their 2002 Judgement Day match, which was a complete disaster.

Undertaker had a lot of crowd support, despite being a heel at the time. Undertaker was getting over with the crowd at that time and he would soon turn face in lead up to Wrestlemania.

And it also appears that fans were getting tired of the Hulkamania nonsense by that point, which had been going since the mid 80s.

Undertaker spoke about this match after his retirement. He said that Hogan complained about Undertaker injuring his neck while giving him the tombstone piledriver on the chair. The replays showed that Hogan's neck was not even close to the chair, so Hogan lied about Taker injuring him. Sadly, Hogan ended up winning the title back just two days later. Hogan was a master politician like no other.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That was an underrated match. It was probably the best match they could have had. It was a whole lot better than their 2002 Judgement Day match, which was a complete disaster.

Undertaker had a lot of crowd support, despite being a heel at the time. Undertaker was getting over with the crowd at that time and he would soon turn face in lead up to Wrestlemania.

And it also appears that fans were getting tired of the Hulkamania nonsense by that point, which had been going since the mid 80s.

Undertaker spoke about this match after his retirement. He said that Hogan complained about Undertaker injuring his neck while giving him the tombstone piledriver on the chair. The replays showed that Hogan's neck was not even close to the chair, so Hogan lied about Taker injuring him. Sadly, Hogan ended up winning the title back just two days later. Hogan was a master politician like no other.

That 2002 JD match was so awful. Hogan sandbagged that final chokeslam. That 2 month reign of Hogan as WWE champ in 2002 felt so out of place. The leg drop had become a pretty weak finisher by then.

 

[shaz619]

That was an underrated match. It was probably the best match they could have had. It was a whole lot better than their 2002 Judgement Day match, which was a complete disaster.

Undertaker had a lot of crowd support, despite being a heel at the time. Undertaker was getting over with the crowd at that time and he would soon turn face in lead up to Wrestlemania.

And it also appears that fans were getting tired of the Hulkamania nonsense by that point, which had been going since the mid 80s.

Undertaker spoke about this match after his retirement. He said that Hogan complained about Undertaker injuring his neck while giving him the tombstone piledriver on the chair. The replays showed that Hogan's neck was not even close to the chair, so Hogan lied about Taker injuring him. Sadly, Hogan ended up winning the title back just two days later. Hogan was a master politician like no other.

Yes, the tide was changing for sure and the WWF would find out the hard way. It was the Cena spotlight situation of its day, except Hogan did reinvent himself later in WCW. That tombstone was perfectly executed, more then that injury I think it could have been a combination of a couple of things, I don’t know if they wanted to have either of their top stars put over NWA’s greatest especially Hogan, or more simply given that Hogan would never want to put over Flair to maybe both parties played a part the talent and leadership, they stirred up two controversial title changes to set up a situation where the title is vacated and that way they can get the belt on Flair. This way all three don’t lose too much steam. I think it got Taker more over in hindsight.

The 02 match was horrid indeed.

 

[shaz619]

That 2002 JD match was so awful. Hogan sandbagged that final chokeslam. That 2 month reign of Hogan as WWE champ in 2002 felt so out of place. The leg drop had become a pretty weak finisher by then.

You reckon? I never had an issue with it, especially a Heavyweight larger than life wrestler like Hogan, the move was taxing on his back, dropping all that weight and he needed numerous surgeries as a result, Hogan regrets using it as his finisher. Someone like a Becky doing it is weak though. You could argue the people’s elbow was weak but I never had an issue with it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

You reckon? I never had an issue with it, especially a Heavyweight larger than life wrestler like Hogan, the move was taxing on his back, dropping all that weight and he needed numerous surgeries as a result, Hogan regrets using it as his finisher. Someone like a Becky doing it is weak though. You could argue the people’s elbow was weak but I never had an issue with it.

Leg Drop was a great finisher in 80s and early 90s but by then finishers had evolved and there were Tombstone Piledriver, Pedigree, Stunner, F5 etc were the destructive looking moves. People's Elbow was definitely quite weak. But The leg drop by then had been watered down and was being frequently kicked out of, that it didn't really felt like a finisher. Sort of the same thing WWE had done so with the Angle Slam and Booker T's Scissors kick. Cena's FU or AA is pretty weak looking as well.

 

[The_KING]

That 2002 JD match was so awful. Hogan sandbagged that final chokeslam. That 2 month reign of Hogan as WWE champ in 2002 felt so out of place. The leg drop had become a pretty weak finisher by then.

Hogan only became the WWE champion in 2002, due to the nostalgia of the Hulkamania. But it was evident that he was done as a wrestler by 2002. Except for the match against Rock at Wrestlemania 18, which was a really good match, all his other single matches were dire. That is why WWE had him in a tag team with Edge, in order to hide his limitations in the ring.


Leg Drop was a great finisher in the 80s, but by 2002, it had become overused and as a result, weak. A bit like the superkick in 2023.

 

[The_KING]

Yes, the tide was changing for sure and the WWF would find out the hard way. It was the Cena spotlight situation of its day, except Hogan did reinvent himself later in WCW. That tombstone was perfectly executed, more then that injury I think it could have been a combination of a couple of things, I don’t know if they wanted to have either of their top stars put over NWA’s greatest especially Hogan, or more simply given that Hogan would never want to put over Flair to maybe both parties played a part the talent and leadership, they stirred up two controversial title changes to set up a situation where the title is vacated and that way they can get the belt on Flair. This way all three don’t lose too much steam. I think it got Taker more over in hindsight.

The 02 match was horrid indeed.

In regards to Hogan, we missed out on two potential big Wrestlemania matches. Against Flair in 1992 and against Austin in 2002. Both times, I suspect it was mainly due to Hogan's massive ego and not willing to put the other guy over, brother.

 

[shaz619]

In regards to Hogan, we missed out on two potential big Wrestlemania matches. Against Flair in 1992 and against Austin in 2002. Both times, I suspect it was mainly due to Hogan's massive ego and not willing to put the other guy over, brother.

For the first one he may have played a notable role but it was a collective effort, remember he was going to leave right after so his influence was waining. For the second one, JR, Austin himself and others alluded to stylistic differences, Austin strongly felt the two wouldn’t have chemistry in the ring, not denying there may have been tension between the two and who goes over would have been a big thing, but at that point I think Austin just had a great deal of influence and Hogan would have had to play ball, especially for the money, Austin had a high level ring IQ and great knack for picking the right person to work with, we saw that more recently with KO, at first everyone was like meh but the build was great and the match was outstanding, Hogan was getting cheered a lot to and that may have impacted the in-ring dynamic, looking back in that moment in time The Rock was the better opponent for Hogan and it ended up being one of the best wrestlemania matches of all time.

 

[shaz619]

Hogan only became the WWE champion in 2002, due to the nostalgia of the Hulkamania. But it was evident that he was done as a wrestler by 2002. Except for the match against Rock at Wrestlemania 18, which was a really good match, all his other single matches were dire. That is why WWE had him in a tag team with Edge, in order to hide his limitations in the ring.


Leg Drop was a great finisher in the 80s, but by 2002, it had become overused and as a result, weak. A bit like the superkick in 2023.

Possibly but it’s one thing a lightweight doing the move and another a Heavyweight, in the WWF the move was protected. In WCW it lost its edge a little because Hogan was reckless with it and in doing so injured his back badly, but when he came back to the WWE it was fine, not many people had it as a finisher/signature, I can only think of Taker doing it as the ring apron spot. It may have been used casually here and there, no one did the move like Hogan so it never lost the impact

The super kick is the most abused move of the 21st century, but even now, if HBK returned and was in pomp, his technique is vastly superior.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Hogan only became the WWE champion in 2002, due to the nostalgia of the Hulkamania. But it was evident that he was done as a wrestler by 2002. Except for the match against Rock at Wrestlemania 18, which was a really good match, all his other single matches were dire. That is why WWE had him in a tag team with Edge, in order to hide his limitations in the ring.


Leg Drop was a great finisher in the 80s, but by 2002, it had become overused and as a result, weak. A bit like the superkick in 2023.

Yes exactly what I said.

I will still say that Mania 18 match is my all time favorite. I don't remember being so charged up at 7 in the morning as much as I was that day watching Mania 18 live on Supersport.

Think Edge was a Vince product who he had been investing in since late 90s. He was paired with Edge to get Edge noticed cause Hogan was one of the biggest names even when he was well past his prime.

If you remember, Edge as a singles guy would get 0 reactions from the crowd. He was great in the ring even back then. His mic skills were developing but he couldn't really get the crowd to react. They even had him spear Eric Bischoff (the no.1 villain authority figure) on his return and there was silence in the crowd. That clip is on YT as well.

Edge(as a singles guy) started getting crowd reactions when he wrestled Lesnar and Heyman at Rebellion. A forgotten gem. His promo before the match was the exact time I became a fan of him. Edge was very injury prone back then. He graduated to the next level during his feud with Benoit.

Regarding superkick, I would blame the indies for that. Superkick is an absolute good looking finisher, but everyone in the indies do it as a regular move and when they get signed up to the big promotions, they bring that with them.

Indies don't respect finishers. They literally kick out of every move possible. Okada uses Tombstone frequently.

Burning hammer is one absolutely brutal looking finisher. Would like someone to bring it to WWE. Walter maybe?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It was Jericho! Jericho all along! I should have paid closer attention to The experience then I did but, ones youth fandom of Y2J got in the way. Mox for all his woes with WWE creative, is just showing me what a numpty he would be if he was given full reign over proceedings, he Hoganed Punk and Khan ate it all up, cheap getting a guy to work when not clear medically, there was no urgency to do that whatsoever besides ineptness and ego’s.

It still amazes me Meltzer is treated like royalty in journalism, in many ways he epitomises wrestling media as a whole.

Jericho has benefited massively from the whole angle and Khan is too gullible to see it.

According to Meltzer himself, Punk and AEW were close to reaching a deal for Punk's comeback until "Punk's Instagram post were he went off"....funny how this idiot conveniently missed out on the very important detail of him floating a bunch of unverified lies on his message board that fanned the flames and made Punk respond to set the record straight.

As awful as Jericho has become though, and as much as I hate the Young Bucks and Adam Page as people, ultimately I think Dave is by far the worst. Because he has constantly reported unverified, biased and factually incorrect accounts of events.

And the worst thing about him is that in most cases he probably doesn't even go out with the intention of burying someone. He's just a useful idiot who gets played by people like Jericho (reportedly a Meltzer mole since the 90s) and the Bucks. And because he's so blinded by the promise of making headlines and getting those subscriptions, he doesn't care even care to check if he is reporting outright lies.

The funniest gaffe he made recently was reporting on DragonGate's alleged issues after a guy pretending to be working in the promotion reached out to him via email. This guy (who did not have anything to do with DragonGate) apparently reached out to a number of other wrestling journalists but they were able to deduce that it was B.S. Dave though ran with the story and then had to issue an apology on his show:

https://wrestletalk.com/news/dave-meltzer-apology-hoax-stories-dragon-gate/

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That was an underrated match. It was probably the best match they could have had. It was a whole lot better than their 2002 Judgement Day match, which was a complete disaster.

Undertaker had a lot of crowd support, despite being a heel at the time. Undertaker was getting over with the crowd at that time and he would soon turn face in lead up to Wrestlemania.

And it also appears that fans were getting tired of the Hulkamania nonsense by that point, which had been going since the mid 80s.

Undertaker spoke about this match after his retirement. He said that Hogan complained about Undertaker injuring his neck while giving him the tombstone piledriver on the chair. The replays showed that Hogan's neck was not even close to the chair, so Hogan lied about Taker injuring him. Sadly, Hogan ended up winning the title back just two days later. Hogan was a master politician like no other.

The only thing Hogan was better at than politicking was lying. Its hard to think of a major wrestler that is as full of s**t as him. But this doesn't even scratch the surface of something like his defence of what went down at Starrcade 1997.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In regards to Hogan, we missed out on two potential big Wrestlemania matches. Against Flair in 1992 and against Austin in 2002. Both times, I suspect it was mainly due to Hogan's massive ego and not willing to put the other guy over, brother.

Funnily enough, these are two unique cases where I think Hogan wasn't to blame for a big match not taking place.

Flair is a weird one. Lot of differing accounts of why that match didn't go down. But I find it hard to blame Hogan for this one unless he knew beforehand that he wasn't going over. Because Hogan always loved working with Flair, mainly because he knew that Flair would make him look like a million bucks.

Re: the Austin match, that one is pretty clear. Austin didn't want to work with him. Probably had something to do with Hogan's behavior/politicking back when Austin was in WCW that Austin didn't forget all those years later. Not that I blame him. But the second is pretty clear because JR is as definitive of a voice on Stone Cold as anyone.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Not seen that show and it is a shame Jericho has gone that way, he has been stirring the pot in the press, I believe he has been talking to Wade Keller to.

He’s an odd personality Mox. Brock didn’t respect him, otherwise their match could have been a lot better than it was, Mox had attitude issues back then and increasingly disgruntled. He had massive potential but his ring IQ is very low.

I didn't agree with your point about Mox ring IQ in the past but with time I've come to see what you mean. From what I've deduced, Mox's whole deal seems to be that he is far too inspired by MMA. I get that MMA has a place in modern day wrestling and you can lend an added degree of realism to pro-wrestling by adding elements of MMA. But the biggest difference between MMA and pro-wrestling is that one is real while the other is not.

You'll be really invested in this "good guy" hoping that he wins this big fight, and next thing you know he gets knocked out in 2 minutes. On top of that the psychology of MMA and wrestling is simply not the same. You don't always get a face and a heel in MMA. So you can't just copy s**t from what is a real combat sport and put it into wrestling, which has historically been at its best when it has relied on structured storytelling that is logical and makes sense.

I'm a big fan of Mox and what he has accomplished. Like Punk, he had the guts to leave WWE because he was unhappy and thought he deserved better. The huge money was not a factor to him, being booked well was. And then ofcourse he had the guts to bet on himself and you can't say that it didn't pay off because even more than MJF, he is the closest thing that AEW has to a top guy. No one has held the belt more than him or flown the flag for AEW has World Champion during more testing times.

But sometimes his matches just make you scratch your head. And I've noticed it more lately than I did before. He can still have amazing matches. But I'd be happier if 80% of them didn't have him bleeding for absolutely no reason and choking the guy out in the middle of the ring in completely flat finish.

 

[shaz619]

I didn't agree with your point about Mox ring IQ in the past but with time I've come to see what you mean. From what I've deduced, Mox's whole deal seems to be that he is far too inspired by MMA. I get that MMA has a place in modern day wrestling and you can lend an added degree of realism to pro-wrestling by adding elements of MMA. But the biggest difference between MMA and pro-wrestling is that one is real while the other is not.

You'll be really invested in this "good guy" hoping that he wins this big fight, and next thing you know he gets knocked out in 2 minutes. On top of that the psychology of MMA and wrestling is simply not the same. You don't always get a face and a heel in MMA. So you can't just copy s**t from what is a real combat sport and put it into wrestling, which has historically been at its best when it has relied on structured storytelling that is logical and makes sense.

I'm a big fan of Mox and what he has accomplished. Like Punk, he had the guts to leave WWE because he was unhappy and thought he deserved better. The huge money was not a factor to him, being booked well was. And then ofcourse he had the guts to bet on himself and you can't say that it didn't pay off because even more than MJF, he is the closest thing that AEW has to a top guy. No one has held the belt more than him or flown the flag for AEW has World Champion during more testing times.

But sometimes his matches just make you scratch your head. And I've noticed it more lately than I did before. He can still have amazing matches. But I'd be happier if 80% of them didn't have him bleeding for absolutely no reason and choking the guy out in the middle of the ring in completely flat finish.

Mox is a deeply trouble individual with significant mental problems, he grew up poor, stole food to eat enough and abused drugs. He’s an introverted guy so can’t really communicate effectively unless it’s an artificial situation, this is why he comes across as so odd during interviews and has difficulty expressing himself. Being a product of the east, his attitudes are a lot different to someone from the south, am not saying he’s any less tougher but in the east they handle things differently and are extremely stubborn, this may explain why Austin was so bemused by his behaviour, the US is huge and there’s a big culture clash between states. Wrestling was an escape for him and I think his worst internal tendencies manifested in CZW, for the better when it came to promos but for the worst in the ring. Not being able to get that beast out in a structured environment like the WWE must have been a big issue for him, but mental turbulence can manifest anytime and despite Tony giving him the freedom to be his own boss, he still needed to go into rehab, and I think a part of it is that he is someone who could benefit from structure even though he doesn’t realise it, mental turmoil needs routine and structure.

I think a combination of his personal issues and lack of ring awareness come out in his matches, but you really do wonder on the latter point because he keeps doing the same thing over and over which points to a deeper issue, this guy was trained by Les Thatcher and was exposed to guys like Steamboat and Harley, it doesn’t make any sense. His IQ may not have been poor originally but in recent times it had deteriorated significantly. I am all for more realism between the ropes, but his interpretation of that and analogy with MMA is poor. Lesnar, Bryan, Angle, Benoit, Bret and even Kyle O’Reilly are better examples of how to incorporate combat sports or free style wrestling in pro-wrestling environment.

For AEW, for the most part Mox was been a stand up guy from them apart from his need to satisfy his inner issues by indulging outlaw mud-shows or blading excessively like a mad man. But creatively, am afraid he hasn’t delivered for me in terms of the ceiling which is possible given his talents.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Really feel for Lashley here. From unexplained a few heel face turns in the last year to being involved in one of the box office feuds with Lesnar leading up to Mania (regardless of how poorly booked it was) to being inserted in a nonsensical spooky feud with Bray to getting relegated to Andre The Giant Battle Royal on the SD before Mania is a real shame.

Seems like Bray is a void who when he touches anything gets sucked into a void. Only Bryan and Cena have been able to come out of a feud with him unscathed.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Mox is a deeply trouble individual with significant mental problems, he grew up poor, stole food to eat enough and abused drugs. He’s an introverted guy so can’t really communicate effectively unless it’s an artificial situation, this is why he comes across as so odd during interviews and has difficulty expressing himself. Being a product of the east, his attitudes are a lot different to someone from the south, am not saying he’s any less tougher but in the east they handle things differently and are extremely stubborn, this may explain why Austin was so bemused by his behaviour, the US is huge and there’s a big culture clash between states. Wrestling was an escape for him and I think his worst internal tendencies manifested in CZW, for the better when it came to promos but for the worst in the ring. Not being able to get that beast out in a structured environment like the WWE must have been a big issue for him, but mental turbulence can manifest anytime and despite Tony giving him the freedom to be his own boss, he still needed to go into rehab, and I think a part of it is that he is someone who could benefit from structure even though he doesn’t realise it, mental turmoil needs routine and structure.

I think a combination of his personal issues and lack of ring awareness come out in his matches, but you really do wonder on the latter point because he keeps doing the same thing over and over which points to a deeper issue, this guy was trained by Les Thatcher and was exposed to guys like Steamboat and Harley, it doesn’t make any sense. His IQ may not have been poor originally but in recent times it had deteriorated significantly. I am all for more realism between the ropes, but his interpretation of that and analogy with MMA is poor. Lesnar, Bryan, Angle, Benoit, Bret and even Kyle O’Reilly are better examples of how to incorporate combat sports or free style wrestling in pro-wrestling environment.

For AEW, for the most part Mox was been a stand up guy from them apart from his need to satisfy his inner issues by indulging outlaw mud-shows or blading excessively like a mad man. But creatively, am afraid he hasn’t delivered for me in terms of the ceiling which is possible given his talents.

The amount of unnecessary bladejobs and so called hardcore stuff some people do it these days looks so desperate for attention. Most of the times, it doesn't even add anything to the storyline or the match itself.
I like Mox and think he was the first big acquisition after AEW's inception to getting a proper face of the promotion. But his unhinged self has been consuming his career. He wasn't dealt well enough in WWE enough and was always seen as the third spoke of The Shield but still Mox hasn't done anything to suggest he has the brain to complement his talents.

Plus his feud with Punk was so aberrant. Like getting that one squash match where Punk lost was so out of place, where Punk thought he got injured and lost only to win it 2 weeks later. Like even Rocky 3 didn't have such premise. Rocky lost to Clubber Lang in Rocky 3 cause he was found undercooked and one dimensional in style and only got better to beat Lang afterwards when he adopted his previous rival as his trainer whose brain and style he incorporated in his own.