The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[QalandarFan]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I have a question for you what do you prefer, Smackdown or Raw?

For me it's gotta be Smackdown, if not anything else just the 2 hours compared to 3. I'd much rather watch a show from 6-8 pm then 6-9 pm. It gets a bit too late at times the 2 hours feel much more exciting and action packed and don't leave you tired.

Plus as you know I am not a huge fan of Raw's current champ. I was watching one of his promos before SummerSlam and it was just embarrassing to watch let me see if I can find it. I can only imagine SD and it's title feud with Kofi/Orton is going much better than anything Raw is doing. Also KO/Shane was pretty great on SD as well.

 

[QalandarFan]

Here is the video of Seth Rollins horrible promo I'm talking about. Just watching this I was imagining think of what a guy like HBK, John Cena, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk or heck even Dolph Ziggler could of done with a promo like that. With weeks of getting beaten down by Brock and then getting hammered once again all you need is a half decent sympathetically promo where you convey some emotion to get over. But Seth comes up with this. The delivery was just poor and embarrassing.

Stick to being a heel Seth. Some guys like you and Randy just aren't meant to be faces.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] I have a question for you what do you prefer, Smackdown or Raw?

For me it's gotta be Smackdown, if not anything else just the 2 hours compared to 3. I'd much rather watch a show from 6-8 pm then 6-9 pm. It gets a bit too late at times the 2 hours feel much more exciting and action packed and don't leave you tired.

Plus as you know I am not a huge fan of Raw's current champ. I was watching one of his promos before SummerSlam and it was just embarrassing to watch let me see if I can find it. I can only imagine SD and it's title feud with Kofi/Orton is going much better than anything Raw is doing. Also KO/Shane was pretty great on SD as well.

Hey man long time, WWE for both RAW and SD has been fantastic before and after SummerSlam; so many awesome story lines to keep up with.

The stuff involving O.C , AJ Styles and Riochet has been beautiful ; excellent feud and have enjoyed the in-ring action, they don't give you too much and leave you wanting more in order to continue the series.

Goldberg had his redemption in a highly enjoyable encounter with Ziggler playing the role of an annoying heel beautifully.

The debut of the Field was spectacular and one of the greatest I've ever seen, Bray Wyatt is a truly special performer and this new persona I just hope is protected; from what I have read around the dirt sheets Vince is on board with that approach regarding keeping the character exclusive, hopefully he is pushed in the same way as Taker in 90s.

New Day vs Orton / Revival feud has been building up nicely and the womens division is hot with the return of Sasha Banks; Trish rolled back the years in a fantastic match with Charlotte and is likely to return again.

You have your opinion on Seth but from an in-ring POV it can't be denied this man is arguably the best in the world right now from this regard, he has truly been phenomenal in the ring and along with Lesnar stole the show at SummerSlam; it was a magical main-event, I also think Brock deserves the title of Mr.SummerSlam. Seth turned up the intensity to another level and Brock as you know has amazing awareness and psychology between the squared circle. Seth has largely turned up in this feud with Lesnar and Paul has played a key role when it comes to promos to. I don't think Seth is THAT terrible but I feel his persona lacks definition which is why at times this shows in the promo work, Austin sold him really well during an interview on RAW as a baby face who is extremely desperate to reach the top and extremely passionate about what he does, some edge would certainly help; turning heel isn't an option, I don't want to say it but after the scare with Reigns, the company realise he is the man to invest in also for the long term.

Going back to SD, I am thoroughly enjoying this angle involving who attacked Reigns, maybe it was Rikishi jokes aside it has been a lot of fun, Bryan/Rowan have been incredible as the delusional environmentalist hippies

The way they have built up Murphy has been refreshing, last 2 weeks he has been involved in amazing matches with top guys and with the KOTR looming he will have a lot of momentum behind him. Speaking of KOTR, I very much look forward to this and feel it is extremely prestigious; hoping whoever wins gets a massive push over a sustained period.

Also, the seeds which have been planted for a feud between Seth / Braun were great; loving everything they have done so far! this is very good work from creative recently honestly, am very impressed.

Sasha return marked an attack on Becky, she finally has a proper dance partner; Sasha is one of the greatest modern women wrestlers in my opinion, she put the division on the map with the landmark feud with Charlotte and boasts a very impressive resume, as a character she is tremendous and so gifted technically in the ring, I love the heel turn to; she thrives in this role as we saw in NXT.

What else, the KOTR qualifying matches have been great, Joe/Cesaro nearly killed each other and Cedric had a great showcase win over Zayn, Andrade looked great to vs Crews.

If there were any criticisms is that I'd like them to see more direction for the womens tag titlists and we need to end the feud with KO v Shane immediately because it has been horrid, also want to see KO refresh his image as it has grown stale.

Honestly, both RAW and SD have been enjoyable recently. Also, NXT moves the USA network.

 

[shaz619]

Here is the video of Seth Rollins horrible promo I'm talking about. Just watching this I was imagining think of what a guy like HBK, John Cena, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk or heck even Dolph Ziggler could of done with a promo like that. With weeks of getting beaten down by Brock and then getting hammered once again all you need is a half decent sympathetically promo where you convey some emotion to get over. But Seth comes up with this. The delivery was just poor and embarrassing.

Stick to being a heel Seth. Some guys like you and Randy just aren't meant to be faces.

Whoever booked that segment needs to be fired more then anything, it is probably the weakest moment of the feud but it doesn't take away from all the good work both did before that. First of all, after that beat down week before he shouldn't have been out there in the first place, hobbling one moment and sprinting the next it was just silly

 

[QalandarFan]

Hey man long time, WWE for both RAW and SD has been fantastic before and after SummerSlam; so many awesome story lines to keep up with.

The stuff involving O.C , AJ Styles and Riochet has been beautiful ; excellent feud and have enjoyed the in-ring action, they don't give you too much and leave you wanting more in order to continue the series.

Goldberg had his redemption in a highly enjoyable encounter with Ziggler playing the role of an annoying heel beautifully.

The debut of the Field was spectacular and one of the greatest I've ever seen, Bray Wyatt is a truly special performer and this new persona I just hope is protected; from what I have read around the dirt sheets Vince is on board with that approach regarding keeping the character exclusive, hopefully he is pushed in the same way as Taker in 90s.

New Day vs Orton / Revival feud has been building up nicely and the womens division is hot with the return of Sasha Banks; Trish rolled back the years in a fantastic match with Charlotte and is likely to return again.

You have your opinion on Seth but from an in-ring POV it can't be denied this man is arguably the best in the world right now from this regard, he has truly been phenomenal in the ring and along with Lesnar stole the show at SummerSlam; it was a magical main-event, I also think Brock deserves the title of Mr.SummerSlam. Seth turned up the intensity to another level and Brock as you know has amazing awareness and psychology between the squared circle. Seth has largely turned up in this feud with Lesnar and Paul has played a key role when it comes to promos to. I don't think Seth is THAT terrible but I feel his persona lacks definition which is why at times this shows in the promo work, Austin sold him really well during an interview on RAW as a baby face who is extremely desperate to reach the top and extremely passionate about what he does, some edge would certainly help; turning heel isn't an option, I don't want to say it but after the scare with Reigns, the company realise he is the man to invest in also for the long term.

Going back to SD, I am thoroughly enjoying this angle involving who attacked Reigns, maybe it was Rikishi jokes aside it has been a lot of fun, Bryan/Rowan have been incredible as the delusional environmentalist hippies

The way they have built up Murphy has been refreshing, last 2 weeks he has been involved in amazing matches with top guys and with the KOTR looming he will have a lot of momentum behind him. Speaking of KOTR, I very much look forward to this and feel it is extremely prestigious; hoping whoever wins gets a massive push over a sustained period.

Also, the seeds which have been planted for a feud between Seth / Braun were great; loving everything they have done so far! this is very good work from creative recently honestly, am very impressed.

Sasha return marked an attack on Becky, she finally has a proper dance partner; Sasha is one of the greatest modern women wrestlers in my opinion, she put the division on the map with the landmark feud with Charlotte and boasts a very impressive resume, as a character she is tremendous and so gifted technically in the ring, I love the heel turn to; she thrives in this role as we saw in NXT.

What else, the KOTR qualifying matches have been great, Joe/Cesaro nearly killed each other and Cedric had a great showcase win over Zayn, Andrade looked great to vs Crews.

If there were any criticisms is that I'd like them to see more direction for the womens tag titlists and we need to end the feud with KO v Shane immediately because it has been horrid, also want to see KO refresh his image as it has grown stale.

Honestly, both RAW and SD have been enjoyable recently. Also, NXT moves the USA network.

Yeah AJ and Ricochet have had a great feud so far, just a little upset I didn't get my ladder match to open up SummerSlam. Although I gotta say they delivered a pretty solid match and man the finish to that match was special.

I enjoyed Goldberg being on SS as well my only complain is it came at the exclusion of The Miz from the card. Not liking the way Miz has been booked since turning baby face. His first loss to Shane O at Mania kind of made sense to me but then losing at the next PPV was just unacceptable. Really thought Miz was going to have a WWE Champion run as a babyface. However, there's still time for that to change during the fall.

As for The Fiend he's been absloutley amazing. WWE haven't put a foot wrong in booking that character from what I've seen. May they continue the good work.

As for the Orton/Kofi feud I sat down and caught up on all of it including the matches and man it's been spectacular. It's probably my favorite feud in WWE right now, which is probably why I'm looking forward to SDL so much. I have to say I am kind of surprised at how much of the Orton killing Kofi's push 10 years ago Kofi has been allowed to mention. Of course almost everybody knew about it but man I didn't think Vince would of allowed this much of it to be mentioned.

Looking forward to the Becky/Sasha feud. I remember them absolutely tearing the house down in NXT which for a long time was probably Becky's best match. As for Sasha I'm surprised it took this long for her to turn heel on the main roster. However, better late than never should make for a great feud.

As for King of the Ring, yeah man absolutely looking forward to it, however my two favorites too win it up front KO, and McIntyre have both been eliminated lol. Kind of getting ****** off at how WWE's booking Drew he's universal championship material and can be the number 1 heel on the show, but this is the treatment he's getting. As for the King of the Ring now I believe the winner will be between Murphy and Joe now.

As for Buddy yeah what a push he's received absolute killed it out there with Roman and Bryan. As for the Roman angle. It was hilarious I was just expecting someone to come out and say "I did it.... for the Rock!" ) Lol hopefully last SD wasn't the end of the feud, and an actual superstar actually hit Roman.

 

[sweep_shot]

Everybody loved the Attitude Era I think more than 50% of the wrestling fans have stopped watching wrestling ever since the Attitude Era ended and WCW shut down. The popularity of wrestling now compared to in the late 90's and early 2000's is laughable. It's sad but it's true ever since the AA era ended fans stopped watching.

In my opinion, WWE died after John Cena got drafted to RAW in 2005. That was the beginning of the end.

That spinning belt was stupid and childish.

 

[QalandarFan]

In my opinion, WWE died after John Cena got drafted to RAW in 2005. That was the beginning of the end.

That spinning belt was stupid and childish.

Nah you have to admit John Cena was the biggest draw WWE has had in the past 15 years. Nobody came close to him in terms of popularity until Punk's big push in the 2010's. If it wasn't for Cena the rating would of dropped a looottt quicker. Even now without him WWE's struggling to draw more than 2.5 mil viewers to a Raw show. A lot of people hate on Cena but fact is he carried this company on it's back for the past 15 years during the PG Era whereas guys like Batista, Lesnar, Goldberg all left. It's not his fault WWE turned PG. But the popularity he gained during the PG Era as a babyface for his whole career it's crazy. There is not a single guy who could even come close to emulating what Cena did during the PG Era no one.

 

[sweep_shot]

Nah you have to admit John Cena was the biggest draw WWE has had in the past 15 years. Nobody came close to him in terms of popularity until Punk's big push in the 2010's. If it wasn't for Cena the rating would of dropped a looottt quicker. Even now without him WWE's struggling to draw more than 2.5 mil viewers to a Raw show. A lot of people hate on Cena but fact is he carried this company on it's back for the past 15 years during the PG Era whereas guys like Batista, Lesnar, Goldberg all left. It's not his fault WWE turned PG. But the popularity he gained during the PG Era as a babyface for his whole career it's crazy. There is not a single guy who could even come close to emulating what Cena did during the PG Era no one.

Before John Cena came to RAW in 2005, they had Batista as the world champion (who just broke away from Evolution). WWE should've continued with Batista for RAW.

Baby-face John Cena was the biggest tragedy in WWE history. He brought in viewers but most of his viewers were probably little kids and women.

I couldn't watch WWE after 2012. CM Punk somewhat saved WWE thankfully.

 

[aloo paratha]

In my opinion, WWE died after John Cena got drafted to RAW in 2005. That was the beginning of the end.

That spinning belt was stupid and childish.

Yep. And John Cena slowly started to become the annoying babyface he is today. Cena was so much better as a rapper...

 

[aloo paratha]

Can't believe people still watch WWE these days... It's become so pathetic that even watching a 10 minute promo for 2000 is more entertaining than an entire Wrestlemania show these days. The in ring talent is still very good today but there are no good characters anymore, no interesting storylines. PG era is where WWE died. Social media also hurt wrestling.

 

[shaz619]

Nah you have to admit John Cena was the biggest draw WWE has had in the past 15 years. Nobody came close to him in terms of popularity until Punk's big push in the 2010's. If it wasn't for Cena the rating would of dropped a looottt quicker. Even now without him WWE's struggling to draw more than 2.5 mil viewers to a Raw show. A lot of people hate on Cena but fact is he carried this company on it's back for the past 15 years during the PG Era whereas guys like Batista, Lesnar, Goldberg all left. It's not his fault WWE turned PG. But the popularity he gained during the PG Era as a babyface for his whole career it's crazy. There is not a single guy who could even come close to emulating what Cena did during the PG Era no one.

Biggest draw in the last 15 years ? aha come on man, I know you're a big mark for him but that is absurd, PG era began in 2007 after Benoit incident and 15 years before that came the likes of Austin, Rock, Hogan, NWO, Goldberg and Crow Sting. He is up there as one of best draw's in history but no where near as big as people think, ratings actually declined during Cena's peak but that was also due to how the business changed, he was most influential when it came to merch sales and ticket sales at house shows.

It is also a big myth no one could have come close to his drawing power in the PG era, what makes John stand out more then anything is his dedication and work ethic. Rey Mysterio's popularity was on par if not greater, Jeff peaked in the same way; however longevity and personal issues outside the ring didn't help either men; heck Bryan in 2013 had arguably the most over baby face peak. We also need to remember the company got behind John and refused to develop any other stars on a similar level, those who got popular like Punk and began to sell more merch and do similar numbers when it came to house shows their push was cut short due to personal/petty beef's e.g we saw what HHH did after the Summer of Punk.

In a fantasy realm lets assume Cena was fired in 2002 and the company had to turn PG in 2007, there are a number of wrestlers the WWE could have strapped the rocket behind and pushed them to the moon:

CM Punk - He was still managed by Heyman in OVW, if we ignore Triple H sabotaging his career and life it is quiet possible that Vince would have taken Paul's advise further regarding Punk's talents and built the company around him.
Edge - Naturally he thrived as a heel, but he had the attributes to adapt as a face and carry the company forward; lets just assume that unfortunate injury does lead to a premature retirement in 2011, by then he would still have given the company a solid 4 years.
Batista - In fact his best work as a character came towards the end of his career, there is no reason to suggest why he wouldn't thrive as a face; heck he killed in the MCU universe, just goes to show you with the right booking behind him Batista would have thrived in the same way as Reigns today at the very least when it comes to popularity.
Randy Orton - You must think am crazy for remotely suggesting Orton as an option in a face role, but is very much possible; his consistency speaks for itself and it is a possibility he would have been pushed in the same way as Cena, likely there would be a negative reception but Cena had to deal with hostile audiences for a long time until the only audience left were fat women and babies

 

[shaz619]

Before John Cena came to RAW in 2005, they had Batista as the world champion (who just broke away from Evolution). WWE should've continued with Batista for RAW.

Baby-face John Cena was the biggest tragedy in WWE history. He brought in viewers but most of his viewers were probably little kids and women.

I couldn't watch WWE after 2012. CM Punk somewhat saved WWE thankfully.

Batista wanted no part of the PG era towards the end, it was an insult to the business he had so much passion and respect for; the final nail in the coffin was him being fined like 300K for blading during a cage match with Jericho lol everyone involved was fined including the ref, Batista paid the fine for everyone including the producer which was Dean Malenko. Cena had been positioned as their guy long before Batista could have been considered for a similar role, had Cena not been there am sure he would have been considered.

PG era wasn't perfect at all, but the likes of Edge, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels and Punk made it compelling; the vets had some of their greatest runs from the POV of in-ring performances towards the end. One thing about Cena was while his persona was lame he had the individual skill and work ethic to improve and also deliver on the mic / in the ring.

The main person to blame for WWE turning PG is Chris Benoit.

 

[shaz619]

Yep. And John Cena slowly started to become the annoying babyface he is today. Cena was so much better as a rapper...

He barely wrestles anymore, works primarily in Hollywood now. He did return at Wrestlemania as the rapper in NYC, it made for an epic moment; that run was a lot of fun in the early 2000's, great character. I think it is unfortunate he was never able to show us how versatile he can be beyond that, literally in his entire career only portrayed two different personas; that is unheard off.

 

[andy0204]

Edge was underrated during 2000,he and Cena carried raw in 2006.

 

[shaz619]

) Kenny Ofaga drops from no.1 to no.8 in PWI's recent update, the worst drop among those who have reached no.1 in the last 5 years or so ) [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] - He is only supported by LGBT community, the weirdos that are cool with him booking a convicted sex offender on his shows and hippies, who would even go out of their way to watch him perform ? I am curious, not anyone you would specifically pay to ever see and he continues to get exposed in NA. The recent updates just shows you how over rated he is, had 1 good year in over a decade and that was largely due to working with some of the best in-ring performers in Japan who had creative control over their matches.

Moreover he spat on the business by raslin blow up dolls and little girls, it's just a shame; an absolute disgrace, no anyone who would cut it in any other era, you would get humiliated and shamed if you were seen with his top during AE era or territory era, maybe in golden era he coulda made it as a goofy gimmick like doink the clown, Ofaga is the reason the main stream call raslin fake and moved to combat sports instead.

 

[shaz619]

Ofaga's PWI record:

2019 8 1 -7
2018 1 5 +4
2017 5 23 +18
2016 23 54 +31
2015 54 183 +129
2014 183 125 -58
2013 125 185 +60
2012 185 85 -100
2011 85 142 +57
2010 142 318 +176
2009 318 422 +104
2008 422

Just 4 top 20 finishes ) that is beyond horrendous, that is the best reflection of his talents.

 

[Aman]

) Kenny Ofaga drops from no.1 to no.8 in PWI's recent update, the worst drop among those who have reached no.1 in the last 5 years or so ) [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] - He is only supported by LGBT community, the weirdos that are cool with him booking a convicted sex offender on his shows and hippies, who would even go out of their way to watch him perform ? I am curious, not anyone you would specifically pay to ever see and he continues to get exposed in NA. The recent updates just shows you how over rated he is, had 1 good year in over a decade and that was largely due to working with some of the best in-ring performers in Japan who had creative control over their matches.

Moreover he spat on the business by raslin blow up dolls and little girls, it's just a shame; an absolute disgrace, no anyone who would cut it in any other era, you would get humiliated and shamed if you were seen with his top during AE era or territory era, maybe in golden era he coulda made it as a goofy gimmick like doink the clown, Ofaga is the reason the main stream call raslin fake and moved to combat sports instead.

Kenny has wrestled a handful of matches this year and he has only won one match.

Kayfabe means a lot to these rankings and Kenny has a bad year in terms of W/L record.

 

[shaz619]

Kenny has wrestled a handful of matches this year and he has only won one match.

Kayfabe means a lot to these rankings and Kenny has a bad year in terms of W/L record.

This is why PWI is the holy grail, it actually evaluates you on the defining quality in this industry while all other publications are inferior, it is raslin's equivalent of ring magazine. Shear W/L is not the only factor, it is a reflection of your stature and level of performance but overall in-ring pedigree and character work are just as important, best way to gauge consistency; even with an inferior number of matches compared to raslers with superior W/L records got to the no.1 after a big fluke. PWI 500 also isn't for 2019 period itself, the cut off is around June / July and he has had plenty of matches in that period, he is basically a trash hipster; it is humiliating that you'd associate yourself with him in anyway, it's good that you've kept that energy in the virtual realm because you wouldn't get away with being his fan unlike the top 3 in the recent update.

 

[shaz619]

WWE on a massive role last 2-3 months RAW and SD have been so captivating creatively, excited for COC, NXT debut on USA and the KOTF finals (I actually predicted the finalists, think they couldn't be any better choice in terms of timing / elevation). What a fitting show piece at the Garden this week, both events delivered at MSG and what a magical moment between AJ Styles and Austin; the instant chemistry was insane and Styles held his own in terms of being a competitor worthy enough to share a platform with such a huge legend, the promo was incredible lmao and that sell of the stunner, best I have ever seen; The Rock use to over do it and make it look fake by using his arms to flip over; this is AJ Styles who does that tag of greatest in-ring performer of his gen justice time and time again, take a bow son it's been a pleasure, watch him while he is still around because he wont be long, all of a sudden I want to see Styles/Austin aha who would have thought I'd be saying that in 2019, but legends just legending I guess [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

 

[Aman]

WWE on a massive role last 2-3 months RAW and SD have been so captivating creatively, excited for COC, NXT debut on USA and the KOTF finals (I actually predicted the finalists, think they couldn't be any better choice in terms of timing / elevation). What a fitting show piece at the Garden this week, both events delivered at MSG and what a magical moment between AJ Styles and Austin; the instant chemistry was insane and Styles held his own in terms of being a competitor worthy enough to share a platform with such a huge legend, the promo was incredible lmao and that sell of the stunner, best I have ever seen; The Rock use to over do it and make it look fake by using his arms to flip over; this is AJ Styles who does that tag of greatest in-ring performer of his gen justice time and time again, take a bow son it's been a pleasure, watch him while he is still around because he wont be long, all of a sudden I want to see Styles/Austin aha who would have thought I'd be saying that in 2019, but legends just legending I guess [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION]

On a roll alright, Raw did an all time low rating this week )

 

[shaz619]

On a roll alright, Raw did an all time low rating this week )

Creative has been incredible , ratings don't move regardless as the product is consumed in so many different ways now you morton; when you look at the number of hours of raslin WWE put out there it truly is remarkable the millions who tune in, there's piracy etc and dim wits like you who never pay. It was decent regardless compared to the last 2 months just behind RAW reunion and post SummerSlam RAW, head to head with MTV as well. Ratings are not a reflection of creative or how powerful WWE are as a business / leader of the pack, the fact is shows have been increasingly more entertaining both RAW/SD and it has been a pleasure, everything else just feels like pure aids to me; AEW is so tacky and Japan too one dimensional, if I want an alternative shoot style NXT is my best bet also with elite production values.

And the company has been on a roll, TV has been so compelling; that one segment alone involving Styles and AJ was epic, you're deformed to look beyond that; not surprised when you worship Ofaga, a guy that supports sexual offenders and wrestles like a robot, he thinks a good gimmick is making the same facial expressions someone would while stuck on the toilet

 

[Aman]

Creative has been incredible , ratings don't move regardless as the product is consumed in so many different ways now you morton; when you look at the number of hours of raslin WWE put out there it truly is remarkable the millions who tune in, there's piracy etc and dim wits like you who never pay. It was decent regardless compared to the last 2 months just behind RAW reunion and post SummerSlam RAW, head to head with MTV as well. Ratings are not a reflection of creative or how powerful WWE are as a business / leader of the pack, the fact is shows have been increasingly more entertaining both RAW/SD and it has been a pleasure, everything else just feels like pure aids to me; AEW is so tacky and Japan too one dimensional, if I want an alternative shoot style NXT is my best bet also with elite production values.

And the company has been on a roll, TV has been so compelling; that one segment alone involving Styles and AJ was epic, you're deformed to look beyond that; not surprised when you worship Ofaga, a guy that supports sexual offenders and wrestles like a robot, he thinks a good gimmick is making the same facial expressions someone would while stuck on the toilet

A Raw with SCSA in MSG did a record low rating.

Tells you have incredible creative is when ratings are dropping 20% YOY.

 

[shaz619]

A Raw with SCSA in MSG did a record low rating.

Tells you have incredible creative is when ratings are dropping 20% YOY.

Ratings are not the measuring stick anymore you absolute mong and besides it was expeced due to NFL no one is actually surprised, WWE regardless is consumed more then any other raslin product out there and have never been worried. In the last few months their shows have been critically acclaimed universally. If SCSA return did a massive number then that would make creative incredible all of a sudden, what a fool you are; the overall quality is what determines if a show is good or bad, other lesser promotions rely more on the novelty factor.

 

[Aman]

Ratings are not the measuring stick anymore you absolute mong and besides it was expeced due to NFL no one is actually surprised, WWE regardless is consumed more then any other raslin product out there and have never been worried. In the last few months their shows have been critically acclaimed universally. If SCSA return did a massive number then that would make creative incredible all of a sudden, what a fool you are; the overall quality is what determines if a show is good or bad, other lesser promotions rely more on the novelty factor.

Not the yard stick... Literally moved the King of the Ring Finals because of the ratings and you forgetting the wildcard rule after the last ratings collapse?

Raw is going to be doing sub 2m during NFL season. You think that's good?

Ratings, attendance, merch sales, network subs - ALL ARE DOWN )

 

[Aman]

Emmy worthy **** right here )

 

[Aman]

GOATkada closing in on 20 5* matches, I think he'll finish career with 40.

Which is more than Miwasa and Kobashi.

GOATkada is only 30 and He already has more 5* matches than Shawn, AJ, Bryan, Undertaker, Austin, Bret Hart and Bryan combined.

 

[Aman]

Think GOATkada's average match rating is close to 4.5*

 

[shaz619]

Not the yard stick... Literally moved the King of the Ring Finals because of the ratings and you forgetting the wildcard rule after the last ratings collapse?

Raw is going to be doing sub 2m during NFL season. You think that's good?

Ratings, attendance, merch sales, network subs - ALL ARE DOWN )

They focus more on quality KOTR tournament has beem producing stellar matches, having it on RAW is to improve the programming, ratings have many factors now but WWE have been sitting compatibly no one has been able to move them; they have addressed creative cocerns slowly by improving the product which is the right thing to do. If it was the yardstick why have they not folded like WCW you idiot, how ignorant you are stop listening to sex offenders

 

[shaz619]

Emmy worthy **** right here )

That storyline has actually been pretty epic, similar to Rock/Rikishi storyline and has helped elevate Rowan's profile as well

 

[shaz619]

GOATkada closing in on 20 5* matches, I think he'll finish career with 40.

Which is more than Miwasa and Kobashi.

GOATkada is only 30 and He already has more 5* matches than Shawn, AJ, Bryan, Undertaker, Austin, Bret Hart and Bryan combined.

Think GOATkada's average match rating is close to 4.5*

The best gauge is consistency reflected in PWI 500, he only makes top 20 like 4 times that is shocking. Who on here would go out of their way to watch him wrestle seriously? He doesn't stand up to any of those names, you just like and relate to hippies and overlook what a questionable creep he is

 

[shaz619]

Apparently Kenny Omega is better then Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Bret Hart, Austin etc )

[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=77713]reddevil[/MENTION]

I doubt people even know who he is lmao and those who have watched him perform would laugh in your face, he is a voice for the LGBT community main reason you like him Aman but don't forget he supported sex offenders and wrestled a friggin blow up doll

 

[Suleiman]

Apparently Kenny Omega is better then Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Bret Hart, Austin etc )

[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=77713]reddevil[/MENTION]

I doubt people even know who he is lmao and those who have watched him perform would laugh in your face, he is a voice for the LGBT community main reason you like him Aman but don't forget he supported sex offenders and wrestled a friggin blow up doll

Btw dude I can’t believe I haven’t told you this already. But Carlito goes to the same gym as me for like 2 years now, it’s the weirdest thing man, like we say hi and hello but it’s surreal to think that I used to see this guy be treated like a jobber back in the day on TV and the smack down vs raw video games and now we’re gym buddies.

Now he’s gotten pretty buff, and actually is p down to earth and has charisma. I think WWE misused him. He was telling me the other day they gave him an offer in 2015 but it was a low ball offer so he declined.

 

[Red Devil]

Apparently Kenny Omega is better then Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Bret Hart, Austin etc )

[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=77713]reddevil[/MENTION]

I doubt people even know who he is lmao and those who have watched him perform would laugh in your face, he is a voice for the LGBT community main reason you like him Aman but don't forget he supported sex offenders and wrestled a friggin blow up doll

[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] thinks some stupid rating system developed by that fraud Meltzer is the be all and end all of professional wrestling. )

You can't really have an objective and worthwhile discussion with someone with such superficial knowledge of the business tbh.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] thinks some stupid rating system developed by that fraud Meltzer is the be all and end all of professional wrestling. )

You can't really have an objective and worthwhile discussion with someone with such superficial knowledge of the business tbh.

He is an idiot, even the observer would admit that; Meltzer's ratings are Meltzer's ratings and we all know he is best mates with Kenny, as far as the best match of the year is concerned they have an award for that and Meltzer is not the only guy who has input there, however the PWI have always been the holy grail; although many wrestling organisations promote their lead title as a World Heavyweight Championship, PWI has only recognised two or three top versions as valid World titles at any one time. With regard to the NWA World Heavyweight championship, PWI has generally recognised the lineage retrospectively traced by the NWA from its 1948 formation back to Georg Hackenschmidt in 1905, this is why their coveted PWI 500 are valued so much and their other categories to.

 

[shaz619]

Btw dude I can’t believe I haven’t told you this already. But Carlito goes to the same gym as me for like 2 years now, it’s the weirdest thing man, like we say hi and hello but it’s surreal to think that I used to see this guy be treated like a jobber back in the day on TV and the smack down vs raw video games and now we’re gym buddies.

Now he’s gotten pretty buff, and actually is p down to earth and has charisma. I think WWE misused him. He was telling me the other day they gave him an offer in 2015 but it was a low ball offer so he declined.

I remember you told me before, that is so cool dude. Carlito may not be happy with how his career went but I always held him in the highest regard and he did get a decent push at the start and won majority of championships apart from the world title, he is by far the greatest modern Puerto Ricon wrestler; he returned to WWE to induct his legendary farther Carlos Colon Snr into the Hall of Fame; made a light hearted joke about getting more time to do the speech then he did for some of his matches while with the company lol very gifted in the ring and and talented as a character to, I think that had he remained with the WWE he may well have won a world title eventually but I guess the poor booking was just too much, his career path was very similar to Kofi's with both starting out very hot then WWE sort of failing them and allowing them to get lost in the shuffle, difference between the two was that Kofi stayed and managed to find a rare breakthrough while Carlito preferred to work the independent circuit

 

[Aman]

That storyline has actually been pretty epic, similar to Rock/Rikishi storyline and has helped elevate Rowan's profile as well

This is one of the worst storylines of all time.

You know they actually replaced Roman's car with a non crashed car after the commercial break )

And if it is revealed to be Bryan, the guy would have gotten his *** beat by his henchmen to deflect suspicion )

 

[Aman]

[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] thinks some stupid rating system developed by that fraud Meltzer is the be all and end all of professional wrestling. )

You can't really have an objective and worthwhile discussion with someone with such superficial knowledge of the business tbh.

Meltzer's opinion is closer to what most think, follow most wrestling fan sites and the majority consider Okada the best wrestler in the world.

Even at MSG they were chanting for Okada when Seth called himself the best.

And yes, Okada is so far above those guys in the ring it isn't funny. His match catalog is ridiculous.

 

[Aman]

He is an idiot, even the observer would admit that; Meltzer's ratings are Meltzer's ratings and we all know he is best mates with Kenny, as far as the best match of the year is concerned they have an award for that and Meltzer is not the only guy who has input there, however the PWI have always been the holy grail; although many wrestling organisations promote their lead title as a World Heavyweight Championship, PWI has only recognised two or three top versions as valid World titles at any one time. With regard to the NWA World Heavyweight championship, PWI has generally recognised the lineage retrospectively traced by the NWA from its 1948 formation back to Georg Hackenschmidt in 1905, this is why their coveted PWI 500 are valued so much and their other categories to.

THis is hilarious.

When Kenny was #1 you were downplaying the PWI award's and when AJ won the Wrestling Observer awards you were banging on about it. You know the same awards HBK has never won.

Guess who's going to win the Wrestler of the decade award? It ain't AJ or Bryan, it's between GOATkada and GOAThashi. That will only further elevate his greatness.

Tokyo sports awards, WO observers, PWI awards. The dude is the GOAT.

 

[Aman]

Tokyo sports awards, WO observers, PWI awards. Universally considered the best in the world while wrestling in Japan for a smaller promotion. The dude is the GOAT.

 

[Aman]

Jim Ross says Kenny Omega vs. Tomohiro Ishii at G1 Special in Long Beach last year was the "best match he ever broadcasted".

Eat your heart out.

 

[Aman]

Then you WWE's so called best wrestlers ripping off Kenny's moves )

 

[Aman]

Kenny is the greatest North American wrestler already.

The GOAT battle is between Okada and Tanahashi, it's fitting the wrestler of the decade award will be decided between those two.

Faux-GOAT should be happy Okada is in Japan, the Rainmaker would take the title of WWE GOAT if he had any interest in taking that peasant title.

Going to be like a proud dad when Okada wins Wrestler of the Decade, it's the greatest honor that can be given to you in this business outside promotions.

 

[The Viper]

Get rid of the personal comments and please be civil in the future thanks.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Kenny is okay but it is worth pointing out he worked with some of the best in-ring performers which helps

But the reason his matches are as good as they are isn't because he works with the best in-ring performers. Neither Omega nor Okada have the coolest or most innovative moves Like Ricochet or Will Ospreay, or the most hard-hitting strong style wrestling like Katsuyori Shibata. The reason the matches were so good was the storytelling. They're so smartly laid out, you watch that and wonder why no one else can wrestle a match like that. They're telling stories no one had even thought of before.

 

[shaz619]

But the reason his matches are as good as they are isn't because he works with the best in-ring performers. Neither Omega nor Okada have the coolest or most innovative moves Like Ricochet or Will Ospreay, or the most hard-hitting strong style wrestling like Katsuyori Shibata. The reason the matches were so good was the storytelling. They're so smartly laid out, you watch that and wonder why no one else can wrestle a match like that. They're telling stories no one had even thought of before.

They don't travel or have a rigorous schedule and go for the home run once a month, hard-hitting strong style doesn't mean anything when you shoot with your moves; if you're not capable of getting over without hurting your opponent then you're not very good; am pretty sure Shibata suffered a traumatic brain injury, there's a difference between shooting with your strikes / excessive high spots and good in-ring psychology / story telling. Bret wasn't just called the excellence of execution because he was incredibly gifted technically but because he never hurt his opponent once and didn't need excessive high spots to tell a story in the ring, when I see Omega; it's just an endless bunch of moves, that's it; and aesthetically he is not pleasing to watch at all either, he doesn't have the natural ability and you're wrong to say that it doesn't help to work with someone more polished and smooth like Okada who helps conceal his own flaws which were recently exposed in North America. But this is a different topic, the initial point being argued was that this limited individual is the GOAT which is beyond absurd; you don't find toxic fans with such views in Boxing or MMA. As for telling stories which have never been told before I think that is very silly considering you claim to follow the bizz beyond the E as well, the sagas between Flair/Steamboat, Shawn/Bret, Austin/Bret, Angle/Shawn, Summer of Punk (ROH, that was glorious), Shawn/Jericho, Kobashi/Joe, Gurrero/Rey, Harley/Ric, Tankana/Awesome and Taker/Shawn are all vastly superior; another aspect you are overlooking is the ability to suspend disbelief, am afraid I have not seen that either, that first match they had it was great trust me; but the best gauge I use later on is if I would go out of my way to see it again, the answer is no. And greatness is determined via consistency and also when you're under the pump against a variety of match types, situations and opponents over a much bigger sample.

 

[shaz619]

Get rid of the personal comments and please be civil in the future thanks.

Mostly spam caused by [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] and then his fake account , we want to have an objective discussion he is not capable of [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Bret wasn't just called the excellence of execution because he was incredibly gifted technically but because he never hurt his opponent once and didn't need excessive high spots to tell a story in the ring, when I see Omega; it's just an endless bunch of moves, that's it; and aesthetically he is not pleasing to watch at all either, he doesn't have the natural ability and you're wrong to say that it doesn't help to work with someone more polished and smooth like Okada who helps conceal his own flaws which were recently exposed in North America.

I don't think it matters whether you use high spots or not to tell a story. I think what matters more is if the match has you emotionally invested and at the edge of your seat. Having said that, Omega's matches aren't complete spotfests. They begin as proper wrestling matches that start out slow and then build into a crescendo as they both look for the finish. Omega isn't the most technically gifted or acrobatic wrestler around, but he's definitely the smartest. He and Okada painstakingly laid out their series of matches, in a way that the story for the next match was built by the match before it.

Omega won the G1 Climax and faced Okada for the title at Wrestle Kingdom. He lost the match but never hit his finisher. Imagine having a long competitive match without ever hitting your finisher in the main event of the biggest show of the year in what is supposed to be the culmination of your feel-good story. They then wrestled 60 minutes at Dominion where Omega went the full distance again without hitting his finisher. Okada retained the title because of a time-limit draw, again a story not told enough in wrestling nowadays.

The best thing about his matches is his protection of finishers. You have so many wrestlers, even Undertaker and Shawn Michaels, that have been guilty of building drama in their matches by kicking out of finishers, thus cheapening the moves by them not actually finishing matches. Omega wrestled 2 long matches without ever hitting his finisher, setting up the question of what would happen if he actually hit his finisher? He then won the 3rd match, a non-title match in the G1 Climax, when he hit his finisher. That led to the 4th match which was for the title. The match itself made a lot of references to how the previous matches ended and them trying to avoid it this time, and again, they didn't have anyone kicking out of their finishers. One particular spot had Okada going for the Rainmaker about 40-50 minutes into the match, but Okada missed it, not because Omega reversed or ducked it, but because Omega simply collapsed to the floor due to exhaustion. That is genius storytelling that no one has done before.

I've watched all the matches that you mentioned with the exception of Harley/Ric and Tanaka/Awesome. I think they're looked back at fondly because of the historical significance that most of them have. I doubt you yourself have watched all those matches yourself though. There are matches that can only be appreciated by people who actually watched them as they happened. Flair-Steamboat happened at a time when they didn't lay out matches in detail, so you had long periods where you wondered what it was building to, and the finish was anti-climactic like a small package pin. If you can appreciate that, or if you can appreciate Kobashi-Joe, which was mostly a chop fest and again had a finish out of nowhere, there's no way you would not appreciate Omega-Okada and not come out appreciating Omega.

Come to think of it, I doubt you've even watched the Omega-Okada series of matches to even have an opinion of why you think it's not as good as the matches you mentioned. The idea that Omega is only a bunch of high spots is plain wrong and obvious to anyone who's actually watched his matches.

 

[shaz619]

I don't think it matters whether you use high spots or not to tell a story. I think what matters more is if the match has you emotionally invested and at the edge of your seat. Having said that, Omega's matches aren't complete spotfests. They begin as proper wrestling matches that start out slow and then build into a crescendo as they both look for the finish. Omega isn't the most technically gifted or acrobatic wrestler around, but he's definitely the smartest. He and Okada painstakingly laid out their series of matches, in a way that the story for the next match was built by the match before it.

Omega won the G1 Climax and faced Okada for the title at Wrestle Kingdom. He lost the match but never hit his finisher. Imagine having a long competitive match without ever hitting your finisher in the main event of the biggest show of the year in what is supposed to be the culmination of your feel-good story. They then wrestled 60 minutes at Dominion where Omega went the full distance again without hitting his finisher. Okada retained the title because of a time-limit draw, again a story not told enough in wrestling nowadays.

The best thing about his matches is his protection of finishers. You have so many wrestlers, even Undertaker and Shawn Michaels, that have been guilty of building drama in their matches by kicking out of finishers, thus cheapening the moves by them not actually finishing matches. Omega wrestled 2 long matches without ever hitting his finisher, setting up the question of what would happen if he actually hit his finisher? He then won the 3rd match, a non-title match in the G1 Climax, when he hit his finisher. That led to the 4th match which was for the title. The match itself made a lot of references to how the previous matches ended and them trying to avoid it this time, and again, they didn't have anyone kicking out of their finishers. One particular spot had Okada going for the Rainmaker about 40-50 minutes into the match, but Okada missed it, not because Omega reversed or ducked it, but because Omega simply collapsed to the floor due to exhaustion. That is genius storytelling that no one has done before.

I've watched all the matches that you mentioned with the exception of Harley/Ric and Tanaka/Awesome. I think they're looked back at fondly because of the historical significance that most of them have. I doubt you yourself have watched all those matches yourself though. There are matches that can only be appreciated by people who actually watched them as they happened. Flair-Steamboat happened at a time when they didn't lay out matches in detail, so you had long periods where you wondered what it was building to, and the finish was anti-climactic like a small package pin. If you can appreciate that, or if you can appreciate Kobashi-Joe, which was mostly a chop fest and again had a finish out of nowhere, there's no way you would not appreciate Omega-Okada and not come out appreciating Omega.

Come to think of it, I doubt you've even watched the Omega-Okada series of matches to even have an opinion of why you think it's not as good as the matches you mentioned. The idea that Omega is only a bunch of high spots is plain wrong and obvious to anyone who's actually watched his matches.

It does matter in abundance, the fact that you think it doesn't emphasises your very narrow perspective when it comes to a pro-wrestling match, what you are alluding to is a circus which insults kayfabe, we may live in modern times but there needs to be a degree of legitimacy when you work, over reliance on a high spot is a short cut when your in-ring awareness is poor, the reason wrestlers in that part of the world get injured so frequnetly even though they have a light schedule is because they don't sell, shoot with their strikes and take stupid risks, they may keep you on the edge of your seat but all I see is a bunch of moves with no real meaning and how can one even be invested in that, they rise from the dead every 2 seconds making it look so fake. He isn't technically gifted nor does he have a high in-ring IQ, his best talent are those high spots, not many will know but you probably will be aware he was in tag team called the golden lovers; his move-set has been ripped from Ibushi, it does take two to tango and I give credit in that regard but Okada played a massive role in those matches that can't be denied, Omega got his chances at the vacant foreign heel main-event spot only because AJ left, he has never been considered or positioned as the top guy even when he was with ROH in America. Gifted in-ring performers tend to have a knack for carrying limited performers.

Yeah imagine having a long competitive match and not having a pay off, if that happened outside the Tokyo Dome it wouldn't be acceptable would it. I did watch that match actually why would I mention it if I hadn't, that is meant to be one of the greatest ever in history according the IWC and all the hipsters so why wouldn't I have watched it out of curiosity regardless ? The idea was great not to hit the one winged angel, he tried numerous times and failed; but I have to be honest and say that half way through I fell asleep then had to watch the second half the next day, this just shows you that their pacing was horrific and just off, the layout of the match was overly scripted, you are giving Omega credit for being smart for allegedly painstakingly laying out the match, that in fact hurt them but I don't blame him for it either because he's not the type of talent that is going to help Okada call spots in the ring and play off the crowd, at least this way Okada could plan around knowing exactly what to expect before hand; that aside am not saying it was a bad match but I can't put it up there with the best I have ever seen purely because I wouldn't go out of my way to see it again, being excessively long even in the rematches hurt them because that premeditated planning gives the feeling they are forcing an epic down the throats of fans rather then using their ring awareness to control pace.

Finishers are predominately protected in those series, when HBK kicked out the Tombstone it was unheard of but it added to the moment and match itself, when it is done excessively it is bad like in Japan or Rock/Cena 2; in this modern era it actually was spearheaded by the independent style in America and mastered in Japan, then it fed into the WWE system as well to the point where people feel Cena/Styles at the RR was their best effort and even got attention from top stars in NJPW, another thing about modern NJPW is that they will hit their finisher like a million times before covering you, doesn't that cheapen the move ?

Genius story telling because he collapsed lol breaking news because Omega decided to do a bit of selling, story telling we have never been done before, you probably don't watch wrestling beyond the NJPW product in that case or have an appreciation for history. How many of their matches would you legit go out of your way to watch again and again ? I can't honestly say I would.

How would I even know about those matches had I not watched them, a very childish and ignorant point to make. You say that I would appreciate Omega/Okada if I appreciated Joe/Kobashi, but tell me this; Omega is not superior to either Joe or Kobashi, he is simply not great to watch, Joe/Kobashi both are aesthetically very gifted technically whether it is ground and pound, submission, brawling, power house and Joe even for a man his size could fly when he needed to, Omega has some nice flips and moonsaults over the two but you rather watch Lucha Libre instead, so I'd be more likely to revisit Joe/Kobashi and it was a dream match at the time for me as well. Back then they didn't lay out matches in great detail you are right and they didn't need to either for the most part unless they were introducing a new gimmick match.

As I had said earlier, you have gone off on a tangent when the point being conveyed earlier was that Kenny is the best ever and was being argued; as for the in-ring matches he has been involved in with Okada, yeah sure they were good; Vince and Shawn had an amazing confrontation as well at WM 22 as did AJ against Shane, I think that it does take two to tango and guys like Vince, Shawn and Omega deserves credit for being a dance partner / doing their bit but the matches speak highly of their opponents skill. Moreover you can't compare that style or series to the matches I listed which had to be built through segments and promos beforehand while the latter had the luxury of not having to worry about that aspect of their character work and thinking of ways to extend the feud through the action itself, in NA territory you ought to give the pre-match build as much emphasis as the in-ring action and aftermath

 

[Aman]

But the reason his matches are as good as they are isn't because he works with the best in-ring performers. Neither Omega nor Okada have the coolest or most innovative moves Like Ricochet or Will Ospreay, or the most hard-hitting strong style wrestling like Katsuyori Shibata. The reason the matches were so good was the storytelling. They're so smartly laid out, you watch that and wonder why no one else can wrestle a match like that. They're telling stories no one had even thought of before.

It's the emotion and build.

They build their matches up brilliantly and the finishing stretch is always amazing with the crowd on their feet and two wrestlers running on nothing but adrenaline and trying to put the other away.

 

[Aman]

Mostly spam caused by [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] and then his fake account , we want to have an objective discussion he is not capable of [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Shaz, how does it feel to know most of the world considers Okada to be the greatest of all time and Omega to be far far far better than Shawn?

 

[Aman]

[MENTION=138821]TNAmarkFromIndia[/MENTION] knows what he's talking about.

Tanahashi, Omega and Okada are the 3 best storytellers in the business, the 3 best I've ever seen.

They actually tell stories in the ring, something spot monkeys in the WWE have forgotten. All you get there is finisher spam or soulless big move, kick out matches. This is why the crowd is so dead for 99% of their matches, you can hear a pin drop in the arena until someone hits a big move. Such a dull atmosphere and we have Shaz pretending like these spot monkeys are in the same level as the GOATs of this business. Embarrassing and outtright delusional.

I'm glad the majority of the world can see it for what it is and hold the Holy Trinity of Pro Wrestling to the same standard I do.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Shaz, how does it feel to know most of the world considers Okada to be the greatest of all time and Omega to be far far far better than Shawn?

Seriously nobody knows about Okada. Who is he anyway?

 

[Aman]

It does matter in abundance, the fact that you think it doesn't emphasises your very narrow perspective when it comes to a pro-wrestling match, what you are alluding to is a circus which insults kayfabe, we may live in modern times but there needs to be a degree of legitimacy when you work, over reliance on a high spot is a short cut when your in-ring awareness is poor, the reason wrestlers in that part of the world get injured so frequnetly even though they have a light schedule is because they don't sell, shoot with their strikes and take stupid risks, they may keep you on the edge of your seat but all I see is a bunch of moves with no real meaning and how can one even be invested in that, they rise from the dead every 2 seconds making it look so fake. He isn't technically gifted nor does he have a high in-ring IQ, his best talent are those high spots, not many will know but you probably will be aware he was in tag team called the golden lovers; his move-set has been ripped from Ibushi, it does take two to tango and I give credit in that regard but Okada played a massive role in those matches that can't be denied, Omega got his chances at the vacant foreign heel main-event spot only because AJ left, he has never been considered or positioned as the top guy even when he was with ROH in America. Gifted in-ring performers tend to have a knack for carrying limited performers.

Yeah imagine having a long competitive match and not having a pay off, if that happened outside the Tokyo Dome it wouldn't be acceptable would it. I did watch that match actually why would I mention it if I hadn't, that is meant to be one of the greatest ever in history according the IWC and all the hipsters so why wouldn't I have watched it out of curiosity regardless ? The idea was great not to hit the one winged angel, he tried numerous times and failed; but I have to be honest and say that half way through I fell asleep then had to watch the second half the next day, this just shows you that their pacing was horrific and just off, the layout of the match was overly scripted, you are giving Omega credit for being smart for allegedly painstakingly laying out the match, that in fact hurt them but I don't blame him for it either because he's not the type of talent that is going to help Okada call spots in the ring and play off the crowd, at least this way Okada could plan around knowing exactly what to expect before hand; that aside am not saying it was a bad match but I can't put it up there with the best I have ever seen purely because I wouldn't go out of my way to see it again, being excessively long even in the rematches hurt them because that premeditated planning gives the feeling they are forcing an epic down the throats of fans rather then using their ring awareness to control pace.

Finishers are predominately protected in those series, when HBK kicked out the Tombstone it was unheard of but it added to the moment and match itself, when it is done excessively it is bad like in Japan or Rock/Cena 2; in this modern era it actually was spearheaded by the independent style in America and mastered in Japan, then it fed into the WWE system as well to the point where people feel Cena/Styles at the RR was their best effort and even got attention from top stars in NJPW, another thing about modern NJPW is that they will hit their finisher like a million times before covering you, doesn't that cheapen the move ?

Genius story telling because he collapsed lol breaking news because Omega decided to do a bit of selling, story telling we have never been done before, you probably don't watch wrestling beyond the NJPW product in that case or have an appreciation for history. How many of their matches would you legit go out of your way to watch again and again ? I can't honestly say I would.

How would I even know about those matches had I not watched them, a very childish and ignorant point to make. You say that I would appreciate Omega/Okada if I appreciated Joe/Kobashi, but tell me this; Omega is not superior to either Joe or Kobashi, he is simply not great to watch, Joe/Kobashi both are aesthetically very gifted technically whether it is ground and pound, submission, brawling, power house and Joe even for a man his size could fly when he needed to, Omega has some nice flips and moonsaults over the two but you rather watch Lucha Libre instead, so I'd be more likely to revisit Joe/Kobashi and it was a dream match at the time for me as well. Back then they didn't lay out matches in great detail you are right and they didn't need to either for the most part unless they were introducing a new gimmick match.

As I had said earlier, you have gone off on a tangent when the point being conveyed earlier was that Kenny is the best ever and was being argued; as for the in-ring matches he has been involved in with Okada, yeah sure they were good; Vince and Shawn had an amazing confrontation as well at WM 22 as did AJ against Shane, I think that it does take two to tango and guys like Vince, Shawn and Omega deserves credit for being a dance partner / doing their bit but the matches speak highly of their opponents skill. Moreover you can't compare that style or series to the matches I listed which had to be built through segments and promos beforehand while the latter had the luxury of not having to worry about that aspect of their character work and thinking of ways to extend the feud through the action itself, in NA territory you ought to give the pre-match build as much emphasis as the in-ring action and aftermath

I love AJ, but business actually picked up immensely in NJPW once he left and Kenny became the top Gaijin. His work there dwarfs AJs and moved business significantly.

 

[Aman]

Seriously nobody knows about Okada. Who is he anyway?

The guy whose name they were chanting for on Raw when Seth called himself the best in the world.

Watch his trilogy with Omega or his series with Tanahashi to see for yourself why he left Shawn in his dust in his mid 20s.

 

[shaz619]

Shaz, how does it feel to know most of the world considers Okada to be the greatest of all time and Omega to be far far far better than Shawn?

Who are most of the world you absolute mong you still have mental health issues from the mauling we gave NZ and you can make as many fake accounts you can but literally I have never heard anyone apart you spew that distorted narrative

 

[Aman]

Who are most of the world you absolute mong you still have mental health issues from the mauling we gave NZ and you can make as many fake accounts you can but literally I have never heard anyone apart you spew that distorted narrative

GOATkada with that Wrestler of the Decade award to cement his GOAT status

You still haven't commented on JR calling the first Kenny Omega match he's called the best match he's ever called.

At that point he had only called ONE Kenny Omega match and Shawn's entire career )

 

[shaz619]

I love AJ, but business actually picked up immensely in NJPW once he left and Kenny became the top Gaijin. His work there dwarfs AJs and moved business significantly.

You over rate whoever is outside the WWE and once they come in berate them, in your other account you have a pic of EC3, you use to be a big fan of his to

Whether or not business picked up that's not a reflection of who is superior out the two actually, AJ has conquered every territory he has ever featured in and has a vastly diverse and superior resume

 

[Aman]

You over rate whoever is outside the WWE and once they come in berate them, in your other account you have a pic of EC3, you use to be a big fan of his to

Whether or not business picked up that's not a reflection of who is superior out the two actually, AJ has conquered every territory he has ever featured in and has a vastly diverse and superior resume

Shawn never did anything in Japan and became a meme for low ratings and tanking business on top

He would never been able to do what the likes of GOATkada, GOAThashi and GOATmega are doing today.

Look at what happened to TNA and what is happening to WWE with AJ in the company, the WWE's ratings are hitting new lows and their business metrics which measure interest are all down.

GOATkada and GOAThashi sold out MSG on their names. GOATmega is the biggest draw in ROH history.

 

[shaz619]

GOATkada with that Wrestler of the Decade award.

You still have commented on JR calling the first Kenny Omega match he's called the best match he's ever called.

At that point he had only called ONE Kenny Omega match and Shawn's entire career )

There is no WOTD award firstly you big fool and anyone can make up something and hand it out like Dave, it doesn't mean anything. Omega relies on people like J.R and Dave trying to hype him as much as they can so the world is convinced he is good, but when you actually watch him he doesn't deliver unless working with someone like Okada

 

[shaz619]

Shawn never did anything in Japan and became a meme for low ratings and tanking business on top

He would never been able to do what the likes of GOATkada, GOAThashi and GOATmega are doing today.

The golden gen saved the company and kept it afloat before the product ethos changed actually and Japan is a limited territory, every USA wrestler much inferior to Shawn that has ever been there conquered it. It's very easy, Jericho past his prime carried Omega to the best match of his career in Tokyo and bought in record numbers, the toughest territory in the world has always been NA and defines your legacy

 

[Aman]

There is no WOTD award firstly you big fool and anyone can make up something and hand it out like Dave, it doesn't mean anything. Omega relies on people like J.R and Dave trying to hype him as much as they can so the world is convinced he is good, but when you actually watch him he doesn't deliver unless working with someone like Okada

It's hilarious how you value these guys opinions until they don't fit your narrative.

Frankly it's hilarious the first GOATmega match JR called, which wouldn't even make his top 40 matches is considered to JR to be the best match he's ever called )

There is a wrestler of the decade award, it's based on performance in the WOTY award. Based on that it's between Okada and Tanahashi.

 

[shaz619]

It's hilarious how you value these guys opinions until they don't fit your narrative.

Frankly it's hilarious the first GOATmega match JR called, which wouldn't even make his top 40 matches is considered to JR to be the best match he's ever called )

What is there to value, I have my opinion and predominately no one considers Omega to be on the level of HBK )

 

[shaz619]

This is the greatest of all time apparently ) - LGBT community and all Kiwis still suffering from mauling England handed them

 

[shaz619]

This is the greatest of all time apparently ) - LGBT community and all Kiwis still suffering from mauling England handed them

Wow look at that no wonder people call raslin fake )

 

[Aman]

The match JR called the best he's ever called was with Ishii )

Can only imagine if he called the GOATkada-GOATmega matches live.

 

[Aman]

What is there to value, I have my opinion and predominately no one considers Omega to be on the level of HBK )

They don't, everyone considers him far better

 

[Aman]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In his dreams he coutdn't touch modern day Tanahashi. Ospreay is the most like him and he's twice the athlete and five times the nightly performer and Ospreay isn't even the best guy today. <a href="https://t.co/tXkp8Ex1Bl">https://t.co/tXkp8Ex1Bl</a></p>— Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1058534299459215360?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Dave with the facts.

 

[shaz619]

TNAmarkFromIndia
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Aman
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Sorry lads

 

[shaz619]

This is the greatest of all time apparently ) - LGBT community and all Kiwis still suffering from mauling England handed them

This cant stop laughing at this )

Shocking to say the least, imagine showing this to hardcore combat sports fans ) [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] the folk who grew up idolising HBK, Austin and Flair; real men that were legit, now we come to this apparently )

 

[Aman]

This cant stop laughing at this )

Shocking to say the least, imagine showing this to hardcore combat sports fans ) [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] the folk who grew up idolising HBK, Austin and Flair; real men that were legit, now we come to this apparently )

AJ Styles, the Pre Show stealer )

Should have left for AEW when he had the chance )

Pre show )

Could you imagine the holy trinity ever being on a pre show for a throwaway PPV )

He's finished.

 

[Aman]

AJ should have left for AEW when he had the chance.

It wont surprise me to see him on the pre show for WM. This has been quite some fall for him.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

It does matter in abundance, the fact that you think it doesn't emphasises your very narrow perspective when it comes to a pro-wrestling match, what you are alluding to is a circus which insults kayfabe, we may live in modern times but there needs to be a degree of legitimacy when you work, over reliance on a high spot is a short cut when your in-ring awareness is poor, the reason wrestlers in that part of the world get injured so frequnetly even though they have a light schedule is because they don't sell, shoot with their strikes and take stupid risks, they may keep you on the edge of your seat but all I see is a bunch of moves with no real meaning and how can one even be invested in that, they rise from the dead every 2 seconds making it look so fake.

Again with the "bunch of moves with no meaning" comment. Is there a specific moment or match that made you think that the moves had no meaning? Your argument seems more about indy wrestling rather than Omega's matches in particular, because Omega doesn't "rise from the dead every 2 seconds".

As far as kayfabe, it's silly to say that spot-filled matches insults kayfabe but Flair dropping to his knees begging for mercy when Sting no-sells his chops and hulks up, or Guerrero vs Mysterio '96 chain of lucha moves on each other which was like two trapeze artists performing an exhibition in co-operation with each other is believable. It's all part of the entertainment.

Omega got his chances at the vacant foreign heel main-event spot only because AJ left, he has never been considered or positioned as the top guy even when he was with ROH in America.

Omega wasn't positioned as the top guy in ROH because he wasn't around for long enough to be positioned as one. He only came in for a few dates a year and mostly wrestled in Japan, first in DDT and then in New Japan.

Yeah imagine having a long competitive match and not having a pay off, if that happened outside the Tokyo Dome it wouldn't be acceptable would it.

Saying the match didn't have a pay off is like saying Rock vs Cena 1 didn't have a payoff because the guy who was still active lost and the guy who came in for a handful of dates won. It was part of a much longer story arc, one that I already explained and one that made a lot of money for New Japan, more than even during the Okada-Tanahashi feud.

The idea was great not to hit the one winged angel, he tried numerous times and failed; but I have to be honest and say that half way through I fell asleep then had to watch the second half the next day, this just shows you that their pacing was horrific and just off

I understand that, but then you say you would watch Flair/Steamboat and Bret/Shawn again which were hour-long matches but you wouldn't watch Okada-Omega matches though the pacing even in those matches was slow. Wrestlers have to pace themselves carefully in long matches lest they're out of gas for the finishing sequence. What specifically about those matches' pacing did you like?

the layout of the match was overly scripted, you are giving Omega credit for being smart for allegedly painstakingly laying out the match, that in fact hurt them but I don't blame him for it either because he's not the type of talent that is going to help Okada call spots in the ring and play off the crowd, at least this way Okada could plan around knowing exactly what to expect before hand; that aside am not saying it was a bad match but I can't put it up there with the best I have ever seen purely because I wouldn't go out of my way to see it again, being excessively long even in the rematches hurt them because that premeditated planning gives the feeling they are forcing an epic down the throats of fans rather then using their ring awareness to control pace.

I'd say the first half of the match wasn't planned out in detail. Only the finishing sequences were. Even then, you said matches like Taker/Shawn were vastly superior, yet all 3 matches were also "overly scripted" if not more so. I think Omega-Okada certainly might have felt forced in that you knew they were going to have long matches for the sake of having an epic match, but then Shawn/Taker also felt forced in that you knew they were going to have multiple finisher kickouts and exaggerated "dramatic" moments to force an epic match. I don't understand how you can criticise one and not the other.

Finishers are predominately protected in those series, when HBK kicked out the Tombstone it was unheard of but it added to the moment and match itself

Shawn kicked out of the Tombstone in two of his Mania matches (something which became a regular thing in all Taker WrestleMania matches from then on). Taker kicked out of the Sweet Chin Music multiple times.

another thing about modern NJPW is that they will hit their finisher like a million times before covering you, doesn't that cheapen the move ?

In some cases it feels like it does, like Tanahashi hitting the High Fly Flow twice before pinning his opponent. In other cases, it puts out the finishing statement that the opponent is done and the victory is decisive. Kind of like if you needed 30 runs in the last over with 3 wickets in hand and the opposition bowled you out before the last ball. You knew you weren't going to win anyway but losing the remaining 3 wickets made it that much more convincing.

Genius story telling because he collapsed lol breaking news because Omega decided to do a bit of selling, story telling we have never been done before, you probably don't watch wrestling beyond the NJPW product in that case or have an appreciation for history. How many of their matches would you legit go out of your way to watch again and again ?

All of them. I actually don't watch a lot of NJPW. I only check out the big matches. Omega-Okada truly was some of the best in-ring storytelling ever seen, and that's having seen a lot of the great matches from the past.

Again you're either hating on the spot for the sake of it or you don't understand the context because you're reading it in isolation, but you need to actually watch the match to truly appreciate it. And not just one match, all 4 matches in the series in succession. The time you spend arguing with Aman would be better spent actually watching the matches. Your trolling of Omega because he wore a Jasmine outfit is kind of silly.

You say that I would appreciate Omega/Okada if I appreciated Joe/Kobashi, but tell me this; Omega is not superior to either Joe or Kobashi, he is simply not great to watch, Joe/Kobashi both are aesthetically very gifted technically whether it is ground and pound, submission, brawling, power house and Joe even for a man his size could fly when he needed to, Omega has some nice flips and moonsaults over the two but you rather watch Lucha Libre instead, so I'd be more likely to revisit Joe/Kobashi and it was a dream match at the time for me as well.

Did you like Joe/Kobashi because it was a dream match and both are technically gifted or did you enjoy it because the match was actually good? What about the match did you enjoy in particular?

I do agree that Omega isn't the most technically gifted wrestler. But he makes up for it with some of the most innovative in-ring storytelling in the business. He's thought outside the box to tell stories not been seen before, and that's so difficult in 2019 when it seems like everything that can be done has already been done in pro-wrestling and you're just finding new ways to tell an old story.

Moreover you can't compare that style or series to the matches I listed which had to be built through segments and promos beforehand while the latter had the luxury of not having to worry about that aspect of their character work and thinking of ways to extend the feud through the action itself, in NA territory you ought to give the pre-match build as much emphasis as the in-ring action and aftermath

That actually makes it harder to get people used to the American style of wrestling to get invested into the matches when you haven't had elaborate storylines and promo segments to promote the matches. Not sure why you think they deserve less credit and not more. Do you think you would be more interested in the Taker/Shawn or Shawn/Jericho matches if they didn't have the promos/segments leading up to it?

 

[shaz619]

TNAmarkFromIndia
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Aman
T20I Captain

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Sorry lads

Don't waste your time and beg it [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] [MENTION=138821]TNAmarkFromIndia[/MENTION] , I put both of you on ignore so can't see your posts lmao enjoy this fake shtick , I rather debate Boxing fans then creeps who drool over princess jasmine, no wonder the industry is in the sh!ts and gets laughed at from the outside

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Pro Wrestling is dying because of the midgets coming in & doing their 360 flipflops without any sense of credibility. Wrestling need bigger guys, guys who'll actually look believable in what they'll potray.
If you guys come up with this is **, size dosent matter bla bla
Ok then imagine a skinny geeky looking guy doing a film like Riddick. That would bomb exactly like todays wrestling

 

[shaz619]

Pro Wrestling is dying because of the midgets coming in & doing their 360 flipflops without any sense of credibility. Wrestling need bigger guys, guys who'll actually look believable in what they'll potray.
If you guys come up with this is **, size dosent matter bla bla
Ok then imagine a skinny geeky looking guy doing a film like Riddick. That would bomb exactly like todays wrestling

The guy dressed as princess jasmine is the new best ever apparently, this is what these people are justifying, I doubt it is trolling they are dead serious LOL what a shambles, only children watch this now, dudes in Japan just doing a bunch of moves without really getting you invested or reason to follow their in-ring work, feuds or character development, and yes you are right it is made to look fake beyond comprehension

 

[shaz619]

Pro Wrestling is dying because of the midgets coming in & doing their 360 flipflops without any sense of credibility. Wrestling need bigger guys, guys who'll actually look believable in what they'll potray.
If you guys come up with this is **, size dosent matter bla bla
Ok then imagine a skinny geeky looking guy doing a film like Riddick. That would bomb exactly like todays wrestling

Here's the hilarious thing, they now force big guys to do flips to in order to meet demands of the new fan which loves this fake rubbish, gone are the days where your size and strength made a big difference, the current era is similar to a video game when it comes to the in-ring work and no one really cares as much about promos and unique characters, just do a bit of flipidy do and wait for uncle dave to shove it down our throats as an epic to get the match hype

 

[Aman]

) TNAfanfromIndia buried Shaz 16 foot under.

He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, it doesn't matter because Kenny, Okada and Tanahashi are influencing the next generation and he'll see the next crop calling them the GOATs and the ones who inspired them.

They'll viewed as the greatest as his favorites wastes away into irrelevance, Shawn's best work wouldn't crack eithers top 30. That's not hating, that's a fact.

Wrestling has evolved greatly passed Shawn and Bret's time.

 

[Aman]

Here's the hilarious thing, they now force big guys to do flips to in order to meet demands of the new fan which loves this fake rubbish, gone are the days where your size and strength made a big difference, the current era is similar to a video game when it comes to the in-ring work and no one really cares as much about promos and unique characters, just do a bit of flipidy do and wait for uncle dave to shove it down our throats as an epic to get the match hype

Did you see the pre show stealer's 2* match yet

 

[Red Devil]

Again with the "bunch of moves with no meaning" comment. Is there a specific moment or match that made you think that the moves had no meaning? Your argument seems more about indy wrestling rather than Omega's matches in particular, because Omega doesn't "rise from the dead every 2 seconds".

Man forget everything else, how can anyone like that hot garbage that is TNA )

Next thing you know, you guys will claim Shark Boy was a bigger household name than Stone Cold.