The Wrestling Discussion Thread

Man forget everything else, how can anyone like that hot garbage that is TNA :)))

Next thing you know, you guys will claim Shark Boy was a bigger household name than Stone Cold. :yk
Actually watch NJPW and try pretend the WWE or it's faux GOATs come close.
 
WON’s Wrestler of the Decade standings (2010-2019) at this point in time.
The post asking about who will win WON Wrestler of the Decade got me thinking about how it is calculated and this is how:

Dave Meltzer calculates the Decade awards by going through the newsletter's annual awards in a number of different categories over the last ten years, awarding ten points for first place down to one point for tenth place, to generate lists based on consistent performance.

These are the top 20 wrestlers of the decade so far according to the WON Formula.

1. Hiroshi Tanahashi - 55
2. Kazuchika Okada - 51
3. John Cena - 41
4. AJ Styles - 36
5. Shinsuke Nakamura - 26
6. CM Punk - 24
7. Daniel Bryan - 20
8. Kenny Omega and Tetsuya Naito - 16
10. Kento Miyahara - 12
11. Brock Lesnar and Rush - 10
13. Takashi Suguira - 9
14. Masato Yoshino - 8
15. Prince Devitt, Chris Jericho, and Masaaki Mochizuki - 7
18. Seth Rollins, Randy Orton, and Davey Richards - 6
 
Man forget everything else, how can anyone like that hot garbage that is TNA :)))

Next thing you know, you guys will claim Shark Boy was a bigger household name than Stone Cold. :yk

Don't forget Curry Man :))) I will take TNA mark out of my ignore list I don't think he is Aman, too sensible and tries to have a reasonable debate like a civil human being ignoring his questionable user name :)))
 
Again with the "bunch of moves with no meaning" comment. Is there a specific moment or match that made you think that the moves had no meaning? Your argument seems more about indy wrestling rather than Omega's matches in particular, because Omega doesn't "rise from the dead every 2 seconds".

As far as kayfabe, it's silly to say that spot-filled matches insults kayfabe but Flair dropping to his knees begging for mercy when Sting no-sells his chops and hulks up, or Guerrero vs Mysterio '96 chain of lucha moves on each other which was like two trapeze artists performing an exhibition in co-operation with each other is believable. It's all part of the entertainment.


Omega wasn't positioned as the top guy in ROH because he wasn't around for long enough to be positioned as one. He only came in for a few dates a year and mostly wrestled in Japan, first in DDT and then in New Japan.

Saying the match didn't have a pay off is like saying Rock vs Cena 1 didn't have a payoff because the guy who was still active lost and the guy who came in for a handful of dates won. It was part of a much longer story arc, one that I already explained and one that made a lot of money for New Japan, more than even during the Okada-Tanahashi feud.


I understand that, but then you say you would watch Flair/Steamboat and Bret/Shawn again which were hour-long matches but you wouldn't watch Okada-Omega matches though the pacing even in those matches was slow. Wrestlers have to pace themselves carefully in long matches lest they're out of gas for the finishing sequence. What specifically about those matches' pacing did you like?


I'd say the first half of the match wasn't planned out in detail. Only the finishing sequences were. Even then, you said matches like Taker/Shawn were vastly superior, yet all 3 matches were also "overly scripted" if not more so. I think Omega-Okada certainly might have felt forced in that you knew they were going to have long matches for the sake of having an epic match, but then Shawn/Taker also felt forced in that you knew they were going to have multiple finisher kickouts and exaggerated "dramatic" moments to force an epic match. I don't understand how you can criticise one and not the other.


Shawn kicked out of the Tombstone in two of his Mania matches (something which became a regular thing in all Taker WrestleMania matches from then on). Taker kicked out of the Sweet Chin Music multiple times.


In some cases it feels like it does, like Tanahashi hitting the High Fly Flow twice before pinning his opponent. In other cases, it puts out the finishing statement that the opponent is done and the victory is decisive. Kind of like if you needed 30 runs in the last over with 3 wickets in hand and the opposition bowled you out before the last ball. You knew you weren't going to win anyway but losing the remaining 3 wickets made it that much more convincing.


All of them. I actually don't watch a lot of NJPW. I only check out the big matches. Omega-Okada truly was some of the best in-ring storytelling ever seen, and that's having seen a lot of the great matches from the past.

Again you're either hating on the spot for the sake of it or you don't understand the context because you're reading it in isolation, but you need to actually watch the match to truly appreciate it. And not just one match, all 4 matches in the series in succession. The time you spend arguing with Aman would be better spent actually watching the matches. Your trolling of Omega because he wore a Jasmine outfit is kind of silly.


Did you like Joe/Kobashi because it was a dream match and both are technically gifted or did you enjoy it because the match was actually good? What about the match did you enjoy in particular?

I do agree that Omega isn't the most technically gifted wrestler. But he makes up for it with some of the most innovative in-ring storytelling in the business. He's thought outside the box to tell stories not been seen before, and that's so difficult in 2019 when it seems like everything that can be done has already been done in pro-wrestling and you're just finding new ways to tell an old story.


That actually makes it harder to get people used to the American style of wrestling to get invested into the matches when you haven't had elaborate storylines and promo segments to promote the matches. Not sure why you think they deserve less credit and not more. Do you think you would be more interested in the Taker/Shawn or Shawn/Jericho matches if they didn't have the promos/segments leading up to it?

I will respond to this effort, currently employed btw :yk in the mean time explain why you believe Omega is the best ever seeing you shifted the goal posts
 
OmegaJasmine.png


This is the greatest of all time apparently :))) - LGBT community and all Kiwis still suffering from mauling England handed them

The best ever [MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION] :)))
 
Don't forget Curry Man :))) I will take TNA mark out of my ignore list I don't think he is Aman, too sensible and tries to have a reasonable debate like a civil human being ignoring his questionable user name :)))

Dude's literally mocking The Undertaker and Ric Flair while being a TNA mark. I've seen it all. :)))
 
Again with the "bunch of moves with no meaning" comment. Is there a specific moment or match that made you think that the moves had no meaning? Your argument seems more about indy wrestling rather than Omega's matches in particular, because Omega doesn't "rise from the dead every 2 seconds".

As far as kayfabe, it's silly to say that spot-filled matches insults kayfabe but Flair dropping to his knees begging for mercy when Sting no-sells his chops and hulks up, or Guerrero vs Mysterio '96 chain of lucha moves on each other which was like two trapeze artists performing an exhibition in co-operation with each other is believable. It's all part of the entertainment.


Omega wasn't positioned as the top guy in ROH because he wasn't around for long enough to be positioned as one. He only came in for a few dates a year and mostly wrestled in Japan, first in DDT and then in New Japan.

Saying the match didn't have a pay off is like saying Rock vs Cena 1 didn't have a payoff because the guy who was still active lost and the guy who came in for a handful of dates won. It was part of a much longer story arc, one that I already explained and one that made a lot of money for New Japan, more than even during the Okada-Tanahashi feud.


I understand that, but then you say you would watch Flair/Steamboat and Bret/Shawn again which were hour-long matches but you wouldn't watch Okada-Omega matches though the pacing even in those matches was slow. Wrestlers have to pace themselves carefully in long matches lest they're out of gas for the finishing sequence. What specifically about those matches' pacing did you like?


I'd say the first half of the match wasn't planned out in detail. Only the finishing sequences were. Even then, you said matches like Taker/Shawn were vastly superior, yet all 3 matches were also "overly scripted" if not more so. I think Omega-Okada certainly might have felt forced in that you knew they were going to have long matches for the sake of having an epic match, but then Shawn/Taker also felt forced in that you knew they were going to have multiple finisher kickouts and exaggerated "dramatic" moments to force an epic match. I don't understand how you can criticise one and not the other.


Shawn kicked out of the Tombstone in two of his Mania matches (something which became a regular thing in all Taker WrestleMania matches from then on). Taker kicked out of the Sweet Chin Music multiple times.


In some cases it feels like it does, like Tanahashi hitting the High Fly Flow twice before pinning his opponent. In other cases, it puts out the finishing statement that the opponent is done and the victory is decisive. Kind of like if you needed 30 runs in the last over with 3 wickets in hand and the opposition bowled you out before the last ball. You knew you weren't going to win anyway but losing the remaining 3 wickets made it that much more convincing.


All of them. I actually don't watch a lot of NJPW. I only check out the big matches. Omega-Okada truly was some of the best in-ring storytelling ever seen, and that's having seen a lot of the great matches from the past.

Again you're either hating on the spot for the sake of it or you don't understand the context because you're reading it in isolation, but you need to actually watch the match to truly appreciate it. And not just one match, all 4 matches in the series in succession. The time you spend arguing with Aman would be better spent actually watching the matches. Your trolling of Omega because he wore a Jasmine outfit is kind of silly.


Did you like Joe/Kobashi because it was a dream match and both are technically gifted or did you enjoy it because the match was actually good? What about the match did you enjoy in particular?

I do agree that Omega isn't the most technically gifted wrestler. But he makes up for it with some of the most innovative in-ring storytelling in the business. He's thought outside the box to tell stories not been seen before, and that's so difficult in 2019 when it seems like everything that can be done has already been done in pro-wrestling and you're just finding new ways to tell an old story.


That actually makes it harder to get people used to the American style of wrestling to get invested into the matches when you haven't had elaborate storylines and promo segments to promote the matches. Not sure why you think they deserve less credit and not more. Do you think you would be more interested in the Taker/Shawn or Shawn/Jericho matches if they didn't have the promos/segments leading up to it?

You are trying to shove a match down my throat as the greatest ever and Omega as the best ever but am afraid I don't agree with that at all, Okada / Kenny was a nice little match but I simply do not agree with the narrative that it is the best ever or Dave's superficial ratings. Omega took devastating move after devastating move yet the match continued and in fact he has done this consistently in Japan which diminishes the element of selling which handicaps the ability to tell a story, you have a problem with Taker/HBK at WM25 but up until that point very few kicked out of the Tombstone so it was a huge deal, in that same match the rainmaker didn't end proceedings when it was hit initially.

Are you seriously comparing Ric playing possum in a heavyweight title fight to this disgrace:

he-had-a-wrestling-feud-with-a-blow-up-doll-photo-u1


While you are at it may as well explain why Shark Boy and Curry-Man are the GOAT, this is the shtick which has turned people away from the industry in general.

Omega was there for around 2 year in ROH, when he realised he wasn't going to cut it he transitioned to Japan and began wrestling more frequently over there around 2010, in both promotions he was never positioned as the top guy; a vacant spot was open for him due to Styles and he was the next somewhat decent white option available to play the antagonist to their top guys.

You pointed out that match didn't have a pay off after being so competitive, my point is that had such a view been entertained in NA hipster smarks who follow TNA and NJPW wouldn't be so accepting to that notion.

The Bret/Shawn match at WM12 was a gimmick iron-man encounter and Flair / Steamboat was a blood feud, all the talents involved had very well defined personas and the all round technical ability to make a lengthy bout compelling; each rasler had defined roles and a feud which had been built through promo work as well, I did watch Omega / Okada ; I just wouldn't watch it again, their personas don't interest me, I can't get invested in the stuff they do; they take time to build heat like way too long, then there are multiple finishing stretches which show you that modern wrestling is more fake then ever, it doesn't feel like a fight more like a circus, way too fake for me.

Omega as you said meticulously planned what he intended to do taking away any organic element, he was well set on what he wanted to do and hurt the matches flow. So you have an issue with wrestlers kicking out of finishers even when it is rarely done but have no issue Jap wrestlers hitting devastating move after devastating move which don't end the match and then hitting millions of finishers before getting the W.

I wouldn't go back to watch that match again, I struggle to see how anyone else honestly would; they'd be lying to me, highly doubt they would go out of their way to see it again and again. I think it is beyond absurd to suggest Kenny is an innovative story teller, precisely due to not hitting his finisher in an overly hyped match lmao

That is what is easier for Japan market, all the audience looks for is in-ring work which revolves around high spots; they don't really care about anything else; you don't need to build a feud, work on promo extensively or character work. The talent have a very light schedule and don't travel, then for the big events they get the license to go all out without having to worry about house shows. You just go out there and have a match like it's a dark main event, so that certainly is a big advantage for the performers over there. I would enjoy watching those performers without a build because of how gifted they are and their personas are also well defined, Kenny simply isn't on that level nor is his character strong enough to suspend your disbelief; I also think it is horrific how he exposed the business, not sure if he was looking for cheap heat but that wasn't defendable at all and disgusting; his best attribute is athleticism, and in the modern era hipsters eat that up, that isn't 6 star quality, just a bunch of moves really.
 
Dude's literally mocking The Undertaker and Ric Flair while being a TNA mark. I've seen it all. :)))

:))) It is pathetic really, because Shark Boy is not employed by WWE he by default is superior to Austin, Flair and Taker, are you surprised such fellas are hyping characters of a similar calibre, Kenny is basically a goof :)))
 
"GOATs" :)))

tumblr_phn25anicR1s05wxzo1_400.gif


That match was an embarrassment to this sport. Taker and Shawn should be ashamed of themselves for producing that garbage match.
 
Omega took devastating move after devastating move yet the match continued and in fact he has done this consistently in Japan which diminishes the element of selling which handicaps the ability to tell a story
Moves can be devastating without having the ability to get the win. 25+ years ago the DDT was a finishing move for Jake Roberts. Today, the DDT is just another move and would never finish a match. It depends on your moveset and the story you're telling on what move finishes the match and what doesn't. That's why you have both wrestlers trying to avoid the finishers at all costs.

in that same match the rainmaker didn't end proceedings when it was hit initially.
And I'm not a fan of that either. Okada has cheapened the Rainmaker by having many people kick out of the Rainmaker (I believe Tanahashi and Naito have also kicked out of it). It's a tactic Okada goes back to for really big matches, and it has only made the Rainmaker seem like a weak move. That is why I say that the idea that Omega could only have those good matches because Okada was his opponent is false. Okada's matches are generally predictable. Omega brought new elements that broke the predictability of Okada's matches.

Are you seriously comparing Ric playing possum in a heavyweight title fight to this disgrace:
I'm comparing Ric's best matches to Kenny's best matches. You're too obsessed with the comedy matches.

While you are at it may as well explain why Shark Boy and Curry-Man are the GOAT, this is the shtick which has turned people away from the industry in general.
Which people are you talking about? The kids that grew up that were turned away because the WWE product became family-friendly, storylines became less creative and promos became scripted and robotic? The likes of this guy:

Can't believe people still watch WWE these days... It's become so pathetic that even watching a 10 minute promo for 2000 is more entertaining than an entire Wrestlemania show these days. The in ring talent is still very good today but there are no good characters anymore, no interesting storylines. PG era is where WWE died. Social media also hurt wrestling.

Or are you talking about the older people that used to follow WWF that moved on to MMA?

The former have probably moved on from all combat sports, and the latter probably don't even want to watch wrestling anymore. Either way, they're more likely to be turned off by today's WWE than they would by NJPW.

Omega was there for around 2 year in ROH, when he realised he wasn't going to cut it he transitioned to Japan and began wrestling more frequently over there around 2010, in both promotions he was never positioned as the top guy
Omega was never a regular for ROH. He was based in Japan wrestling for DDT and had to be flown in, which ROH obviously tried to avoid doing. ROH was never going to make a non-regular their top guy. As for DDT, he did become their KO-D Openweight Champion in 2012 after his main event against Kota Ibushi.

Omega as you said meticulously planned what he intended to do taking away any organic element, he was well set on what he wanted to do and hurt the matches flow.
Omega's matches aren't any more meticulously planned than any WWE main event that you have seen (and most likely enjoyed) the past many years. Bret-Shawn wasn't "organic" either. If you've watched the Bret-Shawn DVD, you would've seen Bret talk about how they had planned out how each 10-minute period of the match would go. Bret also meticulously planned out his matches, just that they were less dramatic or even creative than Omega's matches were. And we already know how many agents WWE has today and how many people you have to go through to finalize how the matches would go, especially the main event. They micromanage to the point that they even have to be turning towards the right camera to hit a move or show their reactions after a kickout.

I wouldn't go back to watch that match again, I struggle to see how anyone else honestly would; they'd be lying to me, highly doubt they would go out of their way to see it again and again. I think it is beyond absurd to suggest Kenny is an innovative story teller, precisely due to not hitting his finisher in an overly hyped match lmao
"That match". More like "matches". I think knowing the matches with the doll and the 9-year-old girl and all the hype by Meltzer that you went in with the idea that you're not going to like the first match, tried your hardest not to and then didn't bother watching the matches after it.

The reason I'm saying that he is a great storyteller is not just the one match, but the series of matches. How they all tie in to each other. You'd have to not go in with a bias and then watch the series of matches and understand how they allude to things that happened in the past to try to gain the victory. Not hitting the finisher was part of of a bigger story. It got 4 matches of a series with fans getting behind Omega's hunger and drive to beat Okada knowing that if he hit the One Winged Angel, he could finally beat him.

That is what is easier for Japan market, all the audience looks for is in-ring work which revolves around high spots; they don't really care about anything else; you don't need to build a feud, work on promo extensively or character work.
That's actually false. Charisma has a lot to do with a wrestler's popularity. It's also part of the reason why New Japan sends their talent on foreign excursions to Mexico and the US. They return with a new attitude and a new look. Tanahashi, Naito and Hiromu Takahashi had stints in CMLL, Okada had the stint in US and KUSHIDA had a stint in Canada. Meanwhile, New Japan fans have turned against KENTA who just returned to Japan from NXT because they find him boring and lacking charisma. You also look at Katsuhiko Nakajima's reign as babyface champion of NOAH and how audiences dwindled in that time because they couldn't see him having the charisma for a top guy.

Charisma is very important in Japan. It may have a different meaning to you as someone used to American wrestling, but it definitely is important. None of the top guys in New Japan are bad at promos, be it Tanahashi, Naito or Okada.

The talent have a very light schedule and don't travel, then for the big events they get the license to go all out without having to worry about house shows
They don't travel? That's just not true. NJPW on average has anywhere between 11-14 events a month, which even the main eventers have to wrestle. The RAW roster on average has 4 events a week, or 16 a month. NJPW just did 10 events between 4th to 16th of this month, with some cities being as far as 4 and a half hours away from each other. Guys like Tanahashi and Naito wrestled on all of them.

But I don't know why their travel should matter to you if you're just looking to be entertained by pro-wrestling. You seem to be more intent on defending American wrestling or WWE specifically than actually discussing if his matches are good or not.

I also think it is horrific how he exposed the business, not sure if he was looking for cheap heat but that wasn't defendable at all and disgusting
To say a guy wrestling in a comedy promotion in Japan (that does this stuff all the time) that few people even know of, exposed the business to the entire world is ridiculous. The business was already at the point of no return as far as kayfabe goes after the Attitude Era. The only people who know of those matches are people who wrestling fans, or those who moved on from wrestling but already know the predetermined nature of the business. It's not like there were millions of people who suddenly realized that wrestling is fake after watching some obscure video of Kenny Omega wrestling in an even more obscure Japanese promotion.

Either way, even if you don't agree with those matches, that doesn't mean you can't watch the matches with Okada and enjoy them for what they are without letting the comedy matches cloud your judgment.
 
Moves can be devastating without having the ability to get the win. 25+ years ago the DDT was a finishing move for Jake Roberts. Today, the DDT is just another move and would never finish a match. It depends on your moveset and the story you're telling on what move finishes the match and what doesn't. That's why you have both wrestlers trying to avoid the finishers at all costs.


And I'm not a fan of that either. Okada has cheapened the Rainmaker by having many people kick out of the Rainmaker (I believe Tanahashi and Naito have also kicked out of it). It's a tactic Okada goes back to for really big matches, and it has only made the Rainmaker seem like a weak move. That is why I say that the idea that Omega could only have those good matches because Okada was his opponent is false. Okada's matches are generally predictable. Omega brought new elements that broke the predictability of Okada's matches.


I'm comparing Ric's best matches to Kenny's best matches. You're too obsessed with the comedy matches.


Which people are you talking about? The kids that grew up that were turned away because the WWE product became family-friendly, storylines became less creative and promos became scripted and robotic? The likes of this guy:



Or are you talking about the older people that used to follow WWF that moved on to MMA?

The former have probably moved on from all combat sports, and the latter probably don't even want to watch wrestling anymore. Either way, they're more likely to be turned off by today's WWE than they would by NJPW.


Omega was never a regular for ROH. He was based in Japan wrestling for DDT and had to be flown in, which ROH obviously tried to avoid doing. ROH was never going to make a non-regular their top guy. As for DDT, he did become their KO-D Openweight Champion in 2012 after his main event against Kota Ibushi.


Omega's matches aren't any more meticulously planned than any WWE main event that you have seen (and most likely enjoyed) the past many years. Bret-Shawn wasn't "organic" either. If you've watched the Bret-Shawn DVD, you would've seen Bret talk about how they had planned out how each 10-minute period of the match would go. Bret also meticulously planned out his matches, just that they were less dramatic or even creative than Omega's matches were. And we already know how many agents WWE has today and how many people you have to go through to finalize how the matches would go, especially the main event. They micromanage to the point that they even have to be turning towards the right camera to hit a move or show their reactions after a kickout.


"That match". More like "matches". I think knowing the matches with the doll and the 9-year-old girl and all the hype by Meltzer that you went in with the idea that you're not going to like the first match, tried your hardest not to and then didn't bother watching the matches after it.

The reason I'm saying that he is a great storyteller is not just the one match, but the series of matches. How they all tie in to each other. You'd have to not go in with a bias and then watch the series of matches and understand how they allude to things that happened in the past to try to gain the victory. Not hitting the finisher was part of of a bigger story. It got 4 matches of a series with fans getting behind Omega's hunger and drive to beat Okada knowing that if he hit the One Winged Angel, he could finally beat him.


That's actually false. Charisma has a lot to do with a wrestler's popularity. It's also part of the reason why New Japan sends their talent on foreign excursions to Mexico and the US. They return with a new attitude and a new look. Tanahashi, Naito and Hiromu Takahashi had stints in CMLL, Okada had the stint in US and KUSHIDA had a stint in Canada. Meanwhile, New Japan fans have turned against KENTA who just returned to Japan from NXT because they find him boring and lacking charisma. You also look at Katsuhiko Nakajima's reign as babyface champion of NOAH and how audiences dwindled in that time because they couldn't see him having the charisma for a top guy.

Charisma is very important in Japan. It may have a different meaning to you as someone used to American wrestling, but it definitely is important. None of the top guys in New Japan are bad at promos, be it Tanahashi, Naito or Okada.


They don't travel? That's just not true. NJPW on average has anywhere between 11-14 events a month, which even the main eventers have to wrestle. The RAW roster on average has 4 events a week, or 16 a month. NJPW just did 10 events between 4th to 16th of this month, with some cities being as far as 4 and a half hours away from each other. Guys like Tanahashi and Naito wrestled on all of them.

But I don't know why their travel should matter to you if you're just looking to be entertained by pro-wrestling. You seem to be more intent on defending American wrestling or WWE specifically than actually discussing if his matches are good or not.


To say a guy wrestling in a comedy promotion in Japan (that does this stuff all the time) that few people even know of, exposed the business to the entire world is ridiculous. The business was already at the point of no return as far as kayfabe goes after the Attitude Era. The only people who know of those matches are people who wrestling fans, or those who moved on from wrestling but already know the predetermined nature of the business. It's not like there were millions of people who suddenly realized that wrestling is fake after watching some obscure video of Kenny Omega wrestling in an even more obscure Japanese promotion.

Either way, even if you don't agree with those matches, that doesn't mean you can't watch the matches with Okada and enjoy them for what they are without letting the comedy matches cloud your judgment.

I religiously follow combat sport and I am completely turned off by the stuff Omega is doing it is too fake, it is an insult to the business; the fact that you are overlooking his behaviour which exposed the business is a disgrace; his gimmick of a goof resonates with those mostly with similar niche interests as him to be polite, not necessarily acceptable traits in modern society but I imagine men dressed as princess jasmine, wrestling little girls and men throwing around blow up dolls in the name of sports entertainment must be very popular in India; Omega is no good story teller, not using a finisher in a match to tell a story has been done before, it is not something unique or innovative; it is also humiliating how you are advocating a narrative where he deserves all the credit for his matches, that is disrespectful to an high calibre in-ring performer such as Okada.

The same people who are turned off by WWE would approve of this:

BCAladdin.jpg


Kayfabe may not be what it use to be but at least not take mick on another level altogether. Being a hardcore enthusiast which has followed all forms and styles whilst watching combat more then anything these days there is no appeal for me when it comes to Omega.

Bret/Shawn planning an iron-man which had not been done before is completely different, more-over their planning didn't hurt the match and elevated it; moreover they were great to watch technically speaking and it is an insult to even remotely suggest that Omega's matches are more creative, if we go back to that match with Okada; what did he do which was vastly more creative, he wasted a significant amount of time in the first half just laying around; Bret had the technical expertise to display his ground work and his unique submission offence instead of just laying around to take rests for long periods and Omega needed those to go for those so he didn't gas for multiple finishing stretches which were't required and were over the top, the extra monkeying around at the end wasn't really needed or the massive dead spots early on.

If I was that bothered wouldn't have even watched that match to begin with, I always tune into WK shows and enjoy watching Nakamura while he was there and Okada to; I watched that match with an open mind and I still don't understand why you assume that am saying it was terrible, I just didn't put it on such a big pedestal as you or begun to call Omega a more creative performer then Bret like a big idiot, in the end what I saw was a very long winded match which included a very poor exhibition of selling and lazy story telling; they'd just lay around for so long in between a big spot, force the notion of a long match being a classic and overly sold in order to get rests for their crazy finishing stretches which made the match too fake, it was a series of moves and long rests in between. As far as athleticism is concerned 10/10 sure can't deny that, but for what they did it could easily have been chopped in half timing wise; this is where their planning and over-booking was poor, I feel more sorry for Okada that he had to deal with such a talent.

Here's the thing, why do I have to watch the rematches ? after what I saw in the first match I just wasn't compelled to see the remainder, am not as invested in Omega or have a fetish for him or something, I just don't like him in that way mate.; especially considering I didn't enjoy the match as much as you nor am I interested in Omega's "Charisma" since we are calling his unique facial expressions just that and coming out the closet anime character.

In Japan Charisma is important to a degree but there is no where near as big an emphasis on promo work and segments to build an angle leading to a match, it's just the wrestling which they look forward to. This is why Jap talent naturally doesn't find it as easy in NA, Nakamura and Muta done fairly well; in an environment such as NA where you have to deal with so many external influences, diverse audiences, a rigorous touring schedule / travel which is so brutal compared to anywhere else and working before massive crowds it's all a much bigger challenge and you can't get away with not being invested in your persona as much. Historically some of the best ever coming out of NA/EU did very well in Jap, you don't see as much of a successful transition the other way in leading promotions.
 
I religiously follow combat sport and I am completely turned off by the stuff Omega is doing it is too fake, it is an insult to the business; the fact that you are overlooking his behaviour which exposed the business is a disgrace; his gimmick of a goof resonates with those mostly with similar niche interests as him to be polite, not necessarily acceptable traits in modern society but I imagine men dressed as princess jasmine, wrestling little girls and men throwing around blow up dolls in the name of sports entertainment must be very popular in India; Omega is no good story teller, not using a finisher in a match to tell a story has been done before, it is not something unique or innovative; it is also humiliating how you are advocating a narrative where he deserves all the credit for his matches, that is disrespectful to an high calibre in-ring performer such as Okada.

The same people who are turned off by WWE would approve of this:

BCAladdin.jpg


Kayfabe may not be what it use to be but at least not take mick on another level altogether. Being a hardcore enthusiast which has followed all forms and styles whilst watching combat more then anything these days there is no appeal for me when it comes to Omega.

Bret/Shawn planning an iron-man which had not been done before is completely different, more-over their planning didn't hurt the match and elevated it; moreover they were great to watch technically speaking and it is an insult to even remotely suggest that Omega's matches are more creative, if we go back to that match with Okada; what did he do which was vastly more creative, he wasted a significant amount of time in the first half just laying around; Bret had the technical expertise to display his ground work and his unique submission offence instead of just laying around to take rests for long periods and Omega needed those to go for those so he didn't gas for multiple finishing stretches which were't required and were over the top, the extra monkeying around at the end wasn't really needed or the massive dead spots early on.

If I was that bothered wouldn't have even watched that match to begin with, I always tune into WK shows and enjoy watching Nakamura while he was there and Okada to; I watched that match with an open mind and I still don't understand why you assume that am saying it was terrible, I just didn't put it on such a big pedestal as you or begun to call Omega a more creative performer then Bret like a big idiot, in the end what I saw was a very long winded match which included a very poor exhibition of selling and lazy story telling; they'd just lay around for so long in between a big spot, force the notion of a long match being a classic and overly sold in order to get rests for their crazy finishing stretches which made the match too fake, it was a series of moves and long rests in between. As far as athleticism is concerned 10/10 sure can't deny that, but for what they did it could easily have been chopped in half timing wise; this is where their planning and over-booking was poor, I feel more sorry for Okada that he had to deal with such a talent.

Here's the thing, why do I have to watch the rematches ? after what I saw in the first match I just wasn't compelled to see the remainder, am not as invested in Omega or have a fetish for him or something, I just don't like him in that way mate.; especially considering I didn't enjoy the match as much as you nor am I interested in Omega's "Charisma" since we are calling his unique facial expressions just that and coming out the closet anime character.

In Japan Charisma is important to a degree but there is no where near as big an emphasis on promo work and segments to build an angle leading to a match, it's just the wrestling which they look forward to. This is why Jap talent naturally doesn't find it as easy in NA, Nakamura and Muta done fairly well; in an environment such as NA where you have to deal with so many external influences, diverse audiences, a rigorous touring schedule / travel which is so brutal compared to anywhere else and working before massive crowds it's all a much bigger challenge and you can't get away with not being invested in your persona as much. Historically some of the best ever coming out of NA/EU did very well in Jap, you don't see as much of a successful transition the other way in leading promotions.
[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] what is your opinion on Omega being more creative then Bret Hart :))) Jesus Christ, what has Dave Meltzer fed these guys; ironically I actually had an exchange with him which implied that not everyone in Jap can be Bret so they are overly reliant on high spots and risky manoeuvres to incite a reaction from the crowd
 
[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Very interesting as I hadn't heard of this one before, Jim supposedly came up with the finish as an idea which he never expected Vince to use; so when he saw Shawn apply the Sharpshooter he immediately left the arena as he knew what was going to happen; for sure HHH / Vince were the main facilitators and Shawn most likely knew about it as well
 
Apparently Kenny Omega is better then Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Bret Hart, Austin etc :)))

[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=77713]reddevil[/MENTION]

I doubt people even know who he is lmao and those who have watched him perform would laugh in your face, he is a voice for the LGBT community main reason you like him Aman but don't forget he supported sex offenders and wrestled a friggin blow up doll

Aman just has beef with WWE I don't even take this guy seriously he has no real answer to the questions I pose to him. I don't even read his wrestling comments anymore :)))
 
WWE on a massive role last 2-3 months RAW and SD have been so captivating creatively, excited for COC, NXT debut on USA and the KOTF finals (I actually predicted the finalists, think they couldn't be any better choice in terms of timing / elevation). What a fitting show piece at the Garden this week, both events delivered at MSG and what a magical moment between AJ Styles and Austin; the instant chemistry was insane and Styles held his own in terms of being a competitor worthy enough to share a platform with such a huge legend, the promo was incredible lmao and that sell of the stunner, best I have ever seen; The Rock use to over do it and make it look fake by using his arms to flip over; this is AJ Styles who does that tag of greatest in-ring performer of his gen justice time and time again, take a bow son it's been a pleasure, watch him while he is still around because he wont be long, all of a sudden I want to see Styles/Austin aha who would have thought I'd be saying that in 2019, but legends just legending I guess :yk [MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION]

I agree, it's been pretty solid there are things I would change but overall it's been an excellent effort from WWE to make it entertaining for the past couple months. Honestly been so busy for the past 2 months that I'm just keeping up on youtube. Really like what they did with Wyatt and the Fiend. Also the KOTF Final was outstanding, way better than I expected best performance of Baron's career in my opinion. Also it was really nice to see Taker and Austin back in the garden, great shows for the garden. Overall WWE has been pretty solid for a while now.

As for ratings for the Garden match, if it weren't for the epic Monday Night Football match which was crazy entertaining came down to the last minute the ratings would of done much better. Some smarks just want to say things without digging deeper but it's cool because it just goes on to show their intellectual level.
 
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Whenever I'm down, I watch Shawn's last ever wrestling match. This is a match which would perfectly in DDT.

Never fails to crack me up, 4 old geezers who should have retired years ago trying relive their glory days. Karma hit them - HHH tore his pectoral early in the match and left it to Shawn in his RETURN match to try carry and save the match.

Dude does a moonsault to the outside to try get the crowd going and save it, only for Kane and Taker to fail to catch him and him to land face first and bust his nose.

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God as my witness, I laughed. A lot. and have seen this clip too many times and never not laughed.

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Camera caught Shawn visibly saying "we're too old for this -" :)))
 
I religiously follow combat sport and I am completely turned off by the stuff Omega is doing it is too fake
What stuff? His matches against Okada, Tanahashi, Naito seemed fake? What about it seemed fake?

the fact that you are overlooking his behaviour which exposed the business is a disgrace
Omega disgraced the business by wrestling a 9-year-old for a small crowd in Japan but Undertaker rising from the dead multiple times, Kane burning Jim Ross alive but him returning without a scratch, nWo running through an ambulance with The Rock in it with a truck and him still being healthy for WrestleMania, Vince McMahon wrestling in a match against God etc. in front of millions of fans around the world didn't? You find all that not fake as someone who religiously follows combat sport?

Omega is no good story teller, not using a finisher in a match to tell a story has been done before, it is not something unique or innovative
It is when you are able to wrestle two highly competitive matches of over an hour and half total in length without ever hitting it, and it becomes the focal point of a 4-match series.

Bret/Shawn planning an iron-man which had not been done before is completely different
What had not been done before? Planning the match, which I'm sure has been done many times before. Or the match itself, which also was done many times before Bret-Shawn.

moreover they were great to watch technically speaking and it is an insult to even remotely suggest that Omega's matches are more creative
A match where they spent 50 of the 60 minutes trading rest holds was technically great to watch and creative? You either have limited memory of the match or didn't watch the match entirely. The match seemed like two guys who were told that they have 60 minutes to wrestle and do what they can to fill the time and last the full 60 minutes. There was a complete lack of urgency or desperation from both wrestlers to even try to get a pinfall and instead both were content in trading restholds, which again is a testimony to the fact that they were just looking to fill time more than anything else. If it truly is a match you would watch again, then I suggest you actually do that and see how it holds. It seems that you've built up the match in your head more because of the wrestlers in it than because of the actual match itself.

if we go back to that match with Okada; what did he do which was vastly more creative, he wasted a significant amount of time in the first half just laying around
"just laying around"? Which match are you even talking about? The first match certainly had no one "laying around" in the first half. They both wrestled at a pace most would a 25 minute match, which makes it all the more hard to believe that they went 45 minutes.

I watched that match with an open mind and I still don't understand why you assume that am saying it was terrible, I just didn't put it on such a big pedestal as you or begun to call Omega a more creative performer then Bret like a big idiot
You're calling me "a big idiot" for my opinion while I'm judging the matches based on the match itself rather the reputation of the wrestlers in it. One doesn't need to even watch the entirety of both matches. Just watch the first 30 minutes of both matches and see which match had a greater sense of purpose and urgency and a desire to actually inflict damage on the opponent to win the match than just spend most of the time in chinlocks and armbars. You keep talking about Dave Meltzer though I couldn't care less about his opinion, though it seems you have bought into WWE's hype of Bret-Shawn being one of the great matches while you don't even remember what the actual match was like.

Let's be honest. If two wrestlers you did not know wrestled the same exact match that Bret and Shawn did at WrestleMania XII, you would absolutely trash it. But because it's Bret and Shawn and that WWE has hyped it as one of the great matches of all time, you've built up the idea in your head that a match comprising of restholds with little to no sense of urgency is a technical masterclass and more creative, upto the point where you're even criticising Omega vs Okada for exactly what Bret vs Shawn was guilty of.

Here's the thing, why do I have to watch the rematches ?
Because like I already said, it's the story and the moments from the initial matches that build into the following matches that make it great storytelling. It's like Chapter 1 of a four-chapter story. Now if you don't want to watch them that's fine, but you can't then go into how Omega is no good at storytelling when you don't even try to understand why I say he's good at storytelling. Every wrestler, especially in American wrestling, needs an elaborate storyline or promos to build their matches. This guy used the matches themselves to build the story, and I'm not talking about how great the matches were, but the moments that affected the initial matches dictated how they would react in future matches. It was long-term planning that would be appreciated all the more when the four matches are watched in succession.

In Japan Charisma is important to a degree but there is no where near as big an emphasis on promo work and segments to build an angle leading to a match, it's just the wrestling which they look forward to. This is why Jap talent naturally doesn't find it as easy in NA, Nakamura and Muta done fairly well; in an environment such as NA where you have to deal with so many external influences, diverse audiences, a rigorous touring schedule / travel which is so brutal compared to anywhere else and working before massive crowds it's all a much bigger challenge and you can't get away with not being invested in your persona as much. Historically some of the best ever coming out of NA/EU did very well in Jap, you don't see as much of a successful transition the other way in leading promotions.
Like I already said, it's false to say that Japanese audiences only look forward to the wrestling and not charisma or even promo work. You look at NJPW, AJPW and NOAH right now. In Okada, Miyahara and Kiyomiya, all three promotions have world champions that are charismatic and can hype the crowd up. And that's no coincidence. Their business was in the dumps when they had serious champions lacking in charisma. Charisma is absolutely important in Japan. You force a guy to the top who can wrestle great but lacks charisma and you do that at the expense of your business.

Historically some of the best ever coming out of NA/EU did very well in Jap, you don't see as much of a successful transition the other way in leading promotions.
That has less to do with Japanese talent and more to do with the long held perception that American audiences wouldn't accept Japanese talent. You've had Muta in WCW and Bull Nakano in WWF, but then in the Attitude Era you obviously had Kaientai with Funaki and Michinoku and later Tajiri coming in as a comedy act. It was ECW and later ROH that booked Japanese talent like bigger threats, with Takeshi Morishima being the ROH World Champion and the likes of Misawa and Kobashi main eventing shows. Had it not been for the growing success of NJPW in the United States, WWE wouldn't even have bothered going after Nakamura.

To say Japan doesn't have diverse audiences would be false. Okada is cheered in some places and booed in others, and Naito despite being cheered in a lot of places is always booed in Osaka. NJPW also, like I already said, have a busy schedule. NJPW is very successful in its own right despite having a product which is vastly different from your regular American wrestling product, and what they do obviously works for them. It's silly to hold their product or the wrestlers in it against them. Their lack of success has little to do with their talent and more to do with the way they're booked, which is why Muta and Nakamura seem to have been successful in your eyes and a Tajiri or Funaki haven't.
 
What stuff? His matches against Okada, Tanahashi, Naito seemed fake? What about it seemed fake?


Omega disgraced the business by wrestling a 9-year-old for a small crowd in Japan but Undertaker rising from the dead multiple times, Kane burning Jim Ross alive but him returning without a scratch, nWo running through an ambulance with The Rock in it with a truck and him still being healthy for WrestleMania, Vince McMahon wrestling in a match against God etc. in front of millions of fans around the world didn't? You find all that not fake as someone who religiously follows combat sport?


It is when you are able to wrestle two highly competitive matches of over an hour and half total in length without ever hitting it, and it becomes the focal point of a 4-match series.


What had not been done before? Planning the match, which I'm sure has been done many times before. Or the match itself, which also was done many times before Bret-Shawn.


A match where they spent 50 of the 60 minutes trading rest holds was technically great to watch and creative? You either have limited memory of the match or didn't watch the match entirely. The match seemed like two guys who were told that they have 60 minutes to wrestle and do what they can to fill the time and last the full 60 minutes. There was a complete lack of urgency or desperation from both wrestlers to even try to get a pinfall and instead both were content in trading restholds, which again is a testimony to the fact that they were just looking to fill time more than anything else. If it truly is a match you would watch again, then I suggest you actually do that and see how it holds. It seems that you've built up the match in your head more because of the wrestlers in it than because of the actual match itself.


"just laying around"? Which match are you even talking about? The first match certainly had no one "laying around" in the first half. They both wrestled at a pace most would a 25 minute match, which makes it all the more hard to believe that they went 45 minutes.


You're calling me "a big idiot" for my opinion while I'm judging the matches based on the match itself rather the reputation of the wrestlers in it. One doesn't need to even watch the entirety of both matches. Just watch the first 30 minutes of both matches and see which match had a greater sense of purpose and urgency and a desire to actually inflict damage on the opponent to win the match than just spend most of the time in chinlocks and armbars. You keep talking about Dave Meltzer though I couldn't care less about his opinion, though it seems you have bought into WWE's hype of Bret-Shawn being one of the great matches while you don't even remember what the actual match was like.

Let's be honest. If two wrestlers you did not know wrestled the same exact match that Bret and Shawn did at WrestleMania XII, you would absolutely trash it. But because it's Bret and Shawn and that WWE has hyped it as one of the great matches of all time, you've built up the idea in your head that a match comprising of restholds with little to no sense of urgency is a technical masterclass and more creative, upto the point where you're even criticising Omega vs Okada for exactly what Bret vs Shawn was guilty of.


Because like I already said, it's the story and the moments from the initial matches that build into the following matches that make it great storytelling. It's like Chapter 1 of a four-chapter story. Now if you don't want to watch them that's fine, but you can't then go into how Omega is no good at storytelling when you don't even try to understand why I say he's good at storytelling. Every wrestler, especially in American wrestling, needs an elaborate storyline or promos to build their matches. This guy used the matches themselves to build the story, and I'm not talking about how great the matches were, but the moments that affected the initial matches dictated how they would react in future matches. It was long-term planning that would be appreciated all the more when the four matches are watched in succession.


Like I already said, it's false to say that Japanese audiences only look forward to the wrestling and not charisma or even promo work. You look at NJPW, AJPW and NOAH right now. In Okada, Miyahara and Kiyomiya, all three promotions have world champions that are charismatic and can hype the crowd up. And that's no coincidence. Their business was in the dumps when they had serious champions lacking in charisma. Charisma is absolutely important in Japan. You force a guy to the top who can wrestle great but lacks charisma and you do that at the expense of your business.


That has less to do with Japanese talent and more to do with the long held perception that American audiences wouldn't accept Japanese talent. You've had Muta in WCW and Bull Nakano in WWF, but then in the Attitude Era you obviously had Kaientai with Funaki and Michinoku and later Tajiri coming in as a comedy act. It was ECW and later ROH that booked Japanese talent like bigger threats, with Takeshi Morishima being the ROH World Champion and the likes of Misawa and Kobashi main eventing shows. Had it not been for the growing success of NJPW in the United States, WWE wouldn't even have bothered going after Nakamura.

To say Japan doesn't have diverse audiences would be false. Okada is cheered in some places and booed in others, and Naito despite being cheered in a lot of places is always booed in Osaka. NJPW also, like I already said, have a busy schedule. NJPW is very successful in its own right despite having a product which is vastly different from your regular American wrestling product, and what they do obviously works for them. It's silly to hold their product or the wrestlers in it against them. Their lack of success has little to do with their talent and more to do with the way they're booked, which is why Muta and Nakamura seem to have been successful in your eyes and a Tajiri or Funaki haven't.

Clearly you are a mark for this gay dude Kenny, hence why your objectivity is no where to be seen when you call him a vastly creative rasler compared to Bret of all people, how can anyone not be a big idiot for this opinion even more so when you are making a direct comparison between matches in isolation to, Bret's career itself did not revolve around that Iron-Man match which had never been done before in the promotion. And nothing will compare to Omega dressing as princess Jasmine and wrestling blow up dolls and little girls, that is beyond pathetic when it comes exposing the business.

A series of rest holds, what an absoloutely narrow minded mark you are you clearly could not appreciate an exhibition of technical wrestling perhaps if they had more flips you would like it but an Indian dude that don't know jack about actual combat wouldn't be able to comprehend their performances which was split into portions to display each style and a story of determining the most supreme all round performer, am not surprised you would say that given how you drool over excessive high spots and long periods of laying around on the floor between devastating moves which should end a match, there is simply no realism to Omega's work, you can call it sports entertainment but not a proper pro wrestling fight.

Yeah blame booking for Jap talent not being good enough in a territory which is vastly more challenging.

And I don't need to see the remainder of that series as they didn't compell me to see anything further, last Kenny match I saw was vs Jericho in AEW; dude looked even worse, basically what I always knew - a glorified mid carder who is over rated, modern era's ultimate warrior
 
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Clearly you are a mark for this gay dude Kenny, hence why your objectivity is no where to be seen when you call him a vastly creative rasler compared to Bret of all people
The very fact that you say I'm comparing him to "Bret of all people" shows who's being the real mark here. It's clear to see you're going by the reputation of the wrestlers or the hype that WWE makes you believe of it being one of the all-time great matches, rather than your own opinion after actually watching the match in full. But let's be honest here, you don't even remember most of what happened in the Bret vs Shawn match and if you went back to watch it, you most likely won't bother watching it again.

Bret's career itself did not revolve around that Iron-Man match which had never been done before in the promotion
It had been done twice in the WWF before that match, and Bret Hart wrestled in it both times. Is that another one of the lies that WWE makes you believe?

And nothing will compare to Omega dressing as princess Jasmine and wrestling blow up dolls and little girls, that is beyond pathetic when it comes exposing the business.
Explain how any of this didn't expose the business:
Omega disgraced the business by wrestling a 9-year-old for a small crowd in Japan but Undertaker rising from the dead multiple times, Kane burning Jim Ross alive but him returning without a scratch, nWo running through an ambulance with The Rock in it with a truck and him still being healthy for WrestleMania, Vince McMahon wrestling in a match against God etc. in front of millions of fans around the world didn't? You find all that not fake as someone who religiously follows combat sport?

In fact you'd watch WWE every week where wrestlers talk backstage while standing at an awkward angle to each other so that they face the camera that's right in front of them but completely ignore its existence, and yet you think that doesn't expose the business?

A series of rest holds, what an absoloutely narrow minded mark you are you clearly could not appreciate an exhibition of technical wrestling
This here just goes to show that people would believe anything WWE wants them to believe and mindlessly parrot everything they say without actually watching the show and having an opinion of their own. WWE will want you to believe that a 50 minute trading of headlocks and armbars with them just laying there clearly to fill time, with no variety of holds and no desire to actually win is a display of great technical wrestling. The fact that you talk about the match so vaguely itself tells that you don't even remember how the match was.

perhaps if they had more flips you would like it
Seems more like a random argument against indy fans rather than an actual argument against what I said about Omega's match, which was about the storytelling and not the flips and dives. Just goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

but an Indian dude that don't know jack about actual combat wouldn't be able to comprehend their performances which was split into portions to display each style and a story of determining the most supreme all round performer
That would've been great except for the fact that they wrestled mostly the same style most of the match, with Bret going for the headlock and Shawn going for the armbar. Over and over. With the opponent just laying there taking it. That would've made sense if they actually wrestled a style unique from each other, but again, you're bringing up arguments that didn't even apply to the match because you don't even remember the match itself.

long periods of laying around on the floor
Watch both matches and see which one of them had greater periods of inactivity. Hint: It's not the Omega-Okada match.

you can call it sports entertainment but not a proper pro wrestling fight.
Hilarious that you actually believe "sports entertainment" and "pro wrestling" are actually two different things. Further proof that you've been drinking the WWE kool-aid for too long. "Sports entertainment" was just a fancier way Vince wanted to call his product because sponsors thought "pro-wrestling" was low brow and appealed to low income people.

And I don't need to see the remainder of that series as they didn't compell me to see anything further
You most likely wouldn't see any of the matches you mentioned either because if you did, you would realise that it wasn't as good as you imagined it to be in your head.
 
The very fact that you say I'm comparing him to "Bret of all people" shows who's being the real mark here. It's clear to see you're going by the reputation of the wrestlers or the hype that WWE makes you believe of it being one of the all-time great matches, rather than your own opinion after actually watching the match in full. But let's be honest here, you don't even remember most of what happened in the Bret vs Shawn match and if you went back to watch it, you most likely won't bother watching it again.


It had been done twice in the WWF before that match, and Bret Hart wrestled in it both times. Is that another one of the lies that WWE makes you believe?


Explain how any of this didn't expose the business:


In fact you'd watch WWE every week where wrestlers talk backstage while standing at an awkward angle to each other so that they face the camera that's right in front of them but completely ignore its existence, and yet you think that doesn't expose the business?


This here just goes to show that people would believe anything WWE wants them to believe and mindlessly parrot everything they say without actually watching the show and having an opinion of their own. WWE will want you to believe that a 50 minute trading of headlocks and armbars with them just laying there clearly to fill time, with no variety of holds and no desire to actually win is a display of great technical wrestling. The fact that you talk about the match so vaguely itself tells that you don't even remember how the match was.


Seems more like a random argument against indy fans rather than an actual argument against what I said about Omega's match, which was about the storytelling and not the flips and dives. Just goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about anymore.


That would've been great except for the fact that they wrestled mostly the same style most of the match, with Bret going for the headlock and Shawn going for the armbar. Over and over. With the opponent just laying there taking it. That would've made sense if they actually wrestled a style unique from each other, but again, you're bringing up arguments that didn't even apply to the match because you don't even remember the match itself.


Watch both matches and see which one of them had greater periods of inactivity. Hint: It's not the Omega-Okada match.


Hilarious that you actually believe "sports entertainment" and "pro wrestling" are actually two different things. Further proof that you've been drinking the WWE kool-aid for too long. "Sports entertainment" was just a fancier way Vince wanted to call his product because sponsors thought "pro-wrestling" was low brow and appealed to low income people.


You most likely wouldn't see any of the matches you mentioned either because if you did, you would realise that it wasn't as good as you imagined it to be in your head.

I aint the tool with mark in my name lmao Bret of all people as in one of the all time greats with a unique technical pedgiree, so Omega laying around is superior to guys actually working, if the arm bar and headlock was the only thing you saw like a blind bat then at least it was applied beautifully, give me that any day then Omega laying around, no selling or just laying around after a big spot or excessive high spots before taking a million moves which should end a match, never mind how he is horrible to watch and only rated because of the hype from hipsters

How can anything ever compare to a dude wrestling a little girl and blow up dolls, that is nasty, then dressing like Jasmine, taking being vastly more creative then the hitman to a new level lmao is this the legitimacy which is meant to bring back mma and boxing fans mr TNA mark lmao
 
Is it actually possible to remain civil to each other on this thread?
 
You are right, am surprised I have entertained such radical views and will not entertain them any further; I feel embarrassed and embarrassed for wrestling to which is more fake then ever due to Omega:

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Enjoy having debates with folk in the Boxing thread a lot more, this is just beyond creepy lol
 
I agree, it's been pretty solid there are things I would change but overall it's been an excellent effort from WWE to make it entertaining for the past couple months. Honestly been so busy for the past 2 months that I'm just keeping up on youtube. Really like what they did with Wyatt and the Fiend. Also the KOTF Final was outstanding, way better than I expected best performance of Baron's career in my opinion. Also it was really nice to see Taker and Austin back in the garden, great shows for the garden. Overall WWE has been pretty solid for a while now.

As for ratings for the Garden match, if it weren't for the epic Monday Night Football match which was crazy entertaining came down to the last minute the ratings would of done much better. Some smarks just want to say things without digging deeper but it's cool because it just goes on to show their intellectual level.

Hopefully all is well mate, definetly worth keeping up with it now and they have made some decent improvements with Heyman and Eric taking over certain divisions. The KOTR tournament in general has been great, the quality of matches have been fantastic; I have always rated Corbin and he has surprised everyone with the improvement all round, I felt before the tournament either Corbin or Gable would be fantastic choices and really help elevate them, enjoyed the final. Great to see Taker and Austin back for sure, those hipsters are beyond moronic; if we see an improvement in rating over that episode would it all of a sudden mean that Rollin and Kofi are bigger draws then those names :facepalm: it does show their intellectual level.

The character of the FIEND is incredible and I like how he has been used so far, nothing quite like this in the business; my only concern is that now he is booked for a match at HIAC he may well end up losing, it's one of those situations where they need to keep the title on Seth but it doesn't make sense for the Fiend to lose either
 
[MENTION=138821]TNAmarkFromIndia[/MENTION] are you watching Destruction in Kobe this week?

Naito and White has been built up brilliantly and Shingo vs Goto should be a banger.

Shingo had a great G1 and produced some amazing matches, incredible athlete and wrestler.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ja" dir="ltr">Replay ‘<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/njdest?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#njdest</a> in BEPPU’ (September 15th, 2019) post-match videos on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/njpwworld?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#njpwworld</a>!! Watch FREE▶︎<a href="https://t.co/z1DNREy98D">https://t.co/z1DNREy98D</a><br><br>9月15日(日) DESTRUCTION in BEPPU のバックステージコメントを <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/%E6%96%B0%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%83%97%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#新日本プロレスワールド</a> で無料公開&#55357;&#56393;<a href="https://t.co/z1DNREy98D">https://t.co/z1DNREy98D</a><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/njpw?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#njpw</a><br><br>.<a href="https://twitter.com/realchaseowens?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@realchaseowens</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/JayWhiteNZ?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JayWhiteNZ</a> <a href="https://t.co/gB0MiADczf">pic.twitter.com/gB0MiADczf</a></p>— njpwworld (@njpwworld) <a href="https://twitter.com/njpwworld/status/1173439576959963136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 16, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Jay White to me is the best heel in the business, he is only 26 and has improved leaps and bounds the last year.

His match with Ibushi was an all time great match and is one of my favorite matches of all time.

Meltzer gave it 5.5* so he's getting some love from that crowd that gives him a lot of hate too.
 
AEW's weekly show will apparently be called Dynamite.

ga98f97rvcn31.png


The North American GOAT, the GOAT gaijin, the first gaijin G1 winner, the man who ended Okada's GOAT title run, the perennial breaker of the Meltzer scale and Best Bout Machine about to make his weekly show debut.

According to Meltzer WWE offered him a 7 figure deal which he turned down so he could sign with AEW and have the freedom to express himself and produce those masterpieces in ring. What a beautiful wrestler and storyteller.

i
 
Came across this the other day


Very high in-ring IQ on display, this backyard wrestler regarded by his niche followers as a great worker is a fantastic example of how the modern style has evolved, the man called Dave Meltzer who parades his exploits in the ring recently retweeted this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">INSANE. She makes it look like a walk in the park. <a href="https://t.co/KI5hKSYBsD">https://t.co/KI5hKSYBsD</a></p>— FloGymnastics (@FloGymnastics) <a href="https://twitter.com/FloGymnastics/status/1175878775164346370?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 22, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

It's hardly surprising because Omega's in-ring work and the modern style revolves around the same method, gymnastics and circus freaks; not fighting men, nor is the goal to emphasise a real fight, hence why you also see this:


As a consequence if the industry is shamed for being a joke then it can only blame itself and the people who get off on this shouldn't complain for enjoying this as it is highly questionable, even in its greatest form in their eyes which involves their biggest show at the Tokyo Dome. A criterion used to determine the nature of their perfect performances involves working specifically in Japan against the stars which are regarded as the best in singles action alone, exaggerating facial expressions, being good at gymnastics and cross dressing from time to time; it helps when you have favour amongst journalists who enjoy all this.
 

Jesus Christ, never mind the mic break and humiliating P.R; what a horrendous promo, zero charisma, good bye and good night? :facepalm: what has come of the industry? in an era where we have the rise of LGBT propaganda and protests, beyond the likeness for a series of devastating flips; there is a reason why folk are compelled to support this individual due to his orientation:

 

What a masterpiece this was a real fight, Bret deserves massive credit for playing his part in the rise of Austin. That heel run was incredible, it's also a reflection of how awful the WCW set up was that they were not able to exploit all that heat Bret had post screwjob, they had the biggest star in the world at the time based on momentum and heat
[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]
 

What a masterpiece this was a real fight, Bret deserves massive credit for playing his part in the rise of Austin. That heel run was incredible, it's also a reflection of how awful the WCW set up was that they were not able to exploit all that heat Bret had post screwjob, they had the biggest star in the world at the time based on momentum and heat
[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Man I feel sorry for fans who missed out on this. Wrestling will never come anywhere close to being this entertaining. :(
 

What a masterpiece this was a real fight, Bret deserves massive credit for playing his part in the rise of Austin. That heel run was incredible, it's also a reflection of how awful the WCW set up was that they were not able to exploit all that heat Bret had post screwjob, they had the biggest star in the world at the time based on momentum and heat
[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Always said it one of the best wrestling matches in the history of the sport. Not enough words to describe how much I loved this match. Easily makes my top 3 of all time like I've always said.
 
Just had to take a moment to acknowledge the BEST Wrestler in the world.

WWE.jpg

The most appropriate picture I could find of the BEST Wrestler in the world right now, how apt that he is holding the greatest and most prestigious title in the history of pro wrestling.
 
Even after HBK the greatest in ring performer of all time retired this man has been there to not fill the huge void left by the HBK. Albeit AJ did it over the whole word before coming to WWE this man has been amazing to watch he made wrestling fun to watch. Even when there wasn't much good wrestling to watch this guy was killing it all around the world.

In terms of In Ring Performance no one can ever touch HBK and AJ.
 
Always said it one of the best wrestling matches in the history of the sport. Not enough words to describe how much I loved this match. Easily makes my top 3 of all time like I've always said.

Special match, I've never seen a match in the Tokyo Dome which came close remotely. It simulated a real fight, intensity was of the charts and so was the in-ring IQ being displayed; story-telling and pro-raslin at its absolute peak. It's a shame how WCW used Bret and that subsequent injury which prematurely ended his career, just imagine the matches he could have had with the likes of Angle, Lesnar and even rematches with HBK. Austin is so under rated when it comes to his work between the ropes, he was a technician who adapted to cover up for his injuries, his in-ring intelligence was his biggest strength.
 
Just had to take a moment to acknowledge the BEST Wrestler in the world.

View attachment 95137

The most appropriate picture I could find of the BEST Wrestler in the world right now, how apt that he is holding the greatest and most prestigious title in the history of pro wrestling.

For 6 years running he has been in the top 5 best P4P that is just insane and that too when you factor he had extended runs in almost every territory despite being in the twilight of his career given that your first 10 years or so tend to be your prime.
 
John Morrison has signed for WWE.

Nice to have him back, he has had great runs outside the E since he left especially as part of Lucha Underground; a very creative and versatile performer. At one point I actually wanted to see HBK v Morrison at a Mania, unfortunately WWE did drop the ball with him and John didn't stay around long enough to see how things would turn out.
 
Nice to have him back, he has had great runs outside the E since he left especially as part of Lucha Underground; a very creative and versatile performer. At one point I actually wanted to see HBK v Morrison at a Mania, unfortunately WWE did drop the ball with him and John didn't stay around long enough to see how things would turn out.

Moving away was the best thing for his career as WWE were never going to use him properly. He has gone away and is now a much bigger deal so WWE have to use him correctly. Heard he was considering going into Hollywood, so if he is signing for WWE they must have had something great on offer for him.
 
Moving away was the best thing for his career as WWE were never going to use him properly. He has gone away and is now a much bigger deal so WWE have to use him correctly. Heard he was considering going into Hollywood, so if he is signing for WWE they must have had something great on offer for him.

I mean he didn't have the worst run, won majority of the mid card championships and tag titles, worked the upper-mid card, found himself in engaging feuds and from time to time tussled with main-eventer's, but that feeling of him being lost in the shuffle comes from the E not utilising his main-event potential, things have changed a lot since then and here's hoping he is given much better treatment. However, I fear he will be used more like a Roode who is also a very talented all round performer himself but a seasoned vet at this stage, John's age might play against him; AJ Styles in the anamoly in this scenario which makes his run even more special because his age didn't matter to Vince after his performances from the word go and especially those first title opportunities on PPV vs Reigns when the big dawg had a bit of heat on his positioning as well.

In other news Punk had a try out for a Fox Produced WWE show interestingly:

https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/...-293406?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
 

Who is going to argue with the guy who invented Dave's star rating system itself and Jim is best mates with Meltzer, he has every reason to put his shtick over but he speaks the truth, Omega is the most over-hyped IWC goof in history and that one match in particular is excessively over hyped by niche anti-WWE hipster smarks predominately, modern raslin matches are like watching WWE 2K simulations and working great in-ring workers repeatedly in a territory that doesn't limit what you can do over doesn't prove nothing as we can see from the clear struggles in North America.
 
STARS IN THEIR EYES--FSM#138

This month's column is the result of yet another offhand remark by the erstwhile editor of this fine publication, when referencing the fact that the internet recently flipped it's collective wig over the first-ever "6 star match" as rated by Dave Meltzer, noted wrestling observer. Our fearless leader remarked that I might have something to say about that, noting that I at least ought to have some input since--for better or worse--I invented the cockamamie scale to begin with.

Now, before you, the dear reader, start thinking that I'm veering off into Russo territory--"I invented air, water and the attitude era"--I should admit that just like all great moments of epiphany, mine was completely inadvertent and meant as a joke. It's been recounted many times over the years, and verified by Meltzer himself for you remaining doubting Thomases. But just to get it over with....

The year was 1979. One of my best friends in Louisville, Norman Dooley--affectionately nicknamed "Weasel" for his pale complexion and resemblence to a skinny John Denver--had taken up compiling the results of Louisville-area matches and sending them out, accompanied by arena programs & clippings, via US mail in a several-page report titled "Weasel's World of Wrestling". These early "sheets", so-called because they were sheets of paper from a copy machine, went out to his penpals across America. Those correspondents, comprised of a lot of the few thousand truly "smart" fans and reporters in the country, would then do the same with news of the matches in their area and send them back. This is how all of us used to hear about other territories and build our wrestling collections in the pre-internet and videotape days.

Going further than just reporting the results, Norman had started giving play-by-play descriptions of many of the main events and better matches, and then started throwing in his opinions on which matches and wrestlers were the best on the shows. Speaking to him on the phone one night, I was flipping through the TV Guide while he was reading me his report on Sam Muchnick's most recent major event in St. Louis--he used to attend as many cards in the Kiel Auditorium as he could and became an ardent Ric Flair and Bruiser Brody admirer--and I made what I thought was an offhand joke.

"Weasel, with the detail you're going into and the critiques you're giving, you ought to give the matches star ratings like they do for the movies in the TV Guide."

He loved it, and started the next week. Some of his correspondents picked it up and began doing the same almost immediately, and in time one of them was Dave Meltzer.

The scale stood at 4 stars until March 23, 1981, when we saw Jerry Lawler's match with Terry Funk in Memphis' Mid-South Coliseum. For excitement, intensity of live atmosphere, and aura of violence alongside great work and crowd response, this bout was the greatest spectacle of a wrestling match we had ever seen, and we agreed to award it the first-ever 5 stars. This was the match that broke the scale and became the "greatest wrestling match that has ever been held" to that point in time on the official scale.

Except the scale is in the eye of the beholder.

Now, when you consider that I had probably seen four thousand live matches by the time we saw Lawler vs. Funk, Norman had seen at least half that many, and we watched tape of every territory in the country at that time plus both Baba and Inoki's TV shows weekly, it IS fairly impressive that we liked that match better than anything else we had seen to that point. Being there live for one of Funk's most incredible performances as a psychopath, all the blood and the sight of the horrified women in the front row climbing the backs of their chairs played a big part. It's also fair to say that our opinions were "learned" opinions. We knew what big matches were happening in wrestling and we critiqued them based on how we liked them. Just like the movie critics. That didn't mean it was fact to everyone--just like the movie critics.

It's easier to critique movies than live performances of what are--or are supposed to be, at least--purported to the public to be legitimate sporting events. There have been film schools discussing cinematic theory for nearly a hundred years. It's one of the most studied, researched, discussed and debated fields in all of entertainment. A lot of people STILL disagree with the major film critics. I HATE 2001: A Space Oddysey, and so does Stacey, and the special effects audio makes Harley Quinn leave the room. It's a "4 star classic." Yet one of the funniest films ever made--in my opinion--a Quentin Tarantino/Robert Rodriguez/others anthology from 1995 called "Four Rooms", got TWO BLOODY STARS! But I digress....

It really just comes down to opinion, but I find by reading the internet these days that just like every movie fan who buys a ticket can now publish his reviews and become a critic, every wrestling fan who buys a ticket can now publish his match ratings. I'm also finding that there was a reason why Siskel and Ebert got paid millions to do their reviews on TV and others are broadcasting to 73 people on their YouTube channel. And the parameters of the "star" rating system in wrestling have changed an awful lot too--now, if the action looks like it came from a video game or a 70's Kung Fu movie, that's apparently replaced the horrified women on the criteria list.

I understand why people got hooked on the star system. It's human nature to desire a way to quantify, or evaluate things, especially things you like. It's also human nature to disagree and have different tastes. So, now that I've been tolerant, and gentle with your feelings, I'll tell you why my opinion means a lot more than yours does.

Just like Siskel and Ebert had seen thousands of movies, and knew them inside and out, I've seen tens of thousands of wrestling matches spread over five different decades. I've participated in the industry as a performer, promoter and matchmaker for every major company in the last 30 years. Plus, I invented the damn scale to begin with, so that right there should enshrine me in the wrestling critic Hall of Fame and give my opinion instant credibility. So let me tell you what a REAL "Five Star Match" is from the standpoint of one of the two people--Weasel being unavailable for comment--that invented this whole stupid thing to begin with. Because if we're going to take it this seriously, we should at least know what the original rules were.

There has never been a "perfect" match--there has always got to be some flaw somewhere. But in my thought process for "rating" a match, criteria would include it being a match that would be exciting from an action standpoint, but completely lacking in any "holes" or moments of obvious co-operation or "working" that expose it as ********, a match that told a great story in the ring, one that the fans could follow and believe in between two stars that are over with the audience they're in front of, that drew a good crowd, had a great finish, got tremendous crowd response, that was a turning point in a program, a memorable angle or a momentous climax to a feud. All those things are important in a truly great match.

A match seen live as opposed to television always has the advantage in getting a "good rating" because crowd energy influences our perceptions. If you're in the middle of 10,000 fans going ******* for something, it feels more exciting to you than if you're watching a video of a two-week old pay-per-view, or worse still a one-camera-in-the-stands shoot from the territories in the 80's. The more removed you are from the live energy of a wrestling match, the more the aura of the crowd energy and the wrestlers' live charisma is diminished. But even then, truly great bouts transcend the TV screen.

Having said that, many of my own personal five star matches are ones I've seen live, so early 80's Memphis and late 80's NWA is featured prominently, but I understand a longtime Northeastern US fan putting the famous Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson Alley Fight at the top of their list--or a devoted World Class fan leading with one of the famous FreeBirds vs. Von Erich brawls in Texas. These and other famous territory-eras clashes are bouts that were great when they happened and have stood the test of time due to the era of videotape. All the bouts on my personal list of the best 5 star matches I've ever seen--compiled scientifically off the top of my head--are available to be seen either on YouTube or the Network if you want to play along at home.

After the 1981 Lawler-Funk bout, I think the very next 5 star award went to Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid from January 1, 1982 in Japan. Seeing this bout on tape was a mindblower, and for those who think I don't like "high-spots and flying", here's an example of two guys who changed the game but did it right. Even with some over-the-top acrobatics, the insane agility of Sayama and the intensity and aura of violence of Billington managed to make this match still look like a contest. The early MMA-style hybrid of matwrestling, shootfighting, lucha and martial arts brought the lighter weight guys to prominence for the first time. Neither Kid nor the Tiger ever lost sight of making their matches contests, and the aura of realism they were able to project combined with their athletic talent being so far ahead of the rest ushered in a new era, but one where neither of these guys have ever really been matched. Dynamite, obviously, was also a cautionary tale that few since have heeded, his style and bumps relegating him to a wheelchair early in life.

Another set of Memphis classics was the series between Lawler and Dutch Mantell in 1982. Even with the booking hurdle of both being babyfaces to overcome, they not only put together a rivalry over who was #1 and who was #2 that drew money but also saw both men keep their fans, and neither "switching heel" during the feud. The climactic Barbed Wire match in Memphis on March 29, 1982 was the best of all, a live-action, thirty minute "Rocky" fight scene done in one take before thousands of eyewitnesses. Now, this wasn't the "barbed wire" rules of an ECW or hardcore promotion, this match merely had wire wrapped around the posts to keep both men in. They barely touched it except in big spots to maximum effect with minimum exposure to danger. It caused some bleeding, so it did it's job, but the rest was up to the talent. They staged a fight inside the ring that had the fans on a dramatic rollercoaster, and plenty of "live rounds" were flying. Since neither man was a heel, both had to remain strong, so they literally beat each other to their knees before the unexpected finish. Late in the match, Lawler and Mantell's trading--and selling--of punches back and forth is amazing and an incredibly display of timing and body language.

The next Lawler bout to become an instant classic was the Loser Leaves Town match between he and Bill "Superstar" Dundee on June 6, 1983 at the Mid-South Coliseum. Dundee had turned heel earlier in the Spring after a six-year run as the #2 babyface, and they reprised their legendary rivalry from the summer of 1977. That year, with Dundee the face and Lawler the heel, they had met in the Coliseum main event a staggering ELEVEN weeks in a row, drawing a total of over 95,000 fans with two complete sellouts and an average of 9000 per show.

This was a much shorter program--just two weeks, a setup match where Dundee beat Lawler in defense of the Southern Title, in order to come back the following week with everything on the line, winner to become Southern Champion, loser to leave Memphis. Dundee WAS leaving town--after losing the Memphis book in a power play between Lawler and Jerry Jarrett, he had taken a booking job in Georgia with Ole Anderson, so they had to rush it up.

This was a completely different match than the wild and bloody Lawler-Funk brawl or the war of attrition featured in the Mantell Barbed Wire match. It was a bout where there were plenty of fists thrown and stiff shots exchanged, but it also featured each man trying to dominate the other wrestling-wise, playing on their well-known, real-life rivalry for the previous six years to be the top star in the Memphis area. And they both knew how to think up and execute ways for each's best moves to shine. Lawler's genius as a ring general and status as one of the top workers and bump takers in the sport at this time was well-known, but Dundee shines even more here as a top worker with a style that was completely unique and different even then, and now looks as if it comes from another planet when viewed by today's eyes. There are several spots and sequences in this match that I don't think anyone in wrestling today could pull off, and it remains one of the most exciting yet believable one-on-one fights I've ever seen in a wrestling ring.

If you want to see the gold standard of in-ring performance in the sport of professional wrestling in the 1980's, and the measuring stick of greatness in the "NWA World Title match" style of wrestling, there are 6 matches I can recommend to you. The 1989 Trilogy with Ricky Steamboat is an obvious pick, as at Wrestlewar in February, on TBS for the Clash of Champions in April, and back on Pay-Per-View in May in Nashville for the blowoff and the angle with Funk, they made complete magic. I felt after the third match in Nashville that in all their bouts they had gone as far as wrestling could possibly go to be "entertaining" and still look real--any less, and it wouldn't have been as exciting, any more and it would have crossed the line of there being obvious cooperation. These matches were so good I'm not sure I was wrong.

But there is another "trilogy" that most overlook from the pre-PPV era which was almost as good. Flair faced Barry Windham hundreds of times in house show matches in the 1980's, but three that luckily exist on video were captured because they were on high-profile events. On Valentine's Day 1986 they met in Orlando at Battle of the Belts 2, having a great match marred by an anti-climactic countout finish, as they had been set to go an hour but the live TV show ran long, and having only 45:00 left they had to improvise. They clashed again on the January 20, 1987 edition of NWA Worldwide and had a classic that was the only match featured on the one hour TV show. Finally, they met for the NWA Title in the main event of night 2 of the Crockett Cup Tag Team Tournament in Baltimore on April 11, 1987.

Like Steamboat, Windham was a perfect foe for Flair, because he could go for long periods at Flair's top pace, something most athletes couldn't do, and he was so smooth as a worker that Flair could call almost anything at any time without warning, and it still came off fairly seamlessly. Barry exhibits agility that at times crosses into balletic grace for a man that big, yet sells like a junior heavyweight to get sympathy. In these matches, a point of great pride between Ric, Barry and Steamer was how deep into the match and after how hard a pace they could still execute the double bridge spot. This is "World Title Match" style pro wrestling at it's best.

I know everyone is expecting me to put a bunch of Midnight Express matches on the list, but I will resist ruining my credibility by praising something I was involved in, or giving myself "5 stars." If you want to know my favorite Midnight matches out there, they would be Midnight vs. Rock & Roll in Charlotte April 12, 1986 with me hung in the cage (the edited version of which is on the Express DVD at jimcornette.com), Midnight vs. Fantastics at Clash of Champions 1 in Greensboro March 27, 1988, Midnight vs. Rock & Roll Wrestlewar 90 in Greensboro, and Midnight vs. Southern Boys Great American Bash 90 in Baltimore, among many others--but I digress.

With the 1980's covered, lest you think I don't like anything within the last 30 years, let's move up a decade. My favorite WWF match of the 1990's has always been the classic I Quit confrontation between Bret Hart and Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 13 in Chicago in 1997. Like Lawler and Mantell's babyface match, Hart and Austin had an even tougher booking hurdle--the tricky, and rare "double-turn", where by the finish the two men have completely switched sides from face to heel and vice versa. They put together a classic that arguably was the most important match in history, as it kicked "Stone Cold" into the stratosphere as the hottest star in the sport. These are two excellent workers having a psychologically flawless match, and the crowd with it the whole way.

Let's hop into the 21st century. When I saw Davey Richards face Tyler Black (Seth Rollins) at the Ring of Honor iPPV in Toronto in June 2010, I came away with the same feeling I had when I'd seen Flair vs. Steamboat--they were hitting each other hard but--mostly--safely, performing fairly intricate **** at a high level that allowed you to suspend your disbelief, had a good grasp of timing for guys with that level of experience, both were athletic standouts over with the crowd as individuals, and you could tell Tyler was a future "movie star level" talent. They had the live crowd going berserk. I said in a number of places that I felt it was the gold standard of in-ring performance at that time in the business. Yes, they needed to sell some things a little longer, evaluate their psychology in a few spots or sometimes do less overall, but you can always do less as you get experience. The hard part is finding somebody that can do it at all. This was a really good example of what I hoped would get over about Ring of Honor--a serious, hard-hitting hybrid of pro wrestling, MMA and other combat sports with young wrestlers that had not been on TV in major roles for any "entertainment" wrestling companies. That style actually does draw money these days, it's just called the UFC.

And it's inconvenient for all the fans of video game wrestling who like to complain that I don't like ANYTHING "new" in wrestling or how it's "evolved", but those who follow my weekly podcast will know that I had effusive praise for several recent Revival matches in NXT, culminating with my review of their latest, 2 out of 3 fall match with Tomasso Ciampa and Johnny Gargano where I wondered if they had just, indeed, HAD a perfect wrestling match. The ebbs and flows of the action were eaten up by the crowd, and bell to bell it was the best tag team match I have seen in years. The Revival have been consistent with big show matches over the past year as far as stealing the show they're on.

What do all these matches and wrestlers have in common? The guys involved went in and treated their matches and business seriously, gave it their all in the ring, executed what they wanted to do at a high level to an appreciative and excited crowd and made money doing it. They furthered their angles or programs, got themselves over with the fans as stars and portrayed our sport as something to be looked at appreciatively or treated with a level of respect.

They didn't wrestle a grade school kid or the invisible man, or put together a series of gymnastics routines to show off cool video game moves, or have a "comedy" match or do something else to diminish the sport of wrestling as something silly, or that anyone can perform, regardless of talent or athletic ability. They didn't give people the impression that this was something to be laughed at or not taken seriously. And most of all, they didn't give the impression of two guys that look like they're still in high school trying to execute a bunch of cool moves so everyone would rave about the quality of their match.

So, you ask, where is Kenny Omega vs. Okada, the new "greatest match of all time", on my list? Do I give it SIX stars, as Dave famously did, or as many on the internet did? I know weed is legal in California, but...no. It ain't there.

I know I'm biased against Omega. For the uninitiated, the alleged best wrestler in the world once wrestled competitive matches in Japan--in front of fans, and on video--with a nine year old girl, and a--legitimate--blowup sex doll. A recent video has surfaced of him actually wrestling someone in what looks like the man's front yard, complete with maneuvers off a tree trunk. As far as I'm concerned, Omega is disqualified from my consideration for anything, even if he discovered a cure for cancer and then brought Lou Thesz back from the grave and stretched him. But if you want to, watch these matches, then watch that one. They're two different animals.

If you like Omega's matches, or the current video-game style in general, that's fine, they're great athletic spectacles. Rate them five stars. Just don't say 5 star wrestling matches. They have morphed from wrestling matches into performances of wrestling moves.

The most important part, to me, of that list of criteria for great matches is when the wrestlers are able to keep the aura of conflict while still being exciting--not replicating intricate video game moves for the enjoyment of the segment of critics who are going to evaluate the actual execution of said moves while not caring about the psychology behind them or the vibe of realism and charisma the talent may or may not be able to give off to the arena, which is not only what really gets guys over but what really draws money.

Sure, that's just my opinion. But as I've already explained, my opinion means more than yours does. Whaddaya gonna do? Argue with the guy that invented the scale?


https://jimcornette.com/fighting-spirit/stars-their-eyes-fsm138
 

Who is going to argue with the guy who invented Dave's star rating system itself and Jim is best mates with Meltzer, he has every reason to put his shtick over but he speaks the truth, Omega is the most over-hyped IWC goof in history and that one match in particular is excessively over hyped by niche anti-WWE hipster smarks predominately, modern raslin matches are like watching WWE 2K simulations and working great in-ring workers repeatedly in a territory that doesn't limit what you can do over doesn't prove nothing as we can see from the clear struggles in North America.

I dont watch much wrestling these days but spot on, Omega is terrible to watch, as are the rest of the wrestling hipsters.
 
Just had to take a moment to acknowledge the BEST Wrestler in the world.

View attachment 95137

The most appropriate picture I could find of the BEST Wrestler in the world right now, how apt that he is holding the greatest and most prestigious title in the history of pro wrestling.
That's not a picture of Okada.

AJ isn't even top 20 atm, he's had a shockingly bad year.
 
Tyson Fury v Braun Strowman: Heavyweight boxer clashes with WWE wrestler

Forget Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury's next opponent could be WWE wrestler Braun Strowman.

Confused?

Well, the undefeated British heavyweight is continuing his charm offensive in the United States after September's points win over Otto Wallin in Las Vegas.

On Monday night the 'The Gypsy King' appeared on WWE Raw in California to continue his "beef" with Strowman - known as 'The Monster Among Men' - and sparked a huge "brawl".

They confronted each other in the ring, before a "heated exchange" ended in the pair being separated by security. But their scuffle continued, with Strowman's fellow wrestlers having to step in to split them up in classic sports entertainment style.

The "bad blood" between the pair stems from Friday's SmackDown event.

Fury sat front row with his family and "took exception" when Strowman sent fellow wrestler Dolph Ziggler crashing towards him.

Lineal heavyweight champion Fury is set to face WBC champion Wilder in a rematch in February, but is currently unable to train because of the severe cuts he suffered against Wallin, when he needed more than 40 stitches.

There are now reports he could face Strowman in a wrestling match in Saudi Arabia later this month.

And with his showman swagger and gift of the gab, 6ft 9in Fury looks readymade to take the wrestling world by storm.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/49970087
 
[MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Do you catch the episodes from last week ?

I actually tuned into debut AEW show, the show was filled from top to bottom with wrestling but there were generally no promos; it may be a smart move if there is a lack of mic workers outside the WWE names who give their characters a high level of emphasis. Anyway, they opened the card with some chump calling himself the best ever, the guys weighed about 10 lb and proceeded to botch multiple times which put me off and I had to skip to the finish. The video package prior to the match was good however.

MJF is one hell of a talent, they had him face some bloke who was only there because he was friends with the bucks; they actually said this on-air I couldn't believe my ears, any ways that ***** climbed the top rope and slipped :))) he wasn't very active as an in-ring performer so all round it was just awful but MJF made the best he could out of it

After the god awful starts, they came back quite well with the Neville v Page match; it was a great all round old-school raslin match with high levels of IQ on display, loved the pacing and they knew when to go for the home run; Neville came off like a star and Page being defeated didn't hurt him, I like what he brings to the table as a character on paper and he can certainly work, don't know if he can cut any promos but I'd like to see him talk

The womens match was solid except there is no chance in hell you could ever suspend your disbelief in seeing a woman from the atomweight division defeat a heavyweight, that was absolutely shocking; she looks like a 10 year old, and it all made sense at the end; Kenny comes out to save the day during the post match attack, clearly he has some sort of a weird affiliation with that woman, she may well have been the 9 year old he wrestled in Japan, but all round it was shocking to say the least, they had the chance to advocate Nyla Rose as a big deal but instead went with a rasler who would pass out if you let out some gas, again nepotism at the highest level; it is going to be the biggest issue with AEW when all these idiots including Omega/Bucks keep doing their friends favours.

The main-event was a typical over-booked WCW style main event with some surprised appearance at the end, it was solid overall; the worst bit was when Kenny entered the match, my goodness if the Ultimate Warrior was reborn in the modern era then he would be Kenny, the exaggerated facial expressions, premeditated taunting, finger pointing, poking etc he's such a big child in a mans body, the guy is a damn good and that style so fake and not like the NA audience was eating up any of his shtick either, his in-ring IQ is horrendous; when Ambrose turned up he was acting like no one is even behind him and was crouching on the floor as if he were taking some dump, staying there way too long I have no idea what the hell was wrong with him, it amazes me how some defend this mediocre rasler at best, anyway he got taken out by Ambrose and then the match continued.

Overall it was a solid debut for AEW, on the production side of things very few mistakes and I liked the set / presentation.

As far as the wrestling is concerned NXT was superior on every level, I liked the segment here and there to mix things up in between; the first half hour had no advertisements during the epic battle between former UFC fighter Matt Riddle and Adam Cole; the style is not my cup of tea but it is a bit of a guilty pleasure because their execution is beautiful and the fundamentals are given respect, but as their were no adds during this match they hurt the show of the flow in the shows remainder, the main-event was a solid tag team match, I really enjoyed the finishing stretch especially. That Jap girl had a solid encounter with Mia Yim, her finisher is incredible because of its low tragectory increasing the impact; they have repackaged her as some kind of psychopathic heel I love it. I didn't enjoy Bazzler v Candice as much, mainly because I don't buy Candice as a legit contender; it was solid and am glad Bazzler won but no more Candice please. NXT will be boosted by the returns of Balor and Ciampa moving forward.

I feel the best show from last week was Smackdown! oh my god, the set and production in general from a technical stand point was absolutely outstanding, it is the best I have ever seen and I am not mincing my words, they clearly spent a lot of money thanks to the FOX deal and it came off like a really big deal, loved the new intro as well, it was just so awesome and I look forward to Friday nights just like the good old days. They opened with a hot segment featuring The Rock before moving to tag action between some of the best womens raslers on the planet, so complete as all round performers and tremendous to watch, you don't look at these and see any difference in comparison to the men, it reminds me a little of the womens UFC division which is packed, whilst compared to other combat sports you don't always get that, the same can be said here because WWE territory is among a few where you genuinly have female performers that can go and are believable unlike Rhio for gods sake :facepalm: anyway the tag match was incredible and it had great energy/flow. Nak/Rollins was enjoyable while it lasted but the spot was used more to build the hell in a cell match, the ladder match between Shane/KO was epic and the 6 man tag was solid although nothing special, but it was very surreal to see Tyson Fury!

The main event segment just blowed everything out the water with the debut of Cain after Lesnar rightfully squashed Kofi like a bug!

I'd say from last week, Smackdown overall was my most enjoyable show
 
Tyson Fury v Braun Strowman: Heavyweight boxer clashes with WWE wrestler

Forget Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury's next opponent could be WWE wrestler Braun Strowman.

Confused?

Well, the undefeated British heavyweight is continuing his charm offensive in the United States after September's points win over Otto Wallin in Las Vegas.

On Monday night the 'The Gypsy King' appeared on WWE Raw in California to continue his "beef" with Strowman - known as 'The Monster Among Men' - and sparked a huge "brawl".

They confronted each other in the ring, before a "heated exchange" ended in the pair being separated by security. But their scuffle continued, with Strowman's fellow wrestlers having to step in to split them up in classic sports entertainment style.

The "bad blood" between the pair stems from Friday's SmackDown event.

Fury sat front row with his family and "took exception" when Strowman sent fellow wrestler Dolph Ziggler crashing towards him.

Lineal heavyweight champion Fury is set to face WBC champion Wilder in a rematch in February, but is currently unable to train because of the severe cuts he suffered against Wallin, when he needed more than 40 stitches.

There are now reports he could face Strowman in a wrestling match in Saudi Arabia later this month.

And with his showman swagger and gift of the gab, 6ft 9in Fury looks readymade to take the wrestling world by storm.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/49970087

Just hope he doesn't get injured before the Wilder fight! but this is great exposure for Fury and who knows maybe he can do this more often in the future he is a perfect fit!
 
[MENTION=141804]QalandarFan[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]

Do you catch the episodes from last week ?

I actually tuned into debut AEW show, the show was filled from top to bottom with wrestling but there were generally no promos; it may be a smart move if there is a lack of mic workers outside the WWE names who give their characters a high level of emphasis. Anyway, they opened the card with some chump calling himself the best ever, the guys weighed about 10 lb and proceeded to botch multiple times which put me off and I had to skip to the finish. The video package prior to the match was good however.

MJF is one hell of a talent, they had him face some bloke who was only there because he was friends with the bucks; they actually said this on-air I couldn't believe my ears, any ways that ***** climbed the top rope and slipped :))) he wasn't very active as an in-ring performer so all round it was just awful but MJF made the best he could out of it

After the god awful starts, they came back quite well with the Neville v Page match; it was a great all round old-school raslin match with high levels of IQ on display, loved the pacing and they knew when to go for the home run; Neville came off like a star and Page being defeated didn't hurt him, I like what he brings to the table as a character on paper and he can certainly work, don't know if he can cut any promos but I'd like to see him talk

The womens match was solid except there is no chance in hell you could ever suspend your disbelief in seeing a woman from the atomweight division defeat a heavyweight, that was absolutely shocking; she looks like a 10 year old, and it all made sense at the end; Kenny comes out to save the day during the post match attack, clearly he has some sort of a weird affiliation with that woman, she may well have been the 9 year old he wrestled in Japan, but all round it was shocking to say the least, they had the chance to advocate Nyla Rose as a big deal but instead went with a rasler who would pass out if you let out some gas, again nepotism at the highest level; it is going to be the biggest issue with AEW when all these idiots including Omega/Bucks keep doing their friends favours.

The main-event was a typical over-booked WCW style main event with some surprised appearance at the end, it was solid overall; the worst bit was when Kenny entered the match, my goodness if the Ultimate Warrior was reborn in the modern era then he would be Kenny, the exaggerated facial expressions, premeditated taunting, finger pointing, poking etc he's such a big child in a mans body, the guy is a damn good and that style so fake and not like the NA audience was eating up any of his shtick either, his in-ring IQ is horrendous; when Ambrose turned up he was acting like no one is even behind him and was crouching on the floor as if he were taking some dump, staying there way too long I have no idea what the hell was wrong with him, it amazes me how some defend this mediocre rasler at best, anyway he got taken out by Ambrose and then the match continued.

Overall it was a solid debut for AEW, on the production side of things very few mistakes and I liked the set / presentation.

As far as the wrestling is concerned NXT was superior on every level, I liked the segment here and there to mix things up in between; the first half hour had no advertisements during the epic battle between former UFC fighter Matt Riddle and Adam Cole; the style is not my cup of tea but it is a bit of a guilty pleasure because their execution is beautiful and the fundamentals are given respect, but as their were no adds during this match they hurt the show of the flow in the shows remainder, the main-event was a solid tag team match, I really enjoyed the finishing stretch especially. That Jap girl had a solid encounter with Mia Yim, her finisher is incredible because of its low tragectory increasing the impact; they have repackaged her as some kind of psychopathic heel I love it. I didn't enjoy Bazzler v Candice as much, mainly because I don't buy Candice as a legit contender; it was solid and am glad Bazzler won but no more Candice please. NXT will be boosted by the returns of Balor and Ciampa moving forward.

I feel the best show from last week was Smackdown! oh my god, the set and production in general from a technical stand point was absolutely outstanding, it is the best I have ever seen and I am not mincing my words, they clearly spent a lot of money thanks to the FOX deal and it came off like a really big deal, loved the new intro as well, it was just so awesome and I look forward to Friday nights just like the good old days. They opened with a hot segment featuring The Rock before moving to tag action between some of the best womens raslers on the planet, so complete as all round performers and tremendous to watch, you don't look at these and see any difference in comparison to the men, it reminds me a little of the womens UFC division which is packed, whilst compared to other combat sports you don't always get that, the same can be said here because WWE territory is among a few where you genuinly have female performers that can go and are believable unlike Rhio for gods sake :facepalm: anyway the tag match was incredible and it had great energy/flow. Nak/Rollins was enjoyable while it lasted but the spot was used more to build the hell in a cell match, the ladder match between Shane/KO was epic and the 6 man tag was solid although nothing special, but it was very surreal to see Tyson Fury!

The main event segment just blowed everything out the water with the debut of Cain after Lesnar rightfully squashed Kofi like a bug!

I'd say from last week, Smackdown overall was my most enjoyable show

Didn't watch AEW and don't really plan on watching it but man Smackdown was fun I was going to talk about it on the thread but didn't end up having the time. Smackdown was amazing best WWE show in a while.

It was so great watching The Rock come back to WWE in like 3 years. The Rock is an icon in the whole world and combine him with the major debut of WWE on Fox and boom they hit 4 million viewers! Raw on the other hand had 2.3 million yesterday. I'm pretty sure it was also the most watched thing on TV aside from NFL all week on fox too! Just the whole show from the The Rock to the Brock Lesnar / Cain Velasquez angle was great and thoroughly enjoyable! Also it's great to get Smackdown back up on Fridays! It will be interesting to see where this Brock/Cain angle goes from here on out but such an angle was certainly required after this big show.

Hell in a Cell was also great Sasha/Becky was epic and the Roman Bryan tag match followed up keeping up the match quality. The whole show was solid except for the freaking main event. :facepalm: The ending for Hell in a Cell was absolute garbage, what a waste of momentum. :facepalm: Actually pissing me the f off how tf they booked that match. If you didn't want to take the title off Seth why in the world would you book the f'in match!!!!!
 
A pair of pugilistic big men will clash in a cross over of combat sports as former boxing champion Tyson Fury fights Braun Strowman in Saudi Arabia later this month.

Fury will make the brief switch to professional wrestling when he fights on a World Wrestling Entertainment Inc. (WWE) card in Saudi Arabia on October 31.

"How honoured I am to be here and be involved in such a massive event in Saudi Arabia. It’s a fantastic opportunity for me," Fury said at a news conference in Las Vegas, Nevada on Friday.

Fury made a ringside appearance at WWE Smackdown last Friday where he was confronted by Strowman.

Fury, who is preparing for a rematch with World Boxing Council heavyweight champion Deontay Wilder next year, said performing in the WWE has long been dream of his. In December, Fury got off the canvas to earn a draw with Wilder.

"This is something I've always dreamed of. I am lifelong WWE fan and this is a fantastic opportunity for me," Fury said.

"When I go to Saudi, I am still going to be undefeated, I am going to knock Braun Strowman out. He's meeting a guy who has the best hands in boxing. He don't want none of these hands."

Strowman said he will have the upper hand when Fury makes his wrestling debut.

"Tyson heed my warning. In WWE we don't wear gloves and you are coming into my world," Strowman said.

https://www.afp.com/en/news/824/boxer-fury-make-pro-wrestling-debut-saudi-arabia-doc-1lc5px1
 
Didn't watch AEW and don't really plan on watching it but man Smackdown was fun I was going to talk about it on the thread but didn't end up having the time. Smackdown was amazing best WWE show in a while.

It was so great watching The Rock come back to WWE in like 3 years. The Rock is an icon in the whole world and combine him with the major debut of WWE on Fox and boom they hit 4 million viewers! Raw on the other hand had 2.3 million yesterday. I'm pretty sure it was also the most watched thing on TV aside from NFL all week on fox too! Just the whole show from the The Rock to the Brock Lesnar / Cain Velasquez angle was great and thoroughly enjoyable! Also it's great to get Smackdown back up on Fridays! It will be interesting to see where this Brock/Cain angle goes from here on out but such an angle was certainly required after this big show.

Hell in a Cell was also great Sasha/Becky was epic and the Roman Bryan tag match followed up keeping up the match quality. The whole show was solid except for the freaking main event. :facepalm: The ending for Hell in a Cell was absolute garbage, what a waste of momentum. :facepalm: Actually pissing me the f off how tf they booked that match. If you didn't want to take the title off Seth why in the world would you book the f'in match!!!!!

There is so much wrestling on right now! exciting times, am not sure how am going to keep up with everything in NA territory but am going to try to. Yes, The Rock can still work! he will have one more program I reckon, most likely against Reigns. Just like the good ol days! in the UK we'd either stay up or watch the show early on a Saturday morning, Smackdown from top to bottom is looking really good right now, many have their view on the Crown Jewel PPV but without that sweet saudi money we wouldn't get getting these huge matches and for me the start times are so much nicer when it comes to the live action.

HIAC was excellent but the main event just ruins all the hard work earlier, they shouldn't have booked that match unless The Fiend was going over; unfortunately the feud continues, not sure how I feel about that, if The Fiend is going over then it is fine but I highly doubt that is going to happen, it's almost like whenever Bray gets over they desperately try to ruin his profile :facepalm: he is a unique performer and should be treated and booked in the same vein as a Taker or Sting.
 
This week of wrestling was so stacked from RAW, Smackdown, AEW, NXT and NWA Powerr; I thoroughly enjoyed NWA power more then anything; my most enjoyable hour of wrestling in a long long time when it comes to TV based episodes.

As far as AEW is concerned, it was a very solid show overall; the biggest weaknesses where Rhio oh my god just take that strap from her, literally is stinking the division they are trying to build, no one can remotely take such a champion seriously that weighs 2lb and her offence just lacks any kind of impact it's just pathetic on so many levels, but thanks to Kenny she is in that spot. Speaking of Kenny he formed the other part of what I found very weak about the show, but being the goof he is am hardly surprised; people speak of his ability to "tell a story" apparently, where the hell was his ring IQ just showing up for a confrontation against Ambrose holding a broom stick and baseball bat, then handing the baseball bat to Ambrose so he could beat him up :))) I am not joking people just see the footage for yourself, what an absolute goof lmao

Ignoring him the show opened with a hot tag team spot fest between the bucks and the two black dudes that remind me of street profits as their gimmicks are similar; anyway it is what it is when it comes to these multi tag team matches, it was executed fine and they did a bunch of moves repeatedly, can't really fault it as this is what smark fans and the crowd enjoyed. There was a bloke called havoc who fought Darby Allin, I guessed they were trying to get Allin over but chose the wrong guy for him to work with because Havoc is just bloody awful, Allin didn't come across bad at all however, he is sound, can sell and does a decent job staying in character; not sure about his finisher but might grow on me, seems silly at the moment.

Jericho introducing the inner circle was a great segment, they would face Adam Page and Goldust in the main-event, he has massive potential Page; he has a spagetti western influenced character and in the ring he can really go, but I want to here him talk and play it all up, show that intensity/desire and those southern style promos, the thing is when you look at history in NA you can't get over just by being a good worker, there are plenty of those around; but you need to connect with the audiences through your persona and for that you have to be able to talk, you look at Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Austin and Surfer Sting; these blokes played massive roles in the rise of their respective promotions and you have to connect that way, it has been one of the areas for improvement as far as AEW is concerned in general.

NXT on the other hand started out with a hot cruserweight championship match, the two worked well together, I've always loved Gulak's style, its plays into his gimmick perfectly and his ground work / ability to cut the ring off is terrific, allows his opponents to really thrive when it comes to building heat and the finishing stretch especially, the match had a great layout and Rush picked up the win. Next up we saw Rhea Ripley absolutely eviscerate Aliya, she is such a star and this is how you book the damn women! it's crazy the woman is so young, reminds me a little of Chyna, maybe not as strong but definitely can compare when it comes to being athletic.

There was a tag match between Brezango and a new team called forgotten sons, never really enjoyed this if am honest. Cameron grimes completely squashed Boa and that was pretty hilarious before he was interrupted by Dain.

Roderick Strong v Scott was a solid match, a lot of fun; I had not seen Scott perform before, he is very creative in the ring; not someone you come across often, he played of to Strong's strength who is very tremendous with his overall pacing and ring awareness. The post match angle saw Ciampa butt heads with the Undisputed Era who I believe are probably the best faction in wrestling right now, Dream also appeared to set up a NA title rematch in a few weeks.

There were some excellent vignettes to set up Priest/Dunne (persona of Priest is very intriguing) and also Keith Lee v Dijakovic (I don't know if these blokes are human but loved the importance they gave to their upcoming match next week and emphasised the intensity of their rivalry, when you have two heavyweights like this go all out and do the stuff which they normally shouldn't against lightweights I have no issues at all).

The main event was Walter / Kushida, I love the imperium faction from UK NXT is is excellent, anyway Kushudia is a tremendous talent clearly and he reminds me a little of Masato Tanaka, it was a solid match very good from the POV of modern standards which the crowd loved but am sorry but how can I take that midget go 50/50 with Walter ? :facepalm: not the best booking in my view at all but this what we have come to expect.

Anyway overall it was a great night for wrestling, if Wednesdays can keep this up we have a lot to look forward to
 
The highlights from RAW / SD were the Tyson Fury segment, Kabuki Warriors going over and complete Bayley turn, things which I didn't like were the non-finish to Reigns/Rollins as I was enjoying the match and the OC jobbing to New Day, but I guess AJ has personally requested not to work the upper-card as much as he did last year, it was one of the reasons he dropped the championship so he could spend more time with the family, at this stage he is playing the same role HBK did in his 40s which was to help elevate other members of the roster through his ring generalship and I guess not a bad way to use him and also keep him around at the same time. Black burying the Singh's on RAW was funny :)))
 
Moving forward am probably more likely to watch NWA Powerr consistently, you can catch it on youtube: the first episode aired on Tuesday:


I have kept banging on about giving your character emphasis and also cutting promos beyond wrestling, my god the NWA was almost like a fantasy dream coming to life; make no mistake it is no parody at all, they provided a modern take on the highly influential and critically acclaimed Crockett promotion during the studio era of wrestling, it's very clever from the NWA and this is how you stand out from the pack; it legit feels very fresh, creative and different; everything else you would see will be similar in one form or another but the NWA is one hell of an alternative and it goes back to the days when every aspect of the wrestling product was valued highly and given so much importance whilst maintaining legitimacy between the ropes.

The ring's used in the southern territories were 18x18 much smaller and they had done the same here which means performers need to display a high level of in-ring psychology given that you need to have a command over distance and be smarter when it comes to how the space is used, the hour went super quick and in-between the in-ring action with retro camera work we there were so many enjoyable post-match interviews and everyone seemed to deliver which I found shocking! in this day and age if you manage to get a few good segments with guys who can talk / connect with the audience it's a big win! the studio interviews came across so much better for me compared to what I usually see backstage and Eli Drake and Nick Aldis absolutely killed it on the microphone and delivered in the ring. No performer over-stayed their welcome and the main-event delivered. And as far as am concerned, the NWA world championship will always be THE championship in this business and the most prestigious no matter where it is defended or which promotion it is being defended under.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"I didn't bust my *** from coast to to coast and across four continents to do the J.O.B. In the A.T.L."<a href="https://twitter.com/RealNickAldis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RealNickAldis</a> on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NWAPowerrr?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NWAPowerrr</a><a href="https://t.co/KRs4DyDI4N">https://t.co/KRs4DyDI4N</a> <a href="https://t.co/I4IO376eKh">pic.twitter.com/I4IO376eKh</a></p>— NWA (@nwa) <a href="https://twitter.com/nwa/status/1182288504233046016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 10, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Moving forward am probably more likely to watch NWA Powerr consistently, you can catch it on youtube: the first episode aired on Tuesday:


I have kept banging on about giving your character emphasis and also cutting promos beyond wrestling, my god the NWA was almost like a fantasy dream coming to life; make no mistake it is no parody at all, they provided a modern take on the highly influential and critically acclaimed Crockett promotion during the studio era of wrestling, it's very clever from the NWA and this is how you stand out from the pack; it legit feels very fresh, creative and different; everything else you would see will be similar in one form or another but the NWA is one hell of an alternative and it goes back to the days when every aspect of the wrestling product was valued highly and given so much importance whilst maintaining legitimacy between the ropes.

The ring's used in the southern territories were 18x18 much smaller and they had done the same here which means performers need to display a high level of in-ring psychology given that you need to have a command over distance and be smarter when it comes to how the space is used, the hour went super quick and in-between the in-ring action with retro camera work we there were so many enjoyable post-match interviews and everyone seemed to deliver which I found shocking! in this day and age if you manage to get a few good segments with guys who can talk / connect with the audience it's a big win! the studio interviews came across so much better for me compared to what I usually see backstage and Eli Drake and Nick Aldis absolutely killed it on the microphone and delivered in the ring. No performer over-stayed their welcome and the main-event delivered. And as far as am concerned, the NWA world championship will always be THE championship in this business and the most prestigious no matter where it is defended or which promotion it is being defended under.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"I didn't bust my *** from coast to to coast and across four continents to do the J.O.B. In the A.T.L."<a href="https://twitter.com/RealNickAldis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RealNickAldis</a> on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NWAPowerrr?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NWAPowerrr</a><a href="https://t.co/KRs4DyDI4N">https://t.co/KRs4DyDI4N</a> <a href="https://t.co/I4IO376eKh">pic.twitter.com/I4IO376eKh</a></p>— NWA (@nwa) <a href="https://twitter.com/nwa/status/1182288504233046016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 10, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] you were more of a fan of the golden era but am sure you kept an eye on the waves territory wrestling was making in NA especially in the south, you can catch this series which started recently on youtube; there will be weekly episodes I believe and last an hour, this was the debut effort; very enjoyable, let me know what you think if you watch this.
 
AEW has been fantastic, one complaint is the lack of promos. Hopefully they start to do more.

Jericho is fantastic as usual, loving his work.

Definitely recommend checking out Lucha brothers vs Private Party. Match was awesome.

Lucha Brothers have fast become my favorite tag team and I'm not someone who usually cares about tag team wrestling and has favorite tag teams.
 
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It's cool to see AEW getting promoted during NBA games, they're also partnering with mainstream things like Rick and Morty

Rick-and-Morty-All-Elite-Cover.jpg
 
Cannot wait till WK.

Double champion will be crowned.

Okada vs Ibushi and likely Jay vs Naito, likely will result with Okada vs Naito and Naito getting his redemption. But a part of me still has tiny hope that Jay can make it to the Final and possibly pull off the upset even though the chances of that are extremely bleak.
 

Jesus Christ, never mind the mic break and humiliating P.R; what a horrendous promo, zero charisma, good bye and good night? :facepalm: what has come of the industry? in an era where we have the rise of LGBT propaganda and protests, beyond the likeness for a series of devastating flips; there is a reason why folk are compelled to support this individual due to his orientation:

I think that little girl is Riho :))

Kenny is regarded by many as the best wrestler in the world. Deal. with. it.
 
I think that little girl is Riho :))

Kenny is regarded by many as the best wrestler in the world. Deal. with. it.

His girlfriend or someone he use to wrestle with in Japan while shaming the business, anyhow it's pathetic that she is their champion largely due to Kenny's relation with her; you wouldn't put the strap on her in kinder garden, jesus christ absolutely horrific, this is wrestling looks even more fake then it is right now

There is really nothing to deal with, I have watched him closely in America during these weekly tappings and it couldn't be more adamant that he is a glorified mid-carder, on a technical level he is not up to scratch and everything else he does is just so goofy and premeditated; seriously what do you even see in this guy? I respect Okada he is highly gifted and I love watch him wrestle, but Kenny; watching Kenny in America makes me appreciate Okada even more because Okada must be something truly special for causing mass delusion about Kenny being no.1, he carried a broom stick to classics, that's part of what made the likes of Shawn and Bret so good, carrying mid carders to epic matches and delivering when their backs are against the wall, somehow despite being limited in a territory such as Japan where you only wrestle a small number of singles matches in a very light schedule, Kenny has helped elevate Okada's legacy in the modern era in my eyes because I don't rate Omega at all.
 
AEW has been fantastic, one complaint is the lack of promos. Hopefully they start to do more.

Jericho is fantastic as usual, loving his work.

Definitely recommend checking out Lucha brothers vs Private Party. Match was awesome.

Lucha Brothers have fast become my favorite tag team and I'm not someone who usually cares about tag team wrestling and has favorite tag teams.

Jericho is criminally under rated, I like private party they are talented but the booking of their matches is horrendous; I think it hurts their matches when you have so many near falls and massive high spots which should end a match, their match with the bucks was great until the finish where the bucks buried them by kicking out of all their best moves, the finish should have been that frankensteiner into the cutter, the ego of bucks and all the other friends running AEW is as big as NWO; this needs to be sorted before its too late.

Womens division is god awful skip it, I tend to skip all the spot monkey tag matches unless private party are involved because they at least do the spots better then the rest, that random dude with glasses? seriously what the hell? no explanation nothing, that type of goofy crap is not going to help them build a massive fan base, as far as the action is concerned very similar to NXT's style, Omega and that Jericho look alike had a similar match to Riddle/Cole but with no where near as much impact; but beyond that guys like Neville, Jericho, Moxley and that skeleton kid can work gives me jeff hardy vibes.

AEW has plenty of room for improvement and we need more promos, they give me WCW vibes and am not sure if that is a good or bad thing at this stage, if they want to be taken seriously beyond their extremely niche/smarky fanbase then they need to adapt to the main stream and cut out all the none sense, but so far so good and credit to NXT as well; both shows on Wednesdays have been great, competition is good. NWA Powerr is my kettle of fish though
 
[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] I was going to Tokyo for WK this year because it is Liger's final match but tickets and flights way too expensive at that time of year
 
It's cool to see AEW getting promoted during NBA games, they're also partnering with mainstream things like Rick and Morty

Rick-and-Morty-All-Elite-Cover.jpg

I see $$$ in Adam Page, instead of being a WWE light and mega pushing their starts, should look to introduce new main event names. Page has a great southern persona that could get over main stream, ? is if he is able to cut those fiery southern promos, I am yet to hear him talk
 
Apparently Randy Orton has shown interest in joining AEW, not sure this is so he can get more money from Vince or genuine interest to cross the pond
 
Surreal seeing Tyson Fury in WWE its just nuts really, he is a massive fan and I see a career for him in pro raslin if he wants to pursue it when the boxing is done, he has been the perfect fit so far and its a massive deal to see the lineal champion in WWE, he benefits and so does vince from the exposure.

Speaking of Boxing stars crossing over to raslin, AEW sign Anthony Oggogo; DDP played a massive part in that as he is good mates with Anthony, he is a former Olympic medalist and had to retire from Boxing due to a severe eye injury / injuries, DDP had been trying to help with his rehabilitation and Boxing return but it was going to be too risky for his health so he had to retire early which was a good move. Anthony is also a massive fan of raslin and if it weren't for Boxing he would have been a pro rasler, he wont be here just to make up the numbers, I feel he would have been perfect for the performance centre to learn your craft but he has made some good friends who may have been able to help with that side regardless
 
Apparently Randy Orton has shown interest in joining AEW, not sure this is so he can get more money from Vince or genuine interest to cross the pond
Most likely using it to get a monster contract from Vince, but good on him.

I would love to see him doing more in AEW, he's kind of just another body in the WWE atm.

He would become the hottest name in the business overnight if he were to show up and RKO Kenny, Cody or Jericho.
 
[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] I was going to Tokyo for WK this year because it is Liger's final match but tickets and flights way too expensive at that time of year
Should have gone man, this year they will also crown a double champion.

Okada-Ibushi and the IC champion vs IWGP heavyweight champion match will be nuts.
 
Most likely using it to get a monster contract from Vince, but good on him.

I would love to see him doing more in AEW, he's kind of just another body in the WWE atm.

He would become the hottest name in the business overnight if he were to show up and RKO Kenny, Cody or Jericho.

AEW are still not established enough either, but then again money talks. It will be hard for them to compete with the money WWE has on the table, the type of money which could even force Punk to come back; part of what made the old WCW so massive was the money they were willing to throw, the Khan's are wealthy but they wont be toying with those type of sums and are a lot more practical when it comes to their business, they wont be going all out
 
Should have gone man, this year they will also crown a double champion.

Okada-Ibushi and the IC champion vs IWGP heavyweight champion match will be nuts.

It's one of their best cards for sure, tickets are quite reasonable to and I like how they split it into 2 nights. Only issue is flights to Toyko around Xmas / New Years is crazy, perhaps booking something like this well in advance would have been more reasonable. The IC title is not on the line though, it's not advertised like that; only for IWGP HW title, this is probably my most anticipated NJPW match since Lesnar/Nakamura, two guys who can legit work and justify the hype
 
It's one of their best cards for sure, tickets are quite reasonable to and I like how they split it into 2 nights. Only issue is flights to Toyko around Xmas / New Years is crazy, perhaps booking something like this well in advance would have been more reasonable. The IC title is not on the line though, it's not advertised like that; only for IWGP HW title, this is probably my most anticipated NJPW match since Lesnar/Nakamura, two guys who can legit work and justify the hype
There is going to be a winner takes all match between the winner of Okada/Ibushi and likely Jay/Naito.

You should try go as you're a liger fan and it's something you can tick off your bucket list + you can spend your holidays in a foreign country which would definitely be a good life experience.
 
AEW are still not established enough either, but then again money talks. It will be hard for them to compete with the money WWE has on the table, the type of money which could even force Punk to come back; part of what made the old WCW so massive was the money they were willing to throw, the Khan's are wealthy but they wont be toying with those type of sums and are a lot more practical when it comes to their business, they wont be going all out
Yeah, Khan needs to open up his check book for some marquee names. He needs to do it for Orton, Io, Asuka and Kairi IMO. Those 3 women would add so much to their womens division and would probably make it the best in the world.
 
There is going to be a winner takes all match between the winner of Okada/Ibushi and likely Jay/Naito.

You should try go as you're a liger fan and it's something you can tick off your bucket list + you can spend your holidays in a foreign country which would definitely be a good life experience.

I agree, only thing is I don't have any dance partners purely because of the cost; plus perhaps not wise to go far east on me own first time either :yk3 I know am going to be at WK one day regardless, this is one of those shows too hard to pass. I didn't know there is going to be a winner takes all match, is that booked for Night 2 ? but Jan 4th main-event traditionally has always been THE match to see
 
I agree, only thing is I don't have any dance partners purely because of the cost; plus perhaps not wise to go far east on me own first time either :yk3 I know am going to be at WK one day regardless, this is one of those shows too hard to pass. I didn't know there is going to be a winner takes all match, is that booked for Night 2 ? but Jan 4th main-event traditionally has always been THE match to see
Not entirely sure which day it is but there's definitely a winner takes all to crown a double champ. I'm assuming it will be on night 2 and the match will be amazing, the big matches for NJPW are always bangers.

Gut tells me this is Naito's redemption story as it was him who pushed this double champion stuff and now they're doing it.

I can see Naito avenging his loss to Jay (Jay knocked him out of the G1 and took the IC title off him ) and Okada (lost to Okada @ WK 12 after winning the G1) and becoming double champion.
 
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Yeah, Khan needs to open up his check book for some marquee names. He needs to do it for Orton, Io, Asuka and Kairi IMO. Those 3 women would add so much to their womens division and would probably make it the best in the world.

They have always said from the start not competing with WWE, they are sort of just doing their own thing for now, testing the waters and taking it from there; I think that's the right approach and lets be honest, taking on Vince would be suicide at this point, if there is a market / demand which indicates they are capable of going down that route they can think about it then but it just doesn't seem like a practical thing to do.

Here's the thing, having Io, Asuka and Kairi is great but if you have been watching NXT and AEW, I don't know if this is coincidence but when the womens match was airing on AEW, simultaneously you had two HW's in Ripley / Bianca go at, then you had the Jericho / Darby match and on the other screen HW's in either Priest or Keith Lee / DD, historically size has always worked big time for WWWF Vince's farther promotion and then Vince himself as well, AEW needs to take note of that and not just pack their shows with stars that are all lightweights / of a similar vein, Asuka/Io/Kairi are a considerable upgrade over anyone in their division right now but you need HW's as well
 
They have always said from the start not competing with WWE, they are sort of just doing their own thing for now, testing the waters and taking it from there; I think that's the right approach and lets be honest, taking on Vince would be suicide at this point, if there is a market / demand which indicates they are capable of going down that route they can think about it then but it just doesn't seem like a practical thing to do.

Here's the thing, having Io, Asuka and Kairi is great but if you have been watching NXT and AEW, I don't know if this is coincidence but when the womens match was airing on AEW, simultaneously you had two HW's in Ripley / Bianca go at, then you had the Jericho / Darby match and on the other screen HW's in either Priest or Keith Lee / DD, historically size has always worked big time for WWWF Vince's farther promotion and then Vince himself as well, AEW needs to take note of that and not just pack their shows with stars that are all lightweights / of a similar vein, Asuka/Io/Kairi are a considerable upgrade over anyone in their division right now but you need HW's as well
Yeah, the company is definitely missing big men and they've admitted to it.

The problem is WWE is signing anyone half decent and doing nothing with them, there are dozens of WWE wrestlers who could have been amazing for AEW but are in NXT doing little to nothing meaningful when they could be utilized better in AEW. Not a shot at WWE, but they have such a bloated roster and you can only have so many stars in the number of top spots they have available.
 
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