The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[shaz619]

That’s not how it works though bro. They signed three-year deals. If they weren’t sure about AEW then why did they sign 3-year deals? Letting these guys walk out willy nilly into the arms of the competitor would be a bonehead business move although I wouldn’t put it past Tony. He'll probably hug them on their way out too.

Tony may be incompetent but many of the wrestlers are not blameless either for the s***t that they have been pulling. Which can be seen as a way of sabotaging the company. Especially considering that most of them were either sitting at home or streaming videos on Twitch when AEW picked them up, gave them lucrative contacts and a chance to ‘be themselves’.

WWE is a wasteland for Tag Team wrestling. I don’t see FTR going back there unless they have absolutely no other choice. Especially considering they have won every tag team belt there is to win there and the fact that they expressed a very public displeasure of Hunter and Shawn on Cornette’s podcast.

Who FTR? am not saying Khan should let them go but if someone wants to leave and express that there is nothing wrong with it. Didn’t he release Malakai due to his issues. There must be many who want to leave but obviously Khan isn’t going to let that happen. I don’t have a problem with this. AEW’s tag division isn’t all sunshines and rainbows, the E’s is vastly superior purely because there is structure and more potential now due to the regime change, there is already a focus on improving it so I would like to think it would be appealing at the very minimum, work would be guaranteed right that’s a plus, getting booked is like a dream for FTR at the moment

Tony shouldn’t be defended, AEW is a Disney Land for wrestlers, if he is taken for a gullible mark then that is his fault for not keeping professional relationships and leading like a man, he is too puzzy to get things in order. This has all been building for a few years and he could barely learn from last months events, first step for him should be to get off the coke and look at the reality of issues which have impacted AEW backstage since the beginning

 

[shaz619]

On a different and more lighter note, Tales from the Territories premiered their first episode earlier this week. The show is created by the the same guys behind Dark Side of the Ring and The Rock has produced it. Each episode is supposed to focus on a specific territory and the first episode was about Memphis Wrestling.

Right off the bat, I have to say that I really enjoyed it. It basically just features guys who were part of the territory telling stories that are recreated the same way they are in Dark Side. But the light-hearted and fun tone of his show is a welcome change from the dreariness of Dark Side.

The Memphis episode featured some great talking heads that obviously had long-standing association with the CWA: Lawler, Jerry Jarrett, Jimmy Hart, Dutch Mantel...Jeff Jarrett was on there too.

Looking forward to the episodes on Mid-South, AWA, Florida and one territory I hadn't even heard of: Polynesian Pro Wrestling, which apparently was a territory in Hawaii run by The Rock's grandparents. Would heavily recommend this show [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

Am going go check it out its on my list, did they disband and create a new shot because WWE have acquired Dark Side? or just a spin off of some kind

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That’s not how it works though bro. They signed three-year deals. If they weren’t sure about AEW then why did they sign 3-year deals? Letting these guys walk out willy nilly into the arms of the competitor would be a bonehead business move although I wouldn’t put it past Tony. He'll probably hug them on their way out too.

Tony may be incompetent but many of the wrestlers are not blameless either for the s***t that they have been pulling. Which can be seen as a way of sabotaging the company. Especially considering that most of them were either sitting at home or streaming videos on Twitch when AEW picked them up, gave them lucrative contacts and a chance to ‘be themselves’.

WWE is a wasteland for Tag Team wrestling. I don’t see FTR going back there unless they have absolutely no other choice. Especially considering they have won every tag team belt there is to win there and the fact that they expressed a very public displeasure of Hunter and Shawn on Cornette’s podcast.

What's FTR's gripe with HBK and HHH? They were a big reason they rose to prominence in NXT.

 

[shaz619]

What's FTR's gripe with HBK and HHH? They were a big reason they rose to prominence in NXT.

It’s a non-issue blown out of proportion, one of them confided in Shawn about something on RAW backstage, something personal and then Shawn shared it with the Kliq who later embarrassed FTR. I feel sorry for FTR that they shared something so minuscule, it made them look like whimps. Especially when you consider the best run of their careers and star making performance with global exposure was in NXT, since then they are best known as the guys who have great matches with the Briscoes and a small circle of fans are aware of that, the rest of their days are spent on the coach because Tony Khan is a shrewd booker, likes to pay people to sit on their hands.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It’s a non-issue blown out of proportion, one of them confided in Shawn about something on RAW backstage, something personal and then Shawn shared it with the Kliq who later embarrassed FTR. I feel sorry for FTR that they shared something so minuscule, it made them look like whimps. Especially when you consider the best run of their careers and star making performance with global exposure was in NXT, since then they are best known as the guys who have great matches with the Briscoes and a small circle of fans are aware of that, the rest of their days are spent on the coach because Tony Khan is a shrewd booker, likes to pay people to sit on their hands.

This is one thing that I find strange. Without NXT, so many wrestlers wouldn't have caught the attention of the world. FTR, DIY, UE, Black, KO, Sami etc these guys wouldn't have been promoter's guys on the radar if it weren't for WWE. They might have been well known on the indies, but it's WWE that put the brand value on them. The mainstream attention all of the indie guys get through NXT is far more than what they get on the indies, ROH, NJPW or Mexican circuit. Don't think either one of them would have gotten as good a deal from AEW if it weren't for their exploits in WWE. Would have been the same case of guys of MJF, Jungle boy etc who are signed for 90k USD a year. (MJF have probably gotten a bigger deal with his tantrums recently though)

 

[shaz619]

This is one thing that I find strange. Without NXT, so many wrestlers wouldn't have caught the attention of the world. FTR, DIY, UE, Black, KO, Sami etc these guys wouldn't have been promoter's guys on the radar if it weren't for WWE. They might have been well known on the indies, but it's WWE that put the brand value on them. The mainstream attention all of the indie guys get through NXT is far more than what they get on the indies, ROH, NJPW or Mexican circuit. Don't think either one of them would have gotten as good a deal from AEW if it weren't for their exploits in WWE. Would have been the same case of guys of MJF, Jungle boy etc who are signed for 90k USD a year. (MJF have probably gotten a bigger deal with his tantrums recently though)

It’s that attention from a major promotion no doubt but also the shrewd booking thanks to the likes of Ryan Ward and Gabe Sapolsky which elevated them further, it’s hilarious to criticise the likes of Andrade as some jobber who failed the genius that is Tony Khan and the world’s greatest wrestling promotion, but why did they sign him in the first place? it’s what you said, it was their success in NXT which bought them to prominence essentially, each person mattered no matter where they worked on the card, FTR, Undisputed era etc all became monetised in NXT, you make a good point on Sami to, he always wanted to work in a mask and never thought he’d be over without it, strange right, now he is one of the biggest stars in wrestling. On global level I agree with you but New Japan and Mexico have their own territories/market and are not as global oriented like WWE. MJF is worth every dollar and more, he is grossly underpaid, literally keeping the ship afloat.

Anyway, I watched the SD premier, the first wrestling show in ages which I watched at least 90% in full.

From top to bottom this was arguably one of the best shows of the year on TV from a segment and wrestling perspective. The only thing I didn’t watch was the womens tag and I suspect it wasn’t all that, but everything else was fantastic.

- The show opened with the bloodline, logan paul and then erupted into the fiasco involving Sami and Jey Uso, this segment was outstanding, Reigns and Logan failed in keeping a straight face because Sami was so entertaining lol and then later the stuff involving Jey Uso / Sami and The New Day was hilarious, Jey needs therapy, maybe they should bring in Dr Shelby people curse the E’s tag division but show me who has this level of story telling in the matches, I go out of my way to see what will happen involving Jey/Zayn, every little thing is enhancing the story

- I was then planning on skipping Solo Sika v Ricochet but they hooked me with their pace, this was a classic styles clash between speed and power, I don’t know if it’s just me and I knoe Sika is quiet agile but a lot of his work reminds me of Umaga, I really enjoyed the match, Ricochet sold like a champ, got all his stuff in and made Solo look like a million dollars who has serious potential, his work is sound technically and he’s fluid, wrestling is in his blood. This match was a lot of fun.

- Loved the introduction of Santos Escobar and his faction, was getting into the Hit Row stuff and didn’t expect it to get interrupted, and the return of Zelina Vega was done well to she will be a great addition as a mouth piece who can get messy if needed

- The main event, my oh my, who in the world today can remotely work like Gunther/Sheamus? another classic match which has elevated the IC title to another level. No one can active full time can compare to the realism they bring to wrestling, they made their fight appear so authentic. This was arguably more stiff and aggressive compared to the first match, they really beat the sh!t out of each other and Sheamus after many years is actually super over as a face because he is being allowed to do what he is does best and work like its his final match each night. Gunther was vicious and the blood in his mouth added to his intensity. Can we have a best of 7 series between these two?

Excellent show

 

[shaz619]

I mentioned in this thread before that Cokehead khan should make a grab at Gabe Sapolsky given that he was a free agent who Hunter would most likely look to bring back, and surprise surprise! Gabe has been bought back to WWE and is now signed with them, he is going to have a lead role in creative!

With all the booking issues in AEW, Gabe would have been one of the few who genuinely would be a solid investment. From what I understand, AEW is currently being booked by Tong with support from Schiavone and in the past the EVP’s! what a shambles

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I mentioned in this thread before that Cokehead khan should make a grab at Gabe Sapolsky given that he was a free agent who Hunter would most likely look to bring back, and surprise surprise! Gabe has been bought back to WWE and is now signed with them, he is going to have a lead role in creative!

With all the booking issues in AEW, Gabe would have been one of the few who genuinely would be a solid investment. From what I understand, AEW is currently being booked by Tong with support from Schiavone and in the past the EVP’s! what a shambles

One good thing about WWE that has been ever present in their mindset is they pay no hoot to the WON, PWI, or other youtube journalists. They just do what they want to whether it's a good decision or not.
Tony is a mark owner who books his shows to cater the so called journalists rather than the viewers. And 90% of AEW audience is the mark audience that loves Meltzer etc. and so they are essentially just patting each other's backs.

Even NJPW books their shows as per their vision. Okada had been a product in making for over a decade before Meltzer and Alvarez started drooling over him.

NJPW gave Omega the G1 climax win something no non Japanese wrestler has ever won. And he goes against them by saying they weren't taking him seriously.

All In was basically build on the success of NJPW and ROH. It was sort of a first big mash up show built as an indie show.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I mentioned in this thread before that Cokehead khan should make a grab at Gabe Sapolsky given that he was a free agent who Hunter would most likely look to bring back, and surprise surprise! Gabe has been bought back to WWE and is now signed with them, he is going to have a lead role in creative!

With all the booking issues in AEW, Gabe would have been one of the few who genuinely would be a solid investment. From what I understand, AEW is currently being booked by Tong with support from Schiavone and in the past the EVP’s! what a shambles

Tony won't know what to do with any great booker even if he signs him.
William Regal is just there as on screen manager. While his real value is behind the scenes.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It’s a non-issue blown out of proportion, one of them confided in Shawn about something on RAW backstage, something personal and then Shawn shared it with the Kliq who later embarrassed FTR. I feel sorry for FTR that they shared something so minuscule, it made them look like whimps. Especially when you consider the best run of their careers and star making performance with global exposure was in NXT, since then they are best known as the guys who have great matches with the Briscoes and a small circle of fans are aware of that, the rest of their days are spent on the coach because Tony Khan is a shrewd booker, likes to pay people to sit on their hands.

Well that's debatable. Their NXT run was great but it was only after their recent run of matches with The Bucks and The Briscoes that they unquestionably cemented themselves as the best tag team on the planet. As great as their NXT run was, at the end of the day it was NXT. If you want to talk about viewership and eye-balls then AEW has a much bigger audience. Also in NXT they only really had two great feuds with American Alpha and DIY. In AEW, they've had multiple great feuds and matches.

Ofcourse the big difference here is that they've got the most insecure tag team in the business trying to cut their legs off and an incompetent booker who doesn't know how to utilize the best tag team on his roster. But as I've said before, the ceiling for them to cement themselves as one of the ATG tag teams is much higher in AEW than it is in WWE. Hopefully Tony's coke supply runs out soon so he can come back to his senses.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Am going go check it out its on my list, did they disband and create a new shot because WWE have acquired Dark Side? or just a spin off of some kind

Nope Dark Side is very much alive and will be back. The creators confirmed that. It's VICE TV's most watched show and they've built a significant fanbase. So I don't see it going anywhere.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Who FTR? am not saying Khan should let them go but if someone wants to leave and express that there is nothing wrong with it. Didn’t he release Malakai due to his issues. There must be many who want to leave but obviously Khan isn’t going to let that happen. I don’t have a problem with this. AEW’s tag division isn’t all sunshines and rainbows, the E’s is vastly superior purely because there is structure and more potential now due to the regime change, there is already a focus on improving it so I would like to think it would be appealing at the very minimum, work would be guaranteed right that’s a plus, getting booked is like a dream for FTR at the moment

Tony shouldn’t be defended, AEW is a Disney Land for wrestlers, if he is taken for a gullible mark then that is his fault for not keeping professional relationships and leading like a man, he is too puzzy to get things in order. This has all been building for a few years and he could barely learn from last months events, first step for him should be to get off the coke and look at the reality of issues which have impacted AEW backstage since the beginning

WWE's roster literally has the same 5 tag teams that it rotates as challengers for The Usos. I mean how many more times do I have to see The Usos vs The Street Profits or The Usos v New Day before my brain completely goes numb? Why do you think they unified the tag belts? When I watch a WWE tag team match, the crowd is absolutely dead. And that's because even the people know that nothing special is going to happen. Structure means nothing if you are putting on boring matches that nobody cares about. When was the last time a WWE (not NXT) tag match got a reaction like The Acclaimed and Swerve in Our Glory got for their match at All Out? Or the one that FTR and The Bucks got on Dynamite?

I'm not defending Khan but he can't just let multiple guys walk off his show on to the other show. It sets a bad precedent that even if you signed a 3 year contract, its okay to just walk off when you feel like it. And Andrade isn't even someone whose booking has been atrocious. If there is anyone who deserves to be genuinely mad its Eddie Kingston or FTR or Miro.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You’re talking about the actual incident but ignoring what led up to it, Tony Khan using Dave to defend his lack of leadership by pointing out he tried to prevent an altercation, how exactly did he go about doing that? the first time these guys saw each other after the twitter spat was at the show, and it led to Sammy getting his *** beat from genesis to revelations, now in a “sport” which is fake that guy gets rewarded for his beating with a main event. Andrade decked him and got suspended that’s fine. But why are people eating Tony’s balls I don’t get that part? what has he done which is so great in all of this? he saw before all on social media what happened and Sammy is not exactly the saint he is being made out to be. And we are still going by Dave’s interpretation and info which has been leaked to him. What was Andrade ******** about in the E? it’s interesting he gets criticised as some third rate jobber when stuff like this happens same happened with Punk to, where were all his critics before this? bumming the likes of Yuta , Garcia, Jungle Boy and that amateur Adam Page, AEW fans are pure aids.

Page, Jungle Boy and Cassidy are a plague on the wrestling business and to even compare them with a third generation talent is unreal really, those guys have achieved nothing and the state of AEW really is a reflection of Tony’s investment in a bunch of spot monkeys who are a disgrace to wrestling, they were over among the hipster crowd for a while what are they now? they are no where close to main event material, they were a cheap nut for a depraved audience but the national audience should show you what they’ve achieved. If we are ignoring Andrade’s success in the states, he has done more in his country then the names you have mentioned in theirs.

As far as his ring work is concerned its on the level of all those guys, he may not compete as a package for some the ATG talent but to suggest he cant’t hang is ignorant really and you mentioned Cesaro who is deeply bland, if he is well liked, I don’t see why Andrade isn’t unless it’s more related for his behaviour but am glad he beat the crap out of Sammy its good to see wrestlers take the initiative that way, I wish Punk shooted on that coward Page as well. And I don’t think anyone is comparing him to Lesnar or Goldberg but there is no reason why he can’t be booked in the vein of a Nakamura or his previous run in NXT really, if he does leave and its to the E, I guarantee you he will have a better run then under that coke addict

Sammy is a p***k, make no mistake about it. The stuff he said on Twitter was reprehensible. And when you have problems with multiple people backstage then its clear that you're a problem. But as much as I don't like him, I am siding with him on this because nobody has denied that Andrade decked him after he was specifically told not to do so. I don't find this situation comparable to the Punk situation because in that case The Bucks came to his locker-room uninvited. And in that case we still don't know what specifically caused Punk to throw a punch. On top of that, with the recency of the entire Punk-Elite situation makes Andrade's actions even worse imo.

Well that says more about Andrade than it does about those guys. That he couldn't even get over with the hipster crowd, and these guys who you refer to as "a plague on the wrestling business did". Fact is at the end of the day, Andrade is simply not someone who has ever made a dime of difference business-wise to any company that he has worked for in the US. He's just a guy on the card. As much as I detest Page, he has main-evented multiple AEW PPVs, including one in which he was lucky to share the ring with the biggest star in wrestling today. It may have more to do with luck than his talent or ability but he was on the marquee. Cassidy is one of AEW's biggest and most popular stars. Not only is he a ratings draw but he is also beloved by the fans. There's a reason that AEW always had Punk, Jade, Britt, Cassidy at all their media events. He has also had some outstanding matches in AEW that have made him stand-out as something more than just a comedy wrestler.

Cesaro has had more amazing matches in the last year than Andrade has had in his entire US run. The difference between him and Andrade is night and day. When people wrestle Andrade it can be a good match but they rarely come out of it elevated. That's not the case when you wrestle Cesaro, who puts you over even if he beats you. Cesaro may not be a multiple time World Champion but he has more skill and natural ability in his left bicep than Andrade has in his entire body. What great matches has Andrade had besides that match with Gargano, the series of matches he had with Mysterio (where Mysterio put him over) and a couple of his AEW matches (PAC, Sammy/Darby)? Since just 2021, Cesaro has had classics with Rollins, Reigns, Takeshita, Dax Harwood...he has had very good matches with Jericho, Danielson, Dustin Rhodes. You and I agree and disagree on a lot of things but personally I think its straight-up blasphemous to compare an accomplished pro like Cesaro to a guy like Andrade who had the best run of his career when he used to wear a mask.

The reason people like Cesaro is because they have been seeing him have incredible matches for years and years without getting the push that he was always deserving of. There was a time when his promos were awful but even that is not the case anymore. And we've seen in AEW that he has the ability to deliver good promos too. Andrade meanwhile struggles to talk in an intelligible manner, let alone cut any kind of decent promo, so its not at all surprising that nobody cares about him.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

One good thing about WWE that has been ever present in their mindset is they pay no hoot to the WON, PWI, or other youtube journalists. They just do what they want to whether it's a good decision or not.
Tony is a mark owner who books his shows to cater the so called journalists rather than the viewers. And 90% of AEW audience is the mark audience that loves Meltzer etc. and so they are essentially just patting each other's backs.

Even NJPW books their shows as per their vision. Okada had been a product in making for over a decade before Meltzer and Alvarez started drooling over him.

NJPW gave Omega the G1 climax win something no non Japanese wrestler has ever won. And he goes against them by saying they weren't taking him seriously.

All In was basically build on the success of NJPW and ROH. It was sort of a first big mash up show built as an indie show.

I hate this about AEW. Their media scrums literally involve reporters being f*nboys and asking their favorite wrestlers how they 'put their match together' or how great it was to 'work' with so and so. I mean I know that kayfabe is dead but its not like you have to ***s on its grave. Atleast NJPW try to present their pressers as real pressers, where wrestlers are asked serious questions that also don't break the boundaries of kayfabe.

Unfortunately Tony is desperate for the love and adoration of the internet wrestling community. After all, he was one of the fifty people during the 90s that were on message boards talking about wrestling. The same people that Vince Russo was trying to focus his booking in WCW towards.

He also likes all his favorite "journalists" to be present when he takes his monthly shot at WWE.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I hate this about AEW. Their media scrums literally involve reporters being f*nboys and asking their favorite wrestlers how they 'put their match together' or how great it was to 'work' with so and so. I mean I know that kayfabe is dead but its not like you have to ***s on its grave. Atleast NJPW try to present their pressers as real pressers, where wrestlers are asked serious questions that also don't break the boundaries of kayfabe.

Unfortunately Tony is desperate for the love and adoration of the internet wrestling community. After all, he was one of the fifty people during the 90s that were on message boards talking about wrestling. The same people that Vince Russo was trying to focus his booking in WCW towards.

He also likes all his favorite "journalists" to be present when he takes his monthly shot at WWE.

They've just copied the elements from WWE, NJPW and indies to make a bubble for themselves. It's not going in a direction to grow. As simple as that.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This is one thing that I find strange. Without NXT, so many wrestlers wouldn't have caught the attention of the world. FTR, DIY, UE, Black, KO, Sami etc these guys wouldn't have been promoter's guys on the radar if it weren't for WWE. They might have been well known on the indies, but it's WWE that put the brand value on them. The mainstream attention all of the indie guys get through NXT is far more than what they get on the indies, ROH, NJPW or Mexican circuit. Don't think either one of them would have gotten as good a deal from AEW if it weren't for their exploits in WWE. Would have been the same case of guys of MJF, Jungle boy etc who are signed for 90k USD a year. (MJF have probably gotten a bigger deal with his tantrums recently though)

By that same token you could argue that they never would gave gotten signed by WWE if they weren't that good to begin with. The indies are loaded with guys that look like Zayn, Owens, Black...why is that those guys stood out? It's because they were incredible talents before they even reached WWE. You may not have followed ROH, but Kevin Steen v El Generico was one of the hottest feuds of the early 2010s. And both these guys were having incredible matches long before they reached WWE. Same applies to many other guys that have been on the NXT roster in recent years.

Now I'm not denying that WWE put brand value on these guys, gave them the opportunity to be bigger stars than they ever would have been in their previous companies and maybe even told him to moderate some of their bad habits in the ring. But WWE didn't make them the way they made Randy Orton or Roman Reigns or The Miz. I would even say that the biggest reason that NXT was as successful as it was, was because HHH was picking up fully-formed talents off the indies as opposed to green guys who didn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch, which is the case currently.

Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Nakamura, Samoa Joe, Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, WALTER, Alesiter Black, Ciampa, Gargano, Kross, Ricochet, Dijakovic, Keith Lee, Damien Priest, Matt Riddle, LA Knight...they were all established names on the indies or in other companies before they came to NXT.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

WWE's roster literally has the same 5 tag teams that it rotates as challengers for The Usos. I mean how many more times do I have to see The Usos vs The Street Profits or The Usos v New Day before my brain completely goes numb? Why do you think they unified the tag belts? When I watch a WWE tag team match, the crowd is absolutely dead. And that's because even the people know that nothing special is going to happen. Structure means nothing if you are putting on boring matches that nobody cares about. When was the last time a WWE (not NXT) tag match got a reaction like The Acclaimed and Swerve in Our Glory got for their match at All Out? Or the one that FTR and The Bucks got on Dynamite?

I'm not defending Khan but he can't just let multiple guys walk off his show on to the other show. It sets a bad precedent that even if you signed a 3 year contract, its okay to just walk off when you feel like it. And Andrade isn't even someone whose booking has been atrocious. If there is anyone who deserves to be genuinely mad its Eddie Kingston or FTR or Miro.

NXT under Trips always had a captivating tag division. DIY, American Alpha, Revival, Sanity, Balor and Joe, UE, Lorcan and Burch, Profits, Raiders, Stache Mountain, Gallus, Riddle and Dunne, Imperium, Breezango etc etc. It's Vince who doesn't like tag team wrestling.

Now Trips has already started beefing up the tag team division in a few months. Hit Row(hate them so much), Legado Del Phantasma, Imperium, Brawling Brutes. That's 4 new tag teams introduced in last 2-3 months. I think tag division is going to get a lot better now and won't play as a launching pad for potential single's stars. Can see Breezango and Burch and Lorcan making a come back as well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

They've just copied the elements from WWE, NJPW and indies to make a bubble for themselves. It's not going in a direction to grow. As simple as that.

Well wrestling in general is not growing anyways. Whether its WWE or AEW or IMPACT---they all have captive audiences that are not going anywhere.

AEW though has done remarkably well business-wise considering the constraints they've had to deal with. Almost all of their PPVs have done great business and they haven't been stupid enough to over-saturate the market with garbage PPVs that nobody cares about like TNA did back in the day.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] well Bray has returned officially now. So turns out he's big with the audience and social media does generate a lot of buzz about him.

Don't know why people are saying it's among the top 3 returns of all time. I won't see that. Bray coming back eventually was well known. He had pretty vehemently given AEW and other promotions a big no by raising his price too high which is logical considering his theme based wrestling is most suitable for WWE.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

NXT under Trips always had a captivating tag division. DIY, American Alpha, Revival, Sanity, Balor and Joe, UE, Lorcan and Burch, Profits, Raiders, Stache Mountain, Gallus, Riddle and Dunne, Imperium, Breezango etc etc. It's Vince who doesn't like tag team wrestling.

Now Trips has already started beefing up the tag team division in a few months. Hit Row(hate them so much), Legado Del Phantasma, Imperium, Brawling Brutes. That's 4 new tag teams introduced in last 2-3 months. I think tag division is going to get a lot better now and won't play as a launching pad for potential single's stars. Can see Breezango and Burch and Lorcan making a come back as well.

Yeah but at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. I'll believe it when I see it. I am glad to see Imperium being featured heavily...they are a great tag team. And I would mark out big time if Burch and Lorcan came back. Another awesome tag team. But a team like Hit Row doesn't do anything for me. Not only do they suck as they talkers, personalities and wrestlers...but because they are being featured in a prominent position as opposed to being jobbers, which is what they should be.

So happy to see my boy LA Knight back though. I hope he gets to cut a promo on SD! every week. He's so freaking good.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

By that same token you could argue that they never would gave gotten signed by WWE if they weren't that good to begin with. The indies are loaded with guys that look like Zayn, Owens, Black...why is that those guys stood out? It's because they were incredible talents before they even reached WWE. You may not have followed ROH, but Kevin Steen v El Generico was one of the hottest feuds of the early 2010s. And both these guys were having incredible matches long before they reached WWE. Same applies to many other guys that have been on the NXT roster in recent years.

Now I'm not denying that WWE put brand value on these guys, gave them the opportunity to be bigger stars than they ever would have been in their previous companies and maybe even told him to moderate some of their bad habits in the ring. But WWE didn't make them the way they made Randy Orton or Roman Reigns or The Miz. I would even say that the biggest reason that NXT was as successful as it was, was because HHH was picking up fully-formed talents off the indies as opposed to green guys who didn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch, which is the case currently.

Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Nakamura, Samoa Joe, Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, WALTER, Alesiter Black, Ciampa, Gargano, Kross, Ricochet, Dijakovic, Keith Lee, Damien Priest, Matt Riddle, LA Knight...they were all established names on the indies or in other companies before they came to NXT.

Yes that was good and logical scouting by NXT. But what I was saying was regardless of how good and famous they were prior to arrival in WWE, they wouldn't have become a mainstream name if it wasn't for WWE. The only guy who was actually really big worldwide before coming to WWE was AJ Styles which is one feather in his cap of being one of the GOATs.

Of the guys who WWE have successfully built from the scratch are Randy, Rock, Roman and Brock from the top of my head. Won't call the likes of Corbin, Strowman etc complete successes. Even Cena wrestled on the indies before coming to WWE.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] well Bray has returned officially now. So turns out he's big with the audience and social media does generate a lot of buzz about him.

Don't know why people are saying it's among the top 3 returns of all time. I won't see that. Bray coming back eventually was well known. He had pretty vehemently given AEW and other promotions a big no by raising his price too high which is logical considering his theme based wrestling is most suitable for WWE.

Maybe its just me but I was really disappointed not to see him as a new variation of The Fiend. I'm an absolute mark for that character and while I understand the problems that came with booking a character like that, I still feel a better job could have been done of presenting him as an unstoppable force without burying anyone and everyone he worked with.

That said....

This was an effing awesome return. It was the kind of production that only WWE could have pulled off and you could tell that they blew the (proverbial) budget on this.

Above all though, it was freakin' cool af. Most noticeable was the monster pop Bray got when he took the mask off. I mean it was the Road Warrior pop. Even though he is not The Fiend and likely back to his Swamp Guy gimmick, I am intrigued to see what he comes up with. As we all know he is a very creative guy and with Vince gone and HHH in-charge he will likely have more leeway and creative freedom than he has ever had in his career. Let's see what happens on RAW.

WWE right now feels more fresh and interesting than it has in years.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah but at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. I'll believe it when I see it. I am glad to see Imperium being featured heavily...they are a great tag team. And I would mark out big time if Burch and Lorcan came back. Another awesome tag team. But a team like Hit Row doesn't do anything for me. Not only do they suck as they talkers, personalities and wrestlers...but because they are being featured in a prominent position as opposed to being jobbers, which is what they should be.

So happy to see my boy LA Knight back though. I hope he gets to cut a promo on SD! every week. He's so freaking good.

Don't know why Knight wasn't signed earlier. The guy has been a complete package and had been main eventing TNA 5-6 years ago. His promos are some of the best currently. He has superstar written all over him.

It may sound a bit left field but I think Giovanni Vinci was doing pretty great in NXT as a singles wrestler. The guy was oozing charisma and presence there. But with Imperium, he is back as Walter's back up. I think this was one specific area where Vince was extremely good at. Spotting a guy and developing him to his liking. I found Breezango pretty entertaining as well. Fandango had been improving really well in the ring in NXT before his eventual release.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Maybe its just me but I was really disappointed not to see him as a new variation of The Fiend. I'm an absolute mark for that character and while I understand the problems that came with booking a character like that, I still feel a better job could have been done of presenting him as an unstoppable force without burying anyone and everyone he worked with.

That said....

This was an effing awesome return. It was the kind of production that only WWE could have pulled off and you could tell that they blew the (proverbial) budget on this.

Above all though, it was freakin' cool af. Most noticeable was the monster pop Bray got when he took the mask off. I mean it was the Road Warrior pop. Even though he is not The Fiend and likely back to his Swamp Guy gimmick, I am intrigued to see what he comes up with. As we all know he is a very creative guy and with Vince gone and HHH in-charge he will likely have more leeway and creative freedom than he has ever had in his career. Let's see what happens on RAW.

WWE right now feels more fresh and interesting than it has in years.

That is the only thing that interests me about Wyatt. The creativity, character arc and story telling. As an in ring worker, I have never been a fan of him.

As much as I liked the Fiend, its booking really killed it. You can't really have him squashing everyone and you can't really have him lose to everyone as well.

But it is intriguing where his character and stuff goes. I would absolutely enjoy him squashing Kross.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't know why Knight wasn't signed earlier. The guy has been a complete package and had been main eventing TNA 5-6 years ago. His promos are some of the best currently. He has superstar written all over him.

It may sound a bit left field but I think Giovanni Vinci was doing pretty great in NXT as a singles wrestler. The guy was oozing charisma and presence there. But with Imperium, he is back as Walter's back up. I think this was one specific area where Vince was extremely good at. Spotting a guy and developing him to his liking. I found Breezango pretty entertaining as well. Fandango had been improving really well in the ring in NXT before his eventual release.

Yeah I agree completely. His ring-work is also solid and fundamentally sound. I mean he's no technical wizard or anything but he's a great worker. And in wrestling, that matters much more than just doing great moves that mean nothing. WWE usually drops the ball when it comes to giving wrestlers different names. But with 'LA Knight' they hit a home-run...which besides being an awesome name, is also a massive improvement over 'Eli Drake'.

Speaking of names what did poor Imperium do to not get their names back? I mean eventually we will all get used to them but I don't think anyone can seriously say that their new names are better.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah but at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. I'll believe it when I see it. I am glad to see Imperium being featured heavily...they are a great tag team. And I would mark out big time if Burch and Lorcan came back. Another awesome tag team. But a team like Hit Row doesn't do anything for me. Not only do they suck as they talkers, personalities and wrestlers...but because they are being featured in a prominent position as opposed to being jobbers, which is what they should be.

So happy to see my boy LA Knight back though. I hope he gets to cut a promo on SD! every week. He's so freaking good.

The booking of Sheamus has been absolutely top notch for last few months. This is the most over he's been in his entire WWE career and he is putting on the best matches of his WWE career right now.
The most brilliant thing is how seamlessly he has turned into a face without changing a thing about his character. I call it perfect story telling and booking.

The Brawling Brutes vs Imperium was the best match last night IMO.

Disappointed to see Edge and Judgement Day feud still not over. Pretty sure it will go on for a few more months which is absolutely awful. Kicking Edge of out JD has turned out to be a big big mishap considering everything that has followed.

Just have a Balor vs Edge singles match and get it over with.

Rey is going nowhere in this pathetic feud and is consistently made to look like a chump while Dom is extremely awful on mic. That guy needs to be sent to NXT for a good year or two. Considering Theory, Bate, Breakker, JD McDonagh, Jungle Boy etc all the same age as Dom, it's disappointing to see him getting featured on the main roster so prominently while being so green.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That is the only thing that interests me about Wyatt. The creativity, character arc and story telling. As an in ring worker, I have never been a fan of him.

As much as I liked the Fiend, its booking really killed it. You can't really have him squashing everyone and you can't really have him lose to everyone as well.

But it is intriguing where his character and stuff goes. I would absolutely enjoy him squashing Kross.

Well you have to hold Vince accountable for some of the braindead booking that he did with that character. The biggest reason that character died was Vince. From the atrocity that was Seth Rollins v The Fiend at Hell in A Cell to having him squashed by Oldberg to that utterly baffling final match he had against Orton at WrestleMania...that made zero freaking sense. Not to mention, they burned him alive in the middle of the ring lol.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah I agree completely. His ring-work is also solid and fundamentally sound. I mean he's no technical wizard or anything but he's a great worker. And in wrestling, that matters much more than just doing great moves that mean nothing. WWE usually drops the ball when it comes to giving wrestlers different names. But with 'LA Knight' they hit a home-run...which besides being an awesome name, is also a massive improvement over 'Eli Drake'.

Speaking of names what did poor Imperium do to not get their names back? I mean eventually we will all get used to them but I don't think anyone can seriously say that their new names are better.

When he started out as LA Knight, I was like what a pathetic name. But he's really made it his own and that's a trait of a great wrestler who is able to make the most out of the very little.

I think they won't be getting their names back. WWE has trademarked their new names so they can use it for merch and stuff. Before that, they could their names out of WWE marketing to sell merch and stuff resulting in them making making with WWE not getting any of it. That seems like the only reason for having changed the names. Same thing with Jordan Devlin aka JD McDonagh. Jordan Devlin was a pretty kick *** wrestling name even though it was his real name.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well you have to hold Vince accountable for some of the braindead booking that he did with that character. The biggest reason that character died was Vince. From the atrocity that was Seth Rollins v The Fiend at Hell in A Cell to having him squashed by Oldberg to that utterly baffling final match he had against Orton at WrestleMania...that made zero freaking sense. Not to mention, they burned him alive in the middle of the ring lol.

Yes obviously Vince has to be blamed for that. He never really got the character. The only saving grace was the Bryan feud and the subsequent firefly fun house match against Cena. If it weren't for COVID, we would have gotten a traditional singles Bray vs Cena match which would have sucked. Around the time, he was finally beaten by Randy, I was actually relieved that atleast that painful feud was over. Plus a cunning and consistent heel like Randy should never be made to look like a regular dumb heel who would get outsmarted by the Fiend at every turn.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The booking of Sheamus has been absolutely top notch for last few months. This is the most over he's been in his entire WWE career and he is putting on the best matches of his WWE career right now.
The most brilliant thing is how seamlessly he has turned into a face without changing a thing about his character. I call it perfect story telling and booking.

The Brawling Brutes vs Imperium was the best match last night IMO.

Disappointed to see Edge and Judgement Day feud still not over. Pretty sure it will go on for a few more months which is absolutely awful. Kicking Edge of out JD has turned out to be a big big mishap considering everything that has followed.

Just have a Balor vs Edge singles match and get it over with.

Rey is going nowhere in this pathetic feud and is consistently made to look like a chump while Dom is extremely awful on mic. That guy needs to be sent to NXT for a good year or two. Considering Theory, Bate, Breakker, JD McDonagh, Jungle Boy etc all the same age as Dom, it's disappointing to see him getting featured on the main roster so prominently while being so green.

I still have to watch that match. Been hearing great things about it. But yes, I agree. Sheamus has gotten over big and besides the booking, credit should be given to him as well. He has been brilliant as of late. This feud has well and truly reinvigorated his career.

Glad to see Balor get such a big win but this match sucked. It had more interferences than Monday Nitro main-event. It also had all the things that people hate about WWE. The over the top, B.S, sport-entertainment gaga. And I mean, how long is this freaking feud going to last? Its been going on since WrestleMania in one way or another.

Balor getting this big win is interesting though. Lot of people have speculated that he is someone who is likely to benefit from HHH being in-charge. And I for one, am more than ready to see Finn Balor presented as a main-eventer.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes obviously Vince has to be blamed for that. He never really got the character. The only saving grace was the Bryan feud and the subsequent firefly fun house match against Cena. If it weren't for COVID, we would have gotten a traditional singles Bray vs Cena match which would have sucked. Around the time, he was finally beaten by Randy, I was actually relieved that atleast that painful feud was over. Plus a cunning and consistent heel like Randy should never be made to look like a regular dumb heel who would get outsmarted by the Fiend at every turn.

The worst thing about the Orton feud was that Orton literally burned him alive and watched him get roasted to char, but when The Fiend returned, rather than providing Orton with his comeuppance, Orton not only beat him in 10 minutes but also beat him with one RKO, when The Fiend had been kicking out of finishers regularly.

I dunno about that Cena match, it could very well have been awesome. That period was arguably the best period that WWE had had since 2016. And knowing Cena and Bray would have gotten some creative control with that match at Mania, it could have been great.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I still have to watch that match. Been hearing great things about it. But yes, I agree. Sheamus has gotten over big and besides the booking, credit should be given to him as well. He has been brilliant as of late. This feud has well and truly reinvigorated his career.

Glad to see Balor get such a big win but this match sucked. It had more interferences than Monday Nitro main-event. It also had all the things that people hate about WWE. The over the top, B.S, sport-entertainment gaga. And I mean, how long is this freaking feud going to last? Its been going on since WrestleMania in one way or another.

Balor getting this big win is interesting though. Lot of people have speculated that he is someone who is likely to benefit from HHH being in-charge. And I for one, am more than ready to see Finn Balor presented as a main-eventer.

Balor is the heart and soul of NXT. He was the main Trips guy. He was the one that really took NXT from developmental to the third brand. Yes there was Seth and KO before him, but Balor is the OG. Of late, Trips been associated with Gargano, Ciampa, Cole, Kross etc but Balor has always been the cornerstone of NXT. And he deserves it.

I would love to see him at the top of the mountain. He can get a lot more like himself as a heel now. And there is the AJ Styles storyline right beside the JD as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The worst thing about the Orton feud was that Orton literally burned him alive and watched him get roasted to char, but when The Fiend returned, rather than providing Orton with his comeuppance, Orton not only beat him in 10 minutes but also beat him with one RKO, when The Fiend had been kicking out of finishers regularly.

I dunno about that Cena match, it could very well have been awesome. That period was arguably the best period that WWE had had since 2016. And knowing Cena and Bray would have gotten some creative control with that match at Mania, it could have been great.

I think the firefly fun house was the best Cena and Bray could come up with. Better than a singles match. That for me alongwith the Boneyard match were the two highlights of that Mania.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I still have to watch that match. Been hearing great things about it. But yes, I agree. Sheamus has gotten over big and besides the booking, credit should be given to him as well. He has been brilliant as of late. This feud has well and truly reinvigorated his career.

Glad to see Balor get such a big win but this match sucked. It had more interferences than Monday Nitro main-event. It also had all the things that people hate about WWE. The over the top, B.S, sport-entertainment gaga. And I mean, how long is this freaking feud going to last? Its been going on since WrestleMania in one way or another.

Balor getting this big win is interesting though. Lot of people have speculated that he is someone who is likely to benefit from HHH being in-charge. And I for one, am more than ready to see Finn Balor presented as a main-eventer.

Regarding the Fight Pit match, it was interesting and bold to have it as the main event. The stipulation is still in infancy and a little unique right now and it will take 4 5 matches before it comes into its own. The distracting part was Daniel Cormier. The guy is a UFC legend but his lack of acting skills showed and he didn't do anything or even looked intimidating enough here. The second thing is the match was carried by Riddle in entirety which is very rare in Seth's matches. They could have used someone like Angle, Shamrock or even Malenko as a referree here. The best fight pit match to date remains the first one, Riddle vs Thatcher. Think they should only use guys like Lashley, Walter, Riddle, Dunne right now in this stipulation. Would love to see Lashley vs Walter Fight Pit match.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Balor is the heart and soul of NXT. He was the main Trips guy. He was the one that really took NXT from developmental to the third brand. Yes there was Seth and KO before him, but Balor is the OG. Of late, Trips been associated with Gargano, Ciampa, Cole, Kross etc but Balor has always been the cornerstone of NXT. And he deserves it.

I would love to see him at the top of the mountain. He can get a lot more like himself as a heel now. And there is the AJ Styles storyline right beside the JD as well.

Balor's NXT run was great. Absolutely loved that Ladder match he had with Owens at TakeOver. But I think Sami Zayn more than anyone deserves credit for setting the stage for NXT to become its own thing. He was the first guy on NXT to really get fans emotionally invested in him. Though it was during Balor's run that HHH really started bringing in more and more outside talent with guys like Joe, Nakamura, KENTA, Bobby Roode, Rhyno.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think the firefly fun house was the best Cena and Bray could come up with. Better than a singles match. That for me alongwith the Boneyard match were the two highlights of that Mania.

It was cool and very entertaining but at the end of the day, it wasn't a match. I don't blame WWE for what they had to do but man, that Mania was tough to watch.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Regarding the Fight Pit match, it was interesting and bold to have it as the main event. The stipulation is still in infancy and a little unique right now and it will take 4 5 matches before it comes into its own. The distracting part was Daniel Cormier. The guy is a UFC legend but his lack of acting skills showed and he didn't do anything or even looked intimidating enough here. The second thing is the match was carried by Riddle in entirety which is very rare in Seth's matches. They could have used someone like Angle, Shamrock or even Malenko as a referree here. The best fight pit match to date remains the first one, Riddle vs Thatcher. Think they should only use guys like Lashley, Walter, Riddle, Dunne right now in this stipulation. Would love to see Lashley vs Walter Fight Pit match.

It was a pretty good match and I enjoyed it greatly. But I think what this match was missing was that moment when the heel thinks he can push a fighter around just because he is the ref, only to get decked by that fighter and for the babyface to take advantage and win. Whenever a boxer, fighter or legit athlete is involved in matches like these as a referee, you expect them to play some kind of a small role in putting the heel in his place. Cormier added very little to this match. But it was still a very good match and probably the second best match of the night.

This idea of doing a worked MMA fight with no ring ropes actually has alot of legs and can be done really well. The best execution of it that I saw was actually in that deathmatch promotion GCW. GCW does a PPV every year called Josh Barnett's Bloodsport. Josh Barnett who is an ex-MMA fighter and a current pro-wrestler came up with the idea and it basically involves two guys getting in the right (with no ring ropes) and just beating the everliving s**t out of each other. They've had quite a few Bloodsport matches but the best one that I saw was between Moxley and Biff Busick (Oney Larcon) earlier this year and it was absolutely outstanding. It took place in a warehouse infront of 60 people, but it was outstanding and demonstrated the potential of that idea really well.

Given the way, MMA has risen in popularity in recent years, there is definitely a place for a good MMA-style gimmick match in wrestling.

 

[shaz619]

WWE's roster literally has the same 5 tag teams that it rotates as challengers for The Usos. I mean how many more times do I have to see The Usos vs The Street Profits or The Usos v New Day before my brain completely goes numb? Why do you think they unified the tag belts? When I watch a WWE tag team match, the crowd is absolutely dead. And that's because even the people know that nothing special is going to happen. Structure means nothing if you are putting on boring matches that nobody cares about. When was the last time a WWE (not NXT) tag match got a reaction like The Acclaimed and Swerve in Our Glory got for their match at All Out? Or the one that FTR and The Bucks got on Dynamite?

I'm not defending Khan but he can't just let multiple guys walk off his show on to the other show. It sets a bad precedent that even if you signed a 3 year contract, its okay to just walk off when you feel like it. And Andrade isn't even someone whose booking has been atrocious. If there is anyone who deserves to be genuinely mad its Eddie Kingston or FTR or Miro.

They are introducing new teams now are they not and focusing on developing their division further. Structure is vital, without it even with talent you’re going to sh!t the bed, there is nothing remotely interesting on AEW besides a few spots here and there, watching their division is like seeing a sexually transmitted disease spread, the acclaimed got over by their own design, FTR lack direction and are less interesting then they have ever been it was sad to see them work with a pair of bums last week what was so inspiring about that and the bucks are not there anymore and that’s meant to be a blessing, you talk about the 5 tags in WWE but in AEW there are too many and there is nothing being offered which remotely compares to the story telling in Zayn/Bloodlines matches.

Am not on about Tony and letting people go nobody can leave just like that under contract then again AEW is a paradise for wrestlers

 

[shaz619]

Sammy is a p***k, make no mistake about it. The stuff he said on Twitter was reprehensible. And when you have problems with multiple people backstage then its clear that you're a problem. But as much as I don't like him, I am siding with him on this because nobody has denied that Andrade decked him after he was specifically told not to do so. I don't find this situation comparable to the Punk situation because in that case The Bucks came to his locker-room uninvited. And in that case we still don't know what specifically caused Punk to throw a punch. On top of that, with the recency of the entire Punk-Elite situation makes Andrade's actions even worse imo.

Well that says more about Andrade than it does about those guys. That he couldn't even get over with the hipster crowd, and these guys who you refer to as "a plague on the wrestling business did". Fact is at the end of the day, Andrade is simply not someone who has ever made a dime of difference business-wise to any company that he has worked for in the US. He's just a guy on the card. As much as I detest Page, he has main-evented multiple AEW PPVs, including one in which he was lucky to share the ring with the biggest star in wrestling today. It may have more to do with luck than his talent or ability but he was on the marquee. Cassidy is one of AEW's biggest and most popular stars. Not only is he a ratings draw but he is also beloved by the fans. There's a reason that AEW always had Punk, Jade, Britt, Cassidy at all their media events. He has also had some outstanding matches in AEW that have made him stand-out as something more than just a comedy wrestler.

Cesaro has had more amazing matches in the last year than Andrade has had in his entire US run. The difference between him and Andrade is night and day. When people wrestle Andrade it can be a good match but they rarely come out of it elevated. That's not the case when you wrestle Cesaro, who puts you over even if he beats you. Cesaro may not be a multiple time World Champion but he has more skill and natural ability in his left bicep than Andrade has in his entire body. What great matches has Andrade had besides that match with Gargano, the series of matches he had with Mysterio (where Mysterio put him over) and a couple of his AEW matches (PAC, Sammy/Darby)? Since just 2021, Cesaro has had classics with Rollins, Reigns, Takeshita, Dax Harwood...he has had very good matches with Jericho, Danielson, Dustin Rhodes. You and I agree and disagree on a lot of things but personally I think its straight-up blasphemous to compare an accomplished pro like Cesaro to a guy like Andrade who had the best run of his career when he used to wear a mask.

The reason people like Cesaro is because they have been seeing him have incredible matches for years and years without getting the push that he was always deserving of. There was a time when his promos were awful but even that is not the case anymore. And we've seen in AEW that he has the ability to deliver good promos too. Andrade meanwhile struggles to talk in an intelligible manner, let alone cut any kind of decent promo, so its not at all surprising that nobody cares about him.

Well it is irrelevant what Andrade did when his promoter failed to defuse the situation and is being anointed as some special booker and leader we all should have sympathy for an, the wrestling business isn’t all sunshines and rainbows it is naive to assume every single talent is going be a suck up or your best friend, I know Tony has succeeded in this with some of the boys though no doubt about that, but after the stuff with Punk/Elite it couldn’t be more adamant that the drug addict lacks basic leadership

It is amusing to suggest the likes of Cassidy, Jungle Boy and Page are over or are major draws in the united states. The main folk who support these guys is a niche audience of hipster smarks who get off to those outlaw mudshows, if couldn’t be more true now, the fans have had their one pump over them? what exactly are they doing for the company at this point? their stock is at an all time low and there is plenty of evidence is the most recent past which shows you viewers tuning out to them and even the fans have grown sour, the honeymoon period is over and they can’t draw a reaction out of a corpse. Even still none had the same level of singles matches which Andrade had and this is despite coke head not using him effectively, as I said he was signed on the back of his success in the US and one championships where ever he went. You giving credit to Page for main eventing AEW PPv’s is the same as Dave making out he is some star on par with Punk, along with that comment it would be interesting to see the undercard for those shows.

Since 2021? Cesaro has been inactive for a big part of it, he’s a good worker but none of his runs can remotely compare to Andrade’s in NXT that alone is more then what Cesarao sadly has achieved in his entire career and you look at Mexico and he blows him out the water, Cesaro has never been considered the guy wherever he went and he can work but there is nothing else there, his stock is lower then ever being designated to working in the companies C brand, I don’t know what he is elevating it is desperate to suggest he is elevating anything other then narrow opinions of the outcome of his matches, what did he do for Greesham? who I still consider an angry midget, but I agree with you calling him an elevator, in other words Tony is using him like a glorified jobber to enhance other talent because he don’t know how to draw a dime with him

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] well Bray has returned officially now. So turns out he's big with the audience and social media does generate a lot of buzz about him.

Don't know why people are saying it's among the top 3 returns of all time. I won't see that. Bray coming back eventually was well known. He had pretty vehemently given AEW and other promotions a big no by raising his price too high which is logical considering his theme based wrestling is most suitable for WWE.

What a return, Bray Wyatt is a special attraction and that pop was insane. I loved the whole presentation of his return, his alter egos in the crowd to the cobwebs in the fire fly fun house and there was a subtle tribute to his friend Brodie Lee to, the whole think just felt like it meant something and for once the hype delivered. He received a crazy pop but that’s just how over he has been despite 50/50 booking.

It would have been a catastrophe if he went to AEW, they lack order and would not know what to do with him, Bray Wyatt would be used as a jobber in AEW and they would desperately try to get the likes of Cassidy, Yuta and Garcia over instead because they are viewed as the second coming of Austin, Rock and Randy Savage

 

[shaz619]

I didn’t watch most of the PPV but was curious by the main event, I think the crowd were pretty much like the rest of us at the start not knowing how to react to something new and it looked like they were trying a few ideas out early on.

Second half they picked things up a bit and fought at the top which got people excited.

It’s an interesting gimmick with potential and it will take some time for the match to develop, there is no Shawn Michaels to help them get it up and running from the get go so will take some time and need the right wrestlers in the Pitt but perhaps it can be used for Riddle mostly or Lesnar / anyone else with combat experience such as Corbin who was a golden gloves champion

 

[shaz619]

In my opinion, Bray Wyatt in all his personas is the best gimmick since The Undertaker.

- Drawing power, check
- Merch sales, check
- Super over, check
- Doesn’t need to kill himself in the ring, check
- Mic work, check
- Charisma / aura, check

We can thank these people for helping him develop his ideas: Dusty, Gabe, Ryan Ward and Regal

Hopefully HHH doesn’t mess this up like Vince use to enjoy the 50/50 **.

But am hoping the best delegator in wrestling, allows Gabe to lead the creative which is widely rumoured and on that front there should be little to worry

We all talk about who should beat Reigns, and I have to add a new candidate to the small list and that is Bray, he is long due a proper run and be allowed a rocket to be strapped to his back. I certainly wouldn’t mind it. All sorts of things can happen with injuries etc WWE need to be open and flexible.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

What a return, Bray Wyatt is a special attraction and that pop was insane. I loved the whole presentation of his return, his alter egos in the crowd to the cobwebs in the fire fly fun house and there was a subtle tribute to his friend Brodie Lee to, the whole think just felt like it meant something and for once the hype delivered. He received a crazy pop but that’s just how over he has been despite 50/50 booking.

It would have been a catastrophe if he went to AEW, they lack order and would not know what to do with him, Bray Wyatt would be used as a jobber in AEW and they would desperately try to get the likes of Cassidy, Yuta and Garcia over instead because they are viewed as the second coming of Austin, Rock and Randy Savage

Nah Bray would have gone to AEW if he wanted to but he pretty much doesn't want to go anywhere else.

 

[shaz619]

Nah Bray would have gone to AEW if he wanted to but he pretty much doesn't want to go anywhere else.

They would have made him the leader of the dark order aka glorified job squad, there would be a few tribute shows in the name of Brodie Lee and a bunch of bacheh coming out like aimless fools taking precious TV time with those masks on. Bray would be limited to a tribute act specialist and after they get all the tributes out their system, he would be used to “elevate” mediocre talent on Rampage and ROH, it would be totally justified to because it would all be in the name of using Bray’s name to give a bunch of novices a rub which they’d never remotely live up to.

Bray survived atrocious 50/50 booking but he would not survive the Cokehead.

Best move of his career was not signing there and I think the break has benefited him, he has experience issues in his personal life and I suspect mental health issues to

 

[BunnyRabbit]

They would have made him the leader of the dark order aka glorified job squad, there would be a few tribute shows in the name of Brodie Lee and a bunch of bacheh coming out like aimless fools taking precious TV time with those masks on. Bray would be limited to a tribute act specialist and after they get all the tributes out their system, he would be used to “elevate” mediocre talent on Rampage and ROH, it would be totally justified to because it would all be in the name of using Bray’s name to give a bunch of novices a rub which they’d never remotely live up to.

Bray survived atrocious 50/50 booking but he would not survive the Cokehead.

Best move of his career was not signing there and I think the break has benefited him, he has experience issues in his personal life and I suspect mental health issues to

Don't know about Windham's personal and mental health issues.

I do think Ciampa and Gargano did the good thing by choosing to stay with WWE instead of jumping the ship alongside UE and other NXT guys. Quite happy for Ciampa cause he wasn't seen anything special by Vince and would have been used a jobber and if he had gone to AEW, there was always the neck injury clout hanging over his head (something he has said has made him too cautious to not work dangerously) and he would have been given the same ex NXT guy treatment there. He kept the faith with WWE and despite lurking in the shadows for a few months under Vince, he is back to getting screen time and cutting promos alongside Miz once Trips took over.

He has been missing for last few weeks since Miz's feud with Dexter escalated. I think there's a good chance of Trips bringing him back as the Blackheart.

Blackheart gimmick alongside The Demon are already cemented as two legendary gimmicks in NXT history.

 

[shaz619]

Don't know about Windham's personal and mental health issues.

I do think Ciampa and Gargano did the good thing by choosing to stay with WWE instead of jumping the ship alongside UE and other NXT guys. Quite happy for Ciampa cause he wasn't seen anything special by Vince and would have been used a jobber and if he had gone to AEW, there was always the neck injury clout hanging over his head (something he has said has made him too cautious to not work dangerously) and he would have been given the same ex NXT guy treatment there. He kept the faith with WWE and despite lurking in the shadows for a few months under Vince, he is back to getting screen time and cutting promos alongside Miz once Trips took over.

He has been missing for last few weeks since Miz's feud with Dexter escalated. I think there's a good chance of Trips bringing him back as the Blackheart.

Blackheart gimmick alongside The Demon are already cemented as two legendary gimmicks in NXT history.

Ciampa actually was liked by Vince and treated well in comparison to guys like Mark Mero, sorry I meant Karrion Kross. I can’t say there was anything wrong with how Ciampa was used by Vince and it was smart to align him with Mizz which I believe is something Hunter has continued in storylines, you can go back and look this up he was given significant time. There was nothing to suggest Ciampa was some guy Vince was against deeply or something, it was more to do with Ciampa’s belief in the NXT brand, he would have stayed there for good were it not for the change in regime, but when NXT 2.0 came about he thought I am better off on the main roster now. In any case Ciampa and Gargano played smart, otherwise they would be jobbing in AEW like the UE era right now or worse getting booed out the building in IMPACT

Yes we got LA Knight back aka Eli Drake so it wouldn’t surprise me if Ciampa is back with his old persona

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Ciampa actually was liked by Vince and treated well in comparison to guys like Mark Mero, sorry I meant Karrion Kross. I can’t say there was anything wrong with how Ciampa was used by Vince and it was smart to align him with Mizz which I believe is something Hunter has continued in storylines, you can go back and look this up he was given significant time. There was nothing to suggest Ciampa was some guy Vince was against deeply or something, it was more to do with Ciampa’s belief in the NXT brand, he would have stayed there for good were it not for the change in regime, but when NXT 2.0 came about he thought I am better off on the main roster now. In any case Ciampa and Gargano played smart, otherwise they would be jobbing in AEW like the UE era right now or worse getting booed out the building in IMPACT

Yes we got LA Knight back aka Eli Drake so it wouldn’t surprise me if Ciampa is back with his old persona

Ciampa wasn't given much time even with his heel alignment with Miz when Vince was there. Vince might not have hated him, but he didn't care much about him either. As soon as Trips took over, Ciampa started getting promo time and lengthier matches.

Kross is dross IMO. He was rightly buried by Vince. The guy can't wrestle. Yet Trips has given him a win over Drew of all people. Hit Row and Kross are two re signings that I don't like under the new regime.


Ciampa Randy feud could be great if it happens.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

They are introducing new teams now are they not and focusing on developing their division further. Structure is vital, without it even with talent you’re going to sh!t the bed, there is nothing remotely interesting on AEW besides a few spots here and there, watching their division is like seeing a sexually transmitted disease spread, the acclaimed got over by their own design, FTR lack direction and are less interesting then they have ever been it was sad to see them work with a pair of bums last week what was so inspiring about that and the bucks are not there anymore and that’s meant to be a blessing, you talk about the 5 tags in WWE but in AEW there are too many and there is nothing being offered which remotely compares to the story telling in Zayn/Bloodlines matches.

Am not on about Tony and letting people go nobody can leave just like that under contract then again AEW is a paradise for wrestlers

Despite the schizophrenic booking AEW has been putting up whopper tag matches for 3 years now. FTR v Bucks, Acclaimed v Swerve in Our Glory, Bucks v Lucha Bros, FTR v Page/Omega. Bucks v Page/Omega are just a few names that come to mind. But I cannot remember the last time I saw a great tag match in WWE. Probably would have to go back 4 or so years.

FTR lack direction right now but its not like that will always be the case. At the end of the day, AEW values and gives great importance to tag team wrestling. And as long as that is the case, FTR will always be top guys and feel like more of a big deal in AEW than they would in WWE.

I don't agree. They are cold matches in which the crowd is cheering for Zayn, not the quality of the wrestling. They are great for storytelling but as matches they are nothing more than run-of-the-mill 10 minute TV tag matches that we've been seeing on SmackDown since the days of Teddy Long.

 

[shaz619]

Despite the schizophrenic booking AEW has been putting up whopper tag matches for 3 years now. FTR v Bucks, Acclaimed v Swerve in Our Glory, Bucks v Lucha Bros, FTR v Page/Omega. Bucks v Page/Omega are just a few names that come to mind. But I cannot remember the last time I saw a great tag match in WWE. Probably would have to go back 4 or so years.

FTR lack direction right now but its not like that will always be the case. At the end of the day, AEW values and gives great importance to tag team wrestling. And as long as that is the case, FTR will always be top guys and feel like more of a big deal in AEW than they would in WWE.

I don't agree. They are cold matches in which the crowd is cheering for Zayn, not the quality of the wrestling. They are great for storytelling but as matches they are nothing more than run-of-the-mill 10 minute TV tag matches that we've been seeing on SmackDown since the days of Teddy Long.

Stylistically there is very little difference except I have seen more flips and high spots in AEW’s tag division, the modern audience has grown numb go seeing that and while you get that weekly, you get to see it in the E on PPV. However, whether people prefer it or not the fewer teams allows for more growth. What growth have we seen in AEW, spot fests will only get people so far, what has been so engaging with their story telling, what makes you go out of your way to tune into the AEW tag team division, I highly doubt it is something you would actively search for on their program. The Acclaimed are very fortunate, it could have been so much worse, they are the one team that was allowed to thrive organically and with the bucks not there they got lucky, but what of Private Party so much potential and nothing. Now they have too many teams with vanilla persons or poor chemistry or you got the usual high spot wrestling.

If you watched FTR work last week they genuinely had to dumb their style down to the level of their opponents. If AEW values tag team wrestling beyond their little spot fests and goofy booking, then FTR would have more steam, but they don’t fit in that aids environment. They are yet to surpass their NXT run in north American, now that was a time when tag team wrestling was something you genuinely go out of your way to watch for the novelty of watching the ring work and the story telling was a bonus. Fans have been dehydrated from the E’s style but you are getting pretty much the same in AEW just repackaged with minimal story telling and more high spots weekly. I disagree they will be a bigger deal in AEW, will never happen this is their peak in AEW, I hope when their contract expires they can go some place they will be valued

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well it is irrelevant what Andrade did when his promoter failed to defuse the situation and is being anointed as some special booker and leader we all should have sympathy for an, the wrestling business isn’t all sunshines and rainbows it is naive to assume every single talent is going be a suck up or your best friend, I know Tony has succeeded in this with some of the boys though no doubt about that, but after the stuff with Punk/Elite it couldn’t be more adamant that the drug addict lacks basic leadership

It is amusing to suggest the likes of Cassidy, Jungle Boy and Page are over or are major draws in the united states. The main folk who support these guys is a niche audience of hipster smarks who get off to those outlaw mudshows, if couldn’t be more true now, the fans have had their one pump over them? what exactly are they doing for the company at this point? their stock is at an all time low and there is plenty of evidence is the most recent past which shows you viewers tuning out to them and even the fans have grown sour, the honeymoon period is over and they can’t draw a reaction out of a corpse. Even still none had the same level of singles matches which Andrade had and this is despite coke head not using him effectively, as I said he was signed on the back of his success in the US and one championships where ever he went. You giving credit to Page for main eventing AEW PPv’s is the same as Dave making out he is some star on par with Punk, along with that comment it would be interesting to see the undercard for those shows.

Since 2021? Cesaro has been inactive for a big part of it, he’s a good worker but none of his runs can remotely compare to Andrade’s in NXT that alone is more then what Cesarao sadly has achieved in his entire career and you look at Mexico and he blows him out the water, Cesaro has never been considered the guy wherever he went and he can work but there is nothing else there, his stock is lower then ever being designated to working in the companies C brand, I don’t know what he is elevating it is desperate to suggest he is elevating anything other then narrow opinions of the outcome of his matches, what did he do for Greesham? who I still consider an angry midget, but I agree with you calling him an elevator, in other words Tony is using him like a glorified jobber to enhance other talent because he don’t know how to draw a dime with him

I'm merely comparing Page to Andrade, compared to whom he is a massive star. And like I said, that says more about Andrade than it does about Page. Maybe if Andrade puts a mask on he will be more over because clearly whatever he has been doing in the US till now has not been working.

It's not just hipster smarks. Cassidy is highly popular with the vast majority of the AEW audience. You can pretty much see that everytime he comes out. His matches have drawn some of the highest quarters of the show on numerous occasions and he is also one of their biggest merch sellers. Just because you don't like him or that style of wrestling doesn't mean he isn't massively over and wildly popular among the fans.

The other two are bleh but even they were more over at various points than Andrade has ever been in his entire time in the US.

No offence but this is just a ridiculous comparison. Cesaro is one of the greatest workers in the world today who is universally lauded for his wrestling ability by just about everyone in the business. How has he been inactive? He had got a push at the start of 2021 after which he delivered numerous excellent matches. And since coming to AEW he has had multiple bangers as well. You may not have seen them but they did happen. Andrade's entire NXT run is literally remembered for one match. And he wasn't nearly as popular as guys like Drew, Bobby Roode, Gargano, Ciampa, Black, Cole etc. were right around the same time.

Why are you focusing on Gresham? Did you watch him wrestle Dax, Takeshita, Dustin? Because if you didn't then you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen all of Andrade's matches in AEW and he has not delivered a single match on the level of Cesaro v Dax or Cesaro v Takeshita. And he has been there for a year. Even Cody lighting himself on fire couldn't get this guy over

Also, getting over in Mexico means very little when you come to the states. Vampiro became the biggest star in Mexico in a week and he is someone who (according to his own admission) never even learned to take a flat back bump. Mistico was one of the biggest stars in Mexico in recent years and we all saw how good he was when he came to WWE.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Stylistically there is very little difference except I have seen more flips and high spots in AEW’s tag division, the modern audience has grown numb go seeing that and while you get that weekly, you get to see it in the E on PPV. However, whether people prefer it or not the fewer teams allows for more growth. What growth have we seen in AEW, spot fests will only get people so far, what has been so engaging with their story telling, what makes you go out of your way to tune into the AEW tag team division, I highly doubt it is something you would actively search for on their program. The Acclaimed are very fortunate, it could have been so much worse, they are the one team that was allowed to thrive organically and with the bucks not there they got lucky, but what of Private Party so much potential and nothing. Now they have too many teams with vanilla persons or poor chemistry or you got the usual high spot wrestling.

If you watched FTR work last week they genuinely had to dumb their style down to the level of their opponents. If AEW values tag team wrestling beyond their little spot fests and goofy booking, then FTR would have more steam, but they don’t fit in that aids environment. They are yet to surpass their NXT run in north American, now that was a time when tag team wrestling was something you genuinely go out of your way to watch for the novelty of watching the ring work and the story telling was a bonus. Fans have been dehydrated from the E’s style but you are getting pretty much the same in AEW just repackaged with minimal story telling and more high spots weekly. I disagree they will be a bigger deal in AEW, will never happen this is their peak in AEW, I hope when their contract expires they can go some place they will be valued

It's not all highspots. The ones doing that style are The Bucks and Lucha Bros. FTR, The Acclaimed, Swerve in Our Glory...until recently, reDragon, Team Taz were/are all fundamentally sound tag teams.

I never disagreed with you on FTR's booking. That match sucked. But fact is that FTR are still incredibly over and until Tony dropped the ball on their booking they were getting monster pops on a weekly basis. There's no reason why that can't be the case again. In WWE, they would never get a pop like that because WWE fans are programmed to not give two s**ts about tag team wrestling.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

RAW this week looks like a pretty exciting show. Interested to see how they react to the Daddy A*s chants tonight during the DX reunion. Because Billy Gunn is pretty much over like God these days and there's no way that New York crowd ain't chanting that. Somehow though I have a feeling that HHH will have a retort up his sleeve to get the attention of the internet.

Most of all though I think everyone is looking forward to hearing Bray talk.

 

[shaz619]

I'm merely comparing Page to Andrade, compared to whom he is a massive star. And like I said, that says more about Andrade than it does about Page. Maybe if Andrade puts a mask on he will be more over because clearly whatever he has been doing in the US till now has not been working.

It's not just hipster smarks. Cassidy is highly popular with the vast majority of the AEW audience. You can pretty much see that everytime he comes out. His matches have drawn some of the highest quarters of the show on numerous occasions and he is also one of their biggest merch sellers. Just because you don't like him or that style of wrestling doesn't mean he isn't massively over and wildly popular among the fans.

The other two are bleh but even they were more over at various points than Andrade has ever been in his entire time in the US.

No offence but this is just a ridiculous comparison. Cesaro is one of the greatest workers in the world today who is universally lauded for his wrestling ability by just about everyone in the business. How has he been inactive? He had got a push at the start of 2021 after which he delivered numerous excellent matches. And since coming to AEW he has had multiple bangers as well. You may not have seen them but they did happen. Andrade's entire NXT run is literally remembered for one match. And he wasn't nearly as popular as guys like Drew, Bobby Roode, Gargano, Ciampa, Black, Cole etc. were right around the same time.

Why are you focusing on Gresham? Did you watch him wrestle Dax, Takeshita, Dustin? Because if you didn't then you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen all of Andrade's matches in AEW and he has not delivered a single match on the level of Cesaro v Dax or Cesaro v Takeshita. And he has been there for a year. Even Cody lighting himself on fire couldn't get this guy over

Also, getting over in Mexico means very little when you come to the states. Vampiro became the biggest star in Mexico in a week and he is someone who (according to his own admission) never even learned to take a flat back bump. Mistico was one of the biggest stars in Mexico in recent years and we all saw how good he was when he came to WWE.

Page is not a massive star by any stretch of the imagination, and despite being treated like royalty his ring work is still vastly inferior to Andrade’s, hilarious thing is he is blessed in the English language and still has no charisma, it actually says more about Page here that he is unable to surpass the aura of Andrade.

He was out for a bit hasn’t he and where has Cesaro ever been presented as the guy or world champion in any promotion? if I recall you may have been sour on him before he signed to AEW, I don’t know what has changed since then but working with some no names bums or glorified mid carders shouldn’t make him some GOAT now, Cesaro has also benefited from working almost as many singles matches in his brief run as Andrade has in his entire AEW career. I am not denying he is a great worker but to suggest Andrade is inferior purely on ring quality alone is insane. But this is Cesaro’s ceiling, you mentioned he is elevating his opponents, and that he is doing, Cesaro’s ceiling has always been talent enhancement but I’ve not heard the growing waves which are forcing me to tune into some random Jap dude

On Orange Cassidy, yeah AEW is mostly watched by hipsters though and he is over with that crowd but you got to be a seriously stupid person to enjoy his taps and slaps at this point, surely the fans have had their quick pump over him, are they still pumping to him now? From what I’ve heard that isn’t the case, by any stretch he isn’t someone who is ever going to be a credible main eventer, that’s like giving santino marella a plug for his shtick but all of a sudden this fag is a superstar, the longer Khan believes that the lower they will stoop

Well then by that logic getting over anywhere means very little in general, why even hire the guy, on which basis did they sign him in the first place, Mexico has produced some of the best stars in history it is a respected territory in wrestling it’s not some scummy independent promotion which produces untrained bums AEW hipsters jerk to, the fact that they are being praised and worshiped is a good reflection of the kind of fans which like this sort of product and the wrestlers they like to put on a pedestal in comparison

And on Andrade’s run in NXT, he wasn’t popular I agree, he was a heel. His job was to get heat, that was quiet refreshing

 

[shaz619]

It's not all highspots. The ones doing that style are The Bucks and Lucha Bros. FTR, The Acclaimed, Swerve in Our Glory...until recently, reDragon, Team Taz were/are all fundamentally sound tag teams.

I never disagreed with you on FTR's booking. That match sucked. But fact is that FTR are still incredibly over and until Tony dropped the ball on their booking they were getting monster pops on a weekly basis. There's no reason why that can't be the case again. In WWE, they would never get a pop like that because WWE fans are programmed to not give two s**ts about tag team wrestling.

What has FTR done in AEW which surpasses anything in NXT?

FTR got pops when they came in because of their NXT run, it is what got them signed and bought them to the limelight; it is where the fans were 10x more into them. What has Tony done to grow their stock in AEW?

We have not seen the best of FTR in AEW and part of that is because the fans are too brainwashed to jerk for high spots and embarrassing botches, FTR are above that.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] so Lesnar returns unannounced and decimates Lashley.
Trips definitely knows how to give what audience wants to see.
Hopefully now we can see a proper uninterrupted match between the two titans. The previous one was marred by Roman's interference and Lashley was made to look incredibly strong against Lesnar with Brock taking much more bumps than him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's not all highspots. The ones doing that style are The Bucks and Lucha Bros. FTR, The Acclaimed, Swerve in Our Glory...until recently, reDragon, Team Taz were/are all fundamentally sound tag teams.

I never disagreed with you on FTR's booking. That match sucked. But fact is that FTR are still incredibly over and until Tony dropped the ball on their booking they were getting monster pops on a weekly basis. There's no reason why that can't be the case again. In WWE, they would never get a pop like that because WWE fans are programmed to not give two s**ts about tag team wrestling.

You just gotta be patient with WWE now. They are visibly putting in effort to improve their product. The tag team scene is beefing up. Good Brothers have returned as well (although I find them way past their prime). With what Trips delivered through NXT, it's a good enough proof to see what he's going to do with the main roster. Trips value tag team wrestling, we saw that in NXT with tag team matches maineventing the takeovers. The prestige of IC and US title has been restored. Walter and Lashley have been booked like absolute monsters with the titles getting due importance. Now Seth has won the US title so it's only going to get better.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

What has FTR done in AEW which surpasses anything in NXT?

FTR got pops when they came in because of their NXT run, it is what got them signed and bought them to the limelight; it is where the fans were 10x more into them. What has Tony done to grow their stock in AEW?

We have not seen the best of FTR in AEW and part of that is because the fans are too brainwashed to jerk for high spots and embarrassing botches, FTR are above that.

Their matches against The Young Bucks and The Briscoes by far surpass anything that they did in NXT.

The fans being more into them there is debatable. For one thing, they were heels in NXT. Secondly, they were massively over all year long as babyfaces until The Bucks sabotaged their run by not putting them over. The reactions that FTR were getting were far bigger than the ones they got in NXT.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You just gotta be patient with WWE now. They are visibly putting in effort to improve their product. The tag team scene is beefing up. Good Brothers have returned as well (although I find them way past their prime). With what Trips delivered through NXT, it's a good enough proof to see what he's going to do with the main roster. Trips value tag team wrestling, we saw that in NXT with tag team matches maineventing the takeovers. The prestige of IC and US title has been restored. Walter and Lashley have been booked like absolute monsters with the titles getting due importance. Now Seth has won the US title so it's only going to get better.

I am willing to give them a chance but they will have to give me something radically different to change my opinion on their tag team division. As it stands, they don't have any tag team on the level of FTR. Good Brothers are very good as characters, especially when paired with AJ. And Karl Anderson is not a bad worker either. But as a tag team they are bland and uninteresting in the ring.

Still, I welcome their addition to the roster. They are a tag team with some name value that might decrease the probability of more Usos/Street Profits matches.

 

[shaz619]

Their matches against The Young Bucks and The Briscoes by far surpass anything that they did in NXT.

The fans being more into them there is debatable. For one thing, they were heels in NXT. Secondly, they were massively over all year long as babyfaces until The Bucks sabotaged their run by not putting them over. The reactions that FTR were getting were far bigger than the ones they got in NXT.

The match with the Briscoe's were arguably their best ever I agree with that, but it’s almost like it never happened and very few knew about it because they were barely promoted on Dynamite. The build up was great, so was the angle, but again, very few knew about it. FTR have not been featured enough on national television. There is literally only one notable angle which is worth high praise and if you’re Meltzer you can say two I will give you that, beyond those two, they have done zilch whether it is politics or booking, that’s on Tony and AEW. They were heels in NXT, a reaction here and there means little when they are not booked on TV or involved in major programmes consistently unlike they were in NXT. Do you seriously believe FTR have been treated better then they have ever been before in that company and are genuinely happy there with everything?

With all the backstage issues, Kingston, Sammy/Andrade, the Punk/Elite stuff and situation surrounding Thunder Rosa. There are more and more people who would much rather leave the sh!t show but are tied up in contracts.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] so Lesnar returns unannounced and decimates Lashley.
Trips definitely knows how to give what audience wants to see.
Hopefully now we can see a proper uninterrupted match between the two titans. The previous one was marred by Roman's interference and Lashley was made to look incredibly strong against Lesnar with Brock taking much more bumps than him.

I look forward to RAW but not seen it yet.

It’s not just Trips, he has a team, he is a great delegator.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I am willing to give them a chance but they will have to give me something radically different to change my opinion on their tag team division. As it stands, they don't have any tag team on the level of FTR. Good Brothers are very good as characters, especially when paired with AJ. And Karl Anderson is not a bad worker either. But as a tag team they are bland and uninteresting in the ring.

Still, I welcome their addition to the roster. They are a tag team with some name value that might decrease the probability of more Usos/Street Profits matches.

Oney Lorcan and Danny Burch were considered jobbers before they made their presence felt after NXT crew invested in them and let them develop. Same was the case with DIY and American Alpha. Gargano and Ciampa were notable indie names but DIY was a revelation.

I don't like The Good Brothers. Their presence in that AEW-Impact storylines was clownery of the highest order. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

Plus one positive thing that I have noticed is that despite Gallows and Anderson being very vocal against WWE since their release, he swallowed his ego and brought them back. This is pretty uncharacteristic of Trips.

So I am looking forward to it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I look forward to RAW but not seen it yet.

It’s not just Trips, he has a team, he is a great delegator.

He is still missing Regal and Joe. They were out and out Trips guys. Joe was conducting talent scouting etc for NXT before he was released.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The match with the Briscoe's were arguably their best ever I agree with that, but it’s almost like it never happened and very few knew about it because they were barely promoted on Dynamite. The build up was great, so was the angle, but again, very few knew about it. FTR have not been featured enough on national television. There is literally only one notable angle which is worth high praise and if you’re Meltzer you can say two I will give you that, beyond those two, they have done zilch whether it is politics or booking, that’s on Tony and AEW. They were heels in NXT, a reaction here and there means little when they are not booked on TV or involved in major programmes consistently unlike they were in NXT. Do you seriously believe FTR have been treated better then they have ever been before in that company and are genuinely happy there with everything?

With all the backstage issues, Kingston, Sammy/Andrade, the Punk/Elite stuff and situation surrounding Thunder Rosa. There are more and more people who would much rather leave the sh!t show but are tied up in contracts.

I simply can't stand Britt Baker. Her promos are always the same. 3 inside references, you spent time in catering in the other company, Meltzer, calling her opponent by a silly name, i am a role model, Dmd.

She can't cut a promo without referencing inside stuff and mentioning WWE at every moment possible.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The match with the Briscoe's were arguably their best ever I agree with that, but it’s almost like it never happened and very few knew about it because they were barely promoted on Dynamite. The build up was great, so was the angle, but again, very few knew about it. FTR have not been featured enough on national television. There is literally only one notable angle which is worth high praise and if you’re Meltzer you can say two I will give you that, beyond those two, they have done zilch whether it is politics or booking, that’s on Tony and AEW. They were heels in NXT, a reaction here and there means little when they are not booked on TV or involved in major programmes consistently unlike they were in NXT. Do you seriously believe FTR have been treated better then they have ever been before in that company and are genuinely happy there with everything?

With all the backstage issues, Kingston, Sammy/Andrade, the Punk/Elite stuff and situation surrounding Thunder Rosa. There are more and more people who would much rather leave the sh!t show but are tied up in contracts.

They definitely feel like more of a big deal here than they did on the main-roster. Even with the schizophrenic booking.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are a myriad of issues in AEW. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't be criticized for all these things. But at the end of the day I will always be a supporter of the company because the opportunity that they present as a viable alternative to WWE is something I have been waiting for pretty much since I was a teenager. Yeah, they eff up a number of things but they also do alot of stuff really well.

As far as the guys who want to leave AEW go, there are only a 3 or 4 people who want to do that. And its not just their booking that is the reason for them wanting to leave. a) they think Triple H is a wizard who is going to wave a magic wand and turn them into main-eventers and b) they want to wrestle more and go back to the WWE schedule of wrestling 300+ days a year.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] so Lesnar returns unannounced and decimates Lashley.
Trips definitely knows how to give what audience wants to see.
Hopefully now we can see a proper uninterrupted match between the two titans. The previous one was marred by Roman's interference and Lashley was made to look incredibly strong against Lesnar with Brock taking much more bumps than him.

Will get back to you on this. I also have not had the chance to see RAW yet.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Oney Lorcan and Danny Burch were considered jobbers before they made their presence felt after NXT crew invested in them and let them develop. Same was the case with DIY and American Alpha. Gargano and Ciampa were notable indie names but DIY was a revelation.

I don't like The Good Brothers. Their presence in that AEW-Impact storylines was clownery of the highest order. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

Plus one positive thing that I have noticed is that despite Gallows and Anderson being very vocal against WWE since their release, he swallowed his ego and brought them back. This is pretty uncharacteristic of Trips.

So I am looking forward to it.

Now you're talking, Burch and Lorcan would be an awesome addition to the main-roster. And considering the fact that Ciampa has gone into witness protection ever since he had that match with Lashley, I don't see what's stopping HHH from reuniting DIY and telling something close to that same story on the main-roster. Ciampa and Gargano have that Zayn/Owens thing going (not quite at that level) where they will always be linked to each other in one way or the other, whether its by being at each other's throats or in a tag team.

Plus, if you want those belts to mean something you need to start putting them around guys like that. Who can have great matches and aren't The Usos or New Day.

Yup agreed. I hated them in AEW when they were coming out with Omega. They added absolutely nothing to the show. In WWE they were good when they were aligned with AJ. They made AJ look like a bigger deal as a leader of a faction, and the interactions that AJ had with them felt natural probably because these guys are friends in real life. As soon as they disassociated them with AJ and changed brands though, they became just another couple of guys on the roster.

I just hope them coming back lifts AJ to a more prominent position. Because he been booked/presented like a freaking jobber for far too long now...before HHH even came on-board. Which just appalls me because AJ is far too effing good to be treated like that.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Page is not a massive star by any stretch of the imagination, and despite being treated like royalty his ring work is still vastly inferior to Andrade’s, hilarious thing is he is blessed in the English language and still has no charisma, it actually says more about Page here that he is unable to surpass the aura of Andrade.

He was out for a bit hasn’t he and where has Cesaro ever been presented as the guy or world champion in any promotion? if I recall you may have been sour on him before he signed to AEW, I don’t know what has changed since then but working with some no names bums or glorified mid carders shouldn’t make him some GOAT now, Cesaro has also benefited from working almost as many singles matches in his brief run as Andrade has in his entire AEW career. I am not denying he is a great worker but to suggest Andrade is inferior purely on ring quality alone is insane. But this is Cesaro’s ceiling, you mentioned he is elevating his opponents, and that he is doing, Cesaro’s ceiling has always been talent enhancement but I’ve not heard the growing waves which are forcing me to tune into some random Jap dude

On Orange Cassidy, yeah AEW is mostly watched by hipsters though and he is over with that crowd but you got to be a seriously stupid person to enjoy his taps and slaps at this point, surely the fans have had their quick pump over him, are they still pumping to him now? From what I’ve heard that isn’t the case, by any stretch he isn’t someone who is ever going to be a credible main eventer, that’s like giving santino marella a plug for his shtick but all of a sudden this fag is a superstar, the longer Khan believes that the lower they will stoop

Well then by that logic getting over anywhere means very little in general, why even hire the guy, on which basis did they sign him in the first place, Mexico has produced some of the best stars in history it is a respected territory in wrestling it’s not some scummy independent promotion which produces untrained bums AEW hipsters jerk to, the fact that they are being praised and worshiped is a good reflection of the kind of fans which like this sort of product and the wrestlers they like to put on a pedestal in comparison

And on Andrade’s run in NXT, he wasn’t popular I agree, he was a heel. His job was to get heat, that was quiet refreshing

Let's just agree to disagree because I feel like we are going in circles and the debate has gone past the point of being productive. I do have a couple of things to add on Cassidy or Mexico though.

Re: Cassidy, he is very much the exception to the rule that comedy has no place in wrestling. I am not someone who has ever liked comedy wrestling but Cassidy made a fan even out of me. Nobody expects him to be a main-eventer but the idea that he only appeals to hipster smarks is ludicrous. For one thing, the guy can actually work...the match that he had with Ospeay at Forbidden Door was awesome and easily the best match on that show. And if there's anyone in that company who has instant mainstream appeal i.e. appealing to non-wrestling fans, its him. And in that, you always have an opportunity to make new fans.

Re: Mexico, you simply cannot compare Mexico as a territory to Japan and the US. I mean let's be serious here. This is a territory where midget wrestling and intergender wrestling are regularly featured on the card. Maybe there was a time during the 80s and 90s when Mexico was a hot territory and CMLL was one of the best promotions in the world but that has not been the case in a long, long time. I also feel that you putting over Mexico as a territory is contradictory to what you've been saying on this thread considering every spot-monkey working in the US today has been heavily inspired by Lucha Libre. Some of the matches that AAA puts on their TripleMania show every year by far exceed anything the spot monkeys in AEW do, or are even capable of doing.

I personally don't hate that style. I think it does have a place in wrestling. But let's not act like any of these guys are capable of being main-eventers anywhere but Mexico.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Saw alot of wrestling last week. Don't have the energy to talk about everything so I'll stick to the greatest hits:

- MJF v Wheeler Yuta. Awesome, awesome TV match. MJF reminded everyone why he is one of the top workers in the business today. It was a joy to see him wrestle again after such a long time. Everything here was logical and made sense...the wrestling was absolutely fantastic with both guys doing alot of creative stuff and above all, both guys came out of it looking better than they did going in. But while alot of credit should go to Yuta, ultimately this was an MJF match. He made Yuta look like a million bucks eventhough he beat him clean in the middle of the ring.

- Brawling Brutes v Imperium. Probably the match of this week for me. This is how you should do a tornado tag match. Have six guys just beating the absolute tar out of each other. I loved that despite the stupid props at ringside, they used minimal furniture. They just did a table spot and even that was probably because they were in Philly and kinda had to.

- Bloodline segment on SD! where Sami Zayn called Logan Paul a number two and got Roman and Logan Paul to break character lmao.

- Mox telling Page that he needs to keep his mouth shut because he says alot of stupid s**t that gets him in trouble. An understatement to say the least, but I'll take Page being made to look like jobber with his d**k in his hand any day of the week.

- Bray Wyatt return.

 

[shaz619]

Let's just agree to disagree because I feel like we are going in circles and the debate has gone past the point of being productive. I do have a couple of things to add on Cassidy or Mexico though.

Re: Cassidy, he is very much the exception to the rule that comedy has no place in wrestling. I am not someone who has ever liked comedy wrestling but Cassidy made a fan even out of me. Nobody expects him to be a main-eventer but the idea that he only appeals to hipster smarks is ludicrous. For one thing, the guy can actually work...the match that he had with Ospeay at Forbidden Door was awesome and easily the best match on that show. And if there's anyone in that company who has instant mainstream appeal i.e. appealing to non-wrestling fans, its him. And in that, you always have an opportunity to make new fans.

Re: Mexico, you simply cannot compare Mexico as a territory to Japan and the US. I mean let's be serious here. This is a territory where midget wrestling and intergender wrestling are regularly featured on the card. Maybe there was a time during the 80s and 90s when Mexico was a hot territory and CMLL was one of the best promotions in the world but that has not been the case in a long, long time. I also feel that you putting over Mexico as a territory is contradictory to what you've been saying on this thread considering every spot-monkey working in the US today has been heavily inspired by Lucha Libre. Some of the matches that AAA puts on their TripleMania show every year by far exceed anything the spot monkeys in AEW do, or are even capable of doing.

I personally don't hate that style. I think it does have a place in wrestling. But let's not act like any of these guys are capable of being main-eventers anywhere but Mexico.

I completely disagree, I am surprised you would put over that sh!t stain. And am not denying his initial popularity with his niche audience but to suggest he is over with casuals is beyond disbelief, to suggest he is over with that crowd is to suggest he is up there with CM Punk. Which new fans has Cassidy bought to this business, what million dollar gates is the company doing on his back? He has reached his ceiling and has stagnated, he is stuck where was 2 years ago. To remotely suggest someone who puts their hands in their pocket can work is crazy! am not a fan of Mr. Glass aka Ospreay either, he is a disgrace to the British flag. I get Dave metlzer the observer and the AEW cult desperately put over Cassidy when he was the flavour of the month for doing the autistic Chikara ** which is best suited to the cumstained indy events before 50 people, how can anyone explain this is why people are dying to see AEW, and especially at this very moment when they are struggling to sell tickets and even their so called main eventers have been forcing fans to tune out their shtick, the issue with these guys is they believe their own hype and the IWC feed their ego, thing is the IWC are not the be and end all when there are serious national implications at stake

If we are going there then why excuse Japan for the warped fantasies they live out in the wrestling world? from blow up sex dolls, to wrestling themselves, to imaginary wrestlers and using sex / gender in the most disgusting way you could possibly imagine. I’ve not seen that garbage over there? point is there is good and bad every where, but historically it is a respected territory and Lucha at its best emphasises technique as much as aerial offence, if you look in the right places there are high calibre wrestling schools which have been established there for decades, when these guys get to America they realise how easy it is to get a pop and become over reliant on spot fests but their base and access to knowledge/resource is deeper then modern indy scene / garbage style wrestlers who are largely untrained and I think it is more offensive to put that on a level playing field as a third generation talent who comes from a wrestling family in Mexico. Andrade has never been one of those workers who heavily relies on the spots like Lucha Bros and I saw the closest thing to the matches Eddie/Rey had when he got in the ring with Rey. And contrary to what you say he was a main eventer in NXT and had his best run there despite some obvious limitations, some of the guys you mentioned would never find themselves anywhere near such a prestigious singles title which meant something, this is why TK hired him, but given how clueless he is, it was a recipe for disaster, but a team of some of the best bookers this century had better success then him.

 

[shaz619]

They definitely feel like more of a big deal here than they did on the main-roster. Even with the schizophrenic booking.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are a myriad of issues in AEW. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't be criticized for all these things. But at the end of the day I will always be a supporter of the company because the opportunity that they present as a viable alternative to WWE is something I have been waiting for pretty much since I was a teenager. Yeah, they eff up a number of things but they also do alot of stuff really well.

As far as the guys who want to leave AEW go, there are only a 3 or 4 people who want to do that. And its not just their booking that is the reason for them wanting to leave. a) they think Triple H is a wizard who is going to wave a magic wand and turn them into main-eventers and b) they want to wrestle more and go back to the WWE schedule of wrestling 300+ days a year.

But what part of them being a big deal involves so many cold matches and lack of TV time, do you weekly look out for what FTR are going to do on Dynamite? I did when they were in NXT, it was one of the joys to follow the tag team division which was very strong in that period.

I don’t think they need a wizard to get bookings again and I also don’t think WWE is the only option. There are 4 or 5 we know off but it wouldn’t shock me if the number is larger given the events in the last 18 months or so, the number however big or small is concerning.

And it’s good you support the alternative but criticism sometimes can do more good then harm when literally everyone is blowing smoke up Tony’s behind every second and the company is reeking of severe nepotism at each level, at the end of the day I just don’t think Tony is serious about pro wrestling and AEW is like his own personal thing he likes to play with unlimited supply of daddy’s cash

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I completely disagree, I am surprised you would put over that sh!t stain. And am not denying his initial popularity with his niche audience but to suggest he is over with casuals is beyond disbelief, to suggest he is over with that crowd is to suggest he is up there with CM Punk. Which new fans has Cassidy bought to this business, what million dollar gates is the company doing on his back? He has reached his ceiling and has stagnated, he is stuck where was 2 years ago. To remotely suggest someone who puts their hands in their pocket can work is crazy! am not a fan of Mr. Glass aka Ospreay either, he is a disgrace to the British flag. I get Dave metlzer the observer and the AEW cult desperately put over Cassidy when he was the flavour of the month for doing the autistic Chikara ** which is best suited to the cumstained indy events before 50 people, how can anyone explain this is why people are dying to see AEW, and especially at this very moment when they are struggling to sell tickets and even their so called main eventers have been forcing fans to tune out their shtick, the issue with these guys is they believe their own hype and the IWC feed their ego, thing is the IWC are not the be and end all when there are serious national implications at stake

If we are going there then why excuse Japan for the warped fantasies they live out in the wrestling world? from blow up sex dolls, to wrestling themselves, to imaginary wrestlers and using sex / gender in the most disgusting way you could possibly imagine. I’ve not seen that garbage over there? point is there is good and bad every where, but historically it is a respected territory and Lucha at its best emphasises technique as much as aerial offence, if you look in the right places there are high calibre wrestling schools which have been established there for decades, when these guys get to America they realise how easy it is to get a pop and become over reliant on spot fests but their base and access to knowledge/resource is deeper then modern indy scene / garbage style wrestlers who are largely untrained and I think it is more offensive to put that on a level playing field as a third generation talent who comes from a wrestling family in Mexico. Andrade has never been one of those workers who heavily relies on the spots like Lucha Bros and I saw the closest thing to the matches Eddie/Rey had when he got in the ring with Rey. And contrary to what you say he was a main eventer in NXT and had his best run there despite some obvious limitations, some of the guys you mentioned would never find themselves anywhere near such a prestigious singles title which meant something, this is why TK hired him, but given how clueless he is, it was a recipe for disaster, but a team of some of the best bookers this century had better success then him.

Because he still gets massive pops when he comes out. If he had stagnated then he wouldn't be getting those reactions during his entrances or his matches and people would not be watching his matches That is not the case. He is still selling merch by the wayside, he is still wildly popular and he is still a big star. Again, you're misinterpreting my statements. I did not say that he was over with the casual fans. I'm saying that if someone who does not watch wrestling was flipping channels and came across Cassidy, its not difficult to imagine them stopping and watching him. That's mainstream appeal. The average person who is not a wrestling fan doesn't know or give two s**ts about psychology or realism.

That's a false equivalence. The Japanese promotions that do that stuff are underground promotions that nobody takes seriously. The three biggest Japanese promotions NJPW, AJPW and NOAH wouldn't be caught dead putting stuff like that on their show. In Mexico on the other hand, stuff like this is regularly featured on CMLL and AAA's cards. And always has been. The Mexico of today also does not resemble the Mexico of the 90s in any way, from where guys like Konnan, Eddie, Psicosis, Juvi, Rey, Art Barr, Jericho, Super Calo, Heavy Metal came out of/gained prominence in. The style has gotten waaay more high-spot driven and the decline of Mexico as a territory is evident by the dearth of Mexican talent in major US or Japanese promotions. It also goes without saying that the tangibles and intangibles you need to get over in Mexico do not even compare to the tangibles and intangibles you need to get over in the US.

I've seen those matches. And those matches work for two reasons: 1. because Rey is freaking Rey. the greatest luchador in the history of the business and he can make anyone look good if given the chance to do so. Against Andrade he wrestled multiple matches, including a two out of three falls match and if you're not having a banger of a match with Rey in that situation then maybe you shouldn't be in the business to begin with. 2. because Andrade can work the Lucha style very well. Its not at all surprising to me that his best matches in AEW have been against guys like PAC, Rey Fenix, Darby, Sammy...because they are all smaller guys who work that style or something close to that style. But that also demonstrates Andrade's limitations because I have seen him wrestle guys like Cody, Omega and Keith Lee, McIntyre, Bobby Roode too. And those matches were either meh or okay. There was absolutely nothing about those matches that told me that Andrade was something special or one of a kind.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But what part of them being a big deal involves so many cold matches and lack of TV time, do you weekly look out for what FTR are going to do on Dynamite? I did when they were in NXT, it was one of the joys to follow the tag team division which was very strong in that period.

I don’t think they need a wizard to get bookings again and I also don’t think WWE is the only option. There are 4 or 5 we know off but it wouldn’t shock me if the number is larger given the events in the last 18 months or so, the number however big or small is concerning.

And it’s good you support the alternative but criticism sometimes can do more good then harm when literally everyone is blowing smoke up Tony’s behind every second and the company is reeking of severe nepotism at each level, at the end of the day I just don’t think Tony is serious about pro wrestling and AEW is like his own personal thing he likes to play with unlimited supply of daddy’s cash

I did until very recently. And whose to say that won't change?

If it wasn't for The Acclaimed getting over, FTR would have been tag champs by now. And I don't see why Tony can't have Swerve/Lee beat The Acclaimed again and then drop the belts to FTR.

 

[shaz619]

Because he still gets massive pops when he comes out. If he had stagnated then he wouldn't be getting those reactions during his entrances or his matches and people would not be watching his matches That is not the case. He is still selling merch by the wayside, he is still wildly popular and he is still a big star. Again, you're misinterpreting my statements. I did not say that he was over with the casual fans. I'm saying that if someone who does not watch wrestling was flipping channels and came across Cassidy, its not difficult to imagine them stopping and watching him. That's mainstream appeal. The average person who is not a wrestling fan doesn't know or give two s**ts about psychology or realism.

That's a false equivalence. The Japanese promotions that do that stuff are underground promotions that nobody takes seriously. The three biggest Japanese promotions NJPW, AJPW and NOAH wouldn't be caught dead putting stuff like that on their show. In Mexico on the other hand, stuff like this is regularly featured on CMLL and AAA's cards. And always has been. The Mexico of today also does not resemble the Mexico of the 90s in any way, from where guys like Konnan, Eddie, Psicosis, Juvi, Rey, Art Barr, Jericho, Super Calo, Heavy Metal came out of/gained prominence in. The style has gotten waaay more high-spot driven and the decline of Mexico as a territory is evident by the dearth of Mexican talent in major US or Japanese promotions. It also goes without saying that the tangibles and intangibles you need to get over in Mexico do not even compare to the tangibles and intangibles you need to get over in the US.

I've seen those matches. And those matches work for two reasons: 1. because Rey is freaking Rey. the greatest luchador in the history of the business and he can make anyone look good if given the chance to do so. Against Andrade he wrestled multiple matches, including a two out of three falls match and if you're not having a banger of a match with Rey in that situation then maybe you shouldn't be in the business to begin with. 2. because Andrade can work the Lucha style very well. Its not at all surprising to me that his best matches in AEW have been against guys like PAC, Rey Fenix, Darby, Sammy...because they are all smaller guys who work that style or something close to that style. But that also demonstrates Andrade's limitations because I have seen him wrestle guys like Cody, Omega and Keith Lee, McIntyre, Bobby Roode too. And those matches were either meh or okay. There was absolutely nothing about those matches that told me that Andrade was something special or one of a kind.

Cassidy isn’t the embodiment of wrestling psychology or realism, he is popular with the hardcore AEW fan base but he isn’t some all time great talent that has created new business for the company and is now stagnant, in fact it doesn’t matter who you are, even the phenom, there comes a time you need to adapt. Is Cassidy vastly superior to all these people because he is getting cheap pop during an entrance that he no longer needs to do anything other then the same ** over and over again, he is a parody of himself, he doesn’t draw people to the shows and AEW barely sell much merch considering who looks after that department and he is certainly not going to be a top seller regardless. I have watched wrestling with people who don’t tune into it and all they ever said was that’s so fake, I tend to get more questions about MJF, like who is that guy? and if an putting myself in the shoes of a randomer, I would just laugh at how fake wrestling is and I certainly wouldn’t tune in for Cassidy.

It’s not, we compared the countries as a whole and not select promotions. Plus whatever you do these days can be watched by loads of people thanks to social media, the label of wrestling a sex doll follows Kenny everywhere, so this theory that it is ok for Japan and not the rest because not many people see it is invalid. Sure the golden era is finished, Mexico has experienced the same decline to the pro wrestling business in general and with the modern style revolving around high spots am not denying their shtick is indifferent but that there are good and bad everywhere, but I don’t think all the knowledge and resources are finished, every now and then a generational talent like Andrade comes along and he is blessed to have come from a wrestling family which may have shielded him from the none sense people love these days

Well that would be true if Rey had matches like that with every single opponent, it takes two to tango and we saw the perfect blend of the Lucha / US style this century outside his matches with Eddie and it takes a special talent to achieve that. I’ve watched them tango live and they elevated each other and Rey Jr looked like he was in his prime and it was Halloween Havoc all over again, I’ve not got had the same vibe since. He didn’t have as many singles matches in AEW and I agree there may have been times when he lacked motivation due to the horrendous booking, but in terms of technique he passes the eye test well ahead of the flavours of the month and over hyped “main event” talent

 

[shaz619]

I did until very recently. And whose to say that won't change?

If it wasn't for The Acclaimed getting over, FTR would have been tag champs by now. And I don't see why Tony can't have Swerve/Lee beat The Acclaimed again and then drop the belts to FTR.

Do you have faith in TK? if FTR and Briscoe’s took their angle to national TV, I’d not give a crap about what anyone else is doing in the division I’d have something to tune in every week and look forward to like I did with Punk. Right now no one is on FTR’s level and TK doesn’t know how to get their style over in his set up, they need dance partners and if not engaging storylines / some creative freedom / experienced guidance to flourish

Lee and Swerve are a horrible tag team.

With The Acclaimed on a run, one idea might be to turn FTR heel to open up the division.

 

[shaz619]

I think I should take a break from this thread for a bit, Orange Cassidy drives me nuts and any notion which puts him over

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Now you're talking, Burch and Lorcan would be an awesome addition to the main-roster. And considering the fact that Ciampa has gone into witness protection ever since he had that match with Lashley, I don't see what's stopping HHH from reuniting DIY and telling something close to that same story on the main-roster. Ciampa and Gargano have that Zayn/Owens thing going (not quite at that level) where they will always be linked to each other in one way or the other, whether its by being at each other's throats or in a tag team.

Plus, if you want those belts to mean something you need to start putting them around guys like that. Who can have great matches and aren't The Usos or New Day.

Yup agreed. I hated them in AEW when they were coming out with Omega. They added absolutely nothing to the show. In WWE they were good when they were aligned with AJ. They made AJ look like a bigger deal as a leader of a faction, and the interactions that AJ had with them felt natural probably because these guys are friends in real life. As soon as they disassociated them with AJ and changed brands though, they became just another couple of guys on the roster.

I just hope them coming back lifts AJ to a more prominent position. Because he been booked/presented like a freaking jobber for far too long now...before HHH even came on-board. Which just appalls me because AJ is far too effing good to be treated like that.

Think that's one reason why Ciampa isn't being seen on TV in last few weeks. He was aligned with Miz under Vince so for him to have his character tweaked and probably get back to DIY or Blackheart, he will need some make over from the comedy schtick of Miz and Lumis. Or the other possibilty is he is recovering from some injury.

Regarding Usos, I'd say the Bloodline storyline has been one that has been going on for 2 years now and has been the main thing going on in WWE for 2 years now. This kind of storyline can't be scrapped now or be finished early cause this sort of storyline is something you can only tell once in a career in one promotion. And tag team titles are a big part of it with Bloodline occupying all the titles. So I don't see Trips moving away from that arc unless it's reaching it's natural end point. And let's be honest, it's been the only storyline that's been invested in for long term and it's been a money generator for them. It has come at a cost of a lot of other names but it's something that has been done consciously and needs to be done consciously till it reaches its culmination.

So I can only see other tag teams going for that title once the storyline is nearing its end. Trips is smart enough to know not to fiddle with Bloodline (as Roman himself has said that everything involving his faction is done with Heyman's as the main producer and doesn't involve script from their usual writers)
Plus if he does something with it, that would mean upsetting your biggest star and WWE are not in the position of shaking things up when it concerns anything relating to the BL.

Meanwhile, we'll see tag team feuds that won't involve the titles as the division is visibly beefing up.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Cassidy isn’t the embodiment of wrestling psychology or realism, he is popular with the hardcore AEW fan base but he isn’t some all time great talent that has created new business for the company and is now stagnant, in fact it doesn’t matter who you are, even the phenom, there comes a time you need to adapt. Is Cassidy vastly superior to all these people because he is getting cheap pop during an entrance that he no longer needs to do anything other then the same ** over and over again, he is a parody of himself, he doesn’t draw people to the shows and AEW barely sell much merch considering who looks after that department and he is certainly not going to be a top seller regardless. I have watched wrestling with people who don’t tune into it and all they ever said was that’s so fake, I tend to get more questions about MJF, like who is that guy? and if an putting myself in the shoes of a randomer, I would just laugh at how fake wrestling is and I certainly wouldn’t tune in for Cassidy.

It’s not, we compared the countries as a whole and not select promotions. Plus whatever you do these days can be watched by loads of people thanks to social media, the label of wrestling a sex doll follows Kenny everywhere, so this theory that it is ok for Japan and not the rest because not many people see it is invalid. Sure the golden era is finished, Mexico has experienced the same decline to the pro wrestling business in general and with the modern style revolving around high spots am not denying their shtick is indifferent but that there are good and bad everywhere, but I don’t think all the knowledge and resources are finished, every now and then a generational talent like Andrade comes along and he is blessed to have come from a wrestling family which may have shielded him from the none sense people love these days

Well that would be true if Rey had matches like that with every single opponent, it takes two to tango and we saw the perfect blend of the Lucha / US style this century outside his matches with Eddie and it takes a special talent to achieve that. I’ve watched them tango live and they elevated each other and Rey Jr looked like he was in his prime and it was Halloween Havoc all over again, I’ve not got had the same vibe since. He didn’t have as many singles matches in AEW and I agree there may have been times when he lacked motivation due to the horrendous booking, but in terms of technique he passes the eye test well ahead of the flavours of the month and over hyped “main event” talent

Everything you said here about Cassidy is your opinion. I'm talking about facts i.e. actual ratings numbers and merch sales. Which he does drive. Also, if you actually watched his matches you would know that he doesn't just get a cheap pop when he comes out. For one thing, its a loud pop. And he gets reactions throughout his matches. You may not like him but to say he is only over with a segment of the audience is simply incorrect. He is a guy that nobody expected to take seriously but he got over on his own and proved alot of people wrong. Contrary to what you think, he is someone who does have appeal with an average person who does not watch wrestling because you can watch him for a minute and instantly get the gimmick and be engaged. In today's world where so many people have diminutive attention-spans, that actually counts for something. At the end of the day though you have to recognize that wrestling has changed. Good, fundamentally sound wrestling that's grounded in logic and realism will always be relevant. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a place in wrestling for other styles that offer something different.

You drew that comparison all by yourself. I was comparing the major promotions in Mexico, Japan and US. If we started to give these territories identities based on the worst garbage that their most low-rent promotions put on then we would be going down a very slippery slope.

And I'm not denying that the knowledge base isn't still there. But you said the key word yourself 'every now and then'. Also calling Andrade a 'generational talent' is very much up for debate considering he has zero drawing power in the US.

Come on bro you've got to be kidding me. I mean the comparison with Eddie was far-fetched enough. But to compare Andrade vs Rey to that Halloween Havoc match, which is literally one of the greatest wrestling matches of all-time, is a step too far. The matches between Andrade and Rey were pretty good but at the end of the day they weren't even better than the worst or most mediocre Eddie v Rey matches. Andrade is a good talent with a ton of upside who may not have reached his full-potential yet, but you are massively overrating him. And personally speaking, I donot see him ever being a main-eventer in AEW or WWE.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think that's one reason why Ciampa isn't being seen on TV in last few weeks. He was aligned with Miz under Vince so for him to have his character tweaked and probably get back to DIY or Blackheart, he will need some make over from the comedy schtick of Miz and Lumis. Or the other possibilty is he is recovering from some injury.

Regarding Usos, I'd say the Bloodline storyline has been one that has been going on for 2 years now and has been the main thing going on in WWE for 2 years now. This kind of storyline can't be scrapped now or be finished early cause this sort of storyline is something you can only tell once in a career in one promotion. And tag team titles are a big part of it with Bloodline occupying all the titles. So I don't see Trips moving away from that arc unless it's reaching it's natural end point. And let's be honest, it's been the only storyline that's been invested in for long term and it's been a money generator for them. It has come at a cost of a lot of other names but it's something that has been done consciously and needs to be done consciously till it reaches its culmination.

So I can only see other tag teams going for that title once the storyline is nearing its end. Trips is smart enough to know not to fiddle with Bloodline (as Roman himself has said that everything involving his faction is done with Heyman's as the main producer and doesn't involve script from their usual writers)
Plus if he does something with it, that would mean upsetting your biggest star and WWE are not in the position of shaking things up when it concerns anything relating to the BL.

Meanwhile, we'll see tag team feuds that won't involve the titles as the division is visibly beefing up.

I don't expect him to take the belts off them. I guess what I meant to say was I just want to see fresh tag teams and less Usos v New Day and Usos v Street Profits matches. I mean bro, just put the Hurt Business back together. What a missed opportunity that was. Those guys could have run RAW for a year. Instead, Cedric and Shelton get thrown in the jobber column and they set up MVP to betray Lashley and join freaking Omos, who might just be the absolute worst wrestler in any major US promotion. I mean I can't believe I'm saying this but I miss the Great Khali while watching him wrestle. But hey, let's see what Hunter does with this tag division, I'm definitely willing to give him a chance.

Btw, where's Timothy Thatcher? Seems somewhat strange to me that Hunter would bring back just about any minutely significant Black & Gold NXT talent but not that guy.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't expect him to take the belts off them. I guess what I meant to say was I just want to see fresh tag teams and less Usos v New Day and Usos v Street Profits matches. I mean bro, just put the Hurt Business back together. What a missed opportunity that was. Those guys could have run RAW for a year. Instead, Cedric and Shelton get thrown in the jobber column and they set up MVP to betray Lashley and join freaking Omos, who might just be the absolute worst wrestler in any major US promotion. I mean I can't believe I'm saying this but I miss the Great Khali while watching him wrestle. But hey, let's see what Hunter does with this tag division, I'm definitely willing to give him a chance.

Btw, where's Timothy Thatcher? Seems somewhat strange to me that Hunter would bring back just about any minutely significant Black & Gold NXT talent but not that guy.

Yes Thatcher was a guy Trips loved. Might as well be trying to bring him back.

Thatcher is a guy who can have good matches with the submission specialist wrestlers. Can also go on and join Imperium.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Do you have faith in TK? if FTR and Briscoe’s took their angle to national TV, I’d not give a crap about what anyone else is doing in the division I’d have something to tune in every week and look forward to like I did with Punk. Right now no one is on FTR’s level and TK doesn’t know how to get their style over in his set up, they need dance partners and if not engaging storylines / some creative freedom / experienced guidance to flourish

Lee and Swerve are a horrible tag team.

With The Acclaimed on a run, one idea might be to turn FTR heel to open up the division.

Not really. But then again, I've never had faith in any wrestling booker. I've never had Vince and I certainly don't have faith in HHH.

Well, that's an exaggeration. I think they proved just with that Acclaimed match that they are fairly good. Especially for two guys thrown together.

They could go down that road. But I would prefer if FTR have long babyface run on-top with the belts. They are amazing heels but they just turned at the start of the year. This is the time when fans should be cheering them.