The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes Thatcher was a guy Trips loved. Might as well be trying to bring him back.

Thatcher is a guy who can have good matches with the submission specialist wrestlers. Can also go on and join Imperium.

I'd prefer if Imperium stayed the same tbh. I like the European flavor they got going on. But Thatcher is a guy who absolutely must have on your roster just for the matches he can have. Heck, you could put him and Ciampa back together too.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Everything you said here about Cassidy is your opinion. I'm talking about facts i.e. actual ratings numbers and merch sales. Which he does drive. Also, if you actually watched his matches you would know that he doesn't just get a cheap pop when he comes out. For one thing, its a loud pop. And he gets reactions throughout his matches. You may not like him but to say he is only over with a segment of the audience is simply incorrect. He is a guy that nobody expected to take seriously but he got over on his own and proved alot of people wrong. Contrary to what you think, he is someone who does have appeal with an average person who does not watch wrestling because you can watch him for a minute and instantly get the gimmick and be engaged. In today's world where so many people have diminutive attention-spans, that actually counts for something. At the end of the day though you have to recognize that wrestling has changed. Good, fundamentally sound wrestling that's grounded in logic and realism will always be relevant. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a place in wrestling for other styles that offer something different.

You drew that comparison all by yourself. I was comparing the major promotions in Mexico, Japan and US. If we started to give these territories identities based on the worst garbage that their most low-rent promotions put on then we would be going down a very slippery slope.

And I'm not denying that the knowledge base isn't still there. But you said the key word yourself 'every now and then'. Also calling Andrade a 'generational talent' is very much up for debate considering he has zero drawing power in the US.

Come on bro you've got to be kidding me. I mean the comparison with Eddie was far-fetched enough. But to compare Andrade vs Rey to that Halloween Havoc match, which is literally one of the greatest wrestling matches of all-time, is a step too far. The matches between Andrade and Rey were pretty good but at the end of the day they weren't even better than the worst or most mediocre Eddie v Rey matches. Andrade is a good talent with a ton of upside who may not have reached his full-potential yet, but you are massively overrating him. And personally speaking, I donot see him ever being a main-eventer in AEW or WWE.

I think comedy wrestling does have a place in wrestling, but it isn't at the top. At best in the mid card. Comedy wrestling is good for brainless fun as a filler. I liked some aspects of 24/7 championship. I liked Breezango's segments in the fashion files. I liked The Hurricane and 2 Cool as well. But AEW did the stupid thing of putting Cass in the main event program with Pac and Omega. That feud was pretty awful in my opinion.
Even Rock n Sock had a very comedic element in there but they would leave that once the bell would ring. Same thing with Kurt Angle.

I think comedy is essential to pro wrestling/sports entertainment but it should not be overdone and be going for the top title.

Ospreay vs OC was great. But I think Ospreay could have had a better match if he was given another opponent.

 

[shaz619]

Guys don’t quote me about Cassidy I’ve had enough I don’t know if you read my post earlier but I stopped reading anything at the mere mention of his name, I can’t comprehend superficial bias from the Observer and Dave Meltzer playbook which isn’t remotely true on the level being spewed. The fact that we wasted all this time discussing that hot garbage is time which we will never get back again, who would even spend this much time trying to put that piece of **** over, you could have picked anyone else. I don’t feel like discussing this fixed bull sh!t in a world where people believe that piece of sh!t is doing wonders for the business, how pathetic.

 

[shaz619]

I think comedy wrestling does have a place in wrestling, but it isn't at the top. At best in the mid card. Comedy wrestling is good for brainless fun as a filler. I liked some aspects of 24/7 championship. I liked Breezango's segments in the fashion files. I liked The Hurricane and 2 Cool as well. But AEW did the stupid thing of putting Cass in the main event program with Pac and Omega. That feud was pretty awful in my opinion.
Even Rock n Sock had a very comedic element in there but they would leave that once the bell would ring. Same thing with Kurt Angle.

I think comedy is essential to pro wrestling/sports entertainment but it should not be overdone and be going for the top title.

Ospreay vs OC was great. But I think Ospreay could have had a better match if he was given another opponent.

There is, but then there is god awful comedy to. Putting over a guy who was a one pump champion there years ago even now is just cult behaviour, especially with the issues their business is having now and struggling to do well financially. And at the end of the day, as you said this belongs in the mid card but the worship put him over as though he is Bruno in NYC. There is a place for this awful garbage before a niche audience with a limited room for further growth, thankfully this evolution of wrestling is limited to the smaller leagues. The day it genuinely is drawing flies to the arenas everywhere I will stop watching, and admit I must be heavily out of touch. Or perhaps I already am and Cassidy is what we have all been waiting for all these years. Anyway enough stress for a week.

 

[Hitman]

This is freaking hilarious ) ) .... Much like Shawn from the 90's -

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There is, but then there is god awful comedy to. Putting over a guy who was a one pump champion there years ago even now is just cult behaviour, especially with the issues their business is having now and struggling to do well financially. And at the end of the day, as you said this belongs in the mid card but the worship put him over as though he is Bruno in NYC. There is a place for this awful garbage before a niche audience with a limited room for further growth, thankfully this evolution of wrestling is limited to the smaller leagues. The day it genuinely is drawing flies to the arenas everywhere I will stop watching, and admit I must be heavily out of touch. Or perhaps I already am and Cassidy is what we have all been waiting for all these years. Anyway enough stress for a week.

I'd have R Truth and Goldust as the greatest comedy wrestlers of all time. R Truth was actually pretty good as a serious wrestler as well during his time in TNA's early days.

 

[shaz619]

I'd have R Truth and Goldust as the greatest comedy wrestlers of all time. R Truth was actually pretty good as a serious wrestler as well during his time in TNA's early days.

Hornswoggle and El Torito are up there to, they got some of the best reactions in WWE and in doing so were huge draws for the company. Why do you need Gunther and Bobby Lashley in your “mid” card when your goof balls have so much upside, booker of the year has clearly displayed that.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Hornswoggle and El Torito are up there to, they got some of the best reactions in WWE and in doing so were huge draws for the company. Why do you need Gunther and Bobby Lashley in your “mid” card when your goof balls have so much upside, booker of the year has clearly displayed that.

Like I said, comedy wrestling has a place but it shouldn't be forced into every division. A few segments or matches here and there is fine. And comedy wrestlers don't really make a compelling case for going for any of the titles except 24/7.

Breezango was a very good mixture of comedic chops and good wrestling. Tyler Breeze was very underrated as a performer and Fandango had been improving consistently in NXT prior to release.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Guys don’t quote me about Cassidy I’ve had enough I don’t know if you read my post earlier but I stopped reading anything at the mere mention of his name, I can’t comprehend superficial bias from the Observer and Dave Meltzer playbook which isn’t remotely true on the level being spewed. The fact that we wasted all this time discussing that hot garbage is time which we will never get back again, who would even spend this much time trying to put that piece of **** over, you could have picked anyone else. I don’t feel like discussing this fixed bull sh!t in a world where people believe that piece of sh!t is doing wonders for the business, how pathetic.

Bro no offence but you need to understand that not everyone will ascribe to your vision of pro-wrestling. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes and there is no need to attack someone just because they like something you don't like. I have alot of respect for you and your opinions, even if I disagree with them and I expect the same from you.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think comedy wrestling does have a place in wrestling, but it isn't at the top. At best in the mid card. Comedy wrestling is good for brainless fun as a filler. I liked some aspects of 24/7 championship. I liked Breezango's segments in the fashion files. I liked The Hurricane and 2 Cool as well. But AEW did the stupid thing of putting Cass in the main event program with Pac and Omega. That feud was pretty awful in my opinion.
Even Rock n Sock had a very comedic element in there but they would leave that once the bell would ring. Same thing with Kurt Angle.

I think comedy is essential to pro wrestling/sports entertainment but it should not be overdone and be going for the top title.

Ospreay vs OC was great. But I think Ospreay could have had a better match if he was given another opponent.

I agree. But personally speaking, I liked that because OC for me is more than just a comedy wrestler. He's a beloved underdog babyface aswell and I thought that in that situation they did a good job of creating a doubt in the minds of the fans that what if he really did win the belt? And if you remember the crowd popped big for his comeback and his near falls at the end of the match.

But coming back to your main-point, there's an old saying in wrestling: "funny don't make money", which is 100% true and why there are no main-event comedy wrestlers. If OC won the World title than that definitely would be a step too far but I don't think there would be anything wrong with him winning a midcard belt. Btw I haven't seen Dynamite so don't spoil.

 

[shaz619]

Bro no offence but you need to understand that not everyone will ascribe to your vision of pro-wrestling. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes and there is no need to attack someone just because they like something you don't like. I have alot of respect for you and your opinions, even if I disagree with them and I expect the same from you.

Apologies if you feel I attacked you, wasn’t my attention, it is mostly directed towards the cult worship which exists e.g. hardcore supporters of Dave, Alvarez and everything they spew. But I was surprised by your views, I don’t expect anyone to scribe to my taste buds and to be honest at this point you guys watch this a lot more then I do, I have become more of a casual so am not suggesting my views are the gospel however strong they are, some things I can’t begin to comprehend but maybe it is age as well

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Apologies if you feel I attacked you, wasn’t my attention, it is mostly directed towards the cult worship which exists e.g. hardcore supporters of Dave, Alvarez and everything they spew. But I was surprised by your views, I don’t expect anyone to scribe to my taste buds and to be honest at this point you guys watch this a lot more then I do, I have become more of a casual so am not suggesting my views are the gospel however strong they are, some things I can’t begin to comprehend but maybe it is age as well

Well then that's my bad for thinking that those comments were directed at me. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[shaz619]

I agree. But personally speaking, I liked that because OC for me is more than just a comedy wrestler. He's a beloved underdog babyface aswell and I thought that in that situation they did a good job of creating a doubt in the minds of the fans that what if he really did win the belt? And if you remember the crowd popped big for his comeback and his near falls at the end of the match.

But coming back to your main-point, there's an old saying in wrestling: "funny don't make money", which is 100% true and why there are no main-event comedy wrestlers. If OC won the World title than that definitely would be a step too far but I don't think there would be anything wrong with him winning a midcard belt. Btw I haven't seen Dynamite so don't spoil.

I will be watching it on youtube but know what happened.

My thing is, I am not denying he was over. But he has been doing the same thing for a long time, and with the ratings he has blown hot and cold because there has been some good and also record lows to, but if we were to plot a chart, I suspect his segments would have been decent in the first 12-18 months and now on the overall trend would be on the decline.

But to me at the very minimum considering he is popular at his best then he is a support act, I am quiet selective with who I consider a “draw” , and in my eyes they are as follows:

- Mox ( even though I have not been his biggest fan at times)

- Jericho

- Bryan

- CM Punk

If there is a case to be made for someone in my opinion who is a strong support to these guys in terms of creating interest outside the hardcore AEW fans then it is MJF, one big positive for AEW is that no matter how bad they are, their core fans are very supportive but MJF is a guy who can drive viewership by stealing WWE and casual fans, his views on youtube are insane as well

But just think, if the company was ever to make the decision to go on the road, I highly doubt OC would be expected to headline even with injuries and potentially his shtick would lose steam faster, but thankfully I don’t think Tony plans to do that anytime soon

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I will be watching it on youtube but know what happened.

My thing is, I am not denying he was over. But he has been doing the same thing for a long time, and with the ratings he has blown hot and cold because there has been some good and also record lows to, but if we were to plot a chart, I suspect his segments would have been decent in the first 12-18 months and now on the overall trend would be on the decline.

But to me at the very minimum considering he is popular at his best then he is a support act, I am quiet selective with who I consider a “draw” , and in my eyes they are as follows:

- Mox ( even though I have not been his biggest fan at times)

- Jericho

- Bryan

- CM Punk

If there is a case to be made for someone in my opinion who is a strong support to these guys in terms of creating interest outside the hardcore AEW fans then it is MJF, one big positive for AEW is that no matter how bad they are, their core fans are very supportive but MJF is a guy who can drive viewership by stealing WWE and casual fans, his views on youtube are insane as well

But just think, if the company was ever to make the decision to go on the road, I highly doubt OC would be expected to headline even with injuries and potentially his shtick would lose steam faster, but thankfully I don’t think Tony plans to do that anytime soon

According to me, Miz is probably better on the mic than MJF.
The thing is, MJF to date has only done stuff unhinged and without any script or anything. Miz has had a certain restraints put on him due to the PG nature of WWE product and leaning on a little more goofy stuff. And considering the restrictions, Miz has done absolutely brilliant considering he is always pretty great to listen to and is consistently among the top on mic. He hasn't won a match in I can't recall since when yet he still has all the heat which is sort of an achievement. I don't know if MJF could revel in that sort of environment regarding what he can say or can not. In AEW, MJF has been one of the most protected guys. He has lost like 3-4 matches in 3 years. Would he still have the heat if he were to lose majority of his feuds? Another thing is, we've never seen Miz in a different atmosphere where he could be let off the hook. Would be interesting to see what Miz will do without any restraints or PG audience.

It's one reason I think Miz is one of the most underrated workers of last 20 years. AJ called him the best heel in business currently.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I agree. But personally speaking, I liked that because OC for me is more than just a comedy wrestler. He's a beloved underdog babyface aswell and I thought that in that situation they did a good job of creating a doubt in the minds of the fans that what if he really did win the belt? And if you remember the crowd popped big for his comeback and his near falls at the end of the match.

But coming back to your main-point, there's an old saying in wrestling: "funny don't make money", which is 100% true and why there are no main-event comedy wrestlers. If OC won the World title than that definitely would be a step too far but I don't think there would be anything wrong with him winning a midcard belt. Btw I haven't seen Dynamite so don't spoil.

I'd say OC is actually a good worker but his gimmick as much as it has helped him in getting over has also restricted him in showing his true abilities as a worker. He can definitely work. But I think he has reached his ceiling. I'd push him to change his gimmick in some time and see if he can reinvent himself. That's how the guys like JBL, Sami, Edge etc have reveled. Bradshaw was at best a tag team specialist in APA, but the character reinvention helped him reach the top. Wrestling is an evolving business and there should be consistent character reinvention like Y2J, Bryan etc have shown. One can retain his appeal with the same thing for so long unless you are John Cena, Undertaker, Randy or Trips.

What really made me stop caring for OC was his feud with Adam Cole. The visual of OC having Cole in the hug and Cole desperately trying to break free before them diving down the stage is what totally killed any interest in OC for me.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Apologies if you feel I attacked you, wasn’t my attention, it is mostly directed towards the cult worship which exists e.g. hardcore supporters of Dave, Alvarez and everything they spew. But I was surprised by your views, I don’t expect anyone to scribe to my taste buds and to be honest at this point you guys watch this a lot more then I do, I have become more of a casual so am not suggesting my views are the gospel however strong they are, some things I can’t begin to comprehend but maybe it is age as well

I stopped following those stupid manchilds long ago to the point I don't have any idea as to what they are saying or what narrrative they are telling cause there is complete malice in their intent and they are not half as influential as they think they are. Same thing with all the cultists of both AEW and WWE. The wrestling twitter is full of idiots only being there so as to throw shades at the other company.

The funny thing is that majority of wrestlers on the either side are on good terms and probably friends but it's the fans that act like there is some sort of war between good and evil. I blame Tony's philosophy for that as he brewed that culture of taking shots at WWE at every possible moment thinking he is some sort of competition to WWE when WWE is a global empire while AEW is still a start up.

There are some stupid twitter accounts dedicated to that sort of stuff which literally used to have my blood boiling. I started watching again as a means of momentary escape from the stresses of real world and it's kind of stupid in a good way that it helps me relax. Going one step up and reading all the dirtsheets and stuff only stopped me from enjoying the product for what it is supposed to be.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] Bloodline is the best storyline going on in wrestling these days. The addition of Sami has totally added a new life into it. Seems like the story they are telling is Jey getting disenchanted by everyone and he probably leaves. He'd either return with a swerve of Sami getting beaten or Jey bringing Dwayne to WWE to fix the problems in the family.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I will be watching it on youtube but know what happened.

My thing is, I am not denying he was over. But he has been doing the same thing for a long time, and with the ratings he has blown hot and cold because there has been some good and also record lows to, but if we were to plot a chart, I suspect his segments would have been decent in the first 12-18 months and now on the overall trend would be on the decline.

But to me at the very minimum considering he is popular at his best then he is a support act, I am quiet selective with who I consider a “draw” , and in my eyes they are as follows:

- Mox ( even though I have not been his biggest fan at times)

- Jericho

- Bryan

- CM Punk

If there is a case to be made for someone in my opinion who is a strong support to these guys in terms of creating interest outside the hardcore AEW fans then it is MJF, one big positive for AEW is that no matter how bad they are, their core fans are very supportive but MJF is a guy who can drive viewership by stealing WWE and casual fans, his views on youtube are insane as well

But just think, if the company was ever to make the decision to go on the road, I highly doubt OC would be expected to headline even with injuries and potentially his shtick would lose steam faster, but thankfully I don’t think Tony plans to do that anytime soon

I think it just comes down to if you like the schtick, you like it. If you don't, you don't. I wouldn't go as far as calling him a draw or even a future main-eventer. Like I said, that would be too much. But he can draw ratings and is major mid-card player for them. Personally, I really enjoyed his title win on Dynamite and it felt like the crowd was with him every step of the way. They tried to tell a story with this match and he wasn't out there doing his schtick. All in all, I thought it was a really well done deal.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] Bloodline is the best storyline going on in wrestling these days. The addition of Sami has totally added a new life into it. Seems like the story they are telling is Jey getting disenchanted by everyone and he probably leaves. He'd either return with a swerve of Sami getting beaten or Jey bringing Dwayne to WWE to fix the problems in the family.

It's arguably the best storyline in wrestling right now. So very entertaining.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you make of the Bray Wyatt promo on SmackDown? Any idea where this is heading? I mean I have to say I am very intrigued but also very confused. Some rumors swirling around online about Bray possibly entering into a feud with himself too (Cornette's not going to like that lol). I do love that Black Phone-inspired mask though and the persona he has created with it.

Personally speaking, I don't mind this kind of stuff as long as it is interesting and unique and not stupid and dull. Bray has been involved in both kinds of stuff. There was that 2017-18 period when his character had gotten so stale and uninteresting, and his promos so incomprehensible that I think most people were just done with them. His feud with Orton from 2021 was also utterly atrocious and stupid, and ended up completely burying him and The Fiend character. But on the flip side we've also gotten Swamp Bray Wyatt, which was the reason he got over in the first place, and The Fiend, which is arguably one of the coolest reinventions we've seen a guy do.

Not sure where this will end up but they've definitely hooked me. Suddenly SmackDown has become an absolutely must watch show.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you make of the Bray Wyatt promo on SmackDown? Any idea where this is heading? I mean I have to say I am very intrigued but also very confused. Some rumors swirling around online about Bray possibly entering into a feud with himself too (Cornette's not going to like that lol). I do love that Black Phone-inspired mask though and the persona he has created with it.

Personally speaking, I don't mind this kind of stuff as long as it is interesting and unique and not stupid and dull. Bray has been involved in both kinds of stuff. There was that 2017-18 period when his character had gotten so stale and uninteresting, and his promos so incomprehensible that I think most people were just done with them. His feud with Orton from 2021 was also utterly atrocious and stupid, and ended up completely burying him and The Fiend character. But on the flip side we've also gotten Swamp Bray Wyatt, which was the reason he got over in the first place, and The Fiend, which is arguably one of the coolest reinventions we've seen a guy do.

Not sure where this will end up but they've definitely hooked me. Suddenly SmackDown has become an absolutely must watch show.

tbh, the most interesting thing for me on SD was the car wreck opening with Drew beating the s out of Kross. Seems like they're going for some sort of character tweak with Drew being more aggressive and less friendly.

Regarding Bray, I have no idea what it was all about. I am still unsure if his promo was in character or just him speaking his heart out. Although the abrupt cutting points to it being a promo. If it was in promo, then Bray will be heel(don't like the heel Bray) plus already too many heels. If it was genuine, then I don't know how they can keep him for being a big babyface. It's intriguing nonetheless which is the most fun thing about wrestling.

On the other hand, taking Rey out of that miserable feud with JD was good. Enough of sad emo Rey going through midlife crises. Didn't like them turning LA Knight heel all of a sudden. But it's understandable as not many people are familiar with his work from Impact or NXT so he'll have to work over again to win them over and it's easier to be successful as a heel than it is as a face. Gargano has been having same sort of problem with crowd not knowing who he is. But Johnny is a natural face so he should remain that.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have a theory that Randy has probably recovered and they're just misleading the audience to catch them by surprise. SS or RR would be an ideal time to bring him back.

I think SS Wargames will probably JD rather than the Bloodline.

JD vs OC and Edge.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

tbh, the most interesting thing for me on SD was the car wreck opening with Drew beating the s out of Kross. Seems like they're going for some sort of character tweak with Drew being more aggressive and less friendly.

Regarding Bray, I have no idea what it was all about. I am still unsure if his promo was in character or just him speaking his heart out. Although the abrupt cutting points to it being a promo. If it was in promo, then Bray will be heel(don't like the heel Bray) plus already too many heels. If it was genuine, then I don't know how they can keep him for being a big babyface. It's intriguing nonetheless which is the most fun thing about wrestling.

On the other hand, taking Rey out of that miserable feud with JD was good. Enough of sad emo Rey going through midlife crises. Didn't like them turning LA Knight heel all of a sudden. But it's understandable as not many people are familiar with his work from Impact or NXT so he'll have to work over again to win them over and it's easier to be successful as a heel than it is as a face. Gargano has been having same sort of problem with crowd not knowing who he is. But Johnny is a natural face so he should remain that.

I didn't think that was a character tweak. Felt more like him just being very angry because of how Kross has gotten the better of him in this feud. And the fact that Drew has been maced, whipped and almost burned in the last couple of weeks.

Yeah that was actually the most logical thing they did. A father would never fight his son no matter how astray he went. Besides, Rey felt like he was stuck in the middle when the feud was mainly between Edge and the Judgement Day.

Yeah don't really know what to make of this stuff. Bray definitely reminded everyone why he is one of the most interesting and one-of-a-kind promos in the business though. I think just about everyone was questioning if his promo was real and coming from the heart or storyline based. I think its probably a bit of both.

I would have loved LA Knight as a babyface too but I think he's more suited to being a heel. Plus, with this audience that isn't that familiar with who he is, its probably best to establish him first.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I have a theory that Randy has probably recovered and they're just misleading the audience to catch them by surprise. SS or RR would be an ideal time to bring him back.

I think SS Wargames will probably JD rather than the Bloodline.

JD vs OC and Edge.

I dunno man. I've read a couple of places that his injury is very, very serious. Personally think that The Bloodline vs. a combination of babyfaces would be a much better match. Judgement Day and OC can have a 6 Man Tag. That'll be good enough for that feud.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I didn't think that was a character tweak. Felt more like him just being very angry because of how Kross has gotten the better of him in this feud. And the fact that Drew has been maced, whipped and almost burned in the last couple of weeks.

Yeah that was actually the most logical thing they did. A father would never fight his son no matter how astray he went. Besides, Rey felt like he was stuck in the middle when the feud was mainly between Edge and the Judgement Day.

Yeah don't really know what to make of this stuff. Bray definitely reminded everyone why he is one of the most interesting and one-of-a-kind promos in the business though. I think just about everyone was questioning if his promo was real and coming from the heart or storyline based. I think its probably a bit of both.

I would have loved LA Knight as a babyface too but I think he's more suited to being a heel. Plus, with this audience that isn't that familiar with who he is, its probably best to establish him first.

Actually I do think it's a tweak for Drew. When was the last time he was this merciless on someone. He was literally beating the crap out of Kross after presumably hitting his car. Last time we saw Drew, he was singing with Fury after losing in front of 70k people. This was the first time since his heel turn that he has really come for someone's blood and I think he needs to remain a serious threat like that. The Scottish Psychopath but more of a tweener cause I think he shows a lot more personality when he is a face. Only if he is consistently booked like one.

That has always been Bray's strength but his promos and stuff is the only thing I like about him. His matches for me have always been a bust. Like I seriously can't maintain any concentration in his matches. He would have been a much better fit in the AE or Ruthless Aggression Era.

Well Vince has beaten the hell out of Shane a lot of times so in terms of storyline we can expect anything in wrestling especially if Rey was a heel.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I dunno man. I've read a couple of places that his injury is very, very serious. Personally think that The Bloodline vs. a combination of babyfaces would be a much better match. Judgement Day and OC can have a 6 Man Tag. That'll be good enough for that feud.

Rhea is starting to get on my nerves with her constant bossing around and interfering everywhere without taking a single hit. Edge is pretty much a guy who has beaten lots of female stars in the past. Him holding back is very much out of character for him. Cause it's usually Randy and Edge who are not the guys who can get worked easily.

There needs to be a storyline to make the Bloodline vs Faces worth it. But the main story that is being told has been the internal friction in the group with Sami getting preferential treatment over Jey and Jey has been feeling left out. Plus how are they going to get all the faces to get pinned cause Roman surely isn't getting pinned in a tag match and Bloodline isn't going to lose.

I haven't followed any dirtsheet so don't know for sure. Heard Kyle o Reilly is also out of around a year.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Actually I do think it's a tweak for Drew. When was the last time he was this merciless on someone. He was literally beating the crap out of Kross after presumably hitting his car. Last time we saw Drew, he was singing with Fury after losing in front of 70k people. This was the first time since his heel turn that he has really come for someone's blood and I think he needs to remain a serious threat like that. The Scottish Psychopath but more of a tweener cause I think he shows a lot more personality when he is a face. Only if he is consistently booked like one.

That has always been Bray's strength but his promos and stuff is the only thing I like about him. His matches for me have always been a bust. Like I seriously can't maintain any concentration in his matches. He would have been a much better fit in the AE or Ruthless Aggression Era.

Well Vince has beaten the hell out of Shane a lot of times so in terms of storyline we can expect anything in wrestling especially if Rey was a heel.

Honestly he can do both really well. That's what makes him one of the tippy top guys in the company. My problem with him has been that he simply has not been the guy that closelined Brock Lesnar out of the Royal Rumble match in 2020 to a monster pop, and went on to win the whole damn thing to an even bigger monster pop. They've sanitized him and turned him into their version of a babyface with that stupid sword, that quilt, forced comedy segments. And then ofcourse he has been booked like s**t too. They put the belt on him during a time when there were no fans. He carried the flag for the company during that tough period and as soon as it ended so did his push. Compare that to Moxley, who did the same thing for AEW and was acknowledged and rewarded for being that guy during that period.

Drew is in desperate need of being restablished as the top babyface in the company. Because when you think about it, right now with Cody out, only he and Lashley are the real top-level babyfaces in the company. And Lashley has been really disappointing as a personality ever since he turned babyface and was separated from MVP. I get that Kross had to get this win to be established as an upper-card heel but going forward McIntryre needs to be one of the most well-protected stars in this company.

You can't just beat him like a drum and then expect people to consider him on-par with Roman or Brock.

I think Bray is actually a very underrated worker and someone who is deceptively athletic and mobile for his size. I've heard alot of people complain about his matches but thing is, that its hard to gauge his in-ring ability when he is booked as an unstoppable force that's basically out there to kill people and can't be beaten.

To me, he always came off as a bit of a bruiser. I also completely believed him as that Swamp-dwelling Cult leader. But after a certain point he too was a victim of bad-booking. And when someone is being booked like s**t its hard to take them seriously or care about them. From 2017 onwards Bray's booking went down the toilet. It was only after he reinvented himself as The Fiend that he lifted himself out of the depths of the undercard to to the very upper echelon.

Well that was hardly realistic though! It was entertaining as hell but its not like any of us were suspending our disbelief and buying into any of that. I mean have you forgotten Zombie Linda lol?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Rhea is starting to get on my nerves with her constant bossing around and interfering everywhere without taking a single hit. Edge is pretty much a guy who has beaten lots of female stars in the past. Him holding back is very much out of character for him. Cause it's usually Randy and Edge who are not the guys who can get worked easily.

There needs to be a storyline to make the Bloodline vs Faces worth it. But the main story that is being told has been the internal friction in the group with Sami getting preferential treatment over Jey and Jey has been feeling left out. Plus how are they going to get all the faces to get pinned cause Roman surely isn't getting pinned in a tag match and Bloodline isn't going to lose.

I haven't followed any dirtsheet so don't know for sure. Heard Kyle o Reilly is also out of around a year.

What's getting on my nerves is this feud not ending. I feel like the Judgement Day has injured Edge or someone close to him a million times and yet he keeps coming back to get his revenge only to be put out of commission and injured again. I mean can't these guys just come up with something new? Even during that Seth Rollins feud last year it was the same s**t. He injured Edge and brought his family into it. These guys went a step further and took out his wife too.

Edge has a limited amount of time left on his career. He's 48. He ain't gonna be doing this for too much longer. Like give me the freaking dream matches already: Edge v KO, Edge v Sami, Edge v Drew, Edge v Bray, Edge v Cody....I'm sure there are many more.

Well, that won't be hard to do. As soon as Reigns beats Logan Paul you have him do a segment on SmackDown where he boasts about how The Bloodline is ruling the roost and are on-top of WWE. That's a good enough entry point for Kevin Owens and/or Drew McIntryre to interrupt him and begin settling up that WarGames match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Honestly he can do both really well. That's what makes him one of the tippy top guys in the company. My problem with him has been that he simply has not been the guy that closelined Brock Lesnar out of the Royal Rumble match in 2020 to a monster pop, and went on to win the whole damn thing to an even bigger monster pop. They've sanitized him and turned him into their version of a babyface with that stupid sword, that quilt, forced comedy segments. And then ofcourse he has been booked like s**t too. They put the belt on him during a time when there were no fans. He carried the flag for the company during that tough period and as soon as it ended so did his push. Compare that to Moxley, who did the same thing for AEW and was acknowledged and rewarded for being that guy during that period.

Drew is in desperate need of being restablished as the top babyface in the company. Because when you think about it, right now with Cody out, only he and Lashley are the real top-level babyfaces in the company. And Lashley has been really disappointing as a personality ever since he turned babyface and was separated from MVP. I get that Kross had to get this win to be established as an upper-card heel but going forward McIntryre needs to be one of the most well-protected stars in this company.

You can't just beat him like a drum and then expect people to consider him on-par with Roman or Brock.

I think Bray is actually a very underrated worker and someone who is deceptively athletic and mobile for his size. I've heard alot of people complain about his matches but thing is, that its hard to gauge his in-ring ability when he is booked as an unstoppable force that's basically out there to kill people and can't be beaten.

To me, he always came off as a bit of a bruiser. I also completely believed him as that Swamp-dwelling Cult leader. But after a certain point he too was a victim of bad-booking. And when someone is being booked like s**t its hard to take them seriously or care about them. From 2017 onwards Bray's booking went down the toilet. It was only after he reinvented himself as The Fiend that he lifted himself out of the depths of the undercard to to the very upper echelon.

Well that was hardly realistic though! It was entertaining as hell but its not like any of us were suspending our disbelief and buying into any of that. I mean have you forgotten Zombie Linda lol?

That was 90s. I didn't know about kayfabe and wrestling being scripted back then. Even though every one would tell me it's fake and stuff but I wouldn't believe it.

Think we'll disagree on Bray till I start enjoying his in ring work. Like movement and speed isn't what makes matches great, but it is smooth transitions and the storytelling that is going on there most of the times. On the other hand, one can simply go the other way of matches being a spot fest (even though I don't mind them either given the occasion calls for it). Austin and Taker, even with their brawling style of work, they always told a story during their matches. But with Bray, as good as he is with articulation outside the ring, I haven't found his matches to be considered top tier in WWE in both of his runs.

I'd actually like a Drew/Brock feud around the Mania time. This time in front of a big audience but for that the upcoming 3 months would be crucial to raise his stock.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

What's getting on my nerves is this feud not ending. I feel like the Judgement Day has injured Edge or someone close to him a million times and yet he keeps coming back to get his revenge only to be put out of commission and injured again. I mean can't these guys just come up with something new? Even during that Seth Rollins feud last year it was the same s**t. He injured Edge and brought his family into it. These guys went a step further and took out his wife too.

Edge has a limited amount of time left on his career. He's 48. He ain't gonna be doing this for too much longer. Like give me the freaking dream matches already: Edge v KO, Edge v Sami, Edge v Drew, Edge v Bray, Edge v Cody....I'm sure there are many more.

Well, that won't be hard to do. As soon as Reigns beats Logan Paul you have him do a segment on SmackDown where he boasts about how The Bloodline is ruling the roost and are on-top of WWE. That's a good enough entry point for Kevin Owens and/or Drew McIntryre to interrupt him and begin settling up that WarGames match.

I was hoping for Edge vs Finn at ER to be the ending of the feud but the stipulation made it quite clear beforehand that it wouldn't be the last one. So it will probably end with another Edge vs Balor traditional match or maybe HIAC match is possible. Get it done with and move both of them in other directions.
I'd like to see Edge facing KO, Sami, Drew, Ciampa etc.
Pretty sure the final Finn vs Edge match (if it doesn't involve some stupid stipulation) would deliver even though it would have lost most of its sheen.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I was hoping for Edge vs Finn at ER to be the ending of the feud but the stipulation made it quite clear beforehand that it wouldn't be the last one. So it will probably end with another Edge vs Balor traditional match or maybe HIAC match is possible. Get it done with and move both of them in other directions.
I'd like to see Edge facing KO, Sami, Drew, Ciampa etc.
Pretty sure the final Finn vs Edge match (if it doesn't involve some stupid stipulation) would deliver even though it would have lost most of its sheen.

I would argue the opposite. I Quit matches usually tend to be the rubber matches of a feud. Where one guy beats the other guy so comprehensively that, that other guy has no recourse but to move on with his life because he uttered the words: I Quit. Ofcourse the screwy manner in which they pulled this off basically ensures that this feud is not over. And though Finn has a win over Edge you can't say that he was put over or got the better of Edge.

I think Edge & Beth v Finn & Rhea is a much more likely direction for this feud next.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That was 90s. I didn't know about kayfabe and wrestling being scripted back then. Even though every one would tell me it's fake and stuff but I wouldn't believe it.

Think we'll disagree on Bray till I start enjoying his in ring work. Like movement and speed isn't what makes matches great, but it is smooth transitions and the storytelling that is going on there most of the times. On the other hand, one can simply go the other way of matches being a spot fest (even though I don't mind them either given the occasion calls for it). Austin and Taker, even with their brawling style of work, they always told a story during their matches. But with Bray, as good as he is with articulation outside the ring, I haven't found his matches to be considered top tier in WWE in both of his runs.

I'd actually like a Drew/Brock feud around the Mania time. This time in front of a big audience but for that the upcoming 3 months would be crucial to raise his stock.

Let's see what they do. They seem like they will be doing some long-term story-telling with this Bray stuff. And based on the buzz they generated from just the viral marketing campaign my guess is that they will try to milk it for everything its worth which means big ratings for SmackDown.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Rhea is starting to get on my nerves with her constant bossing around and interfering everywhere without taking a single hit. Edge is pretty much a guy who has beaten lots of female stars in the past. Him holding back is very much out of character for him. Cause it's usually Randy and Edge who are not the guys who can get worked easily.

There needs to be a storyline to make the Bloodline vs Faces worth it. But the main story that is being told has been the internal friction in the group with Sami getting preferential treatment over Jey and Jey has been feeling left out. Plus how are they going to get all the faces to get pinned cause Roman surely isn't getting pinned in a tag match and Bloodline isn't going to lose.

I haven't followed any dirtsheet so don't know for sure. Heard Kyle o Reilly is also out of around a year.

They could do Bloodline v Brawling Brutes + McIntyre for WarGames as well.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] [MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION] What do you make of the Bray Wyatt promo on SmackDown? Any idea where this is heading? I mean I have to say I am very intrigued but also very confused. Some rumors swirling around online about Bray possibly entering into a feud with himself too (Cornette's not going to like that lol). I do love that Black Phone-inspired mask though and the persona he has created with it.

Personally speaking, I don't mind this kind of stuff as long as it is interesting and unique and not stupid and dull. Bray has been involved in both kinds of stuff. There was that 2017-18 period when his character had gotten so stale and uninteresting, and his promos so incomprehensible that I think most people were just done with them. His feud with Orton from 2021 was also utterly atrocious and stupid, and ended up completely burying him and The Fiend character. But on the flip side we've also gotten Swamp Bray Wyatt, which was the reason he got over in the first place, and The Fiend, which is arguably one of the coolest reinventions we've seen a guy do.

Not sure where this will end up but they've definitely hooked me. Suddenly SmackDown has become an absolutely must watch show.

I thought it was an emotionally charged promo and felt Bray/Rotunda needed to get that out. I trust Bray, 90% off the time he can get anything over, he remained a major star despite some truly horrific / peak Vince 50/50 booking.

The idea of feuding with one self is interesting, I don’t see it as completely taking the p!ss. If you think about people who go through horrific grief, they are in a way feuding with themselves afterwards and experience severe mental health issues, each person deals with death differently and maybe they will go deeper into the schizophrenia world.

There is a degree of suspension of disbelief needed.

In the past I didn’t mind Purple Taker vs Grey Taker or Kane vs Imposter Kane or the four faces of Foley.

I trust Bray, I didn’t think I would like the firefly fun house and that was used as a tool to develop the fiend persona and the two combined were some of the best character development arcs of this century.

Am a big fan of his, it’s insane to think he has a few ATG personas already, like he’d still be over as the cult leader of a southern backwoods family or The Fiend, in this age it’s a big deal if you can find one persona which is so engaging.

When he first won the title it was such a big deal and that promo on SD the night after was so good, I don’t know if there has ever been a star this over through so much inconsistent booking.

I don’t know where they will go with this but Bray has a knack for overcoming any hurdles along the way.

 

[shaz619]

The best match I’ve ever seen live was Cena vs Bray Wyatt in Brum here in the UK, they had insane chemistry. It was built on some exceptional storytelling, they had some real bangers those two during their feud. It was a house show, wish it was televised. I’ve seen Cole//Gargano, Bryan/Kofi and a few others but I’d still say that was the best, Andrade/Rey in Manchester was another one, I was surprised to find the TV audience only got to see that match for 10 mins because it felt like 20 min, that was the first time they fought I believe. That’s the biggest benefit of watching a big match live, I wish I was there for Shawn vs Cena in London. Shawn is like a diety in the UK he has some hardcore support, he was always in some huge matches but never won or got that moment with a title outside MSG, so when he won that match against the biggest name at the time was huge

 

[shaz619]

How many stars have there been who have headlined major shows, PPV’s of house shows with 2 or more personas in terms of noticeable character change?

- Undertaker as The Phenom, Ministry of Darkness Taker, Biker Taker, American Badass

- Chris Jericho as Y2J, 08 heel run and maybe one or two other characters

- Bray as a Backwoods Cult Leader and The Fiend

- Sting, Surfer Sting and Crow Sting

- Hogan, Red/Yellow and NWO

- Shawn, 90s face/heel and the born again Christan

- CM Punk, anti-hero and all conquering baby face in his comeback last 12 months

Others I’d say, Kurt Angle, Batista perhaps and DB

 

[BunnyRabbit]

They could do Bloodline v Brawling Brutes + McIntyre for WarGames as well.

Don't see Mcintyre put in a feud against The Bloodline so soon again.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I would argue the opposite. I Quit matches usually tend to be the rubber matches of a feud. Where one guy beats the other guy so comprehensively that, that other guy has no recourse but to move on with his life because he uttered the words: I Quit. Ofcourse the screwy manner in which they pulled this off basically ensures that this feud is not over. And though Finn has a win over Edge you can't say that he was put over or got the better of Edge.

I think Edge & Beth v Finn & Rhea is a much more likely direction for this feud next.

If Balor had lost, then maybe yes. What Edge wasn't going to say I quit without some external shenanigans which turned out to be them beating down Beth.

Faces aren't meant to say I quit especially the big ones like Edge.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

How many stars have there been who have headlined major shows, PPV’s of house shows with 2 or more personas in terms of noticeable character change?

- Undertaker as The Phenom, Ministry of Darkness Taker, Biker Taker, American Badass

- Chris Jericho as Y2J, 08 heel run and maybe one or two other characters

- Bray as a Backwoods Cult Leader and The Fiend

- Sting, Surfer Sting and Crow Sting

- Hogan, Red/Yellow and NWO

- Shawn, 90s face/heel and the born again Christan

- CM Punk, anti-hero and all conquering baby face in his comeback last 12 months

Others I’d say, Kurt Angle, Batista perhaps and DB

Roman as the big dog and tribal chief.
Brock as the next big thing and the beast incarnate.
Edge mainevented Rebellion against Brock back in 2002 or 2003 and then countless ppvs under rated r gimmick.
Kane as the masked one and the unmasked goof.
The Rock as both his regular gimmick and hollywood heel.
Nash as Diesel and Nash and NWO

There's too many.

 

[shaz619]

Roman as the big dog and tribal chief.
Brock as the next big thing and the beast incarnate.
Edge mainevented Rebellion against Brock back in 2002 or 2003 and then countless ppvs under rated r gimmick.
Kane as the masked one and the unmasked goof.
The Rock as both his regular gimmick and hollywood heel.
Nash as Diesel and Nash and NWO

There's too many.

I meant guys as legit draws or those who can be relied on to headline house shows consistently.

Kane was never positioned that way despite being over as the big red machine, as a solo act he was sidelined by Hunter.

Diesel is an interesting one, he was positioned that way but was financially the worst draw ever and was overshadowed by Shawn/Bret who were trusted more, but with NWO he was a draw

Brock is a good pick although the first run was brief and too gruelling for him

I am inclined to agree with Roman, while he is more over now, the big dog headlined numerous house shows during his initial push but it is somewhat debatable perhaps given the sentiment at the time, I don’t know how we can quantify the mixed reception but he was popular with the women and kids

 

[shaz619]

If not a shoot, looks like Karma has taken care of Page

 

[BunnyRabbit]

If not a shoot, looks like Karma has taken care of Page

Don't know man, injuries are scary regardless of the guy.

But Page, Elite, Punk, Sammy, Andrade etc all need to be told to stay in line.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I just noticed Adam Cole looks like an emasculated version of Wasim Akram. [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

I just noticed Adam Cole looks like an emasculated version of Wasim Akram. [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

Lol you reckon? he is too skinny / skinny fat

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Lol you reckon? he is too skinny / skinny fat

skinny yes. but the facial resemblance with Wasim Akram is too much.

 

[shaz619]

skinny yes. but the facial resemblance with Wasim Akram is too much.

I never saw it, is he back?

AEW released Ace Steele and it is being rumoured that they are considering buying out Punk’s remaining contract with a non-compete clause.

There is also a rumour that there is some form of interest from WWE.

I think it’s a travesty if AEW doesn’t work things out with Punk, it seems as though the others involved are getting away scot free.

On the flip side for Punk, why not get paid to sit home when he is injured anyway.

If he ever returned to WWE, I think hell would freeze. I don’t know how it would happen. But Punk being back in wrestling is the first step I guess but still.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I never saw it, is he back?

AEW released Ace Steele and it is being rumoured that they are considering buying out Punk’s remaining contract with a non-compete clause.

There is also a rumour that there is some form of interest from WWE.

I think it’s a travesty if AEW doesn’t work things out with Punk, it seems as though the others involved are getting away scot free.

On the flip side for Punk, why not get paid to sit home when he is injured anyway.

If he ever returned to WWE, I think hell would freeze. I don’t know how it would happen. But Punk being back in wrestling is the first step I guess but still.

no i just saw Wasim Akram on that pavilion show and i was like adam cole looks like him.

Heard about it. Tbh I've never cared much for either Punk or The Elite. I could take a guess that Punk's release can definitely rile him up and biting a bullet and open negotiations with WWE just to give it back to AEW. Plus Trips has already showed as a booker/promoter that he would get back people who he dislikes or who have talked too much ** about him (The Good Brothers) if it benefits WWE or his view of pro wrestling. So I wouldn't say it's outside the realms of possibility. But Punk is a volatile guy and is now quite injury prone as well. If they think his pros outweigh his cons, they will bring him in cause they have the money and everything.

Vince had made it clear he didn't want to do business with Punk cause he wasn't trustworthy and he stayed true to it. Let's see what happens.

It does look like Tony is on the side of Elite more than Punk.

But I don't get why would anyone be so desperate to have Bucks and Omega if one wants to spread his company. They don't draw. They aren't as big as they think or what Tony thinks of them. They have the same hardcore AEW fans who will continue to watch them. They aren't going to appeal to casuals or kids. I guess it's bad practice to make your employees your friends.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I never saw it, is he back?

AEW released Ace Steele and it is being rumoured that they are considering buying out Punk’s remaining contract with a non-compete clause.

There is also a rumour that there is some form of interest from WWE.

I think it’s a travesty if AEW doesn’t work things out with Punk, it seems as though the others involved are getting away scot free.

On the flip side for Punk, why not get paid to sit home when he is injured anyway.

If he ever returned to WWE, I think hell would freeze. I don’t know how it would happen. But Punk being back in wrestling is the first step I guess but still.

I don't know why but for last 5-6 months I have found watching wrestling a chore. Like I am not really really enjoying it. Some segments do get me excited and then majority of the show i just fast forward. I think I am just preoccupied with work related stress that I have been unable to enjoy literally anything for a few months now. I caught Covid back in July which went on for quite long. I have been fine only intermittently since.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I never saw it, is he back?

AEW released Ace Steele and it is being rumoured that they are considering buying out Punk’s remaining contract with a non-compete clause.

There is also a rumour that there is some form of interest from WWE.

I think it’s a travesty if AEW doesn’t work things out with Punk, it seems as though the others involved are getting away scot free.

On the flip side for Punk, why not get paid to sit home when he is injured anyway.

If he ever returned to WWE, I think hell would freeze. I don’t know how it would happen. But Punk being back in wrestling is the first step I guess but still.

This news has left me pretty depressed. And I feel like it's probably true. Punk's first year was one of the greatest years that any wrestler has had in the last 30 years. And his second year has been one of the worst years that any major-level star has had in any major company. Yeah, blame can be meted out to people and circumstances. But part of believes in that bonehead truism that maybe 'it wasn't meant to be.' I think at the end of the day, getting CM Punk as 'the guy' in AEW doing angles, storylines and matches his way was just too good to be true. The fact that we got stuff like that MJF feud, that Eddie Kingston feud, that Moxley feud and match after match on Dynamite (and Rampage) where he was just elevating young talent actually made it worse because it showed us what a creatively free CM Punk could do. Now that it has been taken away, I feel sadder than I would have if Punk never came back.

Because now I'm left wondering what if Punk and Ricky Starks had a feud? What if, that Punk-MJF saga continued, this time with the belt on the line? What if, Punk headlined a PPV against Danielson? What if, Punk started a faction with FTR? I feel like those are questions of mine that will probably never be answered now.

I'm past the point of blaming people. I think I'm moving into the stage of acceptance now. Though, this loss will take a long time to recover from. Because truthfully nobody can replace Punk.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The best match I’ve ever seen live was Cena vs Bray Wyatt in Brum here in the UK, they had insane chemistry. It was built on some exceptional storytelling, they had some real bangers those two during their feud. It was a house show, wish it was televised. I’ve seen Cole//Gargano, Bryan/Kofi and a few others but I’d still say that was the best, Andrade/Rey in Manchester was another one, I was surprised to find the TV audience only got to see that match for 10 mins because it felt like 20 min, that was the first time they fought I believe. That’s the biggest benefit of watching a big match live, I wish I was there for Shawn vs Cena in London. Shawn is like a diety in the UK he has some hardcore support, he was always in some huge matches but never won or got that moment with a title outside MSG, so when he won that match against the biggest name at the time was huge

I respect Rabbit's opinion. I can understand Bray's style not being his cup of tea. But I also disagree with it greatly because in my opinion Bray has one of the most believable styles of wrestling in the business. There's nothing pretty about his offense at all, but the psychology and selling is always on-point. And you feel like the stuff he does in the ring probably hurts. His athleticism is also astonishing for his body-type. He moves like a train between the ropes. He even reminds me a bit of Big Boss Man, who in my opinion was one of the best big men in the business (especially for the 90s) and highly underrated worker.

And I can't stress enough how important that psychology part is, i.e. knowing what to do and when to do it. That's the stuff that differentiates a good worker from a good wrestler. A guy who is just a good wrestler can only get so far because while he may be great in the ring, he isn't eliciting any kind of reaction from the crowd if he can't work. But a good worker will get the crowd to believe in HIM even if his offense is garbage. And at the end of the day, that is the most important thing in this business.

For me, the match that sold me on him as a complete package was the match he had with Cena at Payback 2014. I've sung the praises of this match many times on this thread before as well and I'm happy to put it over again.

Bray is probably one of the top-tier draws/stars in the business right now. And maybe one of the most interesting creative minds. The fact that he is as popular and over as he is right now inspite of the absolute dogs**t booking that he was subject to from 2017-18 and 2020-21 speaks volumes about the guy's talent and ability. Here's hoping HHH knows what a star he has on his hands. Honestly, if anyone should, it's him. Considering, Bray has literally come into his own infront of his eyes from NXT.

 

[Markhor]

I just noticed Adam Cole looks like an emasculated version of Wasim Akram. [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

They have something in common - both participated in scripted matches )

 

[shaz619]

This news has left me pretty depressed. And I feel like it's probably true. Punk's first year was one of the greatest years that any wrestler has had in the last 30 years. And his second year has been one of the worst years that any major-level star has had in any major company. Yeah, blame can be meted out to people and circumstances. But part of believes in that bonehead truism that maybe 'it wasn't meant to be.' I think at the end of the day, getting CM Punk as 'the guy' in AEW doing angles, storylines and matches his way was just too good to be true. The fact that we got stuff like that MJF feud, that Eddie Kingston feud, that Moxley feud and match after match on Dynamite (and Rampage) where he was just elevating young talent actually made it worse because it showed us what a creatively free CM Punk could do. Now that it has been taken away, I feel sadder than I would have if Punk never came back.

Because now I'm left wondering what if Punk and Ricky Starks had a feud? What if, that Punk-MJF saga continued, this time with the belt on the line? What if, Punk headlined a PPV against Danielson? What if, Punk started a faction with FTR? I feel like those are questions of mine that will probably never be answered now.

I'm past the point of blaming people. I think I'm moving into the stage of acceptance now. Though, this loss will take a long time to recover from. Because truthfully nobody can replace Punk.

It is unfortunate, maybe they will work something out? but with Ace gone my gut is telling me perhaps Punk wasn’t happy about that and he is a principle guy.

I have to stay off social media because the negativity from the elite shills is pathetic, calling Punk past it and disregarding what he achieved.

He was a stand up guy backstage for the youngsters, genuinely tried to help. It’s not about oh he is trying to be the guy etc when you look at what Punk has achieved in this business, you shut up and listen, plus he always wanted to give back and at his age that was a big plus, less drama, have fun and help people out along the way. But in a place with no leadership or structure things would get difficult.

All round it was a special run in the ring and on the mic, he reminded us why he was so good even in this era. Had incredible feuds with Kingston, MJF and Mox, it was a highlight every week when he held that mic. For him to have come back after such a period out and had the run he did was amazing. It reminded me of Shawn’s miraculous return in 02-04 and those thrilling feuds with the likes of HHH, Jericho and Benoit, in and out the ring it was beautiful.

Do you think WWE is a possibility? I can’t believe I am asking this.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I just noticed Adam Cole looks like an emasculated version of Wasim Akram. [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]

I'm actually kinda worried about Adam Cole. Besides the news going around that his concussion is very serious and could even end his career, I looked at a photo of him from NXT and one from around April of this year, and it's kinda shocking how physically weak he looks in the photo from this year. And I wonder if the guy is suffering from some kind of serious health issue. Hope he gets well soon and is able to wrestle again. Also, hope that he isn't suffering from some kind of health issue and has been on some kind of juice diet. He's an excellent wrestler and by all account, a great guy aswell.

 

[shaz619]

I don't know why but for last 5-6 months I have found watching wrestling a chore. Like I am not really really enjoying it. Some segments do get me excited and then majority of the show i just fast forward. I think I am just preoccupied with work related stress that I have been unable to enjoy literally anything for a few months now. I caught Covid back in July which went on for quite long. I have been fine only intermittently since.

It is a chore there is too much to catch up on and watch in its entirety. I am usually selective, will tune in for specific segments, matches or wrestlers and that’s it.

Sheamus/Gunther was booked on TV for example so I went out my way to watch that.

At the moment, I will tune into MJF (that segment with Regal was outstanding) he rarely lets me down, I am intrigued by Bray Wyatt so tune into that and also the Bloodline/Sami angle.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It is a chore there is too much to catch up on and watch in its entirety. I am usually selective, will tune in for specific segments, matches or wrestlers and that’s it.

Sheamus/Gunther was booked on TV for example so I went out my way to watch that.

At the moment, I will tune into MJF (that segment with Regal was outstanding) he rarely lets me down, I am intrigued by Bray Wyatt so tune into that and also the Bloodline/Sami angle.

I actually watched nxt halloween havoc yesterday and would say it was easier to watch than Raw and SD or Extreme Rules even. I only watched two matches nxt worlds collide before it. Had given up watching it since last year.

I'd say it's improved a lot since that nxt 2.0

The ladder match for NA championship was brilliantly booked. Fast paced action with a nice choice of winner. Waller vs Apollo casket match was also good. And then the mainevent Breakker vs Dragunov vs JD was very good. Seems like they are taking the gimmicks developed in 2.0 era towards in ring action now and it's looking a lot more enjoyable. And there has been less of Tony D thankfully. The guy simply can't put on a good match.

JD Mcdonagh looks like a younger version of Balor. The similarities are just too much to ignore. And he's a good wrestler as well.

Regarding Bray, I don't really want to see him as a heel. And they should start a storyline now cause these 2 min clips every week are not worth it for me.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I'm actually kinda worried about Adam Cole. Besides the news going around that his concussion is very serious and could even end his career, I looked at a photo of him from NXT and one from around April of this year, and it's kinda shocking how physically weak he looks in the photo from this year. And I wonder if the guy is suffering from some kind of serious health issue. Hope he gets well soon and is able to wrestle again. Also, hope that he isn't suffering from some kind of health issue and has been on some kind of juice diet. He's an excellent wrestler and by all account, a great guy aswell.

Don't know but yes he's a good wrestler and wish he gets better. I find Britt pretty annoying tbh.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

They have something in common - both participated in scripted matches )

Lol. I think 90s was an era where a lot of dirty stuff happened in cricket, not just in Pak Cricket.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I respect Rabbit's opinion. I can understand Bray's style not being his cup of tea. But I also disagree with it greatly because in my opinion Bray has one of the most believable styles of wrestling in the business. There's nothing pretty about his offense at all, but the psychology and selling is always on-point. And you feel like the stuff he does in the ring probably hurts. His athleticism is also astonishing for his body-type. He moves like a train between the ropes. He even reminds me a bit of Big Boss Man, who in my opinion was one of the best big men in the business (especially for the 90s) and highly underrated worker.

And I can't stress enough how important that psychology part is, i.e. knowing what to do and when to do it. That's the stuff that differentiates a good worker from a good wrestler. A guy who is just a good wrestler can only get so far because while he may be great in the ring, he isn't eliciting any kind of reaction from the crowd if he can't work. But a good worker will get the crowd to believe in HIM even if his offense is garbage. And at the end of the day, that is the most important thing in this business.

For me, the match that sold me on him as a complete package was the match he had with Cena at Payback 2014. I've sung the praises of this match many times on this thread before as well and I'm happy to put it over again.

Bray is probably one of the top-tier draws/stars in the business right now. And maybe one of the most interesting creative minds. The fact that he is as popular and over as he is right now inspite of the absolute dogs**t booking that he was subject to from 2017-18 and 2020-21 speaks volumes about the guy's talent and ability. Here's hoping HHH knows what a star he has on his hands. Honestly, if anyone should, it's him. Considering, Bray has literally come into his own infront of his eyes from NXT.

Bray definitely has acting chops. Can see him venturing out into horror movies and stuff in future. Has a very John Carpenter vibe about him.

Roman vs Bray HIAC 2015 was the only Bray match I enjoyed in his Cult leader gimmick and his strap match with Bryan in Fiend gimmick.

Plus I think the guy they teased is probably Bo Dallas.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] with Miz involved in a feud with Gargano now, are we going to see another Gargano-Ciampa feud/alliance? They can't be keeping Ciampa on the sidelines for the sake of not having any plan for him considering how much Trips loves him.

I'd rather like to see a DIY team rather than having them feud again.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It is unfortunate, maybe they will work something out? but with Ace gone my gut is telling me perhaps Punk wasn’t happy about that and he is a principle guy.

I have to stay off social media because the negativity from the elite shills is pathetic, calling Punk past it and disregarding what he achieved.

He was a stand up guy backstage for the youngsters, genuinely tried to help. It’s not about oh he is trying to be the guy etc when you look at what Punk has achieved in this business, you shut up and listen, plus he always wanted to give back and at his age that was a big plus, less drama, have fun and help people out along the way. But in a place with no leadership or structure things would get difficult.

All round it was a special run in the ring and on the mic, he reminded us why he was so good even in this era. Had incredible feuds with Kingston, MJF and Mox, it was a highlight every week when he held that mic. For him to have come back after such a period out and had the run he did was amazing. It reminded me of Shawn’s miraculous return in 02-04 and those thrilling feuds with the likes of HHH, Jericho and Benoit, in and out the ring it was beautiful.

Do you think WWE is a possibility? I can’t believe I am asking this.

Yeah, the mob mentality online is pathetic and so toxic. It honestly makes me cringe, especially when people of the current generation try to make those passive-aggressive jokes where they shoehorn something about Punk into some kind of meme/joke. These stupid marks wouldn't know good wrestling if it hit them on the head, and I think generally speaking, they are people who will run with the mob. If the consensus says Punk is bad, then Punk is bad. It's no wonder that a charisma vacuum like Adam Page is someone many of these people lionize and relate to. Because despite having zero personality, mic ability, mid-range in-ring ability and a title run that was an absolute failure despite being built up for two years, he is a hero to many of these people because he's a millennial cowboy with mental health issues who wears butterfly pants and comes to the arena in a Tesla! I mean ofcourse the generation with seemingly diminutive attention-spans whose idea of comedy is 20-second TikTok videos and whose idea of literature is reading tweets on Twitter would be absolutely astonished by seemingly insignificant little things that represent their surface-level values.

But enough about that piece of s**t.

The way I see things, Punk's career is, for all intents and purposes, over. It was very hard for me to see him returning after the media scrum and backstage brawl. But these rumors have reinforced what I feared. And its not just Meltzer. Wade Keller (who isn't a gigantic AEW mark like Meltzer) has been saying this for a couple of weeks, too. And he recently said it again.

I don't see him going to WWE. I mean hell would have to freeze over before that happens.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Bray definitely has acting chops. Can see him venturing out into horror movies and stuff in future. Has a very John Carpenter vibe about him.

Roman vs Bray HIAC 2015 was the only Bray match I enjoyed in his Cult leader gimmick and his strap match with Bryan in Fiend gimmick.

Plus I think the guy they teased is probably Bo Dallas.

I can't believe how they haven't done a The Fiend horror movie. Think of how cool that would be.

As for the guy being teased, there are rumors swirling online that it's one of the guys from the ROH faction The Righteous. I have no idea who these guys are and have never seen them work, but from what I gather the two guys that are rumored to be joining Bray's new stable are Vincent and Dutch, who I'm guessing had a cult-group like gimmick in ROH. And they are friends of Bray.

But yes, Bo Dallas is also being rumored for Bray's rumored group. He has already signed with WWE. And its hard to imagine him being involved in anything other than the Bray stuff, considering that the guy was basically a jobber who hadn't wrestled on TV in a year at the time he got released.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It is a chore there is too much to catch up on and watch in its entirety. I am usually selective, will tune in for specific segments, matches or wrestlers and that’s it.

Sheamus/Gunther was booked on TV for example so I went out my way to watch that.

At the moment, I will tune into MJF (that segment with Regal was outstanding) he rarely lets me down, I am intrigued by Bray Wyatt so tune into that and also the Bloodline/Sami angle.

Regal's comeback in that segment was just astonishing. Like genuine jaw-dropping stuff. And the best thing about it was that he was using MJF's own story to tell his story.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't know but yes he's a good wrestler and wish he gets better. I find Britt pretty annoying tbh.

Britt has fizzled out a bit as compared to last year. But she's still one of the top women's talents in the business for me...in the ring and on the mic. Her booking has also left alot to be desired. She hasn't had any kind of clear direction ever since she lost the belt.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I thought it was an emotionally charged promo and felt Bray/Rotunda needed to get that out. I trust Bray, 90% off the time he can get anything over, he remained a major star despite some truly horrific / peak Vince 50/50 booking.

The idea of feuding with one self is interesting, I don’t see it as completely taking the p!ss. If you think about people who go through horrific grief, they are in a way feuding with themselves afterwards and experience severe mental health issues, each person deals with death differently and maybe they will go deeper into the schizophrenia world.

There is a degree of suspension of disbelief needed.

In the past I didn’t mind Purple Taker vs Grey Taker or Kane vs Imposter Kane or the four faces of Foley.

I trust Bray, I didn’t think I would like the firefly fun house and that was used as a tool to develop the fiend persona and the two combined were some of the best character development arcs of this century.

Am a big fan of his, it’s insane to think he has a few ATG personas already, like he’d still be over as the cult leader of a southern backwoods family or The Fiend, in this age it’s a big deal if you can find one persona which is so engaging.

When he first won the title it was such a big deal and that promo on SD the night after was so good, I don’t know if there has ever been a star this over through so much inconsistent booking.

I don’t know where they will go with this but Bray has a knack for overcoming any hurdles along the way.

Top post. And I agree with just about everything you said here.

I had written a more detailed reply to your thoughts a couple of days ago, but the internet stopped working as I was posting and after that I was too angry to write the post again.

I did chuckle at you bringing up the Kane v Imposter Kane angle. I am actually morbidly fascinated by how good that angle could have been. And LMAO, who can forget ol' Luke Gallows coming out in that preposterous frizzy wig.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I can't believe how they haven't done a The Fiend horror movie. Think of how cool that would be.

As for the guy being teased, there are rumors swirling online that it's one of the guys from the ROH faction The Righteous. I have no idea who these guys are and have never seen them work, but from what I gather the two guys that are rumored to be joining Bray's new stable are Vincent and Dutch, who I'm guessing had a cult-group like gimmick in ROH. And they are friends of Bray.

But yes, Bo Dallas is also being rumored for Bray's rumored group. He has already signed with WWE. And its hard to imagine him being involved in anything other than the Bray stuff, considering that the guy was basically a jobber who hadn't wrestled on TV in a year at the time he got released.

Not following any news as it takes away the surprise package but just guessing. They can also make some out of the box decisions in terms of adding guys in that angle.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] with Miz involved in a feud with Gargano now, are we going to see another Gargano-Ciampa feud/alliance? They can't be keeping Ciampa on the sidelines for the sake of not having any plan for him considering how much Trips loves him.

I'd rather like to see a DIY team rather than having them feud again.

I don't know man. Can't say I've been a big fan of RAW as of late. Yeah, the show has improved leaps and bounds since when Vince was running it. But can we really call it a good show? Because some of the major storylines on this show are just absolute garbage. I mean Miz v Dexter Lumis...Gargano v Theory...Judgement Day v Edge in a feud that will go on till the end of time. Meanwhile, Ciampa and Kevin Owens are in witness protection, I'm guessing?

For all the criticism that people mete out to AEW (and rightly so) not enough is said about WWE's garbage booking. SmackDown is a far better show because it's not as long and has been featuring/booking Reigns, The Bloodline, Bray, Gunther, Sheamus well lately. Even Kross has been a largely good addition to the roster.

But is not a very interesting show for me right now. In alot of ways it is kind of predictable on most weeks aswell. Because every week you get a Damage CTRL (segment/match), a long and laborious Judgment Day promo, a good wrestling match in which Chad Gable or Dolph Ziggler lose and a bunch of other s**t that can be good, bad or mediocre.

Meanwhile, the guy who main-evented WrestleMania with Steve Austin has not been involved in a single feud ever since his supposedly biggest supporter HHH took the reins.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Been quiet few days.

So I watched SD. Basically skimmed through it as I haven't really been into matches recently.

The Bloodline segment was gold. Furthered the tension in it. Sami has started to look like a nice guy while acting like a fish out of water at the same time. Jey Uso despite his heelish antics is starting to gain sympathy with his family not on his side. But the best part of the segment was Sami forcing Jey and Roman to break the character.

Apart from that Bray segment was fine. The crowd was extremely hot for him. Still have no idea where this is going.

I'd like to see Pete Dunne having good 20 min matches or LA Knight getting more screen time with mic.

Kross has been very uninteresting and his push seems quite forced. Braun has been treated like a comedy act when he should be an intense monster.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Been quiet few days.

So I watched SD. Basically skimmed through it as I haven't really been into matches recently.

The Bloodline segment was gold. Furthered the tension in it. Sami has started to look like a nice guy while acting like a fish out of water at the same time. Jey Uso despite his heelish antics is starting to gain sympathy with his family not on his side. But the best part of the segment was Sami forcing Jey and Roman to break the character.

Apart from that Bray segment was fine. The crowd was extremely hot for him. Still have no idea where this is going.

I'd like to see Pete Dunne having good 20 min matches or LA Knight getting more screen time with mic.

Kross has been very uninteresting and his push seems quite forced. Braun has been treated like a comedy act when he should be an intense monster.

I think we're both just sad because Punk is leaving wrestling, and the trampoline enthusiasts are coming back. I'm kinda sad because of Pakistan's shambolic performance the other day as well.

The Bloodline segment was hilarious because you could see that Roman and Jey Uso were trying their very best (and failing) to not break character. But Sami Zayn is so freakin' good...especially with his comedic timing. The moment he told Jey that he wasn't being very Ussey, you could see Jey and Roman just trying their best not to burst out laughing.

From what I understand, they taped this show and next week's show at the same time. Because they are going to Saudi. So I'm guessing all that much won't happen next week too. I am looking forward to Gunter v Rey though. Gunther is amazing at having great, credible matches with smaller guys. And Rey is a bonafide legend and the greatest luchador in the history of the business...so that should be great. LA Knight is making his debut next week too.

The greatest news I read today was that WWE is apparently abolishing the Hell in A Cell PPV. Because apparently the match means alot to Triple H. Thank goodness they are doing this and I really hope we don't see another TLC and Money in the Bank PPV either. These are special matches that mean far too much to be trivialized in the form of PPVs every year. They should be used to end a simmering blood feud, rather than be done just because they have a spot on the calendar every year. Money in the Bank should be on WrestleMania, like it used to be. And instead of WWE Hell in A Cell or WWE TLC, they need to return to classic PPV names like WWE Armageddon, Vengeance, Bad Blood, No Way Out, Unforgiven. Names that left something to the imagination.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think we're both just sad because Punk is leaving wrestling, and the trampoline enthusiasts are coming back. I'm kinda sad because of Pakistan's shambolic performance the other day as well.

The Bloodline segment was hilarious because you could see that Roman and Jey Uso were trying their very best (and failing) to not break character. But Sami Zayn is so freakin' good...especially with his comedic timing. The moment he told Jey that he wasn't being very Ussey, you could see Jey and Roman just trying their best not to burst out laughing.

From what I understand, they taped this show and next week's show at the same time. Because they are going to Saudi. So I'm guessing all that much won't happen next week too. I am looking forward to Gunter v Rey though. Gunther is amazing at having great, credible matches with smaller guys. And Rey is a bonafide legend and the greatest luchador in the history of the business...so that should be great. LA Knight is making his debut next week too.

The greatest news I read today was that WWE is apparently abolishing the Hell in A Cell PPV. Because apparently the match means alot to Triple H. Thank goodness they are doing this and I really hope we don't see another TLC and Money in the Bank PPV either. These are special matches that mean far too much to be trivialized in the form of PPVs every year. They should be used to end a simmering blood feud, rather than be done just because they have a spot on the calendar every year. Money in the Bank should be on WrestleMania, like it used to be. And instead of WWE Hell in A Cell or WWE TLC, they need to return to classic PPV names like WWE Armageddon, Vengeance, Bad Blood, No Way Out, Unforgiven. Names that left something to the imagination.

La knight made his debut last week i think against Mansoor.

I'd like to see No Way Out, Taboo Tuesday and Unforgiven or New Year's Revolution to return. Vengeance is already being used by NXT as Vengeance Day. They may not be able to use Armageddon cause of the woke culture these days. Judgement Day can't be used because of the stable. Hope they don't bring back Great Balls Of Fire. Starrcade could also be used. I'd really like HIAC, ER, TLC to go away as these stipulations should be used as feud enders or adding blood to the feud.

I am fine with MITB though as they put a visible effort in it as the 5th biggest show. Plus with 2 MITBs now (Men and Women's), and Trips policy of having less matches on PPVs, it'd be difficult to have it on Mania.


Sami is great. Hearing he will turn face around Rumble time as one of the PPVs around then will be in Montreal where Sami is treated like the biggest babyface in the world.

That Ucey line was amazingly delivered. Jey and Roman were visibly having so much fun then. It is usually reported Usos are jokers and make everyone laugh backstage and Roman is an extremely fun guy to be around.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Regarding Punk, I think, if he feels betrayed, he would try to get back at AEW and this wouldn't rule out a return to WWE as WWE has a history of making deal with a devil. Brock and Vince's relation were probably just as bad back in the days. So was Bret's. So it is entirely possible.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

La knight made his debut last week i think against Mansoor.

I'd like to see No Way Out, Taboo Tuesday and Unforgiven or New Year's Revolution to return. Vengeance is already being used by NXT as Vengeance Day. They may not be able to use Armageddon cause of the woke culture these days. Judgement Day can't be used because of the stable. Hope they don't bring back Great Balls Of Fire. Starrcade could also be used. I'd really like HIAC, ER, TLC to go away as these stipulations should be used as feud enders or adding blood to the feud.

I am fine with MITB though as they put a visible effort in it as the 5th biggest show. Plus with 2 MITBs now (Men and Women's), and Trips policy of having less matches on PPVs, it'd be difficult to have it on Mania.


Sami is great. Hearing he will turn face around Rumble time as one of the PPVs around then will be in Montreal where Sami is treated like the biggest babyface in the world.

That Ucey line was amazingly delivered. Jey and Roman were visibly having so much fun then. It is usually reported Usos are jokers and make everyone laugh backstage and Roman is an extremely fun guy to be around.

Nah I don't think using Armageddon as a PPV name would hurt anyone. With that PPV they could use that iconic theme 'The End Is Here' too, which they used for that PPV back in the day. But maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. Starrcade is heavily associated with WCW and was basically WCW's version of WrestleMania. So I don't think using that name would be great. But they can definitely use other WCW PPV names, as an homage...which they have in WWE and NXT. They used an ECW PPV name with an NXT show recently: Heatwave.

I think in general I want to return to the days of PPV names where something was left up to the imagination.

Personally I think MITB hasn't been good for a number of years now. I mean I can't even remember who won the MITB last few years before Theory. It has never meant less than it does now. And we have seen a number of guys win it and fail to cash in. Putting it on WrestleMania gives it greater importance, a bigger limelight and forces you to put some of your best wrestlers in that match. Because historically, that match has almost always been a show-stealer.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Regarding Punk, I think, if he feels betrayed, he would try to get back at AEW and this wouldn't rule out a return to WWE as WWE has a history of making deal with a devil. Brock and Vince's relation were probably just as bad back in the days. So was Bret's. So it is entirely possible.

I don't believe that Punk is the type of person who would do something like going to WWE just to spite people he is mad at. For one thing, there has been no indication that he is mad or even angry with Tony Khan. And that's the only person he would primarily be hurting by going to WWE.

Secondly, he said throughout his AEW run that he was there to make a difference and do something different. He wanted to work with young talent and elevate them, he wanted to be involved in interesting, reality-based storylines, and he wanted to make a difference on AEW's bottom-line. In WWE, there is not much left for him to do. And besides main-eventing WrestleMania he has done just about everything there is to do in WWE.

Thirdly, there's the question of repairing bridges with Triple H and money. After seeing his media scrum, do you seriously believe that Punk is the type of guy who does not hold grudges? I mean, love him or hate him, fact is he believes deeply in his principles and is not willing to compromise an inch. He has held grudges with people who were his best friends, what makes you think that he would be willing to build bridges with Triple H? The guy who actively tried to bury him when Punk was the hottest thing in wrestling.

As far as money is concerned, I think he has more than enough f you money. And likely will be a couple of million dollars richer once his contract buyout is negotiated. So he definitely does not need the money.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't believe that Punk is the type of person who would do something like going to WWE just to spite people he is mad at. For one thing, there has been no indication that he is mad or even angry with Tony Khan. And that's the only person he would primarily be hurting by going to WWE.

Secondly, he said throughout his AEW run that he was there to make a difference and do something different. He wanted to work with young talent and elevate them, he wanted to be involved in interesting, reality-based storylines, and he wanted to make a difference on AEW's bottom-line. In WWE, there is not much left for him to do. And besides main-eventing WrestleMania he has done just about everything there is to do in WWE.

Thirdly, there's the question of repairing bridges with Triple H and money. After seeing his media scrum, do you seriously believe that Punk is the type of guy who does not hold grudges? I mean, love him or hate him, fact is he believes deeply in his principles and is not willing to compromise an inch. He has held grudges with people who were his best friends, what makes you think that he would be willing to build bridges with Triple H? The guy who actively tried to bury him when Punk was the hottest thing in wrestling.

As far as money is concerned, I think he has more than enough f you money. And likely will be a couple of million dollars richer once his contract buyout is negotiated. So he definitely does not need the money.

With Punk at 44, maybe he might look towards going out with a bang. He's probably hasn't said anything cause of the legal process involved. WWE have big money and their negotiation powers are unparalleled. Bret still holds a grudge against Goldberg while Vince probably ****** him off more. Yet he's fine with WWE. Before signing with AEW, he did say he would be willing to listen to WWE. Plus Vince and Amann are gone now. Trips is a smart businessman, has already brought back Good Brothers who said so much ** about him. He is open for a Y2J return as well.

Punk wasn't entirely true when he said he wanted to work with young talent.Aren't Darby and MJF the only young guys to have a proper feud with Punk? I may be wrong. Just saying there's a possibility although I don't think WWE needs Punk.

Heard there was some altercation between Jericho and Punk and Jericho told him he was a disgrace and a cancer.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Nah I don't think using Armageddon as a PPV name would hurt anyone. With that PPV they could use that iconic theme 'The End Is Here' too, which they used for that PPV back in the day. But maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. Starrcade is heavily associated with WCW and was basically WCW's version of WrestleMania. So I don't think using that name would be great. But they can definitely use other WCW PPV names, as an homage...which they have in WWE and NXT. They used an ECW PPV name with an NXT show recently: Heatwave.

I think in general I want to return to the days of PPV names where something was left up to the imagination.

Personally I think MITB hasn't been good for a number of years now. I mean I can't even remember who won the MITB last few years before Theory. It has never meant less than it does now. And we have seen a number of guys win it and fail to cash in. Putting it on WrestleMania gives it greater importance, a bigger limelight and forces you to put some of your best wrestlers in that match. Because historically, that match has almost always been a show-stealer.

When someone mentions Armageddon, the first thought that comes to me is that legendary 6 man HIAC Rock vs Austin vs Angle vs Taker vs Trips vs Rikishi. That was the first PPV I was able to watch live.

It was Vince who didn't want to use WCW names. Trips has already used Wargames and is even using SS with Wargames this year.

They did use Starrcade as a live event a few years back I remember.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

With Punk at 44, maybe he might look towards going out with a bang. He's probably hasn't said anything cause of the legal process involved. WWE have big money and their negotiation powers are unparalleled. Bret still holds a grudge against Goldberg while Vince probably ****** him off more. Yet he's fine with WWE. Before signing with AEW, he did say he would be willing to listen to WWE. Plus Vince and Amann are gone now. Trips is a smart businessman, has already brought back Good Brothers who said so much ** about him. He is open for a Y2J return as well.

Punk wasn't entirely true when he said he wanted to work with young talent.Aren't Darby and MJF the only young guys to have a proper feud with Punk? I may be wrong. Just saying there's a possibility although I don't think WWE needs Punk.

Heard there was some altercation between Jericho and Punk and Jericho told him he was a disgrace and a cancer.

I don't think that's true, though. Vince betrayed and double-crossed Bret. But he didn't effectively end any chance Bret had to make money doing what he loved. Goldberg effectively ended his wrestling career.

Also, don't think Good Brothers are in any way comparable to Punk. Punk hated being in WWE, especially during his last year. And his problems with Triple H continued long after 2012/13. Ofcourse Triple H, being in the position that he is today, would say that. But I think he hates both Jericho and Punk's guts. Especially Punk. Because Punk told Triple H to his face what he thought about him.

It's not just about having a proper feud. He had matches with guys like Powerhouse Hobbs, Daniel Garcia, Lee Moriarty, Max Caster, Wardlow, John Silver on Dynamite & Rampage and elevated pretty much all those guys by having matches that made sense and told a story. There's always a possibility. But if I were a betting man, I would not bet on this.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't think that's true, though. Vince betrayed and double-crossed Bret. But he didn't effectively end any chance Bret had to make money doing what he loved. Goldberg effectively ended his wrestling career.

Also, don't think Good Brothers are in any way comparable to Punk. Punk hated being in WWE, especially during his last year. And his problems with Triple H continued long after 2012/13. Ofcourse Triple H, being in the position that he is today, would say that. But I think he hates both Jericho and Punk's guts. Especially Punk. Because Punk told Triple H to his face what he thought about him.

It's not just about having a proper feud. He had matches with guys like Powerhouse Hobbs, Daniel Garcia, Lee Moriarty, Max Caster, Wardlow, John Silver on Dynamite & Rampage and elevated pretty much all those guys by having matches that made sense and told a story. There's always a possibility. But if I were a betting man, I would not bet on this.

I'll disagree on it a little. If Trips burying Punk was based on that Punk only likes the creative which means him coming out on top and dislikes everything else, then I'd side with Trips here. Not saying what Trips did was right and I legit hated him for his reign of terror and stuff he did behind the scenes with The Kliq.

I don't get how Wardlow was elevated by either Jericho or Punk or even Cody. He was basically just canon fodder for all of them to get to MJF. Not for once did he look like winning the match against either of them. Wardlow only got over once MJF started treating him poorly.

Max Caster got over on his own tbh. No need to give credit to Punk for that. Garcia though was shoved down the throat probably due to Jericho, Bryan and Regal liking him.

Bret still wrestled a few matches after that Goldberg incident. Didn't he get a stroke from a bicycle accident or something?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I'll disagree on it a little. If Trips burying Punk was based on that Punk only likes the creative which means him coming out on top and dislikes everything else, then I'd side with Trips here. Not saying what Trips did was right and I legit hated him for his reign of terror and stuff he did behind the scenes with The Kliq.

I don't get how Wardlow was elevated by either Jericho or Punk or even Cody. He was basically just canon fodder for all of them to get to MJF. Not for once did he look like winning the match against either of them. Wardlow only got over once MJF started treating him poorly.

Max Caster got over on his own tbh. No need to give credit to Punk for that. Garcia though was shoved down the throat probably due to Jericho, Bryan and Regal liking him.

Bret still wrestled a few matches after that Goldberg incident. Didn't he get a stroke from a bicycle accident or something?

That's an oversimplification. And I am guessing that you saw the promo from SmackDown that has been making the rounds on the internet. The fact of the matter though is this; after the pipebomb promo Punk was the hottest thing in wrestling at the time when the WWE product had become more or less, unwatchable, For context, prior to Punk's pipebomb promo the main-event at that month's PPV had been John Cena v R-Truth.

Punk caught fire after that pipebomb promo and everyone expected it to be his year. Until suddenly out of nowhere HHH came in to start feuding with Punk. Besides the fact that this made little to no sense considering Punk had been involved in the WWE title picture till a month ago, Triple H actually went over in that match evethough it made zero booking sense for that to happen. Involving Punk in a badly thought out feud with Kevin Nash (eventhough it had been obvious for years that Nash could barely stay mobile in the ring) was also HHH's idea. As was wrestling Punk at WrestleMania XXX in a match that never took place but one that made Punk utter the famous line "I don't have to work with you, you have to work with me". And that's even all. According to numerous accounts, HHH didn't like Punk long before the pipebomb promo. I heard JR say once on his podcast that HHH said Punk's "a** was too big" and that H wasn't a fan of Punk's look or physique.

I don't know what match you saw because Wardlow basically destroyed Punk in their match. Punk barely got any offense in and won only because MJF interfered as he wanted Wardlow to inflict more pain on Punk.

You're completely missing the point. I didn't say that he got Caster over. I said that any match that Punk had with a young talent, he elevated that young talent and made them better than they were coming into that match.

The concussion was diagnosed a few weeks later. But once it was diagnosed, Bret was told that he couldn't wrestle anymore. And it was as a result of the kick that Goldberg threw in their Starrcade match.

Tbh I have zero sympathy for Goldberg. He claims to be sorry for what he did to Bret and is (according to his own admission) bothered by it. And yet he can't do the same for William Regal, who according to Goldberg buried him in a match on Monday Nitro and deliberately him look bad. A match that led to Regal getting fired from WCW. Eventhough Regal has tried to reach out to Goldberg numerous times through other people to explain his side of the story, Goldberg has is like, I'm not going to forgive him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That's an oversimplification. And I am guessing that you saw the promo from SmackDown that has been making the rounds on the internet. The fact of the matter though is this; after the pipebomb promo Punk was the hottest thing in wrestling at the time when the WWE product had become more or less, unwatchable, For context, prior to Punk's pipebomb promo the main-event at that month's PPV had been John Cena v R-Truth.

Punk caught fire after that pipebomb promo and everyone expected it to be his year. Until suddenly out of nowhere HHH came in to start feuding with Punk. Besides the fact that this made little to no sense considering Punk had been involved in the WWE title picture till a month ago, Triple H actually went over in that match evethough it made zero booking sense for that to happen. Involving Punk in a badly thought out feud with Kevin Nash (eventhough it had been obvious for years that Nash could barely stay mobile in the ring) was also HHH's idea. As was wrestling Punk at WrestleMania XXX in a match that never took place but one that made Punk utter the famous line "I don't have to work with you, you have to work with me". And that's even all. According to numerous accounts, HHH didn't like Punk long before the pipebomb promo. I heard JR say once on his podcast that HHH said Punk's "a** was too big" and that H wasn't a fan of Punk's look or physique.

I don't know what match you saw because Wardlow basically destroyed Punk in their match. Punk barely got any offense in and won only because MJF interfered as he wanted Wardlow to inflict more pain on Punk.

You're completely missing the point. I didn't say that he got Caster over. I said that any match that Punk had with a young talent, he elevated that young talent and made them better than they were coming into that match.

The concussion was diagnosed a few weeks later. But once it was diagnosed, Bret was told that he couldn't wrestle anymore. And it was as a result of the kick that Goldberg threw in their Starrcade match.

Tbh I have zero sympathy for Goldberg. He claims to be sorry for what he did to Bret and is (according to his own admission) bothered by it. And yet he can't do the same for William Regal, who according to Goldberg buried him in a match on Monday Nitro and deliberately him look bad. A match that led to Regal getting fired from WCW. Eventhough Regal has tried to reach out to Goldberg numerous times through other people to explain his side of the story, Goldberg has is like, I'm not going to forgive him.

Have never really liked Goldberg. Think it's on WCW's part as well to let a dangerous wrestler signed. And Bret's run in WCW even before that was a sham. Goldberg is not as good as he thinks he is.

The thing about concussion is that they heal eventually. It's a result of shearing forces, a bit like coup-countercoup, it shakes up the brain but doesn't cause any structural damage and with time it heals up. It's when you get a lot of concussions in short amount of time that they damage the brain irreparably. Bret may have been forced to not wrestle for a few years then but it was the stroke and it's residual effects that really ended his career. Not saying what Goldberg did was fine. Never liked Goldberg myself.

Yup that summer of punk thing really got ruined by Trips and Nash.

Didn't Punk himself say there are bridges that need to be rebuilt if is to go back to WWE?

 

[shaz619]

I don't think that's true, though. Vince betrayed and double-crossed Bret. But he didn't effectively end any chance Bret had to make money doing what he loved. Goldberg effectively ended his wrestling career.

Also, don't think Good Brothers are in any way comparable to Punk. Punk hated being in WWE, especially during his last year. And his problems with Triple H continued long after 2012/13. Ofcourse Triple H, being in the position that he is today, would say that. But I think he hates both Jericho and Punk's guts. Especially Punk. Because Punk told Triple H to his face what he thought about him.

It's not just about having a proper feud. He had matches with guys like Powerhouse Hobbs, Daniel Garcia, Lee Moriarty, Max Caster, Wardlow, John Silver on Dynamite & Rampage and elevated pretty much all those guys by having matches that made sense and told a story. There's always a possibility. But if I were a betting man, I would not bet on this.

Tbh I think Bret always had more animosity towards Hunter then Vince.

Hunter came up with the screwjob, he suggested it to Vince.

Jim Cornette came up with the finish (LOL) but he had no idea what they were planning.

Vince made significant efforts to repair bridges with Bret, the screw job was a big event in their history and if you ignore that / Shawn being pushed when Bret was coming out of his major run with the top title, I think Bret had a good relationship with Vince. The two liked each other. Hunter on the other hand…..being associated with the Kliq long before he made that suggestion didn’t go down well with Bret in those days given their antics, the locker room was split and then for someone from the Kliq making the suggestion, it must have really rubbed him the wrong way over the years. Remember when Bret had a stroke, Vince was one of the first people to contact him.

You’re spot on that it’s a bit different here with Punk.

The final stretch of his run was disastrous backstage because the more he got over the more Hunter looked to put him down and as you say the issues continued long after he left with the lawsuit.

There are two things or a combination of both which may help sign Punk to the E:

- An apology from Trips for firing Punk on his wedding day

- Not much is said but they agree, let bygones be bygones, no specific apology but here’s a big big bag

The thing which tells me there might be a tiny chance something surrounding the second option could happen is that Punk was working with Fox who aimed to mediate between Punk and WWE in a bid to sign him, I don’t know what the conversation was but I believe Punk/HHH spoke to each other and am not sure they have some time after that.

WWE were bitter then to and Hunter had a huge ego, I also think Vince underestimated whether Punk could be as big a draw again.

HHH has reiterated that the desire has to be there on both sides implying Punk would never want to work there like ever, but am not sure that is entirely true now, Punk linking up with Fox was a smart move on his side, he knew he’d become a hot free agent, we could say he used WWE to leverage big money from the mark but I think he was open to accepting a big big bag from Vince potentially.

But still I’d be leaning towards a no to, but I believe they may talk, am sure both parties would be open to it, especially if things with AEW are sour. Punk is in a strong position, he can sue, he could be bought out of his contract and there could be more money if TK requests an NDA because he loves those, I don’t know if Punk will have the desire to work in a toxic environment in a place where he helped elevate talent and wanted to enjoy himself / continue doing so in the final part of his career. It may be better to take the step aside cash.

He doesn’t need the money always saved well, not from AEW or WWE, I do feel while money played a part he came back for the love of the business and the fans, when you read the vitriol online and the politics he had to deal with? he may just ride of into the sunset.

He once said to Vince, you need me, I don’t need you. And it’s true. At this point I think unless someone offers a really big bag, he will explore other opportunities, movies, comics, punditry etc people underestimate what a big star and draw Punk is, he doesn’t even need to wrestle.

 

[shaz619]

Have never really liked Goldberg. Think it's on WCW's part as well to let a dangerous wrestler signed. And Bret's run in WCW even before that was a sham. Goldberg is not as good as he thinks he is.

The thing about concussion is that they heal eventually. It's a result of shearing forces, a bit like coup-countercoup, it shakes up the brain but doesn't cause any structural damage and with time it heals up. It's when you get a lot of concussions in short amount of time that they damage the brain irreparably. Bret may have been forced to not wrestle for a few years then but it was the stroke and it's residual effects that really ended his career. Not saying what Goldberg did was fine. Never liked Goldberg myself.

Yup that summer of punk thing really got ruined by Trips and Nash.

Didn't Punk himself say there are bridges that need to be rebuilt if is to go back to WWE?

Goldberg was never trained properly, the WCW power-plant failed him and they made no effort to improve him in the ring.

Berg wasn’t a fan of the business and it may explain why he was clueless during his peak.

WCW were probably happy with the money he drew at the gate and how over he kept getting so made no effort to help him.

Goldberg isn’t a great worker but he was a huge huge star, the hype was real, even to this day. In his peak, his popularity was up there with Austin and Berg/Austin was a smarks wet dream when it came to fantasy booking during that period. Long after his run in WCW and his first run in WWE, his DVD became the best selling of all time for Vince or up there at least.

Bret made some good money but health comes first and I think after the stuff which happened with Owen to, it must have been too much. The period of inactivity fast tracks your decline to begin with and I think after the stroke as you say, it was the final nail in the coffin of his in-ring career.

What a damn shame.

Imagine these matches during RA era:

Bret v Shawn

Bret v Kurt Angle : This would be a match of the century candidate