Why anti Muslim bias is so profound among Hindutva supporters?

[cricketjoshila]

But my claims are backed by scholarly research and documented history. His are not. New to debating I am guessing, are you?

Documented history says Muslims killed Sikh Gurus, descrated Harmandir Sahib.

It also says Sikh Leaders like Ranjit Singhji had converted Mosque into stables.

History also states that Sikh Gurus were Hindu Khatris and frequented temples.

Sikhs follow their religion on the basis of what their Gurus said not on basis of doctoral thesis.

 

[Stewie]

Documented history says Muslims killed Sikh Gurus, descrated Harmandir Sahib.

It also says Sikh Leaders like Ranjit Singhji had converted Mosque into stables.

History also states that Sikh Gurus were Hindu Khatris and frequented temples.

Sikhs follow their religion on the basis of what their Gurus said not on basis of doctoral thesis.

And what part of that documented history has anything to do with the origins of the Sikh religion?

I am sorry I am making you think so hard on this subject. Sometimes I feel bad for all the gears that maybe whirring beyond capacity in there. But I am confident you can do it and arrive at the right conclusion. Please keep at it!

 

[cricketjoshila]

And what part of that documented history has anything to do with the origins of the Sikh religion?

I am sorry I am making you think so hard on this subject. Sometimes I feel bad for all the gears that maybe whirring beyond capacity in there. But I am confident you can do it and arrive at the right conclusion. Please keep at it!

It tells you how Sikhs had enemity with Muslims and were not inspired by them.

I understand that you have to some how make it look like that Islam inspired Sikhism, but neither Sikh gurus believed it, neither Sikh leaders.

Its how Christians and Jews don't believe Moses and Jesus have anything to do with Islam.

 

[Stewie]

It tells you how Sikhs had enemity with Muslims and were not inspired by them.

I understand that you have to some how make it look like that Islam inspired Sikhism, but neither Sikh gurus believed it, neither Sikh leaders.

Its how Christians and Jews don't believe Moses and Jesus have anything to do with Islam.

Sikhs developed enmity with Muslims much later, at least a few generations later.

When Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Sikhism, at that time Sikhism obviously did not exist and he had a favorable view of Islam and he was very clearly inspired by it.

This is a very simple and basic concept that one should not have to burn books or time to understand. Guru Nanak visited Mecca and Medina and he would not have done that unless he was interested in discovering what Islam was about. Where do you think Sikhs derive the One God concept if they are simply motivated by Hinduism?

The subsequent enmity with conquerors who were Muslim also is not reflective of Islam and Sikhism dynamics. I am sure there are a lot of Sikhs who still believe a lot in Baba Bulleh Shah and other Sufi poets and their ideology which is not what the western Muslim conquerors who warred against Sikhs brought with them.

In order to understand these concepts you have to have at the bare minimum middle school level intelligence and education.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Sikhs developed enmity with Muslims much later, at least a few generations later.

When Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Sikhism, at that time Sikhism obviously did not exist and he had a favorable view of Islam and he was very clearly inspired by it.

This is a very simple and basic concept that one should not have to burn books or time to understand. Guru Nanak visited Mecca and Medina and he would not have done that unless he was interested in discovering what Islam was about. Where do you think Sikhs derive the One God concept if they are simply motivated by Hinduism?

The subsequent enmity with conquerors who were Muslim also is not reflective of Islam and Sikhism dynamics. I am sure there are a lot of Sikhs who still believe a lot in Baba Bulleh Shah and other Sufi poets and their ideology which is not what the western Muslim conquerors who warred against Sikhs brought with them.

In order to understand these concepts you have to have at the bare minimum middle school level intelligence and education.

Until Sikhs had a significant number of followers Muslims didn't bother with them.

Once Sikhs were significant in number, Muslims started their persecution. Killed Sikh Gurus.

Please provide a primary source regarding these favourable views and inspiration from Islam.

Guru Nanak Dev ji also visited a number of Hindu pilgrimage sites, Baghdad, Jerusalem and even Vatican. He visited holy sites of all religions.

Hinduism and Vedas have the concept of one god long before Islam came. The concept of non dualism and parabrahma, the one supreme reality have long existed in Hinduism.

Sikhs use the Omkar, derived from OM of Vedas.

6 out of the 10 Sikh Gurus and their followers, Sikh leaders like Banda Bahadur and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji all had confrontations with Muslims.

It takes little intelligence to see through your attempts to try and appropriate the very foundations of another religion as being inspired by Islam.

 

[Stewie]

Until Sikhs had a significant number of followers Muslims didn't bother with them.

Once Sikhs were significant in number, Muslims started their persecution. Killed Sikh Gurus.

Please provide a primary source regarding these favourable views and inspiration from Islam.

Guru Nanak Dev ji also visited a number of Hindu pilgrimage sites, Baghdad, Jerusalem and even Vatican. He visited holy sites of all religions.

Hinduism and Vedas have the concept of one god long before Islam came. The concept of non dualism and parabrahma, the one supreme reality have long existed in Hinduism.

Sikhs use the Omkar, derived from OM of Vedas.

6 out of the 10 Sikh Gurus and their followers, Sikh leaders like Banda Bahadur and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji all had confrontations with Muslims.

It takes little intelligence to see through your attempts to try and appropriate the very foundations of another religion as being inspired by Islam.

I have provided those previously. please read and enlighten yourself. you can also educate yourself a bit on Guru Nanak's life and the true inspiration of One God, his association with Sufism, and then also read the Quran to get a proper understanding of how he may have been inspired by some bits of it. Those are the true sources and you should invest some time personally for understanding the basic concepts. From what I understand you are neither a Sikh nor Muslim and you love to consider any source I would cite here as "primary source"

there is no better primary source than the Quran and perhaps Guru Granth.

Need I also add here that "Four hymns and 130 shloks of Baba Sheikh Farid have been included in the Guru Granth Sahib, compiled by 5th Guru, Arjan Dev.13"

Baba Farid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can research this fact yourself as well. but if you want really primary, study the Quran and study Guru Granth sahib and you will have your answer.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You can research this fact yourself as well. but if you want really primary, study the Quran and study Guru Granth sahib and you will have your answer.

Have you read the Guru Granth Sahib? Care for a small quiz on it?

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have provided those previously. please read and enlighten yourself. you can also educate yourself a bit on Guru Nanak's life and the true inspiration of One God, his association with Sufism, and then also read the Quran to get a proper understanding of how he may have been inspired by some bits of it. Those are the true sources and you should invest some time personally for understanding the basic concepts. From what I understand you are neither a Sikh nor Muslim and you love to consider any source I would cite here as "primary source"

there is no better primary source than the Quran and perhaps Guru Granth.

Need I also add here that "Four hymns and 130 shloks of Baba Sheikh Farid have been included in the Guru Granth Sahib, compiled by 5th Guru, Arjan Dev.13"

Baba Farid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can research this fact yourself as well. but if you want really primary, study the Quran and study Guru Granth sahib and you will have your answer.

You haven't provided one primary source. Your sources are all from 20th century. Copied from a doctoral thesis.

Guru Nanak Dev ji visited holy sites all over the world including many Hindu temples. His succesors continued to visit Hindu temples.

The concept of one god existed in the Vedas long before the Quran.

Baba Farid is considered one of the 15 Bhagats in Sikh history. Most other Bhagats are Hindus.

Knowledge of Sikhism is from the Guru Granth Sahib, JanamSakhis and other primary Sikh texts. Not from Quran.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You haven't provided one primary source. Your sources are all from 20th century. Copied from a doctoral thesis.

Guru Nanak Dev ji visited holy sites all over the world including many Hindu temples. His succesors continued to visit Hindu temples.

The concept of one god existed in the Vedas long before the Quran.

Baba Farid is considered one of the 15 Bhagats in Sikh history. Most other Bhagats are Hindus.

Knowledge of Sikhism is from the Guru Granth Sahib, JanamSakhis and other primary Sikh texts. Not from Quran.

To be fair, brother @Stewie is only saying this :

"of how he may have been inspired by some bits of it".

He is only suggesting the possibility ( may have) and inspired by a small overlap (some bits).

So he is already accepting that Sikhism has only a minute overlap which may be seen as inspired by Islam.

 

[Stewie]

You haven't provided one primary source. Your sources are all from 20th century. Copied from a doctoral thesis.

Guru Nanak Dev ji visited holy sites all over the world including many Hindu temples. His succesors continued to visit Hindu temples.

The concept of one god existed in the Vedas long before the Quran.

Baba Farid is considered one of the 15 Bhagats in Sikh history. Most other Bhagats are Hindus.

Knowledge of Sikhism is from the Guru Granth Sahib, JanamSakhis and other primary Sikh texts. Not from Quran.

Influence is a subjective thing. I did not realize one needed to have equal number of associations with A or B to prove its influenced and inspired by something. It also is not equal parts. The research shared with you is authentic and its authenticity cannot be questionable because of the century it was conducted in. If anything with the modern tools and existing research and expertise available to historians and experts, they are better equipped to determine such things than someone sitting and writing something similar in the 14th or 15 century.

That argument is foolish. If you don't want to believe, don't believe it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. I reefuse to believe your childish musings because I would much rather believe qualified and educated experts of Sikhism and history who wrote a well researched academic paper on the matter rather than rants of a Hindu whose only argument is that Sikhs and Muslims have been killing each other in a not too distant past.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Influence is a subjective thing. I did not realize one needed to have equal number of associations with A or B to prove its influenced and inspired by something. It also is not equal parts. The research shared with you is authentic and its authenticity cannot be questionable because of the century it was conducted in. If anything with the modern tools and existing research and expertise available to historians and experts, they are better equipped to determine such things than someone sitting and writing something similar in the 14th or 15 century.

That argument is foolish. If you don't want to believe, don't believe it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. I reefuse to believe your childish musings because I would much rather believe qualified and educated experts of Sikhism and history who wrote a well researched academic paper on the matter rather than rants of a Hindu whose only argument is that Sikhs and Muslims have been killing each other in a not too distant past.

LOL. If anything, your argument is foolish. You are harping on "qualified and educated expert" writing a "well researched academic paper" as if it becomes a gospel. Especially in humanities, these are just interpretations and not beyond criticism. This paper has many flaws. It excludes the influence of bhakti movement (stays silent on it), it fails to mentions many aspects were Sikhism completely diverges from Islam. This is a cherry picked paper. For what it matters, I have also written research papers (in Science, not humanities). Research papers dont become the truth. Anyone with access to some books can write a paper in humanities and get it cross cited. What is the citation count of this paper? What is the H index of this author?

Truth is based on PRIMARY sources, not layers of papers written on top with anyones interpretation.

 

[Stewie]

To be fair, brother @Stewie is only saying this :



He is only suggesting the possibility ( may have) and inspired by a small overlap (some bits).

So he is already accepting that Sikhism has only a minute overlap which may be seen as inspired by Islam.

Sikhism and Sufi Islam actually share a more than minute overlap but once again its a subjective thing. We can only go by what experts themselves state and they certainly seem to believe so.

The point is that this concept is completely divorced from any political, genocidal, murderous incidents between the followers of the two faiths that came after the inception of Sikhism as a religion or faith. There is a well documented relationship of friendship between a renowned Muslim Sufi and a Sikh guru in history. Once cannot deny these facts.

Muslim Sufism is a significantly Punjabi movement and so is Sikhism.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Sikhism and Sufi Islam actually share a more than minute overlap but once again its a subjective thing. We can only go by what experts themselves state and they certainly seem to believe so.

The point is that this concept is completely divorced from any political, genocidal, murderous incidents between the followers of the two faiths that came after the inception of Sikhism as a religion or faith. There is a well documented relationship of friendship between a renowned Muslim Sufi and a Sikh guru in history. Once cannot deny these facts.

Muslim Sufism is a significantly Punjabi movement and so is Sikhism.

Poor logic.

We can go by primary sources, studying their original scriptures. Don't outsource your thinking to some experts and say that we can only go by what they say.

How many times Guru Granth Sahib uses Allah to invoke God?

Sufi is similar to bhakti movement. And there were militant sufis as well. Just because Pakistanis eat Roti and Mexicans eat Tortilla which is similar to Roti, doesn't mean Pakistanis were inspired and influenced by Mexico.

You are cherry picking after surrendering your mental faculties to some so called expert without going to the FIRST PRINCIPLES, the PRIMARY SOURCES, brother Stewie.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sikhism and Sufi Islam actually share a more than minute overlap but once again its a subjective thing. We can only go by what experts themselves state and they certainly seem to believe so.

The point is that this concept is completely divorced from any political, genocidal, murderous incidents between the followers of the two faiths that came after the inception of Sikhism as a religion or faith. There is a well documented relationship of friendship between a renowned Muslim Sufi and a Sikh guru in history. Once cannot deny these facts.

Muslim Sufism is a significantly Punjabi movement and so is Sikhism.

Sikhism has borrowed the idea of monotheism from Islam. Outside of that, there is nothing in common between Sikhism and Islam.
Sikh God is not Allah and they do not believe in any Jewish Prophets. There ends the story.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Sikhism has borrowed the idea of monotheism from Islam. Outside of that, there is nothing in common between Sikhism and Islam.
Sikh God is not Allah and they do not believe in any Jewish Prophets. There ends the story.

Even that is debatable. Monotheism exists in some Hindu sects as well.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Even that is debatable. Monotheism exists in some Hindu sects as well.

I will give the benefit of doubt to Islam on that as Guru Nanak Dev ji was in contact with Islam and even visited the holy city Mecca during his life time.

 

[Stewie]

Sikhism has borrowed the idea of monotheism from Islam. Outside of that, there is nothing in common between Sikhism and Islam.
Sikh God is not Allah and they do not believe in any Jewish Prophets. There ends the story.

Why is it considered "borrowing" when they believe some idea to be true? Even if its an ancient Hindu concept of a singular God, it is all the same. I think its a very childish thing to suggest its a different "God".

Whether you believe in any of the Prophets, Jewish, or Muslim or otherwise, none of that is material to this concept. The idea is about "belief in one entity" that is the creator. Humans tend to over
complicate it.

For further reading:

The words Allah and Khuda in the SGGS​

The word ਖ੝ਦਾਇ has been used 34 times, while the word ਖ੝ਦਾਈ has been used 8 times in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The word Allah is used by the following authors in the following lines:

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

ਆਦਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ ਕਉ ਅਲਹ੝ ਕਹੀਝ ਸੇਖਾਂ ਆਈ ਵਾਰੀ ॥
The Primal Lord God is called Allah. The Shaykh's turn has now come.

Namdev​

ਛੋਡਿ ਰਾਮ੝ ਕੀ ਨ ਭਜਹਿ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ॥੬॥
and she said, "Why don't you abandon your Lord Raam, and worship his Lord Allah?"||6||

Fareed​

ਭਿਜਉ ਸਿਜਉ ਕੰਬਲੀ ਅਲਹ ਵਰਸਉ ਮੇਹ੝ ॥
My blanket is soaked, drenched with the downpour of the Lord's Rain. ਪੰਨਾ 1379, ਸਤਰ 4

Guru Arjun Dev​

ਝਕੋ ਅਲਹ੝ ਪਾਰਬ੝ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

ਅਲਹ ਅਗਮ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
O slave of the inaccessible Lord God Allah,

ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮ੝ਸਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹ੝ਜਰਾ ॥੫॥
God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||

ਝਕ੝ ਗ੝ਸਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡ੝ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

Kabeer​

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਸ੝ਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਸਾਚ੝ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਨਾਰਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ੝ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਗੈਬ੝ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹ੝ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਝਕ੝ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤ੝ ਹੈ ਅਵਰ੝ ਮ੝ਲਖ੝ ਕਿਸ੝ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਵਉ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਈ ॥
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

ਕਬੀਰ੝ ਪੂੰਗਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਗ੝ਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥੫॥
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰ੝ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕ੝ਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦ੝ਖ੝ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.


But apart from that, one has to know a bit about Sufism as well as Sikhism to understand the link between the two. Guru Nanak was actually equally critical of Islam and Hinduism as well as fond of certain ideas within them. That tells me that he studied them both and I find it hard to believe it all ended at the concept of the one God.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I will give the benefit of doubt to Islam on that as Guru Nanak Dev ji was in contact with Islam and even visited the holy city Mecca during his life time.

He visited Puri Jagannath and Haridwar as well. Guru Nanak was born a Hindu, what is more closer contact than that?

Please don't quote me again.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Monotheism exists in Hindu schools, exists in Sikhism, exists in Islam.
Reincarnation exists in Hinduism, Sikhism, not in Islam.
Karma exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.
Moksha/Multi exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.
Veneration of Gurus exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.

But brother Stewei thinks Sikhism is inspired by Islam by cherry picking sufism and monotheism, forgetting that Bhakti Movement came much before sufism, and hinduism also have monotheistic sects.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why is it considered "borrowing" when they believe some idea to be true? Even if its an ancient Hindu concept of a singular God, it is all the same. I think its a very childish thing to suggest its a different "God".

Whether you believe in any of the Prophets, Jewish, or Muslim or otherwise, none of that is material to this concept. The idea is about "belief in one entity" that is the creator. Humans tend to over
complicate it.

For further reading:

The words Allah and Khuda in the SGGS​

The word ਖ੝ਦਾਇ has been used 34 times, while the word ਖ੝ਦਾਈ has been used 8 times in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The word Allah is used by the following authors in the following lines:

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

ਆਦਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ ਕਉ ਅਲਹ੝ ਕਹੀਝ ਸੇਖਾਂ ਆਈ ਵਾਰੀ ॥
The Primal Lord God is called Allah. The Shaykh's turn has now come.

Namdev​

ਛੋਡਿ ਰਾਮ੝ ਕੀ ਨ ਭਜਹਿ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ॥੬॥
and she said, "Why don't you abandon your Lord Raam, and worship his Lord Allah?"||6||

Fareed​

ਭਿਜਉ ਸਿਜਉ ਕੰਬਲੀ ਅਲਹ ਵਰਸਉ ਮੇਹ੝ ॥
My blanket is soaked, drenched with the downpour of the Lord's Rain. ਪੰਨਾ 1379, ਸਤਰ 4

Guru Arjun Dev​

ਝਕੋ ਅਲਹ੝ ਪਾਰਬ੝ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

ਅਲਹ ਅਗਮ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
O slave of the inaccessible Lord God Allah,

ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮ੝ਸਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹ੝ਜਰਾ ॥੫॥
God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||

ਝਕ੝ ਗ੝ਸਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡ੝ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

Kabeer​

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਸ੝ਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਸਾਚ੝ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਨਾਰਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ੝ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਗੈਬ੝ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹ੝ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਝਕ੝ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤ੝ ਹੈ ਅਵਰ੝ ਮ੝ਲਖ੝ ਕਿਸ੝ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਵਉ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਈ ॥
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

ਕਬੀਰ੝ ਪੂੰਗਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਗ੝ਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥੫॥
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰ੝ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕ੝ਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦ੝ਖ੝ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.


But apart from that, one has to know a bit about Sufism as well as Sikhism to understand the link between the two. Guru Nanak was actually equally critical of Islam and Hinduism as well as fond of certain ideas within them. That tells me that he studied them both and I find it hard to believe it all ended at the concept of the one God.

Why are you quoting Kabeer?

Guru Arjun Dev​

The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same.

This can never be said by a muslim. Only a hindu or a sikh can say that Allah and Parbrahmn are the same. There goes your theory.

 

[Stewie]

Monotheism exists in Hindu schools, exists in Sikhism, exists in Islam.
Reincarnation exists in Hinduism, Sikhism, not in Islam.
Karma exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.
Moksha/Multi exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.
Veneration of Gurus exists in Hinduism and Sikhism, not in Islam.

But brother Stewei thinks Sikhism is inspired by Islam by cherry picking sufism and monotheism, forgetting that Bhakti Movement came much before sufism, and hinduism also have monotheistic sects.

Brother CricketCartoons seems to think Brother Stewie is claiming Guru Nanak was only influence by a brother who was Muslim and not by a brother Hindu when all Brother Stewie is saying Sikhism is inspired by both Islam and Hinduism and is not even claiming its in equal parts. Brother CricketCartoons can continue to downplay the connection between Sufism and Islam as a Bengali Brother but Punjabi Brother would know more about this stuff, unfortunately.

Cheers to all the sisters as well

 

[CricketCartoons]

Brother CricketCartoons seems to think Brother Stewie is claiming Brother Guru Nanak was only influence by a brother who was Muslim and not by a brother Hindu when all Brother Stewie is saying Sikhism is inspired by both Islam and Hinduism and is not even claiming its in equal parts. Brother CricketCartoons can continue to downplay the connection between Sufism and Islam as a Bengali Brother but Punjabi Brother would know more about this stuff, unfortunately.

Cheers to all the sisters as well

Show some respect to Guru Nanak.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Why is it considered "borrowing" when they believe some idea to be true? Even if its an ancient Hindu concept of a singular God, it is all the same. I think its a very childish thing to suggest its a different "God".

Whether you believe in any of the Prophets, Jewish, or Muslim or otherwise, none of that is material to this concept. The idea is about "belief in one entity" that is the creator. Humans tend to over
complicate it.

For further reading:

The words Allah and Khuda in the SGGS​

The word ਖ੝ਦਾਇ has been used 34 times, while the word ਖ੝ਦਾਈ has been used 8 times in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The word Allah is used by the following authors in the following lines:

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

ਆਦਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ ਕਉ ਅਲਹ੝ ਕਹੀਝ ਸੇਖਾਂ ਆਈ ਵਾਰੀ ॥
The Primal Lord God is called Allah. The Shaykh's turn has now come.

Namdev​

ਛੋਡਿ ਰਾਮ੝ ਕੀ ਨ ਭਜਹਿ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ॥੬॥
and she said, "Why don't you abandon your Lord Raam, and worship his Lord Allah?"||6||

Fareed​

ਭਿਜਉ ਸਿਜਉ ਕੰਬਲੀ ਅਲਹ ਵਰਸਉ ਮੇਹ੝ ॥
My blanket is soaked, drenched with the downpour of the Lord's Rain. ਪੰਨਾ 1379, ਸਤਰ 4

Guru Arjun Dev​

ਝਕੋ ਅਲਹ੝ ਪਾਰਬ੝ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

ਅਲਹ ਅਗਮ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
O slave of the inaccessible Lord God Allah,

ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮ੝ਸਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹ੝ਜਰਾ ॥੫॥
God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||

ਝਕ੝ ਗ੝ਸਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡ੝ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

Kabeer​

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਸ੝ਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਸਾਚ੝ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਨਾਰਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ੝ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਗੈਬ੝ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹ੝ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਝਕ੝ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤ੝ ਹੈ ਅਵਰ੝ ਮ੝ਲਖ੝ ਕਿਸ੝ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਵਉ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਈ ॥
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

ਕਬੀਰ੝ ਪੂੰਗਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਗ੝ਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥੫॥
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰ੝ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕ੝ਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦ੝ਖ੝ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.


But apart from that, one has to know a bit about Sufism as well as Sikhism to understand the link between the two. Guru Nanak was actually equally critical of Islam and Hinduism as well as fond of certain ideas within them. That tells me that he studied them both and I find it hard to believe it all ended at the concept of the one God.

Obviously Sikhs believe in one God. To them whether it is Allah or Ram or Ishwar, they are all the names of one true God Wahe Guru. Sikh Gurus were in contact with Islam and Hinduism all their lives. They use words like Ram, Shiva, Allah interchangeably. Their God is Wahe Guru.

Many of the verses you posted above are blasphemous according to Islam.

 

[Stewie]

Obviously Sikhs believe in one God. To them whether it is Allah or Ram or Ishwar, they are all the names of one true God Wahe Guru. Sikh Gurus were in contact with Islam and Hinduism all their lives. They use words like Ram, Shiva, Allah interchangeably. Their God is Wahe Guru.

They are simply names which are used by Sikhs to prove its the same God.

Many of the verses you posted above are blasphemous according to Islam.

which by the way is not the topic of discussion brother Champ.

 

[CricketCartoons]

They are simply names which are used by Sikhs to prove its the same God.




which by the way is not the topic of discussion brother Champ.

The topic of discussion is not whether sikhism inspired by islam either brother Stewie.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Brother Stewie, show some beliefs in Sikhism which are not found in Hinduism and found in Islam.

I have already shown some core ideas which are common to Sikhism and Hinduism and not in Islam.

Your turn.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The topic of discussion is not whether sikhism inspired by islam either brother Stewie.

I am bemused why we are discussing Sikhism at all in this thread. I created one specifically called Are Sikhs really Hindus in Disguise? many years ago, someone should just have bumped that if it sparks so much debate since eons have passed.

 

[Stewie]

by the way, if Hindus believe and worship a one God, I am not going to say its a different God than who people of Abrahamic FAITHS PRAY to.

those definitions and concepts are very subjective and based on individual perceptions. I believe if there is a "man in the sky" who created us all, then its the same man in the sky we all worship albeit with different names.

You are free to disagree but there is no point in trying to convince each other on this topic. We should simply move on happyily that we have at least something in common.

 

[CricketCartoons]

by the way, if Hindus believe and worship a one God, I am not going to say its a different God than who people of Abrahamic FAITHS PRAY to.

those definitions and concepts are very subjective and based on individual perceptions. I believe if there is a "man in the sky" who created us all, then its the same man in the sky we all worship albeit with different names.

You are free to disagree but there is no point in trying to convince each other on this topic. We should simply move on happyily that we have at least something in common.

We have at least something in common? Means you see that there is a lot that is not in common.

Actually we have more than 99% in common. But that minute difference is all that it takes for you to mock Guru Nanak.

 

[Stewie]

I am bemused why we are discussing Sikhism at all in this thread. I created one specifically called Are Sikhs really Hindus in Disguise? many years ago, someone should just have bumped that if it sparks so much debate since eons have passed.

Let me take a stab at what is going on here.

Hindutva in its modern form believes, or tries to publicise that all subcontinental religions are "Dharmic" faiths, regardless of their origins and inspirations. The convenient definition used for Dharmic faiths or Santana Dharma is belief in reincarnation because Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism all believe that. The idea is that Muslims are not native to these lands and they want to put up a united front against them using this logic. The fact is its a "zabardasti ki logic" because Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism have distinct roots than Hinduism and they all borrow some concepts from each other. But classifying them under one umbrella term is a bit too much in my view, and it just doesn't end at that Hindustva BRIGADE then take ownership of the whole thing whether Sikhs or Jains or Budhists agree with it or not. They will go around saying things like "Brother Sikh, Brother Jain, Brother Jain" and "Brother Stewie" is just for show for PP.

So this topic actually has a very distinct relation the original topic of the discussion.

 

[Champ_Pal]

They are simply names which are used by Sikhs to prove its the same God.




which by the way is not the topic of discussion brother Champ.

This is why Sikhism has nothing to do with Islam. The only thing Sikhism has in common in Islam is the belief in one God. That is where the story ends.

 

[Stewie]

This is why Sikhism has nothing to do with Islam. The only thing Sikhism has in common in Islam is the belief in one God. That is where the story ends.

Sure, I will have to believe you because you are a leading Sikh authority and a subject matter expert that I simply cannot disagree with, right Brother Champ_Pal?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Let me take a stab at what is going on here.

Hindutva in its modern form believes, or tries to publicise that all subcontinental religions are "Dharmic" faiths, regardless of their origins and inspirations. The convenient definition used for Dharmic faiths or Santana Dharma is belief in reincarnation because Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism all believe that. The idea is that Muslims are not native to these lands and they want to put up a united front against them using this logic. The fact is its a "zabardasti ki logic" because Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism have distinct roots than Hinduism and they all borrow some concepts from each other. But classifying them under one umbrella term is a bit too much in my view, and it just doesn't end at that Hindustva BRIGADE then take ownership of the whole thing whether Sikhs or Jains or Budhists agree with it or not. They will go around saying things like "Brother Sikh, Brother Jain, Brother Jain" and "Brother Stewie" is just for show for PP.

So this topic actually has a very distinct relation the original topic of the discussion.

There is no agenda with Hindus. All the religions were ideas about God which eventually branched off. Sanatana Dharma is just an umbrella term.
My household people still have idols of Buddha and when they visit temples, they bow down to Mahavira too. Hindus still visit Sikh holy shrines in millions each year. Hindus do not consider them separate from them. Sometimes it can be one sided love affair. But Hindus don't care.

This is why India is still united. The adaptability and inclusiveness of all schools of thoughts.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Let me take a stab at what is going on here.

Hindutva in its modern form believes, or tries to publicise that all subcontinental religions are "Dharmic" faiths, regardless of their origins and inspirations. The convenient definition used for Dharmic faiths or Santana Dharma is belief in reincarnation because Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism all believe that. The idea is that Muslims are not native to these lands and they want to put up a united front against them using this logic. The fact is its a "zabardasti ki logic" because Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism have distinct roots than Hinduism and they all borrow some concepts from each other. But classifying them under one umbrella term is a bit too much in my view, and it just doesn't end at that Hindustva BRIGADE then take ownership of the whole thing whether Sikhs or Jains or Budhists agree with it or not. They will go around saying things like "Brother Sikh, Brother Jain, Brother Jain" and "Brother Stewie" is just for show for PP.

So this topic actually has a very distinct relation the original topic of the discussion.

You find this zabardasti ka logic because Islam believes in Exclusivism. You are not muslim, he is not muslim, they are not muslim. Islam is also against any reformist belief.

Hinduism accepts reformist sects and religions. Hinduism does not say that Sikhism and Jainism and Buddhism are its sub sects. It accepts that all these four religions are under the common umbrella of Dharmic religions, because they were all born in the indian subcontinent and more importantly, they have the core belief in Dharma, Karma and Rebirth.

Just because you hate hinduism, you want to deny that it can have any siblings. But that is your Islamic mental wiring, which sees differences first and ignores similarities, which is why all abrahamic religions are against each other.

You are only projecting your prejudices, brother Stewie.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sure, I will have to believe you because you are a leading Sikh authority and a subject matter expert that I simply cannot disagree with, right Brother Champ_Pal?

There you go.

It does not require one to be a Gyani or Sikh scholar to observe the clear differences.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Brother Stewie, you want to claim Sikhism as an Abrahamic religion, and deny that it is a dharmic religion?

Sure, go ahead.

Wish punjabi muslims had claimed sikhs, so they would not have been driven out of their homeland.

 

[Stewie]

There you go.

It does not require one to be a Gyani or Sikh scholar to observe the clear differences.

and yet you are the one who is insistent that its not the same God as Allah when I quoted direct Sikh verses which I am guessing you did not pay attention to. So who knows more about it or the inner belief that generated such quotes right now? You or me?

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.
By the way the translation of Bismilahe Rehman ur Rahim is “In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful“

Do you see the similarity?

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
It is quite clear from these verses Sikhs believe its the same God. Even Hindus God for those who believe in a singular God is the same God.
That is the basis of all religion and considering this something superficial or very tiny piece of inspiration is nothing but an uneducated dismissive slight. It is actually the FOUNDATION of it all.

Anyhow, the idea is not about expressing the superiority of one over the other, believe me or not, it is actually me trying to tell you we have more in common than you think even religion wise, and that's an assertion you seem to want to continue to deny.
It is truly ok with me if you want to continue to believe so, it merely reinforces my belief the over usage of the term brother by some of you guys are is simply a facade. The 100% effort seems to be to ensure we are all very very different people and have nothing in common at all, and that to me is outright foolishness. If you want to claim more ownership of Sikhism, by all means go ahead. Hope it makes you sleep better at night.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You find this zabardasti ka logic because Islam believes in Exclusivism. You are not muslim, he is not muslim, they are not muslim. Islam is also against any reformist belief.

Hinduism accepts reformist sects and religions. Hinduism does not say that Sikhism and Jainism and Buddhism are its sub sects. It accepts that all these four religions are under the common umbrella of Dharmic religions, because they were all born in the indian subcontinent and more importantly, they have the core belief in Dharma, Karma and Rebirth.

Just because you hate hinduism, you want to deny that it can have any siblings. But that is your Islamic mental wiring, which sees differences first and ignores similarities, which is why all abrahamic religions are against each other.

You are only projecting your prejudices, brother Stewie.

Islam doesn't believe in Exclusivism, unlike the Dharmic faiths it is not tied to one area of the globe or a piece of land. This is why we refer to those who accept Islam as reverts, as Muslims believe Islam is for all mankind.

I have also raised another thread questioning How to become a Hindu to look at life from another perspective, but I got lost somewhere with the reincarnation aspect where predestination seems to play a part.

 

[CricketCartoons]

and yet you are the one who is insistent that its not the same God as Allah when I quoted direct Sikh verses which I am guessing you did not pay attention to. So who knows more about it or the inner belief that generated such quotes right now? You or me?

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.
By the way the translation of Bismilahe Rehman ur Rahim is “In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful“

Do you see the similarity?

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
It is quite clear from these verses Sikhs believe its the same God. Even Hindus God for those who believe in a singular God is the same God.
That is the basis of all religion and considering this something superficial or very tiny piece of inspiration is nothing but an uneducated dismissive slight. It is actually the FOUNDATION of it all.

Anyhow, the idea is not about expressing the superiority of one over the other, believe me or not, it is actually me trying to tell you we have more in common than you think even religion wise, and that's an assertion you seem to want to continue to deny.
It is truly ok with me if you want to continue to believe so, it merely reinforces my belief the over usage of the term brother by some of you guys are is simply a facade. The 100% effort seems to be to ensure we are all very very different people and have nothing in common at all, and that to me is outright foolishness. If you want to claim more ownership of Sikhism, by all means go ahead. Hope it makes you sleep better at night.

You are lying now. Your want to somehow show that Hinduism and Sikhism don't have commonality and there is nothing called dharmic religions. You want to project your exclusivism on the dharmic religions, while pretending that you want to show that we have so much in common.


We all know how much punjabis had in common and how they had to leave their homeland.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Islam doesn't believe in Exclusivism, unlike the Dharmic faiths it is not tied to one area of the globe or a piece of land. This is why we refer to those who accept Islam as reverts, as Muslims believe Islam is for all mankind.

I have also raised another thread questioning How to become a Hindu to look at life from another perspective, but I got lost somewhere with the reincarnation aspect where predestination seems to play a part.

Islan very much believes in exclusivism. That is why Shia and Sunni, Sunni and Ahmadi. It focuses on differences, no matter how minute, instead of focussing on the similarities, no matter how vast.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islan very much believes in exclusivism. That is why Shia and Sunni, Sunni and Ahmadi. It focuses on differences, no matter how minute, instead of focussing on the similarities, no matter how vast.

The differences are also part of Islam including sects as foretold in the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet SAW. Those who exclude themselves from the truth are the ones indulging in exclusivism, the blame does not lie with the creator.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The differences are also part of Islam including sects as foretold in the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet SAW. Those who exclude themselves from the truth are the ones indulging in exclusivism, the blame does not lie with the creator.

I am not blaming the Creator, but the followers, who have so much in common but kill each other for the minutest disagreement. That is excluvism, that you are not us because we differ on this one thing.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Islan very much believes in exclusivism. That is why Shia and Sunni, Sunni and Ahmadi. It focuses on differences, no matter how minute, instead of focussing on the similarities, no matter how vast.

CC it's utterly wrong. Judaism and Hinduism etc are exclusive because Christianity and Islam calls for spreading the knowledge of their religion to others while others specifically Judaism bars it.

 

[Stewie]

Islan very much believes in exclusivism. That is why Shia and Sunni, Sunni and Ahmadi. It focuses on differences, no matter how minute, instead of focussing on the similarities, no matter how vast.

What do you know about Shiites and Sunnis and their differences? They are political differences and not ideological ones.

 

[Stewie]

Islan very much believes in exclusivism. That is why Shia and Sunni, Sunni and Ahmadi. It focuses on differences, no matter how minute, instead of focussing on the similarities, no matter how vast.

We believe everybody is born a Muslim. We call converts "reverts" .. I don't know how much more inclusive can you get than that.

 

[CricketCartoons]

CC it's utterly wrong. Judaism and Hinduism etc are exclusive because Christianity and Islam calls for spreading the knowledge of their religion to others while others specifically Judaism bars it.

There is no bar to becoming hindu. I invite you to become a hindu.

 

[CricketCartoons]

What do you know about Shiites and Sunnis and their differences? They are political differences and not ideological ones.

Islam is both political and theological. There is no separation.

 

[CricketCartoons]

We believe everybody is born a Muslim. We call converts "reverts" .. I don't know how much more inclusive can you get than that.

LOL.

How open is Islam to reformist movements?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

LOL.

How open is Islam to reformist movements?

No need for that as Islam already has its own tools in Ijma, ijtihad etc to cope with these issues.

 

[Champ_Pal]

and yet you are the one who is insistent that its not the same God as Allah when I quoted direct Sikh verses which I am guessing you did not pay attention to. So who knows more about it or the inner belief that generated such quotes right now? You or me?

Guru Nanak Dev​

ਬਾਬਾ ਅਲਹ੝ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ੝ ॥
O Baba, the Lord Allah is Inaccessible and Infinite.

ਅਲਾਹ੝ ਅਲਖ੝ ਅਗੰਮ੝ ਕਾਦਰ੝ ਕਰਣਹਾਰ੝ ਕਰੀਮ੝ ॥
He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.
By the way the translation of Bismilahe Rehman ur Rahim is “In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful“

Do you see the similarity?

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦ੝ ਅਥਰਬਣ੝ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ਅਲਹ੝ ਭਇਆ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
It is quite clear from these verses Sikhs believe its the same God. Even Hindus God for those who believe in a singular God is the same God.
That is the basis of all religion and considering this something superficial or very tiny piece of inspiration is nothing but an uneducated dismissive slight. It is actually the FOUNDATION of it all.

Anyhow, the idea is not about expressing the superiority of one over the other, believe me or not, it is actually me trying to tell you we have more in common than you think even religion wise, and that's an assertion you seem to want to continue to deny.
It is truly ok with me if you want to continue to believe so, it merely reinforces my belief the over usage of the term brother by some of you guys are is simply a facade. The 100% effort seems to be to ensure we are all very very different people and have nothing in common at all, and that to me is outright foolishness. If you want to claim more ownership of Sikhism, by all means go ahead. Hope it makes you sleep better at night.

The word Rama (ˈraːmɐ) appears in the Guru Granth Sahib more than 2,500 times. Guru Nanak rejected the concept of divine incarnation as present in Hinduism but used words such as Ram, Mohan, Hari & Shiv as ways of referring to the divine together with Islamic words like Allah & Khuda.

Sikhism uses Hindu Gods along with Allah to refer to God. This does not mean they pray to Arabic God or Ram or Krishna as Gods. The Guru Granth Sahib explains how all manifestations of God are just facets of the Most High, Har Har, and that the Lord of the Universe has created them all.

Har Har is one of the names of the formless God Wahe Guru. Har Har is Lord Shiva in Hinduism.
In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the name "Hari" refers to the one monotheistic God of Sikhism. Hari in Hinduism is Lord Vishnu.

Basically for Sikhs, there is one God. You can call him by many names. All Hindu Gods are just manifestations of that one single God Wahe Guru/Omkar etc.

I don't know if there are any Sikhs on this forum. If someone is there, they can clarify it better.

 

[CricketCartoons]

No need for that as Islam already has its own tools in Ijma, ijtihad etc to cope with these issues.

Sure, maybe Islam sees it close to perfect, and allows certain things to be adapted with current times, but there is vengeance against ahmadis.


It is like Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs fighting because each one disagrees with another.

Inclusiveness is when a hindu says Allah and Eishwar are same.

Can any muslim on PP show his inclusiveness by saying the same?

 

[Champ_Pal]

We believe everybody is born a Muslim. We call converts "reverts" .. I don't know how much more inclusive can you get than that.

Calling Newborns Muslims does not make any religion inclusive

Newborns have no concept of God. Their brains are not developed enough to understand basic things. Calling them Muslims is just too much. A newborn only cares about feeding and someone to take care of them.

I know it is in Islam to consider everyone born Muslim. Its only a claim. A baby does not do anything that a Muslim does.

 

[Stewie]

The word Rama (ˈraːmɐ) appears in the Guru Granth Sahib more than 2,500 times. Guru Nanak rejected the concept of divine incarnation as present in Hinduism but used words such as Ram, Mohan, Hari & Shiv as ways of referring to the divine together with Islamic words like Allah & Khuda.

Sikhism uses Hindu Gods along with Allah to refer to God. This does not mean they pray to Arabic God or Ram or Krishna as Gods. The Guru Granth Sahib explains how all manifestations of God are just facets of the Most High, Har Har, and that the Lord of the Universe has created them all.

Har Har is one of the names of the formless God Wahe Guru. Har Har is Lord Shiva in Hinduism.
In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the name "Hari" refers to the one monotheistic God of Sikhism. Hari in Hinduism is Lord Vishnu.

Basically for Sikhs, there is one God. You can call him by many names. All Hindu Gods are just manifestations of that one single God Wahe Guru/Omkar etc.

I don't know if there are any Sikhs on this forum. If someone is there, they can clarify it better.

I continue to be absolutely puzzled by the persistence of Hindu posters on this forum regarding this concept.

If you believe there is one God, why does it matter? obviously He is the same God who created all humanity. They believe in the same God in their own ways but does that make it a different entity? It is utterly puzzling to me why the insistence on God being a different entity

 

[Stewie]

Calling Newborns Muslims does not make any religion inclusive

Newborns have no concept of God. Their brains are not developed enough to understand basic things. Calling them Muslims is just too much. A newborn only cares about feeding and someone to take care of them.

I know it is in Islam to consider everyone born Muslim. Its only a claim. A baby does not do anything that a Muslim does.

Once against Brotha missed the whole point. That's ok. I pray that it comes to you eventually. Just don't give up trying.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Sure, maybe Islam sees it close to perfect, and allows certain things to be adapted with current times, but there is vengeance against ahmadis.


It is like Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs fighting because each one disagrees with another.

Inclusiveness is when a hindu says Allah and Eishwar are same.

Can any muslim on PP show his inclusiveness by saying the same?

Well Muslims believe that ALLAH is one and only God. Different religions use different terms to describe the same. But we don't use different terms to call our LORD except his own described attributes in Quran.

If you translate those attributes to different languages then it may resonate with terms used by other religions too.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Once against Brotha missed the whole point. That's ok. I pray that it comes to you eventually. Just don't give up trying.

Amazing response as usual.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Calling Newborns Muslims does not make any religion inclusive

Newborns have no concept of God. Their brains are not developed enough to understand basic things. Calling them Muslims is just too much. A newborn only cares about feeding and someone to take care of them.

I know it is in Islam to consider everyone born Muslim. Its only a claim. A baby does not do anything that a Muslim does.

Champ pal it may be a tricky concept for you. You need to do a search about concept of fitrah first in order to grasp itm

 

[Champ_Pal]

Well Muslims believe that ALLAH is one and only God. Different religions use different terms to describe the same. But we don't use different terms to call our LORD except his own described attributes in Quran.

If you translate those attributes to different languages then it may resonate with terms used by other religions too.

You have to consider the attributes of the God and what he or she does and promises to have a complete picture.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Champ pal it may be a tricky concept for you. You need to do a search about concept of fitrah first in order to grasp itm

Its a claim. Prove to me that Newborns are Muslims.

I will wait for your response.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Its a claim. Prove to me that Newborns are Muslims.

I will wait for your response.

Won't waste my time on it. If you are really sincere in knowing about it then the best person for consulting about it is a actual revert to Islam. As they have the firsthand experience

 

[IndoorCricket]

Lol... Islam is inclusive?? Infidels and kafirs disagree.. include other religions by taxing their faith. Calling others as worst of creatures. Islamists delusions knows no boundries.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Lol... Islam is inclusive?? Infidels and kafirs disagree.. include other religions by taxing their faith. Calling others as worst of creatures. Islamists delusions knows no boundries.

You certainly haven't read history then for sure. Read Jewish accounts during their diaspora phase. Or how the idol worshipers in sub continent embraced Islam due to ideal interactions and mannerism of Muslims

 

[Stewie]

You have to consider the attributes of the God and what he or she does and promises to have a complete picture.

so does that mean there are two (or N number of) different Gods sitting up there and they all created their own followers?

 

[cricketjoshila]

You certainly haven't read history then for sure. Read Jewish accounts during their diaspora phase. Or how the idol worshipers in sub continent embraced Islam due to ideal interactions and mannerism of Muslims

Idol worshippers were attacked. Their temples looted and broken. They were persecuted.

No region which resisted successfully the attempts of muslim invaders to convert the entire population has many good experiences to share.

Be it the muslim rule in Spain or Greece or Indian subcontinent or the Jews.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Won't waste my time on it. If you are really sincere in knowing about it then the best person for consulting about it is a actual revert to Islam. As they have the firsthand experience

What revert? No Hindu considers himself to be born a Muslim. Vedas predate Quran by nearly 4000 years.

Jews texts have nearly the same time difference and Jesus Christ predates Islam by some 600 years.

Buddha and Mahavira by nearly 1000 years.

 

[Champ_Pal]

so does that mean there are two (or N number of) different Gods sitting up there and they all created their own followers?

Everyone claims their god is the only true God. Who that God is or what he does varies vastly.

Just shows God is nothing but a human imagination.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Won't waste my time on it. If you are really sincere in knowing about it then the best person for consulting about it is an actual revert to Islam. As they have the firsthand experience

How does a revert know what a newborn thinks or does when it comes to God?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Ok then one simple question why the people there who embraced Islam reverted to their old religion. Do you have any explanation for this?

Idol worshippers were attacked. Their temples looted and broken. They were persecuted.

No region which resisted successfully the attempts of muslim invaders to convert the entire population has many good experiences to share.

Be it the muslim rule in Spain or Greece or Indian subcontinent or the Jews.

 

[Stewie]

Lol... Islam is inclusive?? Infidels and kafirs disagree.. include other religions by taxing their faith. Calling others as worst of creatures. Islamists delusions knows no boundries.

well that's what your masters would like you to believe but nothing is farther from the truth. You should also look into the so-called tax. either you pay the tax or your pay zakat. Since you are not Muslim, zakat does not apply for you pay jaziya. a lot of made of jaziya but its tax you pay the state as a citizen. like you would pay any country.

Islam is as inclusive if not more than other religions of the world. You just have to study it better to understand it. Don't believe your pay masters or stupid mullas who teach divisive and oppressive and distorted forms of it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

How does a revert know what a newborn thinks or does when it comes to God?

Check out this interview of a revert brother. It contains timestamp too. If you listen to it with open mind then you may get the truth. You can simply skip to your relevant parts of it too.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ok then one simple question why the people there who embraced Islam reverted to their old religion. Do you have any explanation for this?

Can you please clarify what are you asking?

 

[Stewie]

Everyone claims their god is the only true God. Who that God is or what he does varies vastly.

Just shows God is nothing but a human imagination.

oh now its clear to me where the root of this concept is really coming from. you are an athiest.

hahahah.. so as an atheist you are passing your expert opinion then, on when someone says they believe in God, what God exactly they are talking about and how that God differs from say the other guys's God? While all at the same time you don't believe in any of that yourself?

Did I get that right, Brother Champ_Pal?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

What revert? No Hindu considers himself to be born a Muslim. Vedas predate Quran by nearly 4000 years.

Jews texts have nearly the same time difference and Jesus Christ predates Islam by some 600 years.

Buddha and Mahavira by nearly 1000 years.

CJ if you think Islam just started 1400 years ago then you really need to read Quran, for your info all prophets in Judaism and Christianity are also prophets of Islam and Islam considers them a Muslim of that generation. Also the word Muslim literally means "the submitter to God's will'

 

[Champ_Pal]

oh now its clear to me where the root of this concept is really coming from. you are an athiest.

hahahah.. so as an atheist you are passing your expert opinion then, on when someone says they believe in God, what God exactly they are talking about and how that God differs from say the other guys's God? While all at the same time you don't believe in any of that yourself?

Did I get that right, Brother Champ_Pal?

My beliefs and faith has nothing to do with the question I asked.

Attack the question. Not the questioner.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can you please clarify what are you asking?

Why the people as you suggest were "forcefully converted" into Muslims didn't left Islam after Muslim rulers were kicked out of their land be it in Greece, Spain or Subcontinent?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Check out this interview of a revert brother. It contains timestamp too. If you listen to it with open mind then you may get the truth. You can simply skip to your relevant parts of it too.

Not going to watch 1 hour 20 mins of video.

Since you posted the video, you tell me how does a Newborn know he is a Muslim or how do we know all Newborns are Muslims?

 

[Stewie]

My beliefs and faith has nothing to do with the question I asked.

Attack the question. Not the questioner.

you dont have a question. you have an idea which you yourself are claiming you dont believe in. and you are somehow trying to convince us that's its true.

 

[Stewie]

Not going to watch 1 hour 20 mins of video.

Since you posted the video, you tell me how does a Newborn know he is a Muslim or how do we know all Newborns are Muslims?

How do we know they are not Muslims?
maybe they are atheists but they just don't know it yet?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Not going to watch 1 hour 20 mins of video.

Since you posted the video, you tell me how does a Newborn know he is a Muslim or how do we know all Newborns are Muslims?

Ok for especially your convenience, have found a short video. Hear directly from the former non Muslims themselves

 

[Champ_Pal]

How do we know they are not Muslims?
maybe they are atheists but they just don't know it yet?

I am not the one claiming that a diaper baby is a Muslim.

The burden of proof is on you.