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Honour Killings

How do you know that she will be divorced with multiple kids and will have multiple partners?

My friends aunt is married to a White Dutch guy and they are still together after 25yrs with 3 kids. 2 kids looked Indian and one kid looked totally white with blonde hair. I met them when they visited India 5yrs ago.

Not everyone in the West is about divorcing. We cannot stereotype all White people. :warne
Exactly! That poster himself is such a streotype!
 
This is something I don't understand about Pakistani parents. They bring their kids to these Western countries, and then expect their kids to adopt the culture, tehzeeb, understanding and values of a country and society they have never seen or at most, visited every couple of summers. It's almost like they want to raise their kids as psychologically disturbed by putting them in a cage in another country. It is ridiculous.

I think it's got to do with the heavy money mindedness of our people. They come to these Western countries disregarding the social/moral aspects of their decision. And then expectations on the kids to be some Godsend angels preprogramed to hate the society they are born in.
 
At least 675 women killed for ‘honour’ in 2011

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/20/at-least-675-women-killed-for-‘honour’-in-2011.html

ISLAMABAD: At least 675 Pakistani women and girls were murdered during the first nine months of the year for allegedly defaming their family’s honour, a leading human rights group said Tuesday.

The statistics highlight the scale of violence suffered by many women in Pakistan.

Despite some progress on better protecting women’s rights, activists say the government needs to do far more to prosecute murderers in cases largely dismissed by police as private, family affairs.

“A total of 675 women and girls were killed in the name of honour across Pakistan from January to September,” a senior official in the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan told AFP.

They included at least 71 victims under the age of 18.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is unauthorised to speak to the media, said figures were still being compiled from October to December, and that a full report would be released in February.

The Commission reported 791 honour killings in 2010 and there was no discernible decrease this year, the official added.

Around 450 of the women killed from January to September were accused of having “illicit relations” and 129 of marrying without permission.

Some victims were raped or gangraped before being killed, he said. At least 19 were killed by their sons, 49 by their fathers and 169 by their husbands.

Rights groups say the government should do more to ensure that women subject to violence, harassment and discrimination have effective access to justice.

Ali Dayan Hasan, Pakistan director at Human Rights Watch, told AFP that the state’s inability to enforce rule of law, leaving matters in the hands of tribesmen and local elders, was a major factor.

“We have a system in Pakistan where the state and judicial recourse are absent and the vacuum is filled by local elders,” he said.

“A combination of legal reforms, exercise of administrative authority and social awareness can greatly help check the honour killings,” he added.
 
This is a disgrace for human being......shameful act from the people who did it and equally shame for us too who allowed this to happen in our society .....:(

Not saying this for Pakistani News ...we too have very good share of this ........It happens in every part of the world.....disgrace.....:(
 
Canadian court convicts three Afghan immigrants of 'honour killing' of four females

Canada 'honour' killings: Shafia family found guilty

Three members of an Afghanistan-born family in the Canadian city of Kingston have been found guilty of murdering three daughters and a first wife in a so-called "honour" killing.

The victims' bodies were found in a car submerged in a canal in June 2009.

The girls' father and brother and the father's second wife will serve a minimum of 25 years in prison.

Prosecutors said the father was angered that his two eldest daughters wanted boyfriends, in defiance of his values.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16783354
 
Quotes from the honour-murderer (father):

"I would do it again 100 times"
"God's curse on them for generations. They betrayed Islam."
"May the devil ***** on their graves. Is that what a daughter should be? Would a daughter be such a whore?"


Under-age forced marriage seems to be the lesser evil to honour-killings.
 
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Yea , i just heard about that . People like Shafia should remain in Afghanistan , Pakistan or whichever country they belong to if they would like their kids to follow their culture and religion so much .
 
What is 'Honour Killings'.

How can it be an honour to kill innocent children ?

Is 'honour killings' an afghan culture or is it Islamic
 
^Its a cultural thing. It happens through out the sub continent, though more frequently at home in pak. People use religion as an excuse for their actions. It is not a reason for doing it. So the manifestation of thought about killing and then going ahead with it is cultural. They then use Religion to justify the act. That is how they can look at you straight faced and say it is permissible (even though quraan explicitly says to never kill your kin.)
 
Does anyone happen to know how concept of honor killing have made its way to our culture? I used to think that it was a cultural thing but after reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's views, it kind of changed my mind. What religious reasoning can be used to justify it? I have not read anything bout it in Quran but i have seen things in our society back home which led me to believe that it may not be just a cultural thing. For examples, in various small stores, i read things like "Ik be parda aurat ik beghairat baap, beghairat betay oar beghairat shohar kee nishani hay".
 
Whats the "honor" in honor killing ? Its used by morons to justify killing because their egos get bruised.
 
It originated with the caste nonsense. It still there, Indian buddy was disowned for marrying a girl of lower caste (whatever that is). Pakistani's have the caste system ever present, they just don't talk about it.
 
The girls may have lived a reckless life. Media generally hypes crimes if a Muslim is involved.
 
^
Yes, and that's why it was okay to kill them. A+ on parenting you get. The first wife (step mother) was also killed by the way.

Anyways, they got life sentences. Good.
 
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Why do you even come to the West if it's to kill your children when they do live a 'Western' life... it's either cultural fossils or economic prosperity, and by choosing Kannada over Afghanistan, you implicitly chose the second over the first, meh. :l
 
Does anyone happen to know how concept of honor killing have made its way to our culture? I used to think that it was a cultural thing but after reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's views, it kind of changed my mind. What religious reasoning can be used to justify it? I have not read anything bout it in Quran but i have seen things in our society back home which led me to believe that it may not be just a cultural thing. For examples, in various small stores, i read things like "Ik be parda aurat ik beghairat baap, beghairat betay oar beghairat shohar kee nishani hay".

Hindus and Sikhs have committed it too , so how is it Islamic ? Hirsi is anti Islamic .
 
This is another case of wrong place wrong time and being Muslim the case against them was made that much more stronger. Most sikhos who commit such crimes would stand up and proudly take accountability for their actions, I don't believe for a second that the three specially the mother would conspire to kill not one but three of her own children. If they weren't Muslims no way the jury would find them guilty based on circumstantial evidence which this case was based on.
 
I'm not following this case but how did the car get into that water body?
.
On June 30, 2009, a black Nissan Sentra with a broken left taillight was spotted submerged at the Kingston Mills locks, with four female bodies found inside. Mohammad Shafia was at the Kingston Police station to report that four of their family — three teenage daughters and a purported aunt — were missing.[14] Police initially believed that it was a tragic, if bizarre, accident, and first categorized it as a "sudden death investigation".

However, authorities soon learned that Hamed had reported an accident with the family Lexus SUV in an empty parking lot early that same morning in Montreal. Despite their suspicions, the authorities did not have "reasonable and probable grounds" or sufficient evidence to ask a judge for a search warrant. Kingston Police Det. Steve Koopman, the liaison with the Shafia family, managed to gain the Shafias' consent so that they could view the Lexus. After assessing the damage on both vehicles, police theorized that the Lexus was used to ram the Nissan into the locks.[15]

It has been reported that the Shafia family purchased the used Nissan Sentra for $5,000 CAD, one day before the family left Montreal for Niagara Falls, as the Shafias did not want to "waste fine cars on the four females that they would kill"
 
Does anyone happen to know how concept of honor killing have made its way to our culture? I used to think that it was a cultural thing but after reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's views, it kind of changed my mind. What religious reasoning can be used to justify it? I have not read anything bout it in Quran but i have seen things in our society back home which led me to believe that it may not be just a cultural thing. For examples, in various small stores, i read things like "Ik be parda aurat ik beghairat baap, beghairat betay oar beghairat shohar kee nishani hay".

The Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, along with other Canadian Muslim organizations, have publicly denounced domestic violence and honour killing as "un-Islamic"
.
 
Does anyone happen to know how concept of honor killing have made its way to our culture? I used to think that it was a cultural thing but after reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's views, it kind of changed my mind. What religious reasoning can be used to justify it? I have not read anything bout it in Quran but i have seen things in our society back home which led me to believe that it may not be just a cultural thing. For examples, in various small stores, i read things like "Ik be parda aurat ik beghairat baap, beghairat betay oar beghairat shohar kee nishani hay".

Whaaat? This post makes very little sense.

And those comments by the father were apparently heard when they secretly audio taped him. Have they been released to the public?

The family does not look particularly religious. If guilty, this is either a case of a domestic dispute murder or just the acts of ignorant, pseudo-conservative, prideful, un-islamic to the core, people of the hell fire.
 
Honor killings are not there in subcontinent only, its also common in Kurdish and Albanian areas + Levant Arab, but in a lesser extent
 
Hindus and Sikhs have committed it too , so how is it Islamic ? Hirsi is anti Islamic .

Yar i just asked if anyone knew how "honor killing" have made its way into our culture, like Islamic culture because as far as i know its not Islamic, there must be something other than religion and i talked bout Hirsi cause of <<< Some posters and you also pointed out to hindus and sikhs and i know that, i have heard so many times that its been in SC since forever but then i read bout turks living in Germany, they do it, kurds do it, Hirsi's people do it, so its just not restricted to one area i.e SC. I also quoted something in urdu and i typed that cause <<< i wanted to know if it comes from male domination, i grew up in NWFP and i have read those things in various bookstores.
 
Whaaat? This post makes very little sense.

And those comments by the father were apparently heard when they secretly audio taped him. Have they been released to the public?

The family does not look particularly religious. If guilty, this is either a case of a domestic dispute murder or just the acts of ignorant, pseudo-conservative, prideful, un-islamic to the core, people of the hell fire.


I was in a rush and just asked a random question without explaining things, i'm sorry bout that lol
 
What is really annoying is that CNN is carrying a headline on their site today:

"Tie between Islam, 'honor murders'?"

Just putting up such a title is negative publicity. There is no need for CNN to bring Islam into it in any way. Or if it does, then at least having a damning title that makes it clear that Islam prohibits such an act, instead of simply raising eyebrows and asking readers to make their own conclusions.
 
Kidnapped and Drugged for Family Honour-documentary

Documentary telling the shocking story of how a 23-year-old British girl was drugged and kidnapped by members of her family after refusing to go through with a marriage arranged by them, and secretly marrying someone else. With unique access to a specialist unit of Lancashire Police, cameras follow the investigation of a crime that split a family apart.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01kl00m/Kidnapped_and_Drugged_for_Family_Honour/
 
isnt drugging a bit more dishonorable thing to do?



what is wrong with some people, this is where education separates the well educated from the paindu
 
'Honour' killings

A couple of weeks ago, a former family friend was released from prison- served 14yrs for the murder of her daughter, along with her son who was the accomplice. The case in question is this:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/may/26/sarahhall

A horrific case that shocked the community. I can still recall it like it was yestreday. Today, I was informed that she visited my parents house out of the blue- she went on to tell my mum that she only realised what she had done when she saw her daughter's lifeless body lying in front of her, still has flashbacks etc etc & shed tears as she told her story- probably crocodile tears tbh. She certainly did well to make my mother feel sorry for her. How would others react? Would you feel sympathy for such people? I get a feeling that monsters like this woman get sympathy amongst elders in the Asian community.

Personally, I was angry and disgusted that she was allowed to step in the house. How can she even face the world after commiting such a henious crime?
 
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Though, a very heinous crime what she did is what most Pakistani parents would do, or try to. This is why leaving your country is not easy, you may still follow your culture and belief but your children won't, to me that's just hard to accept.
 
Re: 'Honour' killings

Though, a very heinous crime what she did is what most Pakistani parents would do, or try to. This is why leaving your country is not easy, you may still follow your culture and belief but your children won't, to me that's just hard to accept.

Excuse . if that was the case , there would not be at least one article in the papers everyday reporting honor killing there .

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
Despite what she did to her daughter, in a fit of rage, a sence of shame making the red mist come over, ... or whatever reason, .... she was still her mother, still the one who gave her birth, fed her, nursed her, ... and yes, loved her. The 14 years she served in prison would be nothing to the torment she felt/ still feels, inside.

I can guarantee, with absolute certainty, that if she could she would gladly give up her own life, take any punishment thrown at her, if only she could relive that day, not do what she did to her daughter and have her daughter back alive and well.

Anger and rage can make people do horrible things, even to their loved ones, perhaps even worse to those they love than to those they don't. So unless you can say you've never been angry with someone you love, you are in no position to say how the red mist could descend and take over and make you do things that you will regret for the rest of your life.

So no, I doubt the tears were crocodile tears, they were almost certainly 100% genuine tears, genuine remorse and hatred of herself for what she did to the one she loved and gave birth to.
 
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Despite what she did to her daughter, in a fit of rage, a sence of shame making the red mist come over, ... or whatever reason, .... she was still her mother, still the one who gave her birth, fed her, nursed her, ... and yes, loved her. The 14 years she served in prison would be nothing to the torment she felt/ still feels, inside.

I can guarantee, with absolute certainty, that if she could she would gladly give up her own life, take any punishment thrown at her, if only she could relive that day, not do what she did to her daughter and have her daughter back alive and well.

.

I have seen a couple of such people who have been absolutely unrepentant after killing their daughter. Parents and elder brother
 
I have seen a couple of such people who have been absolutely unrepentant after killing their daughter. Parents and elder brother
It would be a rare mother indeed who felt no inner hatred of herself for hurting the child she gave birth to. Besides, dont assume that the outward bravado, unrepentant show is not also hiding an inner torment.
 
I guess for some Muslims the honour of their daughter/sister is more important than her life.

The usual oversimplification from self-righteous kids who want to feel good about themselves more than understand the world. If one is willing to kill his/her daughter for her honor, it is of course not about he honor so much as taking pride in one's life path and, more importantly, living in that society. In Pakistan, honour is like a capital. If you have it, it gives you good social standing, good interactions with other people, good employement, good rishtas for your children,... If your daughter does something like this, you lose all perks of it and killing is one of the only ways to retrieve it lest you want to live a life of isolation, slanders and humiliation.
The Brit paks are, in essence, living under the same paradigm because most only speak a pakistani language, only know pakistani people, only do business with pakistani people (home or uk) so one can see that there are motives behind this from people trying to justify their actions with "daughter's honor".
 
I guess for some Muslims the honour of their daughter/sister is more important than her life.

I guess you're another ignorant guy. Such things happens all over the subcontinent, its a cultural thing not religious.
 
The usual oversimplification from self-righteous kids who want to feel good about themselves more than understand the world. If one is willing to kill his/her daughter for her honor, it is of course not about he honor so much as taking pride in one's life path and, more importantly, living in that society. In Pakistan, honour is like a capital. If you have it, it gives you good social standing, good interactions with other people, good employement, good rishtas for your children,... If your daughter does something like this, you lose all perks of it and killing is one of the only ways to retrieve it lest you want to live a life of isolation, slanders and humiliation.
.

You start off lecturing about self righteous kids and then end up saying something hardly any different

Call it "honor or call it "pride in one's life path", it is pathetic when parents kill their own children to maintain that pride.
In some societies, even rape victims commit suicide to enable their parents to regain "pride".

I would rather be self righteous and oversimplify such horrid practices than try to use logic to explain how it is not all that bad
 
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The killing of one's own child...potentially the most grave and unthinkable act of all
 
You start off lecturing about self righteous kids and then end up saying something hardly any different

Call it "honor or call it "pride in one's life path", it is pathetic when parents kill their own children to maintain that pride.
In some societies, even rape victims commit suicide to enable their parents to regain "pride".

I would rather be self righteous and oversimplify such horrid practices than try to use logic to explain how it is not all that bad

Explaining motives doesn't mean implying that it is not that bad but rather actually understanding root causes which can be used in the future for prevention.

As opposed to calling people mindless animals and then move on with your day, feeling good about your moral supremacy.
 
'Honour' killings

Personally, I was angry and disgusted that she was allowed to step in the house.

I can relate to this: a family were invited to my younger sister´s wedding in September 2011. Now, there was this son of theirs (embraced by the whole family) who had murdered his mother because he suspected that she was assisting his sister in having an affair. This happened in Pakistan around in year 2006 and the guy now lives in Germany. He was a policeman who used his pistol to the best effect - on his mother! He went unpunished because of this law that exists of being forgiven by the family of the victim.

Anyways, every other person was so worried as I had declared that he should avoid me at the wedding. It was like, "He is our relative after all!" Anyways, it never came to that point as he couldn´t reach due to something.

I have seen a couple of such people who have been absolutely unrepentant after killing their daughter. Parents and elder brother

I have often seen that fathers and brothers feel no guilt. As for mothers, well, to be honest I haven´t heard about too many incidents where a mother killed her daughter.
 
Despite what she did to her daughter, in a fit of rage, a sence of shame making the red mist come over, ... or whatever reason, ....

honour killings are not crimes of passion, they are usually planned and the parents or siblings are aware of the situation that leads up to the killing for many weeks if not months before hand in most cases.

Anger and rage can make people do horrible things, even to their loved ones, perhaps even worse to those they love than to those they don't. So unless you can say you've never been angry with someone you love, you are in no position to say how the red mist could descend and take over and make you do things that you will regret for the rest of your life.

you could defend any crime of passion in retrospect saying that, but truth is you can swear at people in anger, hit people in anger, maybe accidentally kill a stranger, what ever, but an honour killing is completely different.

you do not go off the handle and kill your family members, honour killings are psychologically justified by the perpetrators who have to want to do it deep inside. i find the apologetic nature of your reply either worryingly naive or deeply disconcerting.
 
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Though, a very heinous crime what she did is what most Pakistani parents would do, or try to. This is why leaving your country is not easy, you may still follow your culture and belief but your children won't, to me that's just hard to accept.

But surely the point of moving to a new country is to embrace a new culture, I've never understood people who move halfway around the world and carry on the same lifestyle they had and isolate themselves. It's like all these Brits who move to Spain and live in large communities of English speaking people, why bother moving there if you're not going to embrace the culture.

When you move to a country where the vast majority of the population don't share your belief or culture you have to accept that you're children would want to be more open minded and experience different things.

If everyone had that same narrow minded view of remaining within you're own cultures and beliefs we'd still be living like they did in the middle ages. As far as I'm concerned you only get one chance at life so why waste it living in one way when you can broaden you're mind by experiencing different things?
 
What's with the apologist posts in this thread? Very unexpected stuff, and rather uncomfortable to read.
 
The usual oversimplification from self-righteous kids who want to feel good about themselves more than understand the world. If one is willing to kill his/her daughter for her honor, it is of course not about he honor so much as taking pride in one's life path and, more importantly, living in that society. In Pakistan, honour is like a capital. If you have it, it gives you good social standing, good interactions with other people, good employement, good rishtas for your children,... If your daughter does something like this, you lose all perks of it and killing is one of the only ways to retrieve it lest you want to live a life of isolation, slanders and humiliation.
The Brit paks are, in essence, living under the same paradigm because most only speak a pakistani language, only know pakistani people, only do business with pakistani people (home or uk) so one can see that there are motives behind this from people trying to justify their actions with "daughter's honor".

Only thing which is true to some extent is "rishtas", even that is in rare cases. Rest is all exaggeration especially about good employment or business.
 
Take the life of a loved one, get dragged to court, name all over the newspapers, 14 years in jail with physical and mentall torment, family broken beyond repair.

:)) sounds honourable.
 
Shocking, some people get shunned and beats just because their partner is of different skin tone
 
How could she watch her own pregnant daughter getting murdered in front of her??

May be God can forgive her,but i can't.
 
Only thing which is true to some extent is "rishtas", even that is in rare cases. Rest is all exaggeration especially about good employment or business.

Business and employement in Pak is about networks. No network, No business or job.
 
What's with the apologist posts in this thread? Very unexpected stuff, and rather uncomfortable to read.

The mentality of most Pakistanis and Afghans. One person's apologist is another persons scholar and vice versa.

Do not see how anybody could have sympathy with this vile woman and her vile son. Both should have been given the death penalty.
 
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But surely the point of moving to a new country is to embrace a new culture, I've never understood people who move halfway around the world and carry on the same lifestyle they had and isolate themselves. It's like all these Brits who move to Spain and live in large communities of English speaking people, why bother moving there if you're not going to embrace the culture.

When you move to a country where the vast majority of the population don't share your belief or culture you have to accept that you're children would want to be more open minded and experience different things.

If everyone had that same narrow minded view of remaining within you're own cultures and beliefs we'd still be living like they did in the middle ages. As far as I'm concerned you only get one chance at life so why waste it living in one way when you can broaden you're mind by experiencing different things?


A great many people from the sub-Continent moved to the West for economic reasons, not to gain an education or broaden their minds. They see no point in learning about the culture of their adopted homelands, or about their hosts. They are happy in their arrogant ignorance.

Regarding your reference to the middle ages, people who engage in 'honour killings - surely a great contradiction in terms! - are living in the dark ages. Their family name means more to them than the lives of their offspring, who they treat like prized possessions, not like living, breathing, thinking, independent human beings.

I recall my late Father remonstrating with some narrow minded and uneducated people, who were trying to force their son into getting married - that too in his teens (he had complained to my Father, and asked him to intervene). They completely ignored my Father's advice, and forced their son into a disastrous marriage, which ended - some years and a few kids later - in divorce. Some of our neighbours were so terrified of my Parents that they would keep their children away from us, lest we pollute or contaminate them with our 'modern, Western ways' !
 
Honour killings were so common, that Islam came, and abolished honor killings and gave better status for women. Since the society is totally devoid of Islamic spiritually, the darkness is catching up with today's society. It's bad enough with honor killing, but people feeling no remorse of participating in honor killing is actually frightening. Sadly, this has become too common in Pakistan, and elsewhere in the most Muslim world, and possibly in less developed non-Muslim world, Allahu Alim.

I don't see any cure for this as today's society is main perpetrator behind the honor killing. People don't commit honor killing for fun, rather they do it to appease to society or to retrieve the former position, what Endymion has illustrated perfectly.

Take control of the society, and there might be little hope, Allahu Alim.

The problem is how do you get rid of the backward society or the backward mindset? Surely, the education is the key but i heard a lot of bad things in Karachi where a city comprises of majority of educated people. I think you need strict leader who is not afraid to implement anti-honor killing laws everywhere in Pakistan.
 
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you do not go off the handle and kill your family members, honour killings are psychologically justified by the perpetrators who have to want to do it deep inside. i find the apologetic nature of your reply either worryingly naive or deeply disconcerting.
In which case you clearly did'nt understand my post.

The point was not that it was justified, or that I'm making excuses for the killers, in fact I believe in capital punishment, but simply the fact that a mother, even if she kills her own daughter, will still be tormented inside for the rest of her life, often probably wishing fervently that she was the one who was dead instead, simply due to the fact that once the anger, the red mist, ... or whatever drove her to commit the murder, has subsided and the reality starts to sink in, she will start recalling the happiness and joy of carrying the child inside her for 9 months, giving them birth, bringing him/her up with love and tenderness, and the thought that in the end she was the one who took that childs life, is something even the most vilest of mothers will be tormented with. Hence my comment that I doubt the tears were crocodile tears, but actually real tears and inner torment.

Any other family member, other than a mother, committing a similar murder, would not have the same feelings of inner torment - as they did not carry the unborn children inside themselves and gave them life/birth in the first place.

So don't interpret my remarks that, yes, the mother will be tormented inside knowing that she killed her own daughter, as somehow justifying her actions in any way whatsoever - in fact, in my book, she should have been given capital punishment.
 
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maybe im just a cynic jav, and i feel rightly so in this case, but i dont buy the generalisation that all women who murder their kids feel regret over theirs actions, they may all uniformly regret having been caught. shafelia ahmed was killed in 2003, if her mother felt regret over her complicity in her daughters murder why did she not hand herself in over 7 years? the women in question even appealed that the sentence was too harsh

if you are afflicted with true grief or regret i would assume you attempt to make some little amends, social service, charity, educating young girls, etc , crying about your mental anguish in front of your former friends after having killed your own daughter, as far as im concerned is not one of them.
 
maybe im just a cynic jav, and i feel rightly so in this case, but i dont buy the generalisation that all women who murder their kids feel regret over theirs actions, they may all uniformly regret having been caught. shafelia ahmed was killed in 2003, if her mother felt regret over her complicity in her daughters murder why did she not hand herself in over 7 years? the women in question even appealed that the sentence was too harsh
Don't confuse inner anguish and torment with attempting to escape justice. They are not mutually exclusive.

if you are afflicted with true grief or regret i would assume you attempt to make some little amends, social service, charity, educating young girls, etc , crying about your mental anguish in front of your former friends after having killed your own daughter, as far as im concerned is not one of them.
Not neccesarily.

Lets look at a different type of scenario. Remember, (in the scenario I'm about to outline) I'm talking about the act of taking the life of one's own family member - for whatever reason - whether in anger, as a form of punishment, vengence .... or the opposite, such as easing pain and suffering.

So in terms of what I'm about to say, don't focus on the 'why' but the 'what', ie not the reason for the killing but the act of killing.Otherwise you'll misinterpret the point I'm trying to make.

OK?

When a person who loves someone so much that, if that loved one is in extreme pain with zero hope of recovery, they decide to take the loved one's life so as to stop their suffering, does that person not feel torment for what they've done? And would most people in that position not also try and evade justice if they possibly could since the law still regards it as murder? The point being that deliberately taking the life of a close family relative does not automatically preclude that person from, on the one hand, feeling anguish for what they have done, whilst at the same time attempt to evade justice if they possibly can.
 
The mentality of most Pakistanis and Afghans. One person's apologist is another persons scholar and vice versa.

Do not see how anybody could have sympathy with this vile woman and her vile son. Both should have been given the death penalty.

Do you feel it might be linked to the age old Hindu practice of Suttee (widow burning)?

Both Moghul and British rulers tried to end this practice with varied results.
 
Explaining motives doesn't mean implying that it is not that bad but rather actually understanding root causes which can be used in the future for prevention.

As opposed to calling people mindless animals and then move on with your day, feeling good about your moral supremacy.

The usual oversimplification from self-righteous kids who want to feel good about themselves more than understand the world. If one is willing to kill his/her daughter for her honor, it is of course not about he honor so much as taking pride in one's life path and, more importantly, living in that society. In Pakistan, honour is like a capital. If you have it, it gives you good social standing, good interactions with other people, good employement, good rishtas for your children,... If your daughter does something like this, you lose all perks of it and killing is one of the only ways to retrieve it lest you want to live a life of isolation, slanders and humiliation.
The Brit paks are, in essence, living under the same paradigm because most only speak a pakistani language, only know pakistani people, only do business with pakistani people (home or uk) so one can see that there are motives behind this from people trying to justify their actions with "daughter's honor".

What you are doing, sir, is sympathizing with and trying to justify the mentality that it is ok to murder in cold blood a defenseless girl if it results in preserving the 'honour' (whatever that is) of the family. Don't deny it. That's what you're doing.

Absolutely disgusting.

And I did not call them mindless animals. But I certainly do feel that I am morally better than someone who would murder their own daughter/sister. But hey, god forbid that we call a spade a spade. Please feel free to disagree with this simple bit of logic.
 
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You start off lecturing about self righteous kids and then end up saying something hardly any different

Call it "honor or call it "pride in one's life path", it is pathetic when parents kill their own children to maintain that pride.
In some societies, even rape victims commit suicide to enable their parents to regain "pride".

I would rather be self righteous and oversimplify such horrid practices than try to use logic to explain how it is not all that bad

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Damn society is to be blamed for these atrocities. As endymion248 has stated: people do this to stay 'honorable' in their respective societies.

Its a cultural problem. In 2007, Yazidi people murdered one of their 17 year old girl in town square for 'falling in love' with a Muslim Iraqi boy. The girl's elder brother was with mob who stoned this girl to death :(. Later when medics examined her dead body she was still a virgin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du’a_Khalil_Aswad. Video is at Youtube... horrible stuff.
 
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Lets look at a different type of scenario. Remember, (in the scenario I'm about to outline) I'm talking about the act of taking the life of one's own family member - for whatever reason - whether in anger, as a form of punishment, vengence .... or the opposite, such as easing pain and suffering.

So in terms of what I'm about to say, don't focus on the 'why' but the 'what', ie not the reason for the killing but the act of killing.Otherwise you'll misinterpret the point I'm trying to make.

OK?

When a person who loves someone so much that, if that loved one is in extreme pain with zero hope of recovery, they decide to take the loved one's life so as to stop their suffering, does that person not feel torment for what they've done? And would most people in that position not also try and evade justice if they possibly could since the law still regards it as murder? The point being that deliberately taking the life of a close family relative does not automatically preclude that person from, on the one hand, feeling anguish for what they have done, whilst at the same time attempt to evade justice if they possibly can.

i can only speak for myself, hoping never to be in the situation you describe, having not taken the decision lightly i would only be able to carry out that act by satisfying my personal morality and conscience, even with a smidgen of doubt i would lose heart to follow through on the act, doubly more so if the act was illegal in the country i was doing it in.

once the raw emotions of what i had done settled down any anguish i would feel would be exclusively for not having that person in my life, not of regret or guilt of having done the wrong thing. the primary difference given my possible reaction to that situation is that despite missing that person, i would still believe given my deliberation and judgement of the situation, what i did was right and hence i would be justified to myself in evading justice if the law of that land gave me no scope to argue my pov.

the analogy breaks down since the women in question could be anguished about not having her daughter in her life, but given my interpretation of your analogy, not able to reconcile true regret over what she had done whilst evading justice after her emotions had settled and she had time to process what she had done as an honour killing cannot be justified in any reference to any but the most twisted and disturbed moralities.
 
the analogy breaks down since the women in question could be anguished about not having her daughter in her life, but given my interpretation of your analogy, not able to reconcile true regret over what she had done whilst evading justice after her emotions had settled and she had time to process what she had done as an honour killing cannot be justified in any reference to any but the most twisted and disturbed moralities.
You are making references to justification in a manner that implies I am justifying honor killings, which I am clearly not, as evidenced by the fact that I also stated in an earlier post,which you quoted previously, that I believe capital punishment should be the penalty for such crimes, thereby completely twisting the gist of my post. Due to a failure on your part to correctly interpret the analogy I was attempting to convey, you are now deliberately insinuating that I would condone or justify such barbaric actions , and therefore, to use your own words, you are being 'immoral and showing disturbed morality' by throwing such vile accusations in my direction.
 
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Shocking, some people get shunned and beats just because their partner is of different skin tone

Yeah, so much worse than getting killed by your own parents and/or siblings just for having a partner, regardless of the skin tone.
 
Kill your own child because of what people might think, deranged people should he hanged .

The whole concept of shame/honour/besti found in the sub continent is backward.
 
You are making references to justification in a manner that implies I am justifying honor killings, which I am clearly not, as evidenced by the fact that I also stated in an earlier post,which you quoted previously, that I believe capital punishment should be the penalty for such crimes, thereby completely twisting the gist of my post. Due to a failure on your part to correctly interpret the analogy I was attempting to convey, you are now deliberately insinuating that I would condone or justify such barbaric actions , and therefore, to use your own words, you are being 'immoral and showing disturbed morality' by throwing such vile accusations in my direction.

dude why are you getting offended, my comments about vile morality were not directed at you, they were directed at her mom

not able to reconcile true regret over what she had done whilst evading justice after her emotions had settled and she had time to process what she had done as an honour killing cannot be justified in any reference to any but the most twisted and disturbed moralities.

im not in anyway insinuating you condone honour killings, simply highlighting the fundamental disparity of the two cases in your analogy, as asked i focused on the action committed at the time, and the deliberation upon that action after it had been committed, for which the initial motivations of the action cannot be perpetually ignored.
 
dude why are you getting offended, my comments about vile morality were not directed at you, they were directed at her mom



im not in anyway insinuating you condone honour killings, simply highlighting the fundamental disparity of the two cases in your analogy, as asked i focused on the action committed at the time, and the deliberation upon that action after it had been committed, for which the initial motivations of the action cannot be perpetually ignored.
In which case apologies for my previous post.
 
Yeah, so much worse than getting killed by your own parents and/or siblings just for having a partner, regardless of the skin tone.

Girls do get killed for having black/white bfs/partners

It's sickening, the first step should be to tell the partner to marry the girl and if they aren't responsible to do, politely tell them to do 1
 
Just read this article and figured it was worth sharing.

Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/said-texas-honour-killing-1696234-Oct2014/

ON 2 JANUARY, 2008, I sat in the common room of All Saints Hospital watching the local TV news, still in shock and trying to process the devastation of the day before. No amount of anxiety medication they gave me seemed to be enough. The anchor was describing a double murder.
On the evening of 1 January, the bodies of Sarah and Amina Said, sisters aged 17 and 18, had been found in the back of a taxicab in a hotel parking lot in Irving, Texas.
Their father, Yaser Abdel Said, had not been heard from since and was considered a prime suspect.
Some sources were speculating it was an “honour killing,” which Amina had chillingly predicted to me in private. Such crimes, which are tragically common in other parts of the world, typically involve the murders of female family members considered to have disgraced the family name, either by having a relationship the family disapproves of, spurning an arranged marriage, disobeying, or even being a victim of rape. According to the U.N. there are 5,000 such crimes each year around the world — a vast underestimate in the view of many international women’s-rights groups, who believe it could be four times that.
Amina was my girlfriend. And the supposed family honour she’d placed at risk? We’d done it together, simply by falling in love.

I’d barely spoken a word to anyone since my mother had awoken me the morning following the murder. With tears in her eyes she told me something awful had happened. My reaction on hearing the news was to punch the headboard of my bed or a wall. I’m still not sure. I lost it. I’d planned to spend the rest of my life with Amina, and everything I’d hoped for had suddenly come to an end. I was completely numb. I can hardly remember sitting with the ER physician as my mother signed the paperwork to have me admitted to the mental ward, but I know I didn’t fight the idea. What else could we do?
I was 15 when Amina and I first met, at the Excel Academy of Tae Kwon Do in a strip mall in Bedford, Texas. Amina walked in one afternoon in 2004 with her sister, Sarah, and brother, Islam, and I was smitten by her almost immediately.
Amina was beautiful. She had the most amazing green eyes I had ever seen. She was fiercely intelligent and full of spirit, and she always seemed to be smiling.
It wasn’t long before Sarah and Islam both gave up on the class. Their hearts weren’t in it. But Amina, who had recently gotten her driver’s license and a vehicle, was allowed to continue. She stuck with the class, and we developed a mutual crush.
Before long, we were both taking lessons three or four days a week, and not just because we loved martial arts. We went to different high schools and Amina wasn’t allowed to date. A lot of our relationship played out at the tae kwon do studio, in the beginning. We’d steal a few minutes to talk outside before or after class. She’d ask that we position ourselves between the martial arts storefront and an adjacent building so we couldn’t be spotted from the street in case her dad drove by. I’d later find out the gravity of this request.
Our instructor could see sparks were flying between us, and sometimes, with a sort of devilish look in his eye, he’d assign us to spar with each other. It made for a pretty tame matchup. The instructor used to bust Amina’s chops for not attacking aggressively enough. And I could never bring myself to be aggressive toward her at all. We both went easy on each other, but that wasn’t to say we didn’t love every second of it.

While Amina wasn’t an aggressive person, she was not shy. She loved to joke around, and she freely spoke her mind. That usually resulted in our instructor issuing a reprimand for “talking out of turn” and demanding multiple sets of pushups, but that still never deterred her from saying whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted to. That was Amina.
One day, as we were taking off our shoes and socks and getting ready for class, she saw me slip my cellphone into my sneaker. “Oh, you have a phone?” she asked. “Give me your number so I can bother you.”
I received her first message a few minutes after we left class, and we ended up texting back and forth all that night — the beginning of our becoming girlfriend and boyfriend.
It was puppy love, in the sense that it was innocent and sweet and went no further than a flurry of passed notes, some furtive hand-holding, and an occasional stolen kiss. But that doesn’t do justice to how deep it became.
That first text was the beginning of a four-year relationship. We planned a whole life together, spending hours on the phone fantasising about marriage and kids.
We promised to learn more about each other’s heritage — she was picking up Spanish and I planned to study Arabic with her.
Amina always seemed to be in a playful mood, teasing and messing with me. Whatever frame of mind I was in, she always found a way to make me smile. She brought out the best in me and made me genuinely want to accomplish things. She inspired me.
Gradually, she began to let on that her home life was troubled, but even then she tended to keep things vague. Her demeanour was so upbeat and positive; no one would ever have imagined what kind of hell she was living through at home.
Amina’s father, Yaser, was from Egypt, and although he’d married an American woman — Amina’s mother, Patricia — he had some very traditional notions about gender relations.
He viewed himself as the family patriarch and demanded total obedience. Yaser’s obsessive need to control his daughters went way beyond the usual overprotectiveness many parents feel toward their children. He forbade them to date and kept tabs on them virtually at all times, often video- or audio-taping them without their knowledge. His plan was to bring them back to Egypt, where they’d be forced into arranged marriages with older men, for a price. I later found out he’d been abusive to the girls — both physically and sexually — since they were little.

Given the circumstances, dating was tricky, and we had to be careful. We knew that if Yaser found out, it would be bad news for us. One time, when Yaser was out of the country, Amina was able to come out with my family and me to a church function.
Amina often imagined him spying on her with a pair of binoculars. It may seem paranoid, but the threat was genuine; she knew if she broke the rules, he’d hurt her badly. Once, when Sarah got an after-school job working in a store, he spied on her at work and punished her for smiling too much at the customers.
Despite all that, Amina was always the picture of calm. When she became concerned that her father might look through her cellphone for information about what she was up to, she suggested we use a secret code that sounded like something an intelligence agent would dream up.

A text of the number 7 meant that her father was planning to confiscate her phone and that no matter what texts I received after that, I should not reply.

It seemed like overkill at first, but then one night my phone buzzed with the agreed on code: 7. Not long after, another text came in. “Hey what’s up?” it read. “Can u call me?” I ignored the message just like she’d warned me, and in class the next day Amina confirmed that Yaser had taken her phone. He had apparently spent the evening driving around in his cab, texting her contacts at random, trying to prove she was deceiving him.
Shortly after that, we gave up on phones altogether and began passing a notebook back and forth, taking turns pouring our hearts onto the lined pages, or swapping folded notes at class. It seemed like a safer approach, but as we later found out, it wasn’t nearly safe enough.
Eventually, Yaser found a note Amina had written to me and demanded to know who she was communicating with. She lied and told him she’d written it to an imaginary boyfriend. She was always determined to protect me from the horrors she was enduring.
Apparently he didn’t buy the story. A few days later, Amina failed to show up for class. She didn’t come to the next session either, or the one after that. Months went by without a word. She’d vanished. With no possibility of getting hold of her, I imagined the worst.
Eventually, though, Amina reached out to our tae kwon do instructor with a message for me: Yaser had secretly bought a house in Lewisville, on the other side of the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, 60 miles away, and, overnight, he’d moved the whole family.

There was essentially no way we could see each other after that, but before long, Amina got a secret phone — a “burner” — allowing us to plot an escape.
The plan was to make Yaser believe we’d really broken up so that when she ran away, he wouldn’t go looking for me. She had a friend from school help her with this.
We were going to get married. We’d already exchanged rings, little rubber ones that were part of a punk-style bracelet set she’d bought at Hot Topic. I had to leave mine out in the sun to stretch it out. The rings were cheap but the meaning was real. As soon as we graduated, we promised we’d run away to Vegas, get married, and just split — get to somewhere safe and start a new life. She even started a list of what she was going to bring.
We knew the plan would take money, so in 2007 I quit high school, quickly got a GED, and found a job working in a factory fabricating water- and air-pressure hoses for aerospace companies.
The job paid good money, $15 an hour, and I saved every penny for the trip and our future.
Toward the end of the year, it became clear we’d have to move more quickly than we’d planned. Yaser was talking about bringing Sarah (who also had a secret American boyfriend) and Amina back to Egypt and forcing them into marriages.
He regularly threatened to kill Amina, and she knew he meant it.

I didn’t know this until much later, but at one point after they moved to Lewisville, he beat her brutally and demanded to know who she was seeing. Amina was the strongest and bravest person I have ever met, and she refused to tell him my name. She always wanted to keep me safe from him, knowing that if he’d found me, he would have killed me too. But I wouldn’t have cared if she had told him. The only thing that mattered was our being together

Right after dinner, Christmas day, I received a text from Amina. “We did it,” she wrote. “We left.” It turned out her mother had taken her and Sarah, hopped in the car, and just taken off.
“I’ll come to you,” I told her. “Where are you?”
It was too soon, she said, refusing even to tell me what city they’d gone to. Yaser and various family members were calling her mother non-stop, begging her to return, and Amina wasn’t confident their troubles were really over yet.
She was right. A few days later, they all returned home. It was a trap. Her mom apparently buckled under the pressure and tricked the girls into going back. Shortly after, on New Year’s Day, Yaser allegedly murdered both of his beautiful daughters and fled into the night.

More than six years later, he still hasn’t been caught. While there’s solid evidence that family members helped him hide and he may still even be in Texas, the local law enforcement authorities — who bungled the case from the beginning — seem to have mostly given up the hunt.

The last time I saw Amina it was summer. She’d told her family she was going to Six Flags with some friends. She didn’t mention that I was one of them.
We spent all day in the park — the most time we’d ever been together. Resolving not to talk about anything scary or difficult, we devoted the day purely to having fun. Losing ourselves in the massive crowds, we held hands nonstop. It was the only time we ever got to do that without worrying about the consequences.
Of course Amina wanted to go on the Titan roller coaster, one of the most hard-core thrill rides at the park. It’s pretty intense. People in line in front of us bailed at the last minute. But Amina didn’t seem worried. She insisted on waiting a few extra minutes so we could ride in the very front car. “It will be fun,” she promised. It was.
As we crested the 245-foot hill and began to speed downward, she threw her arms in the air, and I looked over at her. She was grinning, the biggest, most gorgeous smile I have ever seen. She wasn’t scared at all.


The Price of Honorr, a new documentary about the lives and murders of Amina and Sarah Said, is screening soon in San Francisco, Washington, D.C., and New York and at film festivals worldwide. The filmmakers have also launched an effort to bring Yaser Said to justice. Follow the progress at @catchyasernow.
 
'Honour' killings

Take the life of a loved one, get dragged to court, name all over the newspapers, 14 years in jail with physical and mentall torment, family broken beyond repair.

:)) sounds honourable.

An interesting and sensible take on such actions, but I suppose you must be knowing the following mentality: "Itni ghairat wala nikla ke beyti/behn maardi, par khaandaan ka naam daag-daar nahi´n honay diya."
 
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