Narendra Modi : Mega Discussion Thread

[11ShadyBrothers]

Rockstar showing his true colors.

 

[#GreenRoars]

Nothing special, this thing is common in SC

 

[cricketjoshila]

Retribution time....Modi is slowly taking out all his non-political opposers.

First it was the activist Teesta Seetalvad and now this guy. He has also made sure that the NGOs like Ford Foundation pay for supporting Seetalvad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/20/world/asia/teesta-setalvad-modi-india.html

No NGO from USA has the right to try and interfere in India's internal matters,the Ford Foundation was rightly shown its place and told to keep its propoganda out of India.

Teesta Setalvad is no saint.She has been accused by many of wrong doings.

btw Mr.Bhatt here kept quite for 9 years and suddenly a year before the 2012 Gujurat polls he remembered all this.Bhatt himself has a very chequered history as a policeman.

There is no doubt that Modi poorly handled the riot situation,but thats far from being complicit.

 

[Zahid87]

Dawood is in Karachi - his son Moin Nawaz went to the same school as a relative.

People who live in a certain area of the city can even point out his house to you if you want.

The whole establishment in India and Pakistan know it. They play out a charade for their respective populations. Pak denies he is there, and India never pushes too far. India does not want him back alive. And some people in the Indian establishment need him for their roz ki roti.

 

[Indiafan]

I am talking about bigger issues, not enforcing restrictions on some buildings encroaching district boundaries. Modi's govt has already banned gay relations, pornography and some books that rubbed them up the wrong way, and that is not how the successful western nations have developed. For example, while Bollywood is stifled by censorship, can it really compete with Hollywood which is making bigger encroaches into the Indian audience day by day as they thirst for original and imaginative material?

The supreme court has done the gay ban thing not Modi

The porn ban was immediately lifted and it was a misguided attempt to ban child porn

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Modi's Government didn't ban gay relations, they've just maintained status quo. The ban on pornography was a one day thing, thankfully. On the matter of books, the only thing Modi opposed was the inclusion of a chapter on his life story in some textbooks. Bollywood censors what they deem to be "vulgar", not necessarily the film's content. For example, Haider painted the Indian army in negative light, yet won critical and commercial acclaim and 5 National Awards (Govt. sponsored) to boot. Hope I've cleared your misgivings.

Outcry as Penguin India pulps 'alternative' history of Hindus

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/13/indian-conservatives-penguin-hindus-book

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Rockstar showing his true colors.

Not surprising to see his PR spokesman rocking up to tell everyone to keep their nose out of India's internal affairs either. Rock on PakPassion!

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Not surprising to see his PR spokesman rocking up to tell everyone to keep their nose out of India's internal affairs either. Rock on PakPassion!

He doesnt need your certification captain. Your opinion doesnt matter. Red carpets will be thrown around for rock star everywhere. Dont you know?

 

[Strike Rate]

C'mon no words against our very own Rockstar

 

[Abhilash93]

I am talking about bigger issues, not enforcing restrictions on some buildings encroaching district boundaries. Modi's govt has already banned gay relations, pornography and some books that rubbed them up the wrong way, and that is not how the successful western nations have developed. For example, while Bollywood is stifled by censorship, can it really compete with Hollywood which is making bigger encroaches into the Indian audience day by day as they thirst for original and imaginative material?

Those are not just 'some' buildings. These are temples we are talking about.

And,

1. Section 377 relating to same sex relations was overturned by Delhi HC in 2009 during Congress rule, thus decriminalising 'unnatural' sex. But later an appeal was filed in the Supreme Court & it was upheld in 2013 (when BJP was not in power).

http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/XCO...iminalization-of-homosexuality-Shaina-NC.html

2. Porn ban was as per the SC's orders on a petition filed by a lawyer against child pornography. It was lifted a couple of days later.

3. Yes, some books like the Doninger one & another on 'The Myth of Holy Cow' have been banned & I strongly oppose that decision. It is not a new thing though. Congress banned a book on Sonia Gandhi's life & some others during their rule.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Dawood is in Karachi - his son Moin Nawaz went to the same school as a relative.

People who live in a certain area of the city can even point out his house to you if you want.

The whole establishment in India and Pakistan know it. They play out a charade for their respective populations. Pak denies he is there, and India never pushes too far. India does not want him back alive. And some people in the Indian establishment need him for their roz ki roti.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=96424]RWAC[/MENTION] [MENTION=90229]Sandeep[/MENTION] Excellent time for some adventurous man hunt for you peeps in Pakistan? What do you say?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I expressed some concern how a party that espouses religious values or in the BJP's case, Hindu nationalist values can be good for business, and that is because capitalism usually doesn't go hand in hand with restrictive mindsets. I'm still not convinced that long term Modi will be able to embrace opening India up to change with a Hindutva agenda. Here's an article which lays out reasons why.

5 Reasons India’s new BJP (“Tea Party”) Government may not be so Great for Business

The victory of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in India’s elections is being hailed in some Western media as a hopeful sign for US-Indian trade and for Indian business. But like the US Tea Party movement, it is rent by internal contradictions that could derail such aspirations. The BJP has many resemblances to the American Tea Party movement. It is xenophobic (especially disliking Muslims). It is imbued by religious fundamentalism and often anti-science. It is hawkish in foreign policy. It is an advocate for the business classes and critical of government programs. Despite the latter position, it may not be as good for the Indian business sector as many observers assume.

READ MORE

http://www.juancole.com/2014/05/reasons-government-business.html

 

[BleedGreen]

Nobody is the gatekeeper of Islam, its a religion, its everyone's. Modern Arabs dont have a special claim to it, by this logic Greece is the gatekeeper of democracy and look how its doing these days

Nice answer

 

[Pak_Jazba]

Policeman who took on Narendra Modi sacked

New Delhi: India’s home ministry has fired Sanjiv Bhatt, a senior police officer who implicated Narendra Modi, now prime minister, in the slaughter of Muslims by a Hindu mob in Gujarat in 2002.

The dismissal of Bhatt, Gujarat’s deputy commissioner (intelligence) at the time, is the latest example of a crackdown against officials and activists who have challenged the official version of the 2002 riots, in which more than 1,000 people were killed.

Bhatt had told an investigation into the riots that Modi, then chief minister of Gujarat, had said that Muslims should be “taught a lesson” and Hindus must “be allowed to vent out their anger” after the deaths of Hindu pilgrims in a train fire that was initially blamed on Muslims.

Modi, who won a landslide general election victory last year at the head of the Bharatiya Janata Party, has denied involvement in the Gujarat massacres and says he “should be hanged in public” if his state government was responsible.

In a four-page order released on Thursday, but dated August 13, the home ministry said Bhatt “is not a fit person to be retained in service” because he had failed to prove his innocence in the disciplinary charges against him relating to unauthorised absence from duty.

Bhatt — who has received an outpouring of public support on his Facebook account from Modi’s opponents — complains of a “sham, ex-parte inquiry on completely fabricated charges” and contends that his absence was during the period when he was giving evidence to investigations into the 2002 violence.

“Be that as it may, the bottom line is that if the government of the day does not require my services ... so be it,” he wrote on Facebook. “I pray to God that He may continue to kindle and stoke the passion and fire that has possessed me all these years. May He continue to lead me in my just pursuits.”

Bhatt also poured scorn on an official complaint about his alleged appearance in a sex video, which he says was posted on Twitter by a known Hindu fundamentalist, and has responded that the man pictured is clearly someone else.

Modi’s opponents say the government is seeking to silence anyone with evidence against the prime minister, especially over the killings at the Gulberg Society, a Muslim neighbourhood in Ahmedabad.

Ehsan Jafri, a former member of parliament, was among the 60 or 70 killed there, although his wife said he made more than 100 calls for help to the state government and the police. As a senior police officer, Bhatt has said he spoke to Modi by telephone and met him in person to warn of the dangers of the mob gathering at Gulberg in the early afternoon, although this has been denied by Modi and Gujarat officials.

In April, the government placed the Ford Foundation, the US philanthropy group, on a national security watch list following complaints about its links to Teesta Setalvad, an activist seeking Modi’s conviction for human rights abuses in the Gujarat riots.

That prompted Richard Verma, US ambassador to India, to warn against a crackdown on nongovernment organisations. “I do worry about the potentially chilling effects of these regulatory steps focused on NGOs [nongovernment organisations],” he said.

Source : Gulfnews

Rockstar upto his old antics.

 

[sshakir411]

Yup..fine...one small correction above...confronting with Islam means confronting with Islamic fundamentalism..that I should have made clear..and confronting with Islamic fundamentalism is precisely the major reason why we elected our PM with such a majority and he is doing it fine..and second thing,confronting Pakistan..it's also in right track and you all know that your country cannot see internal peace,until and unless your country stops support to anti Indian terrorism..we are paying back in same coin and will pay back in more coins until your country stops it ...and well big LOL if u think majority of Brits are happy with fundamental Islam,which has creeped into majority of Muslims in Britain

it's not going to stop...since you've accepted what both countries are doing to each other are you still going to cry out loud after another 26/11 type attack?

 

[sully3]

Wont change the reality that South Asians dont get Emirate citizenship and Modi is welcomed by world leaders with a red carpet so you calling him whatever doesnt matter.

This is the biggest myth that GCC countries don't give citizenships to south Asians.

Half my family live in saudi and UAE and all are GCC nationals including passports. If you are of value to the nation or in a highly skilled field you will eventually get the citizenship.

For a common man NO, you won't get citizenship

 

[sully3]

Right now Modi is doing alot of talking and isn't backing it up. No point giving brave speeches when u can't back it

 

[Mystrey]

The issue is that common man in India believes that there is no point in talking about peace with Pakistan..that is scale of destruction Pakistan backed and Islamic terrorism has created in India..majority people support confrontation with Pakistan and Islam..we doesn't want our society to go British way..

Any Indian Muslim should read the bolded bit.

Shining India's 'secular'ness is a joke, at best.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Shining India's 'secular'ness is a joke, at best.

Yeah but we have a muslim minority that has just as much muslims as Pakistan, where are your minorities at >?? Ohh thats right they have been exterminated now that there is hardly any left....... Seriously Pakistanis should never point fingers at anyone lol .......

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Yeah but we have a muslim minority that has just as much muslims as Pakistan, where are your minorities at >?? Ohh thats right they have been exterminated now that there is hardly any left....... Seriously Pakistanis should never point fingers at anyone lol .......

Can you provide any evidence to back that up? Let me help you: exterminating of religious minorities is likely to occur if their are clashes between the minority groups of Pakistan and the majority Muslims (similar to Gujrat riots of 2002 in India), a separatist movement by a religious minority (Jammu and Kashmir) or a planned ethnic cleansing programme by the state.

Which one can be applied to the minorities of Pakistan? and if it is by another means then please enlighten, I'm fascinated to hear.

 

[the Great Khan]

Im sure this policeman has links to the ISI..

 

[Romali_rotti]

Can you provide any evidence to back that up? Let me help you: exterminating of religious minorities is likely to occur if their are clashes between the minority groups of Pakistan and the majority Muslims (similar to Gujrat riots of 2002 in India), a separatist movement by a religious minority (Jammu and Kashmir) or a planned ethnic cleansing programme by the state.

Which one can be applied to the minorities of Pakistan? and if it is by another means then please enlighten, I'm fascinated to hear.

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951. The decimation took five years not 50. After 1951, the Hindu population has hovered around the same 1.5-2 per cent mark. It is this tiny population that has been subjected to hardships, conversions, and denial of human rights that Sarkar and others have written about. Most of the 16 per cent Hindus who were present in Pakistan at the time of the partition either escaped to India or, most tragically, succumbed to the genocide that accompanied partition.

http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/01/09/the-vanishing-hindus-of-pakistan-a-demographic-study-2/

 

[KeyboardWarrior]

Lol ...

Contrary to the sensational media headlines about declining Hindu population in Pakistan, the fact is that Hindu birth rate is significantly higher than the country's national average. Although Hindus make up only 1.9% of Pakistan's population, it is among the worlds fastest growing Hindu communities today, growing faster than the Hindu populations in India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Indonesia.

Hindu Population in West Pakistan Source: Census Data

`Pakistan Census data. For 1931 and 1941, the figures are for West Pakistan in undivided India. For 1951 and 1961, the figures are for West Pakistan in undivided Pakistan. Data for 1971 could not be accessed.
Hindu population of the areas that now constitute Pakistan was 15% in 1931 India Census. It declined to 14% in 1941 India Census. Then first Pakistan Census in 1951 showed it was 1.3% after the massive cross-border migration of both Hindus and Muslims in 1947. Since 1951, the Hindu population of what is now Pakistan has grown from 1.3% to 1.9% now.

Top Countries With Hindu Populations Source: Pew Research Center

Hindu fertility rate (TFR) of 3.2 children per woman in Pakistan is much higher than nationalfertility rate of 2.86. With 3.33 million Hindus, Pakistan is currently home to the world's 5th largest Hindu population. By 2050, Pakistan will rank 4th with 5.6 million Hindus, surpassing Indonesia which is currently ranked 4th largest Hindu country, according to Pew Research.

While it is true that some Pakistani Hindus have been targets of religious bigotry and intolerance by some in the majority Muslim community, there are also many many examples of mutual tolerance and respect between Hindus and Muslims in the country. In the city of Mithi in Sindh's Tharparkar district, for example, Muslims do not slaughter cows out of respect for their fellow citizens of Hindu faith, and Hindus, out of respect for Muslim rites do not have marriage celebrations during the month of Muharram. Hassan Raza, a student journalist, quoted a resident of a village near Mithi as saying:

"In our village, Hindus and Muslims have been living together for decades and there has not been a single day, when I have seen a religious conflict. No loud speaker is used for Azaan at the time when Hindus are worshiping in their temple, and no bells are rung when it is time for namaz. Nobody eats in public when it is Ramazan and Holi is played by every member of the village."
Another example is Rohiri in Sindh where a visiting Canadian-Indian Hindu diplomatsaw a thriving Hindu community. Here's an except of how he describes his visit to Rohiri:

"One of the most interesting elements of the trip was visiting my father’s town, Rohiri, his birthplace. I found there was still a sizeable Hindu community there. That totally took me by surprise. We still think there was a massive religious cleansing in Pakistan and there were no Hindus left. Then I came across this family of shopkeepers who said, “Don’t worry about anything. Stay with us.” They gave me lunch and dinner and put me on the night train to Lahore. Talking to this family in the neighbourhood where my father grew up and was married was fascinating. The question that came to mind was why did my father’s family leave Pakistan and why are these people still here? Official figures suggest 14 million people were displaced after partition and that half a million to a million people were killed. And yet 60 years later these Hindu people in Rohiri are still there. They felt connected to the place where they were born. In the three towns I passed through I kept meeting Hindus — traders, professionals. Their numbers were small, 300 or 400 families in each of these towns. They have their own places of worship. I dared to ask: “Are you happy here?” and they said, “Yes, this is the land where we were born.”"

A successful Karachi-based Hindu Pakistani fashion designer Deepak Perwani said the following while talking to Indian mediain 2012:

"People keep asking me, 'Oh you guys didn't migrate?', 'How are you treated there?' and so on. The questions show a lack of awareness." Perwani is part of Karachi's flourishing Hindu community, which is small but visible and influential even today. One lakh of Karachi's 1.3 crore population is Hindu.
As Perwani puts it, a lot of what people say about Pakistani Hindus shows "a lack of awareness".

 

[Iqbal'sh]

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951. The decimation took five years not 50. After 1951, the Hindu population has hovered around the same 1.5-2 per cent mark. It is this tiny population that has been subjected to hardships, conversions, and denial of human rights that Sarkar and others have written about. Most of the 16 per cent Hindus who were present in Pakistan at the time of the partition either escaped to India or, most tragically, succumbed to the genocide that accompanied partition.

http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/01/09/the-vanishing-hindus-of-pakistan-a-demographic-study-2/

Time for you to go back to school son, and learn the difference between conversion, emigration and extermination.
That is unless you can provide evidence to suggest Pakistani Hindus have been exterminated en-masse. Heck even the source you linked clearly states that the % of Pakistani Hindus has remained steady at 1.3% since 1951.
Save me the explanation about how many people died during partition. Many Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs lost their lives, with many sources affirming the point that out of the three most Muslim lives were shed.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Time for you to go back to school son, and learn the difference between conversion, emigration and extermination.
That is unless you can provide evidence to suggest Pakistani Hindus have been exterminated en-masse. Heck even the source you linked clearly states that the % of Pakistani Hindus has remained steady at 1.3% since 1951.
Save me the explanation about how many people died during partition. Many Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs lost their lives, with many sources affirming the point that out of the three most Muslim lives were shed.

The drastic decline of Pakistani minorities

Faiza Mirza — Published Jul 28, 2012 08:36am




-Illustration by Faraz Aamer Khan.

It is fairly true that some people just do not learn the lessons. Maya Khan, the unprecedented queen of controversial morning shows, quite evidently remains one of them. Whether we talk about her endless stream of crocodile tears shed during the live transmission of her shows or her posse of women running after young couples, Khan certainly knows how to stir up sensation and ratchet ratings.

Khan, popularly known for running after people in the parks, was sacked after a social media campaign was launched against her. However, she was hired by another private TV channel soon for her sensationalism and controversies.

Her recent escapade, which involved converting a Hindu boy on live television, has angered many people. The show revolved around the ritual of conversion and people calling in to congratulate Khan, her team and Sunil, who was later, renamed Muhammad Abdullah.

When asked what motivated him to accept Islam, Sunil responded incoherently about his intentions. Most of his responses revolved around praising Sarim Burney Trust, where he works and supposedly received the courage to change his religion.

I am truly ashamed to have witnessed such a hideous mockery of the two religions. I am appalled to be a part of a society which hails such unjust and unethical practises and deeply saddened to know that minorities are blatantly marginalised on live television while the silent majority lives in denial.

It was ironical to see that not a single caller objected to this ridiculing of religions or safeguarding the rights of minorities living in Pakistan. I am positively sure that at this rate minorities will cease to exist in Pakistan.

It is rather disappointing to see that people such as Khan and Shahid Masood who are best known for gaining popularity through such shoddy tactics are being followed around like deities.

Amazingly, most of us fail to understand that spirituality and religion are matters of personal choices. Advertising and exhibiting religion is neither permissible in Islam nor is recommended by the ethical parameters of any progressive society. The bombardment of Ramazan transmissions featuring religious clerics, public and pseudo-religious scholars-cum-hosts that aim to question and reinforce the concept of faith, are nothing but promotional stunts to fool the public.

When will we learn? Why cannot we see that the only chance of our survival lies in tolerance and coexistence? Why cannot we respect other religions the way we honour Islam? How can a person who disrespects one religion, honour another?

The forced conversions and abductions of non-Muslims living in Pakistan are hushed-up whereas ‘victories’ such as the one we witnessed this week are publicised on national television, further intimidating and isolating minorities.

We talk about atrocities carried out in Indian Kashmir and the Gujrat riots but forget about the minorities who are living in constant fear of their lives, legacies and children. Khan’s show depicted the true picture of people because of whom the non-Muslims population in Pakistan is declining drastically.

Whether the conversion was forced or willful remains arguable, however, we all know how Pakistanis would have responded if a Muslim would have been converted on live television. The ensuing catharsis would have engulfed the entire country in a raging fire; however, the minimal reaction this episode has received just proves that we are a failed society.

Equally if not more, Pakistan’s media ethics are also to be questioned. The code of conduct which is found missing in most of the cases is one of the main reasons why such grotesque shows are approved for broadcast.

Who has given electronic media the right to disseminate such negative propaganda about religion? Is it not more important to address issues related to the suppressed minorities of Pakistan and broadcast messages of peace in harmony during Ramazan?

It is important to understand that unless we learn to live in mutual harmony, we will continue to suffer. The silent majority must rise and reprimand such media houses, producers and anchorpersons who entice masses to laud such medieval practises.

We saw a revolution on social media after Khan’s “chasing couples in park” fiasco and we must continue to raise our voice. The change will take time; however, it will also only be brought about by you.

http://www.dawn.com/news/737877/the-drastic-decline-of-the-pakistani-minority

 

[Romali_rotti]

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951

Drastic decline since 1941, now lets see what happened here ? Aliens caught them ? or they forgot how to breed ? Or have a guess.....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Cleansing Pakistan of Minorities

Farahnaz Ispahani


Pakistan’s religious minorities are widely viewed as embattled or under attack. This paper undertakes a comprehensive analysis of Pakistan’s policies towards its religious minority populations, both Muslim as well as non-Muslim. It is not only Pakistan where Muslim as well as non-Muslim minorities are under attack. Rather, this is a phenomenon which is prevalent in a number of Muslim-majority countries. In the context of a Muslim world comprising 1.4 billion people, with an extremely young population, not only is it important to recognize how Pakistan treats its minority populations but it is equally critical to note the role of stateless actors or extremist groups in all Muslim countries.

When Pakistan was founded in 1947, its secular founding fathers wanted to create a homeland for South Asia’s Muslims, not an Islamic state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah, recognized as Pakistan’s Quaid-e-Azam (Great Leader), clearly declared that non-Muslims would be equal citizens in the new country. But Pakistan’s trajectory after independence has been very different.

At the time of partition in 1947, almost 23 percent of Pakistan’s population was comprised of non-Muslim citizens. Today, the proportion of non-Muslims has declined to approximately 3 percent. The distinctions among Muslim denominations have also become far more accentuated over the years. Muslim groups such as the Shias who account for approximately 20-25 percent of Pakistan’s Muslim population, Ahmadis who have been declared non-Muslim by the writ of the state, and non-Muslim minorities such as Christians, Hindus and Sikhs have been the targets of suicide bomb attacks on their neighborhoods, had community members converted to Islam against their will, and had their houses of worship attacked and bombed even while they were inhabited by worshipers.

Even the graveyards of Christians and Ahmadis have not been spared. Regular reports of graves being excavated and vandalized appear in the press and via community reports. In Sindh and Balochistan provinces, well-to-do Hindus have been the primary targets of the ransom kidnappings. The numbers of minority Muslims and non-Muslims subjected to these purposeful attacks have increased significantly and the crimes committed have become more heinous. Those accused of “blasphemy” have sometimes been burnt alive outside police stations with no culprits identified or punished.

The origins of Pakistan were different. Reflecting his secular views, Mr. Jinnah nominated a Hindu, several Shias (of whom he was one) and an Ahmadi to Pakistan’s first cabinet. Now, however, non-Muslim representation at the Cabinet level is limited to symbolic appointments while Shias and Ahmadis face smear campaigns from Sunni Muslims that declare them non-Muslims.

Mr. Jinnah’s secular views were demonstrated not only during the struggle for independence but in his famous speech of August 11, 1947, in which he stated that in order to make Pakistan “happy and prosperous,” every person living in the country was a citizen “first, second and last,” irrespective of his or her community, caste, color or creed. His speech advanced the case for a secular, albeit Muslim-majority, Pakistan:


I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish . . . You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed--that has nothing to do with the business of the State . . . We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State . . . Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.1


As originally conceived, Pakistan was at the very least not intended to discriminate among various Muslim denominations, and non-Muslim minorities too were assured of equal rights as citizens. However, things have changed over the last several decades.

Despite the fact that Pakistan’s founding fathers were modern and liberal in their personal views, Islamism still took hold. The use of Islamic slogans and Islam during the 1946 elections preceding independence and in defining Pakistani nationhood immediately after independence resulted in a situation where slowly they conceded space to the Islamists.

The debates in Pakistan’s Constituent Assembly during the 1950s, prior to the finalizing of the country’s first Constitution of 1956, focused a great deal on the demand by the Islamists in the Assembly to pronounce Pakistan an Islamic state. There were ulema (Islamic scholars or clerics) both within and outside the government who championed this demand. Within the government, the clamor for an Islamic state was led by Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, President of the Jamiat Ulema Islam (JUI) and pir of Manki Sharif from the North West Frontier Province (now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa), and Maulana Akram Khan, President of the East Pakistan Provincial Muslim League.

The blueprint and arguments for the steps required to transform Pakistan into an Islamic State came from Abul Ala Maududi, founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI), the South Asian analogue of the Arab Muslim Brotherhood. According to Maududi, the future constitution of Pakistan had to be based on the underlying assumption that sovereignty rested with Allah and that the state’s function was solely to administer the country. According to him, Sharia was the law of the land and no man-made law could contravene the Sharia.

The extent of Maududi’s influence became visible as early as 1949, when the Objectives Resolution, defining the foundational principle for Pakistan’s Constitution was passed by the Constituent Assembly. The resolution stated,
•Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone but He has delegated it to the State of Pakistan through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him as a sacred trust.
•The State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people.
•The principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed.
•Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings of Islam as set out in the Quran and Sunnah.
•Adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures.
•Pakistan shall be a federation.
•Fundamental rights shall be guaranteed.
•The judiciary shall be independent.


Non-Muslim politicians objected to the notion of making state policy subservient to “the teachings and requirements of Islam,” which they rightly pointed out were subject to debate and variation. Bhupendra Kumar Dutta, a Hindu politician from East Bengal, warned that the resolution would lead to discrimination against non-Muslims and to internecine battles among Muslims. Politics, Dutta argued,


comes within the sphere of reason while religion within that of faith. If religion and politics are intermingled then there is a risk of subjecting religion to criticism, which will rightly be presented as sacrilegious and it would also cripple reason and curb criticism as far as the state policies are concerned.2


In response to objections, Liaquat Ali Khan, the mover of the resolution and Prime Minister, stated that “Pakistan was founded because Muslims of this subcontinent wanted to build up their lives in accordance with the teachings and traditions of Islam.”3 The Prime Minister, a secular individual, described the passing of the resolution, “as the most important occasion in the life of this country, next in importance only to the achievement of independence.”

Once Pakistan’s raison d’être had been defined in religious terms, the Islamist demands could not be held at bay. Maududi and his fellow Islamists said that citizenship in an Islamic state was open to any Muslim, born anywhere in the world, even if he was not born in the country. However, non-Muslims had to enter into a covenant with the Islamic state.

From Maududi’s point of view, Non-Muslim culture had a negative impact on Muslim life. “It destroys its inner vitality, blurs its vision, befogs its critical faculties, breeds inferiority complexes, and gradually but assuredly saps all the springs of culture and sounds its death-knell,” he wrote. According to him, “the Holy Prophet has positively and forcefully forbidden the Muslims to assume the culture and mode of life of the non-Muslims.”4

Over the years, the Islamist rejection of “non-Muslim” culture took the form of attempts to define a limited “Muslim” culture and limiting the freedom of non-Muslims and Muslims alike to embrace diversity. While non-Muslims were easily defined as “the other,” a struggle also started to determine who among Muslims were pure Muslims and who had allowed Persian or Indian culture and practices to taint their faith.

Similarly, Pakistan’s constitution has been amended to designate Ahmadis as non-Muslims. A similar drive, influenced by Salafi ideology from Saudi Arabia, has been undertaken by Deobandi groups against the Shias. A terrorist offshoot of the Deobandi movement (Takfiris—those who declare some Muslims as kafirs or unbelievers) has been escalating atrocities against Shias in an effort to drive them out of the country or to force them to accept a lowered status in an Islamized Pakistan. Their targets have included men, women and children. Today, Shias form around twenty percent and Ahmadis around 0.22 percent of Pakistan’s population.

Pakistan’s non-Muslim minorities, particularly Sikhs and Hindus, were “cleansed” during the partition riots at the time of independence. Attacks against Muslim minorities started as early as the 1950s when anti-Ahmadi demonstrations and riots took place. They culminated in the 1974 amendment of Pakistan’s Constitution according to which Ahmadis were no longer to be treated as Muslims. The rise of contemporary sectarianism, however, dates back to the 1980s.

Top-Down Islamization

According to Muhammad Qasim Zaman, sectarianism in Pakistan started out as an “urban phenomenon.”5 However, over the years it has transformed into much more than that. A combination of socio-economic factors, state-led Islamization and international events (like the Islamic Revolution in Iran) have played their role in the rise of Shia-Sunni tensions.

General Zia ul Haq, Pakistan’s third military ruler who ruled from 1977-88, imposed a policy of state-led Islamization. Till the time of Zia, most Islamists believed, like Maududi, that given the opportunity any good Muslim would vote an Islamist party into power and set up an Islamic state. By the 1970s it was evident that given the choice Pakistanis, like others, voted for political parties which promised them roti, kapra, makan (food, clothing, housing). This led to what Vali Nasr refers to as the phenomenon of “top-down Islamization” in countries like Malaysia and Pakistan.

As part of this Islamization process General Zia brought in rules and regulations which were supposed to bring Pakistani law more into tune with the Sharia, or at least the Sharia as interpreted by him and his cohorts. These laws, which included the infamous blasphemy law, had a long-term impact on Pakistan’s minorities.

In an attempt to organize the country around one version of Islam, General Zia’s policies targeted the Shias. In 1979 General Zia attempted to impose a policy under which zakat (charity) would be collected directly by the state from each Muslim citizen. Under protests from Shia groups, Zia changed the policy so that only Sunnis would pay it. This led to the rise of Sunni radical organizations and their militant offshoots and, in response, Shia militant outfits.

Pakistan’s Shias belong to different ethnic and linguistic groups and different tribes. They are spread all over the country. A number of leading Pakistani political figures, professionals, academics and media personalities are from the Shia community. Yet this community not only has faced discrimination but has been targeted and attacked by radical Islamist groups of all hues. The one thing that unifies them in the eyes of the anti-Shia Sunni-led militant groups is their religious belief.

The anti-Shia militants roam with impunity, appear on prime-time talk shows on television and hold political rallies where they declare Shias as unbelievers and Wajib-ul-Qatal (deserving of death). These anti-Shia groups have ties to political parties that afford them both political influence and protection. They are rarely arrested, even after they proudly and publicly announce their deeds—like in the repeated massacres in 2013 of Hazara Shias in Quetta. When they are arrested, these terrorists have access to mobile phones in prison, receive visitors openly and are often released swiftly on their own recognizance. The few who have been tried have always been acquitted by Pakistan’s judiciary on the grounds of “lack of evidence.”

The anti-Soviet Afghan jihad of the 1980s not only helped the groups in Afghanistan, it had a massive blowback on Pakistan. Money from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries poured in for madrassas all over Pakistan, bringing curricular changes, a Wahhabi (or as it is referred to in South Asia, Ahl-e-Hadith) version of Islam and its views of both Muslim as well as non-Muslim minorities.

The curricular changes were not only in the religious schools but also the secular ones. An entire generation of Pakistanis studying in public (and secular) schools has grown up viewing not only non-Muslim minorities but also Muslim minorities as “the other,” as “unpatriotic,” and as “not Muslim enough.”

These Islamist groups have also been used by the coercive apparatus of the state for their own foreign and security policy agendas. In 1971, the East Pakistan wing of the Jamaat-e-Islami aligned with the Pakistani military to crack down on its fellow citizens, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Bengali Muslims were often portrayed as “too Hindu” to be true Muslims. The Islamist groups in both India and Afghanistan, supported by the military-intelligence complex, believed in the same ideological goals as their sectarian brethren.

There has been a steady decline in religious tolerance in Pakistan over the last 65 years. At the time of Pakistan’s birth and the partition of India in 1947, non-Muslim minorities comprised twenty-five percent of the new country’s population, whereas today they only comprise five percent. According to the last census in Pakistan which collected such data, conducted in 1998, Christians constitute 1.59 percent and Hindus 1.60 percent of Pakistan’s population. While much of the “cleansing of the population” took place in major events (partition, around the 1965 and 1971 wars), there has also been a steady rise in incidents involving attacks on both Christians and Hindus in the last decade.

The small and ever-decreasing Hindu minority has faced a steady barrage of forced conversions and kidnappings, often for ransom. In the last few years there has been an increase in the number of Hindu families migrating or seeking asylum in neighboring India.

One incident of forced conversion of a young Hindu woman that garnered a lot of media coverage was that of Rinkel Kumari. She was abducted with the help of a ruling-party lawmaker and forced to marry and convert to Islam. This is just one case of abduction and forced religious conversion in Pakistan, with around 20-25 kidnappings and forced conversions of Hindu girls in Sindh every month according to a report by the Asian Human Rights Watch.

Discriminatory laws implemented during the 1980s and violence against religious minorities continues to remain of serious concern.Pakistan’s infamous “Blasphemy Law” has targeted religious minorities on a regular basis. Asia Bibi, a poor Christian woman from Punjab, was the first woman in Pakistan’s history to be charged with blasphemy and sentenced to death. In early 2012 a young Pakistani Christian girl, Rimsha Masih, was accused of blasphemy though fortunately the case was dismissed in November 2012. In spite of the case’s dismissal by the court, Rimsha Masih and her family had to be kept in a safe house in Pakistan to prevent vigilante actions against her. Rimsha and her family now live in Canada.

In August 2010, in the town of Gojra in Punjab, seven Christians were burnt alive, 18 others injured and at least 50 houses set on fire by a mob that accused the victims of blasphemy. As a member of parliament, I recall vividly the calls for help from Gojra’s Christians and the effort that had to be made to get the Punjab provincial government and the army to go in and defend the population from bloodthirsty zealots.

Among Muslim-majority countries, Pakistan has the strictest anti-blasphemy laws. Although the law against blasphemy goes back to the days of the British Raj in the subcontinent, the new strictures were introduced during the military regime of General Zia ul Haq. The key section of Pakistan’s Penal code relating to Blasphemy is Section 295. “Damaging or defiling a place of worship or a sacred object,” and “defaming the Holy Prophet of Islam” are among the crimes under these laws with penalties ranging from a fine to death. What is of concern is the fact that according to these laws, “intent of a person to commit blasphemy” is all that is required for conviction. The law is generally not applied to Muslims defiling non-Muslim places of worship.

During the British era, blasphemy laws were used infrequently and were reserved for prosecution of clerics, authors and preachers who caused inter-communal violence by attacking other faiths. But since 1982, any individual can be charged with blasphemy, leading to vigilantism and frivolous accusations against Pakistan’s minorities, especially Christians. Before 1986, only 14 cases of blasphemy had ever been reported under this law, whereas between 1986 and 2010 1,274 people had been charged.6

Islamic parties have strongly and often violently resisted acts that they deem blasphemous, but what is worrying is that today even mainstream and relatively socially liberal parties are maintaining a strong “anti-blasphemy” stance. Prominent political figures like Salmaan Taseer, the former governor of Punjab province, and my colleague in parliament Shahbaz Bhatti, former Federal Minister for Minorities, were assassinated in 2011 for their opposition to the blasphemy laws. Although neither said anything even remotely blasphemous, extremist clerics took the position that opposing laws against blasphemy construed promotion of blasphemy, rendering the two politicians liable to punishment by death.

The first stated purpose of the blasphemy laws is to protect Islamic authority. By Article 2 of the Constitution, Islam is the official state religion. Article 31 states that it is the Pakistani government’s duty to foster an Islamic way of life. Article 33 states that is the country’s duty to discourage parochial, racial, tribal, sectarian, and provincial prejudices among the citizens. Unfortunately, Article 33 of the Constitution has never been utilized to protect the Muslim and non-Muslim minorities in Pakistan in a serious, disciplined method.

Along with the non-Muslim minorities, Ahmadis, who deem themselves a sect within Islam but Orthodox Muslims consider heretics, are targeted for prosecutions under various provisions of the blasphemy laws. Radical Sunni Islamist groups frequently target Ahmadis for attacks, both at their mosques as well as in public places. The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan periodically issues statements “congratulating” Pakistanis for these attacks, referring to the Ahmadiyya and Shia communities as “the enemies of Islam and the common people.” After each act of violence against religious minorities, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi or Sipah-e-Sahaba proudly take responsibility without fear of punishment.

In early March 2013, in Lahore, the capital of Pakistan’s largest province, Punjab, a mob attacked and burned down more than 40 houses belonging to Christians while the police stood by. The attacks on Christians followed a rising tide of attacks on Pakistan’s Shia Muslims and were often mischaracterized in the media as the products of sectarian conflict. In reality, these increasingly ferocious attacks reflect the ambitious project of Islamists to purify Pakistan, making it a bastion of a narrow version of Takfiri Islam. Pakistan literally translates as “the land of the pure.” However, what started in an imperceptible way as early as the 1940s and picked up momentum in the 1990s is a drive to transform Pakistan into a land of religious purification.

Will Pakistan Survive?

The rising radicalization of Pakistani society reflects willful disregard for the rights of its minority populations and also unwillingness among many politicians and bureaucrats to confront the Islamist extremists. The policy of Pakistan’s security services to use religious extremists in regional battlegrounds such as Kashmir and Afghanistan also contributes to their impunity.

In the May 2013 elections in Pakistan, Zia’s Islamization legacy came back to haunt Pakistan. While the nomination papers of moderate and liberal civilian politicians were often rejected on the grounds that they did not pass the litmus test of religiosity and commitment to Pakistan’s ideology, militant and terrorist leaders faced no such problem. It was a clear signal that the State wanted to acknowledge violent extremists as part of the national political mainstream.

A process of society-wide Islamization, begun under Zia ul-Haq, has now reached its full bloom with the wide presence of radical Islamist groups who eliminate any opposition and a greater society that is too stunned to react. Over the last few years there has also been a steady elimination of anyone who opposes this Islamist narrative, including Benazir Bhutto, Salmaan Taseer, Shahbaz Bhatti and others.

The purification of Pakistan started soon after partition from India and was then institutionalized and legalized by military dictator Muhammad Zia ul-Haq. The Islamists are prevailing in the battle of ideas. Secular voices have been either physically eliminated or removed from the mainstream by judicial means. Therefore, it is in the interest of Pakistan’s neighbors and the international community to support the minority communities in Pakistan and to support the voices of those Pakistanis who refuse to give up the idea of a pluralist society.

http://www.hudson.org/research/9781-cleansing-pakistan-of-minorities

 

[Iqbal'sh]

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951

Drastic decline since 1941, now lets see what happened here ? Aliens caught them ? or they forgot how to breed ? Or have a guess.....

The sources you provide illustrate conversions not exterminated, the word you used a few posts back. You still have not come up with one example of the Pakistani Hindu population being exterminated. Seems you maybe struggling to grasp the difference between these words.
As for the decline between 1941 and 1951, can you think of some event that may have occurred in between these dates that could have caused a change in demographics? Google is your friend buddy, do some reading.
You don't give up even after [MENTION=133868]KeyboardWarrior[/MENTION] posted the rise in Pakistani Hindu population to 1.9% in the last census.

 

[Romali_rotti]

The sources you provide illustrate conversions not exterminated, the word you used a few posts back. You still have not come up with one example of the Pakistani Hindu population being exterminated. Seems you maybe struggling to grasp the difference between these words.
As for the decline between 1941 and 1951, can you think of some event that may have occurred in between these dates that could have caused a change in demographics? Google is your friend buddy, do some reading.
You don't give up even after [MENTION=133868]KeyboardWarrior[/MENTION] posted the rise in Pakistani Hindu population to 1.9% in the last census.

I look at forced religious conversion as extermination, the Pakistani minorities have to take up something they don't want (Islam) or risk the consequences such as their lives being threatened. Pathetic how Pakistan's minorities are in the 1 and 2 percent when the Indian muslim population is thriving along with the Christians... Stop throwing stones from a glass house...

 

[Monday Morning]

Im sure this policeman has links to the ISI..

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and you're woeful even at that

 

[Iqbal'sh]

I look at forced religious conversion as extermination, the Pakistani minorities have to take up something they don't want (Islam) or risk the consequences such as their lives being threatened. Pathetic how Pakistan's minorities are in the 1 and 2 percent when the Indian muslim population is thriving along with the Christians... Stop throwing stones from a glass house...

Conversion does not equate to extermination end of, sensationalising your posts will lead to ridicule, not being able to back up your posts with facts will also lead to mocking.
Since you are now harping on about forced conversions, the Pakistani Hindu population did not drop from 14% to 2% because of conversions so you are posting complete garbage.
Again you are clueless about the reality, the concept of Pakistan was a separate Muslim homeland so for even 1-2% Hindus to remain after 1947 is marvellous. Here's what some of those say about life as a Hindu in Pakistan:

"In our village, Hindus and Muslims have been living together for decades and there has not been a single day, when I have seen a religious conflict. No loud speaker is used for Azaan at the time when Hindus are worshiping in their temple, and no bells are rung when it is time for namaz. Nobody eats in public when it is Ramazan and Holi is played by every member of the village."

Another one:

"One of the most interesting elements of the trip was visiting my father’s town, Rohiri, his birthplace. I found there was still a sizeable Hindu community there. That totally took me by surprise. We still think there was a massive religious cleansing in Pakistan and there were no Hindus left. Then I came across this family of shopkeepers who said, “Don’t worry about anything. Stay with us.” They gave me lunch and dinner and put me on the night train to Lahore. Talking to this family in the neighbourhood where my father grew up and was married was fascinating. The question that came to mind was why did my father’s family leave Pakistan and why are these people still here? Official figures suggest 14 million people were displaced after partition and that half a million to a million people were killed. And yet 60 years later these Hindu people in Rohiri are still there. They felt connected to the place where they were born. In the three towns I passed through I kept meeting Hindus — traders, professionals. Their numbers were small, 300 or 400 families in each of these towns. They have their own places of worship. I dared to ask: “Are you happy here?” and they said, “Yes, this is the land where we were born.”

Both quotes are taken from [MENTION=133868]KeyboardWarrior[/MENTION]'s post above so you can check the source from there no doubt.

Final thing about this issue, as pointed out before the Pakistani Hindu population has actually increased in % terms since 1951, by more than 0.5%. Do the maths and figure out how this is possible if they are being forcefully converted.
I think it's time to educate yourself on something other than Indian state propaganda.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Conversion does not equate to extermination end of, sensationalising your posts will lead to ridicule, not being able to back up your posts with facts will also lead to mocking.
Since you are now harping on about forced conversions, the Pakistani Hindu population did not drop from 14% to 2% because of conversions so you are posting complete garbage.
Again you are clueless about the reality, the concept of Pakistan was a separate Muslim homeland so for even 1-2% Hindus to remain after 1947 is marvellous. Here's what some of those say about life as a Hindu in Pakistan:

.

Read the article on religious cleansing that was wrote by your own countrymen which I posted above... Dont give me your oh oh everything is ok in Pakistan for religious minority crap, we know the reality is quite different. Dont worry we will keep this conversation going for a while..


The Asian Human Rights Commission reported 20-25 kidnappings and forced conversions of Hindu girls in Sindh every month. The Hindu population, especially those living in Larkana and Sakkhar divisions of Sindh, were mostly affected by forced conversions, kidnapping for ransom, and other forms of harassment.

Pakistani officials do not openly admit forced conversion but rather claim such incidents are voluntary. However if these conversions were largely voluntary, they would have occurred throughout all segments of the Hindu population, irrespective of age. Instead, a majority of conversions involve young, attractive Hindu girls, and are often linked to incidents of forced marriage.

A pertinent example of this is the Rinkle Kumari case. Nineteen-year old Kumari was allegedly kidnapped by the influential local politician Mian Abdul Haq (aka Mian Mithhoo) of the ruling Pakistan People’s Party and forcibly married to his son. The Dargah Aalia Qadria Bharchoondi Sharif madrassa, where Kumari was converted, is headed by Mithhoo and is popular for converting Hindu girls. It reportedly aims to convert 2,000 Hindus to Islam every year.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/opensecurity/maitreya-buddha-samantaray/pakistan’s-disappearing-hindus



Conclusion
HAF concurs with several other human rights organization in expressing serious concern over the government of Pakistan�s continued failure to restore democracy and tacit support for ongoing human rights violations against minorities. Pakistan is not a free country today by internationally recognized criteria. Freedom House rates the political rights enjoyed by Pakistan�s citizens at 6 (one above the lowest grade of 7), and civil liberties enjoyed at 5 (two above the lowest grade of 7).[xcii] Pressure must be brought upon Pakistan to rescind discriminatory laws. As the U.S. considers Pakistan an ally in the war against terrorism, it is important that U.S. leadership impress upon the Pakistan government the necessity for social and political reform. Hindus in the Sindh and Balochistan provinces are subject to a variety of human rights abuses�and the egregious rape and kidnapping of women must be stopped immediately. HAF recommends that the United States Congress increase dialogue on this issue with official hearings, investigations and site visits, and that a fact-finding committee organized by the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) be dispatched to Pakistan urgently.


http://www.hafsite.org/pdf/hhr_2005_html/pakistan.htm

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

maybe all Indians should pack their bags and get out of the Middle east.

Just because of one comment? There is no difference between that guy and you then.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Perhaps all the Indians who live in Britain should apply for Indian visas and jog on back there if it's so bad here.

Even if they were born in england and never been to india?
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] are you reading it bro? This is what i was talking about. How easily people ask others to leave the country where they are living, have their homes and jobs just because of few dumb people's comments on internet. That was my point.

 

[Slog]

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951

Drastic decline since 1941, now lets see what happened here ? Aliens caught them ? or they forgot how to breed ? Or have a guess.....

Partition happened. Many Hindus left for India and even greater number of Muslims came into Pakistan. You have heard about the cross border migration right I hope?

(Not denying that there are issues with minority treatment but there was no genocide type scenario which you would love to believe is the case. Sometimes a little bit of research goes a long way.)

 

[Romali_rotti]

Partition happened. Many Hindus left for India and even greater number of Muslims came into Pakistan. You have heard about the cross border migration right I hope?

(Not denying that there are issues with minority treatment but there was no genocide type scenario which you would love to believe is the case. Sometimes a little bit of research goes a long way.)

Partition happened YES agreed. I mean a lot of Pakistanis cry foul about the mistreatment of Muslims in India but you have to admit a lot of Muslims went to Pakistan during partition and there weren't as many left in India yet currently Indian Muslim population has increased so much it is equal or ahead of Pakistan you compare that with the Hindu minority of Pakistan which has increased by .5 percent ? I mean what the hell ? they forgot how to breed ? lol..

 

[Yossarian]

Perhaps all the Indians who live in Britain should apply for Indian visas and jog on back there if it's so bad here. .

Even if they were born in england and never been to india?

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] are you reading it bro? This is what i was talking about. How easily people ask others to leave the country where they are living, have their homes and jobs just because of few dumb people's comments on internet. That was my point.

No that I agree with that particular sentiment, because I don't. However, just to be pedantic, don't keep ignoring the word "back" as in "back to", "go back", which doesn't apply to Kashmiris on the Indian side of LOC being told to pack their backs, get out, and go to Pakistan, as that has nothing to do with going "back" since they were never in Pakistan in the first place!

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

No that I agree with that particular sentiment, because I don't. However, just to be pedantic, don't keep ignoring the word "back" as in "back to", "go back", which doesn't apply to Kashmiris on the Indian side of LOC being told to pack their backs, get out, and go to Pakistan, as that has nothing to do with going "back" since they were never in Pakistan in the first place!

I agree. Same theory should be applied to those indian origin people who have never been to india and born abroad. They should not be asked to go back to india because of few dumb people. Am i right?

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Read the article on religious cleansing that was wrote by your own countrymen which I posted above... Dont give me your oh oh everything is ok in Pakistan for religious minority crap, we know the reality is quite different. Dont worry we will keep this conversation going for a while..

Who is the "we" that you allude to? You personally know very little, other than what is fed to you via Indian state propaganda.
Still no examples of Pakistani Hindus being exterminated. Religious cleansing, forced conversions or whatever name you want to give them happen in much larger numbers in India. Be it the Christian missionaries converting the low caste Dalits, or the Hindu organisations closely aligned to Modi who are vociferously following the unfortunate practice of "ghar wapsi".
Funny, the source that you posted attributes much of the blame onto the high caste leaders of the Pakistani Hindus:

In this way, Hindus themselves must bear some of the responsibility for the plight of their community. Furthermore, Hindu leaders, mostly upper caste, often exhibit apathy towards incidents of forced conversion because the victims in most cases belong to the lower castes.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Partition happened YES agreed. I mean a lot of Pakistanis cry foul about the mistreatment of Muslims in India but you have to admit a lot of Muslims went to Pakistan during partition and there weren't as many left in India

Serious question, how old are you?
So how many Muslims went to Pakistan in 1947, and how many were left behind?
Same with the Hindu migration, how many went to India and how many remained in Pakistan?

 

[KeyboardWarrior]

Some Indians wants to debate on topics but with thre own terms and conditions.
they dont accept if pakistani posters shares links and articles or research.
according to them, EVERY Pakistani is delusional, and they (Indians) think they belong to 1st world country and blah blah blah.
Ok, thn, [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]:
You can sue Pew for thre research about Pakistani Minorities ....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Religious cleansing, forced conversions or whatever name you want to give them happen in much larger numbers in India. Be it the Christian missionaries converting the low caste Dalits, or the Hindu organisations closely aligned to Modi who are vociferously following the unfortunate practice of "ghar wapsi".
Funny, the source that you posted attributes much of the blame onto the high caste leaders of the Pakistani Hindus:

180 Million muslim population with a 20 plus million Christian population. Meanwhile in Holier than thou Pakistan we have a .5 percent increase in a minority population ) ).... Christian missionaries are not threatening the dalits with their lives if they don't convert....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Who is the "we" that you allude to? You personally know very little, other than what is fed to you via Indian state propaganda.
Still no examples of Pakistani Hindus being exterminated. Religious cleansing, forced conversions or whatever name you want to give them happen in much larger numbers in India. Be it the Christian missionaries converting the low caste Dalits, or the Hindu organisations closely aligned to Modi who are vociferously following the unfortunate practice of "ghar wapsi".
Funny, the source that you posted attributes much of the blame onto the high caste leaders of the Pakistani Hindus:

1,000 minority girls forced in marriage every year: report

WASHINGTON: An estimated one thousand Christian and Hindu women are forced to convert and marry Muslim men in Pakistan every year, says a report released on Monday.

According to a report by the Movement for Solidarity and Peace in Pakistan, up to 700 of these women are Christian and 300 are Hindu.

“The true scale of the problem is likely to be much greater, as a number of cases are never reported or do not progress through the law-enforcement and legal systems,” the authors claim.

The MSP also issued an appeal for action along with this investigative report detailing forced marriages and conversions of Christian girls and women in Pakistan.

The Christian community in Pakistan is over two million in size, accounts for 42 per cent of Pakistan's minority population, and is mostly resident in Punjab.

MSP’s investigations find that cases of forced marriages/conversions follow a distinctive pattern: Christian girls — usually between the ages of 12 and 25 — are abducted, converted to Islam, and married to the abductor or third party.

The victim's family usually files a First Information Report for abduction or rape with the local police station. The abductor, on behalf of the victim girl, files a counter FIR, accusing the Christian family of harassing the willfully converted and married girl, and for conspiring to convert the girl back to Christianity.

Upon production in the courts or before the magistrate, the victim girl is asked to testify whether she converted and married of her own free will or if she was abducted.

In most cases, the girl remains in custody of the abductor while judicial proceedings are carried out.

Upon the girl's pronouncement that she willfully converted and consented to the marriage, the case is settled without relief for the family. Once in the custody of the abductor, the victim girl may be subjected to sexual violence, rape, forced prostitution, human trafficking and sale, or other domestic abuse.

These patterns of violence and miscarriages of justice are explored in the report through an examination of 10 illustrative cases.

The report also describes the historical and social context of the problem, and the particular grievances of Pakistan's Christian community in relation to the existing legal, political, and procedural guarantees for the protection of human rights of Pakistan's religious minorities. The report also highlights the patterns of violence through which the law and social attitudes become complicit in providing immunity for perpetrators, and the complex nature of associated crimes that make it difficult to categorise this crime as specific to religious identity. The report concludes with detailed recommendations at various levels — national, provincial, and local — for key stakeholders.

MSP is mobilising an inclusive coalition to raise awareness on this issue. MSP will host outreach events in the coming weeks in Pakistan (in collaboration with the National Commission of Justice and Peace in Pakistan) and around the world.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1098452

Pakistani source above not Indian state propaganda..

 

[Yossarian]

I agree. Same theory should be applied to those indian origin people who have never been to india and born abroad. They should not be asked to go back to india because of few dumb people. Am i right?

Depends. If they classify themselves as Americans, British, Canadians etc. first and foremost, and regard these countries, and not India, as their 'homeland', but who happened to be of Indian origin, then yes, I agree. Same goes for those of Pakistani origin but born outside Pakistan.

But then again, depending upon how many generations you go back, should these Americans, British, Canadians even be classified as "of Indian or Pakistani origin", and not "British India origin", or even "Moghul India origin"? After all, the Jews are using similar justification, despite hundreds of generations of being Germans, Russians, Poles, British, Americans (after having been Germans, Russians, Poles etc in between) to still go and claim that the land which is currently known as Israel belongs to them and not to those Palestinians (both Muslim and Christian) who have lived there for hundreds of generations.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

180 Million muslim population with a 20 plus million Christian population. Meanwhile in Holier than thou Pakistan we have a .5 percent increase in a minority population ) ).... Christian missionaries are not threatening the dalits with their lives if they don't convert....

Getting boring now, still no evidence of extermination of the Hindu minorities. Keep on googling son, you never know ........
I too could start to post every article in relation to ghar wapsi, maybe riots of 2002, Khalistan uprising etc but I'll refrain and instead let your small mind indulge itself.

Btw did you figure out how many Muslims were left behind in India after 1947? Google will help, your complete ignorance notwithstanding.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Getting boring now, still no evidence of extermination of the Hindu minorities. Keep on googling son, you never know ........

I quoted a Pakistani source earlier child, with the heading 1,000 minority girls forced in marriage every year.. Whats the matter you cant give me a straight up reply to the injustice that is happening in your country ? .I already said earlier, forced conversion = extermination in my eyes.


I too could start to post every article in relation to ghar wapsi, maybe riots of 2002, Khalistan uprising etc but I'll refrain and instead let your small mind indulge itself.

Khalistan lol even the majority Sikhs now don't support it but nice try was cute of you to bring it up.

Btw did you figure out how many Muslims were left behind in India after 1947? Google will help, your complete ignorance notwithstanding.

I do not care how many stayed and how many left, my point has been proven; Muslim minorities in India increased to the size of your whole Pakistani population, while one section of your minority after partition has increased by a pathetic .5%. If us Indians thought like you muslims in Pakistan we probably would only see a .5% increase in the muslim population also. Credit where its due Indian minorities flourished in comparison to the Pakistani ones.

Bold...

 

[anakin]

Getting boring now, still no evidence of extermination of the Hindu minorities. Keep on googling son, you never know ........
I too could start to post every article in relation to ghar wapsi, maybe riots of 2002, Khalistan uprising etc but I'll refrain and instead let your small mind indulge itself.

Btw did you figure out how many Muslims were left behind in India after 1947? Google will help, your complete ignorance notwithstanding.

Sir, Do you know that religious minorities in Pakistan cannot vote for a Muslim in Pakistan? talk about rights of minorities.

Come talk, when you are able to elect or even have a candidate from a minority for any top post in Pakistan.
I would consider a captain of Pakistan cricket team too for this criteria

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Bold...

If you are an example of the intelligence within India, then only God can help that country.
Yet you have the gall to call Pakistanis brainwashed.
Mate you are so ignorant you cannot comprehend the basics of demographic shifts after the partition. I'm not going to help you. Do the reading yourself and if you can't understand it then ask an elder.
Now run along....

 

[Romali_rotti]

If you are an example of the intelligence within India, then only God can help that country.
..

lol Pot calling Kettle, look at the state of your country; its a mess, it is going nowhere, has had no significant achievements since it was created, has a government that allows a foreign country to drone its land and kill its citizens for money and also living off foreign aid.. Yeah I think India will be fine thanks, if you actually had any moral sense you wouldve acknowledged the difficulties your minorities are facing in your country, I have quoted Pakistani sources..

 

[anakin]

If you are an example of the intelligence within India, then only God can help that country.
Yet you have the gall to call Pakistanis brainwashed.
Mate you are so ignorant you cannot comprehend the basics of demographic shifts after the partition. I'm not going to help you. Do the reading yourself and if you can't understand it then ask an elder.
Now run along....

A country which could not conduct only one census in the last 34 years because of the fear that minorities might find voice to their anger based on actual numbers.
Yup, there can be no official stats on actual minority population in Pakistan after partition because its not carried out, because minorities dont matter!

Grant basic, equal voting rights to minorites atleast sir. Your country is not democratic when all its citizens dont have equal votes.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

lol Pot calling Kettle, look at the state of your country; its a mess, it is going nowhere, has had no significant achievements since it was created, has a government that allows a foreign country to drone its land and kill its citizens for money and also living off foreign aid.. Yeah I think India will be fine thanks, if you actually had any moral sense you wouldve acknowledged the difficulties your minorities are facing in your country, I have quoted Pakistani sources..

I was born and have lived in the UK my whole life. So none of that, even if true, applies to the country I reside in, your ignorance in not spotting the Union Jack next to my avatar.

Show me where I have disagreed that forced conversions do not happen?
Actually I continue to question your sensationalist attention seeking posts, calling forced conversion as exterminations. Found any evidence yet?
Gujrat riots, Kashmir, Khalistan uprising can you find anything similar happening with Pakistani minorities?
These type of events are the pre-cursors to the extermination of minorities. Anything to say about ghar wapsi?

How about the partition figures? Did you ask someone to help you make sense of all those numbers and what they mean? So how many Muslims were left in India after 1947, and likewise how many Hindus stayed in Pakistan? Don't ignore the issue, because the answer will blow up your theories around Hindu extermination.

 

[Syed1]

A country which could not conduct only one census in the last 34 years because of the fear that minorities might find voice to their anger based on actual numbers.
Yup, there can be no official stats on actual minority population in Pakistan after partition because its not carried out, because minorities dont matter!

Grant basic, equal voting rights to minorites atleast sir. Your country is not democratic when all its citizens dont have equal votes.

Come back and talk when you stop putting people in prison for eating beef.

 

[#GreenRoars]

lol Pot calling Kettle, look at the state of your country; its a mess, it is going nowhere, has had no significant achievements since it was created, has a government that allows a foreign country to drone its land and kill its citizens for money and also living off foreign aid.. Yeah I think India will be fine thanks, if you actually had any moral sense you wouldve acknowledged the difficulties your minorities are facing in your country, I have quoted Pakistani sources..

No one is denying about minorities, yes they are facing problems. But at least, they are being bombarded like India bombarded kashmir today. Talking about democracy, India is democratic? Oh yes, India is. But no rights for kashmiris, No significant achievements? Nuclear tech, missiles, e.t.c e.t.c but yes they are not achievements because they are done in Pakistan.

 

[#GreenRoars]

If you are an example of the intelligence within India, then only God can help that country.
Yet you have the gall to call Pakistanis brainwashed.
Mate you are so ignorant you cannot comprehend the basics of demographic shifts after the partition. I'm not going to help you. Do the reading yourself and if you can't understand it then ask an elder.
Now run along....

I doubt, he can't accept this.

 

[90MPH]

lol Pot calling Kettle, look at the state of your country; its a mess, it is going nowhere, has had no significant achievements since it was created, has a government that allows a foreign country to drone its land and kill its citizens for money and also living off foreign aid.. Yeah I think India will be fine thanks, if you actually had any moral sense you wouldve acknowledged the difficulties your minorities are facing in your country, I have quoted Pakistani sources..

Actually It really shows how insecure you are when you have to chest thump on a Pakistani forum to keep on portraying on how great India is and how bad Pakistan is when you have never been to the country and you are getting your information from nothing but pro hindu pro Indian state propaganda.

India is literally a 3rd country, like many other developing countries in the region ,that's the reality hence your family ran off to Australia.

It's the biggest joke when Indians like you and pro fanatical Modi supporters harp on about minorities in Pakistan when India has a dismal and quite frankly disgusting record on the issue.

Pot calling the kettle black, sure. But only from your side.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

A country which could not conduct only one census in the last 34 years because of the fear that minorities might find voice to their anger based on actual numbers.
Yup, there can be no official stats on actual minority population in Pakistan after partition because its not carried out, because minorities dont matter!

Grant basic, equal voting rights to minorites atleast sir. Your country is not democratic when all its citizens dont have equal votes.

The last complete and published census was in 1998.
The Pew research centre did some extensive surveys concerning global Hindu population, in 2010 the Hindu populace within Pakistan was 3.3 million, by 2050 it will be over 5.6 million. The fertility rate of Hindus in Pakistan is 3.2, whilst the national average is 2.5. So the Hindu population is growing quicker than the national average. Hope that allays your concerns.

 

[anakin]

The last complete and published census was in 1998.
The Pew research centre did some extensive surveys concerning global Hindu population, in 2010 the Hindu populace within Pakistan was 3.3 million, by 2050 it will be over 5.6 million. The fertility rate of Hindus in Pakistan is 3.2, whilst the national average is 2.5. So the Hindu population is growing quicker than the national average. Hope that allays your concerns.

Thats the one I counted sir, the one before that was 1981. So one census in 34 years.
or if u want to count it as 2 against required 4 in the same duration!

As for comparison, can you give demographic update on minority population in 1981 and 1998. I am unable to find it.

Fertility rate doesnt equal population growth. Plz share the link about growth estimates you quoted.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Thats the one I counted sir, the one before that was 1981. So one census in 34 years.
or if u want to count it as 2 against required 4 in the same duration!

As for comparison, can you give demographic update on minority population in 1981 and 1998. I am unable to find it.

Fertility rate doesnt equal population growth. Plz share the link about growth estimates you quoted.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/hindus/
It is a likely indicator though, for example if Hindu families are having on average 3.2 children whilst nationally families are having 2.5 then all other things being equal the Hindu population will increase.
A 0.5% increase in Hindu minority is significant given we are talking of 3.5 million against overall 170 million approx. it certainly dispels the myth of en-masse conversions leading to a reducing in the Hindu population.

There is another attempt at a census in 2016 with the UN overseeing the process. There have been previous failed attempts in 2008, 2010 and the 2012 effort was deemed unreliable. That is more to do with govt deficiencies then anything else.

 

[Abhilash93]

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/08/21/pakistans-hindu-temples/

http://newseastwest.com/multicultural-india-has-more-mosques-than-any-muslim-country/

 

[Slog]

Partition happened YES agreed. I mean a lot of Pakistanis cry foul about the mistreatment of Muslims in India but you have to admit a lot of Muslims went to Pakistan during partition and there weren't as many left in India yet currently Indian Muslim population has increased so much it is equal or ahead of Pakistan you compare that with the Hindu minority of Pakistan which has increased by .5 percent ? I mean what the hell ? they forgot how to breed ? lol..

Those Pakistanis who cry foul about mistreatment of Muslims in India but deny the terrible treatment of their their own minorities are naive and.or hypocrites. Because its worse here these days and there is lot of extremism as well. (Though to be fair till late 80s it was much better for our minorities but then again its not a competitions)

But I am just saying that you are empiricallly wrong in your statement that there has been a genocide as such. And that is true because the numbers dont even support that. To determine what you want to show you will have to look at the data numerically and compare the out-migration of the Hindu population (1947 and beyond) and rate of growth and compare that to the Muslims. The out migration of Muslims as a percentage is lower and in nominal terms the growth of the Muslim population is huge which is why the percentage of the Hindu population will always remain low. So the numbers dont support your claim at all.

Ofcourse Ill stress again that does not mean there is no persecution of minorities because there is and for some minorities (Ahmadis) even at state level. Many Hindu families especially also happen to be usually very poor from interior Sindh so the chances of them getting exploited due to their socioeconomic condition increases even more. A lot of times they are bullied and converted too but that is a function of their vulnerability due to their economic conditions. The state should protect them. But then in Karachi there are some very rich Hindu families too and due to them being rich no one can even touch them so it goes both ways. There are hundreds of problems agreed but there is no concerted genocide as such as you say.

As far as Indian Muslims are concerned, even after the post partition migration the number of Indian Muslims and the number of Muslims in West Pakistan was roughly the same so it is not beyond the realms of imagination that the population number for them is so high. Most Muslims which went to Pakistan were either from UP, Delhi, Punjab, Bihar and Hyderabad anyways and even then there were a lot of them left back in India.

Anyways whats your issue here with the other posters? That they are talking about treatment of minorities in India? I mean there are issues everyone has to admit (scale may vary acc to diff people) and as long as they dont have their head in the sand about what happens with Pak minorities whats wrong in having a discussion?

 

[Romali_rotti]

I was born and have lived in the UK my whole life. So none of that, even if true, applies to the country I reside in, your ignorance in not spotting the Union Jack next to my avatar.

Show me where I have disagreed that forced conversions do not happen?
Actually I continue to question your sensationalist attention seeking posts, calling forced conversion as exterminations. Found any evidence yet?
Gujrat riots, Kashmir, Khalistan uprising can you find anything similar happening with Pakistani minorities?
These type of events are the pre-cursors to the extermination of minorities. Anything to say about ghar wapsi?

How about the partition figures? Did you ask someone to help you make sense of all those numbers and what they mean? So how many Muslims were left in India after 1947, and likewise how many Hindus stayed in Pakistan? Don't ignore the issue, because the answer will blow up your theories around Hindu extermination.

Obviously you did not read post 100, here have a read, bolded section:

Quote Originally Posted by Iqbal'sh View Post
Getting boring now, still no evidence of extermination of the Hindu minorities. Keep on googling son, you never know ........

I quoted a Pakistani source earlier child, with the heading 1,000 minority girls forced in marriage every year.. Whats the matter you cant give me a straight up reply to the injustice that is happening in your country ? .I already said earlier, forced conversion = extermination in my eyes.


I too could start to post every article in relation to ghar wapsi, maybe riots of 2002, Khalistan uprising etc but I'll refrain and instead let your small mind indulge itself.

Khalistan lol even the majority Sikhs now don't support it but nice try was cute of you to bring it up.

Btw did you figure out how many Muslims were left behind in India after 1947? Google will help, your complete ignorance notwithstanding.

I do not care how many stayed and how many left, my point has been proven; Muslim minorities in India increased to the size of your whole Pakistani population, while one section of your minority after partition has increased by a pathetic .5%. If us Indians (hindus) thought like you muslims in Pakistan we probably would only see a .5% increase in the muslim population also. Credit where its due Indian minorities flourished in comparison to the Pakistani ones.


..

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Obviously you did not read post 100, here have a read, bolded section

I do not care how many stayed and how many left, my point has been proven; Muslim minorities in India increased to the size of your whole Pakistani population, while one section of your minority after partition has increased by a pathetic .5%. If us Indians (hindus) thought like you muslims in Pakistan we probably would only see a .5% increase in the muslim population also. Credit where its due Indian minorities flourished in comparison to the Pakistani ones.


..

Response was post 102, but given your deficiencies with numbers I'm not sure you'll be able to find it.

How is your point proven, show me the evidence with population numbers. Prove your assertion that after partition the Muslim population of India from almost nothing has increased to match Pakistan's current population. I'm waiting ..........

 

[justarslan]

 

[justarslan]

From a healthy 14 per cent in 1941 – a figure some analysts say had reached 16 per cent by 1947 – the Hindu population came down to just 1.3 per cent in 1951

Drastic decline since 1941, now lets see what happened here ? Aliens caught them ? or they forgot how to breed ? Or have a guess.....

Khasi, they migrated to Hindustan like my family migrated from Hindustan to Pakistan.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Response was post 102, but given your deficiencies with numbers I'm not sure you'll be able to find it.

How is your point proven, show me the evidence with population numbers. Prove your assertion that after partition the Muslim population of India from almost nothing has increased to match Pakistan's current population. I'm waiting ..........

Read post 100 again, keep reading it a few times, oh while you read it take a break and have a read of the below;

Leave Your Faith, Or Leave Your Country"
--An Article on Horrible Condition of Sindhi Hindus

"“We are not Muslim, we are not Hindu, but first and foremost, we are Sindhi. There is a conspiracy to force Sindhi Hindus to leave Sindh, but we will not allow nefarious elements to succeed,” a political activist was sloganeering in English outside the Hyderabad Press Club.

Like most nationalists, he was hoping his message would be heard not only everywhere in Pakistan but also all across the world.

But the sad reality is, all these protests are of no use; the messages all fruitless. Despite their community's strong resistance, the situation is very much the same as it was yesterday. Hindu girls were converted in the past, are being converted today, and I’m sure, will be converted down to the very last Hindu remaining on the soil of Sindh.

It is true that whenever a Hindu girl in Sindh is kidnapped or converted, a large number of Sindhi Hindus – in the face of fear and hopelessness – are forced to migrate to India.

Also read: Footprints: Hindus in no man's land

After the alleged kidnapping of Anjali Bai Meghwar from Daharki, Kajul Bheel from Matiari district and Karin from Nawabshah (most people not aware of these names), many people including my dear friend Ajeet Kumar are forced to consider the idea of migration.

“As a last resort we have decided to migrate to India," Ajeet told me a few days ago.

"We are completely insecure here. We are looted but our voice is not heard by the people in the saddle, our temples are attacked in broad daylight but no one takes action, our girls are kidnapped and forcibly converted only to hear more empty promises of justice.

"Nothing happened in the last 65 years and we don’t expect any improvement in future. Things will only become wore.”

All the political parties have condemned and protested the forced conversion of 12 year-old Anjali and subsequent marriage to a young man. But while Bilawal Bhutto, the ruling party’s chairman, has taken cognizance of it, most PPP leaders have kept mum as they know there is no way to turn the situation around. Intolerance of faith differentials has gone so far in this country that not only Hindus but Christians, Ahmadis and Shias are equally targeted every now and then.
The situation is chilling.

http://www.quora.com/Living-in-Pakistan/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-a-Pakistani-Hindu

 

[waqar goraya]

Back on the topic....

This is a flawed policy from Mr. Selfie g in his desperation to isolate Pakistan completely.

If Arabs can make relations with Pakistan sour because Pakistan behaved impartially at one point in time in Arabs versus Persians case, then they are not going to make India their strategic partner either who already has a strong business relations with Iran. And if Mr. Selfie thinks that all of a sudden that they can chose Arab camp at the expense of Iran then i think he is becoming over ambitious.

 

[Strike Rate]

Why Narendra Modi’s hardline Pakistan policy is deeply flawed : Hindustan Times

What makes for good television is not always sound policy. Tackling a state with recidivist elements demands a complex response that goes beyond mere posturing. All that the current approach does is generate toxic effects in Indian society


Islamabad learnt a bitter lesson in diplomacy during the dust-up over national security adviser talks with India —that once a side triumphs in the drafting of a text i.e., a joint statement, it can control the narrative about events.

There’s little doubt that from Pakistan’s vantage, the joint statement at Ufa was very badly drafted. It allowed India’s external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj to point to elements in the brief 207-word text which suggest that both sides considered terrorism as a central theme of the NSA talks. Pakistan’s NSA Sartaj Aziz could point to the part that said Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif ‘are prepared to discuss all outstanding issues’ – which has traditionally been a euphemism for Jammu and Kashmir – but it is fairly clear that the Ufa statement, taken together, was loaded in favour of recognizing terrorism as a central to the NSA talks agenda.

Be that as it may be, there is reason to believe this was a pyrrhic victory, where India squandered bigger objectives and incurred bigger costs by getting into an ugly squabble over Kashmiri separatists and the talks agenda. It prompts questions about the way New Delhi handled the situation, it puts paid to well-circulated theories about Modi’s foreign policy, evokes concerns about what this means for the future and raises doubts about the credibility of India’s narrative internationally.

To begin with, many have already asked as to why the agenda was not sorted out by New Delhi well in advance, if terrorism was to be the singular agenda. Swaraj suggested that Pakistan did not respond for 22 days to India’s call on NSA talks.

If that were true, were there no instruments at hand except feeding the media about India’s strategy of sending out a strong message on terror, of handing over a dossiers on militant camps that were reviving, on presenting proof that Dawood Ibrahim lives in Karachi, and about handing an expanding list of Indian fugitives living in Pakistan? Once that public diplomacy agenda of projecting Modi and NSA Ajit Doval as strongmen was on, was there any surprise that Islamabad would trot out a meeting with Kashmiri separatists to burnish its own moral credentials by insisting on the “core issue”? Islamabad was, in any case, still very resentful of the way Modi peremptorily called off foreign secretary talks last year – and so India’s posturing gave Islamabad the excuse to grandstand as well.

And even if Swaraj’s reading of the Ufa statement is warranted, the question to ask is whether India can really expect Pakistan to discuss terrorism and nothing else? Even if Pakistan is a deeply unstable state wracked with internal challenges, and has long pursued wrongheaded policies on India, it still does remain a nation-state that has its own canons of status, dignity and prestige. What is the incentive for Islamabad to participate in a dialogue where the agenda is structured to blame Pakistan, however warranted that blame is? Was not India’s anger about terrorism, the proof thereof and the threats to convey by Doval better relayed in a private setting rather than played out in public leaving both sides little option but to posture? In any case, if India was supposed to have a dual strategy of engaging the civilian government of Nawaz Sharif while isolating the military establishment, how do stringent conditions for talks with a representative of PM Sharif square with such plans?

All told, Modi’s posturing may have been good television that galvanised his base but it is completely out of step with the conventions of transaction between nation-states, however lopsided the balance of power is between two contending parties. If Indian policymakers argue that Pakistan does not deserve such courtesies as it exports terror, then why bother with Ufa in the first place?

Modi’s Pakistan policy seems to stem from the belief that keeping Islamabad on a leash through hardened rhetoric and enforcing a circumscribed dialogue is the way to go. The problem is that it achieves little beyond beefing up his domestic legitimacy. For one, it does not guarantee an end to terror attacks. Clearly India’s threats and a massive retaliation to cross-LoC firing last autumn has not deterred Pakistan from pushing terrorists into Gurdaspur or using artillery against civilians in the Poonch sector of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan has been steadily expanding its nuclear weapons programme and feels able to continue with sub-conventional warfare without too much of a cost. Modi’s coercive tactics have not altered that calculus significantly yet as the increased attacks in J&K suggest. In fact, the principal reason why Pakistan is keen on resuming dialogue with India, is not because it quakes at the neighbour’s military might, but because it sees engagement as a mechanism to contain escalation if a major terrorist strike does happen – a tool India has now deprived itself of.

Defenders of India’s policy may argue that Modi is raising Pakistan’s costs for proxy war through stringent conditionality and threatening ‘hot pursuit’ or implying covert action of its own. But we have just seen that Pakistan is unlikely to agree to pre-conditions since it has a competitive political landscape like any other country. The idea of hot pursuit of terrorists has also not been fully tested yet. Security experts say that aircrafts or commandos can execute an operation against militant camps in Pakistan but argue that returning back to India may not be easy.

To restate, Modi’s hardline approach has not yet achieved any of the outcomes that are in India’s interests. All that this policy has yielded is a lot of anti-Pakistan sentiment, which has no policy utility beyond translating into a subliminal tirade against Indian Muslims on television on a regular basis. In effect, the policy is generating toxic effects in Indian society and on its public sphere rather achieving any strategic objective with Pakistan.

There are at least a couple of other policy implications to consider. The Modi government may well prefer not to deal with Pakistan but the
current approach will have seriously undermined networks that will be handy for managing the next India-Pakistan crisis. If a non-state actor like the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, decides to drive a wedge between the two countries — which is not inconceivable for figures with apocalyptic worldviews — it is not clear who Ajit Doval will lean on to prevent an escalation, especially when he is seen as a mastermind of the current strategy, a champion of hot pursuit of militants into Pakistan and a proponent of India punching well above its weight.

In the aftermath of the next major terrorist strike, we will then have to rely on the Americans and the international community to defuse tensions, who will no doubt point out privately that India initiated this round of recriminations starting with the calling off of foreign secretary talks last August. In the meanwhile, if the Modi government is seen as egging on its hypernationalist media and embarrassing Pakistan’s civilian government which desired talks, then the international community’s indignation with the low-level terrorist violence that Pakistan sustains in India will wear thin.

This is not an argument for appeasement. Pakistan has, for sure, powerful actors who are implacably committed to destabilising India. There are, however, no military answers to the problem of terrorism. India would have tried them long ago if there were. India’s policy must instead flow from a recognition that Pakistan is a nation of 182 million with a complex set of interests and motivations, both at the elite and popular plane. India needs to have leverage all across Pakistani society to achieve its purposes, which for the moment includes rollback of terror and preventing escalation of conflict. The current policy is instead arraying all of Pakistan, including liberal elements of its civil society, against India, while the latter is also manufacturing animosity towards the neighbour. Effecting a social breach within and between both nations just to prove a point to a section of the Pakistan elite is neither sensible nor strategic. It is a dangerous place to be.



http://www.hindustantimes.com/analy...policy-is-deeply-flawed/article1-1383696.aspx

 

[#GreenRoars]

Bitter, but very true " In the aftermath of the next major terrorist strike, we will then have to rely on the Americans and the international community to defuse tensions, who will no doubt point out privately that India initiated this round of recriminations starting with the calling off of foreign secretary talks last August. "

 

[Slog]

Modi Modi Modi

dimaagh kharaab kardiya hai iss Modi ke naam ne

 

[Thomaskutty]

To restate, Modi’s hardline approach has not yet achieved any of the outcomes that are in India’s interests. All that this policy has yielded is a lot of anti-Pakistan sentiment, which has no policy utility beyond translating into a subliminal tirade against Indian Muslims on television on a regular basis. In effect, the policy is generating toxic effects in Indian society and on its public sphere rather achieving any strategic objective with Pakistan.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analy...policy-is-deeply-flawed/article1-1383696.aspx

How does bashing Pakistan translate into a rant against Indian muslims ? What a stupid article.It exposes the author's own prejudices

 

[Strike Rate]

Modi Modi Modi

dimaagh kharaab kardiya hai iss Modi ke naam ne

Agree

 

[Rishikesh]

Agree

Lol don't act innocent, This is your second thread on same subject right ? people like you and modi's bakhts are giving unnecessary publicity to him . if you are really interested in balanced discussion post articles from Pakistan which blames Nawaz.

 

[Runner Up]

Ab Ki Baar Modi Sarkaar... Phir sab barbaad......

 

[MRSN]

This guy has used his cards way too early.

Indian government has no credibility left whatsoever. It's clear now that theh are never trusted again. Pakistan government should stop thinking about any dialogue with India until they show their seriousness and want to talk about issues other than terrorism as well. Otherwise it will be just a waste of time.

 

[Strike Rate]

Lol don't act innocent, This is your second thread on same subject right ? people like you and modi's bakhts are giving unnecessary publicity to him . if you are really interested in balanced discussion post articles from Pakistan which blames Nawaz.

What are you talking about? I just shared a news from Hindsutan Times that i found interesting did i created this news? or did i created the threads on how Modi is getting the rockstar reception all over the world?

 

[MRSN]

I liked Congress's policy on Pakistan better. They hardly ever gave Pakistan any importance, but Modi seems obsessed.

Lol oh really? Didn't our foreign minister had a trip to India where India promised lots of things but only to run away later as they usually do..

 

[Strike Rate]

Lol don't act innocent, This is your second thread on same subject right ? people like you and modi's bakhts are giving unnecessary publicity to him . if you are really interested in balanced discussion post articles from Pakistan which blames Nawaz.

and FYI i hate Nawaz and his habit of running goverment like a family business so don't even think about me as a Nawaz fan or follower. You can find many threads/posts here by me criticizing Nawaz and his party PMLN just do a search.

 

[the Great Khan]

very interesting but deeply flawed article. It actually demonstrates the failure of India's policy vis a vis Pakistan from both the left and the right. The article keeps talking about Pakistans underlying support for terror in india. Now could some Indian posters post all the figures and number of terrorist attacks since 2008 that have been staged by Pakistan or from non state actors in pakistan. Could you also state the number of dead Indians via terrorist attacks since 2008. And then simply compare the numbers with those in Pakistan. The comparison would be beyond laughable I suspect.

The problem is pretty simple. Pakistan is a state born in an environment of insecurity, betrayed from day one, and struggling from that day to this day to ensure it is secure. That is the bottom line. If India is serious about dialogue and reconciliation then it needs to change its methodology. The first thing that needs to be done is to reassure Pakistan of its security. Now India posters may put there arms up and scream terrorism etc, but just think logically. India is a bigger country with a bigger army economy manpower, etc. Why would a country this big and a "future power" not take the pragmatic step and reassure Pakistan about its own security through concrete measures? For example what is the harm in de-escalating military numbers along the eastern border and in kashmir? whats wrong with looking at a true political solution to the kashmir issue? If India were to make such moves there is already a under swell of public opinion in Pakistan that would jump at the chance of some aman ki asha. Pakistanis are generally a pretty chilled out bunch and are tired of all the jung stuff. Everyone just wants to get on with things. Most pakistanis dont care about being a super power, they just want to concentrate on putting food on the table and being economically secure.

So why doesnt India simply be the big man and say "ok fine, lets talk about everything".WHy? Its time for it to bury the small minded mentality and start thinking big. A few centuries ago the sub continent was one of the richest places on the planet. There was enough for everyone, there still is. Why not think about the bigger picture??

 

[the Great Khan]

Lol don't act innocent, This is your second thread on same subject right ? people like you and modi's bakhts are giving unnecessary publicity to him . if you are really interested in balanced discussion post articles from Pakistan which blames Nawaz.

you proceed from teh premise that we are like you. As in we defend our "leader" like he is our guru or something. On the contrary Pakistan is a highly politicies society that is sophisticated in the way it percieves its political leadership. Most paksitanis are cynical and view politicians in a very negative way and expect something from them. Unlike Indians who seem to begin hero worshiping before a hero has emerged!!

 

[Thomaskutty]

The problem is pretty simple. Pakistan is a state born in an environment of insecurity, betrayed from day one, and struggling from that day to this day to ensure it is secure. That is the bottom line. If India is serious about dialogue and reconciliation then it needs to change its methodology. The first thing that needs to be done is to reassure Pakistan of its security

Why should pakistan feel insecure - when has India ever breached its borders in 70 years of existence ? Please do tell.
If you recollect , all four wars were initiated by Pakistan.The first step to reconciliation is to stop believing in revisionist history that Pakistan is completely steeped in - rev history that teaches you India is out to get you.