The Russian invasion of Ukraine

[James]

If the attack on Polish territory is true then this has just majorly escalated.

Might have been an accident.

 

[sweep_shot]

Reading reports it looks like those missiles were first damaged/attacked by Ukraine then strayed into Polish areas.

Whatever Russian planning has been even they're not this stupid to attack a NATO state. Right now, aside from hitting Ukraine daily, they gain nothing by more escalation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-63593855

Imo this seems like a desperate attempt by Ukrainians to get others involved. Even they cannot confirm anything regarding the Polish village.

It has been stated by Russia many Poles are fighting with the Nazis of Ukraine, so this could be an attack on their hiding areas inside Poland, which Russia is fully entitled to target.

Russia has no incentive to attack Poland.

It seems like a Ukrainian false flag attack or a fake news.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Russia has no incentive to attack Poland.

It seems like a Ukrainian false flag attack or a fake news.

Idiotic Poles have been fighting alongside Ukrainian Nazis, so Russia does have a legitimate right to attack any bases within their borders.

I dont think this is a false flag because everyone knows Nato will not go to war with Russia.

Reason is ALMOST ALL Brits, French, Spanish, Italians, Dutch and others do not want a WORLD WAR with Russia for the sake of these Ukranians. Any attempt by Nato to start such a war will see European leaders houses attacked, riots in streets and a breakdown of society.

Europeans have had enough of this proxy war while they suffer. Italians no longer will provide weapons and many others are feeling the same.

Sadly too many have been fooled by the Yanks but are waking up now.

You have some on here suggesting Russia has only 150 precision missiles, the day after Russia has used double this ..lol

Europe must tell Yanks this is enough, demand a peace deal. Russia has to take the territory they control after the River and move on.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Might have been an accident.

It doesn't really matter.

NATO didn't help Ukraine because it wasn't a member.

NATO can't take two Polish deaths lightly by calling it an accident.

Otherwise it will confirm the belief of many that NATO is a paper tiger that is only good for bombing shepherds in deserts.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It doesn't really matter.

NATO didn't help Ukraine because it wasn't a member.

NATO can't take two Polish deaths lightly by calling it an accident.

Otherwise it will confirm the belief of many that NATO is a paper tiger that is only good for bombing shepherds in deserts.

Are you really suggesting we are about to see WW3?

NATO is only interested in a proxy war because the citizens dont give a hoot about Ukraine, they want to enjoy Xmas , get drunk and go skiing.

 

[Junaids]

Idiotic Poles have been fighting alongside Ukrainian Nazis, so Russia does have a legitimate right to attack any bases within their borders.

I dont think this is a false flag because everyone knows Nato will not go to war with Russia.

Reason is ALMOST ALL Brits, French, Spanish, Italians, Dutch and others do not want a WORLD WAR with Russia for the sake of these Ukranians. Any attempt by Nato to start such a war will see European leaders houses attacked, riots in streets and a breakdown of society.

Europeans have had enough of this proxy war while they suffer. Italians no longer will provide weapons and many others are feeling the same.

Sadly too many have been fooled by the Yanks but are waking up now.

You have some on here suggesting Russia has only 150 precision missiles, the day after Russia has used double this ..lol

Europe must tell Yanks this is enough, demand a peace deal. Russia has to take the territory they control after the River and move on.

It’s clear that this attack on Polish soil is the consequence of Russia having run out of precision weapons.

The missile is an S-300 surface-to-air missile.

We know that Russia has been shooting these at Lviv and other targets because they have run so low on actual surface-to-surface missiles.

What we don’t know is whether (probably 95% likely) this is a Russian S-300 aimed at Lviv which missed and landed in Poland. Or whether it is a Ukrainian S-300 which tried to shoot down a Russian S-300 (only 5% likely because Ukraine defends its cities with more advanced western missile systems.).

If it is concluded that it is a Russian missile, the war will enter a new phase, and Poland may well invoke NATO article 5 and launch attacks on the stolen German territory of Koenigsberg, which is occupied by Russia as Kaliningrad and lies right next to Poland. It’s a sitting duck, especially as its land forces have been recorded to have already been wiped out in Ukraine.

Remember, Poland does not have nuclear weapons but is protected by those of the USA, UK and France. But its Air Force would have total superiority over Russia, as would its Army.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It’s clear that this attack on Polish soil is the consequence of Russia having run out of precision weapons.

The missile is an S-300 surface-to-air missile.

We know that Russia has been shooting these at Lviv and other targets because they have run so low on actual surface-to-surface missiles.

What we don’t know is whether (probably 95% likely) this is a Russian S-300 aimed at Lviv which missed and landed in Poland. Or whether it is a Ukrainian S-300 which tried to shoot down a Russian S-300 (only 5% likely because Ukraine defends its cities with more advanced western missile systems.).

If it is concluded that it is a Russian missile, the war will enter a new phase, and Poland may well invoke NATO article 5 and launch attacks on the stolen German territory of Koenigsberg, which is occupied by Russia as Kaliningrad and lies right next to Poland. It’s a sitting duck, especially as its land forces have been recorded to have already been wiped out in Ukraine.

Remember, Poland does not have nuclear weapons but is protected by those of the USA, UK and France. But its Air Force would have total superiority over Russia, as would its Army.

Firstly no real evidence has come to light what type of missile hit Poland. You really need to do your research, Ukraine also has S-300 batteries but you didnt know this.

Poland harbours nuclear weapons of Nato. But again you didnt know this .

But be clear now...

Do you NOW WANT Nato to go to WAR with Russia? Yes or No?

If Yes, have you got your tin hat ready? Surely as a strong supporter of Ukraine you are ready to die for them too?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Are you really suggesting we are about to see WW3?

NATO is only interested in a proxy war because the citizens dont give a hoot about Ukraine, they want to enjoy Xmas , get drunk and go skiing.

If the attacks on Poland are confirmed and NATO don't engage Russia directly then why would any new country decide to join?


This is the closest we have ever been to WW3.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If the attacks on Poland are confirmed and NATO don't engage Russia directly then why would any new country decide to join?


This is the closest we have ever been to WW3.

Thanks, so you are suggesting Nato will start WW3 now. I dont believe this is the case, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

You mean a Nuclear War as many believe WW3 has been ongoing for over a decade now.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Thanks, so you are suggesting Nato will start WW3 now. I dont believe this is the case, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

You mean a Nuclear War as many believe WW3 has been ongoing for over a decade now.

If it is true, then its Russia and not NATO who have raised the stakes to a point where all out war seems like the only outcome.

NATO is obliged to defend a member state.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If it is true, then its Russia and not NATO who have raised the stakes to a point where all out war seems like the only outcome.

NATO is obliged to defend a member state.

Dont fall for this obliged nonsense lol.

NATO's aims was to bleed Russia in a proxy war, they never wanted a full out war with Russia because Russia will not go down without destroying Europe and US along the way.

They will say its an accident and move on to watching Matt Hancock in the Jungle having a shower.

 

[Technics 1210]

West up to its old tricks again, false flags, just to initiate a full on war!

 

[KingKhanWC]

West up to its old tricks again, false flags, just to initiate a full on war!

My personal view its the Polish and Ukrainian Nazis who are behind this. Ukraine was getting battered worse than a Cod at Ali's Fish Bar, so they decided to play this trick so Russia stops but it was too late.

Nothing will come of it, Nato will say it was an error and go back to polishing Bidens nuclear football.

 

[Junaids]

If anybody is wondering why this is vastly more likely to be an incoming Russian missile which missed Lviv and hit Poland rather than a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile which landed in Poland.

1. Lviv is defended mainly by western Surface-to-air defences, not Soviet Era ones.

2. The trajectory causing it to land in Poland suggests that it was fired from southeast of Lviv, like every previous Russian missile attack on Lviv.

3. Ukrainian surface-to-air defences on the outskirts of Lviv would clearly be shooting surface-to-air missiles in a southeasterly direction against incoming Russian missiles. So whether they hit or miss, they aren’t going to land to the northwest in Poland.

Russia has been playing Russian Roulette by using surface-to-air missiles against Ukrainian land targets due to their shortage of precision cruise missiles.

It’s time for Russia to pay now. I would support the setting up of a No Fly Zone for all Russian aircraft and missiles over the whole of Ukraine, including all of Crimea and Donbas. Anything Russian that takes to the skies should be shot down, and the facility from which it took off should be destroyed.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If anybody is wondering why this is vastly more likely to be an incoming Russian missile which missed Lviv and hit Poland rather than a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile which landed in Poland.

1. Lviv is defended mainly by western Surface-to-air defences, not Soviet Era ones.

2. The trajectory causing it to land in Poland suggests that it was fired from southeast of Lviv, like every previous Russian missile attack on Lviv.

3. Ukrainian surface-to-air defences on the outskirts of Lviv would clearly be shooting surface-to-air missiles in a southeasterly direction against incoming Russian missiles. So whether they hit or miss, they aren’t going to land to the northwest in Poland.

Russia has been playing Russian Roulette by using surface-to-air missiles against Ukrainian land targets due to their shortage of precision cruise missiles.

It’s time for Russia to pay now. I would support the setting up of a No Fly Zone for all Russian aircraft and missiles over the whole of Ukraine, including all of Crimea and Donbas. Anything Russian that takes to the skies should be shot down, and the facility from which it took off should be destroyed.

Please provide your source for these claims.

Its time for Russia to pay with British, Europeans and the planets lives? Why should the world be ruined for Ukraine and will you be helping out?

 

[Yossarian]

Ukraine uses S-300's to try and shoot down Russian cruise missiles.
It's most likely one of these that has malfunctioned. ie It was the Ukrainians who fired the missile. Otherwise, why would the Russians fire a missile at a farm?

 

[Junaids]

Ukraine uses S-300's to try and shoot down Russian cruise missiles.
It's most likely one of these that has malfunctioned. ie It was the Ukrainians who fired the missile. Otherwise, why would the Russians fire a missile at a farm?

Which is more likely:

1. Ukraine fired a missile backwards, flying over a large city, landing in Poland. And nobody noticed.

2. Russia fired a non-precision missile towards Lviv, and it carried on beyond where it was aimed and landed in Poland.

What is more likely: flying onwards in a straight line or flying backwards over a large city in daylight without anybody noticing?

 

[Technics 1210]

Clearly some people have no idea of the trajectory of a malfunction rocket/missile engine.

Just look at videos of failed rocket launches.

Malfunctioning rockets/missiles NEVER travel in a straight line.

This Is physics 101.

 

[Yossarian]

Which is more likely:

1. Ukraine fired a missile backwards, flying over a large city, landing in Poland. And nobody noticed.

2. Russia fired a non-precision missile towards Lviv, and it carried on beyond where it was aimed and landed in Poland.

What is more likely: flying onwards in a straight line or flying backwards over a large city in daylight without anybody noticing?

As far as I'm concerned, the UK should not even be backing Ukraine.

Other than those who are brainwashed into believing everything Ukraine says, prior to the Russian invasion, Ukraine was no angel. Nato has been trying to woo, and succeeding, for Soviet Union countries to join Nato. It had been doing the same regards Ukraine. And all this ** about helping the 'poor Ukrainians is just propaganda in order to cover that fact.

As for your scenario, wait until the full facts come out. Even some Western analysts are saying it was more likely an anti-missile missile, fired by the Ukrainians, malfunctioned.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Currently being described as a Russian made missile rather than a Russian missile.

 

[Yossarian]

Currently being described as a Russian made missile rather than a Russian missile.

Because the S-300's used by Ukraine were made in Russia, just like most of Ukraine's tanks, jet fighters and other military hardware.

 

[Junaids]

Clearly some people have no idea of the trajectory of a malfunction rocket/missile engine.

Just look at videos of failed rocket launches.

Malfunctioning rockets/missiles NEVER travel in a straight line.

This Is physics 101.

Who said it was malfunctioning?

It is a surface-to-air missile being misused by Russia against land targets because they have run out of surface-to-surface missiles.

That means by definition that it is being used at double its deigned range - that’s simple geometry and physics - and without precision guidance.

 

[Junaids]

Ukraine uses S-300's to try and shoot down Russian cruise missiles.
It's most likely one of these that has malfunctioned. ie It was the Ukrainians who fired the missile. Otherwise, why would the Russians fire a missile at a farm?

Ukraine mainly uses western anti-aircraft systems to protect major cities like Lviv.

The Russians have run out of cruise missiles, and instead what are they lobbing in the vague direction of their intended targets? S-300 missiles!

 

[Junaids]

Ukraine uses S-300's to try and shoot down Russian cruise missiles.
It's most likely one of these that has malfunctioned. ie It was the Ukrainians who fired the missile. Otherwise, why would the Russians fire a missile at a farm?

That would still be Russia’s fault.

If you try to shoot someone who has a loaded weapon pointed at you, and miss, and kill someone standing behind him, it is the person who started it who gets charged with homicide, not the person trying to defend themselves.

Even if it was a Ukrainian missile attempting to shoot down an incoming Russian attack, that is still legally Russia’s fault and responsibility under international law.

 

[bones]

Need to wait for more information but what we will get is the polluted version of the truth based on what each side wants the outcome to be.

 

[Pakpak]

Biden says unlikely Poland missile fired by Russians.

 

[Technics 1210]

The Associated Press news agency is quoting three US officials as saying a preliminary assessment suggests the missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian missile.

The officials, who are not authorised to discuss the matter publicly, spoke to AP on the condition of anonymity.

Earlier on Tuesday President Biden said it was "unlikely" the missile that hit Poland was fired from Russia.

The missile landed in the village of Przedwodow near the border with Ukraine, killing two people.

 

[Robert]

Might have been an accident.

Aye. Most likely another cocq-up.

Still, a very disturbing development. I don’t know how this will end, short of Putin dying in office like Stalin, or being deposed in a coup.

 

[MenInG]

The Associated Press news agency is quoting three US officials as saying a preliminary assessment suggests the missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian missile.

The officials, who are not authorised to discuss the matter publicly, spoke to AP on the condition of anonymity.

Earlier on Tuesday President Biden said it was "unlikely" the missile that hit Poland was fired from Russia.

The missile landed in the village of Przedwodow near the border with Ukraine, killing two people.

Missile that landed in Poland was fired by Ukraine - report

The Associated Press news agency is quoting three US officials as saying a preliminary assessment suggests the missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian missile.

The officials, who are not authorised to discuss the matter publicly, spoke to AP on the condition of anonymity.

Earlier on Tuesday President Biden said it was "unlikely" the missile that hit Poland was fired from Russia.

The missile landed in the village of Przedwodow near the border with Ukraine, killing two people.

 

[Yossarian]

Which is more likely:

1. Ukraine fired a missile backwards, flying over a large city, landing in Poland. And nobody noticed.

2. Russia fired a non-precision missile towards Lviv, and it carried on beyond where it was aimed and landed in Poland.

What is more likely: flying onwards in a straight line or flying backwards over a large city in daylight without anybody noticing?

Missile that landed in Poland was fired by Ukraine - report

The Associated Press news agency is quoting three US officials as saying a preliminary assessment suggests the missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian missile.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-63593855

Enough said

 

[Junaids]

Biden says unlikely Poland missile fired by Russians.

Not exactly.

He said it was unlikely to have been fired from Russia.

That’s not the same thing.

 

[Junaids]

If the attacks on Poland are confirmed and NATO don't engage Russia directly then why would any new country decide to join?


This is the closest we have ever been to WW3.

A war against Russia is not the same as a world war.

It is a war against a second-rate regional power which has nuclear weapons - just like Apartheid South Africa. That didn’t stop Cuba from beating Apartheid South Africa in Angola and Namibia.

A World War would be if India or China joined in against the USA and UK. And that’s not going to happen.

 

[gazza619]

Gosh i was is Poland 2 weeks ago on a work project.

 

[Junaids]

Very considered and measured response from Poland and NATO.

 

[MenInG]

The missile blast that killed two people appears to be an "unfortunate accident" and not an "intentional attack", Poland's president has said.

Andrzej Duda tweeted that officials had "no proof at the moment that it was a missile fired by the Russian side".

He added: "There are many indications that it was an air defence missile, which unfortunately fell on Polish territory."

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said in a statement to media: "Yesterday's explosion took place as Russia launched a massive wave of rocket attacks across Ukraine.

NATO says Russia 'bears ultimate responsibility' - Ukraine war latest

"An investigation into this incident is ongoing, and we need to await its outcome.

"But we have no indication this was the result of a deliberate attack and we have no indication Russia is preparing offensive military actions against NATO.

"Our preliminary analysis suggests that the incident was likely caused by Ukrainian air defence missile fired to defend Ukrainian territory against Russia cruise missile attacks.

"But let me be clear - this is not Ukraine's fault. Russia bears ultimate responsibility as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine."

The preliminary findings came after Joe Biden and other western backers of Ukraine had thrown their weight behind the investigation, amid repeated assertions from Russia that it did not fire the missile.

The US President cast doubt on previous claims the missile, which hit a grain silo in Przewodow, was fired by Moscow.

"There is preliminary information that contests that.

"I don't want to say that until we completely investigate it, but it is unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia, but we'll see."

Three US officials said preliminary assessments suggested it was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian one.

Ukraine maintains stocks of Soviet and Russian-made weaponry, including air-defence missiles, and has also seized many more Russian weapons while beating back the Kremlin's forces.

Ukrainian air defences worked furiously against the Russian assault on power generation and transmission facilities, including in Ukraine's western region that borders Poland.

Ukraine's military said 77 of more than 90 missiles fired were brought down, along with 11 drones.

Russia has insisted it did not fire the missile.

A spokesman for the defence ministry told Russia's state-owned RIA news agency that its strikes on 15 November were no closer than 22 miles (35km) from the Polish border.

They claimed that images of the site showed the wreckage to be that of a Ukrainian S-300 missile.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said damage from Tuesday's missile attacks was extensive and large areas were plunged into darkness.

He said about 10 million people lost power but tweeted overnight that eight million had been reconnected.

Previous Russian strikes had already destroyed an estimated 40% of the country's energy infrastructure.

SKY

 

[Robert]

If the attacks on Poland are confirmed and NATO don't engage Russia directly then why would any new country decide to join?


This is the closest we have ever been to WW3.

Not as close as 1963. The RAF Vulcans were nuked-up and running their engines on two-minute readiness then.

NATO will only declare Article 5 in response to a major attack on a member state. Below this level are less severe options, such as expelling diplomats as happened after the Skripal attack.

 

[Technics 1210]

I feel there is a sense of sadness from NATO apologists.

On one hand, they were hoping the Russians were responsible for the missile landing in Poland.

On the other hand, all news sources, including MSM, Amreekan military personal and government officials have confirmed that Russia was not responsible for the strike in Poland.

While we are told it was an accident by the Ukrainians, the fact remains, if Russia was responsible for the strike in Poland, then NATO is simply not brave enough to engage in a direct war with Russia and will remain in a proxy war anyway.

Anyone who thinks Russia is not winning this war, really needs a reality check.

Also by my count, and the claims made by NATO apologists in this thread, Russia is at MINUS 450 Missiles.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Very considered and measured response from Poland and NATO.

Not sure what else respond they could make?

I wrote immediately it was the Ukrainians but many wanted it to be the Russians, so Nato goes to war. This is very sad , the seriousness of such actions arent understood by those supporting it.

It was also take away the news of Russia destroying many facilities in Ukraine, in one of the biggest attacks since this conflict began.

In 2-3 weeks you will see imo over 500,000 Russian soldiers with their equipment coming to end this war once and for all by destroying Ukraine as a viable state. Nato know this and wont intefere.

Very sad state of affairs esp for the Ukrainian people.

 

[James]

Might have been an accident.

This is what I suspected from the start.

 

[James]

<b>Fears of war spillover ease after NATO says missile on Poland was Ukrainian stray
</b>
WARSAW/PRZEWODOW, Poland/BRUSSELS, Nov 16 (Reuters) -

A missile that crashed inside Poland was probably a stray fired by Ukraine's air defences and not a Russian strike, Poland and military alliance NATO said on Wednesday, easing international fears that the war could spill across the border.

Nevertheless, NATO's chief said that Moscow, not Kyiv, was still to blame for starting the war in the first place with its February invasion and launching scores of missiles on Tuesday that triggered Ukrainian defences.

"This is not Ukraine's fault. Russia bears ultimate responsibility as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters in Brussels.

NATO ambassadors held emergency talks to respond to Tuesday's blast that killed two people at a grain facility in Poland near the Ukrainian border, the war's first deadly extension into the territory of the Western alliance.

"From the information that we and our allies have, it was an S-300 rocket made in the Soviet Union, an old rocket and there is no evidence that it was launched by the Russian side," Polish President Andrzej Duda said. "It is highly probable that it was fired by Ukrainian anti-aircraft defence."

Stoltenberg also said it was likely to have been a Ukrainian air defence missile. Earlier, U.S. President Joe Biden had said the trajectories suggested the missile was unlikely to have been unleashed from Russia.

Full: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hails-chinas-opposition-nuclear-threats-2022-11-15/

 

[JaDed]

Shows NATO is more honest wd to them ,Russia should raise the white flag and be done with it before the economy tanks in future.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Which is your government? US?They actually were happy India was buying oil from Russia if they weren’t the prices of oil would had sky rocketed right now and inflation even worse.

Yes, and we can have our cake and eat it too. Have India reduce the stress on the oil supply from the usual exporters to the United States, though US imports of oil are steadily reducing; and then penalize India for being so cozy with a totalitarian state.

India's economy is very much a service economy with the United States being the largest purchaser of the services not used locally. Thus, this whole bullshyt artist act from the foreign minister deserves a response.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Shows NATO is more honest wd to them ,Russia should raise the white flag and be done with it before the economy tanks in future.

true. but they are not a rational actor.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Aye. Most likely another cocq-up.

Still, a very disturbing development. I don’t know how this will end, short of Putin dying in office like Stalin, or being deposed in a coup.

a realignment of Xi Jinping's interest - if he were to get off his Taiwan train and maybe hit pause on his imperial dreams for say a few years, and then normalize trade relationship with the united states, Russia will find themselves with one only two allies: Iran and Belarus. That is hardly something to be inspired by, and soon a withdrawal from the east could be ushered under the guise of russia's own 'mission accomplished'.

will russia withdraw from crimea? now that is the question. If they were to, that would be an indication of a total breakdown. I dont expect them to, and it would be interesting to see if Ukraine pushes the initiative. I dont see the United States supporting that endeavor, but one never knows, if this war last another year or so, and we are into the next election cycle, Biden could be riding high on finishing the job Ronald Reagan did not complete.

 

[bones]

a realignment of Xi Jinping's interest - if he were to get off his Taiwan train.

I dont see the United States supporting that endeavor, but one never knows, if this war last another year or so, and we are into the next election cycle, Biden could be riding high on finishing the job Ronald Reagan did not complete.

You think China will let the Taiwan issue slide? Are you serious? Have their actions and statements ever since Pelosi visiting not been clear enough?

The Americans won't support the endeavour because their economy is in recession and sooner or later they will run out of money to keep Ukraine afloat.

People don't understand, Ukraine would collapse instantly once nato stops supplying weapons and money to them. Who is going to rebuild what is left of Ukraine?

 

[Robert]

a realignment of Xi Jinping's interest - if he were to get off his Taiwan train and maybe hit pause on his imperial dreams for say a few years, and then normalize trade relationship with the united states, Russia will find themselves with one only two allies: Iran and Belarus. That is hardly something to be inspired by, and soon a withdrawal from the east could be ushered under the guise of russia's own 'mission accomplished'.

will russia withdraw from crimea? now that is the question. If they were to, that would be an indication of a total breakdown. I dont expect them to, and it would be interesting to see if Ukraine pushes the initiative. I dont see the United States supporting that endeavor, but one never knows, if this war last another year or so, and we are into the next election cycle, Biden could be riding high on finishing the job Ronald Reagan did not complete.

I don’t think Ukraine has the capability to push Russia back any further. The Dnieper is a defensive barrier. It will take a change of leadership in the Kremlin. I’m reading of a sort of slo-mo coup as army leaders refuse or delay following orders.

 

[cpleigh]

I don’t think Ukraine has the capability to push Russia back any further. The Dnieper is a defensive barrier. It will take a change of leadership in the Kremlin. I’m reading of a sort of slo-mo coup as army leaders refuse or delay following orders.

Theyve already crossed the Dnieper. They are hitting Crimea now... It will be the same as Kherson. They'll hit supply lines until int breaks

 

[bones]

Ukraine are still denying the missile that landed in Poland is their's. Their foreign minister and Zelensky himself continue to spew this lie when the rest of the world knows it is a Ukrainian launched S-300.

So is this a case of malfunction or an attempt at escalating via a false flag. I am not going to speculate one way or the other, but one thing is for sure the lies keep coming from the Ukranian leadership and the MSM continues to ignore the lies.

 

[in_cutter]

The rat Zelensky tried his best to escalate the war…luckily Poland is wise enough. Zelensky should stick to posing for magazines.

 

[in_cutter]

If anybody is wondering why this is vastly more likely to be an incoming Russian missile which missed Lviv and hit Poland rather than a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile which landed in Poland.

1. Lviv is defended mainly by western Surface-to-air defences, not Soviet Era ones.

2. The trajectory causing it to land in Poland suggests that it was fired from southeast of Lviv, like every previous Russian missile attack on Lviv.

3. Ukrainian surface-to-air defences on the outskirts of Lviv would clearly be shooting surface-to-air missiles in a southeasterly direction against incoming Russian missiles. So whether they hit or miss, they aren’t going to land to the northwest in Poland.

Russia has been playing Russian Roulette by using surface-to-air missiles against Ukrainian land targets due to their shortage of precision cruise missiles.

It’s time for Russia to pay now. I would support the setting up of a No Fly Zone for all Russian aircraft and missiles over the whole of Ukraine, including all of Crimea and Donbas. Anything Russian that takes to the skies should be shot down, and the facility from which it took off should be destroyed.

Okay, Sherlock.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

a realignment of Xi Jinping's interest - if he were to get off his Taiwan train and maybe hit pause on his imperial dreams for say a few years, and then normalize trade relationship with the united states, Russia will find themselves with one only two allies: Iran and Belarus. That is hardly something to be inspired by, and soon a withdrawal from the east could be ushered under the guise of russia's own 'mission accomplished'.

thats quite a big IF.

 

[Technics 1210]

UK defence spending frozen at 2% as per autumn statement.

No increase in defence budget!

UK should send blankets, not bombs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

a realignment of Xi Jinping's interest - if he were to get off his Taiwan train and maybe hit pause on his imperial dreams for say a few years, and then normalize trade relationship with the united states, Russia will find themselves with one only two allies: Iran and Belarus. That is hardly something to be inspired by, and soon a withdrawal from the east could be ushered under the guise of russia's own 'mission accomplished'.

will russia withdraw from crimea? now that is the question. If they were to, that would be an indication of a total breakdown. I dont expect them to, and it would be interesting to see if Ukraine pushes the initiative. I dont see the United States supporting that endeavor, but one never knows, if this war last another year or so, and we are into the next election cycle, Biden could be riding high on finishing the job Ronald Reagan did not complete.

Might have been plausible if the western alliance hadn't been simultaneously ramping up the war rhetoric against China and Iran in the same time period. Even without anyone else on board, you would imagine there's at least three major nations who will be deeply suspicious of any US led interventions. Even friend of the West India has recently reaffirmed their long term loyalty to proven friends Russia.

I can only imagine the US is deeply worried that if they don't strike competitors now, a decade down the line it might be too late. Once you have ruled the roost it must be hard to tolerate any challenge to the top seat.

 

[JaDed]

Yes, and we can have our cake and eat it too. Have India reduce the stress on the oil supply from the usual exporters to the United States, though US imports of oil are steadily reducing; and then penalize India for being so cozy with a totalitarian state.

India's economy is very much a service economy with the United States being the largest purchaser of the services not used locally. Thus, this whole bullshyt artist act from the foreign minister deserves a response.

You can try lol..

 

[ex-q-zit]

Ukraine war: Joe Biden disputes Volodymyr Zelenskyy's claim the missile that landed in Poland was not Ukrainian

US President Joe Biden has disputed Volodymyr Zelenskyy's assertions that a missile that landed in Poland and killed two people was not of Ukrainian origin.

Ukraine's president said on Wednesday he had "no doubt" the missile "was not Ukrainian" and called for his officials to have access to the site of the blast.

Ukraine war latest: CIA in talks over 'nuclear threat'

Mr Biden has said the trajectory suggested the missile was unlikely to have come from Russia and, when asked on Thursday about Mr Zelenskyy's comments on the issue, he told reporters: "That's not the evidence."

The missile hit a grain silo on a farm in Przewodow - around four miles from Poland's border with Ukraine.

The blast sparked an international outcry amid the possibility it represented a Russian assault on NATO territory, after the Polish ministry of foreign affairs described the missile as "Russian-made".

However, Moscow insists it did not fire the missile, with Russia's defence ministry denying Russian involvement, saying: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."

The missile hit a grain silo on a farm in Przewodow - around four miles from Poland's border with Ukraine.

The blast sparked an international outcry amid the possibility it represented a Russian assault on NATO territory, after the Polish ministry of foreign affairs described the missile as "Russian-made".

However, Moscow insists it did not fire the missile, with Russia's defence ministry denying Russian involvement, saying: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."

This is not Ukraine's fault'

But Polish President Andrzej Duda has said his country is "very likely" to instead invoke Article 4, which allows a member country to raise a security issue and have it discussed.

"From the information that we and our allies have, it was an S-300 rocket made in the Soviet Union, an old rocket and there is no evidence that it was launched by the Russian side," he said.

"It is highly probable that it was fired by Ukrainian anti-aircraft defence to protect Ukrainian territory."

NATO ambassadors have held emergency talks in response to the war's first deadly extension into the territory of the Western alliance.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has also spoken about Tuesday's incident and said whatever the outcome of the investigation into the blast, Russia "bears ultimate responsibility as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine".

"This is not Ukraine's fault," he said.

SKY

 

[sweep_shot]

Ukraine war: Joe Biden disputes Volodymyr Zelenskyy's claim the missile that landed in Poland was not Ukrainian

US President Joe Biden has disputed Volodymyr Zelenskyy's assertions that a missile that landed in Poland and killed two people was not of Ukrainian origin.

Ukraine's president said on Wednesday he had "no doubt" the missile "was not Ukrainian" and called for his officials to have access to the site of the blast.

Ukraine war latest: CIA in talks over 'nuclear threat'

Mr Biden has said the trajectory suggested the missile was unlikely to have come from Russia and, when asked on Thursday about Mr Zelenskyy's comments on the issue, he told reporters: "That's not the evidence."

The missile hit a grain silo on a farm in Przewodow - around four miles from Poland's border with Ukraine.

The blast sparked an international outcry amid the possibility it represented a Russian assault on NATO territory, after the Polish ministry of foreign affairs described the missile as "Russian-made".

However, Moscow insists it did not fire the missile, with Russia's defence ministry denying Russian involvement, saying: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."

The missile hit a grain silo on a farm in Przewodow - around four miles from Poland's border with Ukraine.

The blast sparked an international outcry amid the possibility it represented a Russian assault on NATO territory, after the Polish ministry of foreign affairs described the missile as "Russian-made".

However, Moscow insists it did not fire the missile, with Russia's defence ministry denying Russian involvement, saying: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."

This is not Ukraine's fault'

But Polish President Andrzej Duda has said his country is "very likely" to instead invoke Article 4, which allows a member country to raise a security issue and have it discussed.

"From the information that we and our allies have, it was an S-300 rocket made in the Soviet Union, an old rocket and there is no evidence that it was launched by the Russian side," he said.

"It is highly probable that it was fired by Ukrainian anti-aircraft defence to protect Ukrainian territory."

NATO ambassadors have held emergency talks in response to the war's first deadly extension into the territory of the Western alliance.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has also spoken about Tuesday's incident and said whatever the outcome of the investigation into the blast, Russia "bears ultimate responsibility as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine".

"This is not Ukraine's fault," he said.

SKY

This Zelensky seems like he wants to frame Russia for Poland incident. What a snake!

Good on West not to fall for this trap (yet).

 

[sweep_shot]

After Zelensky's comment, I am starting to believe Ukraine probably did it deliberately. They wanted to frame Russia. That's what it seems like now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Theyve already crossed the Dnieper. They are hitting Crimea now... It will be the same as Kherson. They'll hit supply lines until int breaks

Is this Call of Duty Ukraine version as no evidence to support this in reality?

But here...

Russia launches another wave of rocket, drone and missile strikes across Ukraine

Russia has unleashed another wave of rocket, drone and missile strikes across Ukraine in its sixth mass air attack since early October, as Kyiv’s first snows of winter put the country’s already damaged energy infrastructure under greater strain.

Ukraine’s authorities said the attack, like the previous five, had been aimed at destroying the country’s energy system.

Strikes on critical infrastructure in Odesa and Dnipro were confirmed by the presidential administration and the regional heads on Thursday morning. Three people were reportedly injured in Odesa region, its authorities said, while a another 14 people were injured, including a teenager, in the strike on Dnipro city, according to its mayor, Borys Filatov. The Dnipro regional administration reported that five people had been injured.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...nother-wave-of-missile-strikes-across-ukraine



More huge strikes on Ukraine today.

Zelensky still saying its a Russian strike on Poland. His boys, most likely Nazis did a false flag attack to entice a huge war but failed. It seems Nato doesnt want a direct piece of Russia and will only use proxy war, Ukranian lives.

 

[SalimBhai]

Is this Call of Duty Ukraine version as no evidence to support this in reality?

But here...



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...nother-wave-of-missile-strikes-across-ukraine



More huge strikes on Ukraine today.

Zelensky still saying its a Russian strike on Poland. His boys, most likely Nazis did a false flag attack to entice a huge war but failed. It seems Nato doesnt want a direct piece of Russia and will only use proxy war, Ukranian lives.

Seems Russian economy has hit a recession also. Tough times for regular Russians

 

[MenInG]

A video has emerged from the front line in eastern Ukraine showing the surrender of a group of soldiers in an incident that appears to end in their deaths.

Russia has reacted to the footage, accusing Ukraine of executing Russian prisoners of war, which would be a war crime. Ukraine has not yet responded to the allegations.

The BBC has not been able to establish Russia's assertions from the video alone, but we've been studying the footage, trying to piece together what might have happened.

The incident happened on or before Saturday 12 November in Makiyivka, a village on the front line in Luhansk region.

Drone footage appeared later that day and on Sunday on pro-Ukrainian sites showing the bodies of a number of uniformed soldiers lying on the ground in a farmyard.

Part of the footage from this scene also appears in a video posted online by the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence about military operations in the Makiyivka area.

Some social media posts suggest a mortar strike was responsible.

But that version of events has been challenged by pro-Russian outlets who claim the soldiers were shot by personnel from Ukraine's 80th airborne assault brigade.

Then on 17 November more video footage emerged, this time filmed from ground level by someone present at scene, and shouting can be heard in Ukrainian for anyone hiding inside a shed to come out.

They emerge one by one and lie down on the ground.

Voices can be heard asking if everyone is out.

The captors speak Ukrainian in the video, while the uniforms of the captives look Russian not Ukrainian. The Russian defence ministry and media has also said the prisoners are Russian.

This video then shows a man dressed in dark clothing emerging. He appears to be armed and to open fire as he steps forward.

We are unable to tell from the video whether the man is Russian or Ukrainian and exactly what he's firing at.

The camera then falls away as gunfire rings out. The video ends in blurred confusion.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-euro...&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial

 

[MenInG]

A group of Republicans from the United States House of Representatives demanded more scrutiny of US taxpayer-funded aid to Ukraine as Congress took up a White House request for an additional $38 billion in aid to Kyiv.

The Washington Times reported on Friday that the Republican party was critical of sending US taxpayer dollars to Ukraine and maintained that the money should be used to secure America’s southern border — a position held by a small group of Republicans since the start of the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene led the motion calling for an audit of the more than $54 billion in military and economic assistance approved by Congress in support of Kyiv.

“We’re ignoring the dangers happening in our country while we are completely protecting another country’s border and waging a proxy war with Russia,” she said.

Greene’s resolution, which currently has 11 co-sponsors, would require the Pentagon and State Department to preserve and provide Congress with copies of all documents and communication regarding US assistance to Ukraine.

As Congress begins to debate its next spending measure ahead of a mid-December deadline, the White House has requested $10 billion in funds to combat Covid-19 and other infectious diseases, and an additional $37.7 billion in aid to Ukraine.

Express Tribune

 

[James]

<b>Sunak meets Zelenskyy in first visit to Kyiv</b>

British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is on a visit to Ukraine, in a signal of continuing British support for Ukraine and its president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

Also, the first train from the Ukrainian capital Kyiv has arrived in Kherson a week after Russian troops pulled out from the southern city.

Sunak confirmed in the meantime that Britain will provide a 50 million pound ($59.4 million) air defence package for Ukraine, including anti-aircraft guns and technology to counter Iranian-supplied drones, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has said on his first trip to Kyiv.

“We are today providing new air defence, including anti-aircraft guns, radar and anti-drone equipment, and stepping up humanitarian support for the cold, hard winter ahead,” Sunak said in a statement.

Zelenskyy has also spoken on the matter: “During today’s meeting, we discussed the most important issues both for our countries and for global security,” he wrote on the Telegram messaging app. In another message on Twitter, Zelenskyy thanked the British ally for being a key supporter to Ukraine and its war effort.

“With friends like you by our side, we are confident in our victory. Both of our nations know what it means to stand up for freedom,” Zelenskyy wrote.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2022/11/19/170

 

[ex-q-zit]

‘With friends like you, we're confident of victory’: Zelensky after Sunak makes 1st visit to Ukraine as UK PM

“During today's meeting, we discussed the most important issues both for our countries and for global security,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a Facebook post.

British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on Saturday vowed his country would stand by Kyiv's side "until Ukraine has won" during a visit to the Ukrainian capital.

"I am here today to say that the UK will continue to stand with you... until Ukraine has won the peace and security it needs and deserves," Sunak said in a press conference with President Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv.

The British leader announced a new air defence package worth £50 million ($60 million), according to a Downing Street statement.

The package includes "120 aircraft guns, radar and anti-drone equipment", Sunak said.

Ukraine has asked for more air defence systems as Russia is pummelling its energy infrastructure.

This was the first visit to Kyiv for the new British leader, whose country has been a steadfast ally since the beginning of the offensive in February.

"It is deeply humbling to be with you in your country today. The courage of the Ukrainian people is an inspiration to the world," Sunak said.

"In years to come we'll tell our grandchildren of your story, how proud and sovereign people stood up in the face of an appalling onslaught, how you fought, how you sacrificed, how you prevailed," Sunak added.

Zelensky praised a "meaningful and useful visit for both our countries" during the joint press conference.

He said they discussed "the possibilities of protecting European and Ukrainian energy security" and "our capabilities in protecting the Ukrainian sky, as well as defence cooperation in general".

On Twitter, Zelensky said "with friends like you by our side, we are confident in our victory".

https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...ce-becoming-britain-s-pm-101668865726094.html

 

[sweep_shot]

‘With friends like you, we're confident of victory’: Zelensky after Sunak makes 1st visit to Ukraine as UK PM

“During today's meeting, we discussed the most important issues both for our countries and for global security,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a Facebook post.

British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on Saturday vowed his country would stand by Kyiv's side "until Ukraine has won" during a visit to the Ukrainian capital.

"I am here today to say that the UK will continue to stand with you... until Ukraine has won the peace and security it needs and deserves," Sunak said in a press conference with President Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv.

The British leader announced a new air defence package worth £50 million ($60 million), according to a Downing Street statement.

The package includes "120 aircraft guns, radar and anti-drone equipment", Sunak said.

Ukraine has asked for more air defence systems as Russia is pummelling its energy infrastructure.

This was the first visit to Kyiv for the new British leader, whose country has been a steadfast ally since the beginning of the offensive in February.

"It is deeply humbling to be with you in your country today. The courage of the Ukrainian people is an inspiration to the world," Sunak said.

"In years to come we'll tell our grandchildren of your story, how proud and sovereign people stood up in the face of an appalling onslaught, how you fought, how you sacrificed, how you prevailed," Sunak added.

Zelensky praised a "meaningful and useful visit for both our countries" during the joint press conference.

He said they discussed "the possibilities of protecting European and Ukrainian energy security" and "our capabilities in protecting the Ukrainian sky, as well as defence cooperation in general".

On Twitter, Zelensky said "with friends like you by our side, we are confident in our victory".

https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...ce-becoming-britain-s-pm-101668865726094.html

So, Sunak/UK is paying for Ukrainian equipment while people at home are struggling with insufficient heating and rising prices.

Quite astonishing.

 

[MenInG]

So, Sunak/UK is paying for Ukrainian equipment while people at home are struggling with insufficient heating and rising prices.

Quite astonishing.

Rishi Sunak has pledged £50m in defence aid to Ukraine as he met President Volodymyr Zelensky in his first visit to Kyiv since becoming prime minister.

Mr Sunak said it was "deeply humbling" to be in Kyiv and that the UK would continue to stand by Ukraine.

"Since the first days of the war, Ukraine and the UK have been the strongest of allies," Mr Zelensky said following the meeting.

The aid package is intended to counter Russian aerial attacks.

The £50m defence aid comprises 125 anti-aircraft guns and technology to counter deadly Iranian-supplied drones, including dozens of radars and anti-drone electronic warfare capability.

Mr Sunak also announced the UK will increase the training offer to Ukraine's armed forces, sending expert army medics and engineers to the region to offer specialised support.

BBC

 

[MenInG]

Ukraine to investigate video claiming to show soldiers killing Russian prisoners
Ukraine has said it will investigate video footage being shared online, which claims to show soldiers killing Russian prisoners.

Moscow has said the short clips show Ukrainian forces killed Russian troops who may have been trying to surrender, after one of the men seemingly refused to lay down his weapon and opened fire.

The longest snippet, 36 seconds long and with cuts, shows a group of about 10 men in full military gear, some lying on the ground and others emerging one by one from an outbuilding with their hands raised, apparently unarmed.

In the last few seconds of the video, a man emerges from behind the outbuilding. He appears to be armed.

Amid what sounds like sustained gunfire, the video then becomes too blurred to see what happened next

"Of course Ukrainian authorities will investigate this video," Olha Stefanishyna, Ukraine's deputy prime minister overseeing the country's push to join the European Union, said.

However, she added that "it is very unlikely" that the short, edited snippets show what Russia claims.

She explained that Ukrainian forces are "absolutely not interested in the execution of anybody"and are under direct orders to take "as many prisoners of war as we can" so they can be swapped in prisoner exchanges with Russia.

Russian authorities have launched a criminal investigation based on the snippets posted on Russian Telegram channels and relayed on other social media.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova claimed the footage shows an "execution" and said the country's wants an international investigation

 

[captain.hansolo]

thats quite a big IF.

he is a self absorbed but a very calculating leader. he may well decide to hit pause on taiwan conquest for the sake of the moment. that is not the same to say that he would give up on that dream. i dont think any chinese leader, current or future will renounce a claim to taiwan. and none will ever succeed in realizing the dream.

 

[sweep_shot]

he is a self absorbed but a very calculating leader. he may well decide to hit pause on taiwan conquest for the sake of the moment. that is not the same to say that he would give up on that dream. i dont think any chinese leader, current or future will renounce a claim to taiwan. and none will ever succeed in realizing the dream.

What you are saying is not in sync with reality.

Taiwan belongs to China and international community should treat it as such.

 

[captain.hansolo]

What you are saying is not in sync with reality.

Taiwan belongs to China and international community should treat it as such.

that is not the opinion of the taiwanese, or most of the world. the history of the two countries is complex, and yes a strong argument may be made for chinese claim over taiwan, and an equally strong argument could be made for taiwanese sovereignty.

i find it difficult to sympathize with the chinese claim on this matter, given their hegemonic and colonial asparations - from the occupation of tibet, to the abuse of the uyghurs, to the illegal occupation of arunachal pradesh. their predatory practices in sri lanka and eastern africa dont earn them any favors.

if this were a question of whether canada has a claim over quebec (in the hypothetical that quebec was a sovereign state), then i would have been more sympathetic given canadian history, and status on the global stage as a nation of laws and not one of imperial asperations. but this is china. the land where they have used battle tanks against peaceful demonstrators. so yeah, phck china.

 

[Robert]

I found this thread on Twitter. It’s by a Ukrainian woman war refugee in London. Dunno how to post tweets here so will copy and paste it in….

“My parents could not leave Donbas because of elderly relatives. They have been suffering in limbo for over 8 years now. They have had to pretend everything is ok to survive. Since February 24th her father went outside to the street ONCE - to a dentist.

Donetsk has been a ghost city since 2014. Most normal people have left and it has been fully occupied by the Russian zombies. People who stayed are terrified to say a thing and pretend all is fine. No credit cards are operating. Only Russian rubles. Destruction. Wild West.

She says people know of their strong Ukrainian position, but the people who know would never tell this to the Russian occupiers. Thousands of Ukrainian people are living hostage in the dead zone of Russian horror, unable to escape, unable to make a sound.

They've been waiting for 8 years now. They will wait for few more months. I know we will be free. As soon as it happens I will go back home.

I don't believe in God, but I hope Russians do not find her Father and do not force him to fight for russia, like they force many Ukrainians of Donbas.

I believe in justice, I believe in ZSU and the integrity of our Western Allies. People of Donbas deserve to be free! “

And that’s why I oppose the policy of appeasing despots by conceding territory. People on that territory get hurt.

 

[Robert]

So, Sunak/UK is paying for Ukrainian equipment while people at home are struggling with insufficient heating and rising prices.

Quite astonishing.

I suppose it would be quite astonishing to someone who does not value liberty.

 

[SalimBhai]

What you are saying is not in sync with reality.

Taiwan belongs to China and international community should treat it as such.

I think Taiwanese would have a different opinion

 

[Varun]

So, Sunak/UK is paying for Ukrainian equipment while people at home are struggling with insufficient heating and rising prices.

Quite astonishing.

It's even more astonishing that you'll yet live under Sunak/Trudeau/Biden for decades to come, and not under Sheikh Hasina/Khaleda Zia.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I suppose it would be quite astonishing to someone who does not value liberty.

Let's see how much the British public value liberty come the next election. The Tories will be booted out of power, and that's the last we'll hear of snake oil salesman, dishy Rishi.

 

[bones]

Just look at the nonsense Sky's "military experts" keep feeding the public. Apparently it makes no sense for Ukraine to attack a nuclear power plant under Russian control. But it makes full sense for Russia to attack the very power plant they control.

Further in the video he continues with the rubbish about the Russians running out of ammunition, something these guys keep telling us and have done for 6 months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CuGWv8_BY

 

[ex-q-zit]

Russia's 'General Armageddon' under pressure to deliver on battlefield after retreat

LONDON, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Russia's leading war hawks rallied behind the humiliating decision for Moscow's forces to retreat from the Ukrainian city of Kherson this month, but the commander who argued in favour of the move is now under growing pressure to prove it was worth it.

Sergei Surovikin, nicknamed "General Armageddon" by the Russian media for his reputed ruthlessness, on Nov. 9 recommended Moscow's forces quit Kherson and the west bank of the River Dnipro where they were dangerously exposed.

Surovikin, a 56-year-old veteran of wars in Chechnya and Syria who has been decorated by President Vladimir Putin, argued the withdrawal, completed two days later, would allow Moscow to save equipment and redeploy forces there - estimated by the United States at 30,000-strong - to offensives elsewhere.

Some of those troops have since been moved from southern to eastern Ukraine, where fierce fighting is raging, and the Hero of Russia recipient is under pressure on the cusp of winter to show his bet was the right one.

"We await your brilliant results and pray for you, I pray for you every day," Margarita Simonyan, the hawkish editor-in-chief of RT TV and one of the main public proponents of the war, told Surovikin in a TV broadcast last week.

Simonyan urged Surovikin, a hulking shaven-headed figure who has been shown on TV speaking in clipped Russian military language, to ignore "nonsense" from critics, a reference to influential military bloggers unhappy about his retreat.

One of those bloggers, Vladlen Tatarsky, who has more than half a million followers on the Telegram messaging service, had fumed over Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's post-retreat visit to Kherson, questioning why Moscow had not killed him.

"What are we spilling our blood for? Why can Zelenskiy calmly come to Kherson?" Tatarsky asked in a video post.

"Symbolically it would have been great if a Geran (type of drone) had landed on his stupid head but it didn't happen. Why? Either we fight a full-on war or ... nothing will work out."

PRESSURE

Russian arch-nationalist Alexander Dugin, whose daughter Darya was murdered outside Moscow in August in what Russia says was a Ukrainian state assassination, has piled more pressure on Surovikin, saying Kherson was the last chunk of Ukrainian territory that Russia could afford to give up.

"The limit has been reached," Dugin told the nationalist online news outlet Tsargrad.

Senior Russian government officials and war hawks say they want Kherson back at some point, which looks hard to achieve anytime soon.

Nor is taking new ground in the east against a highly motivated and Western-equipped Ukrainian military an easy task, especially in the winter.

Kyiv itself has vowed to continue retaking territory, with Russian officials warning they suspect it may try to open a third front in the west with forces redeployed from Kherson.

Surovikin is also being asked by some to step up Moscow's bombing campaign of Ukrainian energy infrastructure, a tactic the Kremlin has suggested is designed to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table.

Vladimir Solovyov, one of Russia's most famous ultra-nationalist political TV talk show hosts, said last week: "I appeal to the Hero of Russia Army General Surovikin: Comrade Army General, I ask you to complete the total destruction of energy infrastructure of the Nazi Ukrainian junta."

Other state TV commentators have begun to publicly question the handling of the war, albeit in what are likely to be carefully choreographed performances designed to create the impression of genuine public debate.

One, Dmitry Abzalov, complained of what he called an information vacuum, saying he'd like to know "for a change, just once" what Moscow's specific goals were in Ukraine.

Another, Maxim Yusin, complained on air about what he said were lies being peddled by some politicians on state TV boasting that Russian forces were so strong they would be able to reach "the Polish border, Berlin, the English Channel and Lisbon".

"It's a clown show," said Yusin.

Some of the wives and mothers of newly mobilised men have organised to try to pressure the defence ministry over what they say is inadequate training and equipment.

Their numbers are relatively modest so far, but some of their complaints, largely rejected by the defence ministry, chime with those made by public figures who support the war.

FALL GUY?

The appointment of Surovikin on Oct. 8 was the first time Russia had publicly named an overall commander for its forces in Ukraine.

The Kherson withdrawal went faster and more smoothly than many Western military analysts had expected, with a senior U.S. military official telling Reuters it had been "relatively orderly" compared with previous Russian retreats.

British military intelligence concurred, saying in a statement on Sunday that Moscow's forces had probably been successful at limiting the loss of military hardware while destroying what they had left behind.

While the Russian army continued to suffer from poor junior and mid-level leadership, it said, "...this relative success is likely partially due to a more effective, single operational command under General Sergei Surovikin".

Ukraine's defence minister and Western diplomats say the general appears to have brought greater discipline, as well as more brutality with his stepped-up infrastructure attacks.

"Surovikin has made a big difference to the way they are functioning," said Anthony Brenton, Britain's former ambassador to Russia. "...there's more of a sense of coherence and sensible purpose about what Russia is now up to militarily."

In some Russian circles, his appointment was seen as setting up a potential fall guy while insulating Putin and, to a lesser extent, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, from direct criticism.

"It was obvious that Surovikin's appointment and the praise heaped upon him were at least partly due to the need to create a figure with a mandate for 'shameful' actions that Putin didn't want to take in his own name," said Alexander Baunov, a former Russian diplomat who is now a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace think-tank.

Surovikin fitted the bill, said Baunov, because his image as a Siberian willing to use brutal tactics to get results appealed to Russian nationalists and he had the authority in their eyes to oversee a retreat without opening up too many dangerous internal divisions.

"The general has used half his mandate. Now he will be expected to use the other half," said Baunov.

"For some, this will be seen as a new offensive that will prove that all the retreats were actually a tactical manoeuvre. For others, it will be seen as a way of forcing Ukraine to enter into peace talks using the following formula: the city of Kherson in exchange for peace, electricity, water and heating in Ukrainian cities."

Konrad Muzyka, a Polish defence analyst who recently returned from Ukraine, said that, after Kherson, the moment of truth for the Russian army had arrived.

With the exception of the city of Lysychansk, in eastern Ukraine, he said all the territory Russia held looked defensible.

"Everything now depends on the military commanders, the quality of the equipment, and the ability of their troops to take a punch from Ukraine, hold the line, and then try to counterattack in some way," he said.

Reuters

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Taiwanese would have a different opinion

Taiwan's opinion doesn't count as it belongs to China. China earned it whey they won the civil war.

 

[sweep_shot]

It's even more astonishing that you'll yet live under Sunak/Trudeau/Biden for decades to come, and not under Sheikh Hasina/Khaleda Zia.

It is astonishing that someone is commenting like this despite not living in any of those countries.

I suppose it would be quite astonishing to someone who does not value liberty.

It is astonishing that someone doesn't understand the difference between liberty and stupidity.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I found this thread on Twitter. It’s by a Ukrainian woman war refugee in London. Dunno how to post tweets here so will copy and paste it in….

“My parents could not leave Donbas because of elderly relatives. They have been suffering in limbo for over 8 years now. They have had to pretend everything is ok to survive. Since February 24th her father went outside to the street ONCE - to a dentist.

Donetsk has been a ghost city since 2014. Most normal people have left and it has been fully occupied by the Russian zombies. People who stayed are terrified to say a thing and pretend all is fine. No credit cards are operating. Only Russian rubles. Destruction. Wild West.

She says people know of their strong Ukrainian position, but the people who know would never tell this to the Russian occupiers. Thousands of Ukrainian people are living hostage in the dead zone of Russian horror, unable to escape, unable to make a sound.

They've been waiting for 8 years now. They will wait for few more months. I know we will be free. As soon as it happens I will go back home.

I don't believe in God, but I hope Russians do not find her Father and do not force him to fight for russia, like they force many Ukrainians of Donbas.

I believe in justice, I believe in ZSU and the integrity of our Western Allies. People of Donbas deserve to be free! “

And that’s why I oppose the policy of appeasing despots by conceding territory. People on that territory get hurt.

But you didnt show so much care for the Russian speakers who were being butchered in Donbass from 2014-2022. Putin is a liberator not a despot.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Russia has pulled out some lovely but serious toys now.

The Iskander Missile has been launched, its very high tech with the ability to manoeuvre. Russian Tanks which are very powerful have also entered the confilct.

The next few weeks will be a disaster for Ukraine.

They may try another false flag on another Nato member or attack the nuclear plant/