[VIDEOS] Mohammed Shami - An underrated star in all formats

[Ab Fan]

Top 10 Asian fast bowlers( minimum limit-150 test wickets) :-

Wasim, Imran, Waqar

Kapil, Akhtar, Shami, Vaas

Zaheer, Srinath, Amir

Pakistan has 5 names in top 10 while India has 4 and 1 for SL. Once Bumrah gets to 150 test wickets, India will overtake Pakistan with more numbers of fast bowlers in top 10 list.

 

[Bhaijaan]

he is greater than shoaib.

I understand your emotions.

Shami is definitely better than Waqar but Shoaib is legendary. A bowler like Shoaib Akhtar has never been born and probably we will never see another one like him in our lifetime. Please learn to respect the special things before they are no more there. I miss my girlfriend.

 

[tyron_woodley]

I understand your emotions.

Shami is definitely better than Waqar but Shoaib is legendary. A bowler like Shoaib Akhtar has never been born and probably we will never see another one like him in our lifetime. Please learn to respect the special things before they are no more there. I miss my girlfriend.

bumrah is already better than shoaib ever was. He achieved more than anything shoaib ever did with the australia series win away. shami too.

waqar is a phony. I never rated that overrated one trick pony. imran and wasim yes for sure. They are real greats.

 

[Bhaijaan]

bumrah is already better than shoaib ever was. He achieved more than anything shoaib ever did with the australia series win away. shami too.

waqar is a phony. I never rated that overrated one trick pony. imran and wasim yes for sure. They are real greats.

Waqar is a genuine great of the game. Just because Shami is better does not mean Waqar was bad. He is the best swing bowler ever produced by Asia and second only to the great Sir Richard Hadlee.

Hadlee
Waqar
Anderson

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mohammed Shami on Instagram "I spent some time with Wasim Akram. I didn't see him as a former opposition bowler or from Pakistan. Instead, I really admired his nature and the way he would share his skills and knowledge" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/cFmahcvtiL">pic.twitter.com/cFmahcvtiL</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1256617828121284609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 2, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[The Viper]

Mohammed Shami Makes Shocking Revelation About His Darkest Moments, Says Thought of Committing Suicide Three Times Due to Personal Issues

India's pace ace Mohammed Shami made a shocking revelation on Saturday that he contemplated committing suicide three times while dealing with severe stress due to personal and professional issues. During an Instagram live chat with Indian limited-overs vice-captain Rohit Sharma, Shami revealed that he struggled to maintain focus after an injury in the 2015 ICC World Cup which kept him away from the action for nearly 18 months. However, Shami credited his family for their unparalleled support during the testing times which helped him recover strongly.

In early 2018, Shami's wife Hasin Jahan had accused the fast bowler of domestic violence. Shami and his brother were booked for domestic violence under IPC Section 498A. Jahan also posted screenshots of Shami's alleged chats with different women on social media. A local court in West Bengal issued an arrest warrant against Shami in September last year in the case.

"In 2015 I was injured at the World Cup. After that it took some 18 months to get back (into the Indian team) and this was the most painful phase of my career," said Shami. "You know how difficult rehab gets and after that came the family problems. That was going on and in between all that I had an accident which was around 10-12 days before the IPL. A lot of hype was going in the media also with my personal issues," he said.

The 29-year-old attributes the support he got from his family as the reason why he managed to bounce back from that phase to become an integral part of Team India in all formats.

"I feel if I didn't have support from my family, then I would have left cricket. I had thought of suicide thrice at the time. Someone used to sit with me in my house to keep an eye on me. The house was on the 24th floor and they were afraid that I might jump out of my apartment," Shami said.

"My brother supported me a lot. My 2-3 friends used to stay with me for 24 hours. My parents asked me to focus on cricket to recover from that phase and not think about anything else. I started training then and sweated it out a lot at an academy in Dehradun," he added.

Since then, Shami has taken some big strides in international cricket and went on to become an integral part of the Indian fast bowling unit along with the likes of Jasprit Bumrah, Ishant Sharma, Umesh Yadav, and Bhuvneshwar Kumar. He was the leading wicket-taker for India in the longest format in 2019. Shami scalped 33 wickets in just 8 Test matches last year.

At the 2019 ICC Cricket World Cup, Shami became the second Indian bowler to take a World Cup hat-trick.

https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...-issues-927998/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Bhaijaan]

Without question, the greatest pure fast bowler in the world right now.

Cummins is cute but doesn't have the skill and versatility of Shami.

Shami is also the only bowler in this generation who would dominate Viv Richards

 

[Bhaijaan]

Is Mohammad Shami India's second greatest fast bowler ever after legendary Kapil Dev?

I had a dream in which Shami was dominating Viv Richards with bouncers and reverse swinging yorkers.

 

[Xoib]

I think it still Srinath though both Shami and Boom will end up higher them him.Boom can end up as greater then Kapil paa jee I think.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I think it still Srinath though both Shami and Boom will end up higher them him.Boom can end up as greater then Kapil paa jee I think.

Unfortunately Bumrah did not seem like the dame after his injury. He returned as a medium pave trundler T20 bowler.

Shami has had a magical resurgence in terms of pace and fitness.

He is slightly slower than Wahab but a lot more skillfull and skiddy.

Having seen Rabada treated like a donkey in India im now convinced he's the greatest fast bowler in the world right now.

 

[Ab Fan]

Zaheer Khan. Left arm fast bowling, can move the bowl both ways and reverse swing with the old bowl at a good pace. A leader of the attack.

India's only fast bowler you would pay to watch.

 

[sweep_shot]

I had a dream in which Shami was dominating Viv Richards with bouncers and reverse swinging yorkers.

Bumrah is probably better than him.

 

[Junaids]

He just has a rotten record outside Asia, unfortunately.

He is already about to turn 30, so he is at the age at which a fast bowler goes into decline. And here is his very disappointing record in SENA:

In Australia: 31 wickets in 7 Tests at 30.83
In England: 21 wickets in 8 Tests at 47.04
In New Zealand: 15 wickets in 4 Tests at 35.60
In South Africa: 21 wickets in 5 Tests at 24.71

It's just a very mediocre record.

Mohammad Shami in SENA
24 Tests
88 wickets
Average of 34.06

That's not great but it's ok.

It puts Mohammad Shami in the same bracket as third rate bowlers like Aaqib Javed, Saleem Jaffer, Azhar Mahmood

Slightly better than fourth raters like Rana Naved, so a fair bit better than Abdul Razzaq.

But much worse than second class bowlers like Andy Caddick or Dion Nash or Andy Bichel.

 

[Junaids]

Reviewing the numbers further, I think Shami obviously isn't in the McGrath class, or even in the Gillespie class.

But he does seem to have a fairly similar record to Australian support bowlers like Mike Kasprowicz or Andy Bichel, just a little bit worse than Ben Hilfenhaus.

 

[Slog]

Reviewing the numbers further, I think Shami obviously isn't in the McGrath class, or even in the Gillespie class.

But he does seem to have a fairly similar record to Australian support bowlers like Mike Kasprowicz or Andy Bichel, just a little bit worse than Ben Hilfenhaus.

Hilfenhaus and Kasprowicz were both good bowlers and I’d say Shami is slightly higher since his impact on his side was higher than those two.

Also test cricket is home and away. His away record (even within just SENA) is respectable
If nothing great. And his home record is very good so as an overall bowler he is good. You cannot just wish away the home record otherwise bowlers like Thomson and Lillee would find themselves very low down the pecking order

 

[Junaids]

Hilfenhaus and Kasprowicz were both good bowlers and I’d say Shami is slightly higher since his impact on his side was higher than those two.

Also test cricket is home and away. His away record (even within just SENA) is respectable
If nothing great. And his home record is very good so as an overall bowler he is good. You cannot just wish away the home record otherwise bowlers like Thomson and Lillee would find themselves very low down the pecking order

Those are very good points, but I'd word things this way.

India and Pakistan have played Test cricket over six decades. India has been the stronger Test team for the last 15 years, but Pakistan was more competitive away from home from 1950 to 2003 because away success in Test cricket is basically determined by the quality of a team's fast bowling.

And unfortunately Mohammad Shami is rubbish outside Asia.

Teams like India 2000-2010 and Sri Lanka a few years ago can reach a (fairly low) ceiling of success outside Asia based upon their batting, but they don't frighten anyone outside Asia until they have a serious pace attack.

India now find themselves in an unusual situation. Their batting is much weaker than it has been for nearly 30 years - even in the early 1990's they had Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Sidhu, Manjrekar and Kambli.

But their pace bowling has more depth than it ever has had before.

That's not saying much because:

Jasprit Bumrah is 26 and a half but only has 68 Test wickets.
Mohammad Shami is nearly 30 and only has 180 Test wickets.
Ishant Sharma is almost 32, and has just 297 Test wickets at an average of over 30.
Umesh Yadav is nearly 33, and has just 144 Test wickets.

In other words, India has its strongest ever pace attack - because they have four mediocre quicks at the same time. And none of them are spring chickens - for their age every one of them has a shockingly low number of Test wickets.

In 2003 Australia could have put out two Test fast bowling attacks.

One would have been McGrath, Gillespie and Lee - and India and Pakistan can only dream of such an attack.

The reserves would have been Bichel, Kasprowicz and Bracken. And the current Indian attack is basically of that quality.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Those are very good points, but I'd word things this way.

India and Pakistan have played Test cricket over six decades. India has been the stronger Test team for the last 15 years, but Pakistan was more competitive away from home from 1950 to 2003 because away success in Test cricket is basically determined by the quality of a team's fast bowling.

And unfortunately Mohammad Shami is rubbish outside Asia.

Teams like India 2000-2010 and Sri Lanka a few years ago can reach a (fairly low) ceiling of success outside Asia based upon their batting, but they don't frighten anyone outside Asia until they have a serious pace attack.

India now find themselves in an unusual situation. Their batting is much weaker than it has been for nearly 30 years - even in the early 1990's they had Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Sidhu, Manjrekar and Kambli.

But their pace bowling has more depth than it ever has had before.

That's not saying much because:

Jasprit Bumrah is 26 and a half but only has 68 Test wickets.
Mohammad Shami is nearly 30 and only has 180 Test wickets.
Ishant Sharma is almost 32, and has just 297 Test wickets at an average of over 30.
Umesh Yadav is nearly 33, and has just 144 Test wickets.

In other words, India has its strongest ever pace attack - because they have four mediocre quicks at the same time. And none of them are spring chickens - for their age every one of them has a shockingly low number of Test wickets.

In 2003 Australia could have put out two Test fast bowling attacks.

One would have been McGrath, Gillespie and Lee - and India and Pakistan can only dream of such an attack.

The reserves would have been Bichel, Kasprowicz and Bracken. And the current Indian attack is basically of that quality.

It is unfair to compare any team with that Aussie team. They had great batsmen, the greatest WK and great bowlers. No weak links whatsoever.

Only WI of 80s (and maybe Pakistan of late 80s/90s) can compete with that great team, such is their class.

 

[Junaids]

It is unfair to compare any team with that Aussie team. They had great batsmen, the greatest WK and great bowlers. No weak links whatsoever.

Only WI of 80s (and maybe Pakistan of late 80s/90s) can compete with that great team, such is their class.

Maybe I should give a different example.

The closest thing to a world class pace bowler in India is Jasprit Bumrah. But at the age of 26 he has a grand total of 68 Test wickets in his life, and has never looked right since his spinal fractures.

Yes, India have a larger number of Test-class third seamers than ever before - they have three in Ishant, Yadav and Shami.

But they aren't just mediocre compared to the great Aussie attack. None of them are as good a bowler as Jacques Kallis, let alone Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Dale Steyn or even Makhaya Ntini.

Having several mediocre quick bowlers at the same time is good by Indian standards - they never have had such depth of pace bowling before.

But deep down every cricket follower in the world knows that Ishant, Yadav and Shami have already peaked at their ceiling, and it's a pretty ordinary ceiling.

Even today, none of those three are as good as Shaheen Shah Afridi or Naseem Shah - and the older of those two is 20 years and 1 month old, and he already is within 38 wickets of overtaking Bumrah's lifetime tally.

My personal view is this. India has previously had the odd excellent fast-medium bowler like Kapil Dev or Javagal Srinath who has been highly skilled but not particularly quick.

This meant that opposition batsmen never found themselves in the sort of relentless physical battle for survival that Steve Smith found himself in against Jofra Archer, or Kevin Pietersen against Shoaib Akhtar, or Graham Gooch against Waqar Younis.

Mohammad Shami is quick enough and often bowls short, and therefore I think Indian fans get some of the same sense of roughing up batsmen that other countries are used to. The fact that he takes his wickets at 47 in England, 36 in New Zealand and 31 against a below-strength Australia doesn't seem to register - they just see their attack exerting some physical menace even Shami isn't good enough to back it up with enough skill to get the batsmen out.

To me Shoaib Akhtar's pathetic tally of 178 Test wickets is what happens when a fast bowler forgets that his job is to get people out and win matches. I get a similar but worse sensation when I watch Shami bowl: Shami is a guy who can rough up a batsman, but who hasn't got the skills to take his wicket.

In the recent New Zealand Tests Shami took 5 wickets at 37 while superior bowlers like Southee and Boult took 14 and 11 wickets, and even Kyle Jamieson in his debut series took 9 wickets at 16.33.

 

[Junaids]

I had a dream in which Shami was dominating Viv Richards with bouncers and reverse swinging yorkers.

Even Imran and Wasim never really managed that!

 

[Ab Fan]

BCCI is focussing on making Jasprit Bumrah a full-time T20 bowler and a part-time test bowler.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Even Imran and Wasim never really managed that!

Bro, sadly Indian bowlers hit maturity in their early 30s.

Stats don't lie as you posted above.

Shami was verg mediocre earlier.

But he has had a renaissance.

In last few years he's been spectacular.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It is unfair to compare any team with that Aussie team. They had great batsmen, the greatest WK and great bowlers. No weak links whatsoever.

Only WI of 80s (and maybe Pakistan of late 80s/90s) can compete with that great team, such is their class.

definitely not pakistan of 80s 90s or any era.

india of 2006- 2010 can and did match them well.

Virat's india would obliterate them in India like they do with everyone else. They would lose away.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Maybe I should give a different example.

The closest thing to a world class pace bowler in India is Jasprit Bumrah. But at the age of 26 he has a grand total of 68 Test wickets in his life, and has never looked right since his spinal fractures.

Yes, India have a larger number of Test-class third seamers than ever before - they have three in Ishant, Yadav and Shami.

But they aren't just mediocre compared to the great Aussie attack. None of them are as good a bowler as Jacques Kallis, let alone Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Dale Steyn or even Makhaya Ntini.

Having several mediocre quick bowlers at the same time is good by Indian standards - they never have had such depth of pace bowling before.

But deep down every cricket follower in the world knows that Ishant, Yadav and Shami have already peaked at their ceiling, and it's a pretty ordinary ceiling.

Even today, none of those three are as good as Shaheen Shah Afridi or Naseem Shah - and the older of those two is 20 years and 1 month old, and he already is within 38 wickets of overtaking Bumrah's lifetime tally.

My personal view is this. India has previously had the odd excellent fast-medium bowler like Kapil Dev or Javagal Srinath who has been highly skilled but not particularly quick.

This meant that opposition batsmen never found themselves in the sort of relentless physical battle for survival that Steve Smith found himself in against Jofra Archer, or Kevin Pietersen against Shoaib Akhtar, or Graham Gooch against Waqar Younis.

Mohammad Shami is quick enough and often bowls short, and therefore I think Indian fans get some of the same sense of roughing up batsmen that other countries are used to. The fact that he takes his wickets at 47 in England, 36 in New Zealand and 31 against a below-strength Australia doesn't seem to register - they just see their attack exerting some physical menace even Shami isn't good enough to back it up with enough skill to get the batsmen out.

To me Shoaib Akhtar's pathetic tally of 178 Test wickets is what happens when a fast bowler forgets that his job is to get people out and win matches. I get a similar but worse sensation when I watch Shami bowl: Shami is a guy who can rough up a batsman, but who hasn't got the skills to take his wicket.

In the recent New Zealand Tests Shami took 5 wickets at 37 while superior bowlers like Southee and Boult took 14 and 11 wickets, and even Kyle Jamieson in his debut series took 9 wickets at 16.33.

as usual you spout rubbish out of hatred. Indian bowlers in Asian conditions are the best. They will outbowl everyone in Asia including past greats.

Your naseem or shaheen aren't at their level yet especially not in Asia.
What's naseem and shaheen average in australia? yea that's what I thought.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Those are very good points, but I'd word things this way.

India and Pakistan have played Test cricket over six decades. India has been the stronger Test team for the last 15 years, but Pakistan was more competitive away from home from 1950 to 2003 because away success in Test cricket is basically determined by the quality of a team's fast bowling.

And unfortunately Mohammad Shami is rubbish outside Asia.

Teams like India 2000-2010 and Sri Lanka a few years ago can reach a (fairly low) ceiling of success outside Asia based upon their batting, but they don't frighten anyone outside Asia until they have a serious pace attack.

India now find themselves in an unusual situation. Their batting is much weaker than it has been for nearly 30 years - even in the early 1990's they had Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Sidhu, Manjrekar and Kambli.

But their pace bowling has more depth than it ever has had before.

That's not saying much because:

Jasprit Bumrah is 26 and a half but only has 68 Test wickets.
Mohammad Shami is nearly 30 and only has 180 Test wickets.
Ishant Sharma is almost 32, and has just 297 Test wickets at an average of over 30.
Umesh Yadav is nearly 33, and has just 144 Test wickets.

In other words, India has its strongest ever pace attack - because they have four mediocre quicks at the same time. And none of them are spring chickens - for their age every one of them has a shockingly low number of Test wickets.

In 2003 Australia could have put out two Test fast bowling attacks.

One would have been McGrath, Gillespie and Lee - and India and Pakistan can only dream of such an attack.

The reserves would have been Bichel, Kasprowicz and Bracken. And the current Indian attack is basically of that quality.

Those are very good points, but I'd word things this way.

India and Pakistan have played Test cricket over six decades. India has been the stronger Test team for the last 15 years, but Pakistan was more competitive away from home from 1950 to 2003 because away success in Test cricket is basically determined by the quality of a team's fast bowling.

And unfortunately Mohammad Shami is rubbish outside Asia.

Teams like India 2000-2010 and Sri Lanka a few years ago can reach a (fairly low) ceiling of success outside Asia based upon their batting, but they don't frighten anyone outside Asia until they have a serious pace attack.

India now find themselves in an unusual situation. Their batting is much weaker than it has been for nearly 30 years - even in the early 1990's they had Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Sidhu, Manjrekar and Kambli.

But their pace bowling has more depth than it ever has had before.

That's not saying much because:

Jasprit Bumrah is 26 and a half but only has 68 Test wickets.
Mohammad Shami is nearly 30 and only has 180 Test wickets.
Ishant Sharma is almost 32, and has just 297 Test wickets at an average of over 30.
Umesh Yadav is nearly 33, and has just 144 Test wickets.

In other words, India has its strongest ever pace attack - because they have four mediocre quicks at the same time. And none of them are spring chickens - for their age every one of them has a shockingly low number of Test wickets.

In 2003 Australia could have put out two Test fast bowling attacks.

One would have been McGrath, Gillespie and Lee - and India and Pakistan can only dream of such an attack.

The reserves would have been Bichel, Kasprowicz and Bracken. And the current Indian attack is basically of that quality.

BEN hilfenhaus india:44 eng :28 SA:53 WI:22 AUS:31
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31
Hilfenhaus hasnt played a match in nz,srilanka,ban.

Now please tell me,is there any comparison between these two bowlers.Mohd Shami is atleast twice the bowler hilfenhaus was.

Secondly bowling in SENA conditions is not the only test,you need to perform in asian conditions to be regarded as a legend.Philander has great avg in SENA countries but looked like a worthless trundler last time he toured india.

ANDY BICHEL- SA:50 WI-32 AUS-37
MOHD SHAMI- SA-23 WI-22 AUS-30
Bichel played in only these countries.
Again,no comparison whatsoever.If bichel is a second class bowler then shami is obviously in the highest class.Comparing bichel with shami is a joke even by your standards JUNAIDS.
Shamis performances trumps bichel in each and every country.

Now an actual worthy competitor

ANDY CADDICK india:NA eng-30 SA-30 WI-31 AUS-35 NZ-21 SL-25
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31 NZ-34 SL-17

This is the only comparison that is really fair,but caddick didnt play a single test in india against the fab 4 batting lineup otherwise his stats would have taken a big dip.Even in england he avgs 38 against india.

BRETT LEE eng-45 ind-62 nz-18 sa-28 wi-27 ban-93 srl-56 uae-41 aus-29
MOHD SHAMI ENG-46 ind-21 nz-35 sa-23 wi-22 ban-NA srl-17 uae-NA aus-30

Another joke of a comparison,shami beats brett lee to a pulp in test cricket.

JAQUES KALLIS- aus-42 eng-30 ind-39 nz-47 srl-39 wi-32 SA-30
MOHD SHAMI - aus-30 eng-46 ind-21 nz-35 srl-17 wi-22 SA-24

Yet another joke [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] ,now please explain how all these bowlers are better than SHAMI.

 

[Bhaijaan]

All arguement aside, in 2020, Mohammad Shami is the most lethal all condition all format fast bowler in the world.

 

[tyron_woodley]

BEN hilfenhaus india:44 eng :28 SA:53 WI:22 AUS:31
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31
Hilfenhaus hasnt played a match in nz,srilanka,ban.

Now please tell me,is there any comparison between these two bowlers.Mohd Shami is atleast twice the bowler hilfenhaus was.

Secondly bowling in SENA conditions is not the only test,you need to perform in asian conditions to be regarded as a legend.Philander has great avg in SENA countries but looked like a worthless trundler last time he toured india.

ANDY BICHEL- SA:50 WI-32 AUS-37
MOHD SHAMI- SA-23 WI-22 AUS-30
Bichel played in only these countries.
Again,no comparison whatsoever.If bichel is a second class bowler then shami is obviously in the highest class.Comparing bichel with shami is a joke even by your standards JUNAIDS.
Shamis performances trumps bichel in each and every country.

Now an actual worthy competitor

ANDY CADDICK india:NA eng-30 SA-30 WI-31 AUS-35 NZ-21 SL-25
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31 NZ-34 SL-17

This is the only comparison that is really fair,but caddick didnt play a single test in india against the fab 4 batting lineup otherwise his stats would have taken a big dip.Even in england he avgs 38 against india.

BRETT LEE eng-45 ind-62 nz-18 sa-28 wi-27 ban-93 srl-56 uae-41 aus-29
MOHD SHAMI ENG-46 ind-21 nz-35 sa-23 wi-22 ban-NA srl-17 uae-NA aus-30

Another joke of a comparison,shami beats brett lee to a pulp in test cricket.

JAQUES KALLIS- aus-42 eng-30 ind-39 nz-47 srl-39 wi-32 SA-30
MOHD SHAMI - aus-30 eng-46 ind-21 nz-35 srl-17 wi-22 SA-24

Yet another joke [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] ,now please explain how all these bowlers are better than SHAMI.

amen. I was going to post the stats of these much vaunted phassst fodders FROM SENA and talk about their performances particularly in india which is the hardest place to tour for at team.

Lol it's hilarious how mediocre many of those said great bowlers have been in india and even in Asia in general.

Only steyn is a true Great. I respect him. donald yes but if you are going to say india beat a weakened australia without smith and warner away then I can also say the same about south africa winning vs a weak indian side without many of the greats that were drafted in the team later.


Only steyn and donald are better.

As for pakistan, aseem will be found out soon. Looks like a wahab so far.
shaheen is good but it's still too early to say. His performance vs australia was mediocre desire being better than the rest. He looked ok since others were beyond abysmal.

People also need to factor in fatigue for the Indian side because they play more games than any other team in all formats. Schedule is packed. Can't always be in peak form and it showed vs n.z

If india prepares properly for n.z they can beat them but in my opninom none of the key players were in peak form for that series. That's the problem when you have to tour away consistently. Fatigue is bound to show at some point.

 

[Junaids]

BEN hilfenhaus india:44 eng :28 SA:53 WI:22 AUS:31
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31
Hilfenhaus hasnt played a match in nz,srilanka,ban.

Now please tell me,is there any comparison between these two bowlers.Mohd Shami is atleast twice the bowler hilfenhaus was.

Secondly bowling in SENA conditions is not the only test,you need to perform in asian conditions to be regarded as a legend.Philander has great avg in SENA countries but looked like a worthless trundler last time he toured india.

ANDY BICHEL- SA:50 WI-32 AUS-37
MOHD SHAMI- SA-23 WI-22 AUS-30
Bichel played in only these countries.
Again,no comparison whatsoever.If bichel is a second class bowler then shami is obviously in the highest class.Comparing bichel with shami is a joke even by your standards JUNAIDS.
Shamis performances trumps bichel in each and every country.

Now an actual worthy competitor

ANDY CADDICK india:NA eng-30 SA-30 WI-31 AUS-35 NZ-21 SL-25
Mohd Shami india:21 eng:46 SA:23 WI:22 AUS:31 NZ-34 SL-17

This is the only comparison that is really fair,but caddick didnt play a single test in india against the fab 4 batting lineup otherwise his stats would have taken a big dip.Even in england he avgs 38 against india.

BRETT LEE eng-45 ind-62 nz-18 sa-28 wi-27 ban-93 srl-56 uae-41 aus-29
MOHD SHAMI ENG-46 ind-21 nz-35 sa-23 wi-22 ban-NA srl-17 uae-NA aus-30

Another joke of a comparison,shami beats brett lee to a pulp in test cricket.

JAQUES KALLIS- aus-42 eng-30 ind-39 nz-47 srl-39 wi-32 SA-30
MOHD SHAMI - aus-30 eng-46 ind-21 nz-35 srl-17 wi-22 SA-24

Yet another joke [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] ,now please explain how all these bowlers are better than SHAMI.

You can insert all the averages you like against Sri Lanka and the West Indies and Outer Mongolia and Burkina Faso.

Shami averages 34.06 in SENA. And my whole point was that you need good fast bowlers to win there - which is why out of India’s last 14 Tests against full-strength opposition in SENA their record reads:

Played 14
Won 2
Lost 12

Faheem Ashraf has a better Test bowling record in SENA than Mohammad Shami: he averages 21.8 runs per wicket while Shami averages 34.06.

And that’s just a fact.

 

[Junaids]

Test Bowling Averages

In England:
Mohammad Shami 47.04
Faheem Ashraf 29.75

In South Africa:
Mohammad Shami 24.71
Faheem Ashraf 16.50

So basically Shami is around 60% as good as Faheem Ashraf. Minus the batting.

 

[Ab Fan]

Test Bowling Averages

In England:
Mohammad Shami 47.04
Faheem Ashraf 29.75

In South Africa:
Mohammad Shami 24.71
Faheem Ashraf 16.50

So basically Shami is around 60% as good as Faheem Ashraf. Minus the batting.

But isn't this the case with all great bowlers today?

What are the averages of James Anderson, Trent Boult and Stuart Broad away in South Africa, India, Australia and England/NZ? And what is Rabada's avg away from home?

 

[Abdullah719]

Test Bowling Averages

In England:
Mohammad Shami 47.04
Faheem Ashraf 29.75

In South Africa:
Mohammad Shami 24.71
Faheem Ashraf 16.50

So basically Shami is around 60% as good as Faheem Ashraf. Minus the batting.

Can't argue with the stats

 

[Square Drive]

You can insert all the averages you like against Sri Lanka and the West Indies and Outer Mongolia and Burkina Faso.

Shami averages 34.06 in SENA. And my whole point was that you need good fast bowlers to win there - which is why out of India’s last 14 Tests against full-strength opposition in SENA their record reads:

Played 14
Won 2
Lost 12

Faheem Ashraf has a better Test bowling record in SENA than Mohammad Shami: he averages 21.8 runs per wicket while Shami averages 34.06.

And that’s just a fact.

)

Love this guy.

 

[KP From India]

Isn't it far more shameful to fail against mid tier sides than the sides having some quality batsmen?

 

[Square Drive]

Wait - did I just read in this thread that Shami is better than Waqar?!

) )

Have heard it all.

 

[Junaids]

Wait - did I just read in this thread that Shami is better than Waqar?!

) )

Have heard it all.

It’s just a fact!

Shami has 180 Test wickets at 27.36.
Waqar took 373 Test wickets at 23.56.

And Shami won’t be 30 for another 3 months....

 

[Square Drive]

Top 10 Asian fast bowlers( minimum limit-150 test wickets) :-

Wasim, Imran, Waqar

Kapil, Akhtar, Shami, Vaas

Zaheer, Srinath, Amir

Pakistan has 5 names in top 10 while India has 4 and 1 for SL. Once Bumrah gets to 150 test wickets, India will overtake Pakistan with more numbers of fast bowlers in top 10 list.

No Ishant?

 

[Ab Fan]

No Ishant?

Amir does not have 150 test wickets, so let's drop him. Any suggestion for 10th spot with atleast 150 test wickets?

If no, I will go with Ishant. His last 150 wickets have come up at average of 25. So, 5 from India and 4 from Pakistan

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Test Bowling Averages

In England:
Mohammad Shami 47.04
Faheem Ashraf 29.75

In South Africa:
Mohammad Shami 24.71
Faheem Ashraf 16.50

So basically Shami is around 60% as good as Faheem Ashraf. Minus the batting.

Well i thought about writing a sensible post explaining you that sample size also matters but that won't help.

Averages
In england:

Bhuvneshwar kumar-26
Waqar younis - 28

In south africa
Bhuvneshwar kumar - 20
Waqar younis-29

So basically Waqar was around 80% as good as Bhuvneshwar Kumar. Minus the batting.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Mohammad Shami is also marginally behind Mitchell Starc as the greatest ever fast bowler in world cup history.

Shami dominated 2025, 2019 World cups like not even a lot of the big names did

 

[Bhaijaan]

Int he World cups,

Shami >> Talk to no man

 

[Square Drive]

Amir does not have 150 test wickets, so let's drop him. Any suggestion for 10th spot with atleast 150 test wickets?

If no, I will go with Ishant. His last 150 wickets have come up at average of 25. So, 5 from India and 4 from Pakistan

Well Ishant nearly has 300 Test wickets and Ishant 2.0 has been great.

Just a matter of time before Bumrah gets in there as well.

From Pakistan, Shaheen and Abbas are looking good to make the list. Hasan if he sorts his injuries and other issues out.

Naseem as well, but that's a while away.

 

[andy0204]

Mohammad Shami is also marginally behind Mitchell Starc as the greatest ever fast bowler in world cup history.

Shami dominated 2025, 2019 World cups like not even a lot of the big names did

2025 bhaijaan time machine me dekhe aaye kya .

 

[Bhaijaan]

2025 bhaijaan time machine me dekhe aaye kya .

Oh sorry, 2025 hasn't yet come in you propels life

 

[Ab Fan]

Well Ishant nearly has 300 Test wickets and Ishant 2.0 has been great.

Just a matter of time before Bumrah gets in there as well.

From Pakistan, Shaheen and Abbas are looking good to make the list. Hasan if he sorts his injuries and other issues out.

Naseem as well, but that's a while away.

We can find it out if Bhaijaan allows us to travel through his time machine or else we will have to wait.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Test Bowling Averages

In England:
Mohammad Shami 47.04
Faheem Ashraf 29.75

In South Africa:
Mohammad Shami 24.71
Faheem Ashraf 16.50

So basically Shami is around 60% as good as Faheem Ashraf. Minus the batting.

rabada averages 50 in india.
philander 65.
waqar 50 plus.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Its time for the oldies to realise that india runs the icc now.
The myth that "only cricket in SENA conditions matter" has been broken into a thousand pieces.

Your Green track bully bowlers who perform well in SENA conditions and get thrashed around like a 12 year boy as soon as they arrive in asia won't find any place among the list of greats.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Its time for the oldies to realise that india runs the icc now.
The myth that "only cricket in SENA conditions matter" has been broken into a thousand pieces.

Your Green track bully bowlers who perform well in SENA conditions and get thrashed around like a 12 year boy as soon as they arrive in asia won't find any place among the list of greats.

To be honest 'list of greats' is always a subjective opinion. It is like the XIs, some people choose Stuart Macgill over Shane Warne!

And we the SC cricket fans always judge our batsmen from their performances in SENA tours.

 

[maddgenius]

Top 10 Asian fast bowlers( minimum limit-150 test wickets) :-

Wasim, Imran, Waqar

Kapil, Akhtar, Shami, Vaas

Zaheer, Srinath, Amir

Pakistan has 5 names in top 10 while India has 4 and 1 for SL. Once Bumrah gets to 150 test wickets, India will overtake Pakistan with more numbers of fast bowlers in top 10 list.

Top ten list doesn't matter

Top 3 Pakistani pacers >>>>>> rest of the Asian pacers

 

[maddgenius]

Putting the likes of Ishant, Shami, Zaheer and Bumrah in a top 10 list alongside Imran and Wasim is akin to putting Babar, Misbah in a top 10/20 list alongside Sachin and Sunny

 

[Ab Fan]

Putting the likes of Ishant, Shami, Zaheer and Bumrah in a top 10 list alongside Imran and Wasim is akin to putting Babar, Misbah in a top 10/20 list alongside Sachin and Sunny

I have them in tiers, you can see sentences break. Bumrah is not there as 150 test wickets is minimum sample size. Ishant was also a latter inclusion.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Top ten list doesn't matter

Top 3 Pakistani pacers >>>>>> rest of the Asian pacers

not waqar. Defintiely not him. Overrated player. That thread has been visited countless times and he is not a true Great.
That myth has been deconstructed by a Pakistani himself.

You can't average 50 plus vs two top teams and call yourself an ATG.

Applies to all oldie generation of white dominated HOF members.

 

[Junaids]

not waqar. Defintiely not him. Overrated player. That thread has been visited countless times and he is not a true Great.
That myth has been deconstructed by a Pakistani himself.

You can't average 50 plus vs two top teams and call yourself an ATG.

Applies to all oldie generation of white dominated HOF members.

Sorry, that is completely untrue.

The top team was the West Indies, and he averaged 23.32 against them, with 55 wickets in 13 Tests.

The only two teams against whom his average was over 29 were not the top teams - they were Australia (number 3 until 1995) and India (number 5 or 6 during Waqar’s career.

India didn’t play Pakistan between Waqar’s debut when he was probably 22 (but officially 18) and his declining years (in his 30’s and after two sets of spinal fractures). His poorer average against a weak Indian team reflects that he only played against them as a rookie and as a geriatric.

Waqar played three series in Australia: firstly as a rookie, secondly while recovering from spinal fractures and finally as a geriatric reserve.

Waqar is one of the ten greatest pace bowlers of all time, and is the third best Asian quicks after Wasim Akram and Imran Khan.

He is a 85-90/100 level bowler: in comparison Kapil Dev was a 70/100, Bumrah can’t be scored as he has fewer than 100 Test wickets and Shami would be a 45/100 level bowler.

 

[maddgenius]

not waqar. Defintiely not him. Overrated player. That thread has been visited countless times and he is not a true Great.
That myth has been deconstructed by a Pakistani himself.

You can't average 50 plus vs two top teams and call yourself an ATG.

Applies to all oldie generation of white dominated HOF members.

What are you talking about?

Waqar averages 33 against Australia and only played 4 matches against India so small sample size.

By your logic, Dravid isn't an ATG either who averaged under 30 in Sri Lanka against Murali and in South Africa against Donald, Pollock, Steyn and Co. You can't disregard someone based on such a small sample size.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Sorry, that is completely untrue.

The top team was the West Indies, and he averaged 23.32 against them, with 55 wickets in 13 Tests.

The only two teams against whom his average was over 29 were not the top teams - they were Australia (number 3 until 1995) and India (number 5 or 6 during Waqar’s career.

India didn’t play Pakistan between Waqar’s debut when he was probably 22 (but officially 18) and his declining years (in his 30’s and after two sets of spinal fractures). His poorer average against a weak Indian team reflects that he only played against them as a rookie and as a geriatric.

Waqar played three series in Australia: firstly as a rookie, secondly while recovering from spinal fractures and finally as a geriatric reserve.

Waqar is one of the ten greatest pace bowlers of all time, and is the third best Asian quicks after Wasim Akram and Imran Khan.

He is a 85-90/100 level bowler: in comparison Kapil Dev was a 70/100, Bumrah can’t be scored as he has fewer than 100 Test wickets and Shami would be a 45/100 level bowler.

waqar feasted on weak players. It has been prove. His average post 1993 is alarming average for a so called ATG which he isn't in any shape or form.

He was a minnow basher.

76 41 28 27.38

he averages 31 in SENA and it's close to 38.6 if you include india.

Not good enough for ATG status. sorry. just no. He is slightly better than shami who averages 34 in SENA overall.

in India shami has better stats than many ATGs.

if waqar is a 75 which is fair. shami is a 70.

 

[Junaids]

waqar feasted on weak players. It has been prove. His average post 1993 is alarming average for a so called ATG which he isn't in any shape or form.

He was a minnow basher.

76 41 28 27.38

he averages 31 in SENA and it's close to 38.6 if you include india.

Not good enough for ATG status. sorry. just no. He is slightly better than shami who averages 34 in SENA overall.

in India shami has better stats than many ATGs.

if waqar is a 75 which is fair. shami is a 70.

I really enjoy your posts, and I enjoy debating with you.

But I respectfully disagree here.

Some players have a long peak at a fairly high level, like Kapil Dev.

Others have a shorter peak but at a much higher level, like Waqar.

Waqar was an absolute express bowler, comparable to Lee or Shoaib. But injuries and age meant that he was only at his peak from 1990-96.

He had six years at a higher peak than any other bowler in my lifetime apart from Malcolm Marshall. He wasn’t as skilful as Wasim Akram but he was exceptionally quick and devastating.

Like too many Asians from Azhar Ali to Sachin Tendulkar he carried on far too long when an Aussie would have retired by about 1998. And like that pair he tarnished his average and his legacy by carrying on far too long.

By the way, I don’t think you have quite grasped the context of cricket in the 1990’s.

Until 1995, the West Indies were number 1 with Pakistan second and Australia third.

From 1995-99 there was so much matchfixing - look at Pakistan failing to knock off 146 to win a home series v Cronje’s South Africa in 1997 - that nobody could really order the top four of Australia, Pakistan, South Africa and the West Indies.

But Waqar’s relative lack of success against an Indian team that he never played against at his peak is basically meaningless. It’s like judging Azhar Ali’s career by the hopeless failures he now has as an old man every time he leaves Asia.

 

[Slog]

Top 10 Asian fast bowlers( minimum limit-150 test wickets) :-

Wasim, Imran, Waqar

Kapil, Akhtar, Shami, Vaas

Zaheer, Srinath, Amir

Pakistan has 5 names in top 10 while India has 4 and 1 for SL. Once Bumrah gets to 150 test wickets, India will overtake Pakistan with more numbers of fast bowlers in top 10 list.

Bowling existed before 1980 as well.

Fazal Mahmoud and perhaps even Sarfraz nawaz woild Make that list

 

[tyron_woodley]

What are you talking about?

Waqar averages 33 against Australia and only played 4 matches against India so small sample size.

By your logic, Dravid isn't an ATG either who averaged under 30 in Sri Lanka against Murali and in South Africa against Donald, Pollock, Steyn and Co. You can't disregard someone based on such a small sample size.

You mean peak waqar was better than wasim and imran?

I know it's difficult to compare someone who had a shorter yet devastating peak to someone with a much longer prime level but not an absolute peak.

It's like comparing ronadlinho vs messi. I have no doubt ronaldinho was the better player at his absolute peak. However messi had the longer prime and sustained his ability for a much longer period thereby making him a far greater player.

There is a difference between best players and great players. Peak performance wise there are several players who could be up there as the best ever but they would never be considered as a true Great due to a lack of longevity and ability to sustain their peak or even prime forms.

Waqar may have had a devastating peak but he dint quite face the high calibre batsmen of the 90s and post 2000 in his peak. Plus that era was also marred by ball tampering, fixing etc. It's really hard to decipher how he would have fared vs the best at his absolute peak.

Technology was also behind back then. It's much easier to watch tapes, use analytics and other metrics based on visual data to analyze a bowler's strengths and weaknesses. A bowler can be easily figured out in the modern era due to the ultra advanced analytics etc. However that's an entirely different conversation anyway.

imran? sure he is aan ATG
wasim? sure

just not certain about waqar. Is his peak performances enough to warrant the ATG status? I am not sure. His record post 1994 was notably poorer in comparison. It just so happened that the calibre of batsmen started getting better post 1994.

Peak waqar may have troubled anyone but I still think his status is questionable due to a lack of longevity and ability to sustain that peak.

I wish he never got injured. Injuries really suck. In the modern era with modern medical advancements perhaps he would have made a comeback like cummins.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Bowling existed before 1980 as well.

Fazal Mahmoud and perhaps even Sarfraz nawaz woild Make that list

cmon man. before 1980 it was pretty much scrubs or amateurs. Rules were different too.


Post 80s is reasonable even though personally I think era comparisons are pointless. Rules were bowler friendly in 80s and 90s.

post 2004 rules changed yet again with several additions.

 

[Junaids]

You mean peak waqar was better than wasim and imran?

I know it's difficult to compare someone who had a shorter yet devastating peak to someone with a much longer prime level but not an absolute peak.

It's like comparing ronadlinho vs messi. I have no doubt ronaldinho was the better player at his absolute peak. However messi had the longer prime and sustained his ability for a much longer period thereby making him a far greater player.

There is a difference between best players and great players. Peak performance wise there are several players who could be up there as the best ever but they would never be considered as a true Great due to a lack of longevity and ability to sustain their peak or even prime forms.

Waqar may have had a devastating peak but he dint quite face the high calibre batsmen of the 90s and post 2000 in his peak. Plus that era was also marred by ball tampering, fixing etc. It's really hard to decipher how he would have fared vs the best at his absolute peak.

Technology was also behind back then. It's much easier to watch tapes, use analytics and other metrics based on visual data to analyze a bowler's strengths and weaknesses. A bowler can be easily figured out in the modern era due to the ultra advanced analytics etc. However that's an entirely different conversation anyway.

imran? sure he is aan ATG
wasim? sure

just not certain about waqar. Is his peak performances enough to warrant the ATG status? I am not sure. His record post 1994 was notably poorer in comparison. It just so happened that the calibre of batsmen started getting better post 1994.

Peak waqar may have troubled anyone but I still think his status is questionable due to a lack of longevity and ability to sustain that peak.

I wish he never got injured. Injuries really suck. In the modern era with modern medical advancements perhaps he would have made a comeback like cummins.

Yes, at his peak Waqar actually was more devastating than Wasim Akram, very similar to Imran’s peak against India in 82-83.

He was faster than Wasim Akram, basically identical to Lee and Shoaib and Tait in pace. In England if a batsman has his foot broken by a Yorker we still say he has been Waqared.

I would argue that his peak coincided with a very high level of batsmanship.

Martin Crowe and Brian Lara were top, top players, just superb technicians.

Australia has the Waughs, Jones, Taylor et al.

England had Gooch, Stewart, Smith, Atherton and Hick (who on modern tracks and with modern balls and bowlers would be at the same level as Williamson).

I rate Wasim Akram higher because his extra height meant that at times like in the West Indies in 92-93 he didn’t leak runs as fast as Waqar. Waqar took lots of wickets at a great average in that unofficial World Championship series, but conceded runs too fast in a low-scoring series and that was fatal.

But Waqar at his peak was just deadly in every form of the game. I remember six months after his debut in the semi and the final of the Australasia Cup in Sharjah he played alongside Imran and Wasim but took 5-40 and 6-26 - in ODIs!

Peak Shoaib was basically identical but he could only sustain it for 10 overs per day and 20 overs per week.

Peak Waqar did it day in, day out.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Yes, at his peak Waqar actually was more devastating than Wasim Akram, very similar to Imran’s peak against India in 82-83.

He was faster than Wasim Akram, basically identical to Lee and Shoaib and Tait in pace. In England if a batsman has his foot broken by a Yorker we still say he has been Waqared.

I would argue that his peak coincided with a very high level of batsmanship.

Martin Crowe and Brian Lara were top, top players, just superb technicians.

Australia has the Waughs, Jones, Taylor et al.

England had Gooch, Stewart, Smith, Atherton and Hick (who on modern tracks and with modern balls and bowlers would be at the same level as Williamson).

I rate Wasim Akram higher because his extra height meant that at times like in the West Indies in 92-93 he didn’t leak runs as fast as Waqar. Waqar took lots of wickets at a great average in that unofficial World Championship series, but conceded runs too fast in a low-scoring series and that was fatal.

But Waqar at his peak was just deadly in every form of the game. I remember six months after his debut in the semi and the final of the Australasia Cup in Sharjah he played alongside Imran and Wasim but took 5-40 and 6-26 - in ODIs!

Peak Shoaib was basically identical but he could only sustain it for 10 overs per day and 20 overs per week.

Peak Waqar did it day in, day out.

I think waqar may belong to a different category at his peak but overall he wouldn't be an ATG for me personally but each to their own.

At his best perhaps yes. Could be considered in the top 10 best bowlers of all time at his peak? I am not sure but fair enough if people think so.

Btw Devon Malcolm was super fast in the 90s. Watched some old tapes with my dad a while back and boy he was quick

too bad England were trash and always got hammered lol at the time. 5-1 and 3- 1.

You cannot get hammered at home and I believe Malcolm may actually have been the fastest bowler in the 90s. Malcolm was under used and mismanaged. England totally suck at managing mavericks. He could have been a morkel level bowler. He was also mismanaged in odi. Barely played

 

[Junaids]

Malcolm was very quick but couldn’t swing or seam it. So England wasn’t really the right place for him to have his Home Tests!

Waqar was very quick until 1996 but he also swung it very very late.

Basically Imran Khan cloned himself firstly into Waqar, and then again into Shoaib. The three were technically identical, but Imran and Waqar had a bigger heart than Shoaib and wanted to play every game and take every wicket.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bowling existed before 1980 as well.

Fazal Mahmoud and perhaps even Sarfraz nawaz woild Make that list

I have set above a minimum sample size of 150 test wickets which is clearly mentioned as well. Fazal Mahmood played in the 40s-50s era and does not have even 150 wickets to his name. It's a similar case to Vijay Hazare for India who did not played as many tests to be taken into consideration.

Sarfaraz averages almost 33 and has 178 Wickets, Ishant also averages same but has 300 wickets and his second half has been brilliant. I had put Amir earlier but he doesn't have 150 wickets and his average is also in 30s.

 

[Slog]

I have set above a minimum sample size of 150 test wickets which is clearly mentioned as well. Fazal Mahmood played in the 40s-50s era and does not have even 150 wickets to his name. It's a similar case to Vijay Hazare for India who did not played as many tests to be taken into consideration.

Sarfaraz averages almost 33 and has 178 Wickets, Ishant also averages same but has 300 wickets and his second half has been brilliant. I had put Amir earlier but he doesn't have 150 wickets and his average is also in 30s.

150 wickets is an arbitrary qualification tbh.

Zaheer averages worse than Sarfaraz Nawaz so dont get how you are even coming to this if wickets and average is your consideration only and not the performances.

I think you also need to take in impact on the game and country and in that regard Fazal def makes it.

Zaheer is very good but your criterion is very arbitrary and all over the place is what all im saying

if i have to rank, i will go with following:

1. Wasim Akram
2. Imran Khan
3. Waqar Younis
4. Kapi Dev
5. Srinath
6. Vaas
7. Akhtar
8. Asif
9. Shami
10. Fazal Mahmood

 

[Ab Fan]

150 wickets is an arbitrary qualification tbh.

<B>Zaheer averages worse than Sarfaraz Nawaz</B> so dont get how you are even coming to this if wickets and average is your consideration only and not the performances.

I think you also need to take in impact on the game and country and in that regard Fazal def makes it.

Zaheer is very good but your criterion is very arbitrary and all over the place is what all im saying

if i have to rank, i will go with following:

1. Wasim Akram
2. Imran Khan
3. Waqar Younis
4. Kapi Dev
5. Srinath
6. Vaas
7. Akhtar
8. Asif
9. Shami
10. Fazal Mahmood

My post was some days back and although can't remember well but I think I was trying to stick with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] criteria where he was and even now also is questioning bowlers like Ishant and Shami who have got 297 test wickets and 180 wickets and are still playing for their longevity.

Hence, I thought of going with atleast 200 wickets sample but eventually went with 150 wickets because it will be absymal to not consider Shoaib Akhtar in this list who is genuine top 5-6.

Zaheer averages 32 which is same as Nawaz who averages 33 but has got almost 150 more test wickets. He won us a test series in England, was pivotal in World Cup win and his impact is far bigger than Mohammad Asif who got banned due to match fixing and his only legacy is that he troubled a 22 year old de Villiers in conditions conducive to bowling but does not have even 150 test wickets.

You can consider Fazal Mahmood if you want to go that far but its same as considering Vijay Hazare in top 10 batsmen list who was also one of the all time great batsmen in those days. I can't pick Asif because he has himself to blame for all and he ended up with 100 wickets, that is like considering Bumrah in the list as soon as he gets to 100 tests wickets.

On other hand, Zaheer had a major impact in Indian cricket and in our modern era wins.

 

[Junaids]

My post was some days back and although can't remember well but I think I was trying to stick with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] criteria where he was and even now also is questioning bowlers like Ishant and Shami who have got 297 test wickets and 180 wickets and are still playing for their longevity.

Hence, I thought of going with atleast 200 wickets sample but eventually went with 150 wickets because it will be absymal to not consider Shoaib Akhtar in this list who is genuine top 5-6.

Zaheer averages 32 which is same as Nawaz who averages 33 but has got almost 150 more test wickets. He won us a test series in England, was pivotal in World Cup win and his impact is far bigger than Mohammad Asif who got banned due to match fixing and his only legacy is that he troubled a 22 year old de Villiers in conditions conducive to bowling but does not have even 150 test wickets.

You can consider Fazal Mahmood if you want to go that far but its same as considering Vijay Hazare in top 10 batsmen list who was also one of the all time great batsmen in those days. I can't pick Asif because he has himself to blame for all and he ended up with 100 wickets, that is like considering Bumrah in the list as soon as he gets to 100 tests wickets.

On other hand, Zaheer had a major impact in Indian cricket and in our modern era wins.

That’s difficult to defend though, isn’t it?

Zaheer Khan took 311 wickets at 32.94.

But Jacques Kallis took 292 wickets at 32.65.

Plus he also scored 13,000 runs at a significantly better average than Tendulkar! And took 200 catches!

I put Zaheer Khan in that pace bowling category marked “mediocre, but good by Indian standards”.

 

[Junaids]

You can consider Fazal Mahmood if you want to go that far....

On other hand, Zaheer had a major impact in Indian cricket and in our modern era wins.

Funnily enough, in my opinion Fazal Mahmood is the greatest ever Indian pace bowler, as well as being the fifth best Pakistan fast bowler.

He was an Indian until the age of 21, and was selected for India’s 1947-48 tour of Australia.

And his Test average of 24.70 is miles better than Kapil Dev or Srinath or Zaheer. Only Bumrah has a chance to beat it.

That’s the irony of colonial history, isn’t it? The greatest ever Indian captain played for England - Jardine - and the greatest ever Indian pace bowler played for Pakistan!

At least Tendulkar, Kirmani and Prasanna are safe as the greatest ever Indian batsman, keeper and spinner!

 

[tyron_woodley]

150 wickets is an arbitrary qualification tbh.

Zaheer averages worse than Sarfaraz Nawaz so dont get how you are even coming to this if wickets and average is your consideration only and not the performances.

I think you also need to take in impact on the game and country and in that regard Fazal def makes it.

Zaheer is very good but your criterion is very arbitrary and all over the place is what all im saying

if i have to rank, i will go with following:

1. Wasim Akram
2. Imran Khan
3. Waqar Younis
4. Kapi Dev
5. Srinath
6. Vaas
7. Akhtar
8. Asif
9. Shami
10. Fazal Mahmood

kapil 3
shoaib 4
waqar 5
srinath 6.

shami should be above vaas and possibly srinath and akthar when he retires.

bumrah if he returns to his best could be up there with the top3.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Funnily enough, in my opinion Fazal Mahmood is the greatest ever Indian pace bowler, as well as being the fifth best Pakistan fast bowler.

He was an Indian until the age of 21, and was selected for India’s 1947-48 tour of Australia.

And his Test average of 24.70 is miles better than Kapil Dev or Srinath or Zaheer. Only Bumrah has a chance to beat it.

That’s the irony of colonial history, isn’t it? The greatest ever Indian captain played for England - Jardine - and the greatest ever Indian pace bowler played for Pakistan!

At least Tendulkar, Kirmani and Prasanna are safe as the greatest ever Indian batsman, keeper and spinner!

34 tests is just not good enough. I would say atleast 50 but it would be a shame to not include shoaib who was a beast hence above 45 is a minimum.

 

[CobraRules]

That’s difficult to defend though, isn’t it?

Zaheer Khan took 311 wickets at 32.94.

But Jacques Kallis took 292 wickets at 32.65.

Plus he also scored 13,000 runs at a significantly better average than Tendulkar! And took 200 catches!

I put Zaheer Khan in that pace bowling category marked “mediocre, but good by Indian standards”.

Zaheer Khan was an opening bowler with a lot of top and middle order wickers. Kallis had a lot of tail wickets.
I remember seeing a stat, where the batsman averaging against Kallis is around 25 and against Zaheer Khan it is around 33 (A lot of great bowlers had that average around 29)
Zaheer is not mediocre by any standards. His stats took a hit because of no support bowlers and spinners taking tailender wickets.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kapil Dev was not a bowler. He was a bowling line-up in himself. He was the franchise.

He has a 9fer to his name which is a better figure than what Marshal, Lillee, Ambrose, Imran, Botham could ever manage in an inning

 

[Slog]

My post was some days back and although can't remember well but I think I was trying to stick with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] criteria where he was and even now also is questioning bowlers like Ishant and Shami who have got 297 test wickets and 180 wickets and are still playing for their longevity.

Hence, I thought of going with atleast 200 wickets sample but eventually went with 150 wickets because it will be absymal to not consider Shoaib Akhtar in this list who is genuine top 5-6.

Zaheer averages 32 which is same as Nawaz who averages 33 but has got almost 150 more test wickets. He won us a test series in England, was pivotal in World Cup win and his impact is far bigger than Mohammad Asif who got banned due to match fixing and his only legacy is that he troubled a 22 year old de Villiers in conditions conducive to bowling but does not have even 150 test wickets.

You can consider Fazal Mahmood if you want to go that far but its same as considering Vijay Hazare in top 10 batsmen list who was also one of the all time great batsmen in those days. I can't pick Asif because he has himself to blame for all and he ended up with 100 wickets, that is like considering Bumrah in the list as soon as he gets to 100 tests wickets.

On other hand, Zaheer had a major impact in Indian cricket and in our modern era wins.

his legacy is decimating India's best ever batting line up to win a series against them

his legacy is helping Pakistan not lose its first test series to Australia in 15 years

his legacy is contributing massively to away test wins in England, SL and NZ

As far as Fazal is concerned - by default in those days Pakistan and to a lesser extent, India - just did not get enough Tests so I do not think its fair to not give him a pass for that criterion of yours. It wasn't due to poor fitness, loss of form or any other reason which can be blamed on him. He also switched to a new country and missed India's tests otherwise he was at the time the best India-based pacer when he switched

 

[Slog]

Kapil Dev was not a bowler. He was a bowling line-up in himself. He was the franchise.

He has a 9fer to his name which is a better figure than what Marshal, Lillee, Ambrose, Imran, Botham could ever manage in an inning

so does Sarfraz Nawaz but you dont see Pakistani fans jumping up and down in same manner

 

[Ab Fan]

That’s difficult to defend though, isn’t it?

Zaheer Khan took 311 wickets at 32.94.

But Jacques Kallis took 292 wickets at 32.65.

Plus he also scored 13,000 runs at a significantly better average than Tendulkar! And took 200 catches!

I put Zaheer Khan in that pace bowling category marked “mediocre, but good by Indian standards”.

Statistically, even Sir Ravindra Jadeja averages 24 with bowl and took 220 test wickets in comparison to Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Qadir and Yasir Shah, all of which averaging way higher and has about similar range of wickets. So, conclusion is not based on stats and averages, right?

My point was that you don't rate Bumrah and Shami highly because they haven't taken many wickets which is a valid point, although Shami can certainly close in around 300 wickets. But in a similar manner, you can't expect someone like Asif or even Akhtar to be rated on top, isn't it?

Shoaib Akhtar still has a great reputation and legacy and 175 wickets were enough for him to be rated and most Indians do rate him highly.

Fazal Mahmood is a different case, it was long back. He doesn't fulfill my criteria of 150 wickets either.

 

[Bhaijaan]

so does Sarfraz Nawaz but you dont see Pakistani fans jumping up and down in same manner

Because Sarfraz Nawaz does not have 434 test wickets,more than any Pakistani fast or spin bowler ever?

 

[Ab Fan]

his legacy is decimating India's best ever batting line up to win a series against them

his legacy is helping Pakistan not lose its first test series to Australia in 15 years

his legacy is contributing massively to away test wins in England, SL and NZ

As far as Fazal is concerned - by default in those days Pakistan and to a lesser extent, India - just did not get enough Tests so I do not think its fair to not give him a pass for that criterion of yours. It wasn't due to poor fitness, loss of form or any other reason which can be blamed on him. He also switched to a new country and missed India's tests otherwise he was at the time the best India-based pacer when he switched

Only Pakistan fans remember Asif for that. For the rest of the world, he will only be remembered for the match fixing fiasco which ended his career and at that time he had to satisfy with just a little over 100 wickets. 100 wickets are really nothing, he has no legacy in international cricket and has himself to blame for that.

If I include Asif, it will be wrong to not consider Bumrah who is averaging 20 with the bowl in tests and is regarded as the best LOI bowler in the world currently. And honestly, 150 wickets sample makes far more sense to me, it covers most of the part. I would have actually gone with 200 wickets but I didn't wanted Akhtar to get excluded.

 

[tyron_woodley]

dear Lord asif. That fraud is way too overrated here.

He got worked out by trott and eventually his trundling pace would allow teams to work him out comfortably.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Mohammad Shami is also marginally behind Mitchell Starc as the greatest ever fast bowler in world cup history.

Shami dominated 2025, 2019 World cups like not even a lot of the big names did

McGrath mar gaya hai kya

 

[Ab Fan]

dear Lord asif. That fraud is way too overrated here.

He got worked out by trott and eventually his trundling pace would allow teams to work him out comfortably.

Yeah, good that Amir played cricket and ultimately got exposed, otherwise he would have also been great by many over here. Posters here won't rate Bumrah because he has not got a lot of wickets but expect Asif, Gul and Sarfaraz to be mentioned in the list.

 

[Junaids]

Mohammad Shami is also marginally behind Mitchell Starc as the greatest ever fast bowler in world cup history.

Shami dominated 2025, 2019 World cups like not even a lot of the big names did

But neither McGrath nor Shami has ever performed at the business end of a World Cup. Neither has ever taken a five wicket haul in the Semis or Final.

Gary Gilmour took 6-14 in the 1975 Semi-Final and 5-48 in the Final. In an attack alongside Lillee and Thomson.

Gary Gilmour is so far ahead of any other bowler in World Cup history that I doubt that he will ever be caught up.

 

[Rajdeep]

Well i thought about writing a sensible post explaining you that sample size also matters but that won't help.

Averages
In england:

Bhuvneshwar kumar-26
Waqar younis - 28

In south africa
Bhuvneshwar kumar - 20
Waqar younis-29

So basically Waqar was around 80% as good as Bhuvneshwar Kumar. Minus the batting.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] anything on this one? Looks like you intentionally missed this post.

 

[Mueez]

In my opinion, he is really underrated.

Gun bowler.