Was Sachin Tendulkar the ultimate big match player in ODIs?

[RainMan_]

I don’t think that the name Tendulkar needs any more Introduction. He is undoubtedly the greatest batsman to ever walk on a cricket field. But despite having an illustrious career with the bat one particular point has been raised many times as the topic of the discussion, was Tendulkar’s ability to play clutch innings in big matches or under pressure.

Many critiques have often brought up this point to undermine his achievements as a cricketer. But its needless to say that their criticisms were devoid of any fact.

Tendulkar batted 39 times in ODI tournament finals. He scored 1853 runs at an average of 55 with 6 centuries and 10 half centuries. His career average is around 45 in Odis. So, we can see that he averages almost 10 runs more than his usual average in tournament finals. And we all know that tournament final,big match and pressure r almost synonymous.


Now, let's compare this record to his contemporaries who r generally known as better pressure players.

1. Ponting averages 39 in tournament finals which is 3 runs lower than his usual average 42.

2. Well known crisis player Steve wagh averages 27 in tournament finals when his usual average is almost 33.

3. Lara also has a terrible record in tournament finals. He averages only 24 in tournament finals compared to his usual odi batting average of 40.

4. Kallis and Inzamum averages only 19 and 30 respectively in tournament finals with their bats.

Besides this, Tendulkar is often criticized for his failures in two world cup finals. But many ppl conveniently forgets that this same tendulkar averages 77 with the bat in world cup semifinals which is an astonishing 37 runs more than his usual average. Along with this one can add his mind boggling avg of 76 with the bat in ICC champions trophy finals.

Finally, what could be a bigger pressure match than a match against the arch rival in a world cup tournament? He averages 78 with the bat against Pakistan in world cup and has won man of the match award on 3 occasions.

The above stats clearly suggests that as far as playing clutch innings in big matches r concerned he is one of the greatest of all times. Only player who's worthy enough to be compared with the great little master is none other than the great Vivian Richards. Apart from him, Tendulkar dwarfs almost everyone else in this segment.

 

[Rightarmfast]

There never was and never will be someone like Sachin. People often forget that he played, for a majority of his career, in a team which wasnt a world beater unlike some other greats. He often bore the responsibility of the whole team, yet trumped every one.

 

[TM Riddle]

This won't go down well with some people.

 

[Mamoon]

Maybe, but you cannot discount failures in two World Cup Finals. They weren’t just failures - he scored a combined total of 22 runs in the 2003 and 2011 World Cup Finals.

 

[Ab Fan]

The usual borefest...

 

[Mp812]

Maybe, but you cannot discount failures in two World Cup Finals. They weren’t just failures - he scored a combined total of 22 runs in the 2003 and 2011 World Cup Finals.

On a funny note maybe he thought let's give chance to someone new in finals to perform then repented in 2003 final but happy in 2011 final

 

[Sam99]

Maybe, but you cannot discount failures in two World Cup Finals. They weren’t just failures - he scored a combined total of 22 runs in the 2003 and 2011 World Cup Finals.

To reach final you need to perform in whole tournament too which he did by scoring most runs both times in tournaments. Agree final is big but reaching final is as big thing too for me.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Wow the numbers are so good. I believe Sachin Tendulkar gets a lot of unnecessary criticism.

 

[Hitman]

That would be Viv Richards. He has just as good of an average and SR as Sachin in tournament finals, plus he has a century in a WC final among the 3 WC Finals he played.

 

[Dead Ball]

I am sure there are a hundred threads on this already on PP.

The answer is Viv Richards, I don't think Tendulkar is even top 10 when it comes to performing in WC knockouts. Although, his record is respectable .

 

[RainMan_]

I am sure there are a hundred threads on this already on PP.

The answer is Viv Richards, I don't think Tendulkar is even top 10 when it comes to performing in WC knockouts. Although, his record is respectable .

First of all this thread is not about Tendulkar's performance in world cup knockouts, rather his performance in Big matches in general. Obviously the pressure in a world cup knockout match is quite high, but that's not the only criteria to judge a players ability to perform under pressure or perform in big matches.

Secondly i wont even bother to ask u to list out those 10 players whom u consider as better world cup knockout match players than Tendulkar. Obviously u r entitled to have ur own opinion.

 

[RainMan_]

Maybe, but you cannot discount failures in two World Cup Finals. They weren’t just failures - he scored a combined total of 22 runs in the 2003 and 2011 World Cup Finals.

Obviously he failed in those two big matches, no ifs and buts. Perhaps he played two bad shots or got two unplayable deliveries, who knows. That's the life of a batsman.

 

[Rightarmfast]

First of all this thread is not about Tendulkar's performance in world cup knockouts, rather his performance in Big matches in general. Obviously the pressure in a world cup knockout match is quite high, but that's not the only criteria to judge a players ability to perform under pressure or perform in big matches.

Secondly i wont even bother to ask u to list out those 10 players whom u consider as better world cup knockout match players than Tendulkar. Obviously u r entitled to have ur own opinion.

View attachment 83509

Owned!

 

[the_outsider]

I don't think Tendulkar is even top 10 when it comes to performing in WC knockouts. Although, his record is respectable .

At least try to hide your bias, bro.

 

[Dead Ball]

First of all this thread is not about Tendulkar's performance in world cup knockouts, rather his performance in Big matches in general. Obviously the pressure in a world cup knockout match is quite high, but that's not the only criteria to judge a players ability to perform under pressure or perform in big matches.

Secondly i wont even bother to ask u to list out those 10 players whom u consider as better world cup knockout match players than Tendulkar. Obviously u r entitled to have ur own opinion.

View attachment 83509

Jayawardene, Ponting, Gilchrist, Aravinda De Silva, Richards etc. all performed memorable knocks in knockouts. Tendulkar was consistent and made 2-3 fifties (none of them can be said as game changing) but nowhere close to the best in my opinion. A lot more players have had game changing knocks in KO's. And add to that his two finals failures.

As I said before , he was a dependable performer but nothing jaw dropping.

Where he was hands down the second best of all time, was performing in tournament finals. His desert storm innings and the CB series 2008 knock will be remembered for a long time.

 

[Dead Ball]

At least try to hide your bias, bro.

If you have followed any of my posts on this side, you will know that I am a huge Tendulkar fan. Just not a blind one.

To be a top WC knockout performer in a small sample size of 6-7 matches, I feel you need at least one standout knock. Tendulkar had none, he just usually chipped in with handy fifties. Jayawardene, Dhoni, Ponting, Gilchrist, Aravinda De Silva , Viv Richards etc. all had standout knocks.

I guess it depends on person to person though, some people may rate handy fifties more. In such a small sample size, I prefer to judge via impact knocks...

 

[the_outsider]

To be a top WC knockout performer in a small sample size of 6-7 matches, I feel you need at least one standout knock....

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is to see consistency. Tendulkar has more 50+ scores in WC knockouts than any other player.

Would you rather have someone who got a 140 in one match but then underperformed in the other 5 or someone whom you can count on to give you a good start to the innings by scoring a 50+ in four out of 7 innings?

Anyway who are these other 10 batsmen that you think outperform Tendulkar in WC knockouts?

 

[Dead Ball]

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is to see consistency. Tendulkar has more 50+ scores in WC knockouts than any other player.

Would you rather have someone who got a 140 in one match but then underperformed in the other 5 or someone whom you can count on to give you a good start to the innings by scoring a 50+ in four out of 7 innings?

Anyway who are these other 10 batsmen that you think outperform Tendulkar in WC knockouts?

Let me put it to you this way.

In order for anyone to conclude that Tendulkar was even a top 3 WC knockout performer, would mean that he totally dominated those stages of the WC.

I would only suggest that his knock against SL in 1996 was dominant...and even then he got out at a crucial stage in a stupid manner (stumped to a delivery wide leg side)

His knock against Pakistan was extremely scratchy helped but poor Pakistani fielding (not his fault of course, but hardly dominant) and the other 80 odd came against Kenya.

His 50 against Australia was good.

Now compare that to Dhoni's masterclass in chase in 2011 final or Viv's epic knock against England or Steve Waugh's superb knock under severe pressure against an ATG SA attack or Aravinda's all round genius in 1996 WC or Gilchrist's dominance in 2003/2007 WC...and they pale in comparison. Had SRT scored one ATG knock in knockouts and had one more fifty in 7 innings, I would have certainly rated him higher. Because ultimately, for me, there is nothing like a batsman taking over and stamping his name on a crucial high pressure WC knockout match...it's the most thrilling thing I can see an ODI batsman do...and SRT always seemed to fall short.

Although people may value solid consistency more, and I completely get that.

 

[the_outsider]

Let me put it to you this way.

In order for anyone to conclude that Tendulkar was even a top 3 WC knockout performer, would mean that he totally dominated those stages of the WC.

I would only suggest that his knock against SL in 1996 was dominant...and even then he got out at a crucial stage in a stupid manner (stumped to a delivery wide leg side)

His knock against Pakistan was extremely scratchy helped but poor Pakistani fielding (not his fault of course, but hardly dominant) and the other 80 odd came against Kenya.

His 50 against Australia was good.

Now compare that to Dhoni's masterclass in chase in 2011 final or Viv's epic knock against England or Steve Waugh's superb knock under severe pressure against an ATG SA attack or Aravinda's all round genius in 1996 WC or Gilchrist's dominance in 2003/2007 WC...and they pale in comparison. Had SRT scored one ATG knock in knockouts and had one more fifty in 7 innings, I would have certainly rated him higher. Because ultimately, for me, there is nothing like a batsman taking over and stamping his name on a crucial high pressure WC knockout match...it's the most thrilling thing I can see an ODI batsman do...and SRT always seemed to fall short.

Although people may value solid consistency more, and I completely get that.

But you claimed there are at least 10 other batsmen who are better than Tendulkar in knockouts.

You didn't say 10 innings. You said 10 batsmen.

I can understand if you don't think Tendulkar is top 3. But who are these ten batsmen?



PS: Also, it doesn't seem fair to discount Sachin's 80 against Pak because of drop catches and then go on to hype up Waugh's innings against SA which had the most infamous dropped catch in the history of 50 overs cricket.

 

[RainMan_]

Jayawardene, Ponting, Gilchrist, Aravinda De Silva, Richards etc. all performed memorable knocks in knockouts. Tendulkar was consistent and made 2-3 fifties (none of them can be said as game changing) but nowhere close to the best in my opinion. A lot more players have had game changing knocks in KO's. And add to that his two finals failures.

As I said before , he was a dependable performer but nothing jaw dropping.

Where he was hands down the second best of all time, was performing in tournament finals. His desert storm innings and the CB series 2008 knock will be remembered for a long time.

Who told u that none of the innings played by Tendulkar in wc knock outs were game changing knocks? As a matter of fact how would u even decide which one is game changing knock and which one is not, and how is that relevant in judging the quality of players in knock out matches. U can very well score 120 and still get out shined by one of ur teammates.

Let's say, I have scored a 80 ball hundred in a knock out march by batting first. That 80 ball hundred will be considered as a game changing knock jf my bowlers can restrict the opposition. However, according to to ur definition that same 100 will be considered as worthless if opposition wins the match since my 100 will no longer be considered as a game changing one.


Under favourable condition anybody can play a match winning memorable knock, even in knock out matches( just like the way rookie fakhar played in CT). I m pretty sure that in future if conditions favour Rohit he might even hit a double ton in a wc knock out match and go into hiding for the rest of his career.

These once in a blue moon performers can never outshine someone who has consistently performed on knockout stages in the most prestigious tournament of cricket. BTW Tendulkar scored 85 against arch rival Pakistan in 2011 WC semifinal while the second best was 38. That score of 85 proved to be the main difference between two teams.

 

[Dead Ball]

But you claimed there are at least 10 other batsmen who are better than Tendulkar in knockouts.

You didn't say 10 innings. You said 10 batsmen.

I can understand if you don't think Tendulkar is top 3. But who are these ten batsmen?



PS: Also, it doesn't seem fair to discount Sachin's 80 against Pak because of drop catches and then go on to hype up Waugh's innings against SA which had the most infamous dropped catch in the history of 50 overs cricket.

Steve Waugh was not dropped three/four times. Anyone who saw that innings would say it was a scratchy knock. I am not discounting it, but only a fool would watch that knock and conclude that he is one of the greats in knockout matches.

Anyway, here is the list of 10 players who average better than Tendulkar in WC knockouts. This is using only your criteria of consistency.

https://m.crictracker.com/top-10-ba...world-cup-knockout-matches-minimum-5-innings/

 

[Dead Ball]

Who told u that none of the innings played by Tendulkar in wc knock outs were game changing knocks? As a matter of fact how would u even decide which one is game changing knock and which one is not, and how is that relevant in judging the quality of players in knock out matches. U can very well score 120 and still get out shined by one of ur teammates.

Let's say, I have scored a 80 ball hundred in a knock out march by batting first. That 80 ball hundred will be considered as a game changing knock jf my bowlers can restrict the opposition. However, according to to ur definition that same 100 will be considered as worthless if opposition wins the match since my 100 will no longer be considered as a game changing one.


Under favourable condition anybody can play a match winning memorable knock, even in knock out matches( just like the way rookie fakhar played in CT). I m pretty sure that in future if conditions favour Rohit he might even hit a double ton in a wc knock out match and go into hiding for the rest of his career.

These once in a blue moon performers can never outshine someone who has consistently performed on knockout stages in the most prestigious tournament of cricket. BTW Tendulkar scored 85 against arch rival Pakistan in 2011 WC semifinal while the second best was 38. That score of 85 proved to be the main difference between two teams.

Where did I ever mention match winning ? Mahela Jayawardene s knock in 2011 wc final was an out and out game changing knock under pressure and better than any knock SRT has played in a WC knockout, but his bowlers failed on the day.

Sure , his 85 was vital in India winning. But if you're going to conclude on the basis of that scratchy fifty that SRT is one of the best performers in WC knockouts, then I have nothing to say. Each one to his own I guess. If anything, the amount of times he was dropped that day was a good indication that he was batting nervously and not at his best.
Aren't we talking about batsmen who bring out their best in WC knockouts ?

 

[the_outsider]

Anyway, here is the list of 10 players who average better than Tendulkar in WC knockouts. This is using only your criteria of consistency.

https://m.crictracker.com/top-10-ba...world-cup-knockout-matches-minimum-5-innings/

You are contradicting yourself. On one hand you are criticising Tendulkar for not playing any standout knock and only " chipping in with handy fifties" ( your words).

And on the other hand you are furnishing a list with Sanga, Miandad and Waugh with highest scores of 54, 70 and 59, respectively.

You are changing your own criteria.

And a few of these averages are quite inflated with NOs.

For example, looking at Waugh's average of 56 you would think he has dominated WC knockouts when in reality he has scored only 168 runs in 7 matches.

Similar case with Tharanga.

 

[Sidilicious]

Put it this way

How was Tendulkar’s Performance in WC knockouts - Good. Not great.

Look, Tendulkar is one of the greatest performers in WCs. His knock out performance was also very good. But it was not something you would give him extra points. You would neither deduct points. You would call it good, but not one of the best.

There are those who are great ODI players, but fail at the WC. Tendulkar isn’t one of them. For eg. Amal

There are those who are great at the group stage, but are poor in knockouts. Tendulkar isn’t one of those eithers.

Those who are average in WCs group stage, but come in to their own in Knockouts - Can’t think of one. Possibly Dhoni, he just has 1 innings in WCs. SAchin isn’t one of them.

So who is better than SAchin in WCknocnouts - Viv, Ponting, Gilly, Dhoni, Jayawardane, Steve Waugh. Can’t think of many others who have been better than SAchin in knockouts. Definitely not Tharanga and Sanga. But the above ones have significant knocks in WCs that Sachin doesn’t.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Deja vu?

Sachin has been discussed to death lol. But some can't seem to get enough of it.

 

[the_outsider]

So who is better than SAchin in WCknocnouts - Viv, Ponting, Gilly, Dhoni, Jayawardane, Steve Waugh. Can’t think of many others who have been better than SAchin in knockouts. Definitely not Tharanga and Sanga. But the above ones have significant knocks in WCs that Sachin doesn’t.

Sachin's 68 vs SL in '96 and 80 odd against Pakistan in 2011 were significant knocks. In both cases, the next best score was in the 20s.

Sachin's 80 odd against Pakistan, while scratchy, was a match winning innings.

On the other hand, Waugh really only has 1 significant innings in knockouts. But it is remembered more not because of Waugh but because it lead to Australia winning the WC in the next match.

Even Dhoni has only 1 match defining knockout innings. But considering that it in came in the final while chasing, it makes sense to give that extra points.

 

[Dead Ball]

You are contradicting yourself. On one hand you are criticising Tendulkar for not playing any standout knock and only " chipping in with handy fifties" ( your words).

And on the other hand you are furnishing a list with Sanga, Miandad and Waugh with highest scores of 54, 70 and 59, respectively.

You are changing your own criteria.

And a few of these averages are quite inflated with NOs.

For example, looking at Waugh's average of 56 you would think he has dominated WC knockouts when in reality he has scored only 168 runs in 7 matches.

Similar case with Tharanga.

I already mentioned in the post that the list was using your criteria, consistency.

I would not consider averages at all and instead go for impact knocks for such a small sample size, as I mentioned before.

Viv Richards (undisputed king)
Aravinda DeSilva (unbelievable in 1996 knockouts)
Adam Gilchrist
Ricky Ponting
Mahela Jayawardene
Steve Waugh (the match against SA before SF in 1999 was a knockout, and he played an ATG knock)
MS Dhoni (ATG knock in 2011 finals, arguably the most memorable indian ODI knock in history)

This is just of the top of my head...in 1996 Brian Lara played a gem in the quarter final against SA, Steve Smith in 2015 knockouts...etc etc

I would put all these efforts above Tendulkar's in WC knockouts (not one single memorable knock)...6-7 matches is too small a sample size for me compare on averages...I would have used the criteria of consistency had the sample size been 12-13+ matches or something...

I doubt a single non-Indian could name one memorable WC knockout performance by SRT...he just didn't set the stage on fire in WC knockouts. It's like Kallis's entire ODI career...just good numbers but nothing memorable.

 

[Ab Fan]

My list of top 10 greatest ODI batsmen of all time would be:-

Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni
Michael Bevan
Adam Gilchrist
Brian Lara
Saeed Anwar

3 Aus
3 Ind
2 WI
1 SA
1 Pak

Looks fair about to me.

 

[Dead Ball]

My list of top 10 greatest ODI batsmen of all time would be:-

Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni
Michael Bevan
Adam Gilchrist
Brian Lara
Saeed Anwar

3 Aus
3 Ind
2 WI
1 SA
1 Pak

Looks fair about to me.

I would more or less agree with this.

I just think Kohli needs a couple of great knocks in WC Ko's to get ahead of Viv and SRT, he has been poor in that department. A few good knocks in tournament finals would also be great cause his average in finals sits at an embarrassing 20 which doesn't do justice to a player of his stature.

Otherwise he looks set to breach the 50 ODI hundreds barriers which is an insane feat in itself.

 

[BaankeJi]

Pressure games are not only WC knockouts.
There may be games that are inherently pressure games e.g. India vs Pakistan.
Even league games that a team has to win in order to reach next stage are pressure games.
In a bilateral series 5th game is a pressure game if series is tied at 2-2 .
Or if a team is trailing behind by 1-2 in a five game series, then both of the remaining games are pressure matches.

 

[RainMan_]

Where did I ever mention match winning ? Mahela Jayawardene s knock in 2011 wc final was an out and out game changing knock under pressure and better than any knock SRT has played in a WC knockout, but his bowlers failed on the day.

Sure , his 85 was vital in India winning. But if you're going to conclude on the basis of that scratchy fifty that SRT is one of the best performers in WC knockouts, then I have nothing to say. Each one to his own I guess. If anything, the amount of times he was dropped that day was a good indication that he was batting nervously and not at his best.
Aren't we talking about batsmen who bring out their best in WC knockouts ?

I will start my post by answering ur last question. No, we aren't talking about batsmen who plays their most special knocks in WC knock outs, rather we r talking about batsmen who perform consistently in big matches such as wc knock out matches and don't get bogged down or go Into hiding when they r put under pressure or when going gets tough.


If once in a blue moon performance becomes the criteria to judge a players quality whether its in wc knock outs or in any other matches in general then I believe Rohit is already the greatest bilateral loi player of all time since he has 3 game changing double ton under his belt which no other batsman has still managed to surpass and its very unlikely that anyone will be able to surpass it in distant future.

Tendulkar is a great big match player because he consistently performed in big matches. Its not like he scored one big innings in one wc ko match and failed in rest of the tournament. Here u r trying to big up de silva as a great wc performers ( obviously he performed well within his capacity). He has one century in final and one half century in semifinal out of all the knock out matches he played in world Cup.

He does not even have half of the average that Tendulkar has with the bat in world Cup semi finals, but still he is a better wc performer but Sachin isn't. Good logic. Even from top of my head i can mention 3/4 top class innings from Sachin out of the 7 matches he played in wc knock outs. He was the highest scorer in semi final against Pakistan but when this innings was mentioned u brought in some irrelevant argument about drop catches and what not to undermine that innings. U r acting as if the innings played by all the other players in wc knock outs were totally chance less.

Luck plays an important role in cricket. If luck wasn't with Pakistan they wouldn't even manage to win the wc of 92. That does not mean they r inferior to all the other teams who have won the wc. Furthermore, Tendulkar's 80+ against Kenya was another significant knock in wc knock out match along with his 60 plus against lanka on a losing course and 50 plus against Australia in another wc quarterfinal. At least on 4 occasions he was one of the main contributors who helped India to get past that particular knock out stage. If he hadn't played his innings India wouldn't have managed to get to the next round.

But still he's a poor wc performer because he does not have a big 150 in wc knockout under his belt. Wow. Anyway, u r obviously entitled to ur opinion.

 

[mohan11]

Three times he was the highest run scorer in WC, two times man of series. I don't see a comparison.

 

[giri26]

Sachin Was a brilliant player and did very well for India in World Cups and multi-nation tournaments. Just because he failed in 2 WC finals does not mean that he is a bad player. The fact that he was responsible for India getting to 2 finals and one Semi Final should be good enough in my opinion. BC Lara for all the talent he had, never played a WC final, reason? He and his West Indies mates weren't consistent enough to get the team to the finals for the WC. 1996 was their best chance and they collapsed in the semis. So it is important for a player to do well in the league stages of a tournament in a competition like WC. Sachin did that 4 times out of 6 WC's he was part of.

Was brilliant as a 18 year old in 1992 WC
Was India's best batsman in 1996 WC
Was highest run getter in 2003 WC
Was India's highest run getter in 2011 WC.

Not many people have that sort of resume.

 

[Dead Ball]

I will start my post by answering ur last question. No, we aren't talking about batsmen who plays their most special knocks in WC knock outs, rather we r talking about batsmen who perform consistently in big matches such as wc knock out matches and don't get bogged down or go Into hiding when they r put under pressure or when going gets tough.


If once in a blue moon performance becomes the criteria to judge a players quality whether its in wc knock outs or in any other matches in general then I believe Rohit is already the greatest bilateral loi player of all time since he has 3 game changing double ton under his belt which no other batsman has still managed to surpass and its very unlikely that anyone will be able to surpass it in distant future.

Tendulkar is a great big match player because he consistently performed in big matches. Its not like he scored one big innings in one wc ko match and failed in rest of the tournament. Here u r trying to big up de silva as a great wc performers ( obviously he performed well within his capacity). He has one century in final and one half century in semifinal out of all the knock out matches he played in world Cup.

He does not even have half of the average that Tendulkar has with the bat in world Cup semi finals, but still he is a better wc performer but Sachin isn't. Good logic. Even from top of my head i can mention 3/4 top class innings from Sachin out of the 7 matches he played in wc knock outs. He was the highest scorer in semi final against Pakistan but when this innings was mentioned u brought in some irrelevant argument about drop catches and what not to undermine that innings. U r acting as if the innings played by all the other players in wc knock outs were totally chance less.

Luck plays an important role in cricket. If luck wasn't with Pakistan they wouldn't even manage to win the wc of 92. That does not mean they r inferior to all the other teams who have won the wc. Furthermore, Tendulkar's 80+ against Kenya was another significant knock in wc knock out match along with his 60 plus against lanka on a losing course and 50 plus against Australia in another wc quarterfinal. At least on 4 occasions he was one of the main contributors who helped India to get past that particular knock out stage. If he hadn't played his innings India wouldn't have managed to get to the next round.

But still he's a poor wc performer because he does not have a big 150 in wc knockout under his belt. Wow. Anyway, u r obviously entitled to ur opinion.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I mention that he was a poor performer in knockouts. I said he was consistent, but nothing special.

No, they aren't once in a blue moon performances. Every modern batting great of LoI's , Richards, Ponting, Gilchrist, Lara, Dhoni etc. have at least one iconic WC knockout inning....SRT doesn't and that's a miss in his ODI CV for me. It may be okay for you, and that's fine. For me, that doesn't put him in the top tier of performers in WC knockouts. Ironically, this is precisely the reason many downplay ABDV in LOIs..he was very consistent in WC's but never stamped his authority on any WC knockouts.

To SRT's credit, he was easily the most consistent batsmen in WC's over two decades. Second greatest ODI batsman ever for me (for now, Kohli has every chance to surpass him). A run machine who was India's highest run getter in 3 different decades (92,03,11) I don't see that happening ever again. I still feel he must rue missing out an opportunity to score big in 2011 finals. What an occasion it must have been...getting his 100th 100 at home in a WC final to achieve his lifelong dream of winning a WC for his country...I also assume we would have seen a different and more dominant SRT in England/Australia in the subsequent away tours. A dream end to a career...

Oh well...you can't have everything in life..

 

[Dead Ball]

Sachin Was a brilliant player and did very well for India in World Cups and multi-nation tournaments. Just because he failed in 2 WC finals does not mean that he is a bad player. The fact that he was responsible for India getting to 2 finals and one Semi Final should be good enough in my opinion. BC Lara for all the talent he had, never played a WC final, reason? He and his West Indies mates weren't consistent enough to get the team to the finals for the WC. 1996 was their best chance and they collapsed in the semis. So it is important for a player to do well in the league stages of a tournament in a competition like WC. Sachin did that 4 times out of 6 WC's he was part of.

Was brilliant as a 18 year old in 1992 WC
Was India's best batsman in 1996 WC
Was highest run getter in 2003 WC
Was India's highest run getter in 2011 WC.

Not many people have that sort of resume.

Lara performed better in 1996 knockouts that SRT did in 2011. SRT had the team to carry and help win him a WC. Lara didn't.

 

[giri26]

Lara performed better in 1996 knockouts that SRT did in 2011. SRT had the team to carry and help win him a WC. Lara didn't.

Lara had a very good team in the 1996 WC,which is the reason for their Semi-Finals finish. They had a very good team in the 1992 WC as well. Lara himself was in a great position to finish off the game for WI in 1996 semi-final when they were cruising at 93/1. They just needed 43 to win in about 10 overs with 8 wickets in hand.

 

[the_outsider]

I already mentioned in the post that the list was using your criteria, consistency.

I would not consider averages at all and instead go for impact knocks for such a small sample size, as I mentioned before.

Viv Richards (undisputed king)
Aravinda DeSilva (unbelievable in 1996 knockouts)
Adam Gilchrist
Ricky Ponting
Mahela Jayawardene
Steve Waugh (the match against SA before SF in 1999 was a knockout, and he played an ATG knock)
MS Dhoni (ATG knock in 2011 finals, arguably the most memorable indian ODI knock in history)

This is just of the top of my head...in 1996 Brian Lara played a gem in the quarter final against SA, Steve Smith in 2015 knockouts...etc etc

I would put all these efforts above Tendulkar's in WC knockouts (not one single memorable knock)...6-7 matches is too small a sample size for me compare on averages...I would have used the criteria of consistency had the sample size been 12-13+ matches or something...

I doubt a single non-Indian could name one memorable WC knockout performance by SRT...he just didn't set the stage on fire in WC knockouts. It's like Kallis's entire ODI career...just good numbers but nothing memorable.

"Memorable" is a very subjective term. Sachin's 80 against Pak may not be memorable to you. But it's a memorable knock for most Indian fans and supporters.

There is no consistency in your list. You have included Jayawardene's knock even though it didn't win SL the match. And you've included Waugh who barely made 50. And was dropped by the best fielder of the tournament.

But on the other hand you don't think Sachin's knock was memorable.

There is no set criteria or anything for your judgement in this case. It's all over the place. It's simply based on what you consider "memorable" and that is way too subjective to have any relevance to anybody but yourself.

 

[the_outsider]

Also [MENTION=140110]Dead Ball[/MENTION] what you are mentioning innings. A top 10 WC batsman should have more than one innings to warrant that place, don't you think?

 

[Dead Ball]

"Memorable" is a very subjective term. Sachin's 80 against Pak may not be memorable to you. But it's a memorable knock for most Indian fans and supporters.

There is no consistency in your list. You have included Jayawardene's knock even though it didn't win SL the match. And you've included Waugh who barely made 50. And was dropped by the best fielder of the tournament.

But on the other hand you don't think Sachin's knock was memorable.

There is no set criteria or anything for your judgement in this case. It's all over the place. It's simply based on what you consider "memorable" and that is way too subjective to have any relevance to anybody but yourself.

The fact that Dhoni, Ponting, Richards, Aravinda, Gilchrist etc played ATG knocks in knockouts is not a matter of opinion or subjective. I think I have already established my criteria a dozen times on this thread before. I am not looking for consistency over a sample size of 6-7 innings if the batsman has played one special knock.

If Kohli plays one blinder in 2019 or 2023 WC knockouts, I (and I assume most cricket watchers) will forget his past failures in WC knockouts.

 

[Chrish]

Iva richards...

 

[Ab Fan]

I will start my post by answering ur last question. No, we aren't talking about batsmen who plays their most special knocks in WC knock outs, rather we r talking about batsmen who perform consistently in big matches such as wc knock out matches and don't get bogged down or go Into hiding when they r put under pressure or when going gets tough.


If once in a blue moon performance becomes the criteria to judge a players quality whether its in wc knock outs or in any other matches in general then I believe Rohit is already the greatest bilateral loi player of all time since he has 3 game changing double ton under his belt which no other batsman has still managed to surpass and its very unlikely that anyone will be able to surpass it in distant future.

Tendulkar is a great big match player because he consistently performed in big matches. Its not like he scored one big innings in one wc ko match and failed in rest of the tournament. Here u r trying to big up de silva as a great wc performers ( obviously he performed well within his capacity). He has one century in final and one half century in semifinal out of all the knock out matches he played in world Cup.

He does not even have half of the average that Tendulkar has with the bat in world Cup semi finals, but still he is a better wc performer but Sachin isn't. Good logic. Even from top of my head i can mention 3/4 top class innings from Sachin out of the 7 matches he played in wc knock outs. He was the highest scorer in semi final against Pakistan but when this innings was mentioned u brought in some irrelevant argument about drop catches and what not to undermine that innings. U r acting as if the innings played by all the other players in wc knock outs were totally chance less.

Luck plays an important role in cricket. If luck wasn't with Pakistan they wouldn't even manage to win the wc of 92. That does not mean they r inferior to all the other teams who have won the wc. Furthermore, Tendulkar's 80+ against Kenya was another significant knock in wc knock out match along with his 60 plus against lanka on a losing course and 50 plus against Australia in another wc quarterfinal. At least on 4 occasions he was one of the main contributors who helped India to get past that particular knock out stage. If he hadn't played his innings India wouldn't have managed to get to the next round.

But still he's a poor wc performer because he does not have a big 150 in wc knockout under his belt. Wow. Anyway, u r obviously entitled to ur opinion.

Good thread.

Consistent performance in WC > 1 memorable performance + all failures

 

[the_outsider]

The fact that Dhoni, Ponting, Richards, Aravinda, Gilchrist etc played ATG knocks in knockouts is not a matter of opinion or subjective. I think I have already established my criteria a dozen times on this thread before. I am not looking for consistency over a sample size of 6-7 innings if the batsman has played one special knock.

I have no problem with putting Ponting, Gilchrist, Dhoni, Viv and de Silva over Tendulkar. You're right about them.

My disagreement with you was on your claim that Tendulkar doesn't even make it to the top 10. That is simply not true. Your list which included people like Waugh, Sanga and Miandad simply haven't done enough to claim that they have outperformed Sachin.

And FYI, 7 knockout WC matches is quite a large sample size. Just check out how many players have played that many WC knockouts. I would suspect that less than 0.5% of all players have played 5 or more WC knockouts. So consistency does come into play.

 

[the_outsider]

Every modern batting great of LoI's , Richards, Ponting, Gilchrist, Lara, Dhoni etc. have at least one iconic WC knockout inning....SRT doesn't and that's a miss in his ODI CV for me.

He certainly does. His 80 odd against Pak in 2011 is very much an iconic performance. It is immeteral whether he was dropped or not.
The next best score in the innings was 20-something. India would have lost that match without Sachin's innings.

Idk why you are constantly ignoring that innings.

Tendulkar had that tournament defining innings against Pakistan PLUS he has 3 other 50+ scores.

He has consistency as well as a match winning knock.

There is no justification for you to diminish his performance in WC knockouts after that.

 

[MP2011]

IIRC, he also scored a crucial fifty against Aus in QF of WC'11 which I think qualifies as a knockout game, no? Of course, an opener can't be expected to stay till the end of an innings to take his team home. Of course Raina played a very good hand in that game as did Gambhir. But you can't undermine Tendulkar's effort at the top of order to provide India a good start chasing Aus's not imposing but a tough target nonethelss especially in a knockout WC game.

 

[MP2011]

If singehandedly winning a game for his team is the criteria, then go no further than Kapil's 175* in WC'83 which lifted India from the dumps and paved their way to knockouts.

 

[RainMan_]

Good thread.

Consistent performance in WC > 1 memorable performance + all failures

Indeed. Tendulkar performed brilliantly in knockout matches on a consistent basis.

To add to this, personally i believe that every single match in WC has its own significance. As long as the match is not against minnows, most of the players feel more or less same pressure.

I think most of the Indian players would agree with me regarding the fact that a group stage match against Pakistan in a world cup is in no way less significant than a quarterfinal against New-Zealand.

When it comes to performing on a high pressure tournament like World cup, tendulkar is almost unmatched. He has the most runs, most centuries, most half centuries, most runs in a series, match winning knocks against arch rivals. He has it all under his belt.

He's easily one of the greatest world cup players of all time.

 

[Rightarmfast]

If performing in the WC was the sole criteria for being a great player, I would assume ICC would have had their rankings based on WC performance!

 

[big_gamer007]

Sachin is the greatest batsman to have played this game. His only flaw which was not due to his fault was that he was not as mentally strong as someone like Kohli. But when from a very young age you have the burden of 1 billion people and are considered a god one can understand why.

These subjective threads on whether he was greatest chaser, greatest opener, greatest KO player, greatest WC player etc etc are kind of useless threads, End of story is Sachin is the greatest batsmen to have played this game so far.

There might be a player who is ahead of Sachin in one of the stats but as an overall batsmen he wipes the floor with everyone and only one who can reach somewhat close are Lara and Viv.

 

[RainMan_]

Sachin Was a brilliant player and did very well for India in World Cups and multi-nation tournaments. Just because he failed in 2 WC finals does not mean that he is a bad player. The fact that he was responsible for India getting to 2 finals and one Semi Final should be good enough in my opinion. BC Lara for all the talent he had, never played a WC final, reason? He and his West Indies mates weren't consistent enough to get the team to the finals for the WC. 1996 was their best chance and they collapsed in the semis. So it is important for a player to do well in the league stages of a tournament in a competition like WC. Sachin did that 4 times out of 6 WC's he was part of.

Was brilliant as a 18 year old in 1992 WC
Was India's best batsman in 1996 WC
Was highest run getter in 2003 WC
Was India's highest run getter in 2011 WC.

Not many people have that sort of resume.

An excellent post. Every single match in a WC tournament is important.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

I am an Indian but these Tendulkar threads are so boring. It goes for pages after pages of meaningless fights. Tendulkar was an ATG batsman who has retired more than 5 years ago.

Leave him alone

 

[Mute Witness]

I think hundreds are important because hundreds have historically been a big deal, but if without any hundred, significant fifties in WC knockouts are to be considered then it makes more sense if they are in any single tournament rather than spread over five world cups. For example Miandad had match winning fifties in the semi final and final of the 92 world cup thus leading to winning the tournament.

IMHO Clutch performances strung together in a single tournament are almost always more impactful. Arvinda in 1996 is the biggest example. Even Afridi got a couple of consecutive match winning 50s in the 09 WT20 semi final and final. Of course doesn't make him a better player, but Tendulkar becomes a difficult sell as the best under pressure if he wont delivery clutch performances in knockouts.

 

[Hawkeye]

No.

No matter how you try to sugar coat it.

Kohli is far ahead.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

If we go by impact, I"d go with Gilchrist. Knockout games - averaging 50.50 at a strike rate 120 is incredible. Performed in all 3 World Cup finals as well. Most clutch ODI batsman of all time. I know old timers would rate Viv and he may have had greater impact overall as a batsman but Gilly was better for sheer impact!

 

[RainMan_]

Guys pls stick to the topic. This thread isn't about Tendulkar's performance in World Cup knock outs (even though he's one of the greatest world cup performers of all time), rather his performance in big matches in general.

I've seen many people to claim Tendulkar as a self centered player with a chicken heart who has failed to perform in high pressure matches. Even players like Lara, Inzamam, Steve wagh have been claimed as a better big match player when the truth is all of these players r several leagues below the great little master as far as performing in a big match is concerned.

This thread is just an attempt to debunk those false claims and to show others why Tendulkar is one of the greatest big match players of all time.

 

[Ab Fan]

It has been a very poor attempt from some posters in PP to make false claims like Sachin Tendulkar is not a big match player. They just dont believe in consistency.

No wonder fans here consider Afridi an ATG even though he is a mediocre player with a few rare highs.

At the end, consistency is the forte and when we consider that, in World Cups, Sachin Tendulkar was actually an all match, not just big match, player and in same way, another player,AB de Villiers, was also a very good player when it comes to World Cups.

This has been a fantastic thread and I would like to appreciate the OP for trying to debunk those false claims made here. Some posters can surely take a leaf out of this.

 

[Pakhs]

If we go by impact, I"d go with Gilchrist. Knockout games - averaging 50.50 at a strike rate 120 is incredible. Performed in all 3 World Cup finals as well. Most clutch ODI batsman of all time. I know old timers would rate Viv and he may have had greater impact overall as a batsman but Gilly was better for sheer impact!

This is so correct! if cricket was only played in WCs he would be classed ahead of every player to every play the game.

 

[Dead Ball]

It has been a very poor attempt from some posters in PP to make false claims like Sachin Tendulkar is not a big match player. They just dont believe in consistency.

No wonder fans here consider Afridi an ATG even though he is a mediocre player with a few rare highs.

At the end, consistency is the forte and when we consider that, in World Cups, Sachin Tendulkar was actually an all match, not just big match, player and in same way, another player,AB de Villiers, was also a very good player when it comes to World Cups.

This has been a fantastic thread and I would like to appreciate the OP for trying to debunk those false claims made here. Some posters can surely take a leaf out of this.

It's mostly Tendulkar fans getting salty at the drop of a hat, which they usually do.

Nowhere did I claim that he is not a big match player, I mentioned time and again that he had a respectable record in knockouts and the second best in history in tournament finals.

But no, that isn't enough for rabid Sachinistas. Unless you accept that their lord and saviour is the greatest ever at everything, they keep hitting you with all they've got.

In many previous threads, I have actually defended Sachin for having a great record at crunch matches.

Anyways, I am done. Good luck to OP, and I hope it results in a fruitful and friendly discussion . Apologies to anyone who feels I may have digressed.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Many people missing Steve Smith here, just 1 WC but 2 50s and a 100 in 3 innings is as good a start as can be. He scored more runs in the Semifinal than Kohli has in 5 knockout games

 

[Ab Fan]

It's mostly Tendulkar fans getting salty at the drop of a hat, which they usually do.

Nowhere did I claim that he is not a big match player, I mentioned time and again that he had a respectable record in knockouts and the second best in history in tournament finals.

But no, that isn't enough for rabid Sachinistas. Unless you accept that their lord and saviour is the greatest ever at everything, they keep hitting you with all they've got.

In many previous threads, I have actually defended Sachin for having a great record at crunch matches.

Anyways, I am done. Good luck to OP, and I hope it results in a fruitful and friendly discussion . Apologies to anyone who feels I may have digressed.

I wasn't refering to any particular poster regarding this. I just feel posters at time end up doing a bit too much of micro-analysis.

 

[MP2011]

He scored more runs in the Semifinal than Kohli has in 5 knockout games

Might have something to do with his captain winning toss on an absolute docile wicket and that too at home and Smith getting opportunity to set target rather than chasing 330-odd in a WC SF which is next to impossible.

Even though its a matter of conjecture I think had Smith was asked to chase the similar total on same wicket, he too would've been an utter failure. He is nowhere near Kohli in chasing targets and in a WC SF against that kind of mountain, forget it.

 

[MP2011]

Same is true for Tendulkar's 'failure' in WC'03 final. For heaven's sake, he was chasing 360 in a WC final against best ever ODI team that has graced a cricket field and that too in early '00s where ODI scores were not as prolific as they're today, certainly not the chases! If this is nigh possible then I want to know how else do you think would've chased that score!

Tendulkar tried to go after McGrath right from his first over, unluckily for him it didn't work especially with a master at work. There was absolutely no time to get settled with RRR ballooning with each passing over.

And that's why its near imperative to set totals in knockouts, rather than chase them however great chasing team you're. Once you cross 300 in a knockout, it borders on being next to impossible to successfully chase that kind of a score.

 

[MP2011]

In WC'11 final, I agree Tendulkar choked. Could've scored a few more with the kind of form he was in.

 

[FearlessRoar]

While speaking in a video on his YouTube channel, former Pakistan batter Basit Ali told:

"He (Tendulkar) was a top order batter and I was a middle order batter, so we used to see his batting. In our team meetings, our captain at that time Wasim Akram used to say everywhere, even during practice, even during meals, 'dismiss Sachin and we'll win the match'."

"And soon as Sachin used to get out, Pakistan used to win the match. Even though the great Azharuddin was there, but we were not scared of Azharuddin, but definitely scared of Sachin Tendulkar."

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

While speaking in a video on his YouTube channel, former Pakistan batter Basit Ali told:

"He (Tendulkar) was a top order batter and I was a middle order batter, so we used to see his batting. In our team meetings, our captain at that time Wasim Akram used to say everywhere, even during practice, even during meals, 'dismiss Sachin and we'll win the match'."

"And soon as Sachin used to get out, Pakistan used to win the match. Even though the great Azharuddin was there, but we were not scared of Azharuddin, but definitely scared of Sachin Tendulkar."

There will be no cricketer ever, whose wicket would determine the result of the match, the electricity consumption and traffic movement of nearly 1/6th of Humanity.

 

[sweep_shot]

Big match player? That's debatable.

Big matches include knockout games. Was Tendulkar exceptional during knockout games? If I remember correctly, he wasn't.

Tendulkar was mostly good during bilateral games and group stage games.

 

[Hitman]

While speaking in a video on his YouTube channel, former Pakistan batter Basit Ali told:

"He (Tendulkar) was a top order batter and I was a middle order batter, so we used to see his batting. In our team meetings, our captain at that time Wasim Akram used to say everywhere, even during practice, even during meals, 'dismiss Sachin and we'll win the match'."

"And soon as Sachin used to get out, Pakistan used to win the match. Even though the great Azharuddin was there, but we were not scared of Azharuddin, but definitely scared of Sachin Tendulkar."

In other words, sky is blue.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

Big match player? That's debatable.

Big matches include knockout games. Was Tendulkar exceptional during knockout games? If I remember correctly, he wasn't.

Tendulkar was mostly good during bilateral games and group stage games.

This is why it's important to check stats before posting baseless keyboard statements. Tendulkar has an excellent record in knockout matches.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

My list of top 10 greatest ODI batsmen of all time would be:-

Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni
Michael Bevan
Adam Gilchrist
Brian Lara
Saeed Anwar

3 Aus
3 Ind
2 WI
1 SA
1 Pak

Looks fair about to me.

Is there any change in the order now? I'll place Hitman after Ponting.

 

[Ab Fan]

Is there any change in the order now? I'll place Hitman after Ponting.

I'll put him just below Dhoni.

 

[TheSultan]

Is this a joke thread or a meme one?

A metronomic run machine who choked on the biggest stage twice!

Big match player? More like big match bottler!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There will be no cricketer ever, whose wicket would determine the result of the match, the electricity consumption and traffic movement of nearly 1/6th of Humanity.

That says more about the priorities of 1/6 of humanity than it does about the cricketer.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

That says more about the priorities of 1/6 of humanity than it does about the cricketer.

I can comment about other fractions of society about other aspects and it will get me banned, lets keep it cricket focused.
We are on a cricket forum. Venom can be directed towards other stuff.

 

[Ab Fan]

This forum has become a joke due to posts of some trolls over the years but anyways, you can't expect much when that old moderator himself shows up only for trolling and encourages other trolls for posting nonsensical stuffs. The old guy reacts only when any Indian poster shows up the bitter truth. That guy doesn't deserve any bit of respect.

 

[TheSultan]

Same is true for Tendulkar's 'failure' in WC'03 final. For heaven's sake, he was chasing 360 in a WC final against best ever ODI team that has graced a cricket field and that too in early '00s where ODI scores were not as prolific as they're today, certainly not the chases! If this is nigh possible then I want to know how else do you think would've chased that score!

Tendulkar tried to go after McGrath right from his first over, unluckily for him it didn't work especially with a master at work. There was absolutely no time to get settled with RRR ballooning with each passing over.

And that's why its near imperative to set totals in knockouts, rather than chase them however great chasing team you're. Once you cross 300 in a knockout, it borders on being next to impossible to successfully chase that kind of a score.

A choke is a choke is a choke.

Every choke has an excuse, but it’s still a choke.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I can comment about other fractions of society about other aspects and it will get me banned, lets keep it cricket focused.
We are on a cricket forum. Venom can be directed towards other stuff.

No venom intended and not sure why you want to say stuff that can get you banned. You were the one who brought up the population of India

But my point who cares about 1/6 of humanities movement and what is it relevance when it comes to cricketers?

1/6 of humanity probably stopped when Venkatesh Prasad took a wicket too.

 

[TheSultan]

It has been a very poor attempt from some posters in PP to make false claims like Sachin Tendulkar is not a big match player. They just dont believe in consistency.

No wonder fans here consider Afridi an ATG even though he is a mediocre player with a few rare highs.

At the end, consistency is the forte and when we consider that, in World Cups, Sachin Tendulkar was actually an all match, not just big match, player and in same way, another player,AB de Villiers, was also a very good player when it comes to World Cups.

This has been a fantastic thread and I would like to appreciate the OP for trying to debunk those false claims made here. Some posters can surely take a leaf out of this.

You guys need to decide what aspect of sachin’s game you want to argue.

If you want to talk about the sheer weight of his runs, then fine. But don’t be a try-hard about “big match player” - he wasn’t.

Failed in 1996 semi final

Failed in 2003 final

5 chances in a laborious 85 in the 2011 semi final. If you want to celebrate that, then knock yourself out.

Failed in 2011 final.

Just make your mind up and argue your point.

Big Match player - lol

Destructive player - lol

Stylish player - lol

 

[ayemgilani86]

I am sure there are a hundred threads on this already on PP.

The answer is Viv Richards, I don't think Tendulkar is even top 10 when it comes to performing in WC knockouts. Although, his record is respectable .

he was always a choker and stats padder in Test matches, I remember his one final against Zimbabwe and kenya who he tonked and some home tri series final against Aus maybe. But as a non Indian cricket I never feared Tendy like you feared Lara when the odds were against him

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Sachin was a great player but didn't have a big reputation as match winner.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

he was always a choker and stats padder in Test matches, I remember his one final against Zimbabwe and kenya who he tonked and some home tri series final against Aus maybe. But as a non Indian cricket I never feared Tendy like you feared Lara when the odds were against him

Tell that to the Aussies!

 

[Technics 1210]

Simple litmus test on how overrated Tendulkar was - ask his fans to name their most memorable Tendulkar innings - best answers are WC2003 vs Pak and Desert Storm, that’s it. 2 memorable innings in 22 years.

You might get the odd Chennai innings vote, but even then his Golden Duck vs Shoaib was way more memorable!