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England vs Australia | 2nd Ashes Test | Lord's | 21/7/13 | Day 4

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OZGOD said:
LOL I knew Twatto would be out soon.
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There's an inevitability about it. He will hit a few fours and get out lbw.

I think he should bat at #6 away from the new ball, then he can bowl more too.
 
If Aussies had won the first test, the series would have been tight and great to watch. It's all about confidence and now it is very difficult for Aussies to avoid a full zip.
 
Star sports is showing India vs Pak 2003 WC match. Superb match which would be in Indian fans memories for a long long time.
 
At TB I though England were in a tough fight, but AUS have really buckled here.
 
soso_killer said:
How good is Swann just how good is he?

Ok forget Warne, forget Murali.

I'd rate him ahead of Kumble, hell even Saqlain Mushtaq yeah he invented the doosra and was a terrific ODI bowler. But in test Swann makes him bite the dust.

I wont mention Vettori, Harbajhan in the same sentence as him. Ajmal is too dependent on a surface.

Very good is Swann, very good
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lol kumble is far greater than swann will ever be.
 
majiz said:
lol kumble is far greater than swann will ever be.
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kumble was a very good bowler...he was a workhorse.....solid...but wasn't great.....swann is a GREAT bowler....will go down as one of the top 3 or 4 spinners of da last 20 years or so....warne....murali....after dat it has to be swann/ajmal....
 
Was on the cards. Hughes not good enough to cope with these conditions.
 
majiz said:
lol kumble is far greater than swann will ever be.
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Kumble was useless outside Asia, he even has a worst strike than Swann despite Swann playing the vast majority of his game outside the subcontinent which is the best place to bowl for spinners.

Swann averages under 30 strike rate under 60 (thats less than 10 overs). Sorry mate you dont have an argument. Swann is in the top 3 spinners of the last 30 years atleast IMO.
 
I will never understand Hughes coming above Clarke when Swann is on. Clarke is a better player of spin and is a RHB, and so would make it bit more difficult for Swann to get him out. Boof seems like a club level coach. Poor from him
 
Never mind Ashton Agar, who actually looks to have a compact technique and a positive mentality;

How we let Phillip Hughes score an 80 at Trent Bridge is beyond me. He's total rubbish.
 
On the subject of Kumble, remember that he bowled in an era where the lbw rule was different. if he bowled now he would get a lot more wickets outside the SubCon.

Captain Clarke in for a last-ditch defence.
 
bill_123 said:
kumble was a very good bowler...he was a workhorse.....solid...but wasn't great.....swann is a GREAT bowler....will go down as one of the top 3 or 4 spinners of da last 20 years or so....warne....murali....after dat it has to be swann/ajmal....
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he has twice as many test wickets and twice as many five wicket hauls as swann ever will . won far more test matches for his country than swann ever will too. took wickets everywhere too and against every team. swann is a very good bowler but come now...kumble has over 600 test wickets at under 30. not on the same level.
 
soso_killer said:
Kumble was useless outside Asia, he even has a worst strike than Swann despite Swann playing the vast majority of his game outside the subcontinent which is the best place to bowl for spinners.

Swann averages under 30 strike rate under 60 (thats less than 10 overs). Sorry mate you dont have an argument. Swann is in the top 3 spinners of the last 30 years atleast IMO.
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yep kumble was pretty useless outside asia...
 
soso_killer said:
Kumble was useless outside Asia
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completely wrong. ask the aus posters what they think of kumble, i'm sure they'll tell you how much greater than swann he is.

Robert said:
On the subject of Kumble, remember that he bowled in an era where the lbw rule was different. if he bowled now he would get a lot more wickets outside the SubCon.
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ah, this too. he used to smack batsman on the pads all the time.
 
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my love affair with Swann does not revolve around stats which are very good on their own by the way. But revolution.

The amount of revolution he gets on the ball on none responsive turfs is incredible. The way he got the ball to turn in South Africa was brilliant, no one has got the ball to turn like that in this country not even Murali despite his respectable record in SA not on day 1 atleast, bar Warne.

Swann is that good
 
majiz said:
he has twice as many test wickets and twice as many five wicket hauls as swann ever will . won far more test matches for his country than swann ever will too. took wickets everywhere too and against every team. swann is a very good bowler but come now...kumble has over 600 test wickets at under 30. not on the same level.
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lol I respect Kumble but some of your points are ridiculous; of course Kumble has more wickets and fivefers, Kumble always played for India because they had no other bowlers and Swann has played 40% as many Tests as him. If you actually look at it, the only country where Kumble has a really good record is at home in India. Kumble averaged around 40+ with the ball in most countries. Both Swann's average and strike rate on every continent (including Asia!) is better.
 
Swan has been a big difference between both sides , Aussies have lacked a good spin option.
 
majiz said:
completely wrong. ask the aus posters what they think of kumble, i'm sure they'll tell you how much greater than swann he is.
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Probably not, in my experience. Like serious cricket fans they respect Kumble and consider him a fighter, but they'd generally rate Swann higher as an actual bowler.
 
Clarke is an overrated player of spin in my opinion. Should have been stumped already.
He wants to hide at 5, what kind of leader is that?
 
James said:
Probably not, in my experience. Like serious cricket fans they respect Kumble and consider him a fighter, but they'd generally rate Swann higher as an actual bowler.
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yeah cricket watchers in australia totally rate swann over kumble. lol. get real.wow, english delusion.

if you had a spinner with 600 wickets at under 30, well, this wouldn't even be a debate.
 
soso_killer said:
Kumble was useless outside Asia, he even has a worst strike than Swann despite Swann playing the vast majority of his game outside the subcontinent which is the best place to bowl for spinners.

Swann averages under 30 strike rate under 60 (thats less than 10 overs). Sorry mate you dont have an argument. Swann is in the top 3 spinners of the last 30 years atleast IMO.
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Kumble's sample set is huge. There are only 11 spin bowlers who have taken 50 wickets outside Asia in alien conditions since the 80s and it is ridiculous to say that Kumble was useless. Pretty much every spinner was useless, in that case.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Kumble has that average after playing 46 away matches outside Asia, Swann has played only 12 so far.
 
majiz said:
a lot, lot more, at a similar average. which makes him greater.
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Well yer he's played 80 more Tests!! Minimum 20 Tests played has always been the classification, you don't get to demean the achievements of a guy because he happened to 'only' play 50 Tests so far.

Like I said Kumble averages around 40+ with the ball in most countries, this is a fact. He took most of his wickets in India at an average of 24 which is the only reason why his career statistics look world-class.
 
majiz said:
he has twice as many test wickets and twice as many five wicket hauls as swann ever will . won far more test matches for his country than swann ever will too. took wickets everywhere too and against every team. swann is a very good bowler but come now...kumble has over 600 test wickets at under 30. not on the same level.
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on that logic Kallis has almost twice as many runs as Bradman he must be better than him then?
 
aussie team have hit a new low.... they are completely getting outclasses. hard to believe just 5 years ago they were the best.
 
majiz said:
yeah cricket watchers in australia totally rate swann over kumble. lol. get real.wow, english delusion.

if you had a spinner with 600 wickets at under 30, well, this wouldn't even be a debate.
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I'm legally sane rather than delusional.

Just going on the Aussies I've spoken to and know. How many have you spoken to or do you know? Given that your original statement about their views was a wild guess, I imagine very few.
 
James said:
Well yer he's played 80 more Tests!! Minimum 20 Tests played has always been the classification, you don't get to demean the achievements of a guy because he happened to 'only' play 50 Tests so far.

Like I said Kumble averages around 40+ with the ball in most countries, this is a fact. He took most of his wickets in India at an average of 24 which is the only reason why his career statistics look world-class.
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i know he's played 80 more tests, what's your point? that should be something that counts in his favour, not against him. longevity counts for something when discussing greatness you know.
 
Swan is one of the best spinner around, the progression he made from being a bits and pieces county cricketer to a Test Level bowler is outstanding.
 
Gunther said:
I will never understand Hughes coming above Clarke when Swann is on. Clarke is a better player of spin and is a RHB, and so would make it bit more difficult for Swann to get him out. Boof seems like a club level coach. Poor from him
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Boof doesn't set the batting order, Clarke sets the batting order.
 
James said:
Precisely, this guy's argument is hopelessly naive.
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no u.

last time i checked swann didn't have an average that was twice as good as kumble's, rather they are very similar. so that kallis and bradman example falls completely flat. and can you stop being a smartarse plzthx( i know that's difficult for you, but you're in no position to be when arguing in favour of the moronic position that swann is greater than kumble).
 
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IndianWillow said:
Kumble's sample set is huge. There are only 11 spin bowlers who have taken 50 wickets outside Asia in alien conditions since the 80s and it is ridiculous to say that Kumble was useless. Pretty much every spinner was useless, in that case.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Kumble has that average after playing 46 away matches outside Asia, Swann has played only 12 so far.
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thats irrelevant, ok "useless" may have been harsh but averaging 40 is poor any day. We cant use failure of spinners outside Asia as a yardstick anyhow
 
majiz said:
no u.

last time i checked swann didn't have an average that was twice as good as kumble's, rather they are very similar. so that kallis and bradman example falls completely flat. and can you stop being a smartarse plzthx( i know that's difficult for you).
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No his analogy was very valid because you were speaking about wickets in the first instance and not average, so don't change it. Unless you're willing to argue that Kallis is two or three times as good as Bradman mainly by virtue of playing more matches and therefore accumulating more runs, then I'd say you have lost the debate as of right now.
 
majiz said:
he has twice as many test wickets and twice as many five wicket hauls as swann ever will . won far more test matches for his country than swann ever will too. took wickets everywhere too and against every team. swann is a very good bowler but come now...kumble has over 600 test wickets at under 30. not on the same level.
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R u retarded? ....
Course kumble will hav more wickets overall he playd loads of matches

Bt swann even wit leser matches has a big enuf sample size...haa done much much better dan kumble ever did in his career
Ur kumble all he was great at was pickin bucket load of wixkets in india...he did it at 24.....bring hkm to enf aus nz....nd he averages 38....41....40.....he was useless outside asia....go chck his stats perfrmances urself
 
James said:
No his analogy was very valid because you were speaking about wickets in the first instance and not average, so don't change it. Unless you're willing to argue that Kallis is two or three times as good as Bradman mainly by virtue of playing more matches and therefore accumulating more runs, then I'd say you have lost the debate as of right now.
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he is grasping at straws.
 
James said:
No his analogy was very valid because you were speaking about wickets in the first instance and not average, so don't change it. Unless you're willing to argue that Kallis is two or three times as good as Bradman mainly by virtue of playing more matches and therefore accumulating more runs, then I'd say you have lost the debate as of right now.
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what are you talking about? i've been saying all along, at a similar average. although of course i would always take average into account anyway, but it just goes without saying.
 
majiz said:
yeah cricket watchers in australia totally rate swann over kumble. lol. get real.wow, english delusion.

if you had a spinner with 600 wickets at under 30, well, this wouldn't even be a debate.
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Swann as a late bloomer like Ajmal was bound to have a much healthier start over Kumble who made his test debut as an inexperienced young 21 year old.
 
bill_123 said:
R u retarded? ....
Course kumble will hav more wickets overall he playd loads of matches

Bt swann even wit leser matches has a big enuf sample size...haa done much much better dan kumble ever did in his career
Ur kumble all he was great at was pickin bucket load of wixkets in india...he did it at 24.....bring hkm to enf aus nz....nd he averages 38....41....40.....he was useless outside asia....go chck his stats perfrmances urself
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english plz.
 
surely nobody but heavily deluded englishman and anti-indian trolls can actually convince themselves that the irritating and unlikable swann(with a face only a mother could love, by the way), is actually greater than the charismatic, ambassador for the game who took 600 wickets all around the world at under 30.

who is this swann guy anyway? he's just a guy who's been around for a few years and has taken around two hundred wickets. big woop, loads and loads and loads of guys have done that. i don't believe that anybody actually gives two shits about this bowler outside of england.

he's no better than herath.
 
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IndianWillow said:
Swann as a late bloomer like Ajmal was bound to have a much healthier start over Kumble who made his test debut as an inexperienced young 21 year old.
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Dale Steyn had a poor start but averages under 23 today.

But AB de Villiers is my favourite example, he averaged 22 odd in SA and Australia and 33 overall in his 1st 3 years. Today he averages 40 in every country and a better overall than KP despite his good start in international cricket.
So a poor start is not much of an excuse, AB was 20 on his debut by the way
 
Nd majiz he did take 600 sure....bt under 30 arnd da globe hahahaha u troll chck his stats first....he was over 40 most da places outside india
 
soso_killer said:
thats irrelevant, ok "useless" may have been harsh but averaging 40 is poor any day. We cant use failure of spinners outside Asia as a yardstick anyhow
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No one except Murali and Warne have done well outside Asia during the past 30 years. So spinners should be judged only against other spinners, and not against pacers. In that respect, Kumble's figures are quite respectable.

Average of 40 would be acceptable for a spinner on pace friendly tracks because he would not be required to be the spearhead of the attack. If you use four spinners in Australia or SA, chances of getting the opposition bowled for 400 is very remote anyways - what should that tell you? To average 40 is quite difficult for a spinner there.

Since the Indian pacers are generally not so good, Kumble and other spinners have had to take on additional burden on foreign tracks which don't suit them. Swann, on the other hand is definitely enjoying better support from his pacers, that actually makes life easier on him on those wickets. Why, the legendary Abdul Qadir averaged 47 outside home, and still he is widely regarded as one of the best spinners to play the game.
 
majiz said:
surely nobody but heavily deluded englishman and anti-indian trolls can actually convince themselves that the irritating and unlikable swann(with a face only a mother could love, by the way), is actually greater than the charismatic, ambassador for the game who took 600 wickets all around the world at under 30.

who is this swann guy anyway? he's just a guy who's been around for a few years and has taken around two hundred wickets. big woop, loads and loads and loads of guys have done that. i don't believe that anybody actually gives two shits about this bowler outside of england.

he's no better than herath.
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how poor mate. Insults dont help much.

You are a coward, because you need to tell us the bases of your argument. If you say Kumble is better then fine, tell us why though.

Is it the volume of his wickets? Dev has more wickets than Steyn.
Ntini has more wickets than Donald. So that side of argument is not really smart.

Tell us why, dont tell me about "charisma" that does not translate to anything. I've even come up with stats to back my argument, not that i need them anyway.

So tell me why is Kumble better than Swann
 
majiz said:
surely nobody but heavily deluded englishman and anti-indian trolls can actually convince themselves that the irritating and unlikable swann(with a face only a mother could love, by the way), is actually greater than the charismatic, ambassador for the game who took 600 wickets all around the world at under 30.
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English, Saffers, Lankans and Aussies don't rate Kumble because he didn't do much in their countries. Average 37 abroad overall. He was another example of an Indian home-track bully.

Swann on the other hand averages 28 home and away. The only place he hasn't delivered yet is Australia, which is traditionally a graveyard for offies.
 
Guys, start a kumble-swann thread . Let us not derail the match thread .
 
IndianWillow said:
No one except Murali and Warne have done well outside Asia during the past 30 years. So spinners should be judged only against other spinners, and not against pacers. In that respect, Kumble's figures are quite respectable.

Average of 40 would be acceptable for a spinner on pace friendly tracks because he would not be required to be the spearhead of the attack. If you use four spinners in Australia or SA, chances of getting the opposition bowled for 400 is very remote anyways - what should that tell you? To average 40 is quite difficult for a spinner there.

Since the Indian pacers are generally not so good, Kumble and other spinners have had to take on additional burden on foreign tracks which don't suit them. Swann, on the other hand is definitely enjoying better support from his pacers, that actually makes life easier on him on those wickets. Why, the legendary Abdul Qadir averaged 47 outside home, and still he is widely regarded as one of the best spinners to play the game.
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again i refuse to accept failure or mediocrity.

Because on that logic an average of 35 for a batsman in South Africa would be acceptable. Which should not be the case at all internationally.

Only two batsmen who have played 12 innings in SA average 50, and maybe 8 average 40+ (i dont have stats now) but i'm sure its not more than 10. Of those 8 i think half average 45+.

Now the sample is large enough, on your logic we would have to adjust expectations to 35. That unacceptable.
 
majiz said:
surely nobody but heavily deluded englishman and anti-indian trolls can actually convince themselves that the irritating and unlikable swann(with a face only a mother could love, by the way), is actually greater than the charismatic, ambassador for the game who took 600 wickets all around the world at under 30.

who is this swann guy anyway? he's just a guy who's been around for a few years and has taken around two hundred wickets. big woop, loads and loads and loads of guys have done that. i don't believe that anybody actually gives two shits about this bowler outside of england.

he's no better than herath.
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What's wrong with you? Why do you care how he looks?

Cricket is about stats and try to bring up something reasonable to argue.

About the argument, may I add that Kimble has been touted as one of the best against tail-enders. Which basically means he takes loads of lower order wickets.

But IMO, I don't think Swann played enough matches to be compared to Kumble. Swann needs atleast two thirds of Kumble's wickets or matches first.

If Swann continues the way he performs now he'll definitely leap over Kumble (but still will be debatable just because of the amounts of wickets he has) after 3-4 years.
 
soso_killer said:
how poor mate. Insults dont help much.

You are a coward, because you need to tell us the bases of your argument. If you say Kumble is better then fine, tell us why though.

Is it the volume of his wickets? Dev has more wickets than Steyn.
Ntini has more wickets than Donald. So that side of argument is not really smart.

Tell us why, dont tell me about "charisma" that does not translate to anything. I've even come up with stats to back my argument, not that i need them anyway.

So tell me why is Kumble better than Swann
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it's the sheer number of wickets in comparison to swann, at a similar average, that makes him greater. he's just far closer to a legend than swann ever will be, a far greater sportsman.
i browse tennis forums a lot at when it comes to discussing greatness of tennis players the total number of grand slams means an awful lot, perhaps more than anything. longevity and thus legacy, or impact, means a lot. as should number of runs or wickets in cricket. and when it's this many more. well.....

Robert said:
English, Saffers, Lankans and Aussies don't rate Kumble because he didn't do much in their countries. Average 37 abroad overall. He was another example of an Indian home-track bully.

Swann on the other hand averages 28 home and away. The only place he hasn't delivered yet is Australia, which is traditionally a graveyard for offies.
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aussies do rate kumble though, certainly over swann anyway (i'm literally going to pm all the aussie posters and ask them). saffers havn't got a clue about spin bowlers so i don't care what they think. although even herath has probably done better against SA than swann. and kumble didn't do that badly in england.

but it just doesn't matter that much! exact whereabouts of success or victory isn't always that important. going back to tennis, federer never beat nadal at wimbledon, and nadal won wimbedledon twice. but federer is far greater than nadal because he has a far higher number of grand slams. it counts!
 
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