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England vs Australia | 2nd Ashes Test | Lord's | 21/7/13 | Day 4

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Bresnan needs to wheel away at one end. Jimmy can have some rest and only intervene if Cook feels the need for it.
 
Robert said:
English, Saffers, Lankans and Aussies don't rate Kumble because he didn't do much in their countries. Average 37 abroad overall. He was another example of an Indian home-track bully.

Swann on the other hand averages 28 home and away. The only place he hasn't delivered yet is Australia, which is traditionally a graveyard for offies.
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Prasanna was one of the few exceptions, he did exceedingly well there in the series in 1968, took 25 wickets in four test series. This may be highest for an offie in Australia. Ian Chappell during this time rated him as the best spinner in the world.

Regarding Kumble, he developed better variations during his second stage of his career. He did not have googly in his initial stages of his career but developed in the second part of his career and slowed his speed considerably during the early 2000s. His stats outside Asia improved a bit after he learned a bit of variations apart from his regular top spinner. He did reasonably well in Australia in 2003-04. Though he did not have great spinning ability but was a real fighter who played hard and bowled relentlessly, and played great part in Indian wins.

Personally, I think Swann is a better spin bowler than Kumble. Swann is a classical bowler who relies on more orthodox ways like flight, and subtle spin. A very good bowler to watch.
 
previous over : Swann to Khawaja, 1 run, fuller and driven to mid-off for a quick single...and Khawaja has taken out Swann as he charges through.

....that looked serious .
 
majiz said:
bawwwww cry more.

swann is one ugly mofo and i'll say that if i want.
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lol you're the one crying here like a baby to show your side of the argument because no one is listening to your BS.

Get out of your hole, the world has moved on. Nobody cares how other people looks.
 
rooster said:
lol you're the one crying here like a baby to show your side of the argument because no one is listening to your BS.

Get out of your hole, the world has moved on. Nobody cares how other people looks.
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i'm arguing bs because i'm arguing that kumble is greater than swann? wow, just wow.
 
Clarke should take attack to Swann. He has the game and here he has nothing to lose. Just go and whack Swann out of attack.
 
majiz said:
it's the sheer number of wickets in comparison to swann, at a similar average, that makes him greater. he's just far closer to a legend than swann ever will be, a far greater sportsman.
i browse tennis forums a lot at when it comes to discussing greatness of tennis players the total number of grand slams means an awful lot, perhaps more than anything. longevity and thus legacy, or impact, means a lot. as should number of runs or wickets in cricket. and when it's this many more. well.....


aussies do rate kumble though, certainly over swann anyway (i'm literally going to pm all the aussie posters and ask them). saffers havn't got a clue about spin bowlers so i don't care what they think. although even herath has probably done better against SA than swann. and kumble didn't do that badly in england.

but it just doesn't matter that much! exact whereabouts of success or victory isn't always that important. going back to tennis, federer never beat nadal at wimbledon, and nadal won wimbedledon twice. but federer is far greater than nadal because he has a far higher number of grand slams. it counts!
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Afridi has more ODI wickets than Warne by the way
 
England need to cut off these runs. Swann hasn't bowled one full over at Khwaja yet.
 
what's an ODI?

^but thank you for quoting my post ;), i was worried it might have got lost as it was towards the ends of the page.
 
in last 5 overs after lunch 27 runs were scored. Suddenly ,pressure seems to have eased .
 
soso_killer said:
what a joke Herath averages 40 outside Sri Lanka
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bleh, again, cricket fans are too obsessed with this. i don't really care, he hasn't toured outside sri lanka much, and i remember he took a decent number of wickets in Aus and SA last time he was there, and he's been improving. and i'm joking slightly anyway, swann probably is a bit greater than herath, but not by much atm, as the stats show.

this isn't the argument.
 
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soso_killer said:
again i refuse to accept failure or mediocrity.

Because on that logic an average of 35 for a batsman in South Africa would be acceptable. Which should not be the case at all internationally.

Only two batsmen who have played 12 innings in SA average 50, and maybe 8 average 40+ (i dont have stats now) but i'm sure its not more than 10. Of those 8 i think half average 45+.

Now the sample is large enough, on your logic we would have to adjust expectations to 35. That unacceptable.
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If you are a top order batsman and you average 35, that is bad because tail enders don't contribute much. If your team's top order batsmen average 35, your team is unlikely to get even 250 while batting, that is why it is bad. But 35 would be a good average for a no 7 or no 8 batsman.

A spinner on pace friendly tracks is more like a tail ender batsman and certainly 35 would be a good average for him! And a spinner will do better on such wickets only if pressure is kept up by the pacers, and Indian spinners do not have much luxury in this department.
 
Well majiz has really shown his true colours here. As his premises and opinions get repeatedly taken apart and nobody including Indian posters agree with him he resorts to cheap shots, insults and the typical 'I don't care what x/y thinks or about x/y situation'. Not somebody worth the time or effort.
 
majiz said:
bleh, again, cricket fans are too obsessed with this. i don't really care, he hasn't toured outside sri lanka much, and i remember he took a decent number of wickets in Aus and SA last time he was there, and he's been improving. and i'm joking slightly anyway, swann probably is a bit greater than herath, but not by much atm, as the stats show.

this isn't the argument.
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he was useless in SA 9 of his 10 wickets came in Durban, and to be fair SA played poorly he did not offer much turn, not the turn that Swann got anyhow. Swann got more turn in Pretoria than Herath got in Durban.

(and this discussion is over, you just made me miss a jaffer from Swann)
 
IndianWillow said:
If you are a top order batsman and you average 35, that is bad because tail enders don't contribute much. If your team's top order batsmen average 35, your team is unlikely to get even 250 while batting, that is why it is bad. But 35 would be a good average for a no 7 or no 8 batsman.

A spinner on pace friendly tracks is more like a tail ender batsman and certainly 35 would be a good average for him! And a spinner will do better on such wickets only if pressure is kept up by the pacers, and Indian spinners do not have much luxury in this department.
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An average of 40 is poor whatever spin you want to put in. (no pun intended)

(to you too this discussion is over)
 
lots of people are trying to mock me for thinking that kumble is closer to a legend of the game than swann.

really quite a bizarre forum this it seems.
 
I remember Australia trying to win a test in Cape Town it was very overcast. The quicks were not allowed to bowl or else the umpires were gonna offer the lights.

We were never gonna win that game, watching Warne bowl over after over with 20 men around the bat was amazing.
Swann has rekindled those memories, have not felt this excited watching spin bowling outside Asia in a long while
 
pre-lunch 48 in 22 overs & since then , 43 runs in 12 overs . good contest . i think tea time score would be around 150 for 4 . Jimmy back .
 
That missed stumping might prove to be a bigger headache than England thought . 95 for 3 .
 
Kumble was a fighter and did struggle a lot for his team, but in pure bowling ability, Swann over Kumble any day.
 
That is what spinners need. A good total to defend. Swann is bowling well and should take at least 5 wickets here. Anything less, will be disappointing.
 
soso_killer said:
An average of 40 is poor whatever spin you want to put in. (no pun intended)

(to you too this discussion is over)
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40 is probably poor.

35 isn't. Kumble averages 34 outside Asia not 40. And he is 6th in the all time list of bowlers in that category in terms of average since 1980, assuming a minimum qualification of 50 wickets. If that is poor, so be it, because almost every spinner who has ever bowled is going to be labelled poor as per your definition.
 
Jimmy not swinging it . Off topic , why do i feel Cook looks a bit like Princess Di :)
 
I know people are quick to say how comfortable these two look, but there's always going to be a partnership at some point. In these conditions a wicket is always just around the corner.
 
Once that wicket falls Australia will collapse, in a way it feels like they are 9 down and you need that one frustrating break through to win a match
 
James said:
I know people are quick to say how comfortable these two look, but there's always going to be a partnership at some point. In these conditions a wicket is always just around the corner.
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you refer to the turn available ?
 
cricketfanfirst said:
Ifs and buts are part of the game man. He still has plenty of time and wickets to knock off. I think he will get there in this test.
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i'm frustrated coz i will miss his spell over the next hour, i'll be watching Chelsea (which start now). This game would be half way done if that stumping was not missed
 
That stumping has really messed things up . except Swann , no one looks like getting a wicket .
 
Ims1 said:
That stumping has really messed things up . except Swann , no one looks like getting a wicket .
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Really poor series for Prior so far. With bat and gloves. His first in a long while though, to be fair to him.
 
James said:
Yeah. Uneven bounce for the seamers too.
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Saw 2 from bressie which reared up . Still disappointed Cook wasted 6 overs of grey overcast skies today . A great skipper has to be ruthless .
 
Ims1 said:
Saw 2 from bressie which reared up . Still disappointed Cook wasted 6 overs of grey overcast skies today . A great skipper has to be ruthless .
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As we suspected, batting on was definitely a mistake.
 
All they need is one. Rest will fall like nine pins. Preferred is Pup. But even Uzi will do.
 
42 overs left in the day . how many wickets from here ? 2 or 3 ?
 
really look like england wanna win this match on day 5 ...Alot money involved I think its the reason
 
England trying to thief out Khawaja but the ball missed by a mile
 
First goal, bat till tea. Next goal, bat till stumps. Don't think further than that.
 
Root is looking like he'll a handy partnership breaker for us down the line. It's the enthusiasm.
 
The first one was a bit lucky, but what a lovely classic offspinner's delivery that one was! Clarke and Khawaja in back-to-back overs.

Root has MotM sewn up, trying to steal the limelight from Swanny!

Let's have spin at both ends for a while and end this match.
 
leatherface58 said:
Well they need him. They don't have even FTBs who can last on wickets. Besides what's wrong in being an FTB not that I think Clarke is one? It's treated like a stigma here.
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have a look at his record outside the concrete slabs of Australia
 
Honestly why do they review things as blatant as that? Tools.
 
This is why Monty and Swann should be in every team vs Australia. Would spin circles around their utter incompetence.
 
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