What's new

Hashim Amla vs Virat Kohli in ODIs

sensible-indian-fan said:
Mods, please don't bin this thread. Its not a troll thread.

There is a war brewing between 2 sets of supporters and its taking place in several threads right now. I think it would be better to have an official platform for these discussions.

Makes it more fun.

Plus a lot of other threads may be spared from these discussions.

A summary for those who are not fully aware of the Amla brigade vs Kohli brigade war:

1. Those who consider Kohli as a superior ODI batsman compared to Amla are part of the Kohli brigade while those who consider Amla to be the superior ODI batsman are part of the Amla brigade.

2. Kohli brigade feels that Amla is a one dimensional player who doesn't do well in pressure situations while Amla brigade feels that Kohli is a bunny against genuine swing and doesn't have well rounded ODI records like Amla.

3. Kohli brigade feels that intense support for Amla among certain countrymen is heavily influenced by religion while Amla brigade feels that Kohli brigade unnecessarily bring up these topics to have a go at them.

4. Kohli brigade feels that Amla is inferior due to his inability to play in pressure situations and his inability to be his sublime self when chasing in pressure situations. Amla brigade on the other hand feels that Kohli's ability simply gets overrated because some people rate chasing better than setting (note: Kohli is outrageously good in chasing targets like Amla is in setting targets).

So that's the situation as of now.

Let the discussions (and war) begin.
Click to expand...

So the thread created gets shifted here.

:facepalm:
 
IndianWillow said:
Viswanath played at a time when we had specialist openers in Gavaskar, Chauhan, Srikkanth, Sidhu, Gaekwad etc. In the 90s India played with makeshift openers very often - like Ramesh, Das, Raman, Rathour, even Prabhakar and Mongia. Tendulkar had plenty of opportunity to make a statement on occasions at #3 during the 90s, but he never did.
Click to expand...

Gundappa Vishwanath made his debut in 1969, and retired in 1983. Srikkanth made his debut in 1981, Siddhu in 1983. Please check your facts.

BTW, Vishy batted at #3 in merely 4 Test matches.

Link - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rt;template=results;type=batting;view=innings
 
IndianWillow said:
Sehwag averages 27@90 in SA. Dravid averages 44@65 in SA. Sehwag has four fifties in 22 games in SA, two against Kenya. Dravid has ten fifties in SA, seven against SA!

So it has to be Dravid. Sehwag will probably get a quick 25 or something on average (Sehwag may get a quickfire 50 once in a bluemoon though) and that will not of much use chasing 300. With Dravid I may expect a 50 on average, a much better prospect chasing 300.
Click to expand...

Yes, and X@Y figures, Y doesn't matter at all. You are implying Dravid's average would remain same if he had opened and his SR would increase ? If his SR didn't increase, we would have a mind boggling RR in the first 15 overs.
 
tempus123 said:
Yes, and X@Y figures, Y doesn't matter at all. You are implying Dravid's average would remain same if he had opened and his SR would increase ? If his SR didn't increase, we would have a mind boggling RR in the first 15 overs.
Click to expand...

The guy is simply a big Dravid fan, that's it. He has always tried his best to prove that Dravid is better than any other Indian batsman. But to his credit, unlike other Dravid fans he doesn't feel the need to make fun of Sachin or accuse him of nonsensical accusations in order to prove Dravid is better. Most Dravid fans (the annoying ones), when can't compete with facts and figures, start accusing Sachin of being a choker, selfish and what not, nevermind neither one of them can prove it.
 
Hitman said:
The guy is simply a big Dravid fan, that's it. He has always tried his best to prove that Dravid is better than any other Indian batsman. But to his credit, unlike other Dravid fans he doesn't feel the need to make fun of Sachin or accuse him of nonsensical accusations in order to prove Dravid is better. Most Dravid fans (the annoying ones), when can't compete with facts and figures, start accusing Sachin of being a choker, selfish and what not, nevermind neither one of them can prove it.
Click to expand...

Most people would tell you its more of a Tendulkar fans quality . Its not Dravid fans who abused Sharapova recently lol
 
jusarrived said:
Most people would tell you its more of a Tendulkar fans quality . Its not Dravid fans who abused Sharapova recently lol
Click to expand...

Really? Do you see Sachin's fans abusing Dravid when an article on Dravid comes up? Most of them aren't even bothered. But the moment an article on Sachin comes up you see fans of other cricketers jumping in abusing him and calling him all sorts of names.

What's true is that Sachin's fans are extremely sensitive and can't take any criticism of their hero.
 
tempus123 said:
Are you aware of the accusatory term "Hiding in the middle order" used against a top batsman who plays 5 or lower in ODIs ?
Click to expand...

Get your facts right. That term is used in test cricket. If opening is such a difficult job then why Rohit sharma is opening for us?? Because even our management know opening is easy.
 
Rohit sharma in middle order and Rohit sharma as opener,just show opening now-a-days has become a piece of cake. sorry amla fans your beloved player may be the best in the world as opener, but he is doing the easiest job.
 
Most elevens by Cricket greats would prefer Kohli over Amla, 9/10 times. Has to be for a reason. :)
 
Enforcer said:
Get your facts right. That term is used in test cricket. If opening is such a difficult job then why Rohit sharma is opening for us?? Because even our management know opening is easy.
Click to expand...

There are many counter-example to this, where a player from middle order failed in opening. Rohit Sharma example proves nothing.
 
Enforcer said:
Get your facts right. That term is used in test cricket. If opening is such a difficult job then why Rohit sharma is opening for us?? Because even our management know opening is easy.
Click to expand...

You probably don't hear past players talking about ODI cricket much.
 
Enforcer said:
Rohit sharma in middle order and Rohit sharma as opener,just show opening now-a-days has become a piece of cake. sorry amla fans your beloved player may be the best in the world as opener, but he is doing the easiest job.
Click to expand...

yes, a job which requires you to score at 85+ SR and 40+ average is the easiest job in cricket.
 
tempus123 said:
yes, a job which requires you to score at 85+ SR and 40+ average is the easiest job in cricket.
Click to expand...

The highest average of any opener outside of Indians/Amla against top 7 teams in the last 5 years is 43. So much for being the easiest job.
 
Buffet said:
The highest average of any opener outside of Indians/Amla against top 7 teams in the last 5 years is 43. So much for being the easiest job.
Click to expand...

All the openers worldwide are rubbish, and hence they can't do such an easy job.
 
India never had problems in finding openers who can average 40+ and s/r - 85+ first sachin, then gambhir now Dhawan. Infact Rohit sharma as an opener averages 40+. For Australia Finch is almost getting there with avg 39, and s/r - 87.
 
Enforcer said:
India never had problems in finding openers who can average 40+ and s/r - 85+ first sachin, then gambhir now Dhawan. Infact Rohit sharma as an opener averages 40+. For Australia Finch is almost getting there with avg 39, and s/r - 87.
Click to expand...

Can you replace Finch with Smith/Bailley/Maxwell ?
 
tempus123 said:
True, I suppose none of the openers in world cricket currently is falling short on it ?
Click to expand...

Those countries who falling short on it, ensures that they have players with much better strike rate UPfront. Actually you don't need a technically correct player as opener like Amla. Now-a-days Averages of openers doesn't matter,strike rate is. If someone can give you blistering start that is all what required.
 
Enforcer said:
Those countries who falling short on it, ensures that they have players with much better strike rate UPfront. Actually you don't need a technically correct player as opener like Amla. Now-a-days Averages of openers doesn't matter,strike rate is. If someone can give you blistering start that is all what required.
Click to expand...

So someone who can provide blistering start as well as average must be worth his weight in gold.
 
tempus123 said:
Can you replace Finch with Smith/Bailley/Maxwell ?
Click to expand...

Ofcourse. You don't need great averages as an opener, strike rates of opener is all that reqired.Now-a-days, Average of 35+ is still excellent if you strike rate can be 100+.
 
Enforcer said:
Ofcourse. You don't need great averages as an opener, strike rates of opener is all that reqired.Now-a-days, Average of 35+ is still excellent if you strike rate can be 100+.
Click to expand...

So why doesn't Australia rotate and play any of them as openers ? Why does it stick with Finch all the time, if it is so easy to replace him and anybody can do that job.. seriously you are just going on and on about digging a hole.
 
tempus123 said:
So someone who can provide blistering start as well as average must be worth his weight in gold.
Click to expand...

No not required, if you have a clutch middle order and excellent finishers, even any decent opener with excellent strike rate can do the job.pitches are way too flat now-a-days.
 
In a way, Amla is worthless anywhere else so they are trying him as opener.. he is not doing anything special.. anyone in SA team can do what he does also.. Miller/Duminy/DuPlessis all can replace him as opener and do as good a job as he does.
 
tempus123 said:
So why doesn't Australia rotate and play any of them as openers ? Why does it stick with Finch all the time, if it is so easy to replace him and anybody can do that job.. seriously you are just going on and on about digging a hole.
Click to expand...

Why fix if it is not broken. Finch is doing a fine job for them.
 
Enforcer said:
Why fix if it is not broken. Finch is doing a fine job for them.
Click to expand...

Surely having different players open the innings will confuse the opposition if we are going to get same number of runs everytime.. it's better to rotate and keep the opposition guessing.
 
tempus123 said:
In a way, Amla is worthless anywhere else so they are trying him as opener.. he is not doing anything special.. anyone in SA team can do what he does also.. Miller/Duminy/DuPlessis all can replace him as opener and do as good a job as he does.
Click to expand...

Have i said that. I always regarded Amla as one of the greatest opener ever, stats shows it. But now game have changed, a team can still win having a decent opener. Honestly who you feel, SA will miss more, AMLA or DE-villers after their retirement.
 
tempus123 said:
Surely having different players open the innings will confuse the opposition if we are going to get same number of runs everytime.. it's better to rotate and keep the opposition guessing.
Click to expand...

NO not always, can you expect finch will be a better finisher than maxwell. There is a more possibility of maxwell doing a fine job as an opener than finch doing a fine job as a finisher
 
Enforcer said:
NO not always, can you expect finch will be a better finisher than maxwell. There is a more possibility of maxwell doing a fine job as an opener than finch doing a fine job as a finisher
Click to expand...

So Finch is kept as opener just because he would be poor downstream ? good one. You win.
 
Dhoni in his 1st match as an opener produced 91 runs. Rohit now a much better player as an opener. sarfaraz Ahmed played some really good knocks as an opener, but struggling as a finisher for pakistan, now even out of the team. Quinton-de-kock is chosen to open the innings that too being such a young palyer and wicket keeper. Why?? how many examples you want?
 
Enforcer said:
Dhoni in his 1st match as an opener produced 91 runs. Rohit now a much better player as an opener. sarfaraz Ahmed played some really good knocks as an opener, but struggling as a finisher for pakistan, now even out of the team. Quinton-de-kock is chosen to open the innings that too being such a young palyer and wicket keeper. Why?? how many examples you want?
Click to expand...

Because all of them can hit the ball and score aggressively.. name me one tuk tuk batsman who was sent up the order.
 
tempus123 said:
So Finch is kept as opener just because he would be poor downstream ? good one. You win.
Click to expand...

So how many breathe taking knocks Finch has scored as an finisher. please care to explain? Even sehwag struggled initially at middle order but fluorished as an opener. Sachin is the biggest example
 
tempus123 said:
Because all of them can hit the ball and score aggressively.. name me one tuk tuk batsman who was sent up the order.
Click to expand...

Why they will send any, to lose. But it is easy to find some one who can give you blistering start. Moeen Ali now doing it for england,despite not technically correct.
 
Enforcer said:
So how many breathe taking knocks Finch has scored as an finisher. please care to explain? Even sehwag struggled initially at middle order but fluorished as an opener. Sachin is the biggest example
Click to expand...

When did Sehwag play in the middle order in ODIs ? When he was raw ? Sachin would have flourished anywhere, it was just that he felt more comfortable shaping the game, because the best batsmen in your team need to face maximum deliveries.

Klusener failed (relatively) when sent up the order compared to his miracles down the order. Dravid/Inzy were good middle order players but wouldn't dare/misfit to open.
 
tempus123 said:
Because all of them can hit the ball and score aggressively.. name me one tuk tuk batsman who was sent up the order.
Click to expand...

Mark Greatbatch was a best example for this, he was a very conservative batsman in the middle order and he was sent up the order in 1992 world cup to provide some momentum. He destroyed attacks and scored at a nearly 95-100 S/R which was unheard in those days for an opener.

Opening in test match is a specialist job, that's why even players with great technique are reluctant to open; Opening in odi matches is relatively easier for a middle order bat to adjust, we have seen plenty of such examples;

Not sure, why this issue has been dragging this long, when it is pretty evident on the data we have?
 
Enforcer said:
Why they will send any, to lose. But it is easy to find some one who can give you blistering start. Moeen Ali now doing it for england,despite not technically correct.
Click to expand...

The point is, not everyone can be sent to open, but he can still play in the middle order if his SR is around 75-80. To be an opener, you need to be able to score at 85-90 SR.
 
My point is, it is not necessary to have an opener who has an high average along with high strike rate like Amla have, especially when you have player de-villers,du-plessi and miller down the order. I would rather chose an opener with decent average and high strike rate, and who can produce his best while chasing over Amla.
 
tempus123 said:
The point is, not everyone can be sent to open, but he can still play in the middle order if his SR is around 75-80. To be an opener, you need to be able to score at 85-90 SR.
Click to expand...

No SR 85-90 can be easilly achievable. You know even Mahela jayawardane has better average and s/r as an opener.
 
Why pakistan lost to india in 2011 WC or even 2015 WC. They have never found another saeed Anwar till date, that is correct. But that wasn't the reason they lost. Is it? They never had a good middle-order player ,who is good at taking singles. Batting in middle-order is very much important, and not everyone's cup of tea.
 
India-SA match, once India had a solid start, despite faltering in the middle, India still crossed 300. How many times you see teams recover from 30/2 and post 300 ? It is always easy when openers provide you a good start, if they don't, you will not score 300 easily.

If a team is at 90-0 in 15 overs, most likely it will go on to cross 300, but if it is 40-2 in 10 overs, 8 times out of 10, it will fold before 250.
 
Enforcer said:
Why pakistan lost to india in 2011 WC or even 2015 WC. They have never found another saeed Anwar till date, that is correct. But that wasn't the reason they lost. Is it? They never had a good middle-order player ,who is good at taking singles. Batting in middle-order is very much important, and not everyone's cup of tea.
Click to expand...

Take 2003 WC example match b/w India and Pakistan, if Tendulkar hadn't played that innings, and India didn't go off to a flyer, would you have expected Dravid/Yuvraj to take you through after being at 50/3 ? A good start makes it so easy for coming batsmen.
 
Also take 2003 WC final, Had Gilly not put India into submission with 80+ runs in first 10 overs, I don't think Ponting could have played that innings with the freedom.. and taken all the credit. it's easy to come at 80-0 and play than coming at 40-3 and playing same way.. it can't happen.
 
tempus123 said:
Take 2003 WC example match b/w India and Pakistan, if Tendulkar hadn't played that innings, and India didn't go off to a flyer, would you have expected Dravid/Yuvraj to take you through after being at 50/3 ? A good start makes it so easy for coming batsmen.
Click to expand...

look no further than 2011 Finals, IIRC we were 36/2?? Mid over bats did that one- so that negates your 50/3.

Allright how about the Natwest 2002? Okish start but with the pressure on and the middle order collpasing?
 
tempus123 said:
India-SA match, once India had a solid start, despite faltering in the middle, India still crossed 300. How many times you see teams recover from 30/2 and post 300 ? It is always easy when openers provide you a good start, if they don't, you will not score 300 easily.

If a team is at 90-0 in 15 overs, most likely it will go on to cross 300, but if it is 40-2 in 10 overs, 8 times out of 10, it will fold before 250.
Click to expand...

So wicket loss of Rohit sharma was solid start?? Let me tell you last time in 2011 Wc we had an excellent start against the same SA, looked like we could score 350, but we managed 290 odd and lost..Isn't opening over-rated
 
nish_mate said:
look no further than 2011 Finals, IIRC we were 36/2?? Mid over bats did that one- so that negates your 50/3.

Allright how about the Natwest 2002? Okish start but with the pressure on and the middle order collpasing?
Click to expand...

As I said 8 times out of 10 you would fail.. it doesn't mean you can't turn it around ever. The fact that netwest was called a miracle proves it didn't happen that regularly.. and also in that match, Ganguly went after the attack and provided a dream start..
 
Some of you guys should send these findings to the coaching staff of all the major teams. That way all the best batsman will open the innings and simply be unbeatable.

De Villiers would average close to 75 with a 120 SR if he opens.

Misbah might average 60 with a 85 SR

Dhoni will average maybe 80+ since its so damn easy.

Not sure why the coaches have not picked up on this fact that it is way easier to open the innings in ODIs. Teams should simply send the two best batsman to open and then sit back and enjoy as double hundred opening stands become the norm and bowlers bow down in defeat as it is almost impossible for any bowler to bowl to openers.

Can someone explain why this isn't the case already?
 
ikram17 said:
Some of you guys should send these findings to the coaching staff of all the major teams. That way all the best batsman will open the innings and simply be unbeatable.

De Villiers would average close to 75 with a 120 SR if he opens.

Misbah might average 60 with a 85 SR

Dhoni will average maybe 80+ since its so damn easy.

Not sure why the coaches have not picked up on this fact that it is way easier to open the innings in ODIs. Teams should simply send the two best batsman to open and then sit back and enjoy as double hundred opening stands become the norm and bowlers bow down in defeat as it is almost impossible for any bowler to bowl to openers.

Can someone explain why this isn't the case already?
Click to expand...

:)) Dhoni scored 90+ in his 1st match he played as opener. Your point??
 
Enforcer said:
So wicket loss of Rohit sharma was solid start?? Let me tell you last time in 2011 Wc we had an excellent start against the same SA, looked like we could score 350, but we managed 290 odd and lost..Isn't opening over-rated
Click to expand...

9 teams out of 10 would score 350 while being at 250-1. If India's middle order could not even do that after such a start, it's the failure of middle order which doesn't mean opening is over rated.. it means something you don't want to hear.
 
tempus123 said:
9 teams out of 10 would score 350 while being at 250-1. If India's middle order could not even do that after such a start, it's the failure of middle order which doesn't mean opening is over rated.. it means something you don't want to hear.
Click to expand...

BUt But BUt isn't India failed failed to that against southAfrica in 2011 wc
 
Enforcer said:
BUt But BUt isn't India failed failed to that against southAfrica in 2011 wc
Click to expand...

When you lose 8 wickets for 50 runs, anything can happen.. if opening stand wasn't there, india's total would have been around 150.. at least due to openers it was 296.
 
Enforcer said:
because opening is not everything. who will do the role of finisher?Amla?:yk
Click to expand...

But why need a finisher when your openers could just pile on millions of runs? I'm sure most teams could send batsman capable of scoring 30-50 runs because the openers will undoubtedly do the rest since opening is so easy in ODIs :amla

Please explain this to me, or at least send an email to every coaching staff, you might get a contract, who knows? :yk
 
tempus123 said:
9 teams out of 10 would score 350 while being at 250-1. If India's middle order could not even do that after such a start, it's the failure of middle order which doesn't mean opening is over rated.. it means something you don't want to hear.
Click to expand...

India scored 404 against srilanka, after being 59-2, good opening partnership is not mandatory to score 350+ runs
 
ikram17 said:
But why need a finisher when your openers could just pile on millions of runs? I'm sure most teams could send batsman capable of scoring 30-50 runs because the openers will undoubtedly do the rest since opening is so easy in ODIs :amla

Please explain this to me, or at least send an email to every coaching staff, you might get a contract, who knows? :yk
Click to expand...

opener get tired after batting so much. simple.
 
tempus123 said:
When you lose 8 wickets for 50 runs, anything can happen.. if opening stand wasn't there, india's total would have been around 150.. at least due to openers it was 296.
Click to expand...

The ball reversed during the later overs and steyn is one of the greatest ,when it comes to reverse swing. That pitch was super flat, and with no conventional swing, that allow our openers to surge but was tough later on due to reverse swing.
 
Enforcer said:
India scored 404 against srilanka, after being 59-2, good opening partnership is not mandatory to score 350+ runs
Click to expand...

Let's count all the big chases over 300 runs and see the number of times the team was successful when they were 3 down before 50 runs. Compare that to the number when one of the top-2 or 3 goes on to make a big hundred in those chases.
 
tempus123 said:
Weren't you the one who said Dhoni never took the match home chasing when Kohli fell midway ?
Click to expand...

It is not a thread b/w kohli and Dhoni. Here the discussion is you don't require someone with such an high average as an opener as Amla. AGood strike rate will do.
 
There has been enough examples of struggling middle order batsman, who became top openers and not the other way around. And that is why i feel openers in ODIs are over-rated. Thats it.
 
Enforcer said:
There has been enough examples of struggling middle order batsman, who became top openers and not the other way around. And that is why i feel openers in ODIs are over-rated. Thats it.
Click to expand...

All of them had natural flair to open.. and hit big boundaries.. some who couldn't do that didn't become openers.
 
Enforcer said:
And may not be but still delivered when it matter the most. champions trophy and that century at MCG against aussies. What Amla did for south africa in champions trophy??
Click to expand...

So Rohit is better than Amla as an opener because Rohit performs when it matters the most ? ha ha ha.. you are really good Enforcer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Buffet
Joe Root versus Hashim Amla in the Test format
2
Replies
158
Views
6K
atreus
atreus
F
  • Poll Poll
Younis Khan versus Virat Kohli in Tests
2 3
Replies
196
Views
9K
Fanboy375
Fanboy375
Bilal7
[VIDEOS] Babar Azam vs Virat Kohli at the ICC World Cup 2023
6 7 8
Replies
636
Views
32K
jnaveen1980
J
Unbiased-Fan
Shubman Gill versus Sai Sudarshan versus Yashasvi Jaiswal: Who will have a better career?
Replies
27
Views
2K
Cricket Warrior
Cricket Warrior
MenInG
Comparison between Babar Azam, Sachin Tendulkar & Virat Kohli at the same point in their ODI careers
2 3
Replies
189
Views
15K
AMSS
A
Back
Top