Honour Killings

[Informer]

Raped girl, 13, stoned to death
01/11/2008 19:05 - (SA)

Mogadishu - A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death on October 27 in a stadium packed with 1 000 spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo, Amnesty International and Somali media reported, citing witnesses.

The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her, the rights group said.

Initial local media reports said Duhulow was 23, but her father told Amnesty International she was 13.

Some of the Somali journalists who first reported the killing later told Amnesty International that they had reported she was 23 based upon her physical appearance.

'Horrendous death'

Calls to Somali government officials and the local administration in Kismayo rang unanswered on Saturday.

"This child suffered a horrendous death at the behest of the armed opposition groups who currently control Kismayo," David Copeman, Amnesty International's Somalia campaigner, said in a statement on Friday.

Somalia is among the world's most violent and impoverished countries. The nation of some 8 million people has not had a functioning government since warlords overthrew a dictator in 1991 then turned on each other.

A quarter of Somali children die before age 5; nearly every public institution has collapsed. Fighting is a daily occurrence, with violent deaths reported nearly every day.

Al-Qaeda ties

Islamic militants with ties to al-Qaeda have been battling the government and its Ethiopian allies since their combined forces pushed the Islamists from the capital in December 2006.

Within weeks of being driven out, the Islamists launched an insurgency that has killed thousands of civilians.

In recent months, the militants appear to be gaining strength.

The group has taken over the port of Kismayo, Somalia's third-largest city, and dismantled pro-government roadblocks.

They also effectively closed the Mogadishu airport by threatening to attack any plane using it.

 

[Mohsin]

Raped girl, 13, stoned to death
01/11/2008 19:05 - (SA)

Mogadishu - A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

W T F!! I hope these millitants die a painful painful death!

If they were in front of me now!

 

[filosofee]

Raped girl, 13, stoned to death
01/11/2008 19:05 - (SA)

Mogadishu - A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death on October 27 in a stadium packed with 1 000 spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo, Amnesty International and Somali media reported, citing witnesses.

The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her, the rights group said.

Initial local media reports said Duhulow was 23, but her father told Amnesty International she was 13.

Some of the Somali journalists who first reported the killing later told Amnesty International that they had reported she was 23 based upon her physical appearance.

'Horrendous death'

Calls to Somali government officials and the local administration in Kismayo rang unanswered on Saturday.

"This child suffered a horrendous death at the behest of the armed opposition groups who currently control Kismayo," David Copeman, Amnesty International's Somalia campaigner, said in a statement on Friday.

Somalia is among the world's most violent and impoverished countries. The nation of some 8 million people has not had a functioning government since warlords overthrew a dictator in 1991 then turned on each other.

A quarter of Somali children die before age 5; nearly every public institution has collapsed. Fighting is a daily occurrence, with violent deaths reported nearly every day.

Al-Qaeda ties

Islamic militants with ties to al-Qaeda have been battling the government and its Ethiopian allies since their combined forces pushed the Islamists from the capital in December 2006.

Within weeks of being driven out, the Islamists launched an insurgency that has killed thousands of civilians.

In recent months, the militants appear to be gaining strength.

The group has taken over the port of Kismayo, Somalia's third-largest city, and dismantled pro-government roadblocks.

They also effectively closed the Mogadishu airport by threatening to attack any plane using it.

Is it any wonder that the world over distrust and fear Muslims.

 

[pakistanbest]

Raped girl, 13, stoned to death
01/11/2008 19:05 - (SA)

Mogadishu - A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death on October 27 in a stadium packed with 1 000 spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo, Amnesty International and Somali media reported, citing witnesses.

The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her, the rights group said.

Initial local media reports said Duhulow was 23, but her father told Amnesty International she was 13.

Some of the Somali journalists who first reported the killing later told Amnesty International that they had reported she was 23 based upon her physical appearance.

'Horrendous death'

Calls to Somali government officials and the local administration in Kismayo rang unanswered on Saturday.

"This child suffered a horrendous death at the behest of the armed opposition groups who currently control Kismayo," David Copeman, Amnesty International's Somalia campaigner, said in a statement on Friday.

Somalia is among the world's most violent and impoverished countries. The nation of some 8 million people has not had a functioning government since warlords overthrew a dictator in 1991 then turned on each other.

A quarter of Somali children die before age 5; nearly every public institution has collapsed. Fighting is a daily occurrence, with violent deaths reported nearly every day.

Al-Qaeda ties

Islamic militants with ties to al-Qaeda have been battling the government and its Ethiopian allies since their combined forces pushed the Islamists from the capital in December 2006.

Within weeks of being driven out, the Islamists launched an insurgency that has killed thousands of civilians.

In recent months, the militants appear to be gaining strength.

The group has taken over the port of Kismayo, Somalia's third-largest city, and dismantled pro-government roadblocks.

They also effectively closed the Mogadishu airport by threatening to attack any plane using it.

UNELIEVABLE...i wish they die a slow and painfull death everymone of them..they deserve to go hell issed: issed: issed:

if only i had the chance of meeting the b@Std murderers..all 1000 of them issed: issed: issed:

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Honour Killings in Pakistan

Earlier on today while browsing on youtube I came across this disturbing video about "rapes in Pakistan" - It's something that we all know that happens....just thought I'd share it with you all! Some might have even seen it before or if it's too bad or something my apologies and therefore, the MODS can delete this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4PFnl1S6Q&feature=related

 

[161]

Pakistani newlyweds live in fear of honor killing

By Aftab Borka
January 22, 2009

KARACHI (Reuters) - Pervez Chachar and his young wife live in the police headquarters in the Pakistani city of Karachi. Their crime? They fell in love and married without their families' permission.

The newlyweds dare not venture out of the police station as they fear their families will hunt them down and kill them.

"I know they will kill her and I have to protect her," Chachar said of his wife's family who are enraged that the young woman chose to marry a man from a rival tribe.

In traditional rural society in Pakistan, getting married without permission is deemed such a serious slight to the "honor" of a family or a tribe that death is seen as fitting retribution.

Rights groups estimate 500 people, most of them women, are killed in the name of "honor" in Pakistan every year, with the majority of victims from poor, rural families often killed by their own relatives.

Shortly after Chachar married Humera Kambo a year ago, the couple fled to Karachi from their home in Sindh province. Humera, too afraid to talk to a reporter, has been abducted by her family and Chachar has been beaten by them.

Still defiant, they fear death if they stray too far from the cramped room next to the police canteen which they share with another young couple in the same position. They have been there for four months and they don't know when they can safely leave.

Under Pakistani customs still followed in much of the countryside, a man or woman can be declared an outcast for having sexual relations outside marriage, or choosing their own spouse.

The United Nations has estimated that some 5,000 people, mostly women, die every year in so-called honor killings, mostly in South Asia and the Middle East.

BAD SIGN

Traditionally, people in rural Pakistan have little confidence in, or access to, police and courts in big towns. They solve problems through jirgas, or councils, of village elders.

But the councils are often manipulated by the powerful and become tools for sanctioning violence against the weak, often in the course of a dispute within an extended family over land or some other asset.

Women are the weakest of all in traditional, male-dominated Muslim society so they are often targeted, rights groups say.

"Why does it happen? Because they are always the ones who have no redress, either legally or socially," Anis Haroon, of the women's rights group the Aurat Foundation, said of the victims.

"They don't know anyone, they have no contacts, they have no money to offer the police. And these perpetrators come from the higher status of society," she said.

Haroon said there could be no hope of change until legislators changed their mindset.

Most educated, urban Pakistanis abhor the violence and former president Pervez Musharraf took small steps to improve the lot of women. But change is painfully slow.

A senator from Baluchistan province provoked outrage late last year when he said the killing of five women, who were reported to have been shot and buried alive in another case of honor killing, was a reflection of tribal traditions.

The senator, Sardar Israrullah Zehri, is now a minister in the federal government.

"It is a very bad sign ... people who are encouraging violence, their membership should be canceled. They should not be allowed to contest elections," Haroon said.

TIME FOR CHANGE

Orangzeb Magsi, a 32-year-old graduate from a U.S. university, is a leader of one of the most powerful tribes in Baluchistan.

Magsi has dealt with more than 100 cases of "honor" crime in the past four years in his district but thankfully no killings, he says. Only education and time will bring change, he adds.

"On the one hand, you have these centuries old customs and on the other, the government says 'it's illegal'," Magsi said. "Since they are not educated, it's very difficult to make them understand."

Nafeesa Shah, a newly elected member of parliament from a rural area of Sindh province, said the jirgas and custom of killing women over honor reflected the failure of the judicial system.

"You had these customs in medieval Europe. You had the lynching of people in America ... These things will only go if you have laws that don't allow space for it," Shah said.

Shah, a member of assassinated former prime minister Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party, said the party's victory in 2008 elections was a golden opportunity for change.

"It is important now that we, who are in power and can change things, take this as a sign of the times and work toward making laws and improving criminal procedures in a way that deters the offenders from protecting their crimes in the name of honor or customs," she said.

 

[161]

Is this not terrorism ?

A terrorism that half the population live in fear of they dare follow their basic human emotions ?

IMHO .. denial of these basic freedoms to women is the biggest problem in Pakistan !

 

[Ghoshtbuster]

Yes, the "honour" issue is sickening, totally backwards.

Women are the weakest of all in traditional, male-dominated Muslim society so they are often targeted, rights groups say.

What does this mean? There is no mention of religion before or after in the article, but the author felt compelled.

 

[Oxy]

This is one thing that cannot be pinned on Islam!!!

Thjey have a valid marriage according to Islam.

Sadly, that is worth nothing when the rule of 'Mohd Asif' applies - ie being a Jahil Paindoo

Ive been to these villages - my cousin has the misfortune of being married into one of them.

These people respect no religion! The only rule their worship is that of being an uneducated, paindoo jahil!

 

[observer1]

Quite disgusting yet not surprising they use Religion (or lack of!) as the scape goat.

 

[Oxy]

Its these type of villager with the jahil paindoo mentality that is hindering progress in the sub-continent.

Be it Pakistan, Bangladesh or India - they are in the majority.

 

[moiz]

And the worst thing is that people will also not support the newlyweds since it's sort of a taboo to marry without the permission of your familiy - no matter how paindoo jahil sick the family is!

And therefore those paindoo jahil people, Oxy is talking about, have a strong structure through which they curb!

People just don't rebel against them.

People just don't support those who act against the sick traditional structure.

I usually support rebels!
I salute the newlyweds!

 

[Inswinger]

Society is the cause of all evil but most people shield themselves by blaming it on religion.

 

[moiz]

And at times not even by 'blaming' but by (mis)using religion.

 

[kingusama92]

what the heck?? How is Islam to be blamed here?? Those monkeys that call themselves human beings are the ones that need to be killed. They are legally married and that should be the end of it, I understand that it's hard to swallow for the parents but by acting like this they are being utterly mental and need to get their heads screwed back on.

 

[Butcher face spotter]

This issue is more about feudalism and less about religion.

 

[the_best]

Its these type of villager with the jahil paindoo mentality that is hindering progress in the sub-continent.

Be it Pakistan, Bangladesh or India - they are in the majority.

Though I do agree but you could take out Bangladesh from this specific issue i.e honor killing or wedding on your own will though parents still insiste marrying some one of their choice but if groom or bride have their choice parents so as society agree. But this mentality is more prevalent on the issue of divorce specially when it come in the heat of moment

 

[Wazeeri]

Though I do agree but you could take out Bangladesh from this specific issue i.e honor killing or wedding on your own will though parents still insiste marrying some one of their choice but if groom or bride have their choice parents so as society agree. But this mentality is more prevalent on the issue of divorce specially when it come in the heat of moment

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5340058.ece

 

[the Great Khan]

more bad news about pakistan being highlighted...i smell an operation pakistan storm brewing..

 

[Waq]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5340058.ece

) )

On a serious note, it shows that any country has the exception to the rule including Bangladesh, UK and USA etc.

Pakistan seems to be the forefront of discussions when it comes to honour violence but how many people do you really know who have been forced to marry people they did not want to. I mean friends / family and not stories heard in the grapevine.

I know of a few cases but that is a few out of the hundreds / thousands of Pakistanis I have come across in the UK and Pakistan.

It is probably more accurate that more Pakistanis are marrying poeple of their choice and that trend is accelerating every day.

I know most of you know it but it needs to be repeated. If you agree to an arranged marriage does not mean you have been the victim of an honour crime, most of you are able to say no and the worse that will happen will be an upset parent. There are exceptions just like you have in certain UK communities such as Irish Travellers or even a relationship between two people on a different council estate in Liverpool can lead to violence.

Responding to post 2 on this thred where Kashif is saying that this is terrorism. Pull yourself together man! I know you want to enlighten people and give them choices and independence but you bringing your point across in a intolerant and pompous way.

A miracle culture transformation does not happen overnight and we are generally heading in the right way. (Pakistanis as a whole throught out the world). If people within the NWFP disagree to your principles then hey, that is their culture and thats how they live and thats what works for them. Give them all a democratic right not just the young couples. Try and understand why they do such a thing and go as deep as you can first. It will be a journey I promise you!

 

[161]

High Profile Honor Killing Shocks Peshawar

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6211260.ece

Singer Ayman Udas ‘shot by her brothers for TV sin’
Daud Khattak

A RISING musical star was allegedly shot dead by her own brothers in the conservative city of Peshawar in Pakistan last week after she had appeared on television.

The murder of Ayman Udas, who was in her early thirties and newly married, has shocked the city’s artistic community because it symbolises a backlash against women and cultural freedom in an area that is increasingly dominated by Islamic funda-mentalists.

As a singer and song writer in her native Pashto, the language of the tribal areas and the NorthWest Frontier province, Udas frequently performed on PTV, the state-run channel.

She won considerable acclaim for her songs but had become a musician in the face of bitter opposition from her family, who believed it was sinful for a woman to perform on television.

Ashamed of her growing popularity her two brothers are reported to have entered her flat last week while her husband was out and fired three bullets into her chest. Neither has been caught.

The final song performed by Udas on screen seems to have portended her death. It was entitled, “I died but still live among the living, because I live on in the dreams of my lover.” Udas, a divorced mother of two, had remarried 10 days before she was murdered.

Fellow performers, many of whom have received death threats from hardline Islamist groups, were stunned by the killing.

In recent months several popular artists have been forced to stop performing as singers and comedians. Others have fled the country or moved to other cities.

Initially, it was believed that Udas was killed by an Islamic group. But Usman Khan, her husband, told police in a statement that she had been killed by her brothers because they could not come to terms with her musical career.

He said: “She was killed for breaking her family traditions.”



[utube]Zo7Aufw5EuI[/utube]

 

[Ayyub]

so sad .....

 

[161]

Bump .. nearly 200 views .. only one reply .. I guess this stuff has become so matter of fact it's not even worth discussing.

Talibanization of Pakistan is well and truly on its way.

 

[insaftak]

Bump .. nearly 200 views .. only one reply .. I guess this stuff has become so matter of fact it's not even worth discussing.

Talibanization of Pakistan is well and truly on its way.

i can't believe you blamed this on talibans as well. this is sick pakhtoon culture and its been happening forever now and gov't needs to something about it. talibans also cut down women nose in kashmore or threw a pregnant women in front of dogs in south punjab or burried women alive for marrying whoever they wanted it balouchistan. this is our sick culture and has nothing to do with talibans.

 

[waqar_ahmad]

Chalo ge, link this to talibanization. Excellent

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

i can't believe you blamed this on talibans as well. this is sick pakhtoon culture and its been happening forever now and gov't needs to something about it. talibans also cut down women nose in kashmore or threw a pregnant women in front of dogs in south punjab or burried women alive for marrying whoever they wanted it balouchistan. this is our sick culture and has nothing to do with talibans.

so does that means that MQM is doing the right thing by saying that pukhtoons and talibans are one and the same!

 

[insaftak]

so does that means that MQM is doing the right thing by saying that pukhtoons and talibans are one and the same!

mqm is calling every pakthoon a taliban, which is sad. i gave examples from sindh, punjab and balouchisatn as well. this is our sick culture that needs to be changed and jahliaat and poverty are two aspects that are responsible for this.

 

[offstump]

Bump .. nearly 200 views .. only one reply .. I guess this stuff has become so matter of fact it's not even worth discussing.

Talibanization of Pakistan is well and truly on its way.

Initially, it was believed that Udas was killed by an Islamic group. But Usman Khan, her husband, told police in a statement that she had been killed by her brothers because they could not come to terms with her musical career.

He said: “She was killed for breaking her family traditions.”

 

[insaftak]

Initially, it was believed that Udas was killed by an Islamic group. But Usman Khan, her husband, told police in a statement that she had been killed by her brothers because they could not come to terms with her musical career.

He said: “She was killed for breaking her family traditions.”

its just funny how kashif blames everything on talibans.

 

[offstump]

its just funny how kashif blames everything on talibans.

yeah but we need to be careful, pointing out errors like this may earn us the label of "taliban sympathizers"

 

[waqar_ahmad]

its just funny how kashif blames everything on talibans.

Not funny, its getting kinda boring and predictable

 

[Momo]

Bump .. nearly 200 views .. only one reply .. I guess this stuff has become so matter of fact it's not even worth discussing.

Talibanization of Pakistan is well and truly on its way.

Kashif you need to get yourself treated for CHTS (Chronic Hyper Taliban Syndrome) NOW.

 

[Golden arm]

Its Horrifying act. We must condemn this act.

 

[Keith]

i can't believe you blamed this on talibans as well. this is sick pakhtoon culture and its been happening forever now and gov't needs to something about it. talibans also cut down women nose in kashmore or threw a pregnant women in front of dogs in south punjab or burried women alive for marrying whoever they wanted it balouchistan. this is our sick culture and has nothing to do with talibans.

Great post mate.

It is sometimes just too easy to blame others without first having a look at ourselves.

 

[waqar_ahmad]

Kashif you need to get yourself treated for CHTS (Chronic Hyper Taliban Syndrome) NOW.

There is no treatment for this if you are living in the US. The only protection is vaccination. But you must get it as a kid.

 

[zimmz]

^^^ Instead of vaccination, kids in USA are told "Beta so jaao werna talib baooo khaa jaaiy gaa"....CHTS starts right there

 

[161]

Bunch of illiterates here don't even understand what the phrase "Talibanization" means.

It means that the sick ways of the Taliban are spreading to people who aren't even Taliban.

Get it people ?

 

[161]

What's even more shocking is how most of these guys can sit here and condemn me for linking this to spread of Taliban 'values' .. but at the same time not even utter a word of condemnation of this horrible act.

Shows were peoples priorities lie.

No wonder most of these murderers go unpunished in Pakistan.

 

[srh]

Bunch of illiterates here don't even understand what the phrase "Talibanization" means.

It means that the sick ways of the Taliban are spreading to people who aren't even Taliban.

Get it people ?

Here you are assuming two things:
1) that these are sick ways of Taliban
2) that these sick ways of Taliban are spreading to people who are not even Talibans.

Both of your assumptions are wrong. These are not sick ways of Talibans. These are sick ways of a lot of people of Pakistan. And these sick ways were there in Pakistan long before Talibans came into existence. Its because media is free nowadays (Thanks Musharaff) that these sick ways are now being reported frequently. Also these sick ways exist in all four provinces of Pakistan not just NWFP.

 

[161]

Here you are assuming two things:
1) that these are sick ways of Taliban
2) that these sick ways of Taliban are spreading to people who are not even Talibans.

Both of you assumptions are wrong. These are not sick ways of Talibans. These are sick ways of a lot of people of Pakistan. And these sick ways were there in Pakistan long before Talibans came into existence. Its because media is free nowadays (Thanks Musharaff) that these sick ways are now being reported frequently. Also these sick ways exist in all four provinces of Pakistan not just NWFP.

First question .. why do guys feel that ur priority #1 is always to defend the Taliban ?

An innocent women gets brutally murdered yet this thread becomes a Kashif bashing thread because he used the phrase "Talibanization".

Secondly .. yes Pakistan and most of South Asia have always treated women bad .. but religious extremism has taken it to new levels in Pakistan.

There is an undeniable link between violence against women and religious extremism.

Where as other countries in the region have improved their treatment of women .. things have only gotten worst in Pakistan because of fundamentalism.

 

[pakistanbest]

Absolute sick and disgusting and her own brothers, they must be so proud of their achievement, when will Pakistan move forward and people become educated and stop living in the dark ages!

May Allah (SWT) forgive her sins and grant her a place in Jannat! AMEEN

 

[Cheguvera]

Bunch of illiterates here don't even understand what the phrase "Talibanization" means.

It means that the sick ways of the Taliban are spreading to people who aren't even Taliban.

Get it people ?

Honor killings have been more common, frequent and part and parcel of rural as well as urban Punjab and Sindh, more so then the taliban country...archaic, anti-women, mysoginsitc and outright brutal practices (such as vani, marrying young girls to Quran, parading women naked in the villages, punishment of gang rape of women of an offender's family imposed by village panchayet, burrying girls alive, and etc.) are more prevalent in rural punjab, sindh and southern balochistan and these predate any taliban or fundamentalist in this part of the world...

What you are seeing in Sarhad, pukhtoons being the only true independent/free race in pakistan, is a reaction against the secularization, exploitation and objectification of women sex through euphemistic claims as women's liberation and other such hogwash...Honor killings were unheard of in Sarhad, they were and still continue to be a favorite past in Punjab and Sindh..

You and other secular, anti-islam, NGO fed, altaf bhai's brand of liberals would do yourself and your cause a huge favor, if you'd start doing something against the barbaric cultural practices of Punjab and Sindh, and also the absolute power and brutal use of it against the poor masses of these provinces by the powerful waderas, chaudhries, sardars and urban ethno terrorists like MQM...

First resolve the issues plaguing your communities, cities and provinces, then talk about existing or non-existenting existential threats a thousand miles away...

 

[161]

Che spinning his head like crazy trying to blame this on the evil secularists.

Sorry Che, but us evil secularists don't kill our sisters for singing.

 

[offstump]

Che spinning his head like crazy trying to blame this on the evil secularists.

Sorry Che, but us evil secularists don't kill our sisters for singing.

no you just give them fancy names like "crimes of passion" or "intimate partner violence"

i think you're missing the point many have tried to make which is the article you posted is clearly what the media refers to as "honour killings" and you tried to somehow link this to "talibanization" which at best is a stretch...if this is the case, then the taliban have spread their beliefs to india where a few months ago 2 hindu girls were burned alive for talking to boys on diwali...yes its very sad and disgusting that a family member could kill his own sister for singing but you're trying to link everything to the taliban and how "talibanization" of pakistan is imminent...this is quite obvious from the way you spam the forum with articles without really providing any of your insight afterwards....

 

[Cheguvera]

Che spinning his head like crazy trying to blame this on the evil secularists.

Sorry Che, but us evil secularists don't kill our sisters for singing.

Yeah you might be an asstronimcal exception, but your co-ethnics and cohorts in Punjab and Sindh are master at this...

Most honor killers are not religious nor their intentions religious and hails from either Punjab or Sindh...do some basic research...

 

[161]

Yeah you might be an asstronimcal exception, but your co-ethnics and cohorts in Punjab and Sindh are master at this...

Most honor killers are not religious nor their intentions religious and hails from either Punjab or Sindh...do some basic research...

Che's logic part 1

There are honor killings in Sindh and Punjab too .. hence we shouldn't try to prevent them in Peshawar.

Che's logic part 2

Honor killings are culturally motivated not religiously. So it's all good as long as religion doesn't get defamed along the way.


Waaah .. what brilliance.

These attempts at rationalization would be ripped apart in the real world so Che has no choice but to come to PP and spout this stuff.

But guess what Che .. your explanations are getting ripped here as well.

 

[J-Essence]

i can't believe you blamed this on talibans as well. this is sick pakhtoon culture and its been happening forever now and gov't needs to something about it. talibans also cut down women nose in kashmore or threw a pregnant women in front of dogs in south punjab or burried women alive for marrying whoever they wanted it balouchistan. this is our sick culture and has nothing to do with talibans.

u discuss me more than anything for being this ignorant. look around

 

[insaftak]

u discuss me more than anything for being this ignorant. look around

dude all examples that i gave are facts, every single incident happened in pakistan and has nothing to do with talibans or islam. i'm sorry for singling out pakhtoons though.

 

[Momo]

yeah but we need to be careful, pointing out errors like this may earn us the label of "taliban sympathizers"

kashif 'you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us' 77
or
kashif 'if-you-don't-'think'-like-me-Talibanization-is-well-under-way' 77
or
kashif 'since-this-theory-makes-sense-even-to-me-it-must-be-true' 77

 

[161]

kashif 'you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us' 77
or
kashif 'if-you-don't-'think'-like-me-Talibanization-is-well-under-way' 77
or
kashif 'since-this-theory-makes-sense-even-to-me-it-must-be-true' 77

Why are you trying to make this thread about me ?

Serious stuff here and you join the chorus of little boys with hurt egos.

I'd expect better from you now that ur a mod .. but it's the same old same old.

 

[Momo]

Why are you trying to make this thread about me ?

The same reason you are trying to make this thread about Taliban.

 

[161]

The same reason you are trying to make this thread about Taliban.

Go back and read my earlier post .. I said TALABANIZATION not TALIBAN.

I even defined it for you .. but you still don't get it.

 

[insaftak]

Go back and read my earlier post .. I said TALABANIZATION not TALIBAN.

I even defined it for you .. but you still don't get it.

kashif are u really not informed about pakistani society, seriously this kinda stuff has been happening in pakistan forever now and talibanization has nothing to do with it. look at the examples i have given in my previous post

 

[Momo]

Go back and read my earlier post .. I said TALABANIZATION not TALIBAN.

I even defined it for you .. but you still don't get it.

You did, but you never proved in the context of this incident how the sick ways of the Taliban are spreading to people who aren't even Taliban.

Here's a friendly piece of advice: You must be very careful in accepting a theory just because you 'get' it, because the world is more complex than you think.

 

[161]

You did, but you never proved in the context of this incident how the sick ways of the Taliban are spreading to people who aren't even Taliban.

Here's a friendly piece of advice: You must be very careful in accepting a theory just because you 'get' it, because the world is more complex than you think.

Taliban outlaw music because it's un-islamic.

These two brothers go out and kill their sister because she's a musician.

Put two and two together ...

 

[Momo]

Taliban outlaw music because it's un-islamic.

These two brothers go out and kill their sister because she's a musician.

Put two and two together ...

See Kashif, I told you and will say it again. Whatever it is, it is not something that can be handled by a toddler using his grade 1 arithmetic skills.

See, music and 'performing' arts have always been controversial issues among many of our people, and some ignorant people have always resorted to violence in this regard (at par with other 'honour' killing situations).

You are giving undue credit to Taliban here. I realize you have been using the tern Talibanization and not Taliban, but as far as I am concerned, saying after every incident that Talibanization is on the rise is giving far too much credit to Taliban (they would be very happy and thankful if they knew how much credit was unexpectedly being given to them).

'Crediting' Taliban with everything under the sun (albeit in the name of Talibanization) is wrong on so many fronts, some of which being:

1. What exactly does the term Taliban actually mean (and consequently the derived term Talibanization)? Nobody knows what is the definition of the word Taliban any more. It's a convenient term I agree - because it allows one to see the world in black and white, the good guys and the bad guys, the 'terrrrrists' and the 'innocent people', the 'Al-keida' and the 'civilized world' - but believe me it's not as simple as all that.

2. Notwithstanding the merit of your argument on this thread, in your general crusade against the so-called Taliban and Talibanization, you are only seeing and targeting symptoms, and not the reasons for those symptoms.

3. These days even professional kidnappers are doing their business in the name of Taliban. You can't call that Talibanization, can you? I remember in the eightees, a terror group called Hathora (hammer) Group became famous for killing people. Before anyone knew, every thug who did away with his enemy made it a point to leave a hammer on the scene of crime.

4. When you play up the role of Taliban and the alleged Talibanization, you are unknowingly playing into the hands of the propaganda machines of US (The Pentagon, Fox, CNN, and the like) whose sole purpose behind all this hue and cry is to somehow 'neutralize' Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure.

5. There's no doubt that we Pakistanis are to blame for the way we have performed in the last sixty years, including the mess we find ourselves in in this 'war or terror' (and nobody can hope to absolve Pakistanis from responsibility), but it's an extremely complex story. The Indian angle needs to be considered, the situation in Afghanistan needs to be looked at, in addition to the nuclear angle described above.

6. Leaving alone the cultural (so called 'ghairat') reasons behind these incidents, killings (based on strange religious 'rationales') also have unfortunately been going on in Pakistan for decades, much before the birth of Taliban owing to the following tragedy:

The religious people could never be successfully convinced (owing to faulty education or absolute lack thereof) that Qur'anically it was only incumbent upon them to relay the Qur'anic message to the people. Whether they heeded it or not was their own business, and of course Allah's. The 'secular' (if you allow me a loose label) group in turn could never be successfully convinced (owing again to faulty education), the importance of listening to the religious people with respect (instead of labeling them mauvis, tablighi jama'at etc) and not making fun of them. There was no atmosphere of dialogue and thus the two groups diverged more and more, sometimes resulting in bloodshed.

It will be flattering for Taliban if somebody credited this decades old phenomenon to Talibanization.

It's perfectly understandable when Rehman Malik (who incidentally is on CIA payroll) blames everything on Taliban or Talibanization. The same goes for FOX, CNN, and the like. It's also perfectly understandable why Taliban don't bother to contradict those statements. It also makes perfect sense when a Pakistan government spokesman blames every catastrophe on India (and vice versa). That's because all these things serve the respective parties' purposes and besides, they are convenient excuses. But there's no reason why you or I (who are not mouthpieces or spokemen of anybody) should resort to these not-so-subtle deceptions, is there?

A more detailed discussion on Taliban and the Taliban threat warrants a fresh thread, and I may even start one in near future (Inshallah).

 

[IMMY69]

The same reason you are trying to make this thread about Taliban.

momo, honor killing or not...religion or no religion..please just tell me this..
do you denounce the taliban or not?

 

[Momo]

momo, honor killing or not...religion or no religion..please just tell me this..
do you denounce the taliban or not?

I am in the middle of writing in detail my views on Taliban (a few episodes to go still) on a separate thread.

You see, I am not George Bush (or one of his fans) for whom everything is very simple. Neither am I Bill O'reilly for whom everything is a yes/no issue (simple as it undoubtedly makes things). For thoughtful people, it is kinda difficult to issue broad sweeping statements covering everything.

If you ask me about specific actions or policies of Taliban, I will be able to give you a yes or no answer, but I can't cover everything with a big general yes or no.

Taliban have some good things about them, and many bad things. The same can be said about our non-Taliban rulers that have been ruling us for sixty years, who want more time, who have made it clear with their actions that they are not willing to change the way they intend to rule, and who are the very people responsible for the rise of Taliban in Pakistan.

 

[Cheguvera]

momo, honor killing or not...religion or no religion..please just tell me this..
do you denounce the taliban or not?

This is a very simplistic, black and white, and zionist way of looking at complex issues, which require a nuanced understanding and analysis to dissect and mitigate...

In the same vain, taliban have not been born out of a vacuum, do you condemn all and everything that has lead to the genesis of taliban...

Please do so from the beginning and be impartial and as fair as you can be...

 

[Golden arm]

Honour Killings in India: horrific stories

Pakistan is always being singled out for honour killings by international media.
Following BBC report exposes the horrific stories of honour killings in SHINING INDIA.
The objective is not to single out one country , but to create consensus for mutual trust, peace and efforts to eliminate poverty and illiteracy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/08/090805_honourkilling_khadeeja.shtml

 

[Svector]

Pakistan is always being singled out for honour killings by international media.
Following BBC report exposes the horrific stories of honour killings in SHINING INDIA.
The objective is not to single out one country , but to create consensus for mutual trust, peace and efforts to eliminate poverty and illiteracy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/08/090805_honourkilling_khadeeja.shtml

I must say that this is strange logic. If Pakistan is being singled out then what has India got to do with this? The fingers that are pointing at Pakistan are not from India, but from the western govt/media. I see no reason to drag India into this.
Perhaps the negative image is enforced because of the incidents of honor killings among expatriate Pakistanis. I dont think I have heard of as many cases among the Indian expatriates.

 

[Khalil]

Honour killings is crime and it must be stopped. This practice takes place both in India and Pakistan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6795356.ece

 

[Golden arm]

I must say that this is strange logic. If Pakistan is being singled out then what has India got to do with this? The fingers that are pointing at Pakistan are not from India, but from the western govt/media. I see no reason to drag India into this.
Perhaps the negative image is enforced because of the incidents of honor killings among expatriate Pakistanis. I dont think I have heard of as many cases among the Indian expatriates.

brother its not from me, its from your beloved western media, which is often quoted by indians to settle score against Pakistan.
please see, i clearly said that i dont want to single out one country, its just the common enemy on both sides of border, and we must be peaceful and fight together against this enemy of illiteracy and poverty.
This role has to be played by public on both sides. Because politicians and media will never play their role to find solutions to problems.
Time has come when Public on both sides has to wake up and say NO to those mafias who are making both countries spend billions of dollars on weapons.

 

[Oxy]

I accept that Pakistan seems t get singled out - as if it happens no where else on the planet.

There are many issues that I'll go toe to toe with anyone on India, but to try & point-score on an issue like this?

No way.

Subcontinent as a whole has some MASSIVE problems - its just so large and backward that it has hasnt even joined the 20th Centurey - let alone the 21st Century!!!

Honour killings / Female infanticide / Caste system / treatment of the poor / Poverty / Lack of basic amenities affects various parts of the Subcontinent.

Nothing to be proud of really

 

[Golden arm]

I accept that Pakistan seems t get singled out - as if it happens no where else on the planet.

There are many issues that I'll go toe to toe with anyone on India, but to try & point-score on an issue like this?

No way.

Subcontinent as a whole has some MASSIVE problems - its just so large and backward that it has hasnt even joined the 20th Centurey - let alone the 21st Century!!!

Honour killings / Female infanticide / Caste system / treatment of the poor / Poverty / Lack of basic amenities affects various parts of the Subcontinent.

Nothing to be proud of really

very true!

the strange thing is if western media says any thing bad for Pakistan, its a very credible evidence for few of my friends, but when they point out this thing across the borders, people are irked, I dont know why.
we must have to accept the problems on both sides and should defy them rather than victimization, isolation and cheap propegenda.

 

[moumotta]

very true!

the strange thing is if western media says any thing bad for Pakistan, its a very credible evidence for few of my friends, but when they point out this thing across the borders, people are irked, I dont know why.
we must have to accept the problems on both sides and should defy them rather than victimization, isolation and cheap propegenda.

Not sure what you are trying to prove here. This report does not prove any western media bias or misreporting because the report is true. It has been in Indian media for a few weeks now.

 

[Wazeeri]

Out of everything we can compete in.

THis is the score I also want to settle with India.

You kill more women then us, which makes you bigger "$%^^%s then we are.

Sure we are "$%^^%s but not as big as you.

There, I said it, now it makes me feel better.

 

[Golden arm]

Out of everything we can compete in.

THis is the score I also want to settle with India.

You kill more women then us, which makes you bigger "$%^^%s then we are.

Sure we are "$%^^%s but not as big as you.

There, I said it, now it makes me feel better.

lolz now thats called catharsis,

 

[Jadz]

Honor Killing By Any Other Name

"Until thirty years ago, it was common to hear about honor killings among Italians. But now when a man kills his wife, they call it a crime of passion," argues Cinzia Tani, an Italian writer and journalist who specializes in women's issues. "It's the same concept taking different names: a man kills a woman of his family in order to assert his control over her body. The only difference is that back then the homicide of a woman was 100 percent acceptable. Now at least it is considered a crime, as the term itself suggests, even if it is still considered more acceptable than other kinds of homicides."

"Violence against women is widespread in almost any country, regardless of ethnicity or religion," says Farian Sabahi, an Iranian-Italian academic who teaches Islamic history at the University of Turin.

Although data suggest that violence against women is more common and tolerated in traditional Muslim societies, the difference when compared with Europe is not as significant as one would expect.

"Sadly enough, many leaders are turning violence against women into a pretext to attack Islam, to show that it is backward," says Sabahi. She argues that associating honor killings with Muslim culture alone is just plain wrong. "It's not an issue of civilization, but rather of lack of thereof," says Sabahi. "Women in Italy should be particularly aware of this: our legal system recognized honor as an 'extenuating circumstance' in murders until 1981."

In Italy, several episodes in recent years suggest that violence against women is still tolerated both by some Italian authorities and parts of society when the victim is perceived as having dishonored or upset her murderer.

Last year local church authorities defended a man in Macerata, a small town in central Italy, who had attempted to kill his wife because she asked for a divorce. Francesca Carletti-Baleani wanted to leave her husband because he had cheated on her. Bruno Carletti responded by beating her until she was unconscious, wrapping her body in a plastic bag and dumping it into a trash bin on the outskirts of town.

Carletti-Baleani miraculously survived, and her husband confessed to attempting to kill her. "It was an act of love," wrote Father Igino Ciabattoni, a leader of the White Cross Catholic organization. The priest also accused the victim of "torturing her husband" because she refused to take him back.

In 2007, in the Sicilian town of Palermo, Renato Di Felice served only two days in prison, despite being found guilty of purposely killing his wife, Maria Concetta-Pitas, in 2003: the couple's children had testified that their mother had been disrespectful toward her husband, moving the judge to a mild sentence.

Passion and honor-related crimes against women seem so engrained in Italian society that in 2006 a German court granted extenuating circumstances on the basis of "ethnic and cultural background" to a Sardinia-born man who had his girlfriend gang-raped because he feared she might have cheated on him.

"All Italians, and those living in Sardinia particularly, felt insulted and outraged by this German sentence," notes Sabahi. "Yet when similar crimes take place among the Arab immigrants, Italian authorities tend to blame it on Islam, without caring about offending the Muslim community."

The article in full -

Honor Killing by Any Other Name
By Anna Momigliano

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100215/momiglano


February 2, 2010

 

[Zaz]

Poor treatment of women is wide spread However islam has been stigmatised as advocating it when it abhors it

In other countries its called a crime of passion where as if a muslim is associated wid it it suddenly it becomes an honour issue

 

[Jadz]

Yes I do agree with you - the points you noted are highlighted in the article as well.
Ma'Salaama

 

[abdulkhan786]

Honour attack

Why this man have affair with married woman....he must know it would not end and can not be tolerated!!!!

Acid attack victim 'targeted over affair with woman he met on Facebook'
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 8:19 PM on 13th April 2010

Add to My Stories Return to
A Facebook user was disfigured in a revenge-fuelled acid attack over his intimate relationship with a married woman he met online, a court heard today.
Awais Akram, 25, looked like a 'cross between a zombie from a horror movie and the Incredible Hulk' after the assault in July last year, jurors were told.
Mr Akram was left burned and bleeding from his nose and eyes and with flesh hanging off his body, prosecutor David Markham said.
'Acid attack': A court artist's impression of, from left, Mohammed Vakas, Mohammed Adeel and a 17-year-old defendant who cannot be identified, appearing at the Old Bailey
A 'high pitched scream rang out' as he was set upon by a group of men in the early hours of the morning in Leytonstone, east London, the Old Bailey heard.
Danish-born Mr Akram was allegedly targeted after his liaison with Sadia Khatoon was discovered by her husband and family.
It was she who helped to lay a 'deadly trap', said Mr Markham, luring him to the scene of the attack 'whether willingly or under some pressure from those who discovered the relationship'.
Mr Akram was stabbed and beaten as well as having sulphuric acid poured on him during the 'pre-meditated and murderous assault', the court heard.
The victim was left with 47 per cent burns and jurors were shown graphics of the extent of his injuries.
'Those are injuries which transformed his appearance,' Mr Markham said.
It is alleged that Khatoon's brother Mohammed Vakas, 26, and her cousin Mohammed Adeel, 20, planned to kill him 'as an act of revenge' for his relationship with her, and a 17-year-old youth was also recruited to the plot.
Adeel and Vakas, both of Walthamstow, north east London, and the teenager, who cannot be named, deny conspiring with Khatoon and her husband Shakeel Abassi to murder Mr Akram.
Vakas has pleaded guilty to conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm with intent, a charge his two co-defendants deny, jurors were told.
Khatoon and Abassi were last known to be in Pakistan, Mr Markham said.
The court heard that Mr Akram formed an online relationship with British-born Khatoon in March or April last year and they would later meet at her home in Walthamstow while her husband was out.
'The friendship was not platonic,' said Mr Markham. 'There was a degree of physical intimacy between the couple.
'It appears that he and Sadia in particular took some risks in terms of where they met and the amount of calls between them, that the relationship would become known to her husband and her wider family.'
The court heard Mr Akram travelled to Pakistan and got married in May 2009 and said it was not until shortly before that when he learned Khatoon was married.

He later returned to Britain without his wife, who had no visa, and told Khatoon he wanted to go back to Denmark, but she said she wanted to meet up with him in Pakistan and would buy him a ticket, the court heard.

It was arranged that he would stay in a room in Leytonstone for a week before the trip, jurors were told.

In the early hours of July 2 she called him and told him to go to an internet cafe and print out an electronic flight ticket to Pakistan, the court heard, which he did even though a friend who was with him said none were open.

'That proved to be a fateful decision,' said Mr Markham.
She claimed that she was with her mother in Watford but in fact was at a hotel near Heathrow Airport with her husband Abassi at the time, it is alleged.

Mr Akram was on the phone providing a 'running commentary' to her on where he was walking before he 'walked into a trap' and was subjected to a 'savage attack' by a group of men, the court heard.
He saw a man with a mask and thought he was being robbed, and dropped his mobile phone before being struck to the floor and beaten, jurors were told, and he then saw a bottle.

Mr Markham said: 'His attackers tried to pour sulphuric acid down his throat as Mr Akram covered his mouth.
'This was no robbery or attempted robbery. It was a very different order of crime indeed, conducted with an intention to kill.'
A witness had seen four men encircle the victim and one nearby resident heard a 'high-pitched scream'. Another looked out of her window and shouted at them to leave him alone before they ran off, and the victim shuffled away, jurors heard.

Mr Markham said: 'Mr Akram was to be seen by witnesses in the area immediately after the attack seeking help and in a terrible physical state, bleeding and burned with flesh hanging off his upper torso.

'Another witness was to see the victim as he begged for help, with his clothes in tatters and literally falling off him from the acid and blood coming from his nose and eyes and covering his bare chest.

'The witness told police the figure looked like a cross between a zombie from a horror movie and the Incredible Hulk."

The trial was adjourned until tomorrow.

 

[WasimWaqarInzy]

30 years for the two men, and 5-20 depending on the circumstances for the 17 yearold.

 

[khalil1986]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[zimran72]

Why this man have affair with married woman....he must know it would not end and can not be tolerated!!!!

Are you seriously going to make an effort to justify the brutality he had to go through?

 

[desi_boy]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

No they don't!...but as bad as what I'm about to say sounds, the second wrong in this incident could be understood!.....The Husband in this case was right to feel betrayed.....after all the women did betray him.....I don't know what the other two's intentions were though...... We should also understand the fact that we don't live in a world where the husband would've just said "To each his own" and divorced his wife, we live in a world where when one is betrayed so thoroughly one tends to do such things!...Divorcing his wife would've been better for him since it was his wife that betrayed him not the victim of the acid attack as he didn't even know she was married, well at least not until after his own marriage according to the article..... and the worst part of his mistake was that he still wanted to continue the affair otherwise why would he agree to meet her again!? for that alone he deserved some punishment as well as the woman! might not be the one carried out by the accused but at least some form of punishment to both of these individuals for destroying a family!

Are you seriously going to make an effort to justify the brutality he had to go through?

married or not can you justify their affair?

 

[zimran72]

married or not can you justify their affair?

Did I make an attempt to justify the affair? I just believe there are better ways of dealing with adultery than by attempting to kill someone.

I'd like to explain one thing to you very clearly. Your interpretation of the Shariah Law may permit you to commit honour killings/attacks but when you live in England you have to accept their laws and regulations and in England Shariah Law has very little significance in the legal system.

 

[desi_boy]

Did I make an attempt to justify the affair? I just believe there are better ways of dealing with adultery than by attempting to kill someone.

No you didn't justify...... nor did I mean to assume that u did, so apologies if it sounded like that..... but my point was "just like you can't justify the affair neither can you justify the brutality".....that was the whole point of my post above, don't just focus on the on liner I wrote read the above as well!

I'd like to explain one thing to you very clearly. Your interpretation of the Shariah Law may permit you to commit honour killings/attacks but when you live in England you have to accept their laws and regulations and in England Shariah Law has very little significance in the legal system.

oh jeez!!!.......My interpretation of Sharia Law?.......where do you get off assuming that my interpretation of Sharia Law states that you try kill the accused in such a manner?.....I did not even mention the Sharia Law nor did I say anything remotely related to Sharia Law or Islam in general for that matter!.....you should really read my post above (the longer part not just the one liner!)

As for My actual interpretation of the Sharia Law!......I believe you have to have evidence before you accuse anyone..... and when you have evidence of the offense committed then you go to the court of law, you simply do not take law into your hand like they did above otherwise we'd be living in anarchy!......Islam simply does not allow it!.... and in this case even in Islamic Law they'd be tried for attempted murder simply because the defendants simply did not give the accused a chance to defend themselves, which btw they themselves got!

Another point of my post was that we do not live in a very ideal world.....as I explained in an ideal world a husband would just simply give his wife a divorce or in worst case scenario take her to court but since this is not a Utopia that we live in where everything goes the way it should the husband feeling betrayed committed such an act and in that context the actions could be understood but not "justified" just like you can't justify them having an affair!.... oh and don't gimme that BS about "living in England and abiding by their laws in which Sharia has no significance"!.....you are forgetting the fact that despite the laws whether British or Sharia such things still happen in England and by non muslims as well or are you telling me a non-muslim would just tolerate the affair of his wife and not do anything about it!?

 

[Keith]

What the man did was wrong, no question. What the "attackers" did was terrible. There is no justification for such violence.

Such actions can and should never be condoned in any manner.

 

[desi_boy]

What the man did was wrong, no question. What the "attackers" did was terrible. There is no justification for such violence.

Such actions can and should never be condoned in any manner.

How about the woman!?