What's new

[PICTURES] Is Joe Root’s reputation in danger due to Indian propaganda?

mominsaigol said:
Sachin neutralised Warne on spin pitches and only struggled against Mcgrath during that era.
Click to expand...
Slight correction there.

SRT had one bad series against McGrath and that was the tennis elbow series, where he didn't even complete the series as he was not fit. This tennis elbow series was the reason McGrath finally got an edge on SRT

Prior to that SRT avg 47odd vs McGrath while McGrath getting him out a whooping 4 times while at the same time McGrath used to get his bunny Lara almost all the time for fun...
 
Romali_rotti said:
Slight correction there.

SRT had one bad series against McGrath and that was the tennis elbow series, where he didn't even complete the series as he was not fit. This tennis elbow series was the reason McGrath finally got an edge on SRT

Prior to that SRT avg 47odd vs McGrath while McGrath getting him out a whooping 4 times while at the same time McGrath used to get his bunny Lara almost all the time for fun...
Click to expand...
Funny that McGrath rated Lara higher.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Funny that McGrath rated Lara higher.
Click to expand...
That was after the tennis elbow series.

Here have a read of what McGrath said prior to tennis elbow:


Tendulkar 100: Glenn McGrath interview

m.rediff.com

The year 1989 was crucial for me because I had just moved from the country into Sydney to play first-class cricket. That was the time I heard of a teenager called Sachin Tendulkar, who had burst on to the scene and was being annointed as successor to the great Sunil Gavaskar. Three years elapsed, and after a century at Perth, he was being earmarked as the next best thing to Sir Don Bradman.
Australia is a country where they love sportsmen of high quality, and I have no doubt that outside of India, you will find Tendulkar's greatest admirers among my countrymen. His centuries in Sydney and Perth in India's 1991-1992 series, at age 19, ensured that his career would be one that all cricket lovers in Australia would follow closely.

Interestingly, I did not witness either innings, but many of my team mates did swear that it was batsmanship of the highest quality -- high praise for a bloke who had not celebrated his 20th birthday.

By the time I made my international debut Tendulkar was already being counted among the best batsmen in the world. Most bowlers knew that his was the crucial wicket in an Indian batting line-up that boasted of many talented batsmen.

I enjoyed some beginner's luck against the little man when I first bowled against him. It was at Sharjah, in 1994, when I first claimed Tendulkar, who chased a short ball and pulled it straight to mid-wicket, where Mark Taylor took the catch. It was not a brilliant ball but the jubilation among my team mates made me realise it did not matter. When Tendulkar is out, you don't quibble about the means; you just celebrate the end result.

That was the first of many contests we have had. It is interesting to note that every India-Australia match is heralded as a Warne versus Tendulkar duel. This has worked to my advantage because I am away from the spotlight and this has helped me get the champion's wicket on quite a few occasions. However, I have by no means got Tendulkar's number and I think the scoreline of our encounters is 50-50. I might have a slight edge in Australia, but in India Tendulkar is truly unstoppable.

I have never made a secret of the fact that I rate Tendulkar the best batsman in the business. As far as I am concerned he is technically the most sound player I have ever bowled to. Add to that the manner in which he plays, always trying to dominate the bowler. Among his contemporaries, Steve Waugh, Brian Lara and Inzamam-ul Haq are often compared to the little maestro. Each has his trademark, but Tendulkar combines all of their qualities to make him the best of the lot. Steve is all about determination and making the bowler earn his wicket. Inzamam possesses a good eye and his lazy elegance makes him one of the best players to watch. Lara has flamboyance, and when he gets in, he always scores big centuries.

But Tendulkar possesses determination, a good eye and has a very high rate of consistency as far as centuries go. This puts him on top of my list along with Waugh. Mind you, Steve is at the top by virtue of his performances in the last nine years, that is between age 28 and 37. Tendulkar has just entered that phase of his career.

As I have mentioned earlier, Tendulkar and I have had many interesting encounters. Of these, I rate his dismissal at Adelaide as the most controversial one so far. It may be recalled that Tendulkar, anticipating a bouncer, had ducked into a ball that kept low, and was hit on the shoulder. Umpire Daryll Harper had no hesitation in giving the batsman out, lbw. I did feel for Tendulkar because I had meant to bowl a bouncer, but the ball had pitched on an odd spot and kept really low.

Since Tendulkar is not the tallest guy around and because he was not offering a stroke, he was out in my opinion. Had he been standing up, the ball would have crashed into his pads and there would have been no controversy. But the world's greatest batsman had been hit on the shoulder and commentators and journalists debated on the decision for the rest of the tour. The incident became infamous as the shoulder-before-wicket dismissal, but Tendulkar never made a fuss about it and went on to score a century in the next Test.

Another interesting episode was during the India-Australia one-dayer in Kenya during the last ICC Mini World Cup. Tendulkar was really pumped up and was going after me from the start of the innings. For a change I was not doing the talking! The little champion was hitting me all over the place and giving me a verbal dose as well. I remember being hit for two sixes over my head, but what surprised me more was that Tendulkar, who is normally unflappable, gave me quite a mouthful between the two shots. I could tell he was really pumped up and determined have to have a go at me. That was the first and last time I saw him take on a bowler verbally.

Even though we have played a fair bit of each other in the last three years, I have hardly ever spent any time with Tendulkar outside of a cricket field. Like me, he has a son and a daughter though my kids are a little younger. From all accounts, he is a family man like me, who spends every minute he can at home. It's not easy to be a cricket icon in India, where cricketers are idolized more than filmstars are. I can't even start to think how I'd have coped with the kind of attention Tendulkar draws. That is what makes his humility and patience with fans even more admirable.

Tendulkar now has 30 centuries in 99 Tests, which makes it a hundred in a little over every three Tests. Assuming he plays another 70 Tests - that is the bare minimum knowing what the itineraries are like these days - he will score 20 more centuries. It's not just a mathematical deduction that makes me certain he'll get 50 hundreds.

I've bowled to the man in almost all parts of the world and I am convinced that for him the impossible number is attainable.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Funny that McGrath rated Lara higher.
Click to expand...
Cough, cough .... this is Shane Warne -


Former Australian bowler Shane Warne has always spoken fondly about Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara and in his recent Instagram Live video, the former leg-spinner has picked both the batsmen as the greatest to wield the willow in his era. During the Instagram Live session with his fans he said, “There were these two guys, then there was daylight and after that, the rest of the batsmen came.”

Warne said Sachin had the game to ace all the conditions while Lara had the appetite to score down big scores and chase down totals. “If I have to choose any batsman to bat at any conditions, it is a real toss-up between Tendulkar and Lara, but I would just choose Tendulkar,” Warne said.

“If we have to chase 400 runs on the last day, I would definitely pick Lara,” the bowler further added.

Tendulkar played 200 Tests and scored 15,921 runs with an average 53.78 while in 463 ODIs he scored 18,426 runs with an average 44.83. Lara, on the other hand, played 131 longest format games and scored 11,953 runs with an average of 52.88. In 299 ODIs he scored 10,405 runs including 19 centuries and 63 fifties.

During the same session, Warne also named his all-time Test XI and picked Allan Border as the captain of this side. He took to Instagram to name this side and picked all the players with whom he had played during his career. “I am only picking players that I played with that is why David Warner is not going to be a part of the side, he is one of the greatest Australian openers,” Warne said while naming the side on Instagram Live.

Warne’s greatest Australian Test XI: Matthew Hayden, Michael Slater, Ricky Ponting, Mark Waugh, Allan Border (c), Steve Waugh, Adam Gilchrist, Tim May, Jason Gillespie, Glenn McGrath, and Bruce Reid.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hitman said:
Cough, cough .... this is Shane Warne -

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...-of-his-era/story-C3zuEBL3TImyqUl5FWiKjN.html

Former Australian bowler Shane Warne has always spoken fondly about Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara and in his recent Instagram Live video, the former leg-spinner has picked both the batsmen as the greatest to wield the willow in his era. During the Instagram Live session with his fans he said, “There were these two guys, then there was daylight and after that, the rest of the batsmen came.”

Warne said Sachin had the game to ace all the conditions while Lara had the appetite to score down big scores and chase down totals. “If I have to choose any batsman to bat at any conditions, it is a real toss-up between Tendulkar and Lara, but I would just choose Tendulkar,” Warne said.

“If we have to chase 400 runs on the last day, I would definitely pick Lara,” the bowler further added.

Tendulkar played 200 Tests and scored 15,921 runs with an average 53.78 while in 463 ODIs he scored 18,426 runs with an average 44.83. Lara, on the other hand, played 131 longest format games and scored 11,953 runs with an average of 52.88. In 299 ODIs he scored 10,405 runs including 19 centuries and 63 fifties.

During the same session, Warne also named his all-time Test XI and picked Allan Border as the captain of this side. He took to Instagram to name this side and picked all the players with whom he had played during his career. “I am only picking players that I played with that is why David Warner is not going to be a part of the side, he is one of the greatest Australian openers,” Warne said while naming the side on Instagram Live.

Warne’s greatest Australian Test XI: Matthew Hayden, Michael Slater, Ricky Ponting, Mark Waugh, Allan Border (c), Steve Waugh, Adam Gilchrist, Tim May, Jason Gillespie, Glenn McGrath, and Bruce Reid.
Click to expand...
Brian Lara finally got his recognition when SRT was unfit. A fully fit SRT is the second greatest bat bar none...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hitman said:
Cough, cough .... this is Shane Warne -

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...-of-his-era/story-C3zuEBL3TImyqUl5FWiKjN.html

Former Australian bowler Shane Warne has always spoken fondly about Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara and in his recent Instagram Live video, the former leg-spinner has picked both the batsmen as the greatest to wield the willow in his era. During the Instagram Live session with his fans he said, “There were these two guys, then there was daylight and after that, the rest of the batsmen came.”

Warne said Sachin had the game to ace all the conditions while Lara had the appetite to score down big scores and chase down totals. “If I have to choose any batsman to bat at any conditions, it is a real toss-up between Tendulkar and Lara, but I would just choose Tendulkar,” Warne said.

“If we have to chase 400 runs on the last day, I would definitely pick Lara,” the bowler further added.

Tendulkar played 200 Tests and scored 15,921 runs with an average 53.78 while in 463 ODIs he scored 18,426 runs with an average 44.83. Lara, on the other hand, played 131 longest format games and scored 11,953 runs with an average of 52.88. In 299 ODIs he scored 10,405 runs including 19 centuries and 63 fifties.

During the same session, Warne also named his all-time Test XI and picked Allan Border as the captain of this side. He took to Instagram to name this side and picked all the players with whom he had played during his career. “I am only picking players that I played with that is why David Warner is not going to be a part of the side, he is one of the greatest Australian openers,” Warne said while naming the side on Instagram Live.

Warne’s greatest Australian Test XI: Matthew Hayden, Michael Slater, Ricky Ponting, Mark Waugh, Allan Border (c), Steve Waugh, Adam Gilchrist, Tim May, Jason Gillespie, Glenn McGrath, and Bruce Reid.
Click to expand...
That can also be true. Just because McGrath didn't rate him higher doesn't mean Warne can't. Not sure what this brings to the tsble
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DeadlyVenom said:
That can also be true. Just because McGrath didn't rate him higher doesn't mean Warne can't. Not sure what this brings to the tsble
Click to expand...
You brought McGrath's opinion, I brought in Shane Warne's opinion. At the end of the day, you are someone who didn't even watch cricket in the 90's. So it's funny for us 80's kids see the likes of you sing and dance about players you didn't even watch in their prime.
 
Btw I don't buy this before and after injury metric. It's highly subjective. Many players battle injuries and come back after it or struggle via medications.

Michael Clarke for example played for a long time with a dodgy back.

We can only judge players based on what's Infront of us not what ifs.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Btw I don't buy this before and after injury metric. It's highly subjective. Many players battle injuries and come back after it or struggle via medications.

Michael Clarke for example played for a long time with a dodgy back.

We can only judge players based on what's Infront of us not what ifs.
Click to expand...
It's not if.

Before the injury McGrath rated SRT the best


After the Injury McGrath rated Lara more.

quite easy to see one player had a lag after injury, McGrath struck gold as he got SRT on the series when he was first battling tennis elbow.


I am not saying SRT dominated or got on top of McGrath it was 50-50 unlike an ownage like how McGrath was against Lara, Arthurton etc.
 
Even the idea of Joe being unable to perform under pressure is subjective. He has a solid record in Asia.

Tendulkars India were minnow levels away and barely won anything in 90s. Where was the pressure on him? One can argue that he could bat away to his hearts content because it was inconsequential. India weren't going to win anyway.
 
Btw I don't think Lara or Tendulkar would have outperformed Root in these conditions against Nomi Uncle.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Even the idea of Joe being unable to perform under pressure is subjective. He has a solid record in Asia.

Tendulkars India were minnow levels away and barely won anything in 90s. Where was the pressure on him? One can argue that he could bat away to his hearts content because it was inconsequential. India weren't going to win anyway.
Click to expand...
Nahh bruh you lose here.

Ponting couldn't beat SRT - Pakistani fans crushed

Kallis couldnt beat SRT tally - Pakistani fans again crushed.

Last hope is Joe Root and he is looking like a big time fraud can only score on easy wickets - you still have hope though, keep the faith a few more series with flat phatta pancakes like the one Pakistan served for the 1st test and in Eng etc and Root may just crawl past the record 😀 .

But even if Root crawls past the great man's record, if he doesn't get a 100 in Aus, then again that will be a major dent in his legacy...
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Even the idea of Joe being unable to perform under pressure is subjective. He has a solid record in Asia.

Tendulkars India were minnow levels away and barely won anything in 90s. Where was the pressure on him? One can argue that he could bat away to his hearts content because it was inconsequential. India weren't going to win anyway.
Click to expand...
And yet, Brian Lara averaged 47 away from home. Why? Pakistani fans who adopted him as their adopted hero speak of how much of a weak team he had to play in. Yet he averaged merely 47 away from home? Let's go further. Asutralia and South Africa were the toughest places to bat during both of their time. Let's check.

Lara in South Africa - 46.72 (ave); 100's - 2

Tendulkar in South Africa - 46.44 (ave); 100's - 5


Lara in Australia - 41.97 (ave); 100's - 4

Tendulkar in Australia - 53.20 (ave); 100's - 6​
 
Hitman said:
And yet, Brian Lara averaged 47 away from home. Why? Pakistani fans who adopted him as their adopted hero speak of how much of a weak team he has to play in. Yet he averaged merely 47 away from home? Let's go further. Asutralia and South Africa were the toughest places to bat during both of their time. Let's check.

Lara in South Africa - 46.72 (ave); 100's - 2

Tendulkar in South Africa - 46.44 (ave); 100's - 5


Lara in Australia - 41.97 (ave); 100's - 4

Tendulkar in Australia - 53.20 (ave); 100's - 6​
Click to expand...
Checks Lara's record in australia in matches vs McGrath he avgs in the 30s..
 
Hitman said:
I'm still a huge fan of Root. Some Pakistani fans (unlike you) believe that currently Root is the #1 enemy of Indian fans.
Click to expand...
Nikhil_cric said:
Still time in his career left so will wait for the final judgement.

But if Saffers and Aussies have their full strength attacks , he will fail in both places. He's weak against bounce.

And as @Hitman says, I'm actually a fan of Root. He's not enemy #1 in India as people are trying to portray.
Click to expand...
Even if root had scored here I wouldn't put him next to Sachin unless he scored in Australia.

However this series settled the debate. Sachin is still a few leagues ahead of root. No disrespect to root ofcourse. Huge achievement to be put Infront of Sachin if that helps

But Sachin is the winner and I don't think root will ever win. I won't ever forget this test series. Root has to improve that record in aus and has to also prove he can handle spin galore pitches.
 
mominsaigol said:
Even if root had scored here I wouldn't put him next to Sachin unless he scored in Australia.

However this series settled the debate. Sachin is still a few leagues ahead of root. No disrespect to root ofcourse. Huge achievement to be put Infront of Sachin if that helps

But Sachin is the winner and I don't think root will ever win. I won't ever forget this test series. Root has to improve that record in aus and has to also prove he can handle spin galore pitches.
Click to expand...

Also Root should become an ODI ATG, which he is not.
 
No flat track...no party for Joe Root. As I said before he is a FTB and only gets hyped up due to British media and Pak fans who want to see anyone overtaking Sachin. For an Englishmen, Ashes downunder is the most important tour and the fact that he has not got a single century shows that he is a meek player who can't handle tough conditions and high pressure tours. Comparing him with a batsman of Tendulkar's calibre who played all his career under immense pressure and yet stacked those runs in all conditions is a joke.
 
Varun said:
Also Root should become an ODI ATG, which he is not.
Click to expand...
Even if he doesn't, he can be ahead of Sachin in test cricket.

If you put longetivity aside, I rate steve smith 2014-2020 higher then peak Sachin in test cricket.

Sangakara when he wasnt keeping was also > Peak Sachin in test cricket.

However Sachin is > These 2 as both Smith and sanga faded a bit in test after their golden patch and Sachin beat these 2 in longetivity.

But I do believe peak Smith > Peak Sachin in test.

However root isn't their at all. His peak which is current is no where close to Peak Sachin and I don't think he's even better then any version of Sachin excluding certain eras like 2006, elbow injury, early 16 age Sachin in pakistan or very specific events.

2003, 2007 and many other eras Sachin are > peak Root in test.
 
Mamoon said:
So Indians can’t differentiate between predictions and opinions?
Click to expand...
Pakistan to win the world T20 2024 match at New York after india were scoring just 119

Someone's was doing bangra after innings break but getting humiliated after 1 hour . :dw
 
Devadwal said:
Pakistan to win the world T20 2024 match at New York after scoring just 119

Someone's was doing bangra after innings break but getting humiliated after 1 hour . :dw
Click to expand...
I am not always right, but I am right more often than anyone else. This is the difference.

Now keep quiet as I have other people to respond to.
 
Indians can breath a sigh of relief, thanks to the drastic measures taken by Pakistan they’ve prevented Teenda’s record from being broken during the series itself :yk3
 
Romali_rotti said:
Nahh bruh you lose here.

Ponting couldn't beat SRT - Pakistani fans crushed

Kallis couldnt beat SRT tally - Pakistani fans again crushed.

Last hope is Joe Root and he is looking like a big time fraud can only score on easy wickets - you still have hope though, keep the faith a few more series with flat phatta pancakes like the one Pakistan served for the 1st test and in Eng etc and Root may just crawl past the record 😀 .

But even if Root crawls past the great man's record, if he doesn't get a 100 in Aus, then again that will be a major dent in his legacy...
Click to expand...
Another failure in Aus will be a dent for sure given the importance of the Ashes series to English cricket.

In terms of his overall record. He has a better record against India than Pakistan recently so if he does beat Tendulkars record then you guys will also have to put your hands up accept some blame to let such an average player ( in your eyes) hammer your bowlers so badly.
 
1729939855411.png

10 centuries against India is just incredible.

If he does break Tendulkars record this will be why.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
View attachment 147077

10 centuries against India is just incredible.

If he does break Tendulkars record this will be why.
Click to expand...
100+ average in swinging conditions vs GOAT Indian bowling including GOAT Bumrah is even more impressive.

He is India’s father and which means Indians downplaying his greatness as a batsman is really funny.

He is going to break Tendulkar’s record by bashing India more than any other team and this will cause a lot of heartburn for Indians.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Another failure in Aus will be a dent for sure given the importance of the Ashes series to English cricket.

In terms of his overall record. He has a better record against India than Pakistan recently so if he does beat Tendulkars record then you guys will also have to put your hands up accept some blame to let such an average player ( in your eyes) hammer your bowlers so badly.
Click to expand...
Who said he was an avg player ? Not me, saying he enjoys flat wickets doesn't make him an avg player. Root will never be in Tendulkar league that is all I am saying.

Only batsmen who can go past SRT as the 2nd greatest test bat is Steve Smith if he goes past the run tally.
 
"Roots legacy will be tested tomorrow - he has the golden opportunity to prove that he is not a spin novice. England needs another 250 (at least 200) to make a match of this and a lead of 250 will surely with this Test - Root has the chance to prove himself with a century, or at least an 80+" -- MMHS

@MMHS - Yesterday you wrote that and as I was saying, Root has not really scored tough runs when playing away and often goes missing. Flat track or home track, he is very very good. We saw the same trend in this Pak-Eng series. Another series with varrying conditions with exact same output. Some one will point out his great average after few years in this series due to not watching the series, but I have rarely seen him scoring tough way runs.

Spin novice is too harsh, but given his track record on turning tracks, it's just hard for Root to go big in tough situations. I almost fell off my chair after reading a post that Root is the best player of spin to visit Asia in the last 25 years. Got some pushback by posters due to him scoring many cute 50s, but cute 50s doesn't do much in test matches. You got to go big. I will take many SA batsmen in the alst 25 years over Root for playing spin.
 
Well played NZ.. Congratulations to them, India deserve this humiliation for worshipping the likes of Kohli and Sharma.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Btw I don't think Lara or Tendulkar would have outperformed Root in these conditions against Nomi Uncle.
Click to expand...
Lara absolutely murdered Murli in his own backyard even as wickets were tumbling around him in a series whitewash.

And in 99 even if it wasn't on turning pitches he still owned Warne in a drawn series against the Aussie golden era juggernauts. He even had to be dropped for the last test in which they squared the series. Official reason was injury but there were likely other factors.

I think he would have more than a part to play against Sajid and Nomi.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Btw I don't think Lara or Tendulkar would have outperformed Root in these conditions against Nomi Uncle.
Click to expand...
Both have track record of playing great knocks against Murali/Warne on rank turners on 4th/5th day.
 
Ab Fan said:
Well played NZ.. Congratulations to them, India deserve this humiliation for worshipping the likes of Kohli and Sharma.
Click to expand...
Very soon if taken to aus, you'll be saying the exact same about ashwin lol
 
Buffet said:
Both have track record of playing great knocks against Murali/Warne on rank turners on 4th/5th day.
Click to expand...
Which doesn’t guarantee success against someone like Noman. There are countless examples of batsmen doing well against superior bowlers and struggling against inferior ones.
 
Mamoon said:
Which doesn’t guarantee success against someone like Noman. There are countless examples of batsmen doing well against superior bowlers and struggling against inferior ones.
Click to expand...
There is no guarantee in cricket, but we can only go by what Lara/SRT have done in their career.

Batsmen having track record of thrashing Lara/Warne on rank turners on 4th/5th day will have higher chance than some one not having track record.

No guarantee , just probability.
 
Buffet said:
There is no guarantee in cricket, but we can only go by what Lara/SRT have done in their career.

Batsmen having track record of thrashing Lara/Warne on rank turners on 4th/5th day will have higher chance than some one not having track record.

No guarantee , just probability.
Click to expand...
Which is fine, but Indian posters also need to understand that there is no reason for Pakistani fans to be in awe of Tendulkar considering the fact that he was nothing special against Pakistani bowlers in Test cricket.
 
We must be fair and apply the same logic for both SRT and Root.

If Root is being judged for not being able to bat in spin friendly conditions in third/fourth innings then we should apply same filter to Sachin. If we use the same metrics that we are using for other players then Sachin record is very ordinary in 3/4 innings away from home in spin friendly conditions ( used Asia as simple filter for spin friendly).

1729959931667.png
He pasted Sri Lanka but that was before Murali. In matches involving Murali here is his record.

1729960098514.png

So why we have such high standards for Root to perform well away in Asia? It was an impossible situation against a top class spin attack and most batsmen would fail and have failed.
 
@DeadlyVenom has done an amazing job by lowering Indian voices on this forum. It was getting out of hand.

PakPassion turned into IndiaPassion with over-glorification of Indian cricketers and Indian posters freely insulting Pakistan cricket without any consequences.

Things are much different now and some normalcy has been restored with Pakistani supporters finding their voices back. Indian propaganda will not be allowed to prevail on this forum.
 
batandballbattle said:
Lara absolutely murdered Murli in his own backyard even as wickets were tumbling around him in a series whitewash.

And in 99 even if it wasn't on turning pitches he still owned Warne in a drawn series against the Aussie golden era juggernauts. He even had to be dropped for the last test in which they squared the series. Official reason was injury but there were likely other factors.

I think he would have more than a part to play against Sajid and Nomi.
Click to expand...
Talking specifically about the pressure that was being put on Joe Root to stand up and before. How many batsmen stand up and perform on third/fourth innings on a spinning pitch against quality spin away from home. It just doesn't happen in cricket so why so much pressure on Root to prove himself to do it?

He has a solid record in Asia overall but people expected him today to work a miracle to prove himself.

I haven't checked stats but the only man capabble of the job I think is Younis Khan - but then he gets ridiculed as an Asia bully only.
 
Ab Fan said:
Ash has 11 player of series award, way bigger match winner than Ponting lol 😂
Click to expand...
Bro, Player of the series doesn't matter.

Pointing as a cricketer wipes the floor with Ashwin.

Not only does he have more tournament wins then anyone in history, Aka no other captain has 3 wc wins, he orchestrated an entire era of dominance.

Then even after retirement, he and Micheal Clarke built another atg team in 2015.

And besides India being a stain on his career he's performed around the world.

Ashwin is a circus clown in SENA and one of the biggest frauds in India where satner is achieving the same results as he has.

A borderline atg player doesn't need narratives.

To be borderline atg you atleast need dominance in other countries and 5 wicket hauls in SENA conditons.

No one considers a home track bully a borderline atg.

It's why David Warner is considered a poor man's sehwag in test cricket and a certified htb. If it wasn't for t20 cricket and odi cricket, no one would put warmer as an atg or borderline atg.

Unless Warner was Born in India, in which case Warner would have been considered the 2nd coming of bhagwan
 
shaz619 said:
Joe Root will be fine.

But isn’t @Mamoon reputation in tatters, one minute you’re Babar’s mentally challenged prah, next minute you’re giving him a sloppy lolly

Note @mominsaigol @Rana
Click to expand...
Idrc about Mamoon, as for root, Indian propaganda will only come into play if root surpasses Sachin in runs.

Indian propaganda also came into play for root and kohli bur after kohli remained a circus clown in test, Indians just couldn't keep up the facade and had to accept that root is superior in test cricket.

Regardless it isn't that serious. Good Indian fans and posters respect root immensely. It's just certain Indian trolls who think even the likes of Ashwin are better batters then root cause root isn't indian
 
DeadlyVenom said:
If Root is being judged for not being able to bat in spin friendly conditions in third/fourth innings
Click to expand...
Root is not being judged just on 3rd or 4th inning record in Asia. Root has normal habit of not scoring big runs in tough away conditions in general. He did bat in 1st and 2nd inning as well. This Pakistani series simply was continuation of that. No one should hold it against him to not score in just two last test matches. Last two tests were oppurtunity for him to get some tough runs. He was in top class form as well.

Here is Root's compared to his peers in Aus, SA, Ind ( Three toughest place to tour during his career ).

In the last 25 years, no one has played more away tests in these venues except Cook and yet he has gand total of 4 tons in 72 attemps.





1729961009403.png
 
Root will have another opportunity in the next Aus tour. Hope to see him scoring couple of tons.
 
The only thing I infer from the table above is how under appreciated Cook is as a Test opener. A proper legend of the game.
 
Buffet said:
Root is not being judged just on 3rd or 4th inning record in Asia. Root has normal habit of not scoring big runs in tough away conditions in general. He did bat in 1st and 2nd inning as well. This Pakistani series simply was continuation of that. No one should hold it against him to not score in just two last test matches. Last two tests were oppurtunity for him to get some tough runs. He was in top class form as well.

Here is Root's compared to his peers in Aus, SA, Ind ( Three toughest place to tour during his career ).

In the last 25 years, no one has played more away tests in these venues except Cook and yet he has gand total of 4 tons in 72 attemps.





View attachment 147117
Click to expand...

He has the most 50+ scores. It is a solid record overall.
 
Mamoon said:
Joe Root will overtake Tendulkar. Be afraid of my predictions. I see things others don’t.
Click to expand...

DeadlyVenom said:
We must be fair and apply the same logic for both SRT and Root.

If Root is being judged for not being able to bat in spin friendly conditions in third/fourth innings then we should apply same filter to Sachin. If we use the same metrics that we are using for other players then Sachin record is very ordinary in 3/4 innings away from home in spin friendly conditions ( used Asia as simple filter for spin friendly).

View attachment 147115
He pasted Sri Lanka but that was before Murali. In matches involving Murali here is his record.

View attachment 147116

So why we have such high standards for Root to perform well away in Asia? It was an impossible situation against a top class spin attack and most batsmen would fail and have failed.
Click to expand...
Who said about third or fourth innings, lol, did Root do well in first innings?

As @Mamoon has always said, first and second innings are the most important, there is absolutely no reason to remove them from the record.


Root fails on spicy pitches against spin, have seen that both in India and in Pakistan.First, second or third innings isn’t the issue here.

This is comical stats filtering.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Who said about third or fourth innings, lol, did Root do well in first innings?

As @Mamoon has always said, first and second innings are the most important, there is absolutely no reason to remove them from the record.


Root fails on spicy pitches against spin, have seen that both in India and in Pakistan.First, second or third innings isn’t the issue here.

This is comical stats filtering.
Click to expand...
I made a point that even Lara and Tendulkar would have failed against Noman like Root did today.

The filter is to show that nobody would have accomplished what Root was meant to accomplish today.

I'm fine to include all innings in Asia. Root has a solid average across all innings in Asia including 45+ in India with 3 tons.

How will you measure when the pitch was spicy or not or what was pressure or not? Is there a pitch masala meter that you have to measure Joe root?
 
Mamoon said:
The only thing I infer from the table above is how under appreciated Cook is as a Test opener. A proper legend of the game.
Click to expand...
You can also infer that Root does not have skill to go big despite playing 37 tests. 1-2 more big tours and he will start approaching 45-50 tests in these venues. That's more than half entire career of batsmen who have long career. If he ends up with 4-6 tons in near 40-50 tests, I think it's fair to criticize him for that. Does not meant that he is useless batasman, but a big problem for any top class batsman.

Cook was a top class opener who scored big in tough away tours. Amla, Smith etc playing well in tough away tours helped SA to do well in many tough tours. That's why I rate playes who can perform in tough conditions. Look at NZ achievement, won series in India. A whole lot diferent than just doing home track bullying.
 
Root has a solid record averaging 45+ in all countries apart from Australia. But when he scores the pitch is flat and when he doesn't the pitch was spicy and he failed. Ok then.

These type of statistical cutting just doesn't make sense.

In a test match at Egbaston if Joe Root scores then it doesn't count but if Kohli does then it counts. There is somehow pressure on Kohli but not on Root.

If Bumrah takes a wicket it counts as a tough wicket away from home but if Anderson does it doesn't matter because it's home? Even though they are bowling with same ball on the same surface.

Sorry but I don't buy this at all.
 
@mominsaigol @Mamoon

If Anderson picks 75% of his wickets at home and averages 30+ away from home despite being a fast bowler, it is okay he is still an ATG due to dominant performance at home.

But if Ashwin has won 11 player of series award via his sheer dominance at home and other nations such as SL, BD, WI and major contributions in Australia, no it doesn't count. He is not an ATG because he doesn't average below 30 lmao.

The double standards gotta be unreal and that's when knowing the top 5 players with most player of series award are Murali, Ashwin, Imran, Kallis, Hadlee. All of the names except Ashwin in contention to be top 10 cricketers of all-time. But but but Ashwin is a David Warner player only and way behind James Anderson who is a proper #11.

Sorry I don't buy this either.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
He has the most 50+ scores. It is a solid record overall.
Click to expand...

Cute 50s do not help team much. Going big few times helps your team most often. I am not expecting win by batsman. I would expect bowlers to have match changing spells, but batsmen can surely score big to draw the test.

Anderson and Root has been best bowler and batsmen for Eng since Root debuted. World class players. Both have been praised by fans and for right reasons. But Anderson's lack of ability to take 5-fers and Root's lack of ability to score big resulted in Eng losing 70% of tests in SA, Ind and SA after Root debuted.

Pollock is rated lower in second half depsite averaging below 25. Same way, Anderson was averaging below 25 in his best periods and yet couldn't run through batting sides in tough tours. Simialrly, Root average is good, but he can't score big in tough tours.

Top tier players go big few times in tough tours. Anderson retired with volume and good average without going big in tough tours. Let's see what Root does. Hope he has the best series of his life in next tour of Aus.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Root has a solid record averaging 45+ in all countries apart from Australia. But when he scores the pitch is flat and when he doesn't the pitch was spicy and he failed.
Click to expand...

We don't have to do any such analysis because in general we know that Aus, Ind, Eng and SA has been toughest palce to tour for batsmen during Root's career. We can see how many times Root stepped up as compared to his peers. Those tours had all kinds of pitches, flat and spicy.

No one should criticize Root just for the last two tests. It was surely an oppurtunity for him. No one is also saying that Root has been failure. Root is a world class batsman. Criticism is lack of going big because that's what helps your team majority of times. First inning, second inning, third inning or fourth inning does not matter. Help your team by going big in tough tours, score in any inning. Help your team by taking 5-fers in tough tours. Anderson and Root have not done that.
 
Ab Fan said:
Bowlers have advantage in that regards.

Look at top 10 and you will get it assuming you are willing to.
Click to expand...
Tendulkar has one of the worst MOM/MOS ratios even if we filter down to batsmen only.

On the match winner to match loser scale, he falls right in the middle. I won’t call him a match loser but he is not a match winner by any means.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Talking specifically about the pressure that was being put on Joe Root to stand up and before. How many batsmen stand up and perform on third/fourth innings on a spinning pitch against quality spin away from home. It just doesn't happen in cricket so why so much pressure on Root to prove himself to do it?

He has a solid record in Asia overall but people expected him today to work a miracle to prove himself.

I haven't checked stats but the only man capabble of the job I think is Younis Khan - but then he gets ridiculed as an Asia bully only.
Click to expand...
Lara was great at putting pressure back on the opposition even in those kinds of circumstances on aging pitches.

As for Root himself I do think the reaction to his failures in the 2nd/3rd test was a little overboard. Yes of course a lot of it is ribbing/trolling but no way does anyone seriously brand him a HTB/FTB if you look at his records.

YK is Pakistan’s GOAT batsman in my opinion but yes the Asia bully tag is definitely warranted, even though he did have some good innings in England

Mamoon said:
The only thing I infer from the table above is how under appreciated Cook is as a Test opener. A proper legend of the game.
Click to expand...

He is a little underrated due to his less than stellar last two years or so. Not even entirely his fault since his opening partner was changing more than chameleon since Strauss retired, and that instability was likely to catch up to him at some point.

At his peak he was truly fantastic though. MOTS + Top run scorer in India and Australia which opens the debate of whether Root is truly England's best ever bat on runs alone, since he cannot boast that level of dominance against the other big three sides away from home.
 
Buffet said:
You can also infer that Root does not have skill to go big despite playing 37 tests. 1-2 more big tours and he will start approaching 45-50 tests in these venues. That's more than half entire career of batsmen who have long career. If he ends up with 4-6 tons in near 40-50 tests, I think it's fair to criticize him for that. Does not meant that he is useless batasman, but a big problem for any top class batsman.

Cook was a top class opener who scored big in tough away tours. Amla, Smith etc playing well in tough away tours helped SA to do well in many tough tours. That's why I rate playes who can perform in tough conditions. Look at NZ achievement, won series in India. A whole lot diferent than just doing home track bullying.
Click to expand...
There is a lot wrong with fixating on away tours to India, Australia and South Africa.

The classification of tough and easy runs is not that simple. For example, you can get a really good batting surface in Melbourne or Sydney and a vicious turner in Dhaka.

Scoring on a batting wicket in Australia is by no means much harder than scoring on a turning pitch in Bangladesh or Sri Lanka or Pakistan.

Furthermore, away tours aren’t everything. Beating a top team away from home is cancelled out by losing at home.

Would Australia win in India at the expense of losing a home Ashes? Absolutely not. There is a lot of pride associate with not losing at home. There is more to cricket than just winning away from home.

Also, you can get difficult conditions at home as well and there is no reason to devalue those runs. This particularly applies to English and South African batsmen who can face some really difficult conditions at home.

For example, Root dominating the so-called ATG Indian attack led by a so-called ATG Bumrah in swinging conditions in England was one of the best exhibition of high class Test batting. He scored 737 runs when the next high scoring batsman Rohit scored 368. A difference of 369 runs.

It was by no means a lesser effort than scoring big runs in Australia, India or South Africa.

This is where Root is clearly superior to Amla who failed to master home conditions and failed badly vs teams like India and Sri Lanka who didn’t have very good attacks for the better part of his career.

It is also wrong to exclude New Zealand as a tough touring venue and frankly disrespectful to a strong team. Scoring in New Zealand especially in the last 15 odd years when they have had two top class bowlers in Boult and Southee has not been easy at all and so-called GOAT Teams like India learned it the hard way.
 
Buffet said:
Cute 50s do not help team much. Going big few times helps your team most often. I am not expecting win by batsman. I would expect bowlers to have match changing spells, but batsmen can surely score big to draw the test.
Click to expand...

I rarely remember Root being a stone wall and drawing a test for his team depsite having played so many tests in SA, Aus and Ind.

I just took a quick look at his record in drawing tests, it's nothing impressive. 1 ton and 3 fifties in all draws tests in 37 tests played in these three countries.

Now, I am not saying that you take this and start judging entirely on this. But I was making a point that as a batsman you could go big and draw some tests for your team as a batsman.

1729965661773.png
 
Mamoon said:
There is a lot wrong with fixating on away tours to India, Australia and South Africa.

The classification of tough and easy runs is not that simple. For example, you can get a really good batting surface in Melbourne or Sydney and a vicious turner in Dhaka.

Scoring on a batting wicket in Australia is by no means much harder than scoring on a turning pitch in Bangladesh or Sri Lanka or Pakistan.
Click to expand...


I agree that you can get a very good surface in Sydney and rank turner in Sri Lanka, but over a very large sample size, we don't need to come up with very complicated analysis to see where runs have been hard to score for visiting batsmen. Large sample size will include flat tracks and not so flat tracks as well in all venues combined while taking account of quality of bowling unit.

During Root's career, India, Aus and SA has been the toughest place to bat for visiting bastmen.



tough_3_place.jpg
 
Mamoon said:
Also, you can get difficult conditions at home as well and there is no reason to devalue those runs.
Click to expand...

Home conditions taken together are surely easier than away conditions even without going into the toughest 3 place to tour. We can always have tests or even series where home conditions are very hard to bat for a team, but over a long period, all teams find it easier to bat at home.

For example, since 2000

Eng batting unit avg home - 37
Eng batting unit avg away - 31

Aus batting unit avg home - 44
Aus batting unit avg away - 34

Ind batting avg home - 40
Ind batting avg away - 33

SA batting avg home - 36
SA batting avg away - 33


That's the reason, we get lots of home track bullies but rarely see away track bullies in batting and bowling both. Nothing wrong in being home track bullies or weak attack bullies. Every team needs that. But that shouldn't be confused with greatness as top tier. Wasim, McGrath, SRT, Lara, Smith, Steyn .. They all would have been rated much lower if all they did was to perform heavily at home and went missing in tough tours.
 
Buffet said:
I agree that you can get a very good surface in Sydney and rank turner in Sri Lanka, but over a very large sample size, we don't need to come up with very complicated analysis to see where runs have been hard to score for visiting batsmen. Large sample size will include flat tracks and not so flat tracks as well in all venues combined while taking account of quality of bowling unit.

During Root's career, India, Aus and SA has been the toughest place to bat for visiting bastmen.



View attachment 147122
Click to expand...
These are not complicated analysis. These are the realities of cricket that one dimensional analysis such as fixating on specific countries as tough venues often fail to capture.

The table above actually supports the argument that segregating IND/AUS/SA as the three tough venues while others are easy is a myth.

It is interesting that you opted to exclude NZ (probably because Root averages 53 in NZ) as a tough venue when the difference between batting average in AUS and NZ is just 1.84 runs which is absolutely nothing, so there is no logic in declaring AUS as a tough venue and excluding NZ.

In fact, the difference between 3rd placed AUS and 7th placed SL is 4.5 runs which again is not big enough to include AUS as a tough venue and exclude others.

It is obvious that IND and SA have been the toughest place to bat and BD, PAK (until the first Test vs ENG) and Zimbabwe are the easiest.

Apart from this, there isn’t a major difference so AUS doesn’t deserve to be grouped with IND and SA and NZ doesn’t deserve to be excluded.

Moreover, Root averages 47 in IND and SA in a period where touring batsmen are averaging 23, so he is effectively 2x as good as others which reflects his greatness as a batsman.
 
Ab Fan said:
@mominsaigol @Mamoon

If Anderson picks 75% of his wickets at home and averages 30+ away from home despite being a fast bowler, it is okay he is still an ATG due to dominant performance at home.

But if Ashwin has won 11 player of series award via his sheer dominance at home and other nations such as SL, BD, WI and major contributions in Australia, no it doesn't count. He is not an ATG because he doesn't average below 30 lmao.

The double standards gotta be unreal and that's when knowing the top 5 players with most player of series award are Murali, Ashwin, Imran, Kallis, Hadlee. All of the names except Ashwin in contention to be top 10 cricketers of all-time. But but but Ashwin is a David Warner player only and way behind James Anderson who is a proper #11.

Sorry I don't buy this either.
Click to expand...
I haven't even claimed Anderson to be an atg 🤣🤣. I just said he's better then ashwin and so is Lyon.

Lyon makes more sense cause he's a spinner.

James Anderson was always a quantity over quality guy.

He's a terrific bowler but when did I ever say the words

Ashwin sucks because James Anderson is an atg 🤣🤣🤣.

Ashwin is way behind Anderson cause ashwin is rubbish. That's it. Plain and simple lol.

And David Warner despite being a home track bully isn't nearly as bad everywhere else in test as ashwin is in SENA lol
 
Buffet said:
Home conditions taken together are surely easier than away conditions even without going into the toughest 3 place to tour. We can always have tests or even series where home conditions are very hard to bat for a team, but over a long period, all teams find it easier to bat at home.

For example, since 2000

Eng batting unit avg home - 37
Eng batting unit avg away - 31

Aus batting unit avg home - 44
Aus batting unit avg away - 34

Ind batting avg home - 40
Ind batting avg away - 33

SA batting avg home - 36
SA batting avg away - 33


That's the reason, we get lots of home track bullies but rarely see away track bullies in batting and bowling both. Nothing wrong in being home track bullies or weak attack bullies. Every team needs that. But that shouldn't be confused with greatness as top tier. Wasim, McGrath, SRT, Lara, Smith, Steyn .. They all would have been rated much lower if all they did was to perform heavily at home and went missing in tough tours.
Click to expand...
The home averages of ENG and SA shows that there is no reason to downplay big home performances by their batsmen because scoring in these countries are hard.

This is why Root’s 737 runs vs an ATG Indian attack is by no means less significant than scoring big runs in away from home.
 
Ab Fan said:
@mominsaigol @Mamoon

If Anderson picks 75% of his wickets at home and averages 30+ away from home despite being a fast bowler, it is okay he is still an ATG due to dominant performance at home.

But if Ashwin has won 11 player of series award via his sheer dominance at home and other nations such as SL, BD, WI and major contributions in Australia, no it doesn't count. He is not an ATG because he doesn't average below 30 lmao.

The double standards gotta be unreal and that's when knowing the top 5 players with most player of series award are Murali, Ashwin, Imran, Kallis, Hadlee. All of the names except Ashwin in contention to be top 10 cricketers of all-time. But but but Ashwin is a David Warner player only and way behind James Anderson who is a proper #11.

Sorry I don't buy this either.
Click to expand...
There are no parallels between the two. Anderson away from home is a million times better than Ashwin away from home.
 
Mamoon said:
These are not complicated analysis. These are the realities of cricket that one dimensional analysis such as fixating on specific countries as tough venues often fail to capture.

The table above actually supports the argument that segregating IND/AUS/SA as the three tough venues while others are easy is a myth.

It is interesting that you opted to exclude NZ (probably because Root averages 53 in NZ) as a tough venue when the difference between batting average in AUS and NZ is just 1.84 runs which is absolutely nothing, so there is no logic in declaring AUS as a tough venue and excluding NZ.

In fact, the difference between 3rd placed AUS and 7th placed SL is 4.5 runs which again is not big enough to include AUS as a tough venue and exclude others.
Click to expand...
You are confusing team avg with bastmen avg. 4-5 runs differnce is very large for a team. It's not an individual batting or bowling average.

You want to include NZ as well. He just has 6 tons in 88 innings. Here you go with top 5 teams ( leaving out just bottom 3 teams now )

Visitor batsmen against Ind/Aus/SA/Eng/NZ since 2000 with 6 or more tons.

Number of innings - Root near the top so can't complain about not getting enough chance.
Root1.jpg



Number of tons - Root at bottom.

Root2.jpg

I don't have any issue with his average. Mid 40s is not elite level, but a very good average. I have main criticizm with his lack of big scores. 88 innings and just 6 tons. Same things was true for Anderson despite taking lots of 5-fers at home.

Everyone will give credit to Root/Anderson to do well at home, but they have not really scored heavily or ran through batting line ups when playing away. That's what wins or save matches. That's what avoids loss.
 
Mamoon said:
There are no parallels between the two. Anderson away from home is a million times better than Ashwin away from home.
Click to expand...
Some one should start a thread on this, it will be an interesting discussion. That way this thread remains on track.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ab Fan
Joe Root versus Ricky Ponting versus Kumar Sangakkara in Tests
2 3
Replies
175
Views
3K
shamaan
S
Buffet
Joe Root: ‘Winning the Ashes in Australia would mean more than anything’
2 3
Replies
165
Views
2K
Buffet
Buffet
Buffet
Joe Root versus Hashim Amla in the Test format
2
Replies
158
Views
3K
atreus
atreus
S
Is Joe Root a better all rounder than Ben Stokes ?
Replies
17
Views
1K
BouncerGuy
BouncerGuy
FearlessRoar
[EXCLUSIVE] "It took the PCB far too long to decide the venues": David Gower
Replies
9
Views
28K
Kianig89
Kianig89
Back
Top