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1st Test, Lord's : England beat New Zealand by 124 runs

England need to be looking for a couple of wickets before lunch.
 
Man i can listen to sky commentary team all day. What a fine unit they are.
 
Mark Wood - short run up, good pace - just hit 92mph. LBW shout, not out. Decent first over this.
 
Robert said:
KP is never coming back. Forget him.

Otherwise we have one noob (too early to judge him), one Zimbok who averages 50-odd, and the two senior batters who are in indifferent form.

I'm more worried about the lack of a credible spin option.
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Me too, but I suspect that circumstances will change the KP situation. I think you've been lulled into Andrew Strauss' wishful thinking.

I think that Alastair Cook will be gone by the 4th Ashes Test at Trent Bridge, with England 3-0 down. I suspect that either Ballance or Bell will be gone too. The ECB has a 2 Test honeymoon because the 2nd Test is at Lords, but after that it could turn very nasty at Edgbaston, Trent Bridge and The Oval.

If that happens, Andrew Strauss is going to be hanging on by his fingernails. He has bet his own house on Alastair Cook performing as skipper and batsman and I don't think he is capable of either.

I suspect that KP will carry on grinding out runs in the Championship in the expectation of what I've written. And if Cook and Ballance are gone by Edgbaston, he will make it very hard to keep ignoring him.
 
No swing for Anderson today.

Typical Pakistani response: He's lost his swing folks. He never had it, in the first place, was always a seam bowler who got wickets due to the batsmen making mistakes. Rubbish bowler.
 
Unique action from Woods, runs in faster than most pacers today. I like it, it's memorable.
 
Markhor said:
Mark Wood - short run up, good pace - just hit 92mph. LBW shout, not out. Decent first over this.
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While I agree, he is 5 foot 11.5 tall.

That means that he's not tall enough to make it as a fast bowler in modern Test cricket on these flat tracks. It's not going to happen.

In the last 3 decades there has been Malcolm Marshall, Waqar Younis and Dale Steyn and no-one else who have made it as short, skiddy quick bowlers. I don't think that Wood is in that class.
 
Bilal7 said:
No swing for Anderson today.

Typical Pakistani response: He's lost his swing folks. He never had it, in the first place, was always a seam bowler who got wickets due to the batsmen making mistakes. Rubbish bowler.
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Lol the ball just swung.
 
Junaids said:
While I agree, he is 5 foot 11.5 tall.

That means that he's not tall enough to make it as a fast bowler in modern Test cricket on these flat tracks. It's not going to happen.

In the last 3 decades there has been Malcolm Marshall, Waqar Younis and Dale Steyn and no-one else who have made it as short, skiddy quick bowlers. I don't think that Wood is in that class.
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Lol what is this bs? 5 foot 11 is plenty on any track if you can swing the ball.
 
Junaids said:
While I agree, he is 5 foot 11.5 tall.

That means that he's not tall enough to make it as a fast bowler in modern Test cricket on these flat tracks. It's not going to happen.

In the last 3 decades there has been Malcolm Marshall, Waqar Younis and Dale Steyn and no-one else who have made it as short, skiddy quick bowlers. I don't think that Wood is in that class.
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What about Ryan Harris? Looks the same height to me.
 
Bilal7 said:
No swing for Anderson today.

Typical Pakistani response: He's lost his swing folks. He never had it, in the first place, was always a seam bowler who got wickets due to the batsmen making mistakes. Rubbish bowler.
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Jimmy has actually shown plenty of evidence over the years of swinging it and bowling England to many victories in Home Tests at least. Junaid has one example in India on a greentop where he used the conditions to extract movement from the pitch. On helpful pitches Junaid can get good seam movement but he is not a natural swing bowler. Since his injury he has struggled for form and pace. Wouldnt say hes finished if he can rediscover that pace and bowl at 140ks with his previous accuracy then he can be a very good bowler for Pakistan. But he isnt a new ball bowler from what ive seen. He can make a very good first change bowler if he can rediscover his pace. But the current incarnation of him is just cannon fodder for any decent international batsman.
 
Bilal7 said:
No swing for Anderson today.

Typical Pakistani response: He's lost his swing folks. He never had it, in the first place, was always a seam bowler who got wickets due to the batsmen making mistakes. Rubbish bowler.
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Except that we know that's it's an off-day for him (he has still swung a bit) because he's as good as anyone when it comes to swinging the ball. Junaid on the other hand is not a swing bowler, I don't know how long it'll take for you to accept. Just look at his seam position and wrist.
 
Neferpitou said:
Lol what is this bs? 5 foot 11 is plenty on any track if you can swing the ball.
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Not since about 1990, I'm afraid.

Dale Steyn is the only international class quick bowler that short to emerge in those 23 years.

A quick bowler needs more than just swing - pace and lift from a good length are important too. Bowlers shorter than around 6 foot 2 don't get that lift.

It's why Irfan, Wahab and Rahat were such a handful at the World Cup. And why Junaid Khan would not have been, and why he is fading away badly now.
 
Junaid is overrated , he is not a top tire International bowler , at his best can be only good.
 
Statsman said:
6 feet tall isn't tall enough? Oh God.
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It's part of the reason why it has always been obvious that Umesh Yadav will never make it at Test level.

You have to be really, really exceptional nowadays to make it as a Test quick bowler if you're shorter than 6 foot 2.

Think about it - since my comment 20 minutes ago we've come up with Dale Steyn and Ryan Harris in the period 1995-2015.
 
Junaids said:
Not since about 1990, I'm afraid.

Dale Steyn is the only international class quick bowler that short to emerge in those 23 years.

A quick bowler needs more than just swing - pace and lift from a good length are important too. Bowlers shorter than around 6 foot 2 don't get that lift.

It's why Irfan, Wahab and Rahat were such a handful at the World Cup. And why Junaid Khan would not have been, and why he is fading away badly now.
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That depends on how hard you hit the deck. 5'11 is plenty.
 
Neferpitou said:
Lol what is this bs? 5 foot 11 is plenty on any track if you can swing the ball.
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This is from the same "James Taylor should be a jockey" bio-mechanical predictive statistics book that KP was reading from. No point reasoning with these types.

Also, his first over of 92 mph trundling is obviously enough sample size to conclude Wood isn't ever going to be high class.
 
Mamoon said:
Except that we know that's it's an off-day for him (he has still swung a bit) because he's as good as anyone when it comes to swinging the ball. Junaid on the other hand is not a swing bowler, I don't know how long it'll take for you to accept. Just look at his seam position and wrist.
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Not a swing bowler =/= Cannot swing the ball at all. He's been playing in conditions where pace bowling is hard, forget about getting the ball to move as well. Once he starts touring England, New Zealand and South Africa, starting next year, you'll realize how wrong you were.

Adil_94 said:
Jimmy has actually shown plenty of evidence over the years of swinging it and bowling England to many victories in Home Tests at least. Junaid has one example in India on a greentop where he used the conditions to extract movement from the pitch. On helpful pitches Junaid can get good seam movement but he is not a natural swing bowler. Since his injury he has struggled for form and pace. Wouldnt say hes finished if he can rediscover that pace and bowl at 140ks with his previous accuracy then he can be a very good bowler for Pakistan. But he isnt a new ball bowler from what ive seen. He can make a very good first change bowler if he can rediscover his pace. But the current incarnation of him is just cannon fodder for any decent international batsman.
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Junaid, in the helpful conditions he has encountered thus far, has swung the ball and managed to seam it as well. It's isn't just one series, he also swung it in South Africa and has done so whenever a miracle happened in the desert.

He's been injured and suffering from fitness issues throughout 2014. He played what, a handful of matches in the last few months? Give him time, he'll soon get back to his best, which we witnessed during 2013 when he was one of the best pacers in the world, on form. Third highest wicket-taker in ODIs, IIRC.
 
Can't wait for the away tours so that we can put this 'Junaid can swing the ball in helpful conditions' myth to rest. We already got a glimpse of it in the CT.
 
Bilal7 said:
Not a swing bowler =/= Cannot swing the ball at all. He's been playing in conditions where pace bowling is hard, forget about getting the ball to move as well. Once he starts touring England, New Zealand and South Africa, starting next year, you'll realize how wrong you were.



Junaid, in the helpful conditions he has encountered thus far, has swung the ball and managed to seam it as well. It's isn't just one series, he also swung it in South Africa and has done so whenever a miracle happened in the desert.

He's been injured and suffering from fitness issues throughout 2014. He played what, a handful of matches in the last few months? Give him time, he'll soon get back to his best, which we witnessed during 2013 when he was one of the best pacers in the world, on form. Third highest wicket-taker in ODIs, IIRC.
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Junaid is a good reverse swing bowler like many of our bowlers prefers the older ball Wahab is like that too. Thats why Junaid has done better on dead Asian tracks esp in Tests because he can reverse it quite well. But as a new ball bowler i have rarely seen him bowl that many good spells swinging around bar that India spell which was more seam than swing IMO. Its only fair we give him the chance to bowl in England and NZ and if the 2013 Junaid shows up he might do well. But the current incarnation of him would struggle big time and get treated like a club bowler. Hopefully he regains his pace and accuracy but i still dont see him becoming a world class bowler he can become a good bowler in the mould of Gul but i dont think he can be a world class bowler like say Amir.
 
Also, lol as the discussion show says

"5'11 same height as Gough and he was quite a bowler wasn't he?"

Don't count on Junaids changing his views though.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
This is from the same "James Taylor should be a jockey" bio-mechanical predictive statistics book that KP was reading from. No point reasoning with these types.

Also, his first over of 92 mph trundling is obviously enough sample size to conclude Wood isn't ever going to be high class.
Click to expand...

It's perfectly easy for short men to be excellent batsmen (Bradman, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Viswanath).

Perfectly easy for them to be excellent spinners too - think of Mushtaq Ahmed.

The problem is that they face real obstacles to becoming top class quick bowlers. They have to be absolute artists like Marshall, Steyn, Waqar and Harris to succeed at Test level.

I've seen an awful lot more short, skiddy bowlers fail to establish themselves at Test level - [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] will remember England's Paul Jarvis.

I like Mark Wood - he's from Ashington!

But taller fast bowlers can always dry up the flow of runs by cutting back their length and bowling short, whereas shorter ones are too easy to pull and cut when they do that.

And taller fast bowlers can bowl a full length and get substantial lift that leaves the batsman unsure whether to go forward or back. When a shorter bowler bowls that length he gets driven down the ground and if he cuts his length down to get the same bounce he has to bowl so short that the batsman can go straight onto the back foot.

That's why it's so hard to make it as a short fast bowler. You have to be much better to establish yourself as an international fast bowler if you are 5'11 than if you are 6'3. Much, much better.
 
Adil_94 said:
Junaid is a good reverse swing bowler like many of our bowlers prefers the older ball Wahab is like that too. Thats why Junaid has done better on dead Asian tracks esp in Tests because he can reverse it quite well. But as a new ball bowler i have rarely seen him bowl that many good spells swinging around bar that India spell which was more seam than swing IMO. Its only fair we give him the chance to bowl in England and NZ and if the 2013 Junaid shows up he might do well. But the current incarnation of him would struggle big time and get treated like a club bowler. Hopefully he regains his pace and accuracy but i still dont see him becoming a world class bowler he can become a good bowler in the mould of Gul but i dont think he can be a world class bowler like say Amir.
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Gul was not a good test bowler. He'll be a good test bowler, an inferior version of Amir. Regaining his from is crucial, obviously.
 
Junaids said:
It's part of the reason why it has always been obvious that Umesh Yadav will never make it at Test level.

You have to be really, really exceptional nowadays to make it as a Test quick bowler if you're shorter than 6 foot 2.

Think about it - since my comment 20 minutes ago we've come up with Dale Steyn and Ryan Harris in the period 1995-2015.
Click to expand...

Shoaib Akhtar can be added to that list as well I reckon .
 
Any thoughts on why Jimmy got less swing than Boult this morning in cloudy conditions?
 
Mamoon said:
Can't wait for the away tours so that we can put this 'Junaid can swing the ball in helpful conditions' myth to rest. We already got a glimpse of it in the CT.
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We got a glimpse of that in the one innings Junaid bowled, in South Africa. Got a couple of good wickets and helped bowl the Saffers out for 250.

After we got bowled out of 49, we never had a chance to replicate out bowling performance in the second innings.
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] That's a given bud. Every bowler would love to have more bounce.
 
Bilal7 said:
Gul was not a good test bowler. He'll be a good test bowler, an inferior version of Amir. Regaining his from is crucial, obviously.
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Yeah i mean in ODIS Gul up until Mohali was a world class ODI bowler. Since then his loss of form and confidence and also injuries have taken their toll. In Tests i think Junaid will be better than Gul from what ive seen.
 
Junaids said:
Any thoughts on why Jimmy got less swing than Boult this morning in cloudy conditions?
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Getting older, slower and was never an ATG anyways. England should be looking for his replacement.
 
Junaids said:
It's perfectly easy for short men to be excellent batsmen (Bradman, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Viswanath).

Perfectly easy for them to be excellent spinners too - think of Mushtaq Ahmed.

The problem is that they face real obstacles to becoming top class quick bowlers. They have to be absolute artists like Marshall, Steyn, Waqar and Harris to succeed at Test level.

I've seen an awful lot more short, skiddy bowlers fail to establish themselves at Test level - [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] will remember England's Paul Jarvis.

I like Mark Wood - he's from Ashington!

But taller fast bowlers can always dry up the flow of runs by cutting back their length and bowling short, whereas shorter ones are too easy to pull and cut when they do that.

And taller fast bowlers can bowl a full length and get substantial lift that leaves the batsman unsure whether to go forward or back. When a shorter bowler bowls that length he gets driven down the ground and if he cuts his length down to get the same bounce he has to bowl so short that the batsman can go straight onto the back foot.

That's why it's so hard to make it as a short fast bowler. You have to be much better to establish yourself as an international fast bowler if you are 5'11 than if you are 6'3. Much, much better.
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I usually don't agree with you but i have to in this case and btw i think short bowlers should choose spin i remember reading about Nassir Hussain how efficient he was initially at spin but as his height increased it all went down hill.But having said that Tall bowlers arent necessarily good atleast in Indian case.(Venkatesh Prassad,Ishant)
 
Adil_94 said:
Yeah i mean in ODIS Gul up until Mohali was a world class ODI bowler. Since then his loss of form and confidence and also injuries have taken their toll. In Tests i think Junaid will be better than Gul from what ive seen.
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That's what I believe too. His averages will be in the 25-29 range in both formats. Don't think he'll be too successful in T20s because he doesn't have enough variations nor is he a yorker machine like Starc and Malinga.
 
I found Sreesanth to be pretty amazing earlier on with the red ball in his career esp in South Africa but yeah i think the motivation is factor for these bowlers.
Steyn said the same about his height and why its a hurdle.He also mentioned Umesh Yadav alongside him which is funny :P
 
JaDed said:
I usually don't agree with you but i have to in this case and btw i think short bowlers should choose spin i remember reading about Nassir Hussain how efficient he was initially at spin but as his height increased it all went down hill.But having said that Tall bowlers arent necessarily good atleast in Indian case.(Venkatesh Prassad,Ishant)
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You see, I would argue that Ishant Sharma and Venkatesh Prasad are proof that even if you are less than mediocre if you are tall enough you can enjoy some sort of career as a Test quick bowler, because you can bowl a difficult length that shorter bowlers cannot.

Umesh Yadav has been playing international cricket for the same length of time as Trent Boult, yet he has only ever taken 43 wickets at the awful average of 36.93. And watching him is like watching Mohammad Sami. He's got the pace, he's got the movement. But when the batsmen go after him, he hasn't got a length that he can stick to bowling to dry up the flow of runs. Just like Sami.
 
Junaids said:
Any thoughts on why Jimmy got less swing than Boult this morning in cloudy conditions?
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Could be the ball. Even Botham didn't know which ones would swing and which ones would not.

Or maybe it's warmed up, so the air rising off the pitch has lost relative humidity.

He might get it to reverse in forty overs.
 
Junaids said:
Any thoughts on why Jimmy got less swing than Boult this morning in cloudy conditions?
Click to expand...

Could be the ball. Even Botham didn't know which ones would swing and which ones would not.

Or maybe it's warmed up, so the air rising off the pitch has lost relative humidity.

He might get it to reverse in forty overs.
 
Robert said:
Could be the ball. Even Botham didn't know which ones would swing and which ones would not.

Or maybe it's warmed up, so the air rising off the pitch has lost relative humidity.

He might get it to reverse in forty overs.
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Ain't the ball, Stokes and Wood both got it to swing.
 
Both Broad and Anderson need a couple of games to get used to a fuller length. Same story last season, they were bowling back of a length until the Lords game.
 
England need to get rid of all this dead wood. Bell, Anderson and Broad should have gone out with the rest of England's golden generation. They've been good players and the English team had a true aura of invincibility before they got whitewashed in the UAE but they've all regressed in the last few months.

I hope the selectors are looking for their replacements.
 
I'm kinda shocked. Expected 50/3 with Williamson batting to save the follow on and Anderson wafting at thin air.

Apart from Guptill getting out off a no ball, it's been decent.
 
Am I the only one who's wondering when was the last time Broad did anything of note? Maybe I havent followed him closely enough, but I cant recall one exceptional bowling spell of his in the last 8 months in any format, plus his batting is pathetic now
 
Bilal7 said:
England need to get rid of all this dead wood. Bell, Anderson and Broad should have gone out with the rest of England's golden generation. They've been good players and the English team had a true aura of invincibility before they got whitewashed in the UAE but they've all regressed in the last few months.
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Anderson's last 11 tests: 53 wickets, average 20, s/r 46.

I'd rest Broad until he gets back to full fitness and mental focus. Shame that Woakes is crocked.

Let's see what Bell does second dig before we right off the 21-ton man.

Good to see two 90 mph men in this England attack.
 
Since it was whinged about repeatedly yesterday. Perhaps the reason Bmac used his seamers so much is because they are going to have a 2 day break watching NZ bat.
 
Guptill coming good would plug a massive hole. Not very convincing but he has hung in. It helps that Sir Jimmy isn't fully charged up yet.
 
Bilal7 said:
England need to get rid of all this dead wood. Bell, Anderson and Broad should have gone out with the rest of England's golden generation. They've been good players and the English team had a true aura of invincibility before they got whitewashed in the UAE but they've all regressed in the last few months.

I hope the selectors are looking for their replacements.
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lol people always love to bring up that whitewash, of course it's not a problem because it did happened. But it's not the end of England cricket team's a really good form as you said. In fact right after that series they came back to drew the series in SL and came back again to win a test series in India. So yeah Pakistan whitewash didn't bothered them a little, in fact it only made them do something great.
 
Eng needs to try some pie checker to get some wickets like Root.
 
Space Cat said:
Since it was whinged about repeatedly yesterday. Perhaps the reason Bmac used his seamers so much is because they are going to have a 2 day break watching NZ bat.
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It is curious that England aren't getting it to swing as much. Different ball? A bit warmer? But then only Jimmy of these four is a swinger anyway. Shame there is no Gooch or Collingwood type to being on.
 
rooster said:
lol people always love to bring up that whitewash, of course it's not a problem because it did happened. But it's not the end of England cricket team's a really good form as you said. In fact right after that series they came back to drew the series in SL and came back again to win a test series in India. So yeah Pakistan whitewash didn't bothered them a little, in fact it only made them do something great.
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No team gets destroyed by one loss. However, that series stopped England's momentum and they haven't been the same since then

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Bell
Morgan
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Panesar

^ This was one of England's finest lineups but only three players from this remain.
 
Robert said:
It is curious that England aren't getting it to swing as much. Different ball? A bit warmer? But then only Jimmy of these four is a swinger anyway. Shame there is no Gooch or Collingwood type to being on.
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Bell can bowl some medium pace.
 
Bilal7 said:
No team gets destroyed by one loss. However, that series stopped England's momentum and they haven't been the same since then

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Bell
Morgan
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Panesar

^ This was one of England's finest lineups but only three players from this remain.
Click to expand...

No that's not true. They went to SL and drew the series there and then went to India and won the series so convincingly.
 
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